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Revision as of 13:35, 28 November 2022 editPhi (talk | contribs)10 edits →Forgery for over 100 years..now a fabrication...even though parts of it aren't← Previous edit Latest revision as of 03:53, 21 December 2024 edit undoGrumpylawnchair (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers5,449 edits Restored revision 1264225712 by Jellyfish (talk): Disruptive editingTags: Twinkle Undo 
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{{Press
|author = Ohad Merlin
|title = Misplaced Pages in Arabic: A hotbed for bigotry, misinformation, and bias - investigative report
|date = November 3, 2024
|org = ]
|url = https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-827351
|lang =
|quote = Thus reads the first paragraph of Arabic Misplaced Pages's entry of one of the most famous and vile blood libels of history, purposely leaving room for the thought that the forged work is, in fact, "leaked" and "real." For comparison, the first paragraph of the parallel English entry stresses that the Protocols are "a fabricated text"; the German version focuses on its antisemitic nature and the fact that it's based on fictional characters; the French entry calls it "a text invented from scratch" and a forgery; and the Persian entry deems it "a fake and anti-Semitic document."
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|accessdate = November 4, 2024
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== Herzl and Zionism == == Incorrect change ==

"The text, which nowhere advocates for Zionism, resembles a parody of Herzl's ideas".
It has to be one or the other; doesn't it? To parody ideas you usually have to present them, even if ironically. --] (]) 14:02, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-08-18T11:23:17.579820 | TheTimes exposes TheProtocols as a forgery.jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 11:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

== Fabrication not forgery ==

Suggestion that every instance of the word "forgery" on this page should be replaced by the word 'fabrication'. A forgery is a copy of an original, or at least in the style of an original, which in this case is false and tremendously pernicious. ] (]) 09:04, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
:It's been referred to as a "forgery" by reliable sources for over a century. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

: The choice of word has been discussed a great deal, check the archives of this page. I don't agree that "forgery" implies there is an original. For example if I make a painting in the style of Rembrandt and try to pass it off as a genuine newly-discovered Rembrandt, that will be called art forgery by almost everyone. It doesn't have to be a copy of a real Rembrandt. The key aspect of forgery is to create something that is not what you say it is. Of course "fabrication" is also a true description, but we aren't going to change the word without another discussion and we have had several of those already. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
::I did say "or at least in the style of". This document is a forgery 'in the style of' which genuine articles or creator? However, I do not have the time or the energy to enter into a discussion; so be it. ] (]) 16:36, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
:::watch your tone, no need to be rude ] (]) 01:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)


{{To|Ogress}} You created "Cesare G. De Michelis argues that it was manufactured in the months after the First Zionist Congress in September 1902" by modifying existing text. The First Zionist Congress was in 1897, not 1902, moreover De Michelis does not argue that. Per the citation at the end of the sentence, De Michelis is referring to a different "Pan-Russian Zionist Congress" held in that month. Though it is true that some other authors propose the document was written soon after the First Zionist Congress, that belongs to the theory that it was written in France, a theory now largely discredited. De Michelis and others who specialise on it believe it is a Russian production that contains internal evidence it was written no earlier than 1901. Falk's book claims that it was a production of the Russian Orthodox Church and published first in 1905, the first of which is a fringe claim and the second is objectively wrong. Falk also bizarrely claims that the work he says was published in 1905 was one of the causes of the ] that happened in 1903! We should discard that book as a source. Bronner's book also has glaring errors, see ] for examples. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 06:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
== Forgery for over 100 years..now a fabrication...even though parts of it aren't ==
:{{to|Zero0000}} Ok! Make sure you edit the ] page; that is where I got the cites from! They're even in the intro there. ] 13:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


== Is the Dewey decimal actually 109? ==
Fabrication implies 100% of the book is made-up, but the description, on the same page no less, literally says the opposite. ] (]) 22:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
:Fake, fabrication, forgery, counterfeit, falsification, sham, fraud, hoax, phony, makey-uppy - whatever word you want to use, it's a vile antisemitic document that is not what it purports to be, and has been used by racists for much too long to create an inaccurate and inflammatory portrait of Jews and Judaism. It's unfortunate -- and depressing -- to think that some people still believe in it even today. ] (]) 22:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)


It seems like a troll edit based off the expelled from 109 countries inside joke thing. If it isn’t a coincidence, could we get a footnote?
== New Book ==
Edit: also could be a pun on “Jewy” “Jewry” “Jew-y”
I suggest to add the following book to Further Reading:
] (]) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)


== The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai ==
Hagemeister, Michael (2022): ''The Perennial Conspiracy Theory: Reflections on the History of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”'',
London, New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-1-03-206015-6.


I was just reading the 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai' (https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Secrets_of_Rabbi_Simon_ben_Yohai) and this document sounds a lot like the 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. In in, the jews lay out their plan to destroy "Edom" (Rome) though subversion. First, they would weaponize Ismael (Arabs) to attack Edom and then bringing in "Four Arms" (Chaturbhuja in Hindusim. Many Hindu deities are depicted with four arms) to finish the job after the Aabs weakened Edom. Some may argue that this is playing out today in the west. In the book 'Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World' (1977) by the historians Patricia Crone and Michael Cook they postulate that this document was the manuscript for Islam. Indeed, the leader of "Ismael" the Arabs is described as a redheaded warlord. I have read the claim that Allah and Muhammad were parodies of Attila the Hun and his uncle Ruglia waging war against Rome because the jews wanted the Arabs to wage war against Eastern Rome (Byzantine). My point here is that there are documents that outline a jewish conspiracy to destroy Edom even two thousand years ago, why is it unfathomable that the Protocols was simply an updated 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai'?
--] (]) 13:34, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 03:53, 21 December 2024

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Incorrect change

To editor Ogress: You created "Cesare G. De Michelis argues that it was manufactured in the months after the First Zionist Congress in September 1902" by modifying existing text. The First Zionist Congress was in 1897, not 1902, moreover De Michelis does not argue that. Per the citation at the end of the sentence, De Michelis is referring to a different "Pan-Russian Zionist Congress" held in that month. Though it is true that some other authors propose the document was written soon after the First Zionist Congress, that belongs to the theory that it was written in France, a theory now largely discredited. De Michelis and others who specialise on it believe it is a Russian production that contains internal evidence it was written no earlier than 1901. Falk's book claims that it was a production of the Russian Orthodox Church and published first in 1905, the first of which is a fringe claim and the second is objectively wrong. Falk also bizarrely claims that the work he says was published in 1905 was one of the causes of the Kishinev pogrom that happened in 1903! We should discard that book as a source. Bronner's book also has glaring errors, see a previous talk section for examples. Zero 06:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

To editor Zero0000: Ok! Make sure you edit the First Zionist Congress page; that is where I got the cites from! They're even in the intro there. Ogress 13:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Is the Dewey decimal actually 109?

It seems like a troll edit based off the expelled from 109 countries inside joke thing. If it isn’t a coincidence, could we get a footnote? Edit: also could be a pun on “Jewy” “Jewry” “Jew-y” 2A00:23C6:D603:8001:1425:6F4:83C:618F (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai

I was just reading the 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai' (https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Secrets_of_Rabbi_Simon_ben_Yohai) and this document sounds a lot like the 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. In in, the jews lay out their plan to destroy "Edom" (Rome) though subversion. First, they would weaponize Ismael (Arabs) to attack Edom and then bringing in "Four Arms" (Chaturbhuja in Hindusim. Many Hindu deities are depicted with four arms) to finish the job after the Aabs weakened Edom. Some may argue that this is playing out today in the west. In the book 'Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World' (1977) by the historians Patricia Crone and Michael Cook they postulate that this document was the manuscript for Islam. Indeed, the leader of "Ismael" the Arabs is described as a redheaded warlord. I have read the claim that Allah and Muhammad were parodies of Attila the Hun and his uncle Ruglia waging war against Rome because the jews wanted the Arabs to wage war against Eastern Rome (Byzantine). My point here is that there are documents that outline a jewish conspiracy to destroy Edom even two thousand years ago, why is it unfathomable that the Protocols was simply an updated 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai'?

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