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User:Klaksonn and Category:Wikipedians who support Hezbollah

Today I noticed that Klaksonn (talk • contribs) recreated Category:Wikipedians who support Hezbollah and Template:User_Hezbollah (as Template:User_Hezbollah 2) for the fourth time (since April 2) today which I speedily deleted again. I blocked him for a week, only to relent because I was concerned that I may have overreacted since he hasn't of yet re-added it to his userpage. However, his downright hostility towards me (for example: he has previously accused me of being racist and having double standards merely because I was Australian) and other editors as well as total disregard for policy has exhausted my patience. Now that he has threatened to have me de-opped, I hereby ask other administrators to review his behaviour and send him a strong message that we will not continue to tolerate such inflammatory displays on user pages or his incivility. --  Netsnipe  ►  19:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

You told him on the 2nd to take it to deletion review and not to recreate it. He did it anyway. He also seems quite incivil on the talk page. I don't feel you were in error anywhere on this one. IrishGuy 20:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Recreated category per "Likud Wikipedians", "Yisrael Beytenu Wikipedians", "Kadima Wikipedians" and so on.. _Sonn 20:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I didn't recreate the category for the last time today, as you sadly claim. I recreated it weeks ago and no one seemed to have a problem with it. I bet you knew that. _Sonn 20:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Your rationale is irrelevant. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't a valid argument. You were asked to seek deletion review rather than constantly recreating. You chose to recreate anyway...while making personal attacks and calling Netsnipe a racist. IrishGuy 20:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the above is a valid arguement. My rationale is very relevant. Other categories exist, I don't see why the one I created is inappropriate. _Sonn 21:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I also see you're making it personal by trying to get me blocked for 3RR, reverting edits to an article I created. Very low. _Sonn 21:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

He just broke the 3RR rule. As I have reverted him, someone else should block him. He was warned, he did it anyway. IrishGuy 21:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

How am I "making it personal"? I don't even know you. I read this report and looked at your edit history. IrishGuy 21:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

For the record, it is 5 reverts now. IrishGuy 21:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Reverts to an article I created. I have provided sources, one of which from an American governmental organization, saying IC is one of the finest educational insitutions in the world. I find it normal for this to provoke some jealousy. _Sonn 21:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages:Three-revert rule applies to all articles, whether or not you created them. --Iamunknown 21:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

When one editor was about to break this rule, IrishGuy somehow intervened to get ME blocked for 3RR. _Sonn 21:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I blocked Klaksonn for thirty-six hours for edit-warring. Feel free to continue discussing the Hezbollah template matter, though. -- tariqabjotu 21:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It has also been the case that Klaksonn has been incivil to me in the past, committing a breach of WP:NPA by calling me a racist, and telling me to "Buzz off", after I nominated the template he has recreated, for the first time. Myself, Netsnipe and Klaksonn were in quite a heated debare which resulted in Netsnipe blocking Klaksonn for 24 hours.In this case, and bearing in mind this user has previously been blocked for longer, and warned to behave himself when he came back (which he obviously has NO intention of doing, I would ask these previous blocks to be taken into consideration and for the present 36 hour block to be severely extended. I see no other way of keeping this user under control. Thor Malmjursson 01:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Not all of Kalksonn's contributions are inappropriate. I don't think they warrant an indefblock yet. --Iamunknown 01:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not asking for an indef, but surely his past incivility, bad manners, behaviour and downright disregard for rules and procedures should be enough to get him more than one and a half days "time out". Thor Malmjursson 02:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

So why exactly is this category not allowed? The Behnam 02:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The initial reason the template and associated category were nominated (in the case of my nomination, for speedy (as devisive and inflammatory)) is that Hezbollah is generally viewed almost worldwide as a terrorist organisation involved in illegal activities. In my estimation, if someone were to create ], ], ] or ], they would all get the same treatment. The activity they support is illegal, and therefore could be devisive. Could also start a war with someone creating ]. In short, devisive, inflammatory and plain wrong. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground! Thor Malmjursson 02:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, though it is a slippery slope in both directions. If expressing support for Hezbollah is not acceptable, what political opinion statements are next? Why not scrap all of them anyway? They don't serve the project, but they can negatively affect it. True? The Behnam 02:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

False debate on it's face. This stuff comes up almost exclusively in regard to a couple of contentious geo-political problems. No one complains ' He has the i'm a democrat' userbox, or the GOP userbox, or the Labour party box. No, people complain when someone's got a terrorist group, and then people scream outrage because they secretly support that terrorist group too, but are smart enough to not advertise it. When it's pointed out that blowign up 3 year olds is generally reviled, they scream 'then get rid of all userboxes, you're repressing my freedom'. No, we're going with widespread consensus that 99% of userboxes are fine, and 1% need to be examined and possibly removed. the "I support suicide bombers who blame everything on jews instead of their own lack of self-accountability" Userboxes should be removed and deleted. The 'I support a major party in the politics of my own nation' boxes are fine. No one's complaining about the 'This user is a member of Fatah' Userbox; it's a legit party. (Is there such a box?) ThuranX 03:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Fatah is a legit party!? 68.248.83.41 03:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I'd say it is about as 'legit' as Hamas. Perhaps Hamas is more legitimate from the perspective of political legitimacy, considering the vote. Oh wait, does 'legit' mean acceptable to Israel & friends? I suppose that Fatah is legitimate under that assumption. The Behnam 03:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

More so than Hamas, which has lot more ties to terrorism than Fatah. Even Hamas is more legit than Hezbollah. Both have participated in free elections, both are starting to get major recognition as political parties, not terrorist groups. ThuranX 04:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The user in question was obviously being hostile and as such should be properly dealt with. However, with regards to the larger matter at hand, I have to disagree with some of the users above. Hezbollah is in fact represented in the Lebanese Parliament and as such it does not seem entirely inappropriate for users to believe that category's or infoboxes should be created in "support" or stating their membership in this organization.--Jersey Devil 03:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Jersey Devil, in respect of Klaksonn's behaviour, Hostile is to Understatement, as "Minor tremor" is to the San Francisco Earthquake of 1906! Thor Malmjursson 03:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Question one: how do userboxes supporting even relatively non-controversial political parties benefit the encyclopedia?
Question two: how much time is spent arguing over what does or does not cross the line into the unacceptable?
Of course, I'm not arguing for "fair treatment" of this userbox (userboxes don't have rights) which should be deleted either way. But it's time to delete them all. Not userfy, but delete and remove. If some users leave Misplaced Pages as a result…great. Experience shows that these are often the very same editors who causes other problems in the pursuit of these same opinions; those who are not will accept the removal of contentious material with grace and an eye towards moving forward.
Misplaced Pages is not a forum for self-expression, national, political, religious or otherwise. When new editors visit another editor's userpage and see it filled with that editor's opinions, they got the wrong idea, and who can blame them? It's our collective responsibility for allowing it.Proabivouac 04:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Ban userboxes is your solution? Throw a hissy fit and get rid of userboxes. and then say 'well, anyone who goes wasn't worth keeping?' I think you'll find we'll lose hundreds of editors, who will see that as a major step towards thoroughly anonymizing their hobby. You will not just lose problem editors, you'll lose good editors who like that they can be themselves in their wikipedia presence while helping the project. Once Userboxes are gone, the next logical step will be the elimination of almost all text oon userpages, because someone will see identification of rival college enrollment as offensive, rival careers as belittling, and lists of on wiki accomplishments as elitist. We'll have to switch to numbered ID's, adn then we hit reducto ad nauseum. No one on this project (or nearly zero, there might be three or four odd ducks) wants to have a user number, and not name. Userboxes are fine in the vast majority, those supporting terrorist groups, pedophilia (also under discussion on AN/I), and other anti-social, often criminal behaviors need to go. This 'eliminate em all if I can't have my 'kill all the XYZ's' box is childish. ThuranX 11:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe you meant reductio ad absurdum? —physicq (c) 03:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but ... nauseum, absurdum... either way, the point's the same. Taken too far, everything gets stupid. (and probably sickeningly so.) thanks. ThuranX 03:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Re-read my comment; I was specifically addressing userboxes supporting political parties. We can recognize three categories of userboxes: those which are helpful (e.g., identifying subject expertise, language fluency, admin status, etc.), those which are useless but benign (probably the majority,) and those which are useless and cause pointless strife. The third of these should be eliminated, because there is no compelling argument to keep them.Proabivouac 01:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the vitriol and insult throwing above, fact is that 1) userboxes are not the goal of the wikipedia project. 2) Editors are offended by userboxes saying that a user supports hezbollah, myself for one. I consider myself a moderate, and I consider myself to have an open mind in terms of userboxes. However, Hezbollah is on at least 6 country's designated terrorist organization lists. Hezbollah has a long and well-documented history of conducting terrorist acts. It is polemic, it is designed to incite and inflame, and it is offensive to me as Jewish editor, that someone would be allowed to have a userbox in support of a group that has advocated, quote: ""If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew." and "“if they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”" ⇒ SWATJester 10:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, you know, you're discriminating againt, um, his culture.Proabivouac 11:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It's sad to see Hezbollah, a legitimate resistance movement, being compared to crackheads, pedophiles and actual terrorits, when someone like "Thor Malmjursson" is allowed to have a userpage this disturbingly repulsive. This is a sad day. _Sonn 17:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Compared to actual terrorists.....you mean like the 6 countries that have designated either part or all of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization? Or the European Parliment declaration 2 years ago that recognized "clear evidence" or "terrorist activities" by Hezbollah? Or the AMIA Bombing, the worst terrorist incident in Argentine history, carried out by Hezbollah? Sure. That's legitimate. ⇒ SWATJester 17:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

And yet again, I come under attack... or rather, my choice of design does...Maybe it would be better if I blank my page. Thor Malmjursson 22:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

We can argue here 'till the end of life on earth but saying that is generally viewed almost worldwide as a terrorist organisation involved in illegal activities is erroneous (read Hizbollah article) as one might argue the same thing about the U.S. administration. I followed User:Embargo's case for a long time and eventhough i blocked him for a 24h period (for relating his Hezbollah supporting userbox to Israeli massacres- according to him) i never supported admins' actions toward him forbiding him to use any userbox mentioning Hezbollah. If your motto, guys, is NPOV than apply it thru and be fair. -- FayssalF - 22:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

FayssalF, I agree that userboxes supporting the U.S. administration, or any other political party, should be deleted.Proabivouac 19:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Diyarbakir

• Diyarbakir (talk · contribs)
• Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a battleground

User had been tagging random cities with "Category:Kurdistan" . When the categories were removed as per WP:V and WP:NPOV he reverted them back with an edit summary "revert anti-kurd edit".

I do not believe he is a new user given the nature of the edits. Being as inactive as he is, his/her ability to notice such category removals is also suspicious. Especially on articles where he has no edits which may involve WP:HA.

Although registering as far back as 13 September 2006, user has fewer than 100 edits of which most seems to be voting (keepinging kurdistan), categorizing (adding Kurdistan) or reverting (restoring Kurdistan).

-- Cat 15:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Without making a comment on the sockpuppet issue (I think I side with you on that, it feels like an established editor) I must point out that those are not 'random cities' but cities that are in the region commonly known as Kurdistan... seems obvious they should be tagged as such. I'm not going to wade into this dispute (I honestly think I'm the only uninvolved editor on the entire 'pedia in regards to the kurdistan wars) but you may want to let the edits stand. -M 17:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a content dispute. The user avoids discussion and merely reverts without relying on any kind of sources nor discussion. Entire contribution seems to be revering. Users with similar edit patterns have been banned before such as User:Diyako who also has a history of sockpuppets. WP:V suggests that I should be able to "verify" these issues without relying on someones personal belief system. I have every reason to remove anything that can't be "verifiable" unless evidence to the contrary (verifiable info) is provided. -- Cat 17:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Diyarbakir could be sourced to Turkish Kurdistan specifically, and the 11 provinces the Kurds have in Turkey at The parent Kurdistan page over at GlobalSecurity.org fairly easily. Right wing think tank or not, they do do exhaustive research. -M 17:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The issue is User:Diyarbakir's user conduct. This is ANB/I not the articles/categories talk page. Please take your content related arguments there. Your argument is not inline with Misplaced Pages:Categorization#Some general guidelines #8 -- Cat 18:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It really is. Your argument is that the user is a policy-breaking sock. I'm pointing out that the actions were inline with policy and as such the sock cant be rightfully classed as abusive unless the owners been banned. Want to try again? We can start the conversation over now that we know where each others coming from :) -M 18:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I have said all I have to say. This isn't a content discussion, instead it is a request of admin review. Admin's will decide weather or not to take action. Smudging it with a content dispute is disruptive IMHO. -- Cat 19:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

So now you're accusing AKMask of being "disruptive", for pointing out that the user you've accused of being "suspicious" hasn't made any abusive edits? -- Ben /_HIST 20:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I consider revert wars disruptive yes, thats what Diyarbakir is doing. Locating CfD on 10th edit is more than enough to suspect Diyarbakir to be a sockpuppet. As for AKMask, I do not recall making an accusation. If it looked that way please disregard. That was not the intention. -- Cat 23:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Would an administrator comment on the edit behavior of this user? -- Cat 12:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not paid enough to get involved. Speaking as an Admin, & having looked not only at Diyarbakir's edits, but also such fora including Category talk: Kurdistan (discussion stalled since February, page protected) & Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Kurdistan, that's my comment on this entire conflict -- Diyarbakir, you & Kurdistan. -- llywrch 22:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I am also a volunteer. I see no point in this post. -- Cat 17:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

My point is simple: no warnings, no discussion of this matter on Diyarbakir's Talk page or on the pages I linked to. Add to that silence the fact that some parts of Turkey are considered part of Kurdistan (I'm too lazy to find a cite, but Category:Kurdistan appears to have one or two), & there's enough bad faith for everyone to have a helping. Getting people to settle on which authority to use to justify putting a category tag on some Turkish provinces would be a good place to start -- not coming here & complaining about another editor's contributions. Asking an Admin to get involved at this stage is the equivalent of asking someone to do your homework. Need I say more? -- llywrch 21:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Note: this was concurrently on Misplaced Pages:Community sanction noticeboard#Diyarbakir . -- Ben /_HIST 03:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have posted this at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Diyarbakir and found some interesting additional evidence. -- Cat 13:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Since at this time you're the only person who's posted to that page, there are no checkuser results to consider. There's just your complaint that after you'd filed an MfD on Portal:Kurdistan and CfDs on Kurdistan categories, Diyarbakir (who's been adding Category:Kurdistan tags) opposed the deletions. How is his/her consistent support of Kurdistan topics any more abusive than your consistent attempts to delete them from Misplaced Pages? -- Ben /_HIST 20:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I also note that you filed WP:RFARB#Category:Kurdistan earlier this month, only to have it declined as a content dispute. "Category:Kurdistan" also underlies your present complaint, forum-shopped to these two noticeboards. Please stop trying to use disciplinary procedures as leverage in your content dispute.

Finally, I notice that you have never posted to User talk:Diyarbakir (history), either to try settling your dispute with him/her before bringing it here, or to notify him/her of your bringing this complaint. See the top of this page: "As a courtesy, you should inform other users if they are mentioned in a posting." Here you are in the wrong, Cool Cat. Please take more care with your own behavior. -- Ben /_HIST 21:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to file an RfAr case. Please stop this nonsense. That very "evidence" you point out had been filed by Moby Dick. Arbcom actually reviewed that allegedly disruptive noms mentioned in your evidence. Also you can post this on one location. -- Cat 21:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Diyarbakir = Moby Dick confirmed with the checkuser. Hence I formally request users block as per every remedy on the RFAR case on Moby Dick namely: #Moby Dick banned from certain articles, #Moby Dick prohibited from harassing Cool Cat or Megaman Zero, and #Moby Dick may be blocked for continuing to harass. Blocks shoud be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Moby Dick#Log of blocks and bans. -- Cat 21:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou inappropriate violations

Misou (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)

Multiple warnings (not from myself) on the User's talk page. Seems to be a repeated pattern, the warnings don't seem to do much good. Warnings related to policies: WP:HARASS, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:WQ.

Please see also Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive229#Possible_Tendentious_editing_by_User:Steve_Dufour_and_User:Misou

Relevant troublesome DIFFs:

1. WP:HARASS (revealing user's personal info) -
2. poison dripping off your teeth now again - ,
3. knucklehead like Touretzky - ,
4. You might want to spill some cold water in your face as you must be dreaming - ,
5. PFUI (name of editor) - ,
6. so obviously tainted by anti-Scientology POVs that I could puke - ,
7. If this is all you have to contribute to my request you might as well shut up -
8. Propaganda shit removed. disrelated material goes. Bye2 -
9. Whoever put this in there should be sued by the Scientologists for libel. How blind can you be to leave this in so long? -
10. (Undid revision 120657435 by F.Obstruso. WP:VANDAL!!! You should get shot from water pistols by the partisan squad.) -

Yours, Smee 17:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

And these:

1. This was constructive editing until you - Mr. Know-it-all - showed up here. Don't you have enough problems at home?
2. PS, and your WP:OR statements should go where the sun never shines

I have made an effort not only to warn the user for each violation, but to be civil myself (although he says that I am "cynical"). --Tilman 17:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

User blocked for a week. I'm not a big fan of abusive editors who think they can game the system. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I am particularly disturbed by the editor's behavior cited in reason #1. In the edit summary block he calls out another editor by what he believes to be their real name. He received this information from one Barbara Schwarz, another editor that was banned indefinitely partially because she attempted to do the same thing. Whether or not Ms. Schwarz is a reliable source of information isn't even relevant, but Misou's reporting of what he believes to be the personal information about another editor should be harshly punished. Vivaldi (talk) 04:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have witnessed that almost all the Anti-Scientologists have coloured Misou's discussion's page (See Misou talk page archive) with anti-User propaganda and this was done almost in sequence. Is that all the ambition of some Misplaced Pages admins to blindly favour such tactics ? --Jpierreg 10:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

One week block too long?

An editor, on Misou's talk page, has raised a concern with the length of time for the block. Anyone else want to weigh in? I think it was reasonable, considering the full knowledge the editor had that their behavior was disruptive (specifically, not only had they been warned several times, but they actively engaged the warning editors and responded to the warnings, eliminating any doubt that they could have missed them). EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not support uncivilized comments. However, this does not appear to be a clear cut case of uncivil remarks. Tilman and Misou seem to have diametrically opposed viewpoints. While I do not condone Misou's choice of words, I also feel that Tilman helps set the tone, and thus encourages Misou to react rather than respond. His comments are often blunt, matter of fact and curt. While perhaps technically WP:CIVIL, they do little to encourage compromise and discussion. These two will probably never see eye to eye and be best friends, but I believe that Tilman does very little to reduce the tension.

Immediately after one of the remarks was made, Tilman posted a warning on Misou's page. While perhaps technically proper (I don't know), I felt that it did little to reduce tension. I posted on both users' pages. On Tilman's I posted that I felt it would be better if he let someone else 'warn', rather than giving the appearance of being righteous and increasing tension. On Misou's page, I posted that he was out of line and not helping himself. However, I did not intend to be counted as one of multiple users warning him as I feel that is overstating it.

I have not been on wiki long enough to know what punishment fits what crime. You have my overall views on these two and you are welcome to apply them in whatever manner you see is just. -Peace in God. Lsi john 20:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou has indeed used uncivilized wording in some of his heated edits and responses, making it difficult to defend him, however after reading through the cited violations above, some appear to be a bit overstated. Whether they all qualify for wp:civil is for someone else to decide, however I do recommend reading the history around them before making a long-term decision. Lsi john 21:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not realize that this block came from ANI so I had posted on Misou's talk page and I thank EVula for bringing up my concern here. Irrespective of warnings or discussions, this is Misou's 1st block, right? Then I think 24-hours would have sufficed and, for a stern warning, 48-hours as a maximum. And yes, Misou has risen to bait on occasion but, rather than over-analyze, can we just give him a more reasonable block and move on? That is all. Thanks. --Justanother 22:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm an analyst. I analyze and analyze... But, I agree that a week was harsh. -Peace in God. Lsi john 22:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

To those questioning the length of the block, please look at some of the past discussions about these issues in Misou's archives. User talk:Misou/Archive/Archive-Apr2007 User talk:Misou/section index Anynobody 00:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the length of the block was appropriate considering the frequent instances of violation of wikipedia editing policy. It was fair and just.--Fahrenheit451 01:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Having observed much of the above unfold as it happened, I feel this block (and its length) is appropriate. Robertissimo 05:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Block is inappropriate and reflects taking "side" to anti-editors Misou might be temperamental but be bold and WP:IAR still apply. Overdoing it should be penalized with a 24hr block or 48hrs maximum, if repeated (which it is not). CSI LA 02:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Block is appropriate for user who continually abuses the system and repeatedly disregards the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages. His contempt for Misplaced Pages and its editors is repeatedly shown in his comments and edit summaries. Vivaldi (talk) 04:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

IAR has no bearing on civility; I suggest you re-read the policy before throwing it into a debate about someone's behavior.
Also, please assume good faith; I'm not taking sides in any "side" in anything. EVula // talk // ☯ // 04:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support one week block - per Robertissimo, Fahrenheit451, Vivaldi, and Anynobody. In my opinion, the blocking admin hasd acted correctly and appropriately. There appears to be more than uncivil behavior to justify such a block; specifically the violation of privacy concern with regards to editors' names. The uncivil behavior cited has often occured. Orsini 13:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• This looks valid to me, I endorse the block. _InBC 13:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Throwing myself against the lions here, but I reject the length of the block as inappropriate for a first violation. As a note, I find it unfair and uncivil to come along afterwards (with Misou not even able to comment here) and list out allegedly harmful past acts which have no meaning for the current block - as some editors do it here. That looks like kicking the one already on the ground and marks the quality of treatment Misou got when s/he was still here. COFS 03:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

  The editor got by without any previous blocks by slipping through the cracks. Given the technicality, I see no reason why we should blindly enforce such a narrow-minded process of blocks. Misou had been warned numerous times to become more civil, and he never did. To blindly hold to some arbitrary notion of block duration is silly, in my opinion. EVula // talk // ☯ // 08:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

  My opinion is that "slipping through the cracks" is a rather arbitrary assessment of what happened. How do you know that s/he would not have stopped once warned properly by non-involved editors or an Admin? COFS 21:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

  Uh, possibly because he didn't stop after being warned? Strikes me as pretty strong evidence... EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Soapboxing, possible disruption, possible deletion required

I've been helping out a user who asked for assistance at the Village Pump on DeVry University. I've done my best for the article but I am more of a fixer than an adder to articles. Nevertheless, User:Codeplowed appears to have unusual activity. I've done my best to assume good faith here, but he has been doing things that seem to be quite strange. His first edit was to introduce criticism to the article, and he appears to be a single-purpose account only editing that article. He appears to want a large amount of criticism in the article (). Not to mention harassment (, , etc.).

When I gave him a rough equivalent of {{uw-npa2}} with a little good faith as a warning for it (those and calling people "WikiImpostor"), but I was met with "stupidity out of my talk page". When I tried to give him a little bit of guidance on {{Talkheader}}'s usage, I was met with a revert calling me a Digimon (Digimon, I've been editing these over the past few years but I still know very little about it). Then when I told him not to call me names and notified him of some of my changes he might have missed, I got a riddle: "Just looking into verifiable facts: Digimon is all that is fantasy: it is not a person, it the creation of fantasy this entry is about actual families and their children and their future: Facts" - I only ended up deducing I was a fantasy of some sort. In all these conversations, he removed my comments from the talk page.

Then I think there are bad faith assumptions ("reverting: Check for official information, as interpreted otherwise, Harrasment was done by what it seems now many users/employeers of DeVry do not put yoursel at stake by vandals") and a reluctance to remove {{advertising}} from the article's header (the lack of links on the page makes it sound weird)... Could I get some feedback on how to approach him? x42bn6 Talk 23:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I have to say, calling someone a "Digimon" is a new one on me. I think next time I get in an argument with someone I'll call them a Duel Monster. ^_^ JuJube 00:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Could I get some assistance? Talk:DeVry University and its history (see User:Codeplowed's contributions. He is soapboxing the talk page putting views forward like:

BE BOLD and edit your own behavior, become neutral and better yet objective, weight the evidence do not fabricated the entry for your interests and selfish gains, like keeping your job or feeding your children without concern of all the harm that your actions and decisions are making in the life of our nation, many people that are our real ans infiltrated enemies are helping you because they believe that our system does not work, in this regard they seem to be aiding you and working for/with you but only because their real aim and wants is to destroy our way of living and our reasons and values, our Freedoms and our future minds. By giving false promises, making money out of mediocre and obsolete ans inapplicable knowledge you are hurting our country and it is not the way for our future.

Does this violate WP:CIVIL?

The battleground is the REAL-life of thousands of people that have been victimized by DeVry and are or have been Victims of DeVry and you are part of it by interpreting facts as protecting this malady entitled DeVry Inc. It like protecting Hitler or working for an Institution that enslave people in the sense that you are doing wrong by receiving payments for a system that is causing harm and committing atrocities. What is worst is that you seem not to have the guts to recognize it. Intelligence is the ability to solve problems, to adapt to new situations, DeVry Inc. has taught you to use treachery instead, it seems, nothing to do with manners of well-intentioned individuals, you have exhibited your behavior in here and is documented, yes you can archive it but you can not erased, there are many backups of it, however you can still quit.

And this?

I think he is one of the people who has an agenda against this University. It doesn't fall under WP:COI but I feel this makes him one of the editors that should not be editing the article so aggressively. Help? Thanks. x42bn6 Talk 18:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added the article to my watchlist and I'll participate after I have looked around a while and learned the background, players, etc. It certainly appears to be a messy talk page and the article could certainly use some help but it's not too bad. Codeplowed's extremely long and dense comments on the Talk page are difficult to read and appear to wander off-topic quite a bit but I'm not sure that's a capital offense. --ElKevbo 18:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Codeplowed has also been switching between using his logged-in account and his IP, 24.90.244.160. The only abuse in the past was writing Talk pages in the third person, but I'd consider the recent post on User talk:Mysteryquest sockpuppeting. Vagary 18:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

There now appears to be a non-anonymous puppet: User:DiogenesRex Vagary 19:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Earlier he (well, I'm assuming it's the same person) posted to the conflict of interest noticeboard at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard -- kind of like the equivalent of a change of venue? Should we post links there to the discussions on this board to fill in anyone reading the post on the other board? OtterZero 20:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Related Incident report below: #Disruptive? Perhaps they should be combined into one report? --Parzival418 19:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Take a break and ponder this

I just did some quick math and calculated that the archives of AN/I plus this page total approximately 9,300,000 words, or slightly more than 16 times the length of the English translation of War and Peace. Not admin related, but I thought the admins would get a kick out of it. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 01:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, and how long did it take you to count them all?! :) Ryan Postlethwaite 01:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Half as long as it takes to read War and Peace? Seraphimblade 01:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The obvious next step is to publish AN/I as a book. Or translate it into Russian... --Akhilleus (talk) 01:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

"День на предупреждении администратора" (or "A day on the Administrator's noticeboard", loosely translated), by Tolstoy. ⇒ SWATJester 16:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Silly me, I thought there was an allusion here to Solzhenitsyn's first published book. -- llywrch 17:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The amount of drama would make it an instant success among rings of teenage girls. // Sean William 01:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It was easy - I took archive forty-something and archive 220-something, put them into Microsoft Word, averaged the word counts, and did some multiplication. It took five minutes, which is about .2% of the 42 hours it took me to read War and Peace last semester. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 01:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I always knew people spent more time here instead of here, but that's pretty outrageous! :) – Riana 03:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

As a non-admin, there's not much I can do besides read AN and AN/i. Well, except for newpages patrol. hbdragon88 03:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You know, this is sorta the same theory that you could pick two chapters (out of 365) of the novel and pass the final... :P   Shenme 05:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Some more fodder: there have been 51302 edits to WP:AN, and the request for AN/I times out (see http://vs.aka-online.de/wppagehiststat/). So yeah... we talk a lot. Titoxd 03:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I was able to access the AN/I stats, and I took pictures of the stats page and uploaded them: Image:AN-I edits.png (the main part with the header,) Image:AN-I edits 2.png, Image:AN-I edits 3.png and Image:AN-I edits 4.png. 118080 edits here as of then. Grandmasterka 08:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I forgot the monthly summary: Image:AN-I usage by month.png. This excludes the one edit made by Jayjg back in January 2003, establishing the page. Grandmasterka 08:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg didn't establish the page, the server clock just got messed up. See this diff. Graham87 14:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. I'd strongly suggest increasing the sample and posting the results as a mini-essay in Category:Misplaced Pages statistics (and essay cat), like I did with this.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is here to build a top-10 social networking site and an encyclopedia of policy with one meeeeeeeeeellion rules, guidelines and processes - David Gerard 10:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

User will not stop "fixing" other users' talk page posts

Bart Versieck (talk · contribs) has been warned many, many times, and blocked once already (and very recently) for this, but simply will not stop. Just a day or so after the block expired, he was right back at it, despite repeated promises to stop (or to "try to" stop, whatever that means). I suggest that a considerably more extended block may be in order. User claims it's an obsessive-compulsive disorder problem, but this not plausible as user has been on WP since 2005 but only started doing this last month. User has a very curious history of making good edits and almost as many disruptive ones; his talk page is piled to the metaphorical ceiling with complaints and warnings about almost every conceivable editing transgression, and his responses are uniformly either hostile or mock-obsequious, yet he's also got a number of kudos messages posted to him, and before I was aware of his disruption problems, I'd considered giving him a minor barnstar for some good editing work! See User talk:Bart Versieck#Perpetual problem with editing others posts after many warnings and promises to not do so for consolidated a meta-thread about this editing problem (or this history page if that consolidation has been reverted by the time this is addressed. I thought about filing this at WP:AIV, but this seems more a WP:DE than WP:VANDAL issue, per se. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 03:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, please correct your post on his talk page from 1995 to 2005 or whenever he started (ahh, I'm getting OCD! :)) Anyway, although psychological issues are not a laughing matter when they are true and Misplaced Pages may be tolerant, however, Misplaced Pages cannot indefinitely accommodate such edits. —physicq (c) 04:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Did I really say 1995? "Le-e-et's do the Time Warp aga-a-ain!" Sheesh. I must've been tired, or listening to an old album or something. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 16:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't get this. If people need to correct things, we have endless things to correct. Remember, anyone can edit, which means an endless supply of typos/whatsits/etc. We have pages devoted to lists of recurring nightmares. Trust me, there are dozens of 'desribed/desribes', 'unecessary', 'equivilent', and the like. If that's too easy, look at every 'Alpert' trying to find the ones that should be 'Albert' (they are out there!). And after reading project talk pages, it is marvelously calming to correct the few 'worshiped' or the one 'stronlgy', and then go to bed. (Ahhh! I have OCD!) Shenme 06:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we can stand you lose such an editor (with all the corrections and whatnot). Perhaps some very stern warnings and short blocks when he just can't resist fixing other people's comments would work. A bigger problem, is the misuse of minor edit marking. John Reaves (talk) 07:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely you mean "I don't think we can stand "TO" lose such an editor.....maybe he'll fix it ;) ⇒ SWATJester 16:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think some talk page comment editing is helpful (such as if a message is too incoherent to read) but it looks as if he is taking this way too far. I'd agree with short blocks if this continues. I'd also suggest he put a self-imposed ban on himself from viewing article talk pages if it is getting him to the point of being blocked. VegaDark 07:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree, a ban is absolutely rediculous. Short blocks as needed. Besides, he makes people sound better on talkpages. Buy him a beer as a thank you, dont flip out at him. -M 16:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Certainly no ban; I would never propose that. Why I bring the issue up here is that he's already received a month's worth of "stern warnings" and received at least one "short block". They aren't working. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 16:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty nice that a user is willing to spend time fixing other people's errors, but I agree it gets annoying after a while. He doesn't make major changes anyways, just minor wordings such as "and" -> "plus", so I don't think it's such a big deal? (AQu01rius • Talk) 22:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

See the multiparty discussion on this talk page that I linked to in the first post on this topic. A superfluity of "drive-by edited" users do think it is a big deal, and this behavior is specifically warned against at WP:EQ and even the subject of its own user warning template. While it isn't the same thing as blanking page or inserting defamatory comments in bios of living people, it is still disruptive and needs to be addressed. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 16:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been a big part of the discussions with Bart on this subject (see the summary discussion created on his talk page by SMcCandlish), and have found myself having the same dilemma people are discussing here. I certainly don't think he should be banned, as he does a lot of useful things here, but at the same time I think his actions on talk pages are very disruptive. I'm hoping the short blocks have made an impression -- he doesn't seem to have done it nearly as much in the last week or so. For those who don't think it's a big deal, I agree that it's not a big deal, but it's still a bad thing -- as the discussion on Bart's talk page shows, it's very easy to change the meaning of a comment unintentionally, and it makes many editors uncomfortable that others are seeing something other than exactly what they wrote. Pinball22 20:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Serial abuse of minor edit tag

User:Wnjr has racked up a lengthy user contributions list; with only an insignificant number of exceptions, these edits are almost invariably tagged as being "minor." See

The use of "minor edit" tags is reserved for edits where "only superficial differences exist between the current and previous version: typo corrections, formatting and presentational changes, rearranging of text without modifying content, et cetera. A minor edit is a version that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute." Even a cursory review of recent edits that User:Wnjr has marked as "minor" reveals that the edits are frequently substantive. To pick only two recent examples:

• This edit to George Galloway may have some merits, but the changes it contains are substantive as opposed to the "typo corrections, formatting and presentational changes" connoted by the minor edit tag, and while there is perhaps something to be said for changing the sentence "Galloway has a reputation as a radical left-wing extremist who advocates a Stalinist style redistribution of wealth and extensive nationalisation of large industries" to "Galloway has a reputation as a fiery left-winger and advocates redistribution of wealth," it certainly isn't true that such a change "could never be the subject of a dispute" as the minor edit tag connotes.
• There is, surely, nothing objectionable to adding the name of a version of OSX. But even if that edit "could never be the subject of a dispute" (Which is not certain, since the insertion is unsourced), it is a substantive change, not the sort of "typo corrections, formatting and presentational changes" connoted by the minor edit tag.

Just a few other recent examples of substantive edits mislabeled as "minor edits": .

The point here is not that the changes User:Wnjr are mistagging are necessarily objectionable, but that they are not minor as Wikpedia policy uses that term. These changes are ineluctably substantive, and my understanding of Misplaced Pages policy was that the minor edit tag should never be used for substantive edits. That, I had thought, is the purpose of the minor edit tag: to signal other editors that this edit does not require careful scrutiny.

I provided User:Wnjr with a warning on this point, see , and was met with total denial and hostility. User:Wnjr denies any impropriety in her or his past (mis)use of the minor edit tag, which suggests that he will continue to abuse it. Since user:Wnjr plainly has been and continues to serially abuse the minor edit tag, and since s/he is apparently unresponsive to being warned by a regular user, I would request that the warning be reiterated by an admin, to discourage this ongoing abuse. In the alternative, perhaps an admin could correct me if I have misunderstood the purpose of the minor edit tag.Simon Dodd 14:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

While your concern about the "minor" tag was correct, you made the mistake of combining your message with a totally unnecessary level-3 warning ({{Uw-longterm}}, speaking of "only warning", "vandlism" and "you will be blocked". No wonder the other user reacted with hostility. I'd suggest you go back and apologise. By the way, there's an option in the edit preferences that marks all edits as minor by default, maybe some users think that's a good thing, who knows? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware when I added the secondary tag that {{Uw-longterm}} was a "level-3 warning ... speaking of 'only warning', 'vandlism' and 'you will be blocked.'" At WP:WARN, that tag is described as having the purpose of flagging a "ong term pattern of abuse," which would precisely describe User:Wnjr's record of a long term pattern of abusing the minor edit tag. That's why I added it, and if that isn't {{Uw-longterm}}'s purpose, perhaps WP:WARN should be changed to reflect that? ;) Simon Dodd 15:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on! Pull the other one. Is there something we don't know about here. Some history between you two? Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 15:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Theresa, I'm not sure what part of my comment you're objecting to. I've never used the {{Uw-longterm}} tag before, and I used it in a case that (it seems to me) fell squarely within the kind of behavior that WP:WARN says the tag should be used for: a long-term pattern of abuse. I'm at a total loss for how you can suggest that if User:Wnjr has been abusing the minor edit tag for a long period of time, they have not ipso facto displayed "a long-term pattern of abuse," ex visceribus verborum.

Frankly, per your comment at the user's talk page, if I misused the tag, then yes: it is the tag's fault, or at least the fault of WP:WARN. If this tag shouldn't have been used in this case because the template is needlessly inflammatory as a remedy to the kind of abuse the tag is held out to remedy, then there is self-evidently a mismatch between the behavior WP:WARN says that the tag should be used to flag and the language the template employs to effect that warning. I see only two possible explanations for your doubting my good faith here: Are you denying that WP:WARN says that {{Uw-longterm}} tag is intended to warn a user for a "Long term pattern of abuse," or are you disputing my and Fut.Perf.'s conclusion that User:Wnjr was abusing the minor edit tag?

In any event, I've proposed changes to remedy what is apparently a problem.. Simon Dodd 15:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

What I am objecting to is you use of the word "abuse" in this context. I have personally, on many occasions advised people that they should not use the minor edit button for anything except trivial changes and I have never once, even thought to call a simple error on their part abuse. You were way of of line on this. Please also do not rely on templates. They are simply a shortcut way of saying something. They are not official, and they hold no greater importance than if you simply say something yourself. I hardly ever use templates, and certainly a situation like does not merit the use of a template at all. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Theresa, misusing the minor edit tag once or twice is not abuse, that much we can certainly agree on. But that's a red herring: at issue here isn't terming a single, simple error "abuse," we're talking about serial mislabeling spread over 2+ years. Of 395 edits credited to user:Wnjr, see , virtually all are labeled as minor edits, and a significant fraction of those edits are substantive. That is serial misuse of the tag over a sustained period of time - and yes: when a user is "us wrongly or improperly misus" a tool repeatedly, far beyond the point it's possible to excuse the conduct as simple or isolated mistake, that constitutes abuse, so far as I'm concerned.

And for that matter, even if there is a reasonable argument that this behavior doesn't qualify as abuse (either under the term's plain meaning or as a term of art on WP), with all due respect, that call is far from sufficiently inarguable to support your heavy-handed accusation that I was "way of of line on this." If your only quibble is semantics - i.e., the only issue that you're contending is whether user:Wnjr was serially "abusing" the minor label tag, rather than, perhaps, serially "misusing" or making a constant and repeated error - your conclusion is no more or less reasonable than mine, and while you might certainly disagree with my conclusion, you have no right on the strength of that alone to upbraid me for using a template that purports to be for dealing with serial abuse to flag what is at least arguably serial abuse.

It seems to me that your beef isn't with me, it's with the language of the template. So change the template, or change WP:WARN, but don't start hurling accusations of impropriety or bad faith around just because you disagree on a semantic judgment call. Simon Dodd 17:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I've always thought that when reverting obviously disruptive edits they should be marked as minor because the edit plus the reversion results in no cumulative change to the page, am I wrong here?

Wnjr 16:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

self-evidently a mismatch between the behavior WP:WARN says that the tag should be used to flag and the language the template employs to effect that warning. Oh come on, you're not a dumbass, don't resort to that. If you're going to put a warning, you need to at least read it first. This is rediculous. He probably has the 'mark all edits as minor by default' box accidently checked in his profile. Ever think that instead of a knee-jerk, holier-then-thou decision to place a massively inflammatory warning on someones talk page, you ask nicely on a talkpage? Last time I check, WP:AGF wasn't something you could opt out of. In the future, dont use something till you've read it yourself. Never thought I'd have to actually tell someone that... -M 16:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

How has this become an issue? The tag is described on WP:WARN as being for flagging a "ong term pattern of abuse." No one disputes that much. No one but the user him/herself disputes, on a substantive level, that User:Wnjr had developed a "ong term pattern of abuse." How is it possible that anyone who speaks English as a first language can criticize me for using a tag for the purpose for which it is plainly advertised as existing at WP:WARN? As to whether the template is too strongly-worded, why are you criticizing me for that? Who am I to tell WP how harshly to come down on users determined to qualify for the tag? If you think the tag comes down too hard on a user, change the template, or change WP:WARN to make clear that it is not intended to flag a "ong term pattern of abuse." The only credible basis you can possibly have for criticizing my adding the tag is if it is completely obvious that User:Wnjr's record vis-a-vis the minor edit label does not qualify as a "ong term pattern of abuse" under either the ordinary meaning of those words, or as some WP term of art which I'm unaware exists. See .Simon Dodd 17:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You added a strongly worded warning that you failed to read first! How is this not going to be the issue? Off the top of my head, thats a WP:UCS violation and since the user only has 300 some edits, WP:BITE too. Either it was a mistake for the minor edits, as I pointed out, or a good faith inerpretation of the rules, as the user said (and I might actually side with them, reverting edit wars and vandalism could easily be classed as minor) or its a long term pattern of abuse. 2/3 of those choices dictate you not use that template. And 3/3 (or 1000/1000 or however many reasons for adding warnings there are) dictate that you read it first so you know what it says. Ever wonder how no one whos commented so far says anything at all besides things related to these points? Instead of arguing this and still failing to get it, why not think that maybe, since everyone else feels this way, we might have a point? You could learn something. -M 17:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

How can a user who has been a Wikpedian since January 2, 2005 and who has racked up well in excess of three hundred edits possibly raise a WP:BITE defense? Are you kidding? By that standard, your treatment of me here is out of line and in violation of WP:BITE, since I've only been on WP for three months longer than User:Wnjr! WP:UCS is similarly unavailing; common sense here dictates that if the user qualifies to be warned for serial abuse of the minor edit tag, if WP has a tag specifically intended to flag serial abuse, it should be added. But common sense does not dictate that I should be deciding what level of sanction WP decides to rain down on identified serial abusers. That's the problem with invoking "common sense" - as George Lakoff has pointed out, common sense is not a value-free construct, and what strikes one person as common sense can reasonably strike someone else as totally crazy. See Lakoff, Moral Politics (2002).

I also reject your argument that "2/3 of those choices dictate you not use that template." I didn't choose to use that template - WP did. I didn't write the template, and so far as I know, as a regular user, I have no authority to modify it. That I'm making this point in good faith ought to be underlined by the fact that I've suggested to those who do have authority to change this situation that it ought to be changed. But in the meantime, WP has a tag to warn users who display a pattern of abuse, I identified a user with a pattern of abuse, and accordingly, I tagged that user with the tag WP makes available to report a pattern of abuse. That's all. Some tags have various warning levels, and the reasonable assumption here is that if a tag doesn't have various warning levels, it is to be applied when applicable. Here it was applicable, there were not various warning levels to choose between, so I applied the tag. Whether WP chooses to come down on people so tagged like a ton of bricks or as leniently as can be is absolutely, unequivocally and in no way my call. Your beef is with WP:WARN or the template itself, not me. I followed the rules as I understood them to be, and nothing you're said persuades me that I misunderstood the rules - particularly since it's been found that I was correct in identifying the abuse!Simon Dodd 18:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

How can a user who has been a Wikpedian since January 2, 2005 and who has racked up well in excess of three hundred edits possibly raise a WP:BITE defense? Are you kidding? By that standard, your treatment of me here is out of line and in violation of WP:BITE, since I've only been on WP for three months longer than User:Wnjr!

You have far many more edits. I knew nothing at 300 edits.

But common sense does not dictate that I should be deciding what level of sanction WP decides to rain down on identified serial abusers.

Exactly. So why DID you make a judgement on the level needed? Did Misplaced Pages take over your account and warn this user itself? Is it self aware? You CHOOSE A TAG. You. You choose how to warn this user and how seriously.

That's the problem with invoking "common sense" - as George Lakoff has pointed out, common sense is not a value-free construct, and what strikes one person as common sense can reasonably strike someone else as totally crazy. See Lakoff, Moral Politics (2002).

Ohh, a strawman? for me? I love it.

I also reject your argument that "2/3 of those choices dictate you not use that template." I didn't choose to use that template - WP did.

See my earlier point on how we have not created an encyclopedia that is self aware, can hack your account and post its own warnings.

I didn't write the template, and so far as I know, as a regular user, I have no authority to modify it.

Well then, no one stopped you from reading it did they? You didnt feel the need to possibly review the warning you were to be posting?

That I'm making this point in good faith ought to be underlined by the fact that I've suggested to those who do have authority to change this situation that it ought to be changed.

It doesnt need to be changed, users need to review things. We have a preview button for a reason. Long term abuse is covered by this template, if the template was inappropriate, its not long term abuse.

But in the meantime, WP has a tag to warn users who display a pattern of abuse, I identified a user with a pattern of abuse, and accordingly, I tagged that user with the tag WP makes available to report a pattern of abuse. That's all. Some tags have various warning levels, and the reasonable assumption here is that if a tag doesn't have various warning levels, it is to be applied when applicable. Here it was applicable, there were not various warning levels to choose between, so I applied the tag.

Well, obviously not everyone feels it was appropriate. In fact, no one but you thinks it was appropriate

Whether WP chooses to come down on people so tagged like a ton of bricks or as leniently as can be is absolutely, unequivocally and in no way my call.

Misplaced Pages does not choose anything, as I said above. Its not self aware. Me, you, and others, acting in a community, make decisions and carry them out individually

Your beef is with WP:WARN or the template itself, not me. I followed the rules as I understood them to be, and nothing you're said persuades me that I misunderstood the rules - particularly since it's been found that I was correct in identifying the abuse!

Well then, I might suggest you read the article on consensus and get back to us when your done. -M 18:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You have far many more edits. I knew nothing at 300 edits.

Totally irrelevant. That might have some valence if he'd registered in 2005 and then gone inactive for a couple of years and the three hundred plus edits were all in the last two weeks, but that isn't the case. WP:BITE doesn't define "newcomer" and contents itself with citing Newbie as its premise for what constitutes a "newcomer." That term is invariably understood to mean how new to a community a person is - hence the term, newcomer - not the level of familiarity the average user will have attained having been a member of the community for several years. Here, WP:BITE has no... Uh... bite. ;)

Exactly. So why DID you make a judgement on the level needed? ... You CHOOSE A TAG. You. You choose how to warn this user and how seriously.

Incorrect. The tag is for "Long term pattern of abuse." Unlike, for example, "Vandalism" or "Creating inappropriate pages," where there are several "levels" of warning, permitting a user to "choose how to warn this user and how seriously," i.e. to tailor the level of sanction to the infraction, {{Uw-longterm}} is binary: either there is a "Long term pattern of abuse" or there is not. Here, there was; the choice was either to include the tag with whatever sanction WP deems appropriate, or fail to include a tag that is explicitly directed at the conduct at issue, viz., "Long term pattern of abuse."

You didnt feel the need to possibly review the warning you were to be posting?

No, because as I keep explaining to you and you keep failing to grasp, {{Uw-longterm}} is binary! There are not several levels of sanction available; its criterion is either met or not. user:Wnjr's conduct met its criterion. What sanction follows from {{Uw-longterm}}'s criterion being met are the concern of people authorized to make that determination - which, so far as I'm aware, does not include regular users. If you're going to tell me that in fact, I can change the template, say so explicitly, and I'll go change it right now, and cite your reply when I get shot down.

It doesnt need to be changed, users need to review things. We have a preview button for a reason. Long term abuse is covered by this template, if the template was inappropriate, its not long term abuse.

What? That doesn't make any sense. Where is that written in WP policy? If the sentence for murder is death, and I think that's too harsh, can I reduce the sentence to manslaughter, notwithstanding that the crime was, in fact, murder? This is the template that warns a user, in such terms as WP has determined are appropriate, that they have been committing long-term abuse; if they have been comitting long-term abuse, then that is the template that I should add, notwithstanding that I might personally think it's a little harsh. To make the verdict rest on the sentence turns the process inside out!

Well then, I might suggest you read the article on consensus and get back to us when your done.

Might I suggest that you read WP:AGF and reconsider your wholly-uncalled for belligerent attitude towards me here? Simon Dodd 19:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, absurdity factor has kicked in. Simon, smile, accept that you posted a template without reading it, which was a mistake, and move on. In the future, make sure you read the content of anything you transclude (template used) because the title on it may be something that can mean multiple things, and likely not the one you want. As with many things in life, you're responsible for the content you use as well as the cover of it. You also get further by nothing trying to say "Its not my fault because of this tiny detail here." Mistakes happen, I've collected quite a few. Accept, apologize, move on. --Auto 19:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Auto, it's not in dispute that I posted the template without reading it. What's in dispute is whether that's a mistake when the conduct being warned for by the template falls squarely within the purpose of the tag and there are not multiple levels of sanction available.

It would unquestionably have been a mistake to not read the template had I been tagging user:Wnjr for, say, vandalism, because (assuming arguendo that s/he was, in fact, vandalising) there are five different levels of sanction available for that tag. S/he has to be tagged with one of them, of course, but I have to determine what level of sanction I use, and since that requires matching the harshness of the sanction to the infraction, obviously the template has to be reviewed. But that is not the case here! {{Uw-longterm}} has a binary criterion; there either is or isn't a long term pattern of abuse. There was here. It's therefore totally irrelevant how harsh the sanction is; what matters is whether the conduct the tag is for has ocurred. That isn't a "tiny detail." My understanding is that if someone commits an infraction to which multiple warning tags can apply, all relevant tags must be applied. Is that not the case?

I've made a lot of mistakes on WP, and if I thought this was one of them, I'd apologize, but I can't see how this is one of them. With all due respect, WP:WARN says that tag is for a certain kind of conduct, the conduct being warned of had occurred, and since there is no countervailing WP policy of which I'm aware, how was this a mistake? If an admin enforced the 3RR rule notwithstanding that they thought it was too harsh, would that be a mistake too? Simon Dodd 19:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Mmm... love me some wikilawyering in the morning. Dont be a slave to policy if policy is stupid (its not in this case, you you seem to think it is.) The next time that 'Misplaced Pages makes you put a warning' and it doesn't fit, the Ignore All Rules. Dont worry, you wont get yelled at. -M 02:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Let me get this right: Misplaced Pages has a policy that says that users should ignore all other policy whenever they feel as if doing so will, in their view, "improv or maintain Misplaced Pages"? That is, without doubt, the most retarded thing I have ever seen in my life. Without any exaggeration. That beats everything that's ever been on America's Funniest Home Videos. That beats over a decade of Dilbert strips. From now on, any time anyone cites NPOV or NOR at me, I'm going to cite WP:IAR at them in service of "improving maintaining Misplaced Pages." How does one propose deleting a policy? Good Lord!

And for that matter, while I was about to spend several minutes castigating this concept of "wikilawyering" -- which is virtually incoherent, btw; where is the policy's "spirit" written down? Of course, by definition, it isn't! Thus, how can a user possibly adhere their conduct to a rule that they have no possible way of knowing, and how can it possibly be consistently applied by admins when there is no authoritative statement of what the policy really means? A policy is its text. If it has a spirit, that's fine, and polite notes (which aren't what you and other admins have given me here, better described as insults abuse and threats) that the text may say "this" but the common understanding is "that," but it should only be the text that can serve as a basis for forming an admin lynch mob, which is what y'all have done to me on this page -- but really there's no point: You say I'm "wikilawyering," I say I'm trying to improve Misplaced Pages, so I cite WP:IAR in my defense!

And since Theresa's clearly established that y'all think I lack any comprehension of WP policy (apparently I'm dumb enough to think that the rules mean what the rules say; gee, what was I thinking) and template usage (same), and given that you seem to think (per notes above) that WP:BITE applies based on knowledge not any kind of temporal test, please conform any reply to WP:BITE.Simon Dodd 14:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

At this point, I shall help you -- its a mistake. The minor tag is a minor issue, and not abusive by this user, or vandalism. There is no indication to believe that the user was acting with knowledge that somebody would be upset at what he was doing. This is what uw-1 stuff is for, or perhaps better yet nice custom written thing saying "I think you should have done... this is why..." I don't think you'll find anything further in continuing this discussion. --Auto 20:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not serial abuse if it's not something the editor has been repeatedly warned about. --OnoremDil 02:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Is "serial" defined anywhere in Misplaced Pages policy? No? Then its ordinary meaning applies. "Serial" in this sense means "effecting or producing a series; sequential," as in "serial killer." Hence the term serial. If something is abuse and it continues for a period of time, it is by definition serial abuse.Simon Dodd 13:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

OK...fine. Try assuming good faith and realize that if the user doesn't know that it is abuse, they aren't going to worry about doing it repeatedly. The abuse part is why it's my opinion that it wasn't serial abuse. If the user is not warned that what they are doing is wrong, there's no reason for them to know what they are doing is wrong, and I can understand a user being upset after you basically accusing them of long-term vandalism because you didn't check the template. I would think templates for "serial abuse" would be used after a user does something, is warned, does it again, is warned again, etc. I don't doubt at all that your original message was made in good faith, but when the discussion escalated on his talk page, the right thing to do would have been to apologize, not bring it here...but that's just my opinion. --OnoremDil 19:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• See discussion here and pages linked therein. This problem has arisen because of poorly-drafted WP policy, and I have taken steps to remedy the issue. Simon Dodd 13:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Jeanclauduc

Jeanclauduc (talk · contribs · block log) has stated that he's Jean-Claude Ducasse, CTO of MDS International . He's been involved in edit warring in both MDS International (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and a company he's in legal disputes with, MDS America (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). His English appears to be poor, so someone fluent in French would be helpful in determining if he's even trying to understand the cautions and warnings he's received, and what he means by his many comments that make little sense. Language problems aside, he's repeatedly made legal threats against editors and Misplaced Pages .

MDS International is currently full-protected, and there is a COI/N. Ronz 15:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll try that. But please guys keep calm and don't escalate the issue further. -- FayssalF - 15:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This guy seems rightly pissed off at (what was) the contents of the article, which looked like a concerted smear campaign against the company, based on an anonymous attack site and original research. Though he is talking about lawyers, there are other editors whose edits are of concern. 76.109.17.236 (talk · contribs) and WizardOfWor (talk · contribs) seem to be making some troubling edits, as well as most of the warnings. It seems Jeanclauduc is not the only one with a conflict of interest. -- zzuuzz 16:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

While waiting for Jean Claude's response to my message, i share teh same opinion w/ zzuuzz. -- FayssalF - 16:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, if Jeanclauduc backs down and explains himself. The article is protected in a version that he should be happy with. --Ronz 17:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I am much more concerned about the edits of WizardOfWor (talk · contribs) and 76.109.17.236 (talk · contribs) than those of Jean. I am not sure how much you are aware of the implication of the information posted at the article on wikipedia. But, i'll wait and see. -- FayssalF - 17:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but I thought it was priority to get help with Jeanclauduc's legal threats and poor English. Sorry if my focus on him was inappropriate. --Ronz 18:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

No worries. Hoping to hear from his concerns first as he's the claiming party. We'll deal w/ the rest later on. -- FayssalF - 18:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for your help on this, Fayssal. It's a little hard to get to the root of this when both sides apparently have an agenda and I can't make heads or tails out of some of the statements. One other question: can you find a corresponding article on fr.wikipedia.org? I'm afraid that my high school French from 20 years ago did not get me very far. Kuru 01:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't find any article on MDS International in the French Misplaced Pages. EdJohnston 01:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Nothing except the Tunisian political party Mouvement des Démocrates Socialistes. -- FayssalF - 13:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Update

I received a message from User:Jeanclauduc but i needed some more clarifications. So probably i'll get answers this afternoon. I also contacted admin BD2412 who is an intellectual property lawyer to have his opinion. -- FayssalF - 13:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

72.19.4.235 (talk · contribs · block log) claims to be Kirk Kirkpatrick, CEO MDS America . --Ronz 20:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Rbj

User:Rbj has been chronically incivil and insulting toward anyone who disagrees with him at Talk:Intelligent design. This is after multiple recent warnings there and at his talk page and a block 1 month ago for personal attacks there. People at Talk ID are becoming exasperated and Rbj just doesn't seem to get it, so would some admins here take a look at his history and recent comments there and his talk page and take whatever action is warranted and that will get him to participate positively. Odd nature 21:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I took a careful look at the relevant edit history. The problem is that Rbj is strongly opinionated but also highly intelligent and committed to NPOV. He tends to lash out too strongly against those who disagree with him. The recent edit does not merit a block because, as Rbj defended himself, he attacked the opinion as "made-up" rather than attacking the person as a "liar", which he has done in the past. I'm not going to take action, but the most that could be done is a warning against personal attacks, including labeling opinions as POV, with a block to follow if the warning goes unheeded. YechielMan 02:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Whether he's actually committed to NPOV is not the issue (and neither is it a given), his civility is. He's been warned many times already and blocked once as well and is still is at it. Something more needs to be done please. Odd nature 19:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

And he doesn't let up. Looks like his current target is User:Orangemarlin. But, since I won't touch him, and other admins seem uncertain, perhaps you should elaborate clearly on what it is you think needs to happen. — coelacan — 20:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This is perennial. Doesn't seem to be related to the ID page, but this recent alteration of another's user page was pretty incivil. Over on Talk:ID, calling other editors' work "dog-shit" and brandishing the "you guys think your own shit don't stink" line again. And waving around the threat of meatpuppetry again. And calling another editors' arguments "bullshit". I didn't dig any further than that. No, he's not pleasant to work with. I've had too many disagreements with him in the past to step in, myself. I'm would not be able to act as a disinterested party. But I agree you shouldn't have to put up with this... — coelacan — 02:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive?

Related: #Soapboxing, possible disruption, possible deletion required

I've been in some conflict with User:Codeplowed who insists on putting a soapbox-like "rant" on the talk page () of Talk:DeVry University that I deem as partially a personal attack, partially uncivil, partially bad-faith and mostly bad because some comments on there are possibly going to cause problems if left public (the comment is far from nice and is all unsubstantiated).

After a little explanation on why I thought it was bad and why I removed it (I've removed it something like 3 times), he then, I think, tried to put a level 3 warning on me for vandalism (User talk:x42bn6#Vandalism Warming (sic), possibly taking offense to me removing his comments) and then a level 4 warning for inappropriately using talk pages (User talk:x42bn6#last warning) (!?).

I am loathe to report him to, say, WP:CN or WP:AIV because I think it's inappropriate for me to "gain the upper hand by getting him banned", so I was hoping someone could give his/her thoughts. x42bn6 Talk 23:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oh yeah, that's the Digimon guy. He's leaving "final warnings" on people's user pages. JuJube 00:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
• I concur that User:Codeplowed has been significanltly disruptive for at least several days to Talk:DeVry University. I first encountered him when trying to help out with a report at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts#Edit War Brewing on DeVry University. I have no agenda with that article and only showed up to help out. At first the editors at that page responded well and there was improvement (it's documented in the Wikiquette report). Then User:Codeplowed started re-inserting archived material and posting long rambling POV essays with bad formatting at various places on the talk page, and removing the talkpage header boxes repeatedly. He did not discuss constructively with any other editor at any time. He appears completely unresponsive to friendly comments. After a few days of watching the disruptions, I posted a warning at the top of the article talk page to respect the guidelines and a warning on his talk page to stop the vandalism. He responded aggressively, re-inserting the archived essays, inserting some nonesense into the middle of the page, and then began posting vandalism warnings with templates and long essays on my user page (not my talk page), and on other users pages as well. I don't have the diffs handy right now, but if you need them let me know and I'll find them. I request that this user be either strongly warned by an administrator, or blocked for a short time so he can get the message. He is apprently not at all interested in any feedback from ordinary editors. --Parzival418 00:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
• There was a new comment added to the above noted related report today at #Soapboxing, possible disruption, possible deletion required. It seems it would make sense to combine these two reports into one since they are pretty much the same incident. I don't know if that is appropriate under the rules of this noticeboard, so I am posting the suggestion here rather than proceeding to combine them myself. --Parzival418 19:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Could I get more help on this? I suspect User:DiogenesRex is a sockpuppet of User:Codeplowed. While the latter has ceased action about Misplaced Pages, the former seems to replicating the latter's actions. He listed User:Parzival418 on AIV. Then there is a comment at WP:COIN#DeVry Inc. Vandals and Spammers. There is possibly one user with a conflict of interest but this user is sticking to the talk page as much as possible, and I doubt the rest of us have a conflict of interest - but throwing it around is still harassment. x42bn6 Talk 21:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Logging IRC

My understanding is that Misplaced Pages IRC is not to be logged or redistributed. It seems one user may have posted such a log to Conservapedia. He says he had permission but when I inquired as to details, he deleted the entire discussion thread. There may be a perfectly good explanation but as an occasional IRC participant I'd appreciate some clarification. Is prior notice given when IRC is logged? Thanks - Raymond Arritt 00:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Yes. Haven't those who have violated the prohibition in the past been blocked? --Iamunknown 00:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  Blocked? I can see where they would be banned from IRC, but blocking seems severe for an off-wiki offense. Besides, blocking Ed Poor wouldn't accomplish anything. Sean William 00:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  For the record, I was there for all that, he got permission from the people, and the no-logging policy exempts relevent cuts with unrelated comments removed and the permission of participants. -M 01:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  OK, thanks for the clarification. Good to know how these things work. Raymond Arritt 01:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  Sean, I was thinking of someone (Karmafist maybe?) who was blocked for posting IRC logs. I don't have any diffs or block logs. Sorry. --Iamunknown 01:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• If you don't want to risk having your messages logged, you probably shouldn't be using IRC in the first place. -Hit bull, win steak 13:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  It's one thing to protect ones personal data. It's an entirely different question what Misplaced Pages officially tolerates.--Stephan Schulz 12:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt Yesterday, 9:34pm Post #6

"This is stupid. Hive2 is going back up if those links aren't restored in Michael Snow's article within 24 hours." WAS 4.250 00:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

He's grasping at straws for leverage. Sean William 00:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't really pay it any mind, there wasn't really any hope that whole situation could have been resolved so easily anyway. To do something like that over just a couple of links, though...yeah, I would agree with Sean. --Coredesat 01:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought links to attack sites were disparaged. Corvus cornix 01:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

They are, although it's not policy yet. --Coredesat 01:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:BADSITES is not likely to become policy, the last attempt ended in a train wreck. — MichaelLinnear 03:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Although the word generally used is "deprecated" rather than "disparaged". (grin) -- Ben /_HIST 03:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I knew that.  :) Corvus cornix 03:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I think they should be returned but have been threatened with blocking if I do so myself . And as someone outed by HM when I absolutely do not want to be outed re my name and location I feel stuck between hell and high water. Any helpful suggestions? SqueakBox 03:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is baldfaced extortion. It puts Brandt in an even worse light than he's otherwise had. I sympathize with Squeakbox. Through no special wrongdoing admins are treated like blackmail victims and threatened with exposure and harassment if demands are not met. Brandt is welcome to sue the Wikimedia Foundation if he wants to, but to use the identities, home addresses, photographs and other personal information of community members as leverage in a dispute is unethical and possibly even illegal. -Will Beback · † · 08:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is that article even there in the first place? Even putting aside WP:DENY, do we really need to gloat over blocked users? --BigDT 12:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Legitimate Misplaced Pages news story, had a major impact on last week at Misplaced Pages, may well be important in further relations with Brandt, who is one of our major critics. --AnonEMouse 13:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Irrespective of whether Attack sites has a "policy" tag on it, attack websites may be removed from Misplaced Pages. Silly demands should of course be ignored. --Tony Sidaway 14:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Brandt is going to do what he wants with his hive2 page, no matter what anyone else does, while justifying his actions in whatever way suits him. I understand Squeakbox's reasoning, but we do best to take the link out and move on. Tom Harrison 14:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I was extremely supportive of his unblock, because I felt the need to heal for all, as Jimbo did. I still knew that Brandt was a kook, but thought we could all recconcile. Now I realize I was had, and Brandt's not just a kook, but on a level only shared with Time cube. Ignore the threats, dont let him write our policy, and he can sue if he wants. Have fun with that. I don't know, but it seems most of his claims would be laughed out of the courtroom. -M 18:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

DON'T knock Time cube..... it's serious businesses. ⇒ SWATJester 22:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Hivemind's up again. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Not surprised at all, really, it was likely a foregone conclusion either way. --Coredesat 01:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Eblem

This user has requested the speedy deletion of his talk page after having his unblock request declined. What strikes me is that his page was also deleted yesterday. Could an admin review him and check whether or not yesterday's deletion was for the same reason and if this user is just trying to remove his vandalism history? -- lucasbfr 11:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yesterday's deletion was to remove vandalism warnings - not sure I agree with that. – Riana 11:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I put hangon on the page to point the patrolling admins to this thread. -- lucasbfr 13:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it was not to remove vandalism warnings. As your post demonstrates, admins have access to the history - there's nothing hidden and no hidden agenda.

I am trying to zero the page out so it is not posted on so I can exit Misplaced Pages altogether. That's all that's going on. I couldn't make the request until the block lifted since I couldn't edit it. I then had a post about a request I hadn't even made inserted by Luna Santin.

The sooner I get this page deleted, the sooner I'm history.

Eblem 16:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

moved Eblem's comment to the right section. -- lucasbfr 16:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Crap, I removed a part of the reply by mistake... Putting it back! Sorry... -- lucasbfr 17:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I've protected and blanked his attack account talkpage. The parent account's page, user talk:eblem, is just being used for baseless complaints against Luna Santin. I'd like one other admin to review it before I blank and protect that page as well. — coelacan — 22:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

He kept up the soapboxing; I've gone ahead and protected his talk page. Other admins should feel free to revert me if you disagree and I'm afk and not responding. — coelacan — 23:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism -Antikurdish

The Turkish Users Makalp and Cat try to remove all categories from a lot of numbers of articles, It seems that they are not only removing the category, but also every reference to Kurdistan and Kurdish People- including the ethnicity. In any case; I'm not used to dealing with category blanking; so here's a list over articles I know where previously in this category:

• Bukan (removed by makalp with edit summary "cleanup", removed by Makalp again)
• Qorveh ("cleanup")
• Hermêle ("cleanup")
• Afrin, Syria ("cleanup")
• Sardasht ("cleanup")
• Saqqez ("cleanup")

Further Clean ups: ] ] ] ] ] ] ]] ] ] ] ]

Here, they make applications for moving and deletion of Kurdish related articles (The decisions of voting are almost keep)

] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Could somebody go through their contributions right now.--Bohater 15:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

My actions were inline with WP:V in a nutshell. "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it." My actions are also inline with WP:CAT#Some_general_guidelines #8. "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." -- Cat 17:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC

Could you explain, for the benefit of those of us who are unfamiliar with Kurdistan, why you would remove a Kurdistan category from an article in which the text of the article claims the place is located in Kurdistan, but not change the text of the article? CMummert · talk 19:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

If there is a verifiable and reliable source disputing this or any of the following assessments, I'd be happy to take it.

• As per: WP:V "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it." Kurdistan does not claim to be a country nor does anyone (including Kurdish people themselves) claim Kurdistan to be a country. So I do believe declaring Kurdistan not to be a country in any sense is anything controversial. There are people who wish for an independent Kurdistan, fortunately/unfortunately Kurdistan currently lacks the basic merits even for a defacto country. This may change in the future and we can categorize accordingly. But right now there is no grounds to make such a claim and it would be WP:OR and would also violate WP:NOT#CBALL.
• Kurdistan lacks defined borders. Google image search spits out some examples of inconsistent maps. Even among neutral sources such as dictionaries there is a serious disagreement among the basic area of Kurdistan. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) defines it as "a mountain and plateau region in SE Turkey, NW Iran, and N Iraq: inhabited largely by Kurds" while American Heritage Dictionary defines it as "An extensive plateau region of southwest Asia. Since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, it has been divided among southeast Turkey, northeast Iraq, and northwest Iran, with smaller sections in Syria and Armenia." on the other hand WordNet defines it as "an extensive geographical region in the Middle East to the south of the Caucasus". Webster says "The borders of Kurdistan are hard to define, as none of the states in question acknowledge Kurdistan as a demographical or geographical region."
• As per: WP:CAT#Some_general_guidelines #8 states that "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." "Kurdistan" is a controversial term as per examples: (incident #1 (Pentagon apology), (Rumsfeld considers it unfortunate)) (incident #2 (Amsterdam University apology) - (turkish)). Putting a "Kurdistan" category on random cities, provinces, lakes, rivers, mountains, and etc appears as an endorsement of Kurdistan's borders and also implies Kurdistan a country status.
• Ignoring the guideline all together (and treating Kurdistan as a geographic region) cities are almost never categorized by geographic regions. Geographic regions are hard to define and often overlap each other. York is not categorized as being a part of Europe but a part of United Kingdom. Political borders are comparatively very easy to define and do not easily change. Practically every city article on Misplaced Pages is categorized by political borders (country/state/province/etc). I oppose any kind of "geographic" categorization of cities as per the rationale behind WP:OC#Intersection by location and WP:DNWAUC (an essay of mine).

-- Cat 20:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Not vandalism, content dispute, so please don't label it as such. Moreschi 20:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree it is a content dispute. But since it's here, we might as well look into it. The arguments Cool Cat are making are CFD arguments. I don't know whether the various categories relating to Kurdistan geography have been nominated before, but right now CFD has its fifth nomination of Category:Kurdish inhabited regions. It seems the most recent two were both by Cool cat. Have the geography categories been nominated before? CMummert · talk 20:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, there is Makalp too, not only Cat. --Bohater 20:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I would most welcome that. I have been trying to find a solution to this problem for some time now. All of my attempts including mediation failed mostly because all parties involved refused to participate.

"Kurdish inhabited regions" is a census related category not geography. However there is no census data on the actual number of Kurds. Best thing we have is a CIA estimate. Which is encyclopedic enough to be on an article but not very reliable as a means to categorize (IMHO). Another interesting thing is Category:Hispanic inhabited regions was deleted about a year ago even though actual census data was available. Yet Category:Kurdish inhabited regions was kept as a no consensus which was nominated a day after Hispanic inhabited regions nom.

-- Cat 20:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you thought about an RFC to get some outside comments on the issue? The difficulty is that as long as the categories keep surviving CFDs, it implies that some people do think that there is a way to populate them. You might start with an RFC to determine exactly what criteria are required to add an article to Category:Rivers of Kurdistan or Category:Mountains of Kurdistan. CMummert · talk 21:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The mediation case I mentioned was linked via RFC. I was trying to discuss Category:Kurdistan and all subcats. Some such subcats have been deleted over time either by my or other peoples nominations such as Category:Airlines of Kurdistan, or Category:Sport in Kurdistan. I also would like to add that a formal mediation was also filed which also failed due to a lack of participation. I would welcome a 3rd rfc but I am almost convinced it would be fruitless due to a lack of participation. -- Cat 21:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, this is a culture and historical area. Nobody speaks about a political country with official borders. Please don't politize everthing. --Bohater 20:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that in my opinion Bohater (talk · contribs) is using Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Kurdistan for WP:CANVASSing purposes to the point of "advertising" commons copyright disputes. -- Cat 20:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well that is not true, I am Member of this project. On my Opinion, the all 18 members have the rigth to coment here. I don't see here for WP:CANVASSing. --Bohater 21:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

To be more specific: WP:CANVASS#Campaigning -- Cat 21:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this: User:Cool Cat's disruption of Kurdish categorization efforts is very interesting. --Bohater 23:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Which lead to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Moby Dick. I am starting to see parallelizations between that case and this one. -- Cat 00:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Darkcurrent

Darkcurrent (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)

Well, look at my talk page and you'll get it. Also, Darkcurrent has attacked in here, and has harrased another user just a few days ago. Apparently, this user in question has the intention of ridding Misplaced Pages from undesirables ("vandals, trolls, POV warriors, and hypocrites") and supports users like Wile E. Heresiarch. However, I absolutely cannot respect, or condone his philosophy, as he had preached it... in a hostile and vulgar way. Sometimes, when one is too devoted to a cause, he or she can become an extremist, and I have every reason to believe he is one. At some point, he had contradicted his own edits, as they are filled with opinions and POV. (Hypocrites, anyone?), and even mistook other users (see the above links), perhaps including me, as those undesirables. I have tried giving a long reply to his insulting rant, but unfortunately, my browser seemingly crashed, and I have no more options left. Is there ANY way to impose disciplinary action on him, like blocking him from Misplaced Pages? Clearly, this place is better off without him. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah_GO'NUCKSGO!! 16:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not an admin, but yeah, that's pretty bad as personal attacks go. -Hit bull, win steak 16:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Blocked 31 hours. I guess he just needs to calm down. John Reaves (talk) 17:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Says he's gone. Any relation to light current (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) do we think? Guy (Help!) 19:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• That occurred to me as well, but the editing style seems very different. -Hit bull, win steak 22:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Nah, he's not. He just copied Wile E. Heresiarch's userpage, but he still edits vicariously. --Jw21/PenaltyKillah_GO'NUCKSGO!! 02:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Tobacco Litigation

This article was AFD'd at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tobacco Litigation as a news article. Myself and two other editors identified it as a blatant copyvio. User:BuickCenturyDriver then closed the AFD and redirected the article to Tobacco Lawsuits but left the copyvio in the article history at Tobacco Litigation. User:BuickCenturyDriver does not appear to be an administrator, so could not have deleted the history in any event.

1. - Can someone delete the copyvios from the article history?
2. - I'm a little rusty on AFD closing rules. Who is entitled to close an AFD? Who is entitled to close one early? Are normal users permitted to do either of those things? If they are, should they not close AFDs that require actions upon closing that only an administrator can perform?

exolon 16:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Anybody can close a unanimous AFD (though they may not want to WP:SNOW it), and anybody can close one that's been withdrawn by the nom (as long as nobody else has taken the nom's position in the interim). It's generally not a good idea for non-admins to close ones requiring admin action, for the reasons you've already noted. -Hit bull, win steak 16:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the info - the copyvios are still in the history so that still needs doing. exolon 18:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Sorted. Guy (Help!) 19:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually someone else redirected, but I closed it. This is resolved. BuickCenturydriver (Honk, contribs) 22:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppet not blocked

User:MUNCH0000 admitted on my userpage that he owns 22 sock puppet accounts, previously thought (and still suspected) to be sock puppets of User:Danh90. I reported this on AIV, but was told to come here. In my opinion, the user should be blocked, as their vandalism and other edits are the same as the Danh90 vandalism. All other accounts (below) were blocked after vandalising, I don't see why this is any different...

• User:Danh90
• User:Nonpayer
• User:Timewaste
• User:How3
• User:Lou22
• User:Thevandal999
• User:Kburps
• User:Notenough
• User:Idontliketheimage
• User:Theman0
• User:81.149.196.44
• User:135.196.237.139
• User:Oldman50
• User:Antitrampikeygroup22
• User:AntiAnemoneProjectorsgroup
• User:LICKMYSCUM
• User:Thejok
• User:ANTITRAMPIKEY
• User:MUNCH0000
• User:86.136.0.96
• User:86.147.104.9
• User:Antiben
• User:86.138.157.207

-Trampikey 18:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

See also: Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Danh90 -Trampikey 18:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Odd one

Stephen Pate - sdpate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - has emailed OTRS (ticket 857097) to complain that the article Disability rights in Prince Edward Island is his own work and he revokes the license to use it; as we know, you can't revoke the grant of license so that's a non-starter. He's been blocked for blanking it. Two things come from this, though.

First, I encourage others to review that user's contributions. They appear to present a particular slant on Canadian politics (read: POV).

Second, the article on disability rights in Prince Edward Island seems rather odd. The subject rather specific, there is no link to the Prince Edward Island article, there is no indication that disability rights on PEI are in any way different to those in the rest of Canada, and the citations make it appear as if the entire thing is original research. Much as I hate to remove something when the author makes a baseless and ridiculous request, it does look a lot as if deletion might be merited for that article. Guy (Help!) 19:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone's nominated it for deletion.

However, someone may want to help Stephan with the GFDL as he has now written on his user talk page:

The article Disability Rights on Prince Edward Island was written in April 2007 by Stephen Pate. Stephen Pate is the exclusive copyright owner of this work. The author has forbidden its publication, copying, use or modification by anyone, including Misplaced Pages and its agents.

Continued wrongful use of this article may result in civil penalties of any jurisdiction in North America and Europe being imposed on Misplaced Pages and any independent editors who violate the copyright. Please take heed of this notice.Sdpate 18:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Just pointing it out. --Ali'i 19:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

These he has emailed me with to point out the continued media pressure (?) he'll keep on the 'pedia if we dont delete it: http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/index.cfm?sid=24649&sc=110 and http://peidisabilityalert.blogspot.com/2007/04/news-flash-wikipedia-editor-may-be.html -M 20:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

A bit of background I know of: This week's signpost contains an article about an editing conflict in which this user was involved. He was most upset that the article was written by a protagonist in the conflict, and tagged it as {{pov}}. I reverted this change on the grounds that it was a newspaper article not an encyclopaedia article; however I think it is not generally a good idea to go writing Signpost articles about issues in which you are yourself involved. Sam Blacketer 22:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"Continued wrongful use of this article may result in civil penalties of any jurisdiction in North America and Europe being imposed on Misplaced Pages and any independent editors who violate the copyright." Blocking Sdpate for legal threat. ⇒ SWATJester 22:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Too late, Naconkantari got to it first. ⇒ SWATJester 22:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• I nominated it for deletion, because while ANI can get the guy blocked, it probably won't delete the article except under extraordinary circumstances. Nardman1 22:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The attempt to revoke the GFDL is obviously invalid, but the article is clearly not going to survive AfD. Any objection to my speedying the thing and saving us 5 more days of aggravation? Before anyone says this would set a bad precedent, I know it's been quietly done several times before. Newyorkbrad 23:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Do it, if it is a notable subject someone else will decide to write about it. It has absolutely no incoming links from mainspace. If someone wants to make pointy-headed, vaguely-threatening, GFDL positions then just be rid of their GFDL contributions. SchmuckyTheCat 23:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

User User:Benapgar evading block by using IP User:24.57.157.81

The IP User:24.57.157.81 is contributing and when confronted with the simple question asking if they are User:Benapgar they evade the question. Not the first time, see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Benapgar I do not know if the ANI was followed through.

1. Are they even remotely the same - see from long ago in which the user clearly says this IP is the same.
2. Are the edits similar ?. The same subjects are being discussed i.e. Talk page for Atheism as an example.
3. Are they disruptive ?. If you see Special:contributions/24.57.157.81 they have done hundreds of talk page edits with what seems to be their WP:OR. For any other user probably let it ride but for a banned user there is no reason why the community needs to tolerate this traffic.

Is it possible to simply block the IP address ?. Ttiotsw 20:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The wording and issues that he cares about are almost identical. I'm going to block the IP. JoshuaZ 06:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Goatse image nominated for deletion

Somebody uploaded "goatse" to Misplaced Pages, and - predictably - it was soon nominated for deletion. The discussion has attracted a number of knee-jerk "keep" votes on the grounds that Misplaced Pages is not censored; my argument for deletion is the following:

• First, the image has no information on its copyright status. Second, it may well have been made by a professional pornographic performer, and its inclusion on Misplaced Pages would violate fair use criterion 2. ("The material must not be used in a manner that would likely replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media.") Third, the non-censorship policy means that Misplaced Pages articles may contain objectionable images when their inclusion is warranted, not that obviously inappropriate images should be added for the sake of it. Misplaced Pages is not a shock site or a repository of pornography. Strong (and preferable speedy) delete as copyright violation and vandalism.

I don't want to unilaterally go against the opinion of the community, but WP:C and WP:FAIR are not negotiable; it seems to me that Misplaced Pages cannot use the file legaly, even if we wanted to. What do you people think? - Mike Rosoft 21:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm.... I'll definitely comment on it......as soon as I get off work. :) ↔NMajdan•talk 21:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Hah, glad to know that I'm not the only one that has to delay their activity in the manner. ;) EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I speedily deleted per CSDI4: image had no copyright tag (and was clearly copyrighted by the original goatse.cx site).⇒ SWATJester 21:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Errr is the closing process for IFD different than AFD? Someone mind closing it for me, since the image has been speedied? ⇒ SWATJester 22:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Good point, it is not currently detailed at Misplaced Pages:Deletion process and is only kind of detailed in a subpage of WP:IFD. --Iamunknown 00:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking "fair use" until you said criterion two. Good deletion, case resolved (I think). Abeg92We are all Hokies! 01:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages may not be censored, but I think we should apply some common sense to exactly what we choose to display. --Deskana (fry that thing!) 01:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It was originally uploaded by some guy, its copyright status has never been clear enough for our terms. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 01:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm honestly appalled that someone was able to upload that picture of me, I will hang my head in shame. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Bluwiki123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've been accused of wiki-stalking by this...individual (sadly I cannot call him what I wish, per WP:NPA). . False accusations of wiki-stalking probably violate a policy somewhere, although I'm not sure which. Any comments? Nardman1 22:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't you think you may be being a little sensitive here? Asking someone who nominates your user page for deletion to leave you alone is hardly an accusation of wikistalking. Its understandable that the editor will be upset with you. Disengage and go find something more useful to do. --Spartaz 23:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well ok then. Nardman1 23:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

MfD closed and userpage(s) deleted. Daniel Bryant 00:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

US DOJ - Moved from AIV

• 149.101.1.121 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) - Vandal briefly stopped after second warning ... then once he saw that he wasn't being blocked (see previous report below), he started up again here with repetitive, redundant multiple links.

• Note: This IP matches the mask (149.101.0.0/16) in my special IP list which is marked as: "United States Department of Justice - See Misplaced Pages:Sensitive IP addresses for important information before blocking" HBC AIV helperbot3 22:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• - despite two warnings continues to add repetitive, redundant multiple links at Harvey Awards. -- Tenebrae 19:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This IP matches the mask (149.101.0.0/16) in my special IP list which is marked as: "United States Department of Justice - See Misplaced Pages:Sensitive IP addresses for important information before blocking" HBC AIV helperbot2 19:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

No edits since recent warnings - leave on file for a short while and then delete. Ian Cairns 19:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I've moved this thread from admin intervention against vandalism, as it may warrant a little more discussion than tends to happen there. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

What separates someone at the USDOJ (a huge cabinet level agency with tens of thousands of employees) vandalizing comic book articles from someone at some other employer? This isn't a situation that needs special handling just because the IP is from a special place. SchmuckyTheCat 23:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Public relations? --Iamunknown 23:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

No discussion needed, I think. They were warned, no edits for a few hours, you can move on to your next victim :) --kingboyk 23:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC) (e/c)

Not sure what the above comment means. The user stopped for a while, and when he saw nothing was happening to him, he simply started up again. I guess he's gone home for the night, but it doesn't seem right to keep having to rv his vandalism -- I could wind up a 3RR that way. --Tenebrae 23:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

3RR doesn't apply if you are fighting vandalism. As it's a shared IP, we consider the vandalism warning enough; we don't block as "punishment", we block to prevent damage. As it's stopped, that's the of the matter. If it resumes, and you spot it, please feel free to drop another note here. --kingboyk 00:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Once again, if anybody blocks that IP, someone needs to notify ComCom immediately. Sean William 00:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. But assuming it's stopped now, there's no reason to block. --kingboyk 00:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted today's offerings from the same IP address. There may be good edits in there, but I'm not going to wade through 37 edits picking and choosing. I suppose two days in a row rules out "bring your child to the office day" ? Shenme 18:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite block: Poop15040

Well, I'm on a roll - second indefinite blocks in as many days

• inappropriate username (User:Poop15040)
• vandalism only acocunt (contributions)
• creation of attack page (Rico (Hannah Montana))

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this a block review? If so, good block. — coelacan — 00:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate username+vandalism=indef. Seems clear enough to me. Seraphimblade 00:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

And how. Natalie 01:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio at The Condemned

The article says straight out: "In the May 2007 issue of WWE Magazine, readers got a chance to see a collection of profiles of the 10 'contestants' for The Condemned." and then copies the content into the article. I removed it, and got accused of vandalism, so I'm bringing it to the Admins' attention. --69.22.254.111 00:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I've remade what appears to have been your original edit. Please check and verify that all the offending material is gone, and thank you for catching this. Removing a copyvio is definitely not vandalism; in fact, it's one of the most helpful things you can do for Misplaced Pages. Picaroon 01:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so very much! I agree it's important to remove blatant copyvios quickly.

But User talk:PureRED is insisting differently and leaving nasty messages on my talk page. It's escalating, and I'm not sure he understands WP:CIVIL and I know he doesn't understand Assume Good Faith. Please help. --69.22.254.111 03:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

And now I've seen that he's attacked other editors as well: --69.22.254.111 03:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/PureRED. Is this some sort of bot? This user was just denied the use of VandalProof. Corvus cornix 16:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Glock 19 slow motion edit war about Virginia Tech Massacre link

There's a slow motion edit war in progress at Glock 19 over including or not including a section mentioning that a Glock 19 handgun was the primary gun used by the killer in the Virginia Tech Massacre. Talk page seems to be running majority but not consensus against (gun is notable in massacre, but massacre isn't notable from gun's standpoint), with a significant vocal minority arguing that the massacre is notable from the gun's standpoint. Multiple people on both sides are reverting it back and forth several times a day, each staying under 3RR but collectively up to about 10RR yesterday and about 6 today, on each side, if I counted right.

Talk page discussion has been ranging from reasonable to hot and cold running slander. I asked people to calm the discussion down and it failed miserably.

Could we have an uninvolved impartial admin review? I have a personal bias on which is the correct answer and don't want to touch any special buttons on this case. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert 01:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• This came up before with the Beretta Cx4 Storm and Dawson College shooting, settled on not mentioning it in the gun article. There I would have actually not minded mentioning it, but Glock 19 has appeared in so many more places that it's not closely associated the way, say a Mannlicher-Carcano is with Oswald. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 01:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention that by that standard, nearly ever U.S. police shooting would have to mention it, since Glock 19's are in use by a SIGNIFICANT number of offices and departments. ⇒ SWATJester 03:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is also closely related to the Walther P22 edit war, it being the other handgun carried by Cho, which surprisingly enough has seemingly reached a more stable position, albeit one of non-consensus. Unlike in the Glock 19 article, this discussion has fallen more closely to a 50:50 split, with no clear consensus. A potential compromise has been proposed, to mention the Va Tech Massacre in only a See also section, and this has reached a semi-stable stasis in just the last 24 hours. As a former participant in the Glock 19 and Walther P22 debates, as well as in the earlier Cx4 debate, Dawson College, and several other shooting debates, I have intentionally tried to keep out of latest parts of the two recent discussions by not responding to potentially slanderous comments, although I did post an RfC on the Walther P22 page to try and take some of the heat away from the article itself. It seems to have helped the article reach the previously-mentioned semi-stasis. 3RR blocks have also helped calm some of the more vocal participants. Being that both sides are extremely vocal and convinced that their position is somehow the only one, I don't believe that a full mention, nor a complete non-mention, will ultimately work on either of the two articles. Yaf 04:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If I understand correctly from other past edits, the Gun guys have strongly objected to any mentions of "Pop Culture" references, and this is pretty much echoed as a what Misplaced Pages is not) (see this talk page discussion as an example. Pretty much, gun pages should be about the gun itself, not a trivia repository about every little media apperance and infamous shooting escapade.--293.xx.xxx.xx 11:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Just as I posted this, I had to look at the Walther PPK, and sure enough, there is a little Pop Culture blurb about James Bond. At least the Walther_P99 has a model that is officially licensed as an offical James Bond merchendise. Well, there goes my "Pop Culture Bad!!" arguement. --293.xx.xxx.xx 11:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that there's a slight difference, as the Walther has been associated with Bond for around fifty years. When I was involved in the Cx4 discussion, my question was whether it will remain significant - if you were discussing the issue five, ten, twenty years down the road, will people remember that the Dawson College (or Virginia Tech) weapons were particular ones? The Walther PPK in particular is remembered as Bond's gun; I personally doubt the Glock 19 or Walther P22 will be remembered as the Virginia Tech guns. I think it would be helpful for the future for the Firearms Wikigroup to work on guidelines of some sort in regards to what is significant enough for inclusion. And with all this said, I'm going to try to stay out of the rest of the discussion, since I have family in that region and cannot consider myself as holding an NPOV on the topic. The Dark 16:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

293.xxx, us "gun guys" only generally want pop culture sections when it's about a significant cultural icon: James Bond's classic suaveness came partially from his having a PPK, he didn't need a big honking american M1911 .45. Bond's PPK is a significant cultural icon that is remembered by millions around the world. In one year, who will remember that Cho used a Glock 19, or a Walther P22? It is completely irrelevant to the information of the gun, exactly which criminal events it was used in. When the gun itself is particularly notable, for instance, debate over the Barret M82 series of .50 anti-material rifles in "crime", then it may be worth including. However, there is no particular big debate over the Glock 19's usage in crime: it's quite literally ubiquitous around the world by police forces, militaries, private citizens, and criminals. Most people couldn't even tell you what a Glock 19 looks like, but they are going to tell the world it is important to know that this particular shooter used it in this particular shooting? ⇒ SWATJester 16:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I've fully protected the article because there's ongoing reverts to the article. This needs to be worked out with consensus and people are a bit too worked up at the moment for that. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 19:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Night ggyr: there is quite clear consensus on the talk page that it should not be includable. I don't dispute your protection, due to the edit warring, but I've restored the version without the "see also" link, per the article's talk page. At last check, I noticed an almost 3:1 preference on the glock article to exclude the reference. This is not the Walther article, where there is no consensus yet: the thoughts of the community on this topic are quite clear, and it is only a few disruptive editors who keep messing with it. ⇒ SWATJester 19:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

For the record, it is 14 editors against, to 5 editors for inclusion. That's pretty clear consensus to me. Accordingly, I've removed the sentence, and left a comment on the article talk that consensus HAS been reached, and further attempts to disrupt the article will not be looked upon kindly. ⇒ SWATJester 20:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Block review requested - User:Yeager Welcome Bot

I have just blocked this bot for 2 reasons;

• t has not been approved.
• Welcoming bots are impersonal to new users and have been shot down everytime they have been proposed.

Pleaase could somebody review this block and unblock if required? Ryan Postlethwaite 01:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

As an unauthorized bot, a block is definitely justified. WP:BOT does state that human assisted bots "don't necessarily need bot approval," but also states that a consensus should be made before making a large series of edits. Also note the speed at which the account is editing; appears unassisted. I'll leave whether the bot is necessary up to the bot proposal guys. - auburnpilot talk 01:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

1) Assisted bots don't need bot approval, as I personally post every message the bot composes.

2) At this point, the welcome committee is not staffed to welcome any reasonable percentage of new users. I feel that any welcome (be it by a bot) is better then no welcome. I direct them to my user page if they need help, as well as giving them several links for help. This has been a success as i have already had users ask questions to me because they were not already welcomed and they didnt know where to go \ what to do. I've been able to successfully give advice to these user, who would have normally been lost.

3) I feel this message is personal, even although its not unique, it gives the user someone they can contact and count on for help.

4) In conclusion, I ask for my 'bot' (whom really just saves me time in composing the message) to be unblocked so that i may welcome new users and give them guidance and support that they otherwise would not receive (besides a small percentage).

Thank you for your time and I respectfully welcome any decision. My intentions were nothing but for the best. Thank you, Matthew Yeager 01:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

5) Although the speed of edits is high, every post is composed, then i review it. If i manually approve it, its added to the jobs to be completed. I can choose when to run the bots "edit" feature. For example, I can choose to have the bot compose 20 messages, then i would go through and ensure each message is correct, then i can tell the bot to edit and then it posts the messages. This can be seen as the edits are made quickly, but then there is substantial down time in between runs, as i am checking the messages. Matthew Yeager 01:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If the edits are approved manually, then the bot doesn't need approval. But the high edit rate is discouraged (the AWB folks also have to keep their edit speed down); a delay between edits should be added. I recommend lifting the block now that the operator is here, provided he agrees to lower the edit rate. CMummert · talk 02:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Lowered edit rate agreed. down to say 5 - 6 edits a minute (pretty sure thats the guildline) unless you will allow me to do more, either way is cool with me. thank you for proposing an unblock. please let me know if/when it will/has taken place. Matthew Yeager 02:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, I've blocked several blatant vandals recently only to find a message from this bot already on their talk page welcoming them (eg User talk:Ockasekrockaway). There was a user the other day welcoming blatant Mr Oompapa impersonator socks , and thanking them for their contributions. Sometimes, auto-welcomes are just silly. It seems the height of impersonability. -- zzuuzz 02:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

5-6 per minute is acceptable for AWB and so it should be fine. If nobody else (including Ryan Postlethwaite) comments in 15 minutes or so, since Ryan asked above for someone else to unblock if required, I'll do it. I'm going to reread the bot guidelines in the meantime. Either way someone will let you know. CMummert · talk 02:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the bot issue, it's still semi-automatic welcome messages, and something the community is not warm to. -- Ned Scott 02:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The bot has been fixed to never over write previous messages. it should have never been doing that to start.

although the community is not 'warm' to the issue, as explained above, this seems to be the best way to help these new users who dont know what is going on. currently, without the bot, I watch 50 new users at a time go by without a welcoming, direction, or a person to go to for help.Matthew Yeager 02:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I made an announcement at the bot noticeboard to draw attention here.

I am willing to unblock the bot, to relieve any tension about it being blocked. But, in light of the objections raised here, I think it would be a show of good faith if you don't start the welcoming again until tomorrow (27 April). A delay will give others a chance to comment. Does that seem reasonable? CMummert · talk 03:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the block is justified. The Community has for good reason been long opposed to welcome Bots. This account is in rather a catch 22 situation. If it is a bot- its unapproved and should be blocked. If its not a Blot its name is against username policy and it should be blocked. In my opinion, if someone wishes to welcome users they should do it personally. Often users who are welcomed ask questions about Misplaced Pages to the account that welcomed them which a Bot cannot answer. Looking through the Yeager Welcome Bot's edits, it appears that users are welcomed indiscriminately. Accounts that have never edited have been welcomed, which is a waste of time and creates pointless pages. It also appears that a couple of usernames that are aginst policy were welcomed. Put simply, I believe that this "Bot" (while the creation of it was well-intentioned) is more detrimental to the project than beneficial. WjBscribe 03:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Unblocking the bot would be appreciated. I will withhold any actions from the bot until a decision is met. If its decided that the bot shall not be needed, then i shall wish to retire it as appose to having it blocked. This way it may be used to greet users the 'old fashion way'. Does this seem acceptable ? Matthew Yeager 03:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

WJBscribe - I think that the username is acceptable (the bot policy is somewhat complicated). The section on assisted bots says that they don't necessarily need approval and that a separate username is recommended. Since the user has agreed to discuss the issue, my personal opinion is that the bot account can be unblocked as a measure of good faith. I won't go over your objection, however. CMummert · talk 03:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This one area where username policy is fairly clear: "Names that... Imply an automated account, such as names containing "robot", "bot", or a variation thereof." In my opinion using scripts to welcome users is fine so long as:

• It is done by an account that doesn't claim to be a Bot- why have impersonal welcomes anyway?
• Only users who have actually made edits are welcomed.

I don't understand why Matthew Yeager doesn't just welcome users with his own account- which would seem much friendlier. That being said I have no objection to a courtesy unblocking while discussions continue if you really think that would help... WjBscribe 04:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I agree it would be more personal to use his actual username. I'm going to unblock, as a courtesy, since the M. Yeager has agreed not to run the bot setup until discussion proceeds. Even though the bot being blocked shouldn't affect much, I think if I were him I would breathe easier if my bot account wasn't blocked (and I have one). CMummert · talk 04:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

thanks to both of you for the agreed unblock. the only reason i didnt use my own account is after ready the BOTS section which said that if you were planning on making edit a large number of edit for a specific reason then that would be allowed. so i figured that i would have a normal account specialized in editing and reverting vandalism and then a separate account for welcoming users and answering beginners questions, so that the normal account didnt get flooded with those questions. that reasoning + using scrips to compose the message sent to the user, i figured that justified "bot" being placed in the name, as the naming convention for human assisted bots does not mention not having 'bot' in the name, nor does it recommend a different word that should be used. so from that, i picked a separate account and to use the word bot in it.

I would be willing to apply for a name change and then use that separate account as originally intended, yet without the high rate of impersonalized welcome messages. a name without bot, but an account separate from my main account. example: Matthew.B.Yeager. sound reasonable ? Matthew Yeager 04:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me- I think a more personal username to welcome people with would be a lot friendlier. Please do check whether the accounts you welcome have actually edited. Unfortunately most new accounts never edit Misplaced Pages- there doesn't seem much to be gained from adding hundreds of pages a day to Misplaced Pages for such accounts. WjBscribe 04:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

awesome, it appears we have reached a solution that we agree on. I will be checking to ensure accounts have edited. thank you all for your time and i'm glad i was able to work with patient and reasonable administration. Matthew Yeager 04:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Jefferson Anderson reverted my User page & blanked other pages of mine

Is that allowed? I in the past have been punished for doing that to my own page. Also Jefferson Anderson has blanked other of my pages. Can something be done to retrieve the material? Please help? Sincerely --Mattisse 01:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC):

Please someone stop User:Jefferson Anderson from blanking portions of my user page, please. May I have my pages protected until I get a rest. I do not know what is still missing. There is material that I need that I can no longer find. Is there help for this? --Mattisse 01:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Matisse, please stop forum shopping. Users have already removed the speedy deletion tags. Regards, Iamunknown 02:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I don't think it's forum shopping, is it? Mattisse is just worried about what might happen overnight. I don't think protection is necessary, because I hope no admin would speedy these pages (WP:MFD is the correct venue, although I'm don't expect they'd be deleted). — coelacan — 02:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Since you have directly characterised my comment unfavourably in your edit summary, coelacan, I feel the need to explain: I did not intend to WP:BITE anyone. I don't know the history between these two users, all I see is a big black box on every single one of Mattisse's subpages characterising Jefferson Anderson unfavourably, and I can imagine that Mr Anderson might feel like he is currently wearing a scarlet letter and is being disparaged; whatever rift has come between them is not likely to go away because of such actions. Furthermore, forum shopping to WP:VPT, here, multiple other editor's talk pages is likely further to drive a wedge. I would appreciate your assumption of good faith on my part and not characterise me as something that I am not. Thank you, Iamunknown 02:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't characterized you as anything. If you were biting, it would likely be inadvertent, since as far as I know, you aren't a jerk. It's your choice to be offended if you want to, but I didn't intend it that way. — coelacan — 03:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I was not intentionally forum shopping. I do not know about these various process of deletion. All I know that information was being removed from my user page by Jefferson Anderson. I received no responds from anyone I asked except Thatcher131 who said that it was not happening. I have managed to restore some. of it. Is that called forum shopping, trying to get a response from some one? Please, I would like to do the right thing here, but I have been harassed for many months and I am very tired and at this point I do not know what to do and can't think clearly anymore as I am frightened. Sorry to have irritated you. Sincerely, --Mattisse 03:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not necessary to raise the issue in so many places. One message right here on WP:ANI would be enough. Now you know. — coelacan — 03:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I understand now. And I apologize to both of you for getting all indignant. I guess I just saw what appeared to be a major rift between you and Mr Anderson and, while I don't know the background behind it, I wish it were not there. I don't assume that I am alone, and I should probably just mind my own business now. I apologize. --Iamunknown 03:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It's cool. I don't think either of us intended to WP:ABF with the other. — coelacan — 03:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Kira99er (talk · contribs)

• This user is frequently creating articles to publicize his own "ATB Productions" company, and I think someone needs to sit down with him and tell him about the rules. I'd do it, but I'm not really in any condition to reasonably talk about Misplaced Pages policy right now (high on Vicodin atm). JuJube 02:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Antaeus Feldspar not willing to heed WP:BIAS, WP:RS and WP:NPA

Antaeus Feldspar has been aggressive against me personally repeatedly and it has been provenly impossible to resolve NPOV issues on talk pages with him. Just today he deleted - without prior discussion - several edits I did on Andreas Heldal-Lund here, here and here. Instead of trying to reach a consensus here is busy "collecting dirt".

I am asking for Admin assistance to settle with this person so that disruptive edits and PAs stop.

COFS 03:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a content dispute over undue weight in the article lead, as well as you trying to insert WP:BLP violations using unreliable sources. I fail to see any personal attacks from Antaeus Feldspar. And that user is entitled to keep track of edits you've made that may be objectionable, as possible preparation for an RFC. In any case, try dispute resolution. — coelacan — 03:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It appears that Antaeus Feldspar was properly following our policy concerning Biographies of living persons and Undue weight. If you ensure that your future edits follow these policies you should not have further problems. Otherwise, pursue dispute resolution as suggested by coelacan. Newyorkbrad 03:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I will take a wild guess that COFS is a sock of User:AI. 75.62.7.22 05:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Who is pulling your strings, Mr. Anonymous? COFS 18:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

COFS couldn't possibly stand for Church OF Scientology, could it. Returned banned user or troll, I suggest - best ignored. We actually have Scientologists and indeed Church staff members writing on the Scientology pages, and barring the occasional rancorous talk page row or Arbitration case it's been IMO (as a staunch critic) really good for NPOV in a tricky area. I think everyone working on those articles to write an encyclopedia can agree that neither side is very fond of people coming on and acting like dicks - David Gerard 10:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

COFSs stands for nothing specific. To put it on record, I have never been banned nor sockpuppeted anything anywhere, neither on Misplaced Pages nor anywhere else. I agree with you, David Gerard, that the presence of Scientologists in Misplaced Pages does help balance the articles to a NPOV status, but I also must remark that minority protection on Misplaced Pages sucks. You know from our common project at WP:SCN that those who actually have personal experience - Scientologists - are the total minority, mainly because they have to go through daily cynicism and invalidations by the other editors and who - with some pride - would accept that for long. Another wish to you directly is that you please have an eye on the application of WP:COI, thanks. Thanks also, coel and Newyorkbrad, for the constructive answer. I'll try my best. COFS 18:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

False info on user page

A new situation I haven't encountered before is a user who has placed blatantly false info on his user page. My impression is that user pages are normally sacrosanct, but I am tempted to remove the material or blank the page. I blocked the user for repeated vandalism a little while ago. The user is User:ChrisMorello. Thoughts? Pollinator 04:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not happy about the userpage, which is misleading. If the user put up a "joke" template, like the one at WP:BJ, that would solve the problem. YechielMan 04:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

See Sour Cherry. See 66.240.89.10 put in bogus information. See User:ChrisMorello get created. See User:ChrisMorello's first edit, to Sour Cherry. See User:ChrisMorello enshrine himself. See User:ChrisMorello get blocked for vandalism. Idohno, ya think he'll be a good-fella, and blank his user page? Shenme 07:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

False claim of Adam Savage's Death

Multiple anon IP edits to Adam Savage have just been reverted, which claimed the articles subject had passed away today. No information can be found to support this claim on the usual sources inc. Google News, nor did the change include any factual or cited source to back up the change. It has since been reverted by VegitaU. These unsourced edits were in place for a period of 7min total. Thewinchester 04:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected. If anyone feels it appropriate to undo the semi-protection, go ahead, but we should have a few people watching the article. Grandmasterka 05:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Crap... Someone did it to Jamie Hyneman too, a month ago, and it's still semi-protected. Someone's a little obsessed with killing Mythbusters. Grandmasterka 08:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this like something Somethingawful or 4chan would cook up? Or just another bad Internet meme?--293.xx.xxx.xx 11:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Who the heck knows, but it's caused another couple of articles to appear on my permanent watchlist. Seriously, it's just getting lame with BIO articles to the point where they almost all need semi. Thanks for the quick response to this. Thewinchester 14:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Jayjg and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel

• DRV discussion now at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 26. -- ChrisO 18:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to request that another administrator review Jayjg's behaviour in this matter.

Jayjg undid the actions of another administrator here, and imposed his own decision on the afd result. His actual decision may have been technically correct. However, I don't believe Jayjg should have been the person to close this afd, given his editing history on articles relating to Israel. CJCurrie 05:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

How can you "merge" when the article is deleted, which would be a violation of the GFDL? hbdragon88 05:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes it would be. --Iamunknown 05:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Even as such submission relative to the GFDL is often made, it's not, IMHO, as a matter of law, quite right. One may, of course, effect a page history merge, such that the revision history of the antecedent page may be safely deleted, but, as I recapitulated here, such merge is disfavored as exorbitantly time-consuming and generally unnecessary. The GFDL, though, does not require that a substantive revision history be kept; that is, a revision history that enumerates only those who are principal contributors but does not offer individual diffs to the contributions of each suffices (were the latter substantive history required for GFDL compliance, the transwiki of content from Misplaced Pages to, say, Wikibooks would be a bit unwieldy ). It is only, AFAIK, for policy reasons—largely good ones, IMHO—that we proscribe merge-and-delete closures. (This comment is, of course, entirely irrelevant to the instant situation or, really, to anything we do here, but I think it necessary to point out that (I believe) that we are not compelled to do things as we do.) Joe 18:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I just posed a question for Jayjg at Doc's page, WjBscribe at Jayjg's page, maybe we should wait for further comments until we hear from em? --Iamunknown 05:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I'd just noticed this myself and asked Jayjg to comment on it. It does seem very irregular. Better let him know that the matter has been raised here as well. WjBscribe 05:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg has a long history of activism here with respect to Israeli issues. Fred Bauder 05:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• If the action was technically correct, a "tsk" is called for. --jpgordon 05:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Upon whom? --Iamunknown 06:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Well Jayjg's close cannot be correct because it goes against GDFL. We can't merge deleted content... WjBscribe 06:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think Jayjg or Doc's close was correct, I don't see any consensus there on anything. Still, Doc closed it as he did, and isn't that what DRV's for, rather than to reverse the close unilaterally while calling it "nonsense"? Seraphimblade 06:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It should probably be taken to DRV, but as the delete/merge issue, the easy way to do handle that is to have it as a redirect with the edits in the history and then merge anything over. Still, this looks like it should go to DRV for now. I do have trouble seeing Doc's close given what the AfD looks like. JoshuaZ 06:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping to be able to suggest that we wait to hear from both of them, but if we must I would suggest undeleting it and taking it to DRV, as that what should have been done had Jayjg not reversed Doc's actions. --Iamunknown 06:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sent to DRV. Seraphimblade 06:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Should it be history-only undeleted during the DRV? I'm not terribly comfortable doing that since I listed it, but it might be helpful for those commenting to be able to see history. Seraphimblade 06:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

As was already noted, Jayjg was right to correct the mistake (I hope unintentional). If anyone, it is not he who needs to be admonished. ←Humus sapiens 06:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What mistake? Jayjg disagreed with the other admin and undid his decision. His decision might have been right or wrong (I have no idea since I have not reviewed the votes Given the discussion, it seems to me that the majority voted for merging the information to other articles-whether that majority formed a consensus needs more experience which I don't have). His decision I think was right and was done in complete good faith but he should have stated his point through DRV but it was not respectful. --Aminz 06:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see where it was noted and I strongly dispute the statement. I think it was plain wrong. --Iamunknown 06:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Note that it was marked as a "minor" change, too. -- ChrisO 12:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi fellows! I just restored the AfD back to Doc's closed version and the article as well, but I left the DRV header up there, so people visiting the article could comment. I've a problem though; I'm rather ignorant when it comes to templates and have no idea how to get the DRV header to reflect that the article is not, in fact, deleted. Any assistance on this would be both welcomed and appreciated! Thanks in advance! Cheers gaillimh 07:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. (It's {{delrev}}, by the way.) Seraphimblade 07:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, excellent. Thanks a lot to Seraphimblade for the help in getting the correct tag on the article! gaillimh 07:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I added the AFD result template to Talk:United States military aid to Israel. --Timeshifter 08:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I note many of the same editors who voted for "delete" of this article were involved in possibly illegally deleting another article about Israel. This one: Accusations against Israel of war crimes during the Al-Aqsa Intifada (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). The closing admin comment on that page was "No consensus. Keep, with strong encouragement to merge with Al-Aqsa Intifada on the basis of Misplaced Pages:Content forking. Jayjg has so messed up the naming and the redirecting of the article. The talk page is under a different name than the article name. See: Talk:Allegations against Israel of war crimes during the Al-Aqsa Intifada. Every attempt to stop the possibly illegal deletion of that article was reverted by the same tag-team crew of editors. I thought the problem was more a problem with the name. I thought "war crimes" was too strong for all the various alleged human rights violations. So I tried undeleting the article and changing the name to Alleged human rights violations by Israel during Al-Aqsa Intifada. But Jayjg again deleted the page, and redirected again to al-Aqsa Intifada. I have since decided that there are even better names. See my request for help at: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Arab-Israeli conflict#Requests for NPOV help. Specific articles. Some possible names modeled after other article names. Names such as "Human rights in the Palestinian territories," or "Human rights under Israeli occupation," or "Human rights in Israeli-controlled territories" Tewfik initiated the AFD for the article. Same as for United States military aid to Israel. Jayjg backed up the deletion attempts on both articles. It now seems that both attempts at deletion violated wikipedia guidelines. Neither article had a consensus to delete. I personally think both articles are content forks, not POV forks. Both articles have too much material to be dealt with well in a few paragraphs in another article.--Timeshifter 09:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There's no such thing as an "illegal" deletion, only an improper one. I'm not going to pass judgment about whether the deletions you highlighted above were improper or not, but you're certainly right in saying that there are some very questionable things going on in the Arab-Israeli-related articles. As Fred Bauder rightly says, Jayjg has a long history of partisan activism in this area and it's not the first time he's acted in this way (). A lot of the problems here appear to result from the activities of a clique of political activists; the same names come up over and over again. -- ChrisO 12:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It's disappointing that some people appear to have taken a deletionist line on this. I've proposed a possible solution to the issue on DRV, which would establish a consistent series of articles on bilateral US military relations - see for details. -- ChrisO 12:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It has been noted that Jayjg has a history of partisan activism in this area. The question is to what extent he is permitted to use his admin privilages to support his POV. Is reversing the closure of an already closed deletion debate permitted? ابو علي (Abu Ali) 13:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll just note that some of the most bitter denunciations of Jayjg's preferred area of editing comes from (some of the) people who have been guilty of egregious POV-pushing in the same area themselves. My suggestion is that everyone in this thread just simmer down until Jay has had a chance to comment. I think that's fair to ask. IronDuke 14:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we Jay should explain his actions here. But I must point out that the only "bitter denunciations" I have seen here were the adhomeniam attacks in IronDuke's preceeding comment. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 15:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no ad hominem when no specific person is targeted. IronDuke is absolutely 100% correct: Quite a large number of the people who consistently attack Jayjg are people who have their own, opposing biases. And yet, of course, they are never wrong themselves, it's always "administrator abuse", or "illegal editing", or something or the other. It's always "jayjg is pushing his POV", never "Jayjg is reverting other's POV pushings". The fact is, Abu ali, you don't know whether Jayjg was using his admin privileges to support his POV or not: that is an assumption you are making, and as we're already discussing logical fallacy here, the assumption is ungrounded because you don't know what is going on in Jayjg's brain. Lets all just stop "assuming" things already, unless it's "good faith". That's the ONLY thing we should be assuming at the moment: it seems many of Jayjg's critics are forgetting that. ⇒ SWATJester 16:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this is more a question of Jayjg's judgment rather than his good faith. I don't doubt that Jayjg believed that he was acting in good faith. The real issue here is whether his actions were well judged. Let's confine the discussion to that issue, rather than straying into assumptions about his motives. -- ChrisO 18:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying: He believed he was acting in good faith, so therefore we should treat him in good faith. I'm only commenting as per above based on comments that don't treat him in good faith. I'm not touching the issue whether his actions were "well judged or not" because I frankly don't know enough. ⇒ SWATJester 19:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• I've been away sleeping and working while all this blew up. I find the whole thing really quite baffling. I've asked jayig for an explanation of his actions: . I most resent having my considered decision rolled back as 'nonsense' by a fellow. I'd have been happy to discuss the close with him and review any mistake I might have made. He only had to ask.--Doc 16:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think CJCurrie should have spoken to Jay before bringing it here, or better still, should have left it for Jayjg and Doc Glasgow to sort out between them. We should wait to hear what Jay has to say before throwing any more stones. SlimVirgin 17:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I see no harm in discussing the issue publicly. It's preferable to let the community review this properly rather than rely on backroom deals. Nor should Jayjg's actions be off-limits to public discussion, particularly as this seems to be a recurrent pattern of behaviour on his part. There's no code of admin omertà and nor should there be. IMO, CJCurrie acted completely properly in bringing here. It's the best way of getting the input of people without axes to grind. -- ChrisO 18:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It's the sound of axes busily grinding that makes me say CJCurrie should have raised it with Jay directly. SlimVirgin 21:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, there is an assumption of "back room deals". This should have been worked out between Doc and Jay first. Doesn't stop CJCurrie from bringing it up for public debate, but this is the Administrator noticeboard: this is not deletion review. CJCurrie was not personally harmed by an admin's action: he's got no standing to bring an "investigation" against Jayjg. CJCurrie's appropriate action was to bring this up at DRV, not here. The only person with standing to bring a complaint here is Doc, IMHO. If I'm not clear enough, let me be more so: if you have a problem with a deletion, you go to deletion review. That's what it is there for. Not here.⇒ SWATJester 19:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't much care what happens to the article (otherwise I'd be commenting in the DRV). But I don't think CJCurrie can be faulted for bringing this up here. Someone who disagreed with Doc's closing should take it to DRV, that's obvious. But Jayjg's overruling was so surprising that it's not obvious to take to DRV. It looks like the beginning of a wheel war, and that's a valid topic of discussion at ANI. I don't want to see users chastized for bringing up an issue that concerns them. It's not always obvious to every user what is the proper discussion area for every topic. Rather than saying someone has "no standing" to raise a topic, I'd rather users feel welcome to bring anything into the sunshine without being scolded for it. And I certainly don't accept the notion that only certain people can raise certain issues. — coelacan — 20:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Very well put coelacan!! I couldn't agree with you more. MetsFan76 22:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

User talk pages communication can hardly be seen as "backroom deals," more like the first step. I also note that this article seems strikingly similar in many respects to the Military equipment of Israel entry I authored a few months ago (although, I do think there is room for a United States military aid to Israel one; maybe not in its current from, but as an encyclopedic subject). El_C 18:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Ordinarily I'd agree, but there's too much POV-pushing, cliquery and outright bullying associated with Arab-Israeli topics on Misplaced Pages to make that approach a satisfactory one. This sort of thing seems to be a recurring, maybe even systemic, issue. In this particular case, admin powers appear to have been used in a brusque, unilateral and aggressive fashion in an immensely controversial topic area - not for the first time. No backroom deal is going to resolve the bad feeling that causes (it's not as if Doc was the only person involved - for the record, I'm wholly uninvolved in this incident). The only real solution here is for everyone (not just Jayjg) to de-escalate, act more thoughtfully and be restrained in using admin powers. Otherwise we're going to be back here yet again in the future with more of the same sort of complaints. -- ChrisO 19:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) ChrisO, that seems to me to be the fault of the people involved with editing Arab-Israeli topics moreso than the administrators getting involved. I won't attempt to hide my POV on this: I believe that Israeli and Middle Eastern related articles are systemically attacked by certain editors pushing either a pro-Arab or anti-Israeli (depending on the article) POV. I also believe that when they are called out on their POV pushing by appropriate admin action, their immediate response is "This is just POV bias pushing by zionist admins trying to hate on Arabs." I've seen too many incidents where editors have been attacked and accused of things like "working for mossad" or being "cover ups for the Jews". Granted, there have been issues from the other direction as well, but much of this seems a case to me where you have a very loud, very vocal interest group pushing a POV, and then claiming that anyone who disagrees with them is biased, any admins involved are abusing their powers, etc. etc. It's disruptive, and now it is starting to find its way onto AN/I, which should be a bastion against such disruptive editing, and I'm sick of it. I'm not excusing anything that Jayjg may have done because I'm not that familiar with it, I'm just simply pointing out that you're right: there IS a systemic issue, and that all complaints against administrators in middle eastern topics, specifically arab-israeli topics, should be taken with a hefty grain of salt, and the claims advanced by editors on such topics be vetted before being assumed at face value. ⇒ SWATJester 19:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I agree 100%. I don't think I'd disagree with a single word you've said, actually. But there's also a danger that admins involved in controversial topics can end up in a siege mentality and thinking that they're the last line of defence against a rabble of POV-pushers. I should know - I've been there myself as a veteran editor of Balkans articles, dealing with aggressive Serbian, Croatian, Albanian, Macedonian and Greek editors for nearly four years now. In the end, I came to believe that the way to deal with that sort of thing was to gain the trust of the mainstream editors on both sides by being fair, being willing to look at both sides of an argument, insisting on the use of reliable sources and being restrained in using admin tools (and deferring to other admins where it could be seen as improper for me to use my tools). It seems to have worked; I now get editors from the various sides regularly asking me for assistance in resolving issues. The bottom line is that one needs to build trust rather than stoke confrontation. -- ChrisO 20:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There should also be a United States military aid to Colombia, of course. El_C 19:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You might be interested in my proposal at . I've been trolling Jane's for relevant info and will have a go at creating US-Israel military relations as a prototype for a "US-<foo> military relations" series of articles covering a standardised range of topics including military aid. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this suggestion. -- ChrisO 19:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be very useful to have these sort of subarticles when the main -Relations article becomes too lengthy. El_C 20:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

concerns about harassment, personal attacks, wiki-stalking

I've recently added clean-up templates to Aldol condensation and Overman rearrangement because I'm concerned about the lack of any introduction to the articles. These were removed by editors who made no actual improvements to the articles, but in my opinion, removed them because they didn'tw want to fix the article. However, User:Quale has reverted the templates , , claiming I was being disruptive. However, I think that this is an unfair accusation that is based on his personal animosity for me, which is demonstrated in several personal attacks he has made against me. See: , where it's clear that he has developed some sort of personal animosity against me because I have concerns about the way Chess articles are handled. These concerns are similar to the ones these science pages have as well, but simply reverting them? I feel it is a harassment concern, and since I've tried Wikiquette without getting any kind of change in his behavior or attitude, I don't know what else to do. I don't want this problem to get worse. Mister.Manticore 05:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Problem continues. with a revert claiming a request for further information be added to an article is disruptive. Mister.Manticore 07:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you are taking critcism far too personally. Also, putting a {{npa2}} template the talkpage of someone as experienced as Quale is... well it's just not a good idea, especially in the midst of a debate with him. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Um, he's clearly engaged in personal attacks against me. I'm sorry, but when somebody makes personal attacks against me. I'm going to ask him to not make personal attacks against me. I tried politeness in the discussion. It continued. Sorry, but it's wrong behavior, and perhaps if you were truly neutral and unbiased yourself, you'd see it as the problem it is. Maybe you don't care that I feel I'm being attacked, but experienced or not, hostile attitudes are bad things, and that's exactly what I see. But to you, perhaps he's a friend, and you'd rather criticize me. Thank you, but no, I'd rather hear from somebody not involved in the situation themselves. You're not. So, please, step out. Your attempt at participation is only increasing my concern. Mister.Manticore 12:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Requesting temporary block of IP 74.123.39.201

Some user using this IP 74.123.39.201 has attracted warning messages from various users( See User talk:74.123.39.201). All edits are to Islam related articles and cannot always be termed vandalism. In fact in the case of Medina he/she has actually undone vandalism by another editor. However this user is being uncooperative by removing tags and making unwanted, sometimes haphazard edits. He/she has been ignoring warnings. A temporary block on the IP may be necessary to get them to the discussion table. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• I reviewed their edit history. Warned repeatedly for vandalism. Removing tags from pages with no explanation whatsoever. Inserting various verses of the Qu'ran into articles. No dialog with anyone whatsoever. Behaviour continued after last warn. I've given them a 24-hour block - Alison ☺ 05:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Some sock puppet accusers are more equal than others

If I were to do this on someone else's talk page, I'd be banned. This editor? Above the wiki law judging from his/her posting history . I'm not the first to get this sort of harassment on my talk pages.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Piperdown (talk • contribs)

Just a simple question I asked, based on your editing history. Your retort was as I expected.--MONGO 06:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

That simple question is not generally tolerated from those of us who aren't playing ball with the corruption here. I'd be banned for it, you won't be. Checkuser me, and allow me the same leeway to request checkusers on editors who I know are sockpuppets without me being banned for doing so. Ain't gonna happen.Piperdown 06:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What corruption is that?--MONGO 07:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This question looks to me like it's a badly worded question, buit one which needs to be asked (in a nicer way). The wording What's your real account (the bold there I put in for emphissis) looks to me like an uncivil way to ask the question. Od Mishehu 07:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If you don't like the question, don't answer it. If you don't want questions like that, you should really attempt to be more like a new user, it isn't hard to do so. --Deskana (fry that thing!) 11:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Davesmith33 (resolved)

Davesmith33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been disrupting Top Gear related articles for weeks now. He was recently blocked for one week. As soon as the block ended, he has continued to revert war. He has also been warned numerous times, by at least 3 different people (check the history of his talk page) for misleading edit summaries. He keeps claiming that he is reverting "vandalism" when in actuality it is him making a contentious edit, going against consensus. He has also been claiming that his version is the one agreed on by consensus, when in fact it is not (see Talk:Top Gear (current format)). Regardless of the edit warring, the misleading edit summaries are disruption. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 10:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Myself and Gwernol are keeping an eye on him. He's a couple of edits away from another block. – Steel 10:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Steel for being on the ball. Cheers. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 10:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The inevitable has happened, let's tag this as resolved. – Steel 10:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Systematic wikilinking of years

Earthelemental99 (talk · contribs) is wikilinking all years in articles en masse, appearing to start from letter Z. While it was disputed area in the past, I believe that WP:DATE still discourages that practice. Should we take an action? Duja► 10:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Doing any other Bobblewik-like things? - David Gerard 10:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

AFAICT, no. Just wikilinking every year in sight, including references, image captions etc. Duja► 11:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Just rollback and warn whenever necessary. Sole year linking had previously been discussed (see various Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) archives), and while there isn't consensus to remove on sight, it became agreed they should only be relevant in the context (e.g. 2004 in sports). This is highly inconsistent with that, and is likely done by an unauthorized bot. Michaelas 11:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Rolled back and warned in mildest terms I managed to come upon. Huh, most of his previous activity was changing British spellings to American... Duja► 14:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear: Bobblewik was delinking years (and being rolled back). Thincat 13:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

He's still doing it. JuJube 20:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

He is still delinking years, but not enmasse. And why shouldn't he delink years if there is no context? David D. (Talk) 20:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Abuse-only anon user

See Special:Contributions/91.105.170.98. How would I go about requesting a sock-puppet check? Andy Mabbett 13:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You can file a request over at WP:SSP. Just follow the directions - Alison ☺ 13:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

IP: 58.178.194.136

I'm a little concerned that the block on this IP was a little hasty and even undeserved. They have only made four edits total. The first edit they made is that of the typical new user/IP who doesn't really understand policy yet, but they were warned with a level two warning for it. It was deserved and the situation was handled appropriately. Their next edit was combined vandalism/spelling fix with an edit summary of only describing a spelling fix, but their edit directly after that deleted the vandalism in their previous edit. So, while they did vandalize the page and tried to hide it, they obviously realized they should delete it. Their fourth edit was to contest the block (though their excuse is, admittedly, rather lame).

They were not warned at all for the second case of vandalism, let alone given a warning level of three/four where it states they can actually be blocked for disruptive edits. They were just blocked for "repeated abuse of editing privileges" yet they haven't technically shown this, nor had they been properly warned for it, meaning, they could have very well not known that they could be blocked for it. I just think the block was hasty and a little mis-directed. I think this is a user who could easily learn the error of their ways (as is evident by them deleting their vandalism) if they are given guidance. --pIrish 14:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What follows is not representative of anyone else's thinking; it is only my opinion. It's a 31 hour block. They can potentially find guidance when the block expires. They won't do that, though, as evidenced by the blatant lie in their unblock request. They vandalized at 12:24 and 12:30, and undid one of those at 12:34. They were blocked at 12:39. This block very likely prevented further vandalism, as that vandalize-and-revert pattern is usually not the end of a vandalism cycle, only a test phase. It is possible that they would have stopped after a level-4 warning; many vandals do. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over them getting the message with a 31 hour block. That's just me. We'll see what others think. — coelacan — 14:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm not so much contesting the block as I am concerned that they were blocked without even receiving a level three or four warning, thus, they didn't necessarily know their actions could potentially cause them to be blocked. Maybe I'm just a softie, but I think they have a right to, at the very least, receive a level three warning first before being blocked so they've at least got the knowledge that they could be blocked. After that, they've really got no excuse for their behavior. I know over at AIV, they often won't block someone until they've at least received a final warning. This person didn't even get a level three. If I were to report them over at AIV, would they still have been blocked? I'm honestly just curious at this point. --pIrish 14:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I probably wouldn't have blocked yet in this particular case. Level-2 and level-3 warnings are complete wastes of time, but a level-4 warning stops some people and is thus a preventative measure. I will point out though that strictly speaking, not a single warning is necessary if the vandalism is egregious and fast. The major concern is "is this ongoing" rather than "does the vandal know they might be blocked?" And to be honest I cannot imagine anyone not knowing that they can be blocked. The kid has surely used forums or chans or blog comment sections and learned that crap like this can result in blocking. Misplaced Pages is actually pretty generous; 31 hours is a rather short time. In any case, if you're concerned about this block, the best place to bring it up first is User talk:Atlant, rather than here. — coelacan — 15:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. That's really all I was curious about. Sorry if I didn't bring it up on their page first. In the past, when I've brought concerns up on individual talk pages, I've had my concerns brushed off and not had my questions answered. However, I've always gotten detailed and informative responses from here so that's the biggest reason I came here first. Also, I wanted varied responses, of course the admin will defend their block, so I wanted responses from someone not directly involved, which is exactly what I got. Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions. --pIrish 15:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Actaully in my experience admins do not necessarily defend blocks if you question them. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 15:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"I guess I'm not so much contesting the block as I am concerned that they were blocked without even receiving a level three or four warning, thus, they didn't necessarily know their actions could potentially cause them to be blocked." And we care why? If they know their vandalisms will get them blocked, and they somehow care, then that's a good thing, but you have no evidence or proof that they would suddenly flip over to making valid edits; I on the other hand have four edits showing that he has never made one. 31 hours is nothing, he can wait a day. Nothing is lost by him. If he truly wanted to be a valid editor, then he will happily sit in the penalty box, instead of thinking, "Wow, they stopped me from editing for adding "parrots like to eat dick" to an article? I'll NEVER add my ultraintelligent, well-referenced additions to this encyclopedia!" Please. --Golbez 15:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Your tone here is rather condescending and I don't appreciate it. Please treat me with respect and answer my questions in an appropriate manner as coelacan has done. I am not 10 years old; I deserve to be spoken to like an adult. Technically, they didn't necessarily know that they would get him blocked because he wasn't left with a warning that told him this. You really shouldn't make the assumption that he does know this because there is always a chance that he doesn't. Also, one of those edits removed their previous vandalism. Sure, they may have just vandalized again (and probably would have), but where's the proof that they would? This edit, without an incidence of vandalism after, is technically a valid edit. He also corrected spelling (really he changed from the British to the American spelling), but I won't really bring that one up since it was coupled with an edit of vandalism. --pIrish 16:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for my tone, but we really, really need to stop coddling vandals here. No, we don't need to work our way up the test template hierarchy, that usually just wastes the time of admins and the integrity of the encyclopedia. There's nothing wrong with giving a clue-bat hit to someone who has made nothing but vandal edits. Please tell me why we should care if he knew he would get blocked. Usually, when I do bad things on a website, I probably expect to eventually be stopped from what I'm doing. Same thing with real life. Common sense. I don't see why we can't expect that from newbies. --Golbez 16:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yikes man, ever hear of Assuming good faith? This user made some very, very obvious test edits. And undid one of them! How did he even end up blocked? He tested. Was warned. He then made a combined good/bad edit. My assumption here is that he then read the warning and took out the bad. This is WP:BITE at its worst-case-scenario. -M 16:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

My main reason for responding to this was to respond to the line, "they didn't necessarily know their actions could potentially cause them to be blocked," and why this matters. You do bad things, you get hit with a stick. And I see that he vandalized after receiving his first warning, so I think your view of the facts may be incorrect. 12:24: vandalized. 12:26: first warning. 12:30: vandalized. 12:34: removed vandalism. 12:40: second warning. But I can see what you mean, he may not have gotten the "you have a message!" until after he vandalized.

Assuming good faith means assuming good faith with their edits; it doesn't mean assuming that someone will stop being a vandal just because they got a warning. It doesn't mean assuming good faith that they are only a vandal because they don't know there are consequences to their actions. There's a vast difference between someone making a good-faith test or copyvio, and someone adding "parrots like to eat dicks lol". That's not good faith, and I won't assume it is. It was their responsibility to figure out that such activity is frowned upon.

I have, however, roped myself into defending the block - personally, I would have probably not blocked after seeing his self-revision, nor after the first edit. Again, my main reason for entering this conversation was to challenge the assertion that vandals would stop vandalizing if they thought they were going to be blocked. (It's issues like these that are causing me to use more warnings as of late, which is a very good thing, but only in situations where I see any good faith at all; where I don't, they go into the corner after multiple hits.) --Golbez 17:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible that the new-message bar didn't come up for the anon in question (see bugzilla:9213)? --ais523 17:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

That's certainly possible, but if so then the same thing would happen even for level-4 warnings and they're going to get blocked anyway. I'm not sure there's anything for admins to do differently in the meantime. — coelacan — 21:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikignosis block for legal threat

I've just blocked WikiGnosis (talk · contribs) for continuing to make legal threats. The latest was this edit which used a cutesy rhyming thing to try and get around the whole NLT issue. Specifically, the user had been repeatedly warned about legal threats (see his/her talk page, plus an item on Durova (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)'s talk) so he/she described a behavior someone was doing as "starts with L, rhymes with bible". I've read this as a legal threat, and invite scrutiny of the block. I've counseled the user on his/her talk page to review WP:NLT and appeal once he/she is willing to commit to abiding by WP:NLT. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 14:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Good job. Chilling effects are bad. ⇒ SWATJester 16:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Upon further review, the user had been going around deleting ANYTHING potentially critical claiming Jimbo Wales authorizes him to. This includes things that wouldn't even fall under the scope of WP:BLP. ⇒ SWATJester 16:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

For example and . Also, after checking some of his edits, I seem to recall having run across his name on AN/I before. ⇒ SWATJester 16:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry on Sir William Arbuthnot, 2nd Baronet AfD

David Lauder has just !voted on this AfD, despite earlier !voting from IP 81.151.246.175. This IP has previously edited the Morham article, and the only other contributors to that article were David Lauder and a bot. The IP is a British Telecom in the London area, as can be seen here. David Lauder uses a British Telecom IP, as can be seen here. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I deny this bonkers charge. I live in Scotland and if you look at the map shown for the location of the IP address you will see the strength of coastline between Edinburgh and Newcastle! (Second last pointer, above). I have no doubt British Telecom service more people than myself and on similar IPs; and probably they have a central server. Yes, I set up the article on Morham and I am pleased indeed that someone has added something intelligent to it. Must it always be me? The complainant is a very consistant supporter of User:Vintagekits, and my personal feeling is that these people do not act at all in WP:Good faith. If they really have a seriously worthwhile complaint about the vast amount of effort I have contributed to Misplaced Pages I would be interested to see it. But I do not see going around making every attempt to eliminate from Misplaced Pages those they have taken a dislike to as a legitimate occupation. My work and any comments is there for all to see and evaluate. David Lauder 19:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid there's more evidence to prove your use of IPs to try and !votestack in discussions. How about this one in another AfD you were involved in? Or how about this one in a discussion involving honorific prefixes you were involved in? There's also another edit from that IP pushing the POV you're always trying to push.

I assume it's just coincidence that the IP edited Morham, an article that's only ever been edited by you and a bot? I assume it's just coincidence that the IP supported the retention of the article about your close friend User:Kittybrewster? The duck test says otherwise. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Please revert a monobook

User:Pupster21 seems to be having a stroke of bad luck with his monobook (User:Pupster21/monobook.js). This is the second time he's tried to add a script and trashed his ability to log in doing so. See WP:VPT. We confirmed last time that it is indeed the same person posting from Pupster210 and he only uses this account when his monobook is fried. Could somebody please revert it? Valentinian 16:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

sure, I just blanked it. alphachimp 16:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Much appreciated. Thanks! Valentinian 16:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

69.67.229.50 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Seems to be using the sandbox as a platform to soapbox, and is clearly violating WP:BLP, should something be done?--VectorPotential 16:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• It would be nice if someone else could deal with this--VectorPotential 16:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Blocked. – Luna Santin (talk) 18:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Rollback abuse at WP:FAR

I hope this doesn't get escalated, but here's the situation. A Featured Article was submitted to FAR. Various comments were made, and the issues were resolved. Then, 2 weeks later, unbelievably, User:Marskell advances the article from FAR to FARC. I contested the unnecessarily hasty move, and then moved it back to FAR. He then rolled back my edit without any explanation or reply, abusing the rollback button. — BRIAN0918 • 2007-04-26 16:56Z

"Rollback abuse"? What is that? And what do you mean "escalated"? Are you threatening to wheel war?

Marskell was just maintaining WP:FAR, like he has done for months, with little or no thanks. The discussion of Great Lakes Storm of 1913 has been going on for over two weeks, and some points would appear to still need to be addressed, so the decision needs to be made whether to leave the review open, or close the review speedily, or move it to the next stage of review, which is FARC. Rather than "escalating" this storm in a teacup by bringing it here, why not discuss with Marskell at User talk:Marskell if you have a problem with what he has done, or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review if you think there is a problem with the process, or at Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Great Lakes Storm of 1913 if you disagree with his substantive comments on the article? -- ALoan (Talk) 17:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Way to assume good faith there... "Rollback abuse" is a very common term, meaning that someone is using the rollback button for nonvandalism, without explanation. As for "escalated", I meant that I didn't want anyone to waste too much time on this; why did you assume I meant that I was going to wheel war??? First, Marskell doesn't own WP:FAR, so he can't just use rollback as he pleases. Second, the FAR discussion has not "been going on for over 2 weeks", it lasted a day or two, and has sat unedited for 2 weeks. I've already discussed it at the FAR page. — BRIAN0918 • 2007-04-26 17:31Z

Perhaps we could all just assume the assumption of good faith, eh? I have no idea what "escalated" means in this context. You complain about a rolling back and say that the situation may be escalated, but leave us to guess how. Edit/reversion/wheel war? Blocking? Opening an arbitration case?

Anyway, no-one has died - perhaps rolling you back without explanation was poor form; on the other hand, perhaps pressing the big red button marked "ANI" was too. I have suggested plenty of more appropriate venues to discuss the substantive issues above. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You asked to talk, so come back and talk. I've apologized on the review—you're right, I shouldn't have used rollback. I was planning to comment immediately and then we tripped over each other commenting on the page. Marskell 17:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Er, what were you coming here to ask for, Brian? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

A third opinion, someone to watch WP:FAR in case it does escalate for some reason (such as if he rolled back again without explanation). — BRIAN0918 • 2007-04-26 17:34Z

Plenty of people are watching. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Brian, I did explain. Within fifteen minutes. You brought it here within five. I mean c'mon. I'm sitting here talking to you. Marskell 17:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism from 67.151.241.140 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Seems this IP was blocked earlier for vandalism, and is now back online. Since being unblocked, users from this IP have added things like "dick in the ass" in Thalassemia, "snoop doggy dog wuz here" on Ethnic cleansing and "(joe banged *******)....11 times" on Cold war (****= someone's name). I don't believe people from this IP address can be trusted to control themselves.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zyryab (talk • contribs) --Zyryab 17:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• WP:AIV--VectorPotential 17:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Block of User:CINEGroup

I just blocked him for 24 hours for WP:3RR violations on Walther P22. But as he has already accused me of being involved in the editing dispute (I am not) and wikistalking I thought I'd bring it here for review. The diffs for the 3RR violation are on his talk page. I'll be honest, this kid is getting on my last nerve. Dina 18:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Ispy1981&diff=prev&oldid=112994770

BTW, that post was made by an anon user, who later went by 69.132.199.100 or CineWorld. Notice anything similar? Addendum: 69.132.199.100 was blocked for 6 months by NewYorkBrad. --Ispy1981 18:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• Supporting the block and counting. -- FayssalF - 18:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Block of 71.217.39.122

This user keeps creating unnecessary articles for the Grand Theft Auto topics (despite WP:FICT) and is constantly getting aggrivated towards other users including myself. This user is determined to do what he wants and keeps reverting back to the appropriately deleted material and I've recently noticed that he is commiting vandalism on other unrelated articles too. .:Alex:. 18:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• You're replacing the prod tags. This is bad (tm). Use AfD. I already talked to the editor about his nasty message on his own talk page, but there's nothing really wrong with anything else he's done so far. JuJube 20:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sock/meatpuppet theatre

Currently, there is a push on by several editors to include mention of an album by Lee Nysted in the article on Matt Walker (drummer), who purportedly played on said album. This is a continuation of a situation begun at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Lee Nysted Experience, during which Mr. Nysted, backed up by several other editors, attempted to argue that through virtue of a large presence on Google , he and his music were notable and should be included in the encyclopedia. At the time, it was noted that a lot of places sell the album, there are many mentions of it on sites that generally allow user-submitted information (much of which involved a press release), and various other techniques that, IMO, looked a lot like search-engine result inflation. (Links such as this, where mention of a song and links to Nysted’s album can be found in the comments section of an unrelated blog, for example.)

The AFD led to a checkuser case, discussed at AN, which came back with a positive result. He and several socks were blocked, but Nysted then went on and was unblocked with a promise to behave himself. He then went on and started a short campaign against the CheckUser system, discussed again at AN, that resulted, in early March, with his being indef-blocked once again.

Now, we have several users who have surfaced and are trying to get Nysted’s album noted on the aforementioned Matt Walker’s page. These users, notably including 67.186.123.21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 63.93.197.67 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), and 12.35.96.66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) – two of which resolve to A.G. Edwards, an investment firm that Nysted has previously claimed association with (and, in fact, I’ve managed to find correlating evidence to, on the second page of this PDF). 67.186.123.21 (which resolves to Lake Forest, IL) has signed at various times as “WebmasterSD,” who has now registered an account. A look through the discussion at Talk:Matt Walker (drummer) will give an indication of how this discussion has gone. The editors and IPs have argued that a discography should not be concerned with notability (despite the disc not being mentioned on Walker’s own page, according to one editor), have declared editors who have previously interacted with Nysted as not being neutral and failed to assume good faith, have suggested that all the editors against Nysted are part of some mysterious MySpace cabal, and generally conducted themselves much as Nysted and his supporters have in the past (as indicated in this deleted rant. WebmasterSD has also commented numerous times that he “practices law in Illinois,” which I suggest is an attempt at a chilling effect on the discussion.

Previous ANI discussions of this current wave are here and here.

I bring this to the attention of the noticeboard because, while I have just filed a checkuser request, I suspect it may come back inconclusive because of the company IPs involved. It may require an uninvolved admin or two to look through the evidence as to whether this is in fact sock/meatpuppetry and to make some decisions regarding how to deal with the editors involved. Thanks. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• I too would urge at least a couple of admins to look into this as well, preferably some who have no previous interaction with Nysted or related content. I've been dealing with this since yesterday and apparently the fact that I previously had interaction with Nysted (lifted an autoblock; discussed AFD canvassing by another editor related to Mario Party articles), semi-protected the article, and opened an RFC makes me not an objective party here. I'd welcome another set of eyes here and review of my actions at Matt Walker (drummer) if need be.--Isotope23 19:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless there's more going on than meets the eye, this seems like nothing more complicated than self-promotion and block evasion. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right... it's not complicated (the A.G. Edwards IPs are at the very least clear meatpuppetry and quite possibly block evasion as well; the other IP editor quite likely knows Nysted), but given the fact that it is being claimed that I'm not objective and that I have some sort of axe to grind here I'd appreciate another admin taking a look and taking whatever action they feel is appropriate.--Isotope23 19:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I've indef blocked WebmasterSD and given the IPs 24 hour blocks. They're all sockpuppets or meatpuppets of Nysted, and since he's been indef blocked already, this is block evasion. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Quick work. Thank you. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yup, good call. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 21:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Feeding Trolls via defcon Template

I am posting this here to get some community input on this. I know there is no oiffical policy preventing naming specific disruptive editors in the DEFCON meter, but I find it in bad taste. I have asked editors to not do so, however several of them believe it appropriate to add the specific vandals name to the highly visible DEFCON meter. My arguments against it are 1.) the defcon meter is highly visible, so chances the vandal will know he is getting attention are high. 2.) just egging the vandal on with "notoriety" will not encourage them to quit. I however am posting this question here to get some community input. If the community deems it appropriate to include specific vandal names in the template, then I will drop the matter. Until then, I believe it will cause more trouble than good. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, in the spirit of WP:DENY. I mean, the best option would be to just delete the thing, but unfortunately people like it. – Steel 19:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I sort of like the Defcon template in general, but I agree, individual vandals should never be named on it. Dina 19:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Chrislk02 ..denying them is the best answer and we dont want to motivate the vandals, the names of vandals shouldn't be added to the Defcon..--Cometstyles 19:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I would support the deletion of the DEFCON templates.↔NMajdan•talk 19:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I am getting to that point. When it gets elevated to level 1 or 2 because of socks, or vandals, that just empowers them. However, it is highly debated and I doubt it would pass a TFD. All I am asking is for input on never including specific vandal names. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course we should never use vandal's names on the defcon template. It does more good then harm normally, but when you add in names that opens up a can of worms.--Wizardman 19:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I would support an MFD on the defcon templates, although I'm aware the likely result is "no consensus". But I think that we can muster a consensus that particular vandals should not be named. That can only make things worse. — coelacan — 19:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying we should add specific usernames to the defcon, however Real96 left a message their saying about disruptive socks causing trouble and it was then at level 2, that was appropriate but I dont think it is necessary to specify certain names.Tellyaddict 20:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

{{Wdefcon}} getting deleted won't be happening (it was just speedily deleted and then restored, with a big brouhaha about it, the other day). I don't think that its mere existence goes against WP:DENY, but naming them most certainly does. 20:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah, it shouldn't have been speedied. I don't think that precludes an MFD discussion though. — coelacan — 21:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's silly to send it through TfD again; it's already survived four times. As near as I can tell, arguments for its deletion range in variety from "I don't like it" to unfounded speculation that the vandals are actually coordinating their attacks because of the template. At most, we'll get another "no consensus" result. I think we've all got better things to do with our time. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Chris. I've seen this in action recently with a high-profile sock and, yes, WP:DENY works. Naming them only empowers and encourages them - Alison ☺ 20:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Please take this discussion to the talk page. We are NOT discussing this silly thing here. Unless you want an administrator to delete it, this has nothing to do with admins.--Doc 21:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:Omar3.jpg

Max Thayer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has continually uploaded the image Image:Omar3.jpg after it has been deleted, and has done so under the same faulty rationale. The user has been warned in the past to stop uploading images with bogus fair use claims. Could someone please handle this? 19:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Done--Wizardman 19:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Pagemove and miscellaneous vandalism at FCCLA

Had quite a bit of vandalism, including pagemove vandalism, at the Family,_Career,_and_Community_Leaders_of_America page--right now it's pointed to Future Cooking and Cleaning Ladies of America. As an anon user I don't have the access to straighten up the mess. 65.185.203.89 19:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't either, as a non-admin, as the user vandalized the redirect. I'll put a db tag on it, but it's the best I can do right now. Admin help asked for, and, seeing this is clearly a return user, someone please block the vandal. Part Deux 19:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I will try to fix this after I stop laughing. — coelacan — 19:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It's fixed. --WinHunter 19:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I've semiprotected the page for two days. Shadow1 (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as how pagemoves are only possible for users with an autoconfirmed flag, how does sprotection stop this from happening again?--VectorPotential 19:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I've applied move=sysop protection as well. — coelacan — 19:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You two are fast. I sent the vandals to their rooms with no dinner. — coelacan — 19:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Just as long as you weren't giggling while you did so. Ruins the "evil admin" reputation. ;) 65.185.203.89 21:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

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