Talk:Book of Joshua: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous edit Next edit →Content deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 14:07, 23 December 2024 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk \| contribs)Bots, Template editors2,298,157 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Book of Joshua/Archive 2) (bot← Previous edit		Revision as of 00:24, 24 December 2024 edit undoTerrainman (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,131 edits →Recent edit: new sectionTag: New topic Next edit →
Line 108:		Line 108:
	:*Footnote 5 from Lemos (OUP) gives a brief list of scholars who endorse it.		:*Footnote 5 from Lemos (OUP) gives a brief list of scholars who endorse it.
	:*Even if ] would not be applicable, I have personally ] many scholars who either endorse it, or at least recognize it is a highly troubling matter, for themselves and for other scholars. E.g. in the middle of one paper, the author argues that genocide scholars frequently endorse it, while at the end of the paper that author seeks to refute their point. I don't think that the latter refutation invalidates the point that genocide scholars frequently endorse it. ] (]) 08:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC)		:*Even if ] would not be applicable, I have personally ] many scholars who either endorse it, or at least recognize it is a highly troubling matter, for themselves and for other scholars. E.g. in the middle of one paper, the author argues that genocide scholars frequently endorse it, while at the end of the paper that author seeks to refute their point. I don't think that the latter refutation invalidates the point that genocide scholars frequently endorse it. ] (]) 08:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Recent edit ==

			@tgeorgescu Regarding ], I believe this may have been a good edit. The citation lists many sources which talk about genocide, but do not link Joshua to it (so essentially it is uncited and is original research). It also does not belong in the lead of all segments. ] (]) 00:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 00:24, 24 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Book of Joshua article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 3 months

This

level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Religious texts (defunct)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religious texts, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Religious textsWikipedia:WikiProject Religious textsTemplate:WikiProject Religious textsReligious texts

Religion Mid‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Bible Top‑importance

	Bible portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Judaism High‑importance

	Judaism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Christianity Top‑importance

	Christianity portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Israel Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Misplaced Pages.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Misplaced Pages requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.

Military history: Middle East C‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Middle Eastern military history task force

Ancient Near East Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Near East, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of ancient Near East–related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient Near EastWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near EastTemplate:WikiProject Ancient Near EastAncient Near East
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Phoenicia Low‑importance

	Phoenicia portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Phoenicia, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Phoenicia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.PhoeniciaWikipedia:WikiProject PhoeniciaTemplate:WikiProject PhoeniciaPhoenicia
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Books

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook

The contents of the Early Israelite campaigns page were merged into Book of Joshua. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wendy072310.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:06, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Genocide of the Canaanites

I categorized the Book of Joshua in Category:History books about genocide. The categorization was reverted with the following comment:

'Anachronistic, absurd extrapolation. By that standard, all ancient books are about "genocide".' Duponieux

A passage from the Book for example:

"They totally destroyed them, not sparing anyone that breathed... For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy..." (Joshua 11:11, 20).

"By that standard, all ancient books are about genocide"? You mean Analects, Antigona, Kama Sutra...?

Does not the chapter "Moral and political interpretation" in the article list reliable scholars who found in the Book genocide and ethnic cleansing? Can you edit your "anachronistic, absurd extrapolation" in the chapter itself?

Israel those days was chiefdom of 12 tribes. Genocide was norm of the chiefdom-level warfare worldwide.

Did you decisively demonstrate that all this anthropological research is "absurd extrapolation"? Can you refer to your research in the field and positive reviews?

Or the concensus cancels all pre-modern genocides as "anachronistic"?--Maxaxa (talk) 07:19, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

A review of Daniel Hawk's book The Violence of the Biblical God says:

"But is the book of Joshua about genocide? In light of the many internal contradictions within the text and the highly stylized ways killing is described, Hawk concludes that rhetoric about mass killing “contains more style than substance.” Like other recent scholars, he appeals to Deuteronomy 7. If God really wants the Israelites to “wipe out” the inhabitants of the land completely (7:1–2), then why does God immediately follow up with a commandment not to intermarry with them (7:3)? The Israelites presumably will not marry nations they have already slaughtered. The command to kill the nations of the land, then, “does not appear to be concerned with eliminating them so much as keeping Israel at a distance from them.”

The hyperbolic rhetoric of Deuteronomy and Joshua ultimately underscore Israel’s commitment to radical separation from the land’s native inhabitants. The rhetoric is about mass killing, but the actual commitment is to something different—unadulterated commitment to God. The fact that indigenous people who embrace the God of Israel are incorporated into the community without a protest from God would also seem to show that the rhetorical flourishes of the book of Joshua are not meant to be taken literally. The text does present a story of comprehensive military triumph, but it also pokes abundant holes in that very story."

It's clear they weren't totally destroyed. Doug Weller talk 08:14, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The error in the review (and maybe in what it is reviewing; I didn't check) is that "wipe out completely" in ancient times generally didn't include killing women who were considered more suitable for capture. Those women became part of the conquering tribe and so the vanquished tribe thereby became extinct. A command to not intermarry could even be a euphemistic way of saying that the women should be killed too; it certainly does not negate the genocidal aspect. Zero 12:27, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Robert Carneiro, "Chiefdom-level warfare," The Anthropology of War, Camridge University Press, 1990

Removing the odd sentence-paragraph at the end of the introduction

The sole source for, "Many scholars interpret the book of Joshua as referring to what would now be considered genocide," is a chapter in the book "Ritual Violence in the Hebrew Bible: New Perspectives." The chapter was written by a Dr. Tracy Lemos; I think it would be easy to make a case for Dr. Lemos's work to be highly ideological, but this is at present immaterial. What is material is the fact that even in the book in which the chapter appears, it is the only one making claims of genocide. (It is possible that Dr. Lemos provides an extensive list of other scholars who concur, but the book is expensive and no digital copy seems available.)

This is not the first time that someone has tried to shoehorn the anachronism* of genocide into the Book of Joshua (see above, for example). I am reverting this. If someone can find another source or two for this idea that "many scholars interpret the ook of Joshua to what would now be considered genocide," have at it. It would be nice if they were coming from experts who do not obviously have an axe to grind, as well.

(*Yes, I am aware of the "what would now be considered" disclaimer given. I think it's clear why it was written this way.) Psithurismos (talk) 03:18, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It's from Oxford University Press. That is, barring some extraordinary evidence which became later apparent, a highly reliable source. The opinion of one editor does not trump OUP.

And by "evidence" I mean evidence, not gibberish.

And now Cambridge University Press is WP:CITED to the same effect. That is a hard to match sourcing.

We don't take polls of how many scholars endorse this view. See the condition stipulated at WP:RS/AC. If OUP says that "many scholars" endorse it, and CUP also says that "many scholars" endorse it, then Misplaced Pages writes "many scholars". As simple as that—and not open for negotiation.

Briefly: the issue is both well-known and clear-cut. No way to dodge it. We're grownups, not little children.

Results:

~~I don't have access to Lemos (OUP) right now, so I don't know what it says; if I remember well I accessed it via Google Books some years ago, but it is no longer there;~~ later edit: found it, offered a quote for WP:V purposes;
Lemos (CUP) kind of says it, but not explicitly;
Fortunately, Olyan (OUP) does say that the Book of Joshua fits any narrow definition of genocide. Upon whether he actually says explicitly that many scholars endorse it, I'm not sure;
Footnote 5 from Lemos (OUP) gives a brief list of scholars who endorse it.
Even if WP:RS/AC would not be applicable, I have personally WP:CITED many scholars who either endorse it, or at least recognize it is a highly troubling matter, for themselves and for other scholars. E.g. in the middle of one paper, the author argues that genocide scholars frequently endorse it, while at the end of the paper that author seeks to refute their point. I don't think that the latter refutation invalidates the point that genocide scholars frequently endorse it. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Recent edit

@tgeorgescu Regarding this, I believe this may have been a good edit. The citation lists many sources which talk about genocide, but do not link Joshua to it (so essentially it is uncited and is original research). It also does not belong in the lead of all segments. 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 00:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Categories: