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==Non-neutral language in lead== |
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== Infobox "belligerents" doesn't make any sense == |
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Today, I replaced an existing citation with another one and changed the lead wording from existing {{tq|"India claimed that a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet was downed, but that claim has been debunked"}} to {{tq|"India claimed that a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet was downed, but that claim was denied by Pakistan"}}. But my edit was reverted by {{u|Slatersteven}}. I wish to ask him if there really exists a universally accepted agency which can "debunk" such claims made by nations during conflicts. I checked the cited American journal hoping to see something concrete but found that the quote in question was just a passing comment from author Daniel Markey (no expert on military topics) citing a . This WP report is itself based on a which claimed US counted Pak's F-16s; Pentagon later said that they aren't aware of any such count. So the "Foreign Policy" report remains "disputed" as we still don't know if any such count took place or not. Its better to present things as they are. We have nothing substantial to "debunk" Indian claims of downing an F-16. What we are left with are claims and counter-claims from both the nations. The present version of lead is not in compliance with ], ] and ]. Hence, the change is must. ] (]) 17:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:I have restored the ], back to the phrasing that has been in the article since March 2019, and thus soon to complete six years. You attempted to change it, but were reverted by ] who has been watching over this The ] (which is WP '''policy''') is yours to make the case that the phrasing needs to be changed, and to garner a new consensus for it I have added two more sources. If you edit war again, I will first soft ping some administrators and eventually post on their user talk pages. ]] 01:49, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The infobox presently has the Pakistan and Pakistani leaders in the right-side column. This doesn't make any sense, as the attack neither actually hit Pakistani state targets, nor was it intended to hit them. If we go by the intended parties in this conflict, the right side columns say "Jaish-e-Mohammed (alleged)" under "Belligerents" and perhaps list some of the chief militants of JeM, especially if there's evidence Indian intelligence expected them to be there at the time of the bombing; on the other hand, if we go by the actual targets, it should say "None" under "Belligerents" and not lkst any commanders. In either case, however, we should list "None" and "0" under "Units involved" and "Strength", respectively. What definitely ''doesn't'' make sense is the present wording which implies the target was the Pakistani military. It is true that Pakistan subsequently retaliated in the ], but that's a different subject with its own article. ] (]) 18:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:But they were still in charge. ] (]) 18:21, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:No there is not an agency but we do by what the bulk of neutral (I.E. not party to this war) RS say, as there are plenty of sources that say the claim has been debunked. none (as far as I know) saying it is true. ] (]) 13:13, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::All sources saying Indian claims of F-16 were debunked revolves around the dubious "Foreign Policy report" which claimed US counted Pak's F-16s. But Pentagon said it isn't aware of any such count..] (]) 18:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::In charge of what? An empty forest with no one it? The trees that got hurt? Also, you reverted multiple edits by me, some of which were basically minor copyediting jobs or minor expansions of the content based on the given sources, which I find exceedingly difficult to believe are remotely controversial. You can't just revert edits and claim they require "consensus"; you need to also explain what specific objections you have. I understand the infobox revert but not the revert you made to my changes to the body. Was this an accident, by you, in an attempt to just revert my infobox changes? ] (]) 18:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:The Eurasian Times, {{re|Dympies}} is not a reliable source. Please don't lower the discourse here by citing "private Indo-Canadian" ventures. We have found serious scholars stating in books published by university presses (Cornell, Oxford, Michigan) and defence and military analysts writing in ''Asia Policy'', ''Foreign Policy'' and the ''Washington Post'', that India's claim about downing the F-16 has essentially been debunked. If you keep arguing in this manner I will have no option but to report you to administrators. ]] 15:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, I can do that (read ], and ]), and as an example, a commander is the person in command, that is what it means, not that they were a target or combatant. ] (]) 18:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::Whether its the ''Washington Post'' article , ''Asia Policy'' journal or any other source recently added by you, all point towards the ''Foreign Policy'' report. So, there is no need to create a ] in the lead. And when you give too much emphasis on ''Foreign Policy'' report, please do mention that Pentagon said it isn't aware of any such count, which makes the entire report dubious. ] (]) 19:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Can do what? You're not making any sense, and also not responding to my questions. If you don't have any specific objections to my NON-infobox changes, I am going to reinstate my changes. They were really quite minor and I am flummoxed as to what there even is to challenge; this has the smell of ] all over it. ] clearly states to only revert when necessary, and only if you can't make improvements yourself; it also states {{tq|be specific about your reasons in the edit summary}}. I've seen 0 evidence of you even making an attempt to do any of that. ] is about verifiability, but you haven't even made any specific claims about the verifiability of my edits, or even given any specific reasons why you dislike them (besides those in the infobox)! This is thoroughly unsurprising, since my body edits were extremely minor edits, all already verified by the pre-existing sources. ] (]) 18:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::No they don't; the point aplenty to the Indian evidence not being credible. They point aplenty to India's frenzied media culture wading in a tide of wishful thinking. They point aplenty to Indian journalists, working overtime to imagine any which so scenario to explain away any which so uncomfortable fact. The DoD confirmation was just the icing on the cake. ]] 20:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Read ] and do not ]. ] (]) 18:50, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::And it wasn't ''just'' the ''Foreign Policy'' article, {{re|Dympies}}. No less an expert than ] found the Indian claim to have been discredited by the absence of the required DoD announcement about the loss of an F-16—required by US law, that is. He and Heather Williams are cited in the lead. ]] 20:51, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Which claims did I make ''outside'' the infobox which you feel are not verified? ] (]) 18:56, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Is this DoD announcement required in case of F-16s bought by Pakistan from Jordan? I am not sure about it. There have been reports that Pakistan bought 14 F-16s in 2014 from Jordan but quoted only 13 in its official statement.. The Diplomat did notice this confusion over the actual numbers. ] (]) 06:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::There are no commanders listed as belligerents, only India and Pakistan and their respective airforces. No person is named (in the infobox). ] (]) 18:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I'm sorry I did not click on your links. Sir ] is a highly reliable source for me. I don't get into chat room conversations. Apologies but that's the nub of it. Best wishes in your endeavors on WP. ]] 11:58, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Sigh. I fully concede that you have made your objections known about the infobox changes, but you also reverted my changes to the body. This is the last time I will ask this question myself: do you have '''any''' concrete objections to the ''non-''infobox edits? ] (]) 18:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::As for your "source," a story in the Hindustan Times produced verbatim by a source in ] attempting to be third-party, is still Hindustan Times, not third-party. ]] 21:22, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::See below. ] (]) 18:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::Below where you flatly refuse to engage? ] explicitly says it {{tq|is not a ] for the reverter}}, yet that is exactly how you are using it. ] (]) 19:04, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::The original source of information is Hindustan Times. But you can't say no such talk happened between Pentagon officials and them. When this "not aware" thing was widely published in the Indian media, Pentagon never denied it. ] (]) 03:34, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::By the way this article is a comprise that tries to please both sides, do not try and shift the emphasis. ] (]) 18:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::PS Journalists in South Dakota don't say "Pak" for "Pakistan" for one in story titles. It was a dead giveaway. ]] 21:35, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for improving the sourcing, F&F. I'm a little concerned we have too much detail in the lead now; how the US DOD arrived at its conclusions definitely belongs in the body, IMO. Can we shorten it to something like "... a claim rejected by independent military analysts", with the details in a footnote or in the body? ] (]) 16:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Can you explain how my edits do that? Your comments are so vague I have trouble understanding what you are even talking about, but I suspect you might need to review ]. ] (]) 18:55, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Hello {{re|Vanamonde93}} It does have detail but its sentences are highly summarized, given that I agonized aplenty. They have many quotes in the accompanying citations. If someone can use the quotes to write an expansive version of these sentences in the main body, then a true WP:SS summary can result. I trust you to do this, but I don't know how much time you have. Would you like to have a go? |
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::::::::Not yet, I am about to go out, hopefully others will. ] (]) 18:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::But I don't like it when people move the longer bits to the main body, but don't expand them further there in order to elbow out the prevailing gunk. And gunk there is: in this instance the legion added by the Indian media and India's newfound WhatsApp culture to the world of factoid, epiphany, rumor, and dreams. Already in the nearly six years since early 2019, their emanations are the data of anthropology and psychology treatises (witness: Matthews and Robertson's ''Theorizing the Anthropology of Belief: Magic, Conspiracies, and Misinformation'', 2024.) |
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:::::::::Sorry, but this isn't how Misplaced Pages works. ] clearly states that it {{tq|is not a ] for the reverter}}, and that reverters should {{tq|be specific about your reasons in the edit summary}}, and you have failed to provide a reason for your revert to my non-infobox changes, and are completely refusing to even attempt to explain your non-infobox-related reverts. You are very obviously engaging in ]. ] (]) 19:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Slatersteven and I have managed to save the third-party sources in the lead from consorting with the jingoistic battle-cries, but it has required determined vigilance, especially on the part of SS. |
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:::::::::::As I said above, this page has been worked at to a state where neither side's POV is given undue prominence. This is deliberate, it's called compromise, and the one thing we do not need is for it to all kick off again. Thus I was trying to head off any edit waring. We do not need the word Human, as we know what we mean by no casualties, but it's not a major issue). Did all western diplomats say this, or was it only a few? We do not need a list of injuries or damage, it also odd to say there was no damage to people, immediately after mentioning that someone was injured (ditto for no damage to buildings). ] (]) 12:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I've stayed away from this article, but ended up here, I'm not sure how or why, and found new sources, more reflective, looking back at 2019 and thought about adding them. ]] 20:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::{{quote|As I said above, this page has been worked at to a state where neither side's POV is given undue prominence.}} |
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::::Today, I do not have the time. Perhaps I will soon, but I can make no promises. ] (]) 21:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Which "sides" are you even talking about? If one of those sides is the Indian government, sorry, but all reliable sources agree: ''they lied''. There is no reason to take their lies seriously in the pursuit of a "neutral POV"—this is ]. And the consensus from previous discussions has been that the claims of the Indian government should not be reported uncritically on this (and other) affairs, and as a result of this incident and other similar ones, previous RfCs and discussions have led to a number of Indian media sources being downgraded in perceived reliability. All of this has little to do with my edits, frankly, but you seem to labor under a misconception that is worth correcting. |
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:::::I hope you do. Thanks. ]] 21:23, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::{{quote|This is deliberate, it's called compromise, and the one thing we do not need is for it to all kick off again.}} |
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::::::::::::Then why ''did'' you kick it off again, over a complete frivolity? You can't kick off a dispute and then claim it was to prevent dispute—you are the one who initiated it, take some responsibility! Anyways, your argument amounts to "this page should never change because some people's feathers were ruffled in the past", and is especially laughable when the edits being challenged are as minor as they are. |
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::::::::::::{{quote|We do not need the word Human, as we know what we mean by no casualties, but it's not a major issue)}} |
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::::::::::::Finally an actual, substantive discussion of my edits, instead of meaningnless vagueposting. Lead with this next time. |
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:::::::::::: If you already know they are human, why does adding the word change anything? Anyways, you concede it's not a major issue (though that has hardly stopped you from somehow trying to transform it into one). |
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::::::::::::{{tq|Did all western diplomats say this, or was it only a few?}} |
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::::::::::::Did you read the source? No, of course not, because you are using ] expressly as it is not to be used, as means of freezing articles, and thus did not do your due diligence. I changed the wording from {{tq|Some Western diplomats}} to {{tq|Western diplomats in Islamabad}} because the latter is, verbatim, the wording used in the source, whereas the former is not and is unspecific, besides being bad style (the reasons why I changed it). I cannot imagine that ''even'' the basest far right Hindutva ideologue who uncritically believes every word that drops from Modi's mouth would find my wording to be more controversial than the prior wording—if anything, it necessarily limits the scope of the involved officials even more, to just those in Islamabad—so I am once again amazed you are challenging it. It is simply, verbatim, the wording used in the source. |
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::::::::::::{{quote|We do not need a list of injuries or damage, it also odd to say there was no damage to people, immediately after mentioning that someone was injured (ditto for no damage to buildings).}} |
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::::::::::::The reason I made this change is precisely because of the ''prior'' existence of exactly that sort of contradiction. In your preferred version, the article reads "Villagers from the area spoke of four bombs striking a nearby forest and field around 3 am, damaging a building, and injuring a local man... lThe local hospital officials and residents asserted that they did not come across any casualty or wounded people.}} I was confused by this, as anyone would be, because how did the {{tq|villagers}}/{{tq|residents}} both report the bomb {{tq|injuring a local man}} ''and'' that they did not {{tq|come across any... wounded people}}? The apparent contradiction revolved by using slightly more ''specific wording'', which was what all my edits (outside the infobox) were trying to do: they identified a local man received some bruises and cuts, but there were no "real" injuries (and thus no one went to the hospital). This is clear from my version, and completely inexplicable from yours, without tracing down what each source said, as I did. That is the whole and entire reason I mentioned specific injuries/damages at all. And there is no contradiction in my version if you understand what the phrase "other than" means. |
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::::::::::::Finally, re: the infobox, did you see Vanamonde's comment below? ] (]) 13:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::Which source says there was no injuries or damage? ] (]) 13:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Not what I said. Reread please. ] (]) 04:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::Its what we are talking about, this edit ]. ] (]) 10:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*That parameter makes about as much sense as using "infobox military conflict". I think it's use makes sense given the use of military force in the territory of a different sovereign country, but perhaps infobox military operation might be better suited? I have no strong opinion, but the parameter itself is a distraction, discussing this requires discussing the framing of the entire infobox. ] (]) 21:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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*:That's a much better solution, thank you. Using {{tl|Infobox military operation}} didn't occur to me, but that's obviously the most appropriate infobox here. ] (]) 22:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 April 2024 == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 December 2024 == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|2019 Balakot airstrike|answered=yes}} |
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{{edit extended-protected|2019 Balakot airstrike|answered=yes}} |
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] (]) 19:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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On February 26, 12 Mirages took off from multiple air bases, crossed over into the Pakistani air space and carried out attacks on the JeM terror camp. IAF pilots dropped five Spice 2000 bombs, out of which four penetrated the rooftops of the building in which the terrorists were sleeping. The attacks were carried out at 3:30 am and within a few minutes after dropping bombs on their targets, the IAF jets returned to their bases. |
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Hello, i want to edit friendly fire incident. I want to add recently concluded IAF Court martial enquiry. Also I want to add additional information regarding sattellite image part, this information would really contribute to the article. Hence please allow me to contribute<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> |
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:Hello {{ping|Shah030000}}, please copy here what you want to change in the format "'''I'd like to change X to Y'''" or "'''I'd like to insert X between Y and Z'''" followed by the ] needed to backup those changes. --] (]) 19:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:I'd like to insert Jeffrey Lewis, director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Project at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies, who has 15 years' experience in analyzing satellite images of weapons sites and systems, confirmed that the high-resolution satellite picture showed the structures in question. |
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The aircraft used in the attack belonged to the No 7 and No 9 squadrons of the Indian Air Force and included the non-upgraded planes as the upgraded Mirages of the No 1 squadron did not have the air-to-ground strike capability at that time. |
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:"The high-resolution images don't show any evidence of bomb damage," he said. Lewis viewed three other high-resolution Planet Labs pictures of the site taken within hours of the image provided to Reuters. |
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:between A Reuters investigation based on high-resolution satellite imagery by Planet Labs noted an unchanged landscape when compared and to an April 2018 satellite photo. |
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:here is reference to my source so please kindly allow me to edit as it will contribute to your article. Thank you |
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:<ref>https://www.reuters.com/article/world/satellite-images-show-buildings-still-standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V/</ref> ] (]) 11:17, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 December 2024 == |
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The weapons: Apart from IAF’s highly-skilled pilots and the Research & Analysis Wing’s (RAW) accurate intel, India spread out a line of weaponry and aircraft from its arsenal. While Mirage 2000 were used to drop bombs on targeted sites, a set of other Mirages with Su-30MKI combat aircraft kept the Pakistan air force planes away from causing any hindrance or launching any counter-offensive. ] (]) 21:19, 27 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 22:31, 27 April 2024 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|2019 Balakot airstrike|answered=yes}} |
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] (]) 11:14, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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I'd like to insert Jeffrey Lewis, director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Project at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies, who has 15 years' experience in analyzing satellite images of weapons sites and systems, confirmed that the high-resolution satellite picture showed the structures in question. |
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"The high-resolution images don't show any evidence of bomb damage," he said. Lewis viewed three other high-resolution Planet Labs pictures of the site taken within hours of the image provided to Reuters. |
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between A Reuters investigation based on high-resolution satellite imagery by Planet Labs noted an unchanged landscape when compared and to an April 2018 satellite photo. |
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here is reference to my source so please kindly allow me to edit as it will contribute to your article. Thank you |
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<ref>https://www.reuters.com/article/world/satellite-images-show-buildings-still-standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V/</ref> |
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:I think we already say this more or less. ] (]) 12:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes, I agree. ]] 12:54, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
Today, I replaced an existing citation with another one and changed the lead wording from existing "India claimed that a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet was downed, but that claim has been debunked"
to "India claimed that a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet was downed, but that claim was denied by Pakistan"
. But my edit was reverted by Slatersteven. I wish to ask him if there really exists a universally accepted agency which can "debunk" such claims made by nations during conflicts. I checked the cited American journal hoping to see something concrete but found that the quote in question was just a passing comment from author Daniel Markey (no expert on military topics) citing a Washington Post report. This WP report is itself based on a Foreign Policy report which claimed US counted Pak's F-16s; Pentagon later said that they aren't aware of any such count. So the "Foreign Policy" report remains "disputed" as we still don't know if any such count took place or not. Its better to present things as they are. We have nothing substantial to "debunk" Indian claims of downing an F-16. What we are left with are claims and counter-claims from both the nations. The present version of lead is not in compliance with WP:NEUTRAL, WP:LEAD and WP:ATT. Hence, the change is must. Dympies (talk) 17:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Hello, i want to edit friendly fire incident. I want to add recently concluded IAF Court martial enquiry. Also I want to add additional information regarding sattellite image part, this information would really contribute to the article. Hence please allow me to contribute— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shah030000 (talk • contribs)
I'd like to insert Jeffrey Lewis, director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Project at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies, who has 15 years' experience in analyzing satellite images of weapons sites and systems, confirmed that the high-resolution satellite picture showed the structures in question.
"The high-resolution images don't show any evidence of bomb damage," he said. Lewis viewed three other high-resolution Planet Labs pictures of the site taken within hours of the image provided to Reuters.
between A Reuters investigation based on high-resolution satellite imagery by Planet Labs noted an unchanged landscape when compared and to an April 2018 satellite photo.
here is reference to my source so please kindly allow me to edit as it will contribute to your article. Thank you
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
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