| Revision as of 04:18, 27 August 2024 editGoldsztajn (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers18,565 edits →A source on this page appears to cite Misplaced Pages: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 23:46, 13 December 2024 edit undoSpookyaki (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,169 edits Assessment: banner shell, Human rights (High), Politics (Rater) |
| (44 intermediate revisions by 14 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
|
{{afd-merged-from|Crimes against humanity under communist regimes|Crimes against humanity under communist regimes (2nd nomination)|28 August 2024}} |
|
{{skip to talk}} |
|
{{skip to talk}} |
|
{{talk header|search=yes}} |
|
{{talk header|search=yes}} |
| Line 9: |
Line 10: |
|
|text=''Due to the editing restrictions on this article, ] to serve as a collaborative workspace or dumping ground for additional article material.'' |
|
|text=''Due to the editing restrictions on this article, ] to serve as a collaborative workspace or dumping ground for additional article material.'' |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=C|vital=yes|1= |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|collapsed=yes|vital=yes|1= |
|
{{WikiProject Cambodia|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Cambodia|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject China|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject China|importance=mid}} |
| Line 15: |
Line 16: |
|
{{WikiProject Death|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject Death|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject History|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject History|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Human rights|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Human rights|importance=High}} |
|
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=High}} |
|
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Socialism|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Socialism|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Soviet Union|importance=mid|hist=yes|rus=yes|rus-importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Soviet Union|importance=mid|hist=yes|rus=yes|rus-importance=mid}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
<!--Clearly of relevance as a long-standing talking point--> |
|
{{banner holder|collapsed=yes|1= |
|
{{banner holder|collapsed=yes|1= |
|
{{American English}} |
|
{{American English}} |
| Line 157: |
Line 160: |
|
{{Clear}} |
|
{{Clear}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Debate over famines == |
|
== Removal of Ghodsee and Neumayer == |
|
{{old heading|Completely non-sensical paragraph}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Regarding removal, we cite three sources for that paragraph, not just one; while the first one is just an essay from ], we also cite a paper published in the journal '''' by Ghodsee and '''' by Neumayer; both of these are academically published and have been extensively cited themselves (, ) so they're reasonable to cover in a brief paragraph here. We could add some of those as secondary sources if necessary and replace the Aeon cite, but I don't see how total removal makes sense; and of course the rest of that edit summary seems to mostly just be expressing disagreement with them, which doesn't have anything to do with whether we cover their opinions or not. --] (]) 19:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
Under the section entitled "Debate over famines", it is implied that ''this'' is an actual argument: |
|
|
|
:IMO it's non-useful information at best. Somebody claiming that mere counting of mass killing reflects an anti-communism bias. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 23:24, 27 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::There's no question that part of the anti-Communist argument is how many people they killed. The Victims of Communism website for example says on its first page, "COMMUNISM KILLED OVER 100 MILLION." Why would they lead with this if it did not further their anti-Communist narrative? |
|
|
::It could be that is a very good argument against Communism. But it's still an argument, which by definition reflects a bias. ] (]) 23:43, 27 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Hrm. It is possible that some important context about the objection was removed , or that we should go over the sources (and look for others) and elaborate on it a bit more. I think that it's an important and ] objection, but it is true that in its current form there's something important missing - it probably needs to be expanded at least a little bit to explain it further, not removed. --] (]) 00:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::It needs further explanation, but it seems to be the most widely accepted explanation for counting bodies, particularly for the 100 million figure. ] (]) 15:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Seems well sourced but not very important. So I would be fine with it's removal. ] (]) 00:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mere selection of which aspect to cover usually reflects a type of bias. This is a universal reality, and repeating a universal reality is not information. Trying to pretend that it is noteworthy information is itself bias. For example, if a researcher counts up the number of deaths from high-school sports, we don't put in a section that a critic says that merely counting those deaths reflects an anti-sports bias. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 12:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
''Historian Jon Wiener and journalist and Labour aide Seumas Milne, have criticized the emphasis on communism when assigning blame for famines. In a 2002 article for The Guardian, Milne mentions "the moral blindness displayed towards the record of colonialism", and he writes: "If Lenin and Stalin are regarded as having killed those who died of hunger in the famines of the 1920s and 1930s, then Churchill is certainly responsible for the 4 million deaths in the avoidable Bengal famine of 1943." Milne laments that while "there is a much-lauded Black Book of Communism, no such comprehensive indictment of the colonial record." Weiner makes a similar assertion while comparing the Holodomor and the Bengal famine of 1943, stating that Winston Churchill's role in the Bengal famine "seems similar to Stalin's role in the Ukrainian famine." Historian Mike Davis, author of Late Victorian Holocausts, draws comparisons between the Great Chinese Famine and the Indian famines of the late 19th century, arguing that in both instances the governments which oversaw the response to the famines deliberately chose not to alleviate conditions and as such bear responsibility for the scale of deaths in said famines. Economic anthropologist Jason Hickel and Dylan Sullivan suggest that the number excess deaths during the apex of British colonialism in India rise to around 100 million, which is greater than all the famine deaths that have been attributed to communist governments combined.'' |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:PBS had a feature, "7 deaths linked to football raise concerns about sport’s risks for young players" The article came out after several publications noted the increasing number of high school sports deaths. |
|
Now, it's difficult to say if either these arguments are ''bad'' arguments, or just not arguments at all. Obviously, bad-but-relevant arguments are indeed necessary; it's wrong to remove cited arguments just because you believe they are ''bad''. But these arguments are ''so'' distant from the point - that, in debating famines, one must employ the logical fallacy that the British also caused famines ('''extreme''' whataboutism) - that we ought to consider if these arguments are really arguments at all; i.e., hardly relevant to "debate over famines" because there is ''no'' commentary on the communist countries at all, only that ''other'' empires did worse. ] (]) 22:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
:The number of deaths persuade people that there is a problem with high school sports and something should be done. That's because most people disapprove of unnecessary deaths. ] (]) 15:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:To put it another way, if you were told that the Communists killed 100 million people, would that tend to make you feel (a) positive about Communism, (b) more negative or (c) about the same? ] (]) 17:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::{{Ping|The Four Deuces}} All good points, but that is not the topic at hand. Putting the question in the context of your first example, if somebody said "Counting the number of high-school sports deaths represents an anti-high-school sports bias", should we put what they said into the article? <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:29, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
I noticed that the paragraph in question only ended up in its current state just four days ago. An essentially unexplained edit (one of ) removed all the information that was previously there, except for the part that said that counting victims reflects an anti-communist bias. I agree that the paragraph as it stood when this discussion began was strange and not much of a criticism (of course critics of communism have an "anti-communist bias"!), but the information that used to be there until four days ago was much more substantial. I have restored it, as well as other information removed by the same editor at the same time, with a similar lack of explanation. I do not see any difference between the removed information and the rest of the article. It was well sourced, and directly addressed the topic of communist mass killings. I do agree with one removal (the last removal, where the source was a newspaper), so I have not restored that one. - ] (]) 08:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Recent removals == |
|
:You're 100% on spot as it comes to whataboutism of this paragraph, but there's a few users here who will defend it so fiercely that nobody even wants to engage anymore. Which is kind of sad. ] (]) 11:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:Agree that this seems rather out of place. They have little to do with discussing/refuting the topic at hand and more to do with just saying other disasters have happened, too. If there's less indictment of the colonial record then its something for its article, not this one. Who cares about Hickel and Sullivan's assertion that more people died in the Raj - what does it have to do with this? Suggest removing this wholesale. — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 15:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
::100% agreed ] (]) 18:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:Calling them whataboutism isn't saying they are not arguments but that they are bad arguments. The determination that they are whataboutism should be cited to reliable sources and added if they are found. |
|
|
:I do not think however it is whataboutism. Since famine figures are used by anti-Communists to win ideological points, it may a valid argument that the regimes they support have comparable records. |
|
|
:Ironically, Mkucr is itself whataboutism designed to compare Communism unfavorably with Nazism. Nazism led to 50 million deaths, Communism to 100 million. 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, 10 million Ukrainians died in the Holodomor. ] (]) 12:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::"it may a valid argument that the regimes they support have comparable records" |
|
|
::You're making assumptions and ignoring the fact that the USSR itself was a colonialist regime. ] (]) 16:23, 27 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::MIlne was referring to overseas empires. Of course England, Spain, Russia, Germany, France, Austria, Italy and other European powers had what may be called colonies inside Europe. ] (]) 11:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:The material in question clearly contains arguments made in the reliably sourced literature about this topic. Whether the arguments are persuasive should be left to the reader to decide. |
|
|
:Moreover, the material proposed for deletion contains direct comparisons of mass killings under communist and colonial regimes, for example: {{tq|Winston Churchill's role in the Bengal famine "seems similar to Stalin's role in the Ukrainian famine."}} and {{tq| Historian Mike Davis ... draws comparisons between the Great Chinese Famine and the Indian famines of the late 19th century, arguing that in both instances the governments which oversaw the response to the famines deliberately chose not to alleviate conditions and as such bear responsibility for the scale of deaths in said famines.}} There you have a comparison of leadership roles and government policies within the broader context of late 19th/20th century history. That can't be reduced to vulgar whataboutism, and luckily we now have a section where it is better suited. I propose restoring a modified version of the reverted text in the comparisons section, roughly as follows: {{tq|Historian Jon Wiener and journalist and Labour aide Seumas Milne, have criticized the emphasis on communism when assigning blame for famines, saying there is "moral blindness displayed towards the record of colonialism." Milne laments that while "there is a much-lauded Black Book of Communism, no such comprehensive indictment of the colonial record." Weiner makes a similar assertion while comparing the Holodomor and the Bengal famine of 1943, stating that Winston Churchill's role in the Bengal famine "seems similar to Stalin's role in the Ukrainian famine." Historian Mike Davis, author of Late Victorian Holocausts, draws comparisons between the Great Chinese Famine and the Indian famines of the late 19th century, arguing that in both instances the governments which oversaw the response to the famines deliberately chose not to alleviate conditions and as such bear responsibility for the scale of deaths in said famines. Economic anthropologist Jason Hickel and Dylan Sullivan suggest that the number excess deaths during the apex of British colonialism in India rise to around 100 million, which is greater than all the famine deaths that have been attributed to communist governments combined.}} ] (]) 23:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::The communist famines are not merely ''compared'' to the British and imperialist-induced famines of the 20th (and prior) century. They are outright dismissed for the reason of discourse; with no reflection on "communist famines", and instead using the supposed argument from discourse to dismiss famines in communist regimes whatsoever by saying different regimes of different ideologies did so also. A ''comparison'' would involve ''comparing'' communist and imperialist famines (elements of which I think should be kept), not employing the supposed notion that other famines are relatively ignored, thus outright dismissing famines in communist regimes. |
|
|
::"The emphasis on communism" is criticised, followed by absolutely no refutation - '''not even a reference''' (and so barely a relevant argument) - of such an emphasis, only an obscene, completely off-topic deflection to other regimes. That might be a criticism of those who criticise communism and defend the British Empire, for instance, but that pretty clearly a huge ]. "no such comprehensive indictment of the colonial record" has got ''nothing'' - absolutely '''nothing''' to do with the merest reference of criticising "the emphasis on communism". A patently extraordinary statement to include. |
|
|
::"....greater than all the famine deaths that have been attributed to communist governments combined" - again an obscene deflection, especially - '''especially''' considering most of the "communist" famines occurred in a period from 1919 to 1961, (the majority of the second world's existence, barring modern China and 4 others); the British Empire lasted hundreds of years. |
|
|
::I think that Mike Davis' argument is relevant as it actually makes comparisons in the first place, not with a whataboutist effort to dismiss the famines, or something of the sort. So I support all of his content. Milne is not an historian nor an academic, another reason for excluding his non-argument. So my conclusion would be to include Davis, exclude Milne, and remain very skeptical of Hickel and Sullivan's arguments - again, not because of their ''quality'', but of their sheer relevance in the first place concerning "mass killings under communist regimes". ] (]) 02:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::And furthermore ""moral blindness displayed towards the record of colonialism" doesn't make ''any ''sense as the Marxist-Leninist states described in this article ''were'' frequently colonialist themselves, e.g., the Soviet Union (as another editor pointed out above). ] (]) 02:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I am starting this thread to discuss recent content removals by DaltonCastle. I disagree with them, because the removed content was well sourced and in line with the rest of the article. Much of the article consists of reporting the views of different academics on issues such as the proper names to be used for the mass killings (terminology), the numbers of people killed and how those numbers should be estimated (estimates), causes of the killings, comparisons to other mass killings, and so on. In many cases, there is no overall consensus on these topics, there are only different sources with different perspectives. So the article reports the conclusions of author A, then those of author B, then those of author C, etc. In cases where two authors directly disagree with each other, this is also noted. I think this is a good format, and actually I cannot think of any other way to organize this information. DaltonCastle has removed certain sentences and paragraphs on the grounds that they represent the views of only one author, or only two authors, or that they are "hardly a consensus". That is true, but the same could be said about every other sentence and paragraph immediately before and after the removed ones. Of course each paragraph (or part of a paragraph, or sentence) focuses on a single author, because that is the structure being used. We describe the various sources one by one, when there is no way to combine them without doing original research (for example, when they disagree with each other). The names of the authors are given every time, and the content makes it clear that it is reporting their separate conclusions. This is what I mean when I say that I do not see any difference between the removed information and the rest of the article. - ] (]) 12:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:The issue is not about the quality of sourcing, its that there is a ] issue to insert a point of view. When the "Estimates" section starts off with "a communist-leaning academic believes the following estimates are exaggerated" (I'm obviously simplifying), there is a concern. It is a question of 1. due weight, 2. Coatracking, 3. POV-insertion/whitewashing. The near-majority of the article should not be weighted towards the handful of academics who say the numbers are overestimated. At most it is a quick mention. ] (]) 20:28, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::The "Estimates" section begins by quoting ], who is not remotely communist-leaning as far as I can tell. He has written a book specifically about the crimes of communist states. Also, he is not saying that the estimates are exaggerated, but that they are contentious and debated. This is true, and it is a good summary of the literature. Every author who has estimated the number of people killed by communist regimes has arrived at a different number, and the differences between the numbers are in the tens of millions. It's not a question of high numbers or low numbers, it's just that they are very different from each other. For example, the three highest estimates cited in the "Estimates" section are 94 million, 110 million and 148 million. The differences between these "high" numbers are just as big as the differences between "high" and "low" numbers. So, it is not as if most academics agree on a single number, and a handful of sources say that this number is overestimated. There is no agreement on any single number, high or low. I think it is therefore good and important to cover all the estimates and the various debates about them. |
|
|
::I don't see any particular weight in the article towards some estimates or authors as opposed to others. Every author gets about the same space as every other author. On the contrary, it seems to me that removing some authors would privilege those that remain. We should not give the impression that there is academic agreement on an issue when there is no agreement, by citing a single author. |
|
|
::Finally, regarding ], I don't see that here at all. In my understanding, coatracking is when an article groups together different topics that are unrelated (or only tangentially related) to the article's topic. So, coatracking here would be if the article cited sources that don't talk about communist mass killings. But all the cited sources do in fact talk about communist mass killings. They disagree with each other on things like estimates or causes, but describing sources that disagree with each other is not coatracking. That's just standard academic debate. - ] (]) 05:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Any academic work is going to full of things that can be critiqued. Respectfully, your edit had a massive amount of such material, (plus a whataboutism argument made by someone.) I think that a high-quality paragraph (information, not talking points) covering variability and possible bias in estimates would be a good addition. But IMHO the edit that I just described was not that. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Bad sourcing and obvious bias. == |
|
It's probably good to explore the differences between where the ''initiatives'' of a Communist regime and commmunism-related ''initiatives'' were a major ''cause'' of the deaths vs. those other types of deaths where the main assertion is failure to help. But giving all of this space to an obviously biased writer who is basically just making a whataboutism talking point rather than undertaking such an analysis is IMO a bad way to approach this and not good content for the article. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 13:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This whole page needs to be cleaned up. ] (]) 04:43, 30 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
:I do not see the problem with the argument being whataboutism. Essentially mass killings under Communist regimes is used as an argument in favor of capitalism. It would be as if when comparing Coke and Pepsi, we could mention how many calories Coke had but not Pepsi. ] (]) 15:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::IMHO the subject is just about what it is, including as made more specific by the result of the big AFD. So IMHO it's not about being an argument in favor of capitalism. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 20:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::So you don't think that the editor of the Black Book of Communism or the Victims of Communism foundation have any ideological motive despite their clear association with the extreme right? There's a lot that has been written about their political objectives. The French Right for example used Courtois' arguments to defend Vichy France and to recast the Resistance as the real traitors. ] (]) 04:11, 26 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::], the core policies of ] and ] apply to talk pages as well as articles. Insinuating that a group of academics are associated "with the extreme right" without any sources to back it up violates those policies. ] (]) 18:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::A substantial amount of sources have been cited, which are archived, about ]'s introduction to the Black Book of Communism. Two of the contributors were so upset they tried to get their contributions removed. Richard J. Golsan wrote about it in |
|
|
:::::There's no secret that the leadership of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is dominated by figures from the American Right, such as ]. |
|
|
:::::A Canadian newspaper published an article about their Canadian branch: ] (]) 03:05, 28 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::"You don't think vegetarians have any ideological motive despite their association with the extreme right? Hitler for example used arguments against animal cruelty to promote vegetarianism." ] (]) 07:44, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::I do agree that the BBOC and VOC creators do have agendas. That's not really what I'm arguing about. I'm saying that, in an article about mass killings under communist regimes, what should be talked about primarily is literally ''mass killings under communist regimes'', and secondarily, topics such as the historiographical methods used in the analysis of such mass killings. The quality of the very analyses is important, and so criticisms of the BBOC etc. are necessary, but it seems even ''more'' derivative and further from the primary point not to criticize what the BBOC et. al ''mentions'', but arbitrary things that they ''don't'' mention; i.e., "''The BBOC and other controversial yet famous anti-communist texts are so much more famous than texts criticizing British colonialism. Let's criticize British colonialism!''" That's the tangentiality - whataboutism - that I am referring to. ] (]) 07:55, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Mkukr is itself a whataboutism response to the the Holocaust. It's called the double genocide theory. Nazism killed 50 million people, communism killed 100 million. The Holocaust had 6 million victims, the Holodomor had ten million. Therefore the European Right was justified in supporting Nazi Germany over the greater evil of the Soviet Union. |
|
|
:::::And of course the academic community rejects this type of logic and there is no literature that tries to tie Communist mass killings together in the same way that Holocaust studies tie together Nazi mass killings. |
|
|
:::::OTOH ] "can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair, and behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be appropriate in a given geopolitical neighborhood. Accusing an interlocutor of whataboutism can also in itself be manipulative." |
|
|
:::::In this case Mcukr argues that communism is inherently homocidal yet followers of other ideologies act in the same way given the same circumstances. For example, mass killings of Chechens occured under successive tsarist, communist and capitalist regimes in Russia. Experts attribute these mass killings to counter-insurgency rather than ideology. |
|
|
:::::Furthermore it is relevant when comparing two alternatives (in this case communism and capitalism), that information be provided about both. A comparison of the healthiness of Coke and Pepsi for example would be misleading if information was provided for only one product. ] (]) 11:34, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Are you serious? The notion of there MKUKR in-and-of-itself "{{tq|is itself a whataboutism response to the the Holocaust}}"? |
|
|
::::::It's also funny how you didn't address my argument about references to British colonialism being not only whataboutist but derivatives of derivatives of derivatives. You are seriously denying the existence of this article; that any notion (though cited thoroughly) of "mass killings under communist regimes" relates to ''double genocide theory''? Seriously, have a break. I think you might genuinely want to reflect on what you have said there. |
|
|
::::::"{{tq|In this case Mcukr argues that communism is inherently homocidal}}" - no it doesn't. It analyses the excess deaths - particularly mass killings, for supposedly systemic reasons under "communist" regimes. This article discusses the importance of "communism" in such regimes that committed mass killings, offering opinions both for and against its importance; you are clearly of the latter opinion, but it's just that - an opinion; only one side of the story. |
|
|
::::::In fact, "{{tq|yet followers of other ideologies act in the same way given the same circumstances}}" is a particularly clear example of parrotting your own opinion. Cite your sources. What is even more pathetic is that you suggest that this article as a whole is unjust because you agree with only one side of the opinions presented in this article. ] (]) 11:51, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::"{{tq|A comparison of the healthiness of Coke and Pepsi for example would be misleading if information was provided for only one product}}" - what a juvenile analogy. This article is about mass killings under communist regimes, '''not''' about comparisons between capitalism and communism. Additionally, the paragraph I picked out from Milne et. al does not refer specifically to "capitalism", but "colonialism" as a cause for Bengal famine etc. So your notion of a binary in this debate is likewise completely OR. ] (]) 11:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::"Mkukr is itself a whataboutism response to the the Holocaust" - just coming back to seeing such an obscene remark. Seriously strike this negationism, minimalisation out. ] (]) 01:53, 21 June 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::"{{tq|And of course the academic community rejects this type of logic and there is no literature that tries to tie Communist mass killings together in the same way that Holocaust studies tie together Nazi mass killings.}}" - Communist mass killings ''are ''tied together by proponents of the notion of MKUCR. Hence, ''this article.'' |
|
|
:::::"{{tq|...in the same way that Holocaust studies tie together Nazi mass killings}}"; uh..., because ] is an ideology spanning dozens of state ideologies historically, whereas Nazism refers almost entirely to a single state? Many academics ''do'' "tie Communist mass killings together"; '''hence this article'''. ] (]) 12:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Sorry to be so late to respond. As stated at the top of this page, "This article exists because so far there has been no consensus to delete it." ] (]) 02:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::Because there were many significant arguments in the last discussion that very much acknowledged that "many academics do "tie Communist mass killings together". ] (]) 02:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::I don't doubt that many participants in the discussion made that claim, it's just that they didn't provide examples. If such a body of literature existed, then there would not be opposition to the article. It could then explain why these authors tied the mass killings together, why others rejected these claims and the degree of acceptance both sides had. |
|
|
::::::::Even fringe sources, such as Victims of Communism, don't actually explain what the connection is, it's just a given. |
|
|
::::::::The closest I could find was comparisons of mass killings in Stalin's USSR, Mao's China and Pol Pot's Cambodia. ] (]) 03:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::* Bradley's ''Human Rights and Communism'' (Cambridge History, 2017) https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-history-of-communism/human-rights-and-communism/91A64EB79E8AF87CC589035623572949 |
|
|
:::::::::* ''The Black Book of Communism'' is a mainstream book, regardless of controversy. |
|
|
:::::::::* RJ Rummel's many works on Communism. Still controversial, but not ''irrelevant''. |
|
|
:::::::::Three immediate examples I can see already in the bibliography. You will find references to mass killings in all three. The point is, whether you agree with it or disagree with it, much of the discourse surrounding "Communism" relates to mass killings. The likes of Hickel, Davis, and others (who focus on anti-anti-communist type views) are still contributing to such a discourse. If you think that MKUCR is a whataboutist response to the Holocaust - a fascist talking point of sorts - then believe what you want to believe. For example, there is an article on ] which thoroughly discredits "Cultural Marxism": you do not need academic ''support'' of a theory, only discourse, for it to be written about. This is an article on MKUCR which has sources both in support and opposition - in relevant, sourced discourse - of the very thesis. ] (]) 04:18, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:You're welcome to get started. Have any suggestions? ] (]) 03:31, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
*You will have to be more specific. As you can see from some of the older discussions above and in the archives, there have been a lot of discussions of possible bias from different directions, some of which have resulted in changes and some of which hasn't; without more details we can't even attempt to answer you. --] (]) 14:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
{{outdent}}As I wrote above, "The closest I could find was comparisons of mass killings in Stalin's USSR, Mao's China and Pol Pot's Cambodia." That is the topic of the Black Book of Communism, it does not have chapters on any other countries. |
|
|
|
|
|
Mark Philip Bradley's article "Human Rights and Communism is about the broader topic of human rights and covers mass killings. AFAIK, he also restricts the conversation to mass killings in Stalin's USSR, Mao's China and Pol Pot's Cambodia. |
|
|
|
|
|
While Rummel was an established expert, in later years he self-published to his website and was largely ignored by other writers. That makes it hard to present his findings in a neutral manner. And note that his estimates were far outside the most extreme estimates in reliable sources. |
|
|
|
|
|
Stéphane Courtois certainly used the introduction to the Black Book to present a whataboutism argument, He wrote, "The child of a Ukrainian kulak deliberately starved to death by the Stalinist regime is worth no less than a Jewish child in the Warsaw ghetto starved to death by the Nazi regime." |
|
|
|
|
|
The intent was not to be a "fascist talking point," but to defend the French Right for WWII collaboration. The argument was that they were forced to choose between the evil of fascism and the greater evil of Communism. Conveniently, this portrayed the French Left as worse, because they openly opposed fascism. There's extensive literature about the controversy the introduction caused, including condemnation by the main author of the book. It's called the ]. |
|
|
] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added 00:33, 25 July 2024 (UTC)</small> |
|
|
|
|
|
:Bradley literally specifically relates mass killings as being associated with communist regimes. It's literally the first page of the linked preview. And the BBOC is a book by many authors; all authors - beyond Courtois - focus on the "dark sides", such as mass killings, under communist regimes.. Besides you're completely off-topic. It's entirely irrelevant how you feel about this article existing (that Afd was rightly a failure). |
|
|
:Saying that followers of other ideologies would do the same is egregious denial of atrocities. A contemptible thing to say. ] (]) 13:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::Please do not make moral judgments of other editors, which is a personal attack and not conductive to rational discussion. My only concern is that sources are properly reflected according to rules and policies. This is not the place to express our moral indignation with communism or to defend it, merely to report what sources say. |
|
|
::Anti-Communsits argue that Communist ideology killed 100+ million people. The controversy is whether any or all of these deaths could be attributed to ideology. Did Stalin for example set up a secret police because of Communist ideology, or would a tsarist regime have also had secret police? ] (]) 11:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::The reason why you say "followers of other ideologies would do the same" is exceptionally inappropriate because it is similar to Hitler's justification for Generalplan Ost; he was doing just as Genghis Khan and other nation "builders" did - all nations are supposedly built from genocide (and so an exculpation - a natural aspect of any ideology). It is a minimalization of crimes against humanity; Stalin and Mao committed their crimes ''consciously'', not just by the happenstance you so imply. I.e., "Communism" itself was utilised as the reasoning for mass killings, purging reactionaries, rightists and the bourgeoisie that were hindrances, supposedly to communism. |
|
|
:::Of course there is debate about how that truly "reflects" communism as an ideology, but I never mentioned ideology. The article should consider ideology - as it does already - as to whether or not it was (in)culpable, and what makes communist "mass killings" unique. For instance, Stalin, regardless of whether he was truly a communist, ''employed'' communist rhetoric as justification for his killings. That's a very notable aspect. It doesn't necessarily matter if he was or wasn't a real Scotsman; the article is about the regimes-that-called-themselves-socialist-towards-communism, and the mass killings that occurred across many of them, as clearly documented here by many reliable sources. ] (]) 15:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:And I didn't dispute BBOC being "whataboutist". You said that the entirety of the topic of MKUCR is whataboutist. That is utterly polemical. ] (]) 13:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Two points: |
|
|
*This sounds like a discussion about interpreting/ deriving ideological "lessons" from those mass killings. That does not sound like the stuff to include in this article. |
|
|
*Some of the "lessons" discussions seem to be talking about deriving conclusions about communism philosophy from this. Either side might do this, not just the obvious from the anti-communist side. From the pro-communist side, it redefines the assertion as a straw man argument. With regard to all of this, I would note that the topic all importantly is defined as "under communist '''''regimes'''''" So it's about what happened/happens when a communist ''regime'' controls the country. |
|
|
Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 15:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Because there were no rs, the article could not discussion whether Jews were more likely to support or oppose Communism. But the list of examples presented a rap sheet that implied they were. |
|
|
:What eventually persuaded most readers to delete the article was that it paraphrased an article from a neo-Nazi website. It had collated information in rs in order to present a view that Communism was a Jewish conspiracy. It's disappointing how few editors recognized the anti-Semitic bias of the article until this was pointed out. |
|
|
:If you just list mass killings carried out in Communist states, the implication is that ideology was responsible. Implication is considered OR. ] (]) 12:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::Yeah, well, the implication is itself cited abundantly within this article, either in favour or against it. That discourse - so long as RS - is clearly thus not OR. |
|
|
::I want to know what you mean by "Mkukr is itself a whataboutism response to the the Holocaust"? Are you saying that those supporting the notion of MKUCR are minimalizing the Holocaust? Is that what you think of this article itself? ] (]) 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::] says, "do not combine different parts of one source to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source." That means that Misplaced Pages articles cannot imply anything, any statements must be explicit. If a source makes an implicit statement, we need a source that explicitly says that was the implication. |
|
|
:::If you want to know why this topic is seen as whataboutism, see "Holocaust Revisionism, Ultranationalism, and the Nazi/Soviet "Double Genocide" Debate in Eastern Europe", There is extensive literature about this, beginning with the publication of the Black Book. |
|
|
:::One theory, presented by George Watson, who is quoted in this article, is that Marx and Engels promoted genocide and their call was taken up by their Communist disciples. Essentially, socialist elites would eliminate most of the world's population so that they would effectively rule it. While it is questionable, at least it is theory that attempts to explain mkucr as a topic. ] (]) 12:04, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::But it is one of many theories. It is not encyclopedic to choose one over the others, on the basis of your own opinion. You write that MKUCR is whataboutist. You wouldn't use that in wikivoice, or in the article at all, would you? So you cannot find a summation of sources that says that MKUCR is a whataboutist notion - ''you'' are evidently committing undue weight. |
|
|
::::And Watson says nothing that implies "whataboutism", either. |
|
|
::::Double Genocide theorists may utilize the notion of MKUCR to further their ideologies. But that pretty clearly does not imply that MKUCR is itself DGT, nor whataboutist. Your original research is beyond extraordinary. ] (]) 13:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::It is patently ironic that you are arguing for deleting this article, and claiming supposedly that no RS covers it (supposedly either negatively or in affirmation of the notion), but then you say, "why this topic is seen as whataboutism", citing an article on DGT. Tell me, is that article covering the notion of "this topic" - MKUCR - at all? ] (]) 13:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::I don't know if the article should say it is whataboutism, but that is the only opinion that is supported in reliable sources. |
|
|
:::::I don't understand your final point. Are you saying that sources about the double genocide theory prove the topic of this article is notable? It may show the double genocide theory is notable. |
|
|
:::::Also, I don't know why you cannot see the double genocide theory as implicit in Mkucr. The French Right had been shamed for years for collaborating with the Nazis. The Black Book they thought exonerated them by showing that Communism was the greater evil. Furthermore, it made the French Left villains for resisting Nazism. The theory would later gain popularity in Eastern Europe. A veteran of the Waffen-SS was recently given a standing ovaation in the Canadian parliament for his courage in fighting Communist Russia. |
|
|
:::::That's why no interest is taken for anything that ties everything together and the reason why there are no rs. ] (]) 14:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::"but that is the only opinion that is supported in reliable sources." Well then. You're evidently just lying. Such magnitude. |
|
|
::::::My final point - you said that MKUCR was cited as relating to DGT in that article. If that article, supposedly reliable, describes MKUCR, then, well, there go you, you evidently do have discourse contributing to the notion. If it doesn't describe MKUCR then it's evidently an irrelevant citation. |
|
|
::::::You said months ago "the academic community rejects this type of logic and there is no literature that tries to tie Communist mass killings together in the same way that Holocaust studies tie together Nazi mass killings" which is circular logic. You say that MCUKR is implicitly DGT, and that DGT is unreliable, so thus MKUCR is unreliable. There are many RS that discuss MKUCR without comparing to Nazism. You, without any elaboration,, state that DGT is implicit. Utterly contemptible. ] (]) 14:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::"double genocide theory as implicit in Mkucr." You should absolutely strike that remark if you want to pretend to act in good faith. ] (]) 14:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Fyi that article does not imply MKUCR as in anyway being implicitly linked to DGT. The term "mass killings" is literally never even mentioned. ] (]) 15:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Well the "delete/don't delete" was settled by a massive process. The difficult-to-implement result (in my words) was in essence to cover the possible relationship vs. just listing them all and implying a cause-effect relationship. IMO a discussion about whether communist ideology inherently causes mass killing IMO is a straw-man tangent and ignores the '''''"regimes"''''' in the title. Just for the talk page, IMO it's pretty obvious. The "no democracy" aspect of Communism at the country level has always led to totalitarian leadership. Combine that with a portion of the population being whipped into a frenzy. So far "totalitarian leadership and a portion of the people whipped into a frenzy" is a mixture that most commonly (but not only.....e.g Nazi Germany) occurred when trying to implement communism. With communism another component is added which is trying to implement a massive change requiring force. My main point here is to avoid redefining the subject to one of whether the ideology inherently drives mass killings; the national-level '''''regimes''''' is the topic. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 14:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I completely agree, first and foremost is about MKUC REGIMES as considered by RS. ] (]) 14:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::But I don't necessarily think ideology- for or against - should be eschewed, even if not primary. ] (]) 14:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:But even then you would need to show some connection. In comparison, there was a website called "Republican sex criminals" that outlined the crimes of Republican sex offenders. The implication was that Republicans are more likely to be sex offenders than Democrats or independents. But the topic would only be encyclopedia if there were a body of literature explaining why Republicans are more likely to be sex offenders. |
|
|
:I mentioned btw that there is a topic that Stalin's Russia, Mao's China and the Khmer Rouge carried out mass killings as part of an effort of rapid industrialization. And they draw a connection between the ideologies of the three regimes. But that's a narrower topic than this one. ] (]) 14:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::The magnitude of your ignoring of very many reliable sources is astounding. It shows you either have a twisted view of what "reliable" is (Bradley, for instance, quite clearly states the notion, which you dismiss), or you are adamantly partaking in bad faith discussion. ] (]) 14:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::{{Ping|TFD}}, every mass killing has a different series of events that led up to it. "Cause" us a subjective word, but usually the top 1-3 noteworthy events/situations that led to it are called "causes". I think that it's sky is blue that there being a communist regime in place was one of these factors '''''when''''' the mass killings occurred under a communist regime. At the individual mass-killing level, the most that a responsible academic would do is say that there being a communist regime was one of the main factors that led to it. I think that it would be subjective (rather than academic) for them to identify it as ''the'' cause, but you seem to be saying that nothing less than that will do. I think that it's also sky is blue that mass killings (by the normal meaning of the term) occur with a disproportionately high frequency when communist regimes are in place. I'm guessing that this meta-analysis probably exists out there somewhere but if that is your standard we'd just have a short meta-analysis article with no coverage of the specific mass killings. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 20:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
This discussion has been running for over eight months now (albeit with some breaks) and it might be time for TFD to ]. There is clearly no consensus to delete the article, and the discussion is very much going in circles at this stage. ] (]) 15:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Historiography info missing? == |
|
|
|
|
|
I think a section dedicated to historiography of this subject is needed. After all, the latest AFD nomination was closed as "no consensus". Attempts to change the title has failed numerous times. Furthermore, the topic has been under arbitration remedies and barely studied by academics. ] (]) 04:53, 16 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I don't think it would be possible. Can you cite any review articles that outline the literature? That btw is the reason many editors have found the article unencyclopedic. ] (]) 02:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::I found , "Mao's China". The title has "''Historiography''" within. , might or might not cover this subject, but I still am looking. ] (]) 22:28, 24 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::See my comments in the section about. This article is about mass killings under communist regimes, not mass killings in Mao's China specifically. ] (]) 00:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== A source on this page appears to cite Misplaced Pages == |
|
|
|
|
|
I've seen a claim that the book, Red Holocaust, by ] cites Misplaced Pages articles in its text. Naturally, I wanted to double check this myself and . I'm impaired by the fact I don't have access to the full book, but where you can see the Misplaced Pages pages together with other references. Inclusion of it on this page likely violates ] and ]. These Misplaced Pages citations also don't include the date they were accessed or what version of the article they were from, further making them problematic. Keep in mind the book was published in 2009. Given that I see this source used in a couple different areas on this page and this page's controversial history, I didn't want to remove it myself without discussing it with the other editors. I looked through the Talk Page Archives to see if the issue had been discussed before, and it doesn't appear to have been. Forgive me if I missed it, given the endless discussions that have occurred here. I have to admit, I would be a bit surprised if this issue hasn't been broached before. ] (]) 02:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:We don't require that WP:Reliable sources use only WP:Reliable sources. And ] prohibits using mirrors of Misplaced Pages and so is really not applicable to this. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 18:44, 18 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::This article should at least be very cautious with how this book is employed through this page given that, again, it cites Misplaced Pages Articles from 15 years ago and it's unknown which exact version of the articles they are. Are you sure this wouldn't fall under ]? It's only one more step removed. ] (]) 23:27, 24 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Agree with North8000. The only other case where it might be important is if a source is used for a fact that the source cites to a Misplaced Pages article. ] (]) 19:02, 18 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::What about broader arguments from Rosefielde mentioned on the page that might draw from some of the facts mentioned in the book? ] (]) 23:30, 24 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Scholars routinely use unreliable sources. In fact, scholarship would be impossible without them. How else for example could anyone write the history of the Roman Empire, since there were no reliable sources to record any of its events? |
|
|
:::Scholars are expected to be able determine what information in unreliable sources is true and what isn't unlike Misplaced Pages editors who lack that expertise. |
|
|
:::I myself would never use a Misplaced Pages article as a source for a paper, but might use it to find sources. |
|
|
:::Presumably, Rosenfeld did not come to his conclusions from erroneous information in Misplaced Pages. While I don't know that for a fact, other experts reviewed his work and one of the leading academic publishers accepted it. |
|
|
:::The other issue is that most conclusions are treated as opinions, not facts, hence rs does not apply. We report opinions based on their acceptance in reliable sources, not whether or not they are true. |
|
|
:::Incidentally, much of the information in reliable sources is unsourced, for example Encyclopedia Britannia articles. How is that better than using Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 02:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::When historians quote and rely on ancient & Medieval writers, they also employ skepticism towards them. I don't see how that issue matters because writing pre-modern history is much different from writing modern history due to the relative lack of primary sources for the former. |
|
|
:::: |
|
|
::::Encyclopedia Britannica isn't immune to scrutiny, but it's more reliable than Misplaced Pages, because it avoids many of Misplaced Pages's issues. I'll scrutinize Encyclopedia Britannica in the same way I'd scrutinize any other source. Likewise, I would expect Encyclopedia Britannica to avoid recycling facts from itself found in another book. |
|
|
:::: |
|
|
::::The difference is that Misplaced Pages does not consider itself a reliable secondary source. I'll come back to this topic at some point when I have full access to the book and can confirm what the book is using it for. To me, it appears to be using it as a secondary source. ] (]) 18:36, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::::The specific question here is (implicitly) whether Misplaced Pages's rules (excluding citing Misplaced Pages as a source) apply. The answer to that narrow question is NO. Any other questions should be clearly stated for discussion. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Are you saying that if Rosefielde had not provided sources where he cited Misplaced Pages, that information would have been reliable, since the book otherwise meets rs as an academic work? |
|
|
:::::BTW I doubt that Rosefielde used Misplaced Pages without scepticism. |
|
|
:::::Also, how do you scrutinize EB since it provides no sources? To me, the is the reason I never use it. ] (]) 19:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::I want to come back to this topic at some point when I have access to the full book, but you mentioned there were academic reviews of it. Do you know what their titles were? I would like to read them if possible. ] (]) 16:37, 3 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::I wrote "other experts reviewed his work." I meant in the course of publication. You can find Routledge's publishing process . Academic sources are considered the most reliable because the of the process they follow in publication. |
|
|
:::::::While academic publishers will publish controversial books, the publication process should weed out glaring errors of fact. ] (]) 12:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::@] you can find a review of Red Holocaust here: . The work does not appear to have been widely reviewed in the academic press, although I did not do a thorough search. Regards, ] (]) 04:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
Mere selection of which aspect to cover usually reflects a type of bias. This is a universal reality, and repeating a universal reality is not information. Trying to pretend that it is noteworthy information is itself bias. For example, if a researcher counts up the number of deaths from high-school sports, we don't put in a section that a critic says that merely counting those deaths reflects an anti-sports bias. North8000 (talk) 12:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I noticed that the paragraph in question only ended up in its current state just four days ago. An essentially unexplained edit (one of several such edits) removed all the information that was previously there, except for the part that said that counting victims reflects an anti-communist bias. I agree that the paragraph as it stood when this discussion began was strange and not much of a criticism (of course critics of communism have an "anti-communist bias"!), but the information that used to be there until four days ago was much more substantial. I have restored it, as well as other information removed by the same editor at the same time, with a similar lack of explanation. I do not see any difference between the removed information and the rest of the article. It was well sourced, and directly addressed the topic of communist mass killings. I do agree with one removal (the last removal, where the source was a newspaper), so I have not restored that one. - Small colossal (talk) 08:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I am starting this thread to discuss recent content removals by DaltonCastle. I disagree with them, because the removed content was well sourced and in line with the rest of the article. Much of the article consists of reporting the views of different academics on issues such as the proper names to be used for the mass killings (terminology), the numbers of people killed and how those numbers should be estimated (estimates), causes of the killings, comparisons to other mass killings, and so on. In many cases, there is no overall consensus on these topics, there are only different sources with different perspectives. So the article reports the conclusions of author A, then those of author B, then those of author C, etc. In cases where two authors directly disagree with each other, this is also noted. I think this is a good format, and actually I cannot think of any other way to organize this information. DaltonCastle has removed certain sentences and paragraphs on the grounds that they represent the views of only one author, or only two authors, or that they are "hardly a consensus". That is true, but the same could be said about every other sentence and paragraph immediately before and after the removed ones. Of course each paragraph (or part of a paragraph, or sentence) focuses on a single author, because that is the structure being used. We describe the various sources one by one, when there is no way to combine them without doing original research (for example, when they disagree with each other). The names of the authors are given every time, and the content makes it clear that it is reporting their separate conclusions. This is what I mean when I say that I do not see any difference between the removed information and the rest of the article. - Small colossal (talk) 12:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
view · edit Frequently asked questions
This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.
Note: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues.
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
.svg){kind=small}
,_Emblem_of_Russia_(1991%E2%80%931992).svg)
