| Revision as of 06:21, 15 August 2024 editDGtal (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,730 edits →List of Israeli Ashkenazi Jews: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 05:35, 13 December 2024 edit undoBearian (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Rollbackers84,444 edits →Kav LaOved: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic | ||
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== Canvassing == | ||
| It looks like there was (has been?) a large scale canvassing operation targeting Israel-related topics on Misplaced Pages, see . The first part of the article is not very convincing in my opinion but coordinating edits on Discord seems like a clear violation of the policy. ]<sub>]</sub> 19:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| A non-] editor (]) has disputed my revert (on the basis of ]) of their changes at ]. I see the need for updates but will not undo my revert due to other issues with the edits. I don't have the bandwidth to address this, and am therefore notifying the project. See discussion at ]. Thanks, ] <sup>]</sup> 20:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :It looks like they mention two different groups, the first they don't seem to name, the second being Tech for Palestine. It seems like most of Tech for Palestine's activities are transparent, including some past on-wiki coordination (see ]), but more concerningly, there's also coordination on a now-private Discord channel. It seems most evidence was deleted, though there are a few screenshots like in . {{yo|BilledMammal}} might have more information. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 20:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <small>Also, I encourage further discussion (if there is any) to occur here or at ] to avoid bugging Valereee. Thanks, ] <sup>]</sup> 20:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::This isn't a forum, if there is evidence of something sanctionable, do the necessary. ] (]) 21:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | == Requested move at ] == | ||
| ::{{yo|Amayorov|Sean.hoyland}} just cc'ing you based on your related ]. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 21:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. |
||
| ::See also — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 22:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 10:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree the Tech for Palestine's channel for Misplaced Pages editing has a high likelihood of constituting improper canvassing. However, the issue would be stale if the channel is inactive. I have asked on the Discord server the status of their Misplaced Pages activities. ] <i><sup style="display:inline-flex;rotate:7deg;">]</sup></i> 14:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::They say they discontinued their Misplaced Pages editing channel due to doxxing. I believe the issue to be now stale. ] <i><sup style="display:inline-flex;rotate:7deg;">]</sup></i> 12:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <-Yes, I already read it. I learned that I am one of the top 30 members of this powerful group of pro-Hamas editors hijacking Misplaced Pages. So, I already know the author is either a bit dopey, dishonest or both. | |||
| * There is, no doubt, plenty of offsite coordination going on and there has been for years. We already know the use of deception and canvassing is relatively common among Israel supporters here of course, has been for well over a decade, and is seen as justified from an in-world perspective, so it wouldn't be surprising at all if these kinds of activities existed with the opposite valence. | |||
| * My view is that little to nothing can be done about it because it is not currently possible to prevent off-site coordination or any determined individual from editing in the topic area due to various technical and wiki-cultural constraints. For example, I believe that one of the people banned in the ] is currently active in the topic area, and Misplaced Pages's rather unserious approach to ban evasion, or the ranking of privacy over honesty, means that it can't be addressed. That's okay. Nobody died. | |||
| * Given the technical/cultural limits that can't be changed it seems, I would rather there was an emphasis on enforcing compliance with the Wikimedia Universal Code of Conduct's position that unacceptable behavior includes "systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view" i.e. biased editing/activism. The normalization of biased editing/advocacy means that you naturally produce conjugate sets of editors with opposite valence forming something like an autocatalytic set or a self-sustaining fire. But again, anyone blocked for biased editing/advocacy/coordination/canvassing etc. can easily return with a new account and quickly become extended confirmed using numerous tools that Misplaced Pages provides to new users to get them started. | |||
| * On the article itself, it is hard for me to take it seriously as these kinds of conspiratorial, casually defamatory, attack pieces camouflaged as rational analyses remind me so much of antisemitic conspiracy theories and conversations I've had with street people over the years, including a man who believed he was John the Baptist. The primarily utility of these kinds of attack articles and low-quality media reporting about on-wiki-things for me personally, as someone interested in the dynamics of the topic area, is that they are a useful reminder of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect and they help to identify actors with an elevated susceptibility to misinformation and manipulation and/or a willingness to generate or inject disinformation into Misplaced Pages's systems either directly or by employing external vectors. ] (]) 03:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks for your response. Indeed a lot of the article seems like guesswork, maybe poor guesswork. Just wondering if anyone had dug into this further to determine what actual evidence exists. | |||
| == Feedback: Regional history of the Negev == | |||
| :To the extent that their is evidence of stealth canvassing, I think it should be acted on regardless of the editor's ideology. Certainly ban enforcement has its challenges, but that doesn't seem like enough reason to ignore rulebreaking. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 05:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm also wondering if anyone has managed to have a detailed look at the Tech for Palestine activities to compile actual evidence of policy violations, and if not, why not. I guess the answer is no/not yet or else evidence would have been presented in the PIA5 discussions or at AE for specific editors by now since that information has been available for a while. I may be a lot more cynical than you when it comes to enforcing rules in PIA because I see sanctions/remedies as mostly performative nowadays. They appear to have little to no actual impact on the dynamics of the topic area over time unless they are machine enforceable like EC protection, and even then, the benefit is very limited. People enforcing rules in PIA doesn't seem to work. The main benefits of enforcement seem to be that it can be weaponized and exploited by partisan actors to keep the fires burning/take out perceived enemies and it provides reinforcement learning so that people get better at exploiting weaknesses in the system over time. I also think that much of what happens in the topic area, rule breaking or not, is not visible/goes unnoticed/is given a pass. This is evident from the number of edits ban evading accounts manage to make before they are blocked. ] (]) 07:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == RFC: ] == | |||
| Hi,<br />] has asked me to draft something on the agricultural history of the Negev. Since there is no comprehensive history of the Negev that would have been necessary for this (and since the short sections on the history on the ] page do not align with current research), I have now drafted ] with a stronger focus on land use. Alexis thinks the page is ready for promotion to the mainspace. I am unsure for two reasons which are noted on the draft page. Would anyone like to give some feedback on this? ] (]) 13:49, 25 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| This RFC might interest contributors of this project. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 19:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ] has an ]== | |||
| == Sourcing for events at Kamal Adwan Hospital, Gaza == | |||
| <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>''']''' has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the ''']'''.<!-- Template:Rfc notice--> Thank you. ] (]) 22:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] You are invited to join the discussion at ]. ☆ <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family: Papyrus">]</span> (]) 03:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)<!-- ] --> | |||
| == Discussion at ] == | |||
| ] You are invited to join the discussion at ], which is within the scope of this WikiProject. <span style="color:#096450">''']''' ('']'' ★ '']'')</span> 15:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)<!--Template:WikiProject please see--> | |||
| == Discussion about "History of the Jews in ____" articles == | |||
| == Requested move at ] == | |||
| ⚫ | ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. |
||
| Please see ] dealing with articles about Jews and Jewish history. Thank you, ] (]) 17:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == An RFC of interest == | |||
| ==SHARAP== | |||
| Please see ]. ] (]) 12:56, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I wonder if anyone feels like writing an article about this contentious subject? Or failing that a section for ]? All the best: ''] ]''<small> 16:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| == D. Grossman == | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Could anyone of you please start an article on him here on en.wp? There is a lot of info sourced to him. I asked , but he seems o be on a wiki break. The article about him on Hebrew wp is https://he.wikipedia.org/דוד_גרוסמן_(גאוגרף) Cheers, ] (]) 21:01, 10 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| There are two discussion occurring at ] and ] discussing whether the article should be edited to further cover the opinions of ]. Editors are invited to participate. '']''<sup>]</sup> 06:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Articles about types of Jews as well as their histories == | |||
| == An RFC of interest == | |||
| Please see ]. ] (]) |
Please see the discussion at ]. Thank you, ] (]) 20:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
| == Requested move at ] == | == Requested move at ] == | ||
| ⚫ | ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ] (]) 17:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ⚫ | == Requested move at ] == | ||
| ⚫ | ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ] (]) 00:46, 12 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ⚫ | == ] == | ||
| ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. --] <small>''(])''</small> 11:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Please find sources. ] (]) 05:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Requested move at ] == | |||
| ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span><sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:13, 1 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Requested move at ] == | |||
| ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ] (]) 10:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Requested move at ] == | |||
| ] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ] (]) 10:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | == ] == | ||
| In the new page feed I came across the ], which is orphaned, there are mention in the news about ambushes, but I don't understand what makes this different, unique out side of the main articles. Is the article really needed? What are other peoples thoughts on it? ] (]) 10:30, 13 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Discussion that may be of interest to those here == | |||
| There is ] about moving ] to ]. ] (]) 12:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == List of Israeli Ashkenazi Jews == | |||
| I noticed that Misplaced Pages has articles on ] and a ]. | |||
| The division of Jewish people into separate lists based on whether they are Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, or Sephardi feels outdated, racist and unnecessarily divisive. In Israel, many people come from mixed backgrounds and do not fit neatly into these categories. Highlighting someone's Ashkenazi or Mizrahi origin as though it is a defining characteristic seems reductive and potentially harmful. | |||
| For example, listing someone like Gilad Shalit in the list of Ashkenazi Jews does nothing to enhance our understanding of who he is. It's not relevant to the broader picture of his life in any way. Moreover, by creating and maintaining these separate lists, we risk reinforcing racial divisions that don't serve any meaningful purpose and may, in fact, perpetuate harmful stereotypes. | |||
| Instead of maintaining these distinctions, it would be more appropriate to merge the lists into a single "List of Israeli Jews", and if the article becomes too long, break it down based on another category. ] (]) 20:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :By the way, I also noticed that for the majority of people on these lists, there is no citation showing that the ethnic origin of the person is as claimed, which could be a violation of biographies of living persons and other policies . I strongly think we need to reconsider the existence of these lists or at the very least, ensure proper sourcing for any claims made about individuals' ethnic origins. ] (]) 20:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I personally would delete them as pointless in the context of them containing (between them) over 70% of the population. It's like having a list of white British people. ] ]] 23:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I will happily support any request for deletion for these lists ] (]) 06:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 05:35, 13 December 2024
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Canvassing
It looks like there was (has been?) a large scale canvassing operation targeting Israel-related topics on Misplaced Pages, see here. The first part of the article is not very convincing in my opinion but coordinating edits on Discord seems like a clear violation of the policy. Alaexis¿question? 19:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like they mention two different groups, the first they don't seem to name, the second being Tech for Palestine. It seems like most of Tech for Palestine's activities are transparent, including some past on-wiki coordination (see here), but more concerningly, there's also coordination on a now-private Discord channel. It seems most evidence was deleted, though there are a few screenshots like in . @BilledMammal: might have more information. — xDanielx /C\ 20:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't a forum, if there is evidence of something sanctionable, do the necessary. Selfstudier (talk) 21:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Amayorov and Sean.hoyland: just cc'ing you based on your related discussion. — xDanielx /C\ 21:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- See also Inside the war over Israel at Misplaced Pages — xDanielx /C\ 22:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
- I agree the Tech for Palestine's channel for Misplaced Pages editing has a high likelihood of constituting improper canvassing. However, the issue would be stale if the channel is inactive. I have asked on the Discord server the status of their Misplaced Pages activities. Ca 14:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- They say they discontinued their Misplaced Pages editing channel due to doxxing. I believe the issue to be now stale. Ca 12:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
<-Yes, I already read it. I learned that I am one of the top 30 members of this powerful group of pro-Hamas editors hijacking Misplaced Pages. So, I already know the author is either a bit dopey, dishonest or both.
- There is, no doubt, plenty of offsite coordination going on and there has been for years. We already know the use of deception and canvassing is relatively common among Israel supporters here of course, has been for well over a decade, and is seen as justified from an in-world perspective, so it wouldn't be surprising at all if these kinds of activities existed with the opposite valence.
- My view is that little to nothing can be done about it because it is not currently possible to prevent off-site coordination or any determined individual from editing in the topic area due to various technical and wiki-cultural constraints. For example, I believe that one of the people banned in the CAMERA lobbying case is currently active in the topic area, and Misplaced Pages's rather unserious approach to ban evasion, or the ranking of privacy over honesty, means that it can't be addressed. That's okay. Nobody died.
- Given the technical/cultural limits that can't be changed it seems, I would rather there was an emphasis on enforcing compliance with the Wikimedia Universal Code of Conduct's position that unacceptable behavior includes "systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view" i.e. biased editing/activism. The normalization of biased editing/advocacy means that you naturally produce conjugate sets of editors with opposite valence forming something like an autocatalytic set or a self-sustaining fire. But again, anyone blocked for biased editing/advocacy/coordination/canvassing etc. can easily return with a new account and quickly become extended confirmed using numerous tools that Misplaced Pages provides to new users to get them started.
- On the article itself, it is hard for me to take it seriously as these kinds of conspiratorial, casually defamatory, attack pieces camouflaged as rational analyses remind me so much of antisemitic conspiracy theories and conversations I've had with street people over the years, including a man who believed he was John the Baptist. The primarily utility of these kinds of attack articles and low-quality media reporting about on-wiki-things for me personally, as someone interested in the dynamics of the topic area, is that they are a useful reminder of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect and they help to identify actors with an elevated susceptibility to misinformation and manipulation and/or a willingness to generate or inject disinformation into Misplaced Pages's systems either directly or by employing external vectors. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response. Indeed a lot of the article seems like guesswork, maybe poor guesswork. Just wondering if anyone had dug into this further to determine what actual evidence exists.
- To the extent that their is evidence of stealth canvassing, I think it should be acted on regardless of the editor's ideology. Certainly ban enforcement has its challenges, but that doesn't seem like enough reason to ignore rulebreaking. — xDanielx /C\ 05:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- I'm also wondering if anyone has managed to have a detailed look at the Tech for Palestine activities to compile actual evidence of policy violations, and if not, why not. I guess the answer is no/not yet or else evidence would have been presented in the PIA5 discussions or at AE for specific editors by now since that information has been available for a while. I may be a lot more cynical than you when it comes to enforcing rules in PIA because I see sanctions/remedies as mostly performative nowadays. They appear to have little to no actual impact on the dynamics of the topic area over time unless they are machine enforceable like EC protection, and even then, the benefit is very limited. People enforcing rules in PIA doesn't seem to work. The main benefits of enforcement seem to be that it can be weaponized and exploited by partisan actors to keep the fires burning/take out perceived enemies and it provides reinforcement learning so that people get better at exploiting weaknesses in the system over time. I also think that much of what happens in the topic area, rule breaking or not, is not visible/goes unnoticed/is given a pass. This is evident from the number of edits ban evading accounts manage to make before they are blocked. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
RFC: Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus
This RFC might interest contributors of this project. Andre🚐 19:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Sourcing for events at Kamal Adwan Hospital, Gaza
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Kamal Adwan Hospital sieges § Over-use of Al Jazeera. ☆ Bri (talk) 03:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
Discussion about "History of the Jews in ____" articles
Please see Talk:Jews in Madagascar#Requested move 1 November 2024 dealing with articles about Jews and Jewish history. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 17:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
SHARAP
I wonder if anyone feels like writing an article about this contentious subject? Or failing that a section for Healthcare in Israel? All the best: Rich Farmbrough 16:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC).
D. Grossman
Could anyone of you please start an article on him here on en.wp? There is a lot of info sourced to him. I asked Rajoub570, but he seems o be on a wiki break. The article about him on Hebrew wp is https://he.wikipedia.org/דוד_גרוסמן_(גאוגרף) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:01, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Articles about types of Jews as well as their histories
Please see the discussion at Talk:Georgian Jews#Requested move 12 November 2024. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 20:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Gaza Strip famine#Requested move 27 November 2024
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Gaza Strip famine#Requested move 27 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Feeglgeef (talk) 17:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Israeli incursions in the West Bank during the Israel–Hamas war#Requested move 18 November 2024
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Israeli incursions in the West Bank during the Israel–Hamas war#Requested move 18 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Feeglgeef (talk) 00:46, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Kav LaOved
Please find sources. Bearian (talk) 05:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
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