| Revision as of 13:28, 22 December 2018 editFRadical Bot (talk | contribs)4,159 editsm →top: MiszaBot.* --> Lowercase sigmabot III at {{Auto archiving notice}} per BRFATag: AWB← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 04:24, 22 December 2024 edit undoSineBot (talk | contribs)Bots2,555,318 editsm Signing comment by 2600:8802:5913:1700:7597:DD0E:35B5:1044 - "" | ||
| (36 intermediate revisions by 22 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{Talkheader}} | |||
| {{Skip to talk}} | {{Skip to talk}} | ||
| {{Talk header}} | |||
| {{Controversial}} | {{Controversial}} | ||
| {{Round in circles|search=yes}} | {{Round in circles|search=yes}} | ||
| {{Article history | |||
| |action1=GAN | |||
| |action1date=14:25, 22 February 2006 | |action1date=14:25, 22 February 2006 | ||
| |action1result=listed | |action1result=listed | ||
| |action1oldid=40713471 | |action1oldid=40713471 | ||
| |action2=GAR | |action2=GAR | ||
| |action2date=18 July 2009 | |action2date=18 July 2009 | ||
| Line 13: | Line 13: | ||
| |action2result=delisted | |action2result=delisted | ||
| |action2oldid=302692106 | |action2oldid=302692106 | ||
| |currentstatus=DGA | |currentstatus=DGA | ||
| |topic=Socsci | |topic=Socsci | ||
| |otd1date=2004-06-19|otd1oldid=5183741 | |||
| |otd2date=2005-06-19|otd2oldid=15486963 | |||
| |otd3date=2006-06-19|otd3oldid=59401666 | |||
| |otd4date=2007-06-19|otd4oldid=139141079 | |||
| |otd5date=2008-06-19|otd5oldid=220089584 | |||
| |otd6date=2009-06-19|otd6oldid=297167862 | |||
| |otd7date=2010-06-19|otd7oldid=369024570 | |||
| |otd8date=2013-06-19|otd8oldid=560655448 | |||
| |otd9date=2018-06-19|otd9oldid=846512879 | |||
| |otd10date=2021-06-19|otd10oldid=1029390368 | |||
| |otd11date=2023-06-19|otd11oldid=1160692755 | |||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Rosenberg, Julius And Ethel|1= | |||
| {{WikiProjectBannerShell|collapsed=yes|1= | |||
| {{WikiProject Biography |
{{WikiProject Biography}} | ||
| {{WikiProject Espionage |
{{WikiProject Espionage|importance=Mid}} | ||
| {{WikiProject New York City |
{{WikiProject New York City|importance=Low}} | ||
| {{WikiProject United States History |
{{WikiProject United States History|importance=Mid}} | ||
| {{WikiProject Criminal Biography|importance=top |
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|importance=top}} | ||
| {{WikiProject Jewish history |
{{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=Low}} | ||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{OnThisDay|date1=2004-06-19|oldid1=5183741|date2=2005-06-19|oldid2=15486963|date3=2006-06-19|oldid3=59401666|date4=2007-06-19|oldid4=139141079|date5=2008-06-19|oldid5=220089584|date6=2009-06-19|oldid6=297167862|date7=2010-06-19|oldid7=369024570|date8=2013-06-19|oldid8=560655448|date9=2018-06-19|oldid9=846512879}} | |||
| {{Auto archiving notice|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=60|dounreplied=yes}} | |||
| {{User:MiszaBot/config | {{User:MiszaBot/config | ||
| |archiveheader = {{Talkarchivenav}} | |archiveheader = {{Talkarchivenav}} | ||
| |maxarchivesize = 100K | |maxarchivesize = 100K | ||
| |counter = |
|counter = 3 | ||
| |minthreadsleft = |
|minthreadsleft = 1 | ||
| |minithreadstoarchive = 1 | |||
| |algo = old( |
|algo = old(730d) | ||
| |archive = Talk:Julius and Ethel Rosenberg/Archive %(counter)d | |archive = Talk:Julius and Ethel Rosenberg/Archive %(counter)d | ||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{Vital article|level=5|topic=People|subpage=Criminals|class=B}} | |||
| == Age at death / limitations of sidebar == | == Age at death / limitations of sidebar == | ||
| Line 46: | Line 54: | ||
| == Change "Later developments" section to use chronological order == | |||
| == '''Julius''' and '''Ethel Rosenberg''' were Jewish ] citizens..." in lede paragraph is ] == | |||
| The lede paragraph of his article was modified on 20:49, 28 May 2018 to say <blockquote>"'''Julius''' and '''Ethel Rosenberg''' were Jewish ] citizens... ".</blockquote>. | |||
| The religious background of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg (both were from Jewish families) is already dealt with in the section "Early lives and education". If there is a notable connection between the religious and cultural milieu and the acts for which this couple became notable, it's not documented by a reliable source. Likewise, if either Julius or Ethel Rosenberg were observant Jews, that is also not documented by a reliable source. | |||
| I think it will benefit our readers if we untangle this section. New sources of information emerged at specific dates, which we can use: | |||
| Neither of the two ways it's generally understood that the Rosenbergs could be called "Jewish" is relevant to the acts for which the Rosenbergs became notable. Stating the fact in the article's lede paragraph is ]. I reverted the change accordingly. ] (]) 02:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| * 1995 publication of Venona decryptions (material that was available to the FBI but not made public during the trial) | |||
| * 2001 David Greenglass later statements | |||
| * 2008 release of grand jury testimony | |||
| * 2008 Morton Sobell later statements | |||
| * 2009 Vassiliev notebooks published online | |||
| The Rosenberg children and their campaign for the exoneration of Ethel Rosenberg belong in a different section. | |||
| I am going to try to sort this out. ] (]) 18:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| : 1995 Venona descriptions: | |||
| "...For example, a 1944 cable (which gives the name of Ruth Greenglass in clear text) says that Ruth's brother David is being recruited as a spy by his sister (that is, Ethel Rosenberg) and her husband..." | |||
| But Mr. David Greenglass wasn’t the brother of Mrs. Ruth Greenglass. He was her spouse! | |||
| This phrase must be written so: | |||
| For example, a 1944 cable (which gives the name of Ruth Greenglass in clear text) says that Ruth's spouse David is being recruited as a spy by his sister (that is, Ethel Rosenberg) and her husband. --] (]) 07:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, Jewish can be an ethnic description. No, neither of them were religiously observant: they were Communists. I agree this doesn't need to be in the lede.--] (]) 08:40, 29 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Clarification about Ethel == | |||
| == NPOV regarding the Venona project conclusions regarding their guilt and overall tone of article. == | |||
| The previous version of this article claimed at the start that both Julius and Ethel spied for the Soviets and provided info to them. But all of the article’s sources that I looked at said that Ethel was involved in recruiting but ''not'' in providing info to the Soviets. So that opening paragraph seemed to me to be factually incorrect (according to the article’s sources), so I changed it. My change may not have been the best way to address this issue, I don’t know; but if someone ends up reverting my change, then please make other changes to make the article match what it says in the sources. (Or else provide a source for the specific claim that Ethel passed info to the Soviets.) — ] (]) 00:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| The article seems to state a "contentious" regarding the interpretation of the VENONA documents that I am not convinced exists. Yes, it may be true that a majority of historians feel the Venona project documents do in deed support the guilt of the Rosenberg's, the fact is that their has been some legitimate doubt raised about whether the documents have been properly translated or not by respectable sources. As such, I would rewrite the VENONA documents section to better reflect this. There is dispute by relevant individuals as to whether the VENONA documents are properly translated and as such, whether they do in deed support the long held belief that certain individuals, such as the Rosenberg's and Alger Hiss where indeed guilty of spying for the Soviets. Critics believe that while the documents do indeed show spying was going on, it's not clear that they real-life individuals accused of said spying are indeed the code-names mentioned in the document. The documents do not mention real names so it requires speculation to put the real names to the code-named people in the document. This article should reflect this reality. There is also the issue of whether the immorality of framing the Rosenberg's, even if they where guilty to some or all degree, makes their execution a grave injustice, as well as whether they was such they deserve the death penalty anyways. If any notable persons has argued their they believe the Rosenberg's role in the espionage did not constitute a death penalty level offense that that should be added to the article. --] (]) 22:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| : Misplaced Pages is based off of what the reliable sources say. In this particular article, what serious (as opposed to popular) historians have written on the subject. Who are the historians who agree with you and disagree with the ones currently used in the article? ] (]) 22:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| : @] The ] Soviet cable decrypts mentioning the Soviet agent named "Julius" were important, but also corroborated by the detective work of FBI special agent Robert Lamphere in tying ] to the agent "Julius" in the decrypts - which also mentioned the agent was married to a woman named "Ethel". That part of the decrypts was very explicit and not prone to mistranslation - it was very specific about agent "Julius" and his wife "Ethel" - if anyone burned the Rosenbergs, it was their Soviet case handler. With the VENONA cables, the testimony of Ethel Rosenberg's brother and her sister-in-law, and the Soviet courier ], there were no ambiguities regarding the Rosenbergs' guilt. | |||
| : We already cite reliable sources questioning the morality of executing the Rosenbergs, up to and including their sons, the Meeropol brothers. We cite reliable sources who agree that the Rosenbergs were guilty. We also cite one of the most eminent legal scholars and defense counsels in the United States, ] in the lede paragraph as saying the Rosenbergs were "guilty - and framed" of espionage. We also cite very reliable sources, the VENONA decrypts and the FBI investigators, as well as several historians who discussed the case together as supporting the guilty verdict in the Rosenbergs' case. You're welcome to present these other sources here and we'll examine them and form a consensus on whether to add what they have to say - but remember ] - these other sources would have to be a significant minority view - not a small minority, as Jimbo Wales says in the ] guideline. ] (]) 21:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Ethel's Innocence == | ||
| This article would benefit from including information on the prosecution’s knowledge of intercepted Soviet communications related to the Rosenberg case. These communications detailed espionage activities using codenames for various spies, yet notably referred to “Ethel” directly in the description of the role codenamed “Antenna,” believed to refer to Ethel’s husband, Julius. It is significant that the prosecution was aware of this fact, and there is evidence suggesting that Ethel’s execution was intended, in part, to conceal the extent to which the United States had successfully intercepted and decoded Soviet messages. ] (]) 17:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| The current article is good at explaining the intel lost, and some of the impacts, but lacks a motive as to why the Rosenberg's did what they did. I'm sure early cold-war propaganda is untrustworthy, but time and evidence should present an answer to "why" they did it. ] (]) 03:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :Money. ] (]) 08:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | : |
||
| :::The records, Soviet as well as FBI's and ]'s own recollections, give a picture of the Rosenbergs as committed Communists who wanted to aid the Soviet Union by helping the Soviets gain the secrets of nuclear weapons (including ]'s and ]'s early thermonuclear weapon concepts - which helped Sakharov conceive designs for Soviet thermonuclear weapons later). ] (]) 01:30, 4 July 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | :It's speculative.--] (]) 01:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC) | ||
| == Bias and unrelated information in this article? == | |||
| ::Wrong. | |||
| ::https://www.justsecurity.org/105873/ethel-rosenberg-wrongful-execution/ ] (]) 04:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Not a spy == | |||
| It seems to me that this article has a very strange non-independent tone that isn't in line with the Misplaced Pages guidelines. Also, I'm concerned that this article contains an immense amount of unrelated information about other people, but does not accurately represent the historical debate and ongoing discussion about the Rosenbergs. I feel this page should be marked for major review. ] (]) 05:08, 27 October 2018 (UTC) | |||
| https://www.justsecurity.org/105873/ethel-rosenberg-wrongful-execution/ <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
Latest revision as of 04:24, 22 December 2024
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 2 years  |
| Skip to table of contents |
 | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
 | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
 | Julius and Ethel Rosenberg was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
 | Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on June 19, 2004, June 19, 2005, June 19, 2006, June 19, 2007, June 19, 2008, June 19, 2009, June 19, 2010, June 19, 2013, June 19, 2018, June 19, 2021, and June 19, 2023. | ||||||||||||
| Current status: Delisted good article | |||||||||||||
 | This  level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Age at death / limitations of sidebar
The right-hand information block suggested that, having died the same day, they died at the same age in spite of having different birth years. Reviewing the code, it appears this was an auto-calculated field which does not allow the flexibility of reporting two death ages at a unique time for non-unique birthdates. To clarify for other readers, I changed the code from
| date_of_death = June 19, 1953(1953-06-19) (aged 35) (both)
to
| date_of_death = June 19, 1953(1953-06-19) (aged 35) (Julius), and aged 37 (Ethel)
which I believe removes the ambiguity. There is still some minor formatting inconsistency as the sidebar places the initial age in parenthesis, but this was the best I could do with the automated process. At least now they are not reported dead at the same age.
Change "Later developments" section to use chronological order
I think it will benefit our readers if we untangle this section. New sources of information emerged at specific dates, which we can use:
- 1995 publication of Venona decryptions (material that was available to the FBI but not made public during the trial)
- 2001 David Greenglass later statements
- 2008 release of grand jury testimony
- 2008 Morton Sobell later statements
- 2009 Vassiliev notebooks published online
The Rosenberg children and their campaign for the exoneration of Ethel Rosenberg belong in a different section. I am going to try to sort this out. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- 1995 Venona descriptions:
"...For example, a 1944 cable (which gives the name of Ruth Greenglass in clear text) says that Ruth's brother David is being recruited as a spy by his sister (that is, Ethel Rosenberg) and her husband..." But Mr. David Greenglass wasn’t the brother of Mrs. Ruth Greenglass. He was her spouse! This phrase must be written so:
For example, a 1944 cable (which gives the name of Ruth Greenglass in clear text) says that Ruth's spouse David is being recruited as a spy by his sister (that is, Ethel Rosenberg) and her husband. --Анатолий Глезер (talk) 07:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Clarification about Ethel
The previous version of this article claimed at the start that both Julius and Ethel spied for the Soviets and provided info to them. But all of the article’s sources that I looked at said that Ethel was involved in recruiting but not in providing info to the Soviets. So that opening paragraph seemed to me to be factually incorrect (according to the article’s sources), so I changed it. My change may not have been the best way to address this issue, I don’t know; but if someone ends up reverting my change, then please make other changes to make the article match what it says in the sources. (Or else provide a source for the specific claim that Ethel passed info to the Soviets.) — Elysdir (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
Ethel's Innocence
This article would benefit from including information on the prosecution’s knowledge of intercepted Soviet communications related to the Rosenberg case. These communications detailed espionage activities using codenames for various spies, yet notably referred to “Ethel” directly in the description of the role codenamed “Antenna,” believed to refer to Ethel’s husband, Julius. It is significant that the prosecution was aware of this fact, and there is evidence suggesting that Ethel’s execution was intended, in part, to conceal the extent to which the United States had successfully intercepted and decoded Soviet messages. ChloeMS (talk) 17:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- It's speculative.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Not a spy
https://www.justsecurity.org/105873/ethel-rosenberg-wrongful-execution/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8802:5913:1700:7597:DD0E:35B5:1044 (talk) 04:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Categories:- Misplaced Pages controversial topics
- Delisted good articles
- B-Class level-5 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-5 vital articles in People
- B-Class vital articles in People
- B-Class biography articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- B-Class Espionage articles
- Mid-importance Espionage articles
- B-Class New York City articles
- Low-importance New York City articles
- WikiProject New York City articles
- B-Class United States History articles
- Mid-importance United States History articles
- WikiProject United States History articles
- B-Class Crime-related articles
- Top-importance Crime-related articles
- WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles
- B-Class Jewish history-related articles
- Low-importance Jewish history-related articles
- WikiProject Jewish history articles