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Revision as of 16:08, 2 June 2021 editElizium23 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers66,953 edits →Sir Miles Davis: indentTag: 2017 wikitext editor← Previous edit Latest revision as of 19:53, 15 December 2024 edit undoSarcelles (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers9,112 edits →Activity of daughter organisations of the order and the Alliance of the Orders of Saint John of Jerusalem: ReplyTag: Reply 
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==Archive discussion== ==Archive discussion==
*] (was an independent talk page when we had two versions of the same article) *] (was an independent talk page when we had two versions of the same article)

==Merge summary==
I merged this article with ]. Since more pages linked here than ], I decided that this page is to stay. I also changed some sections into subsections. I wrote new paragraph about government of the Order basing on their WebPage FAQ. I tried to changed what needed as to not constitute copyvio, but I might miss something. I fixed all links to point here (almost, as Micronation is protected).] 23:53, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

== International status ==

I cannot see what is "nebulous" there. That an area of land is extraterritorial does not mean that it is not a constituent part of the territory of Italy (in this case), it just means that Italy cannot exercise its jurisdiction there, because it is hindered to do so by international law.

This is the same status that an embassy has.

If I hear no objections here, I will rewrite that paragraph.

P.S.: What is interesting about the order is that it once _was_ a state but stopped to do so when it lost its territory (but did not stop to be a subject of international law).

] 09:58, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The part about the coins and stamps is outdated; there are 2004 coins on the Order's web site.


== Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem == == Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem ==
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the only official language is the italian. the only official language is the italian.


== Sovereign state == == Sir Miles Davis ==


Hello, see ] (later years) to find a cited claim that the Knights of Malta honoured the jazz legend with a knighthood. This is impossible and yet there it is. Ha Ha - it is clearly someone's joke from 1988. Question: The notes in this article clearly show they do not honour artists and their work is of a completely different nature. It will not make any sense to a reader. What should be done?] (]) 21:26, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Hi {{ping|DrKay}} you removed an assertion about SMOM being a ] because it was "unsourced". Then you added your own unsourced statement! It was easy for me, even with a naive Google search, to find multiple sources that identify SMOM as a sovereign state. These sources say that recognition is not universal, but that is far from it being totally unrecognized, as you have asserted in Misplaced Pages's voice. So, please source or remove your statement. Also, please refrain from deriding editors and edits as jokes and vandalism - I have been adding legitimate sources and acting in good faith, so ]. ] (]) 19:34, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
:You have been going around saying Liberland is a sovereign state. That is either a joke or foolishly misguided. ] (]) 19:36, 12 September 2019 (UTC) :{{u|Thelisteninghand}}, I don't get it - why do you say that this is "impossible" and "someone's joke"? ] (]) 01:12, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
::Because both are true.] (]) 15:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
:::{{u|Thelisteninghand}}, you have no source or documentation or evidence that this is so. It's just your say-so. It's textbook ]. This is Misplaced Pages, where we summarize what the sources say, not impose our own conjectures. ] (]) 15:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
::::Thanks. Incorrect. The evidence is the documentation that shows the Sovereign Order of St John do not and have never honoured artists PLUS the fact stated in this article that they are often impersonated. Yes that's textbook OR agreed. But it is not simply an opinion. I cannot edit on this basis obviously which is why the text is still there. I realise this is WP.] (]) 16:02, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Thelisteninghand}}, no artist has ever joined the SMOM? I find that hard to believe and even harder to document. ] (]) 16:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::Thanks {{u|Elizium23}} Please look for yourself. https://www.orderofmalta.int ] (]) 19:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::{{u|Thelisteninghand}}, I see the front page of their website. Where is the disclaimer, "artists are not welcome as members"? ] (]) 00:12, 5 June 2021 (UTC)


{{u|Elizium23}} https://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Knights_of_Malta Sir Miles Davis is not a member. You should provide a citation from SMOM of any case, at any time, of knighthood of a jazz musician. ] (]) 17:50, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
== Requested move 19 December 2019 ==


In addition to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, there are a number of other groups which call themselves "Knights of Malta". Some of these claim a connection with the Russian priory of the early 19th century. Others are Masonic organisations. When a source says that somebody is a "Knight of Malta", it does not necessarily mean that the individual belongs to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. ] (]) 00:17, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''


:This needs some clarification. The record producer George Avakian received a medal awarding him membership in the "Knights of Malta" in 1984. His papers at The New York Public Library have photographs of the ceremony at which he was inducted. Avakian also stated that he was proud to have been inducted into the same order as Miles Davis. It would be good to establish precisely which order that is. ] (]) 16:27, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: '''consensus not to move''' the pages to the proposed titles at this time, per the discussion below. {{#if:|<small>(])</small>|{{#if:|<small>(])</small>}}}} ]<small>]</small> 10:28, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
----


== Nomination of ] for deletion ==
* ] → {{no redirect|Order of Malta}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Order of Saint John in the Holy Land}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Order of Saint John in the Americas}}
* ] → {{no redirect|List of Grand Masters of the Order of Malta}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Palace of the Grand Master of the Order of Saint John}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Langues of the Order of Saint John}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Order of Malta passport}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Postage stamps and postal history of the Order of Malta}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Orders, decorations, and medals of the Order of Malta}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Flag and coat of arms of the Order of Malta}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Foreign relations of the Order of Malta}}
* ] → {{no redirect|List of diplomatic missions of the Order of Malta}}
* ] → {{no redirect|List of diplomatic missions to the Order of Malta}}
* ] → {{no redirect|List of Permanent Observers of the Order of Malta to the United Nations}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Conquest of Rhodes by the Order of Saint John}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Order of Malta in England}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Order of Malta in Russia}}
– I know this has been brought up before. But I'm not sure it has been brought up trying to embrace the topic as whole, which arguably merits a collected discussion? For a visualisation of the issue, please compare the History section in ]. Actual final choice of naming should arguably be secondary to the concern of ] of ] ] (=] for the contemporary entity) where applicable? The idea is to use "Order of Malta" consistently for the contemporary entity and "Order of Saint John" for the entity prior to Malta. ] concern is in reference to a selection of preexisting articles chosen to be considered considered default as a place of departure for the nomination: ''Contemporary:'' ], ''Pre-Malta:'' ], ], ], ], ]. ] (]) 17:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)


<div class="afd-notice">
*'''Oppose'''. What problem are you trying to solve? ] (]) 23:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article ''']''', a ], is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to ] or whether it should be ].
:: The idea is to try to go at least from four to two names for the same entity. One and the same name would be preferable, but perhaps that is wishing for too much. Anyway, better proposals per ] that I could come up with would be welcome. ] (]) 00:03, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. This would misleadingly conflate multiple historical entities in various centuries and countries under the title of "Order of Malta", with the latter title primarily referring to the contemporary organisation based in Rome. --] (]) 00:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
:: Then why limit to 4 names? I am sure you can find more variations for referring to the same thing throughout its history? ] (]) 01:09, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. We don't rewrite history. Successor organisations such as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and the ] may claim connection to the Knights, but we're not going to treat them as if they were the same thing. There may well be some sorting-out to be done here – I can see a case for splitting the list of grand masters into two, for example, one for the Knights, another for the nineteenth-century successor order – but I see little logic in the naming proposed, and no sources cited which might support such changes. I also note, for what it's worth, that "" occurs more than four times as frequently as " on JSTOR. ] (]) 10:21, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
*: gets twice as many as Knights of St. John on JSTOR. ] (]) 16:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


The article will be discussed at ] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
1) Sovereign Military Order of Malta, 2) Order of Malta, 3) Order of Saint/St./St John, 4) Order of Saint/St./St John of Jerusalem, 5) Saint/St./St John of Jerusalem, 6) Knights Hospitaller, 7) Hospitallers, 8) Knights of Rhodos... and now also 9) Knights of Saint/St./St John. Any more variations? ] (]) 13:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
:I'm sure there are plenty. "" is another very common one. What's your point? ] (]) 21:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.</div> ] (]) 13:23, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
]? ] (]) 11:18, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
:...does not override COMMONNAME. ''Knights Hospitaller → Order of Saint John in the Holy Land'' makes no sense at all. ] (]) 16:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
::: Let's see. So for ], we should have a history article ], then ], then ]... and 4 other names for Coca-Cola for articles about other related topics, such as ] and perhaps add some ]? Would that be helpful? ] (]) 19:31, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
::::Coca-Cola hasn't been around for 900+ years. We'll see what it looks like in 2939. ] (]) 20:34, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
::::: Are you implying a one and only entity here in question has been around for 900+ years? ] (]) 22:24, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. ——] (]) 15:57, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Striving for consistency is something I sympathize with, but for an entity with such a complex history, it tends to have a distorting effect. ] ] 17:43, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
----
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this ] or in a ]. No further edits should be made to this section.''<!-- Template:RM bottom --></div>


== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
== Transition period ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2023-04-26T15:26:35.140487 | Battle of Lepanto 1571.jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 15:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


== Flags of Knights Hospitaller in Saint Peter's Castle Issue ==
During the 17-years transition period between the defeat of Malta and the General Peace, the head of the Order was named Lieutentant of the Magistery and it was ''ad interim'' the Grand Master of the Order. A of '']'' (4 April 1863, Oxoford University Press) argues that "it is an important fact, and implies that the Order could not have been in the disintegrated state in which it is represented to have been".
So it is relevant for the WP article, as well as for the history of that period.


Underneath the picture, the lowest one is '1454-1451', Is this intentional or just a simple error? ] (]) 13:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
The article cited the ''Synoptical Sketch'' whose text is available (at p. 21). One of the authors is the Grand Secretary and Magister in repect of which ''Grand Magister' and ''Grand Master' sound to be the same charge.


== This article indulges nonsense ==
The same N&Q of 4 April 1863 was notably replied few days later by the (April 18, 1863, p.3), as to establish an implicit connection between the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (in the XVIII century) and the ] Freemasonry refounded some decades before. England had a role in the defeat of Napoleon who led the ]. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:08, 11 September 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


This article appears to be substantially written by persons who internalize the anachronistic pretensions of the organization. It would be much improved if it was more objective and realistic. ] (]) 16:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
== Congress of Verona (1822) ==


== What the what? ==
Did the ] in 1822 "guarantee the continued existence of the Catholic order as a sovereign entity"? In terms of international law, is the Order "an establishment of the 19th century, recognized at the Congress of Verona of 1822"? If so, is there a reliable source for these statements? ] (]) 09:03, 22 September 2020 (UTC)


"Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta"
== Exile ==


Well i dont know to use this idea where there were 4 ofes in the title but the comma itself can be separate the 2 ofes between word. So how i can do that discussion? Well this is utter no understand since it would be vertigo to me for reading that full title. ] (]) 19:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
"the formality of electing a brother Chief to discharge the office of Grand Master, and thus to preserve the vitlaiy of the Sovereign Institute, was duty attended to"


== Citizen Count ==
I can't find language ressembling this in the cited sources. I am unfamiliar with the noun "vitlaiy", which I suppose might be a typo of "vitality". I haven't bothered to correct it, because I intend to delete the sentence as "Not supported by cited sources", and because I have no way of knowing if my interpretation is correct. I'll leave that deletion for a couple of days, to give fellow editors who are better-informed than me to correct the passage, or put me straight on my reading of the sources. ] (]) 11:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


The infobox states there are three full S.M.O.M. citizens, but the source is not verifiable. John Sack's book states there are three citizens but there is no citation in the text to any official source and his reporting comes from a personal conversation with Baron Apor in the mid 1950s. Does anyone know of any official source that can corroborate this? ] (]) 14:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
== Sir Miles Davis ==


== Activity of daughter organisations of the order and the Alliance of the Orders of Saint John of Jerusalem ==
Hello, see ] (later years) to find a cited claim that the Knights of Malta honoured the jazz legend with a knighthood. This is impossible and yet there it is. Ha Ha - it is clearly someone's joke from 1988. Question: The notes in this article clearly show they do not honour artists and their work is of a completely different nature. It will not make any sense to a reader. What should be done?] (]) 21:26, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

:{{u|Thelisteninghand}}, I don't get it - why do you say that this is "impossible" and "someone's joke"? ] (]) 01:12, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I have entered some content today. How should this content improved.
::Because both are true.] (]) 15:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Kind regards ] (]) 16:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
:::{{u|Thelisteninghand}}, you have no source or documentation or evidence that this is so. It's just your say-so. It's textbook ]. This is Misplaced Pages, where we summarize what the sources say, not impose our own conjectures. ] (]) 15:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

::::{{u|Elizium23}} Thanks. Incorrect. The evidence is the documentation that shows the Sovereign Order of St John do not and have never honoured artists PLUS the fact stated in this article that they are often impersonated. Yes that's textbook OR agreed. But it is not simply an opinion. I cannot edit on this basis obviously which is why the text is still there. I realise this is WP.] (]) 16:02, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
:Which title would be suitable?
:''Current activity'' maybe?
:Kind regards ] (]) 19:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
::I made it a section. Also, I entered an unrelated competing order into the article. ] (]) 19:53, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:53, 15 December 2024

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Sovereign Military Order of Malta was a good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.
Review: August 9, 2006. (Reviewed version).

Archive discussion

  • /Archive 1 (was an independent talk page when we had two versions of the same article)

Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem

Any information about the Order of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem?

Proposed Merger

The two new articles should not be merged with this one. They are written by representatives of Don Grady, and put forward fraudulent text from a blatantly self styled order. These two articles should be deleted rather than merged into this one.

New Picture

If someone could find the cross of Knights Hospitaller (which I believe was a white cross on a black background) or their seal and replace the portrait of the Knight at the top of the page, that would be a big improvement.

official language

for the constitution of the order http://www.orderofmalta.org/pdf/costituzione.pdf the only official language is the italian.

Sir Miles Davis

Hello, see Miles Davis (later years) to find a cited claim that the Knights of Malta honoured the jazz legend with a knighthood. This is impossible and yet there it is. Ha Ha - it is clearly someone's joke from 1988. Question: The notes in this article clearly show they do not honour artists and their work is of a completely different nature. It will not make any sense to a reader. What should be done?Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:26, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Thelisteninghand, I don't get it - why do you say that this is "impossible" and "someone's joke"? Elizium23 (talk) 01:12, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Because both are true.Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Thelisteninghand, you have no source or documentation or evidence that this is so. It's just your say-so. It's textbook WP:OR. This is Misplaced Pages, where we summarize what the sources say, not impose our own conjectures. Elizium23 (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. Incorrect. The evidence is the documentation that shows the Sovereign Order of St John do not and have never honoured artists PLUS the fact stated in this article that they are often impersonated. Yes that's textbook OR agreed. But it is not simply an opinion. I cannot edit on this basis obviously which is why the text is still there. I realise this is WP.Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:02, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Thelisteninghand, no artist has ever joined the SMOM? I find that hard to believe and even harder to document. Elizium23 (talk) 16:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks Elizium23 Please look for yourself. https://www.orderofmalta.int Thelisteninghand (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Thelisteninghand, I see the front page of their website. Where is the disclaimer, "artists are not welcome as members"? Elizium23 (talk) 00:12, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Elizium23 https://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Knights_of_Malta Sir Miles Davis is not a member. You should provide a citation from SMOM of any case, at any time, of knighthood of a jazz musician. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

In addition to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, there are a number of other groups which call themselves "Knights of Malta". Some of these claim a connection with the Russian priory of the early 19th century. Others are Masonic organisations. When a source says that somebody is a "Knight of Malta", it does not necessarily mean that the individual belongs to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Noel S McFerran (talk) 00:17, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

This needs some clarification. The record producer George Avakian received a medal awarding him membership in the "Knights of Malta" in 1984. His papers at The New York Public Library have photographs of the ceremony at which he was inducted. Avakian also stated that he was proud to have been inducted into the same order as Miles Davis. It would be good to establish precisely which order that is. Reedmanwiki (talk) 16:27, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Julian Chadwick for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Julian Chadwick, a Knight of Justice, is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Julian Chadwick until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Noel S McFerran (talk) 13:23, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Flags of Knights Hospitaller in Saint Peter's Castle Issue

Underneath the picture, the lowest one is '1454-1451', Is this intentional or just a simple error? FusionSub (talk) 13:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

This article indulges nonsense

This article appears to be substantially written by persons who internalize the anachronistic pretensions of the organization. It would be much improved if it was more objective and realistic. 142.181.220.193 (talk) 16:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

What the what?

"Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta"

Well i dont know to use this idea where there were 4 ofes in the title but the comma itself can be separate the 2 ofes between word. So how i can do that discussion? Well this is utter no understand since it would be vertigo to me for reading that full title. 2404:8000:1027:B639:6CFF:13AA:C44D:922A (talk) 19:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Citizen Count

The infobox states there are three full S.M.O.M. citizens, but the source is not verifiable. John Sack's book states there are three citizens but there is no citation in the text to any official source and his reporting comes from a personal conversation with Baron Apor in the mid 1950s. Does anyone know of any official source that can corroborate this? Wcg5003 (talk) 14:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Activity of daughter organisations of the order and the Alliance of the Orders of Saint John of Jerusalem

I have entered some content today. How should this content improved. Kind regards Sarcelles (talk) 16:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Which title would be suitable?
Current activity maybe?
Kind regards Sarcelles (talk) 19:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
I made it a section. Also, I entered an unrelated competing order into the article. Sarcelles (talk) 19:53, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Categories: