| Revision as of 17:50, 25 November 2005 editMartg76 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users5,688 edits Latin as official language?← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 00:51, 20 December 2024 edit undoClueBot III (talk | contribs)Bots1,373,130 editsm Archiving 1 discussion to Talk:Austria-Hungary/Archive 8. (BOT) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
|
{{Talk header|search=yes}} |
|
==Flag of Austria-Hungary== |
|
|
|
{{ArticleHistory |
|
The flag shown in the article is NOT the flag of Austria-Hungary. It is the common merchant ensign (well, not entirely, two coat of arms have to be added). The Austrian-Hungarian monarchy didn't have a common national flag. Each of the two entities had their own one. There was just a common merchant, marine and war ensign (see for further details) ] 19:42, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|action1=GAN |
|
|
|action1date=15 November 2007 |
|
|
|action1result=not listed |
|
|
|action1oldid=171597305 |
|
|
|currentstatus=FGAN |
|
|
|topic=geography |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Former countries|AH-taskforce=yes|AH-taskforce-importance=Top|structureneeded=yes}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject European history|importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Eastern Europe|importance=Top}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Austria|importance=High|AH-taskforce=yes|AHImp=Top}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Hungary|importance=Top}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina|importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Croatia|importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Czech Republic|importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Germany|importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Serbia|importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Slovenia|importance=High}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{Section sizes}} |
|
|
{{Annual readership}} |
|
|
{{old move|date=21 July 2023|destination=Austria–Hungary|result=no consensus|link=Special:Permalink/1167583161#Requested move 21 July 2023}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{Archives|auto=long|search=yes|bot=ClueBot III}} |
|
:We've had some confusion about the flag, so I'm glad you have helped clarify this. Do you think that the website you refer to would allow us to use their flags? |
|
|
|
<!--2160/24 = 90 days ~ 3 months--> |
|
: ] 20:49, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis |
|
|
| age=2160 |
|
|
| archiveprefix=Talk:Austria-Hungary/Archive |
|
|
| numberstart=3 |
|
|
| maxarchsize=75000 |
|
|
| header={{Automatic archive navigator}} |
|
|
| minkeepthreads=5 |
|
|
| minarchthreads=1 |
|
|
| format= %%i |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{Nutshell|title=Flags|Austria-Hungary had no official flag and the consensus, established over a number of years, is not to display any flags in the infobox. Any attempt to overturn this would need to take account of the past discussions: |
|
|
* ] |
|
|
* ] |
|
|
* ] |
|
|
* ] |
|
|
* ] |
|
|
* ] |
|
|
}} |
|
|
== Language of the article == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
The state of English in this article is frequently poor. I see the article contains no facility to edit, which I would gladly do but cannot, therefore I would recommend that an educated, fluent native speaker of standard English checks the article thoroughly and makes the required amendments. One silly example 'The population was composed by about 2500 people ...' What on earth is 'was composed by'? The author means, of course, 'was composed of' or 'comprised'. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
:: Fwiw, I don't know either way, but suggests that design was also used as a civil ensign… — ] 21:26, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The current way the flag of Austria-Hungary is shown, as of 26/5/2024 == |
|
The book ''Österreich-Ungarn, Die Donaumonarchie in historischen Dokumenten, Salzburg 1984.'' (Austria-Hungary, The Danube Monarchy in historical documents) written by Alexander Sixtus von Reden states the following (translated from German): ''Common flags of both states (i.e. the Danube monarchy) were the red-white-red war and naval flag with a crowned shield of arms added (in use since 1786)'' (example: '''War Ensign of 1880-1915 (Kriegsflagge))''' in ) ''The common merchant flag is a combination of the war flag and the Hungarian flag supplemented with the small Hungarian coat of arms'' (example: '''Merchant Ensign, 1869-1918''' in ). |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
While I appreciate the dedication to accuracy (and covering all of your bases,) whoever made the edit included the "military standard" of Austria-Hungary, unless I am mistaken, when they intended to include the flag of the Emperor and Empress. Furthermore, I don't believe showing the flag of the Emperor and Empress, or a military standard if that's what they wanted to do, is needed at all. The way I personally would represent Austria-Hungary in flags accurately would be to show the black and yellow Habsburg banner, over the flag of the Kingdom of Hungary, which is over the flag of the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. If you see the way the article ] showcases both the flag of Hungary and Croatia, I would love to show this in a similar manner, just with 3 flags as the law in Transleithania required the flag of Hungary and Croatia be alongside each other or otherwise represented in the Hungarian diet and House of Magnates. If that is not possible, or not preferential, I would suggest merely showing the Habsburg banner of black and yellow and the "civil" flag of Hungary, without any coat of arms, as this was a common combination of flags to be flown contemporarily in the empire. Of course I would prefer flying the 3 flags, as by Transleithanian law Croatia-Slavonia had to be represented, and thus the flag of Hungary cannot suffice. If these changes cannot be made, I just suggest reverting back to showing the "see also ]," as it worked and prevented any discourse over it for the time it existed. Edit: It appears that it has been reverted back to the "see also ]." so this talk is essentially pointless unless you want to implement the changes I suggested. ] (]) 01:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
In the German language Misplaced Pages we had a similar discussion (]). |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:The rumored flag is just the civil ensign. The page can just use the Austrian Empire flag and move on. ] (]) 12:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
Unfortunately, I don't think that we can use the flags of and under the GNU-FDL(see their copyright statements). ] 23:54, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Multiple flags == |
|
Since the flag shown in the article is wrong, I think we should remove it. ] 12:19, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What if we add te flags of the multiple countries, such as Cisleithania, Hungary. Croatia-Slavonia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina, while keeping the page about the flags, to explain it in more detail. ] (]) 17:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
Is it o.k. when I remove the flag in 4 days? ] 22:45, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Unnecessary clutter in the infobox. We have a separate page that's even prominently linked. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 17:38, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
I'll just remove it today. ] 18:15, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Status of the Slovene language (1882) == |
|
== Absolute Monarch? == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"Beginning in 1882, there was a Slovene majority in the Diet of Carniola and in the capital ]; they replaced German with Slovene as their primary official language." |
|
''Those two were linked by a government under a monarch wielding, in theory, absolute power, although in practice the power of the monarch was limited. The monarch’s common government was responsible for the army, navy, foreign policy, and the customs union.'' |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Are there any sources for that? I don't seem to find anything on that, also not in other languages on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 20:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
How accurate is the claim that the dual monarch held absolute power? What I've read elsewhere suggested that the monarch did in fact wield absolute power as Emperor of Austria, having authority (which was exercised on occasion) to suspend constitutional government and make law as an autocrat, his powers as King of Hungary were more limited by the Diet. ] 17:21, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== I made a flag == |
|
:Depends on what you mean by absolute power. In theory he did have the power to suspend the constitution and pass unilateral decrees. However, he almost always consulted fairly widely and respected the wishes of regional diets and politicians in both Hungary and Cisleithania because he knew that his powerbase was increasingly fragile. He wanted to ensure continued loyalty from the nationalities, many of whom saw him as their "defender" to some extent. I think that fits the bill for not using his absolute power in practice. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I made a flag that is non-official, can I add it? ] (]) 15:02, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
] 20:42, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:No, sorry. ] (<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>) 15:04, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
== National anthem == |
|
|
|
|
|
The national anthem of Austria-Hungary was not ]. It had the same melody but different lyrics (''Gott erhalte, Gott beschütze, unsern Kaiser, unser Land...''). Additionally, I am not quite sure if the anthem was also the national anthem of the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary. I try to find out. ] 10:39, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
By the way, that's the German text of the anthem since 1854: |
|
|
|
|
|
1. Gott erhalte, Gott beschütze |
|
|
Unsern Kaiser, unser Land! |
|
|
Mächtig durch des Glaubens Stütze, |
|
|
Führ' er uns mit weiser Hand! |
|
|
Laßt uns seiner Väter Krone |
|
|
Schirmen wider jeden Feind! |
|
|
|: Innig bleibt mit Habsburgs Throne |
|
|
Österreichs Geschick vereint! :| |
|
|
|
|
|
2. Fromm und bieder, wahr und offen |
|
|
Laßt für Recht und Pflicht uns stehn; |
|
|
Laßt, wenns gilt, mit frohem Hoffen |
|
|
Mutvoll in den Kampf uns gehn |
|
|
Eingedenk der Lorbeerreiser |
|
|
Die das Heer so oft sich wand |
|
|
|: Gut und Blut für unsern Kaiser, |
|
|
Gut und Blut fürs Vaterland! :| |
|
|
|
|
|
3. Was der Bürger Fleiß geschaffen |
|
|
Schütze treu des Kaisers Kraft; |
|
|
Mit des Geistes heitren Waffen |
|
|
Siege Kunst und Wissenschaft! |
|
|
Segen sei dem Land beschieden |
|
|
Und sein Ruhm dem Segen gleich; |
|
|
|: Gottes Sonne strahl' in Frieden |
|
|
Auf ein glücklich Österreich! |
|
|
|
|
|
4. Laßt uns fest zusammenhalten, |
|
|
In der Eintracht liegt die Macht; |
|
|
Mit vereinter Kräfte Walten |
|
|
Wird das Schwere leicht vollbracht, |
|
|
Laßt uns Eins durch Brüderbande |
|
|
Gleichem Ziel entgegengehn |
|
|
|: Heil dem Kaiser, Heil dem Lande, |
|
|
Österreich wird ewig stehn! :| |
|
|
|
|
|
5.An des Kaisers Seite waltet, |
|
|
Ihm verwandt durch Stamm und Sinn, |
|
|
Reich an Reiz, der nie veraltet, |
|
|
Uns're holde Kaiserin. |
|
|
Was als Glück zu höchst gepriesen |
|
|
Ström' auf sie der Himmel aus: |
|
|
|: Heil Franz Josef, Heil Elisen, |
|
|
Segen Habsburgs ganzem Haus! :| |
|
|
|
|
|
6.Heil auch Öst'reichs Kaisersohne, |
|
|
Froher Zukunft Unterpfand, |
|
|
Seiner Eltern Freud' und Wonne, |
|
|
Rudolf tönt's im ganzen Land, |
|
|
Unsern Kronprinz Gott behüte, |
|
|
Segne und beglücke ihn, |
|
|
|: Von der ersten Jugendblüthe |
|
|
Bis in fernste Zeiten hin. :| |
|
|
|
|
|
] 10:39, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:The Austrian National Anthem's words were changed to honour each emperor in turn, though using the same tune. The original 1797 version was Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser for Franz II. After he died in 1835 the new emperor Ferdinand's anthem began "Segen Öst'reichs hohem Sohne / Unserm Kaiser Ferdinand!" ("Blessings to Austria's high son / Our Emperor Ferdinand!"). After he abdicated in 1848, the original words were reinstated for Franz Josef for a few years before the 1854 version was introduced. Apparently they never had time to rewrite the words for emperor Karl in 1916... -- ] 22:28, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Austro-Hungarian Empire etc == |
|
|
|
|
|
I've moved the links to the term ']' to that page which I've disambiguated. People often use this terminology for the country prior to 1867. Suggestions for further link consolidation are welcome... --] 00:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I am glad to see the problem resolved. |
|
|
] 19:52, 15 July 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I've never heard "Austro-Hungarian Empire" for pre-1867. I've heard "Austrian Empire," "Austria", "the Habsburg Monarchy"... ] ] 00:39, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: I figure it's local bias, people from areas that used to be part of the Kingdom of Hungary tend to refer to it like that because it may have been supremely Austrian but the Hungarians still had precedence/influence. Regardless, it is indicative that Transleithania was of the same size or larger than Cisleithania for at least 68 years before the Ausgleich (and after that they existed like that for 51 year). --] 01:12, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the Kingdom of Hungary was the Kingdom of Hungary from 1699. But that doesn't mean that "Austro-Hungarian Empire" is an appropriate term for the whole entity before 1867. ] ] 04:50, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: You'd have to go through many of the articles to make sure the links are accurate. The article where I found this was ] (and ]), for example, where it refers to the ] as Austro-Hungarian (which is not so wrong because it wasn't part of either Cisleithania or Transleithania) in 1856. --] 11:40, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Cisleithania/Transleithania is post-1867 terminology, isn't it? And did the Military Frontier still exist in 1856? At any rate, while the Military Frontier existed, it was administratively separate from Hungary, but my understanding was that it was still considered a part of the Kingdom of Hungary. ] ] 19:38, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: I don't know about the timing of that terminology, I was merely trying to say that the Hungarian domain was noticably large before the creation of Austria-Hungary (indeed, that was one of the main reasons for the latter action). The Military Frontier was finally abolished only in 1881, so it had to have existed in 1856. I don't know whether the Austrians considered it part of KoH, but it was centrally administered by Austrian military leaders from Vienna, not Budapest, so I wouldn't go so far to say that it was a part of KoH. --] 20:52, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Qertis wrote: ''This is absolutely ridiculous. Misplaced Pages should not become a collection of nonsenses.'' |
|
|
|
|
|
: Please go through all those links and verify that the references themselves aren't "nonsensical", too. --] 20:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: And just as I was beginning to think that I may just be going off on a tangent here, my watchlist came up with . The paragraph explicitly talks of 18th century, and yet the term used is "Austro-Hungarian Empire". And that anon. user mistakenly linked it directly to Austria-Hungary. --] 20:27, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:OK, so lets fix it and don't let anon users become confused. ] 23:09, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I think we ought to create an article at ] which discusses the Habsburg agglomeration as it existed between 1526 and 1918, in order to avoid both incorrect usage of ] and a useless link to ]. Currently, ] redirects to ], which is a decidedly confusing article, in that it's not sure what it's about. (At the very least, all the different lists on ] ought to be moved elsewhere, I think.) ] ] 00:06, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I fully agree, such an article is badly needed here. ] 01:01, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I've had a go at creating it at ]. Mostly it's just trying to elaborate what the monarchy consisted of, and how it was organized. Pretty barebones. But a start, I think. ] ] 03:58, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: Thanks. --] 09:52, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
On that note, I created ] where a dozen more links were easily consolidated, and I'm still not done. --] 11:59, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Map== |
|
|
Hmm... that map needs formatting, but I don't know how to do it. Could anyone teach me, or should I give the job to someone else? |
|
|
] 19:52, 15 July 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: I fixed it up. You can see instructions at ]. --] |
|
|
|
|
|
== Flag of Austria-Hungary (II) == |
|
|
|
|
|
As discussed above, there was no common national flag of Austria Hungary (the one shown in the box is therefore wrong). Additionally the flag shown in the box (red-white-red without any emblem) became the official flag of the Republic of Austria (1918), but was not used before. I am going to remove them within a week. Any comments? ] 12:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I removed the flags. ] 22:52, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Border in the maps == |
|
|
|
|
|
The correct border between Austria and Hungary crossed in the middle of the Istrian peninsula dividing it in two parts approximately equal. |
|
|
:As far as I know the drawing of the border is correct. ] 22:46, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Improvement drive== |
|
|
The article on ] has been listed to be improved on ]. Add your vote there if you want to support the article.--] 06:17, 4 August 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Govt. Structure correction? == |
|
|
|
|
|
I believe you need to change it from the "mid-1900's" to the early-1900's". |
|
|
|
|
|
The disputes between the halves of the empire culminated in the '''mid-1900s''' in a prolonged constitutional crisis -- triggered by disagreement over the language of command in Hungarian army units, and deepened by the advent to power in Budapest (April 1906) of a Hungarian nationalist coalition. |
|
|
|
|
|
== rise of naziism == |
|
|
|
|
|
twice it's suggested in this article that the power-vacuum in austria following WW1 somehow led to the rise of naziism 10 years later. Now I'm not a big history buff, but this seems a dubious claim. Hitler's ascendancy as I understand it was the result of events more or less exclusively within Germany (collapse of the mark, prolonged economic hardship, hatred of communism, resentment of jews, etc.) Is the article suggesting that a strong authority in Austria would have acted as a check on Hitler, and would not have been so easily subjugated by him? |
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps just the wording of the article should be changed, so it's not suggested that the Austro-hungarian dissolution led directly to Hitler's rise. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Well its a complicated issue. A lot of the same issues present in Germany were in Austria as well. ie. fear of Eastern Europeans, anti-semetism, instability, etc.... However, I would agree that the actual rise of the nazi party was largely a domestic German affair. What I would say needs clarification is that the destruction of Austria-Hungary as a central European power to check Germany allowed Germany to easily divide and conquer the resulting nation states. ] 00:41, 19 November 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Added infobox == |
|
|
|
|
|
I replaced the old infobox with the standard one. The old one cluttered up the edit page with code. The red links in the infobox need to be fixed though. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about those things (population density, etc) can fix them.--] | ] 07:27, 25 November 2005 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Latin as official language? == |
|
|
|
|
|
Where does the information that Latin was ''Austria-Hungary'''s offical language come from? |
|
|
AFAIK, the official languages for the two halves were different. At least in ], I am reasonably sure that laws were enacted in all major languages. Latin may have been an official language in the Hungarian half. ] 17:50, 25 November 2005 (UTC) |
|
The state of English in this article is frequently poor. I see the article contains no facility to edit, which I would gladly do but cannot, therefore I would recommend that an educated, fluent native speaker of standard English checks the article thoroughly and makes the required amendments. One silly example 'The population was composed by about 2500 people ...' What on earth is 'was composed by'? The author means, of course, 'was composed of' or 'comprised'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.10.233 (talk) 22:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
While I appreciate the dedication to accuracy (and covering all of your bases,) whoever made the edit included the "military standard" of Austria-Hungary, unless I am mistaken, when they intended to include the flag of the Emperor and Empress. Furthermore, I don't believe showing the flag of the Emperor and Empress, or a military standard if that's what they wanted to do, is needed at all. The way I personally would represent Austria-Hungary in flags accurately would be to show the black and yellow Habsburg banner, over the flag of the Kingdom of Hungary, which is over the flag of the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. If you see the way the article Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen showcases both the flag of Hungary and Croatia, I would love to show this in a similar manner, just with 3 flags as the law in Transleithania required the flag of Hungary and Croatia be alongside each other or otherwise represented in the Hungarian diet and House of Magnates. If that is not possible, or not preferential, I would suggest merely showing the Habsburg banner of black and yellow and the "civil" flag of Hungary, without any coat of arms, as this was a common combination of flags to be flown contemporarily in the empire. Of course I would prefer flying the 3 flags, as by Transleithanian law Croatia-Slavonia had to be represented, and thus the flag of Hungary cannot suffice. If these changes cannot be made, I just suggest reverting back to showing the "see also Flags of Austria-Hungary," as it worked and prevented any discourse over it for the time it existed. Edit: It appears that it has been reverted back to the "see also Flags of Austria-Hungary." so this talk is essentially pointless unless you want to implement the changes I suggested. Hestatus24 (talk) 01:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
What if we add te flags of the multiple countries, such as Cisleithania, Hungary. Croatia-Slavonia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina, while keeping the page about the flags, to explain it in more detail. Masachiku (talk) 17:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
"Beginning in 1882, there was a Slovene majority in the Diet of Carniola and in the capital Laibach (Ljubljana); they replaced German with Slovene as their primary official language."
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
