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{{re|Drmies}} please explain what you are referring to. If I am not mistaken, aren't you referring to something where you are the main editor who has repeated the same unorthodox and now disputed edit several times? I don't see any justification for this threatening and confrontational threat. You only explanations so far for your drastic deletions has been explained in short edsums. If you have a better explanation give it properly.--] (]) 20:44, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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*You have twice reverted my removal of talk page content started by the sock of a block, racist editor; as an administrator, I think that ] applies perfectly well here. Now, if ''you'' have a better explanation than "there is no emergency here", thereby giving legitimacy to a blocked user who thinks that , well. If you want to start a discussion about the wording in the article, feel free to start a thread on that. ] (]) 21:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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::{{re|Drmies}} I have done that. But admins do not have special power to ''threaten'' good faith editors in order to get what they want into Misplaced Pages. You should not be brandishing your admin status at all! Admins are not managers or super-editors. Your edit was disputed, and the only (undeleted) discussion was in edsums. My two reversions are based on the idea that you had done your edits in a rush, and that is still my hope. Your deletions of my edits, and the edits of other good faith editors, are clearly NOT justified by DENY (which you cited), unless it is stretched to the point that it becomes meaningless. Extremism and oversimplification of WP certainly won't lead to a better encyclopedia. There is a very clear tradition on WP that the deleting of whole threads of discussion involving long term good faith editors is a very big call. There is another tradition that when a good faith editor gives a reasonable objection, you don't just make threats and start acting aggressively. You need to take those community positions at least as seriously as the aim of reducing the impact of trolls? Admins should support editors, and not start fights.--] (]) 21:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Eh, everything you say about me, I can say about you: you reverted without a good argument, and you thereby gave a platform to someone who's blocked indefinitely for all the right reasons--but you actually haven't said a word about that. And what do you even mean with "your edits"? You hadn't contributed to that conversation. ] (]) 21:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Your thread has been archived == | |||
::::{{re|Drmies}} there is clearly a difference. I am a long term editor of that article, and that talk page. I also made no threats to abuse the system and try to make trouble for you for disagreeing with me. I also did not delete the edits of good faith editors. (Deleting is a much bigger call than restoring?) Those are big differences between us. The article you have barged into is clearly a complex and difficult subject which has needed a lot of careful consideration of wildly different opinions which are often associated with controversies. We can't just ignore every aspect of those controversies. I would never dream of coming into such a situation making major deletions and threats. | |||
::::Our main mission here is to solve those types of editing and balance problems. Troll chasing obsessions ''should'' only be a supporting task? The concept of "'''contamination'''" which was used to delete the posts of good faith editors does not belong on WP, and I know of no guideline which mentions it. (I hardly ever hear mention of DENY. I don't see it as something with anywhere near the support and consensus which some of the principles you've broken have.) POV pushers do sometimes need special actions, but they have also traditionally sometimes pushed WP editors to see where there might be problems in articles like this. Just calling all such POV pushing editors trolls and deleting everything they "contaminate", including the posts of other editors, is not a good idea IMHO. Threatening people who object to this approach is even worse.--] (]) 07:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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:::::It is understandable that some contributors to the 💕 have strong feelings about liberty. However, those who have to deal with the inevitable long-term abusers have strong feelings as well. Your comment at ] (]) was unnecessarily provocative and off-topic for an article talk page. You may not care if an IP was associated with trolling but it is not helpful to use an article talk page to say so. You are free to raise any points that you believe need consideration but you should focus on article content and sources. Do not encourage POV pushers by mentioning them. ] (]) 09:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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::::::{{re|Johnuniq}} I accept that others can have strong feelings, and I do care about trolls. Caring about trolls is not the same as disagreeing about how to handle specific cases. Accepting that people can have strong feelings is not the same as accepting that threats and admin credentials should be bandied about whenever someone disagrees with an edit. The "provocation" you refer to is in fact that I objected to receiving a generic threat for disruptive editing because I tried to preserve a question which needs more discussion. My 2 editsums explain this to Drmies, who I clearly thought might not have understood. That is not very "provocative"! It should be possible to have reasonable differences of opinion on matters like this without dramatization and escalation. --] (]) 14:05, 8 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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:::::::At least half of your comment (see diff above) talks about an IP and how you don't care about trolling and you are wondering if the IP was correct. That is the provocation because it encourages long-term abusers. If you think there is an issue regarding article content, talk about the issue—text that is in the article, or which should be in the article. ] (]) 01:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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::::::::{{re|Johnuniq}} thanks for looking at it further, but I'm afraid that is not correct. First of all the threat above was posted ''before'' my "provocation" (as you call it), and so you are reversing cause and effect by using the term "provocation". It was a reaction. The provocation is above. Secondly, and connected to that, either you are deliberately twisting my words, or you need to read that post more carefully. {{tq|"I honestly don't care if the point was raised by an IP associated with trolling."}} In other words, once again my post is about something and has to be read in context. It says that I think threads involving good faith editors should not be automatically deleted because of '''association ("contamination")''' with someone who has been declared a troll. Trolls can in fact make valid points. Obviously we can't have admins going around deleting arguments because trolls might agree with them? I hope you agree, but even if not my opinion is obviously quite different from saying that I don't care about trolls! Hopefully we can agree on that at least. | |||
Hello '''Andrew Lancaster'''! The thread you created at the ], {{tq|Request for third party feedback}}, has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days. | |||
::::::::Perhaps you will also note that there is also an implication in my post that I question how this POV pushing IP was designated as a troll and described as racist. Honestly, I am still wondering about that. Is that "provocative"? The Elhaik article which the IP editor wants to give more emphasis to is controversial, and has been a source of awkward discussions for years. However, I don't think it should be called "racist", as {{ping|Drmies}} seemed to in the initial edit . Many of Elhaik's specific conclusions are out of date, and were controversial from the start, but that's clearly not the specific point the IP was pushing. Looking for triggers among the IP's priorities, it is not racist to question the idea of there being a single biological Jewish race. I don't think Elhaik, who is an Israeli, is controversial for believing that. The IP's constant references to the influence of "Zionism" are certainly over the top, and tone-deaf, but I also don't think this term is automatically racist. This is clearly the type of article where it can sometimes be referred to in its proper sense. Academics rightfully question whether any ideologies have influenced studies, and such concerns are certainly important in articles about "race". Drmies might have seen something else, but I could not see it at first sight. All or most of the edits of this IP are just pushing the same basic ideas AFAIK. As far as I can see concerning the small edit war on the article, which Drmies entered into with 2 reversions, it was not really a very controversial edit. Perhaps Drmies does not realize that. It involves adding a short summary into the lead, about some information which is in the article already. However, as far as I can see, the decision to designate this POV-pushing IP as a "troll" might even hang mainly upon that little edit war? In any case Drmies gave no specific evidence to justify the strong terms "racist" and "troll". To me, POV pushing is different from trolling, and the different meanings of words in cases like this are worth being cautious about, even if we have "strong feelings" about trolls and racism. Note that I am not sure about the background thinking of Drmies, but I do feel uncomfortable with serious words like this being used in ways in order to quickly get the edits we want. If we are serious about the word "troll" then we won't use it to get the edits we want.--] (]) 07:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I don't know what "is not correct" refers to. I was explaining my earlier "was unnecessarily provocative and off-topic"—I was not referring to any provocation you may have experienced. Debates concerning philosophies of running a website are not productive and agreement is unlikely. The take-home message is that there are now two admins warning you that encouraging long-term abusers will result in a block. ] (]) 09:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
You can still ]. If you have follow-up questions, please {{Edit |1=Misplaced Pages:Teahouse |2=create a new thread |section=new |preload=Misplaced Pages:Teahouse/Preload |preloadtitle=Follow-up to ]}}. | |||
::::::::::{{re|Johnuniq}} by now you clearly know very well that you ''misleadingly'' described me as saying that I do not care about trolls. Instead of changing the topic or threatening me, an apology would be fine. My post was also certainly not off topic, so you could apologize for that misleading remark too if like. Up to you. Concerning the question of whether I "encouraged" "racists" or "trolls", I think this is obviously ''deliberately'' overdramatic. If an editor I do not know deletes a whole thread and claims "racism" without citing any evidence then similar situations can occur? As I noted from the beginning I looked around quickly to for any signs of an "emergency" and did not see any. The editor involved could have chosen to give the evidence after that. At this stage I still have not received any. Instead I received a threat. I would still like to know whether this decision about the IP the result of a community decision, or just a quick decision by one editor?--] (]) 11:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Please do not hold your breath for an apology. If you cannot see how your actions can embolden a longterm troll, then you have a lot to learn. That you didn't see an "emergency", whatever that is supposed to mean, is not a yardstick for my administrative actions. ] (]) 13:20, 9 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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::::::::::::{{re|Drmies}} I am not a new editor, and I can survive without the apologies, but your attitude towards accountability and collegiality needs work ''IMHO''. This is not because of my ideals, but because of what works. Please be more careful about little things like accusations and threats when intervening into situations like this. Rapid escalations and obviously overdramatic attacks on good faith editors, can in fact embolden bad editors, and create more angst (and new trolls) out there in the internet. I agree that there is no point talking about this in circles. However, we should all be able to live with reasonable levels of disagreement, and I hope you can agree with that principle. | |||
See also the ] | |||
::::::::::::FWIW, I've now gone to look at the old SteveBenassi account, which you apparently see as the same editor. There is a familiar pattern and there are many people out there who struggle with these topics about DNA, races, ethnic groups etc., and they will keep coming because of all the nonsense on the internet. We obviously don't need such people as editors but some of the issues they raise can help us to consider points in the article where we need to explain carefully. Carefully written articles on WP can help reduce disruption, because they reduce misunderstandings, and potential disruptive editors can see their questions are handled. You are also right that people concerned and confused about these issues also look at talk pages looking for signs of censorship and so on. I personally try to avoid words like racist and troll except in very clear cases, because both of them require knowledge of what people are thinking. This is just good practice at all times IMHO. You can ignore all of this advice but I offer it in good faith and hope it can help you - at least in understanding my own thoughts on this.--] (]) 19:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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:::::::::::::Yes, that is the same editor. I am going to refrain from giving ''you'' advice, and I have no intention of coming back here, so there is no need to ping me. One last thing: you seem to think that "racist trolling" is a function of intent; it is not. ] (]) 03:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::> "{{tq|misleadingly described me as saying that I do not care about trolls}}"{{pb}}I said nothing misleading. I gave ] in which you said "{{tq|I honestly don't care if the point was raised by an IP associated with trolling.}}". In my 09:23, 8 May 2024 comment above, I summarized that as "{{tq|You may not care if an IP was associated with trolling but it is not helpful to use an article talk page to say so.}}" ] (]) 08:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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::::::::::::{{re|Johnuniq}}. FWIW compare: I do not care if '''this point''' was raised by X (my sentence); I do not care if '''the person''' who raised this point was X (your rewriting). Can you see that these are two different statements? One is about the point. The other is about the person. So I ''do'' care if the IP was a troll, and I never said otherwise. My "provocative" proposal is that we ''have to be'' allowed to say that "1+1=2" both before and after a troll says it. Our central mission demands this absolutely. Apparently you disagree (or perhaps don't care), and that's why I fear mission creep which is apparently in conflict with WP's main mission. Secondly, you ''also'' wrote this: {{tq|At least half of your comment (see diff above) talks about an IP and how '''you don't care about trolling'''}}. I presume that you forgot that wrote that? In any case, by now you seem to have accepted that it is not true? --] (]) 13:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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:::::::::::::So you care if the IP was a troll and you still thought it a good use of an article talk page to write a comment featuring them. Admins do not need to persuade someone to agree with being blocked and my warning stands. It is simply not helpful to take actions that do the opposite of ]. If you think there is an issue regarding article content, talk about the issue—content which is, or which should be, in the article. Do not talk about contributors, and particularly do not talk about them when there is reason to believe they are a long-term abuser. ] (]) 01:17, 11 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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::::::::::::::{{re|Johnuniq}} you came back to my talk page to argue unconvincingly that you have not been twisting my words. Please do not ''keep'' trying to twist things. Yes, we are both concerned about trolls. We disagree on other points, and you said you don't want to discuss "philosophies of running a website" (your words). FWIW though, better WP articles really are still our main aim AFAIK, and luckily, the better they are the less they tend to attract trolls. To make better WP articles we often need to talk about past controversies on the articles. DENY is OTOH an ''essay''. It is being interpreted in an extreme way by you, as shown by the fact that you keep resorting to saying you are an admin. And what is the "''opposite''" of DENY? Your aggressive dismissal of the need for accountability and transparency is something I find very worrying. If there are going to be forbidden topics, then there needs to be an ''agreed'' list of them that everyone can easily know about by editors, and if necessary reviewed. Banning absolutely ALL reference to all blocked editors would be a new approach AFAIK, not demanded in DENY, and it would lead to ridiculous and confusing talk page discussion in this type of article where the same topics come back each year, and we want to get better each time at handling them. As editors we sometimes need to discuss repeating controversies, ''as repeating controversies''. There needs to be some common sense and collegiality when it comes to DENY?--] (]) 10:08, 11 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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== Linguistic maps == | |||
Hi Andrew, | |||
I've been working on a new draft of the article ] (]) and I was wondering whether, if I sent you some images of academic maps, you might be able to recreate them to illustrate the geographic spread of some linguistic features? Stuff like the extent of 3rd person pronouns with "h-", monophthongization of ai and au, etc. are just screaming for maps. | |||
Additionally, {{u|Austronesier}} and I have been working on a far larger draft on the Continental Germanic dialect continuum (see ]) and I'm sure he would also have some requests if you'd be willing to help out! | |||
Thanks in advance!--] (]) 13:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:{{re|Ermenrich}} the challenge, at least using the software type of method I was trying to use lately, is getting a dataset for the areas involved. I think sometimes the academic teams involved are willing to supply their own data. Otherwise it comes down to artistic image manipulation, which I don't think I'm especially good at. I think there are places on WP where requests can be offered though? ] (]) 14:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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== Neo-Romans == | |||
Excuse me, I didn't want to vandalised any article, if you thought that, my apologies. The point of my editions was: | |||
If visigoths, burgundians, ostrogoths, franks, etc. were germanic peoples in their origins because their lingüistic group. Once they became part of the Empire and were romanized, they should be renamed as latin (if we're focus in the language) or roman peoples (if we're focus in their culture as a whole). | |||
If you read about the "Medieval Latins", you can see franks (alongside normans and venetians) being mentionated, despite their germanic origin, same can be say of the burgundians, goths, etc. Those peoples hadn't the same language nor culture in the III century that in the V-VIs. | |||
Also take in mind that many of those peoples weren't unified peoples perse, but confederations of many different tribes that absorbed other that perhaps weren't even germanic-speaking, plus all the roman deserters and refugees (latin-speaking, roman-cultured). | |||
Thanks for taking time to read it. ] (]) 20:59, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I realized that this would be the type of thing you were thinking, but adding this type of point is not something we do by first adding information into the lead or infobox. First you'll need to get some consensus about how this can be explained and sourced in the body. A point like this will definitely need some homework to get right.--] (]) 21:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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Thanks {{u|Johnbod}}, and the same to you.--] (]) 19:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
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Latest revision as of 07:53, 25 December 2024
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Welcome!
Hello, Andrew Lancaster, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}}
on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --{{IncMan|talk}} 08:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Please explain to me why you think r1a is a domainant haplogroup in Southcentral Asia.
You said that I was trying to dismiss r1a in Southcentral Asia by calling it a pocket. If you look at the map that is clearly what it is. There is a corridor from Russia to Southcentral Asia that ends in a "pocket" or "bubble" or round shaped geographical area, of which the center, where r1a actually reaches more than 50% is an extremely small area compared to the European R1a.
R1a is not a Dominant Haplogroup in Southcentral Asia. There are Tribal groups that have high percentages of R1a because they do not mix with other groups in the area. There are no countries in Southcentral Asia in which R1a reaches a much higher level than 20% except Kyrgyzstan. This article is written in such a way that would imply that R1a is a dominant Haplogroup in Southcentral Asia, when in reality, R1a only accounts for a small fraction of Southcentral Asian men.Jamesdean3295
Maternal origins of European Hunter Gatherers
This may be of some value in these articles....Genetic Discontinuity Between Local Hunter-Gatherers and Central Europe’s First Farmers (Found in Science Express)
Nonetheless, it is intriguing to note that 82% of our 22 hunter-gatherer individuals carried clade U . ...... Europeans today have moderate frequencies of U5 types, ranging from about 1-5% along the Mediterranean coastline to 5-7% in most core European areas, and rising to 10-20% in northeastern European Uralic-speakers. . .
Kant, nous, intellect
Hi Andrew, I'm not a Kant expert, in spite of my limited knowledge of his thoughts on reason. And I don't really have time to get into an in-depth discussion of intellect vs. mind vs. nous vs. reason. However, as I understand it, for the Greeks, nous was the highest possible metaphysical ideal or form, because it was pure form, and true knowledge for the Greeks was the knowledge that revealed the form that was represented in things. John Dewey wrote a great dictionary entry about nous in 1901:
Nous : Ger. Nus (K.G.); Fr. intelligence; Ital. nous. Reason, thought, considered not as subjective, nor as a mere psychic entity, but as having an objective, especially a teleological, significance.
We owe the term, as a technical one, to Anaxagoras. He felt the need of a special principle to account for the order of the universe and so, besides the infinity of simple qualities, assumed a distinct principle, which, however, was still regarded as material, being only lighter and finer than the others. To it, however, greater activity was ascribed, and it acted according to ends, not merely according to mechanical impact, thus giving movement, unity, and system to what had previously been a disordered jumble of inert elements. Plato generalized the nous of Anaxagoras, proclaiming the necessity of a rational (teleological) explanation of all natural processes, and making nous also a thoroughly immaterial principle. As the principle which lays down ends, nous is also the Supreme Good, the source of all other ends and aims; as such it is the supreme principle of all the ideas. It thus gets an ethical and logical connotation as well as a cosmological.
On the other hand, nous gets a psychological significance as the highest form of mental insight, the immediate and absolutely assured knowledge of rational things. (Knowledge and the object of knowledge are thus essentially one.) … In man, however, the νοῦς assumes a dual form: the active (νοῦς ποιητικός), which is free and the source of all man's insight and virtue that links him to the divine (θεωρειν), and the passive (νοῦς παθητικός), which includes thoughts that are dependent upon perception, memory -- experience as mediated through any bodily organ. The distinction (of Kant, but particularly as used by Coleridge) of REASON from UNDERSTANDING (q.v.) may, however, be compared with it, but the modern distinction of the subjective from the objective inevitably gives reason a much more psychological sense than nous possessed with the ancients.
The distinction between knowledge, or understanding, and reason in Kant therefore mirrors the distinctions between is and ought, or nature and freedom. Nikolas Kompridis similarly connects the knowledge/reason distinction to the discovery in Kant of practical reason's connection to possibility vs. experience:
The great innovation of Kant’s critical philosophy was to reconceive reason as spontaneously self-determining, or self-legislating, such that reason
frames for itself with perfect spontaneity an order of its own according to ideas to which it adapts the empirical conditions and according to which it declares actions to be necessary even though they have not taken place and, maybe, never will take place.
As distinct from the rule-governed activity of the understanding (whose rule-governed spontaneity is internally consistent with its concept), reason is a possibility-disclosing activity, proposing ends (‘‘ideas’’) that go beyond what is already given empirically or normatively. This much Kant already understood, if not fully appreciated, which is why he distinguished the possibility- disclosing activity of reason from the rule-governed acquisition and exercise of knowledge: ‘‘as pure self-activity ’’ reason ‘‘is elevated even above the understanding . . . with respect to ideas, reason shows itself to be such a pure spontaneity and that it far transcends anything which sensibility can provide it.’
(Nikolas Kompridis, "The Idea of a New Beginning: A romantic source of normativity and freedom" in Philosophical Romanticism, p.34, 47)
References
- Immanuel Kant, Critique of Pure Reason, trans. and eds Paul Guyer and Allen Wood (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997) p. 541.
Teleological argument
Misplaced Pages:NOENG#Non-English_sources "Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians".Tstrobaugh (talk)
Aspersions, photos of private mails, etc
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@EdJohnston: you made me think about WP:ASPERSIONS, and I realized this is being cited to me for trying to defend myself from some, which no one seems to have questioned. So just for reference...
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More aspersions
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Linguistic maps
Hi Andrew,
I've been working on a new draft of the article North Sea Germanic (]) and I was wondering whether, if I sent you some images of academic maps, you might be able to recreate them to illustrate the geographic spread of some linguistic features? Stuff like the extent of 3rd person pronouns with "h-", monophthongization of ai and au, etc. are just screaming for maps.
Additionally, Austronesier and I have been working on a far larger draft on the Continental Germanic dialect continuum (see user:Austronesier/sandbox5) and I'm sure he would also have some requests if you'd be willing to help out!
Thanks in advance!--Ermenrich (talk) 13:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ermenrich: the challenge, at least using the software type of method I was trying to use lately, is getting a dataset for the areas involved. I think sometimes the academic teams involved are willing to supply their own data. Otherwise it comes down to artistic image manipulation, which I don't think I'm especially good at. I think there are places on WP where requests can be offered though? Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
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Neo-Romans
Excuse me, I didn't want to vandalised any article, if you thought that, my apologies. The point of my editions was: If visigoths, burgundians, ostrogoths, franks, etc. were germanic peoples in their origins because their lingüistic group. Once they became part of the Empire and were romanized, they should be renamed as latin (if we're focus in the language) or roman peoples (if we're focus in their culture as a whole).
If you read about the "Medieval Latins", you can see franks (alongside normans and venetians) being mentionated, despite their germanic origin, same can be say of the burgundians, goths, etc. Those peoples hadn't the same language nor culture in the III century that in the V-VIs.
Also take in mind that many of those peoples weren't unified peoples perse, but confederations of many different tribes that absorbed other that perhaps weren't even germanic-speaking, plus all the roman deserters and refugees (latin-speaking, roman-cultured).
Thanks for taking time to read it. 83.58.148.140 (talk) 20:59, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- I realized that this would be the type of thing you were thinking, but adding this type of point is not something we do by first adding information into the lead or infobox. First you'll need to get some consensus about how this can be explained and sourced in the body. A point like this will definitely need some homework to get right.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Season's Greetings
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Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The Adoration of the Magi in the Snow (1563) by Pieter Bruegel the Elder is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. Johnbod (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
Thanks Johnbod, and the same to you.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Season's Greetings
Hello there! Ifly6 (talk) wishes you & yours the very best of the season!Whether you celebrate Christmas, Diwali, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa,
Festivus (for the rest of us!) or even the Saturnalia,
here's hoping your holiday time is wonderful and
- especially -
that the New Year will be an improvement on the old.
CHEERS!
Share these holiday wishes by adding
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(Sent: 18:44, 22 December 2024 (UTC)) Ifly6 (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Thanks Ifly6. Have a good holiday season.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
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