| Revision as of 00:24, 6 December 2024 editWhatamIdoing (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers121,698 edits →Redacted comments: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit | Revision as of 23:45, 24 December 2024 edit undoAbishe (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers36,849 edits →Happy Holidays: new sectionTag: New topicNext edit → | ||
| (30 intermediate revisions by 10 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{User:MiszaBot/config | {{User:MiszaBot/config | ||
| |maxarchivesize = 30K | |maxarchivesize = 30K | ||
| |counter = |
|counter = 97 | ||
| |minthreadsleft = 1 | |minthreadsleft = 1 | ||
| |algo = old(48h) | |algo = old(48h) | ||
| Line 19: | Line 19: | ||
| }} | }} | ||
| == |
== ] updates == | ||
| You |
You are receiving this message because you are on ] for ]. The drafters note that the scope of the case was somewhat unclear, and clarify that the scope is {{tqq|The interaction of named parties in the ] topic area and examination of the ] process that led to ] ] to ]}}. Because this was unclear, two changes are being made: | ||
| ⚫ | <!-- Message sent by User: |
||
| First, '''the Committee will accept submissions for new parties for the next three days''', until '''23:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC)'''. Anyone who wishes to suggest a party to the case may do so by creating a new section on ], providing a reason with ] as to why the user should be added, and notifying the user. After the three-day period ends, no further submission of parties will be considered except in exceptional circumstances. Because the Committee only hears disputes that have failed to be resolved by the usual means, proposed parties should have been recently taken to AE/AN/ANI, and either not sanctioned, or incompletely sanctioned. If a proposed party has not been taken to AE/AN/ANI, evidence is needed as to why such an attempt would have been ineffective. | |||
| == RangerRus == | |||
| Can you please take a look at what I added to the ANI thread.--v/r - ]] 16:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * Good points, and I agree. ] 22:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Second, the ] '''has been extended by a week''', and will now close at '''23:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)'''. For the Arbitration Committee, <b>]]</b> (] • he/they) 03:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Redacted comments == | |||
| ⚫ | <!-- Message sent by User:HouseBlaster@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Update_list&oldid=1260342644 --> | ||
| ==Happy Birthday!== | |||
| I don't think that is the kind of thing that ] is meant to cover. When someone identifies a pattern of (in their eyes) racist behavior by a group of editors, we probably shouldn't call that a "personal attack". | |||
| <!-- ##RW UNDERDATE## --> | |||
| <div style="background-color:#E6E6FA; border: 1px solid #7D00B3; margin: 0.5em auto; padding: 0.5em; width:90%; text-align: center">]<span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:125%;">Happy First Edit Day!</span>] | |||
| Have a very happy first edit anniversary! | |||
| From the ], ] (]) 00:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| If you come from a place where "Anglo" means "non-Latino white American", then I can imagine that being quite jarring, but I don't think that was what was meant in this case. I think the non-native speaker meant that some native English speakers are making comments that denigrate non-native English speakers, and a little re-wording might be helpful. I wonder if you might consider self-reverting. ] (]) 23:48, 4 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| </div> | |||
| * {{u|WhatamIdoing}} Sorry, no - calling people racists is a personal attack, if you're doing it purely because you disagree with them; if there was genuine racism there then it would be a different situation; there isn't. ] 11:25, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:But {{blue|English is a universal language my friends, and not the property of colonial imperialists}} is a statement of opinion, not directed at anyone. Except colonial imperialists I suppose, but they can look after themselves. ]'']'' 12:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Happy Holidays == | |||
| *:Does your definition of "genuine racism" include practices that have an obvious ]? Mine does. I suspect that editor's does, too. | |||
| *:Does your definition of "genuine racism" include subtle racism? {{doi|10.1177/0011000015625329}} defines it this way: "Identifying contemporary racism has been problematic as this type of racism, namely subtle racism, is difficult to discern, and the actions in question can be easily justified by other causes". https://www.recurse.com/social-rules talks about "subtle -isms". They one of the practical consequences of subtle racism: "The “subtle” in “subtle -isms” means that it’s probably not obvious to everyone right away what was wrong with the comment." Some people, having experienced more of these "indirect and ] acts of ]", are quicker to notice racialized patterns of social exclusion. I think the editor was calling out subtle racism based on a common race+linguistic pair. | |||
| {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 4px solid #FFD700;" | |||
| *:You might also be interested in what ] has to say, e.g., "Covert linguistic racism, on the other hand, is expressed through indirect and ] acts of ].<ref name="TankosićDovchin2021">{{cite journal |last1=Tankosić |first1=Ana |last2=Dovchin |first2=Sender |date=7 April 2021 |title=(C)overt linguistic racism: Eastern-European background immigrant women in the Australian workplace |journal=Ethnicities |volume=23 |issue=5 |page=1–32 |doi=10.1177/14687968211005104 |issn=1468-7968 |eissn=1741-2706 |s2cid=233600585 |hdl-access=free |hdl=20.500.11937/91494}}</ref> In the U.S., covert linguistic racism plays a role in a lack of diverse participation..." | |||
| |rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 2px;" | ] | |||
| *:I don't think it's difficult to understand the POV that the proposed LLM rules amount to an "indirect" act of "social exclusion" that will result in "a lack of diverse participation". These rules will especially affect people from East Asia, "based on an individual or community's linguistic background", to quote the opening line of our article, while "maintaining this social inequality under a veneer of indirectness and deniability", to quote the end of the first paragraph. The fact is that English is easier to learn if you come from a group whose common native language was Dutch or German than if your group's native language was Chinese or Japanese. Language is part of most people's racial identity. (Consider, e.g., ].) | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 2px 2px 0 2px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2025!''' | |||
| *:I personally see no ''overt'' racism in the discussion. But I also think the sentiment is not completely unreasonable, and I'm not comfortable saying that there is no "genuine racism" involved. "Contemporary" styles of ] are genuine racism, too. ] (]) 16:47, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| |- | |||
| ::* Pointing out that some editors have used LLMs to create long talkpage posts because their own English skills are not good enough to do so is not racist, it's simply pointing out a fact which we have empirical evidence for. If people were suggesting that is a good reason to ban LLMs, or if they were saying that ''all'' LLM-generated posts were like that, then that would be different; but they're not. ] 19:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | | |||
| ::*:Like I said, subtle racism isn't necessarily obvious at a first glance. Think about it. Maybe try to imagine a world in which the other editor isn't wrong. ] (]) 19:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| ::::* I'm not sure where you're coming from here. The original discussion ''originated'' because we were having a large amount of LLM-generated posts on various noticeboards, and when the other edits of those editors was examined it was clear that their language skills were often not particularly great. That's not racism, or even subtle racism - it's simply pointing out a fact (and it was quite understood ''why'' those editors did this as well). On that basis "you Anglos you're all racist" (paraphrased obviously, but the meaning was clear) is simply nonsense. I have spent an ''enormous'' amount of time in my 17 years as an admin kicking racists, homophobes, misogynists and similar off this platform, I have a zero tolerance for it. But that also means that I have to point out the rare occasion when it works the other way. Shouting racism when it isn't there demeans those who point it out when it ''is'' there. ] 21:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| '''Hello Black Kite, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this ]. Spread the ] by wishing another user a ] and a ], whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2025. <br />Happy editing,'''<br /> | |||
| ::::*:So let's start with the assumption that the editor's personal English skills are lower than yours and mine. We might therefore decide that it's appropriate to give him some grace about the way that he phrased it. | |||
| ] (]) 23:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*:One possible reading of this assumed-to-be-imprecisely-worded phrase is "Everyone in this discussion is morally bad". That seems to be your interpretation. | |||
| ::::*:But I wonder whether the person meant to communication something like this: "I'm seeing ideas and behaviors (NB: not people) in this discussion that have unacknowledged racial content. For example, editors in this discussion note that LLMs are used by non-native English speakers, but then they vote to exclude those of us struggling with English (people who, worldwide, are mostly non-white) from discussions by banning the tools we need to participate! These exclusionary comments are coming from people with native-level English skills (people who, worldwide, are mostly white)." | |||
| ''{{resize|96%|Spread the love by adding {{tls|Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.}}'' | |||
| ::::*:Can you imagine the possibility that this is what someone might be thinking, and just not have the skills to communicate it gently? ] (]) 00:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| |} ] (]) 23:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 23:45, 24 December 2024
 | "And while I'm alive, I'll make tiny changes to earth." Frightened Rabbit |
| Black Kite Hi, I'm an administrator here, and have been since 2007. I'll try to answer any questions here as soon as I can, though I do have periods where I'm not available. For admins: if you think I've done something really f***ing stupid and I don't respond to a question about it, please feel free to reverse it ... we can work it out later on. |
| For Talk Page Archives, click here. |
| If you email me via Misplaced Pages, please leave me a note here (unless there's a good reason you do not want that fact to be public). I do check my Misplaced Pages email fairly regularly, but not that regularly. |
Palestine-Israel articles 5 updates
You are receiving this message because you are on the update list for Palestine-Israel articles 5. The drafters note that the scope of the case was somewhat unclear, and clarify that the scope is The interaction of named parties in the WP:PIA topic area and examination of the WP:AE process that led to two referrals to WP:ARCA
. Because this was unclear, two changes are being made:
First, the Committee will accept submissions for new parties for the next three days, until 23:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC). Anyone who wishes to suggest a party to the case may do so by creating a new section on the evidence talk page, providing a reason with WP:DIFFS as to why the user should be added, and notifying the user. After the three-day period ends, no further submission of parties will be considered except in exceptional circumstances. Because the Committee only hears disputes that have failed to be resolved by the usual means, proposed parties should have been recently taken to AE/AN/ANI, and either not sanctioned, or incompletely sanctioned. If a proposed party has not been taken to AE/AN/ANI, evidence is needed as to why such an attempt would have been ineffective.
Second, the evidence phase has been extended by a week, and will now close at 23:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC). For the Arbitration Committee, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Happy Birthday!
Have a very happy first edit anniversary!
From the Birthday Committee, DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 00:31, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Happy Holidays
|
Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2025! |
|
Hello Black Kite, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2025. Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages. |