Misplaced Pages

Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 13:54, 30 April 2022 editJpgordon (talk | contribs)Checkusers, Administrators82,332 edits →Fabrication not forgery← Previous edit Latest revision as of 03:53, 21 December 2024 edit undoGrumpylawnchair (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers5,449 edits Restored revision 1264225712 by Jellyfish (talk): Disruptive editingTags: Twinkle Undo 
(71 intermediate revisions by 37 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Skip to talk}} {{Skip to talk}}
{{Talk header}} {{Talk header}}
⚫ {{Controversial}}
{{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement|relatedcontent=yes}} {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement|relatedcontent=yes}}
⚫ {{Controversial}}
⚫ {{Not a forum|small=yes}}
⚫ {{FAQ}}
{{Article history|action1=PR {{Article history|action1=PR
|action1date=02:51, 27 September 2005 |action1date=02:51, 27 September 2005
Line 24: Line 26:
|currentstatus=FFA |currentstatus=FFA
}} }}
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1={{WikiProject Jewish history|class=B|importance=High}} {{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|1=
{{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Books|class=B}} {{WikiProject Books}}
{{WikiProject Russia|class=B|importance=high|hist=yes|relig=yes|ethno=yes|lit=yes}} {{WikiProject Russia|importance=high|hist=yes|relig=yes|ethno=yes|lit=yes}}
{{WikiProject Politics|class=B|importance=low}} {{WikiProject Politics|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|class=B|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject Alternative Views|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Skepticism|class=b|importance=high}} {{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=high}}
}}
{{WP1.0|v0.5=pass|class=b|importance=low|category=Langlit}}
{{Press
|author = Ohad Merlin
|title = Misplaced Pages in Arabic: A hotbed for bigotry, misinformation, and bias - investigative report
|date = November 3, 2024
|org = ]
|url = https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-827351
|lang =
|quote = Thus reads the first paragraph of Arabic Misplaced Pages's entry of one of the most famous and vile blood libels of history, purposely leaving room for the thought that the forged work is, in fact, "leaked" and "real." For comparison, the first paragraph of the parallel English entry stresses that the Protocols are "a fabricated text"; the German version focuses on its antisemitic nature and the fact that it's based on fictional characters; the French entry calls it "a text invented from scratch" and a forgery; and the Persian entry deems it "a fake and anti-Semitic document."
|archiveurl =
|archivedate = <!-- do not wikilink -->
|accessdate = November 4, 2024
}} }}
⚫ {{Off topic warning|small=yes}}
⚫ {{faq}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config {{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{Aan}} |archiveheader = {{Aan}}
Line 44: Line 56:
{{Archive box|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=1||units=month|auto=yes|search=yes}} {{Archive box|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=1||units=month|auto=yes|search=yes}}


== Incorrect change ==
== Rebutting arguments of validity with an explanatory section ==

Although the nature of the forgery is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt there are still subsantial numbers of people who believe in the validity of certain arguments presented within the Protocols, regardless of their authenticity, and so it may be desirable to introduce a section for addressing the key arguments found within the Protocols to show that even the arguments themselves, independent of the overall document, lack merit.

This would go a long way to dispelling many of the ancilliary myths that have accumulated over the passage of a century. It would also flesh out the article more and provide a sound basis for further rebuttals. ] (]) 23:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:17, 28 February 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: However, rebuttal is not the purpose of this article. See ]. Anyway, the Protocols don't really contain anything that can be glorified as "arguments". ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

:: I am not quite sure what you mean by ‘rebuttal is not the purpose of this article’. There clearly are several sections that attempt to do so, for example the section on the Berne Trial features a possible interpretation and counter arguments on the implications of that trial. Perhaps you meant something else? ] (]) 17:46, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
::: I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a possible interpretation and counter arguments". What language precisely constitutes a possible interpretation? ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:39, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

::: The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to present facts according to the best available sources and attributed opinions according to the most qualified commentators. If that serves to dispel non-facts, well and good, but it is not our task (and forbidden by ]) to construct our own arguments for or against anything. Not all articles follow this rule, but they are supposed to. In the case of the Protocols, their nature means it isn't even clear what a "rebuttal" would look like. Personally I think that few people, including some academics who have written about them, have actually read the Protocols. Let me open them at random and quote a typical paragraph. From Protocol No. 24: {{tq|"Certain members of the seed of David will prepare the kings and their heirs, selecting not by right of heritage but by eminent capacities, inducting them into the most secret mysteries of the political into schemes of government, but providing always that none may come to knowledge of the secrets. The object of this mode of action is that all may know that government cannot be entrusted to those who have not been inducted into the secret places of its art."}} It makes no sense to ask for a "rebuttal" of this, since it is just barely-comprehensible drivel that someone made up. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:06, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

:::: Since I am new to editing Misplaced Pages and you appear to be experienced I will take your word that is the standard practice. If that is the case then I believe the other sections should be edited to remove the appearances of attempted rebuttals. How should we go about that? ] (]) 15:43, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
::::: Please tell us what you consider to be "appearances of attempted rebuttals". ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 18:54, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Sorry for the late reply, I had assumed I already replied. Just looking at the final paragraph of the Berne Trial Section: “ Evidence presented at the trial, which strongly influenced later accounts up to the present, was that the Protocols were originally written in French by agents of the Tzarist secret police (the Okhrana). However, this version has been questioned by several modern scholars. Michael Hagemeister discovered that the primary witness Alexandre du Chayla had previously written in support of the blood libel, had received four thousand Swiss francs for his testimony, and was secretly doubted even by the plaintiffs. Charles Ruud and Sergei Stepanov concluded that there is no substantial evidence of Okhrana involvement and strong circumstantial evidence against it.”] (]) 05:23, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::: We can report claims and rebuttals made by reliable sources. We can't make our own rebuttals. The difference is fundamental to Misplaced Pages policy. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 09:06, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: Well of course, the section I am proposing will follow the style of the above. It certainly shouldn’t be a random essay slapped into the middle of the page. There are several existing sources touching on one aspect or another of the arguments presented in the Protocols that could be mentioned. It seems to me reasonable then since there is already a section featuring the claims and rebuttals of the Berne Trial and so on, to have a section likewise for the key arguments. ] (]) 16:47, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

::::::: ] argued that although the document was a forgery, the narrative was factual. But unless there is a reliable source that analyzes the thesis presented by the ''Protocols'', we cannot present rebuttals. In any case, as the article ] says, "Conspiracy theories resist falsification and are reinforced by circular reasoning: both evidence against the conspiracy and an absence of evidence for it are re-interpreted as evidence of its truth, whereby the conspiracy becomes a matter of faith rather than something that can be proved or disproved." How does one disprove the claim that all political groups other than tsarists are working for the Jews? ] (]) 12:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: Thanks for mentioning this author. It is indeed as you say, certain claims are unfalsifisble and therefore can’t be addressed in a satisfactory way. Perhaps even the large majority of claims are like that. Although I haven’t analyzed the entire document, it seems likely there are claims that are falsifiable and can be discussed. ] (]) 16:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

== Cannot find claim in Source ?! ==

Regarding this segment here:

“Identifiable phrases from Joly constitute 4% of the first half of the first edition, and 12% of the second half; later editions, including most translations, have longer quotes from Joly.”

Has Source #22, a google book entry. I read through it and explicitly searched as well but could not find this (neither 4% nor 12%, both numeral or in wording).

Someone please verify. If true, statement should be removed. ] (]) 15:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Source is named: De Michelis 2004, p. 8. ] (]) 15:02, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

:The percentages are there. I don't find the part after the semicolon. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


{{To|Ogress}} You created "Cesare G. De Michelis argues that it was manufactured in the months after the First Zionist Congress in September 1902" by modifying existing text. The First Zionist Congress was in 1897, not 1902, moreover De Michelis does not argue that. Per the citation at the end of the sentence, De Michelis is referring to a different "Pan-Russian Zionist Congress" held in that month. Though it is true that some other authors propose the document was written soon after the First Zionist Congress, that belongs to the theory that it was written in France, a theory now largely discredited. De Michelis and others who specialise on it believe it is a Russian production that contains internal evidence it was written no earlier than 1901. Falk's book claims that it was a production of the Russian Orthodox Church and published first in 1905, the first of which is a fringe claim and the second is objectively wrong. Falk also bizarrely claims that the work he says was published in 1905 was one of the causes of the ] that happened in 1903! We should discard that book as a source. Bronner's book also has glaring errors, see ] for examples. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 06:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
== Herzl and Zionism ==
:{{to|Zero0000}} Ok! Make sure you edit the ] page; that is where I got the cites from! They're even in the intro there. ] 13:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


== Is the Dewey decimal actually 109? ==
"The text, which nowhere advocates for Zionism, resembles a parody of Herzl's ideas".
It has to be one or the other; doesn't it? To parody ideas you usually have to present them, even if ironically. --] (]) 14:02, 4 August 2021 (UTC)


It seems like a troll edit based off the expelled from 109 countries inside joke thing. If it isn’t a coincidence, could we get a footnote?
== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
Edit: also could be a pun on “Jewy” “Jewry” “Jew-y”
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
] (]) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-08-18T11:23:17.579820 | TheTimes exposes TheProtocols as a forgery.jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 11:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)


== The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai ==
== Fabrication not forgery ==


I was just reading the 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai' (https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Secrets_of_Rabbi_Simon_ben_Yohai) and this document sounds a lot like the 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. In in, the jews lay out their plan to destroy "Edom" (Rome) though subversion. First, they would weaponize Ismael (Arabs) to attack Edom and then bringing in "Four Arms" (Chaturbhuja in Hindusim. Many Hindu deities are depicted with four arms) to finish the job after the Aabs weakened Edom. Some may argue that this is playing out today in the west. In the book 'Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World' (1977) by the historians Patricia Crone and Michael Cook they postulate that this document was the manuscript for Islam. Indeed, the leader of "Ismael" the Arabs is described as a redheaded warlord. I have read the claim that Allah and Muhammad were parodies of Attila the Hun and his uncle Ruglia waging war against Rome because the jews wanted the Arabs to wage war against Eastern Rome (Byzantine). My point here is that there are documents that outline a jewish conspiracy to destroy Edom even two thousand years ago, why is it unfathomable that the Protocols was simply an updated 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai'?
Suggestion that every instance of the word "forgery" on this page should be replaced by the word 'fabrication'. A forgery is a copy of an original, or at least in the style of an original, which in this case is false and tremendously pernicious. ] (]) 09:04, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
:It's been referred to as a "forgery" by reliable sources for over a century. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 03:53, 21 December 2024

Skip to table of contents
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:

  • You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
  • You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

Further information
The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
  1. Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
  2. Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

  • Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
  • Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This page is not a forum for general discussion about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion at the Reference desk.
? view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q: Why does the first sentence of the article say the Protocols is fraudulent? Aren't Misplaced Pages articles supposed to be neutral?
A: Misplaced Pages articles are absolutely required to maintain a neutral point of view. It has long been established that this work is fraudulent; its author(s) plagiarized a work of fiction, changing the original, Gentile characters into the secret leaders of a Jewish conspiracy. That plagiarized, fictional material is presented as though it were fact. That constitutes a literary fraud.
Q: So Misplaced Pages is saying that there was not a secret Jewish conspiracy to rule the world?
A: That is an entirely separate issue from the established fact that the Protocols is fraudulent.
Q: Why not let the reader decide for him- or herself whether the document is fraudulent or not? Doesn't drawing conclusions constitute WP:OR?
A: The article does not draw any conclusions; journalists drew the conclusion in 1921, and numerous scholars have reaffirmed it since then. It is not original research to state that the the Protocols is fraudulent; it is a well-established scholarly fact, as documented and sourced in the article. Numerous similar examples exist throughout Misplaced Pages; for example, the Hitler diaries are demonstrably fake, and the WP article says so—and sources it.
Q: But if the fraud is a well-established fact, why do some groups still assert that the Protocols is a genuine document?
A: It is difficult to answer why anyone still believes that the Protocols is a real document, other than to say that some people have beliefs that are simply immune to facts (Exhibit A: Holocaust deniers). To those whose minds are made up, it makes no difference that the Protocols have been debunked countless times—or that so much incriminating Holocaust evidence survives that a dozen museums can't hold it all.
Q: But you can't disprove the contention that a bunch of Jews got together sometime in the mid-19th century and plotted a conspiracy, can you?
A: As already stated, the conspiracy issue is not relevant to this article. But to answer your question, if one was told that the Moon is a giant ball of Gouda cheese covered with a foot-thick layer of dirt, it would be their responsibility to prove them.
Former featured articleThe Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 19, 2006.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 27, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
February 23, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
November 12, 2009Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article
This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.
WikiProject iconJewish history High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconBooks
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook
WikiProject iconRussia: Language & literature / History / Religion / Demographics & ethnography High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages.
To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the language and literature of Russia task force.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the religion in Russia task force.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the demographics and ethnography of Russia task force.
WikiProject iconPolitics Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconAlternative views Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconSkepticism High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Media mentionThis article has been mentioned by a media organization:
  • Ohad Merlin (November 3, 2024). "Misplaced Pages in Arabic: A hotbed for bigotry, misinformation, and bias - investigative report". The Jerusalem Post. Retrieved November 4, 2024. Thus reads the first paragraph of Arabic Misplaced Pages's entry of one of the most famous and vile blood libels of history, purposely leaving room for the thought that the forged work is, in fact, "leaked" and "real." For comparison, the first paragraph of the parallel English entry stresses that the Protocols are "a fabricated text"; the German version focuses on its antisemitic nature and the fact that it's based on fictional characters; the French entry calls it "a text invented from scratch" and a forgery; and the Persian entry deems it "a fake and anti-Semitic document."


Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10


This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.

Incorrect change

To editor Ogress: You created "Cesare G. De Michelis argues that it was manufactured in the months after the First Zionist Congress in September 1902" by modifying existing text. The First Zionist Congress was in 1897, not 1902, moreover De Michelis does not argue that. Per the citation at the end of the sentence, De Michelis is referring to a different "Pan-Russian Zionist Congress" held in that month. Though it is true that some other authors propose the document was written soon after the First Zionist Congress, that belongs to the theory that it was written in France, a theory now largely discredited. De Michelis and others who specialise on it believe it is a Russian production that contains internal evidence it was written no earlier than 1901. Falk's book claims that it was a production of the Russian Orthodox Church and published first in 1905, the first of which is a fringe claim and the second is objectively wrong. Falk also bizarrely claims that the work he says was published in 1905 was one of the causes of the Kishinev pogrom that happened in 1903! We should discard that book as a source. Bronner's book also has glaring errors, see a previous talk section for examples. Zero 06:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

To editor Zero0000: Ok! Make sure you edit the First Zionist Congress page; that is where I got the cites from! They're even in the intro there. Ogress 13:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Is the Dewey decimal actually 109?

It seems like a troll edit based off the expelled from 109 countries inside joke thing. If it isn’t a coincidence, could we get a footnote? Edit: also could be a pun on “Jewy” “Jewry” “Jew-y” 2A00:23C6:D603:8001:1425:6F4:83C:618F (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai

I was just reading the 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai' (https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Secrets_of_Rabbi_Simon_ben_Yohai) and this document sounds a lot like the 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. In in, the jews lay out their plan to destroy "Edom" (Rome) though subversion. First, they would weaponize Ismael (Arabs) to attack Edom and then bringing in "Four Arms" (Chaturbhuja in Hindusim. Many Hindu deities are depicted with four arms) to finish the job after the Aabs weakened Edom. Some may argue that this is playing out today in the west. In the book 'Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World' (1977) by the historians Patricia Crone and Michael Cook they postulate that this document was the manuscript for Islam. Indeed, the leader of "Ismael" the Arabs is described as a redheaded warlord. I have read the claim that Allah and Muhammad were parodies of Attila the Hun and his uncle Ruglia waging war against Rome because the jews wanted the Arabs to wage war against Eastern Rome (Byzantine). My point here is that there are documents that outline a jewish conspiracy to destroy Edom even two thousand years ago, why is it unfathomable that the Protocols was simply an updated 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai'?

Categories: