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Revision as of 19:47, 11 August 2018 editBeyond My Ken (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers263,286 edits →Suggested Corrections to avoid false claims.← Previous edit Latest revision as of 03:53, 21 December 2024 edit undoGrumpylawnchair (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers5,449 edits Restored revision 1264225712 by Jellyfish (talk): Disruptive editingTags: Twinkle Undo 
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{{Press
|author = Ohad Merlin
|title = Misplaced Pages in Arabic: A hotbed for bigotry, misinformation, and bias - investigative report
|date = November 3, 2024
|org = ]
|url = https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-827351
|lang =
|quote = Thus reads the first paragraph of Arabic Misplaced Pages's entry of one of the most famous and vile blood libels of history, purposely leaving room for the thought that the forged work is, in fact, "leaked" and "real." For comparison, the first paragraph of the parallel English entry stresses that the Protocols are "a fabricated text"; the German version focuses on its antisemitic nature and the fact that it's based on fictional characters; the French entry calls it "a text invented from scratch" and a forgery; and the Persian entry deems it "a fake and anti-Semitic document."
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== Author unknown? ==

In the infobox, we say that the author of this document is unknown, but most credible sources say that it was authored by ] of the ], since the opening of Russia's archives and the information becoming available to historical researchers. That is how the French Misplaced Pages (which tends to be of a higher intellectual quality than the English Misplaced Pages... just saying) has it. ] (]) 16:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
:That's nice; the assertion in ] is unsourced, so can you furnish a ] (which are required on the English Misplaced Pages where we are all intellectually slumming.) ] (]) 23:42, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
: The Golovinski/Okhrana story was given in evidence by one person (du Chayla) at the Bern Trial in return for the payment of 4000 Swiss Francs (a large sum in those days). Du Chayla had an unsavory past, including writing in support of the Blood Libel. Du Chayla's evidence was widely accepted as definitive, but recent research by de Michelis, Hagameister and others has shown that there is no evidence in support of it. There is in fact no evidence of Okhrana involvement and some evidence against it. The true author of the Protocols is unknown, just like our article says. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:57, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

== Removed additions made to article by editor blocked for being disruptive ==

] was blocked today for disruptive editing, see . Among the evidence presented that resulted in the block were diffs that show "a strong undercurrent of anti-semitism". Therefore I do not think it is right that the section Claíomh Solais re-wrote, "Political conspiracy background" should stay as he altered it. I have put it back to the version before that editor's edits began. If anyone feels there was valuable information there, they can restore it. Thanks] (]) 00:05, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
:I'm sorry, but you cannot take a general statement about the editor's contributions and act on it in specific cases unless you '''''actually make the case that their edits degarded the article.''''' In other words, please tell us '''''specifically''''' what in CS's changes did not improve the article, or were unsupported by sources, or violated OR or other policies. A general statement is not sufficient. ] (]) 00:12, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
::Why do you want to keep the additions made by an editor blocked partly for having ""a strong undercurrent of anti-semitism"" to the article on the most notorious anti-semitic forgery in history? This editor has been "blocked with an expiration time of indefinite" .] (]) 00:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


== Incorrect change ==
I looked at the text and I think it could be useful after some careful review. At the moment the sourcing is not clear as some parts have no source and some are sourced to the nonexistent "Webman 2012". I believe it should be Webman's 2011 book "The Global Impact..." which does have relevant material on page 60. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:42, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


{{To|Ogress}} You created "Cesare G. De Michelis argues that it was manufactured in the months after the First Zionist Congress in September 1902" by modifying existing text. The First Zionist Congress was in 1897, not 1902, moreover De Michelis does not argue that. Per the citation at the end of the sentence, De Michelis is referring to a different "Pan-Russian Zionist Congress" held in that month. Though it is true that some other authors propose the document was written soon after the First Zionist Congress, that belongs to the theory that it was written in France, a theory now largely discredited. De Michelis and others who specialise on it believe it is a Russian production that contains internal evidence it was written no earlier than 1901. Falk's book claims that it was a production of the Russian Orthodox Church and published first in 1905, the first of which is a fringe claim and the second is objectively wrong. Falk also bizarrely claims that the work he says was published in 1905 was one of the causes of the ] that happened in 1903! We should discard that book as a source. Bronner's book also has glaring errors, see ] for examples. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 06:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't know who is the blocked user, but his edits in this particular article seem appropriate and constructive, just like some of his additions in the article about antisemitism. Also bear in mind that the fact that a user was blocked for something doesn't necessarily mean we are supposed to revert all his contributions.--] (]) 01:53, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
:{{to|Zero0000}} Ok! Make sure you edit the ] page; that is where I got the cites from! They're even in the intro there. ] 13:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


== Is the Dewey decimal actually 109? ==
== Edit warring ==


It seems like a troll edit based off the expelled from 109 countries inside joke thing. If it isn’t a coincidence, could we get a footnote?
I've ] this article for 3 days. Please discuss your content disputes here on the talk page rather than ], which is unhelpful to all. Thanks. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:1.1em/1em Arial Black;letter-spacing:-0.09em">]+]</u> 08:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Edit: also could be a pun on “Jewy” “Jewry” “Jew-y”
] (]) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)


== Suggested Corrections to avoid false claims. == == The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai ==
{{ctop|Not happening}}
I'm not sure it's true to claim that the document is a forgery (copy), since it reproduces nothing, and seeks no profit from false attribution. It is either a fiction, propaganda, or hoax. For example, Crichton's Eaters of the Dead is a fictional account attributed to Ibn Fadlan - it is a fiction, but not propaganda. The Voynich Manuscript is a Hoax - but not propaganda or fiction. The Protocols are clearly a Hoax, and clearly Propaganda. So, as far as I know 'inflationary language' (misrepresenting it as a crime) is a form of deception just as pseudoscientific claims (not following the scientific method's warranty of due diligence), and pseudo-rational (sophistry) are a deception. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:It is a forgery in the sense that it claims to have been written by Jews, and just because it doesn't seek a financial profit doesn't mean there's not a motive. Crichton would acknowledge that Eaters of the Dead is fiction, the author of the Protocols claimed that it was real. ] because that would just please the antisemites who insist that it's real. ] (]) 15:08, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Well you're just as bad as they are then. And I'll let my objection stand. It's absolutely positively not a copy (forgery). It MAY be a fraud (if for money) and it is certainly a hoax and propaganda. It's not a middle ground position - it's a falsehood. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:We're not going to downplay the falsehood of the Protocols. The only people who want to are antisemitic trolls who want to pull a "fine people on both sides" argument. ] (]) 16:55, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
{{cbot}}


I was just reading the 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai' (https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Secrets_of_Rabbi_Simon_ben_Yohai) and this document sounds a lot like the 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. In in, the jews lay out their plan to destroy "Edom" (Rome) though subversion. First, they would weaponize Ismael (Arabs) to attack Edom and then bringing in "Four Arms" (Chaturbhuja in Hindusim. Many Hindu deities are depicted with four arms) to finish the job after the Aabs weakened Edom. Some may argue that this is playing out today in the west. In the book 'Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World' (1977) by the historians Patricia Crone and Michael Cook they postulate that this document was the manuscript for Islam. Indeed, the leader of "Ismael" the Arabs is described as a redheaded warlord. I have read the claim that Allah and Muhammad were parodies of Attila the Hun and his uncle Ruglia waging war against Rome because the jews wanted the Arabs to wage war against Eastern Rome (Byzantine). My point here is that there are documents that outline a jewish conspiracy to destroy Edom even two thousand years ago, why is it unfathomable that the Protocols was simply an updated 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai'?
*'''Comment''' - I am going to disagree with both sides here. ''First:'' In English 'forgery' does not exclusively mean "fake copies" of a thing, it can also be used to refer to fakes made "in imitation of" or "falsely claimed to be by" among other things. Also, as mentioned above, profit (financial or otherwise) is not a prerequisite of a 'forgery' (although the people who created this one did so with full intention to use it and benefit from it). However I can understand why a person might think in terms of a more limited definition of the term, especially if English is not their first language. ''Second:'' Disputing the most-correct terminology to describe the nature of this hoax is ''not'' proof of anti-semitism or bad faith. The commenter has ''agreed'' that this was a hoax (though even that would still be a fair question in an open debate, but one that is already reasonably well-answered with ] and ] in the article). This is not about ], it is a technical point about terminology. With respect, the editor is ''over-reacting'' here and failing to ]. ] (]) 09:36, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
:*The ''Protocols'' are not so much a forgery as they are a hoax. They are not what they are held out to be. ] (]) 19:46, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

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Incorrect change

To editor Ogress: You created "Cesare G. De Michelis argues that it was manufactured in the months after the First Zionist Congress in September 1902" by modifying existing text. The First Zionist Congress was in 1897, not 1902, moreover De Michelis does not argue that. Per the citation at the end of the sentence, De Michelis is referring to a different "Pan-Russian Zionist Congress" held in that month. Though it is true that some other authors propose the document was written soon after the First Zionist Congress, that belongs to the theory that it was written in France, a theory now largely discredited. De Michelis and others who specialise on it believe it is a Russian production that contains internal evidence it was written no earlier than 1901. Falk's book claims that it was a production of the Russian Orthodox Church and published first in 1905, the first of which is a fringe claim and the second is objectively wrong. Falk also bizarrely claims that the work he says was published in 1905 was one of the causes of the Kishinev pogrom that happened in 1903! We should discard that book as a source. Bronner's book also has glaring errors, see a previous talk section for examples. Zero 06:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

To editor Zero0000: Ok! Make sure you edit the First Zionist Congress page; that is where I got the cites from! They're even in the intro there. Ogress 13:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Is the Dewey decimal actually 109?

It seems like a troll edit based off the expelled from 109 countries inside joke thing. If it isn’t a coincidence, could we get a footnote? Edit: also could be a pun on “Jewy” “Jewry” “Jew-y” 2A00:23C6:D603:8001:1425:6F4:83C:618F (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai

I was just reading the 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai' (https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Secrets_of_Rabbi_Simon_ben_Yohai) and this document sounds a lot like the 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. In in, the jews lay out their plan to destroy "Edom" (Rome) though subversion. First, they would weaponize Ismael (Arabs) to attack Edom and then bringing in "Four Arms" (Chaturbhuja in Hindusim. Many Hindu deities are depicted with four arms) to finish the job after the Aabs weakened Edom. Some may argue that this is playing out today in the west. In the book 'Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World' (1977) by the historians Patricia Crone and Michael Cook they postulate that this document was the manuscript for Islam. Indeed, the leader of "Ismael" the Arabs is described as a redheaded warlord. I have read the claim that Allah and Muhammad were parodies of Attila the Hun and his uncle Ruglia waging war against Rome because the jews wanted the Arabs to wage war against Eastern Rome (Byzantine). My point here is that there are documents that outline a jewish conspiracy to destroy Edom even two thousand years ago, why is it unfathomable that the Protocols was simply an updated 'The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai'?

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