Revision as of 22:15, 8 September 2024 editHAL333 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users40,602 edits →Missing source: fixed← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 02:02, 26 December 2024 edit undoChristieBot (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors100,271 editsm Transcluding GA review | ||
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{{GA nominee|18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)|nominator= ~ ]]|page=3|subtopic=Biology and medicine|status=onreview|note=|shortdesc=Progressive neurodegenerative disease}} | |||
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==Wiki Education assignment: Biology I from cells to organisms== | |||
== Citation style == | |||
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/First_Nations_University/Biology_I_from_cells_to_organisms_(fall) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2024-09-05 | end_date = 2024-12-05 }} | |||
This article had four different citation styles (I've corrected two of them), some harking to a time before the short footnote (sfn) template existed. Unless anyone objects, I will convert the book sources to sfns with page numbers. See ] and ]; TS has only books in short footnotes, while DLB uses sfns on all sources so that all page numbers or section headings are identified (the current standard for ]). ] (]) 11:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Sounds good. ~ ]] 18:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
:{{u|SandyGeorgia}}, I think I'm going to use sfns w/ page numbers as I start rewriting sections. That means there will be a transitory period where some journal articles have sfns and others don't, if that's all right. ~ ]] 02:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Understood ... I think that's the way to go ... at ], I found with some articles (depending on the pagination) it was much easier to use the loc= parameter to specify a section heading in some cases, rather than page nos. I intended to chip away at all the sfns on books, but I have had back-to-back tragedies IRL, so not keeping up ... will help as I am able on the converts, but no promises I can keep a close eye or help as much as I normally would. ] (]) 02:26, 9 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Another thing on the rewrite, {{u|HAL333}} ... because there is SO much literature on PD, I think a strict ] to sub-articles will be essential. We have to draw a line of how much detail can be included here, versus at ], ], ], ], ] and ] ... really need to be kept to a very broad overview level here. ] (]) 02:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Will do. ~ ]] 15:26, 9 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::: {{ping|HAL333}}. Thanks for your extensive edits. The following two cites that are throwing Harv errors (doesn't point to any citation): <nowiki>{{sfn|Toloda|2021}}</nowiki>, <nowiki>{{sfn|Blauwendraat|2019}}</nowiki> (should the date be 2020?). This seem to have been introduced by you. Do you have the relevant citations? Thanks. ] (]) 13:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 05:54, 24 September 2024 (UTC)</span> | |||
== Lead image == | |||
Is there any chance we could find an alternative lead image? The text on it is barely legible without expanding it — I don't think readers should have to click on an image to see what it represents. ~ ]] 23:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
==RfC: Should the four lead images be replaced?== | |||
:Not thrilled with what is there. ] (]) 00:29, 7 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
<!-- ] 03:01, 18 January 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1737169273}} | |||
<gallery mode="packed" heights="100"> | |||
File:Histological sample of Substantia nigra in Parkinson's disease.jpg |'''A''' | |||
File:Lewy bodies (alpha synuclein inclusions) 1.jpg |'''B''' | |||
File:Eosinophilic inclusions parkinson HE.jpg |'''C''' | |||
File:Lewy bodies (alpha synuclein inclusions) 4.jpg |'''D''' | |||
File:213-09-11-Congo Red Lewy body.tif|'''E''' | |||
File:Lewy Body alphaSynuclein.jpg|'''F''' | |||
</gallery> | |||
::I think some kind of histological sample would be the best way to go. If you look at current featured articles on diseases (], ], ], ] etc.) that's what most go with. It's the status quo. If we do go down that route, I've attached some tentative images. F is my preference — I like the staining. B is nice as well. ~ ]] 03:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::That’s not what most go with. It’s not the status quo. This is the status quo: | |||
{{closed rfc top|result=There is a resounding consensus against having this Lewy body as the lead image, so I'll close this per ]. ~ ]] 21:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
<gallery mode="packed" heights="100"> | |||
Should the four images currently used in the infobox be replaced with ] of a ] below? ~ ]] 02:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
File:Buruli_ulcers_grouped_image.png | |||
] (stained brown), an abnormal ] found in neurons, a hallmark of Parkinson's disease]] | |||
File:Denguerash.JPG | |||
===Past Discussions=== | |||
</gallery> | |||
, , , , , , ~ ]] 02:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
=== Discussion === | |||
::<s>File:Blausen_0348_EndometrialCancer.png | |||
*'''Support new image''' The current four images are low-quality, inconsistent, and unnecessarily clutter the infobox. More importantly, they fail to represent Parkinson's disease accurately, given its highly variable symptoms, which range from low blood pressure to cognitive decline. It's not even very clear what symptoms the current lead images are trying to illustrate, like the circled foot. These images violate ] as they are not genuinely representative. In contrast, a Lewy body—widely recognized as the hallmark biological feature of Parkinson's disease—provides a more accurate and universal depiction. Trying to accurately depict patients afflicted with a disease in the lead image is almost impossible and is not the standard on Misplaced Pages: see ], ], ], or other neurodegenerative diseases like ], the FA ], ], ], ], or ]. ~ ]] 02:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::File:LungCACXR.PNG | |||
*:If anyone needs a direct comparison, these are the lead images on related articles: | |||
::File:Van_Gogh_-_Trauernder_alter_Mann.jpeg | |||
<gallery mode="packed"> | |||
::File:Meninges-en.svg | |||
File:MS Demyelinisation CD68 10xv2.jpg|] | |||
::File:Head_of_femur_avascular_necrosis.jpg | |||
File:Lewy body in the substantia nigra from a person with Parkinson's disease.jpg|] | |||
::File:File-Oxygen_toxicity_testing.jpeg | |||
File:Neuron with mHtt inclusion.jpg|] | |||
::File:Diagram_showing_the_position_of_the_pancreas_CRUK_356.svg | |||
File:MSA aSynuclein.jpg|] | |||
::File:Polio_lores134.jpg | |||
File:BrainAtrophy(exvacuo).png|] | |||
::File:RhabdoUrine.JPG | |||
File:Leigh Trichrom.jpg|] | |||
::File:Cloth_embroidered_by_a_schizophrenia_sufferer.jpg | |||
::File:Illu08_thyroid.jpg | |||
::File:Tourette2.jpg</s>; edited to make page loads faster 05:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
::14 medical FAs out of the total 23. | |||
::BTW, the current lead image doesn’t mean much to me without reading the caption. And even after reading the caption, IMHO our global lay audience won’t know much about alpha-synuclein or Lewy bodies. Further, currently PD isn’t diagnosed by those (unlike other diseases such as Dementia with Lewy bodies), it’s diagnosed by symptoms. --] (]) 13:44, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::I’ve :) , added images created from an image uploaded by {{u|Msokun}}, who generously released it under the CC0 license. --] (]) 14:31, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::It's a bit too many images I think - bloats the infobox. ~ ]] 21:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::I concur that the image is trying to do too much at once ... when it comes to infoboxes, less is more. It would make better since in prognosis or another section which discusses progression. ] (]) 22:22, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::I concur that the new four-way image is trying to do too much at once ... when it comes to infoboxes, less is more. It would make better sense in prognosis or signs/symptoms or another section which discusses progression. ] (]) 22:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Parkinson%27s_disease&diff=prev&oldid=1181239793 | |||
::::::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Parkinson%27s_disease&diff=prev&oldid=1181240012 | |||
::::::Good --] (]) 22:30, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::The new proposal is four images, where A is pretty much the same as D, and the images are captioned in a way that they are trying to convey the entire progression of PD in the infobox ... it's too much. ] (]) 22:36, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::::::GOOD. --] (]) 22:39, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::And it’s really good to know the BIG differences between 3 images and 4 images. | |||
:::::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Parkinson%27s_disease&diff=prev&oldid=1181240012 | |||
:::::::::Thanks for telling me that. --] (]) 22:45, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I don't think we should determine "What image should lead this article?" based on whatever shit, frankly, editors managed to find that was free and stick on other articles, featured or otherwise. Misplaced Pages is ''extremely'' limited in its choice of pictures and most articles are badly illustrated. A better question would be "What images does media with an image budget choose to illustrate articles/books on PD?" And aim to get that if we can. -- ]°] 16:38, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Agree (the only reason DLB is a stain TS is Georges is that there is nothing else available). We also need to stop indiscriminately changing images here, and start discussing before changing. The article text/content needs major work; the image issues have so far been a distraction. ] (]) 16:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::The has a graphic highlighting the ]. Since that's the brain region largely at play, it might be worth it to do the same or have some graphic regarding dopaminergic neurons. | |||
<gallery mode="packed" heights="200"> | |||
File:Substantia nigra.gif | |||
File:Dopaminergic system and reward processing.jpg | |||
File:Substantia Nigra.jpg | |||
</gallery> | </gallery> | ||
*'''No''' {{sbb}} I don't find microscopic images of damaged tissue very informative to understanding the effect of a disease. The current image has been in the article for about one year, and of the "Gowers' illustration" was in the article as early as . In 2011, it was even a featured article with the "Gowers' illustration". Based on the discussions I included above, the Gowler's illustration seems historically significant--so I prefer seeing it included high up in the article as it is now. There seems to be a long-running consensus to keep an image such as the current one. About a year ago was floated and apparently rejected, which might be an acceptable alternative to the current one. --] (]) 04:28, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Here are some candidates. ~ ]] 18:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
*'''No'''. I don't think the proposed picture of a Lewy body helps the reader to understand anything at all about Parkinson's. --] (]) 11:21, 14 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::They can be added to the article, but not the lead. A quote from the first link you posted “this volume is a vital reference for {{tq|neurobiologists, cell biologists, and pathologists}} pursuing the biological basis of Parkinson's disease, as well as {{tq|scientists and clinicians}}”. I don’t think the images are intended for most of our readers. --] (]) 19:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
: |
*'''No''': per above. --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:100%;color:#00008B;background-color:transparent;;CSS">]]</span> 16:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
*'''No'''. The proposed Lewy body image assumes the general user would understand or recognize the cellular effect, which is unlikely; see ] and ] #6,7. The disease symptoms image ] is a good choice for general users to visually grasp the article. ] (]) 19:31, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{closed rfc bottom}} | |||
=== Different versions === | |||
I have been testing with different image combinations and have come up with 3 different versions of infobox, A, B, and C (it’s the sandbox of another user, used in previous lead image discussion ). The total width was reduced. C is a variation of A, but the 1880s image doesn’t come first. B uses only 2 images (the photos that are now in the article). Long caption has been removed. But they can be added back or edited easily. The space between images can also be changed (by changing a parameter) if needed. --] (]) 08:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I'm not opposed to two images (the donkey and fish sizing looks fine), but four is simply too many. I also really don't like the two images we currently have of the gait. They are pretty low resolution and something about it (maybe the low overall quality or pixelated faces) reminds me of a terrorist hostage video. I still think an image of an alpha-synuclein deposit would be the best way to go, but I'm open to alternatives. ~ ]] 18:47, 13 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::I think the image of alpha-synuclein deposit belongs to the body, but not the infobox. I still think ] applies: | |||
::<blockquote> This page in a nutshell: Strive to make each part of every article as {{tq|understandable}} as possible to the {{tq|widest}} audience of readers who are likely to be interested in that material.</blockquote> | |||
::I would like to know more on why you insist that we should have it in the lead though. The edit summary you left when adding the current image was simply “added meaningful image ...” --] (]) 21:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::I have updated the two images (gait). Hope that addresses your concern. --] (]) 08:34, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:I added 3 more versions, so there are A to F now. | |||
:* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:WhatamIdoing/Sandbox_3&oldid=1189771208 | |||
:Actually any combination of the different images is possible. --] (]) 19:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::In this the infobxes’ width were reduced to 300px, and an image of alpha-synuclein deposit was added below infobox for testing. --] (]) 08:39, 14 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
: is the latest sandbox page, which contains 8 versions of infobox, with almost all the possibilities I can think of. While I don’t think the number of images in the box is a big problem, considering that we have 7 images and 4 maps in article like ], I’m open to an infobox with fewer images. Discussion welcomed in case anyone is still not happy with infobox A, which have been included in the article already. I’d be happy with any version (A-H) in the sandbox. --] (]) 19:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::As a side, there are two versions of Gowers’ sketch in the sandbox. Both are made from his . The difference between them is that has better image quality, while has thicker lines and thus resembles the more. I made two because I’m not sure which one people would prefer. The later one is in the article now. --] (]) 20:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm cool with what we have now. Nice work. ~ ]] 00:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::Thanks, HAL333! --] (]) 04:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
== 2024 revision == | |||
Since I'm revising larger parts of the article, I want to explain my further intentions in this talk page. If you have any thoughts on my edits, feel free to add a new paragraph to this discussion and I will try to describe them more detailed. | |||
'''30 May 2024 restore by @]''' () | |||
While I appreciate the inclusion of the fact that non-motor symptoms may precede motor symptoms, most of the paragraph's content is repetitive and too specific for the "lead section" of the symptom subheading. For example, the specification of prevalence and the mention of pneumonia, which is more of a complication linked to prognosis rather than a symptom, are overly detailed for this section. Additionally, two out of the three sources are outdated: one is from 2008 and another from 2016, indicating that the data may no longer be current. The remaining source, from 2023, primarily addresses treatment and intervention options for dysphagia rather than the broader range of symptoms mentioned. | |||
What I did now: ] the paragraph in its current form seems neither feasible nor useful imho (], ]). The guideline states "fix problems if you can, tag or excise them if you can't", and I don't see a way to just "fix" this without rewriting it substantially. Nevertheless, I proceeded cautiously. Thus, I altered the paragraph, included one major symptom from each non-motor subheading, made the wording more concise, and shortened some formulations. Regarding the sources, I removed the outdated ones and moved the dysphagia-related source to the section specifically discussing dysphagia. For the rest, I provided up-to-date literature. | |||
I hope you, Dustfreeworld, understand and approve of my approach. If you have any further ideas or objections to my edits, please let me know. –] (]) 09:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Dustfreeworld has been banned from medical topics, so we should not expect them to respond. Perhaps other editors will. ] (]) 10:01, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::@] oh, ok, thank you for the information - we'll see. –] (]) 10:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
== contradiction? == | |||
== Prevention section == | |||
under causes and risk factors, it states '85% of cases are sporadic, meaning there is no family history' however directly under that it states 'heritability lies around 22-45%' | |||
The subhead is misnamed - there is no 'prevention', only potential reduction of risk. All the sources used in this section are research-in-progress. The section should be retitled 'Research on risk reduction' and moved to below the 'Prognosis' section. ] (]) 19:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
is this perhaps just an inconsistency between two studies? ] (]) 10:37, 18 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The "Prevention" subsection has been around for quite some time, and is the standard on related articles like ], and is suggested per ]. I think that this objection might be rooted in a misunderstanding of the meaning of "prevention" in a medical context. It quite literally means "potential reduction of risk" (per the NIH: ""). Also, "Research on risk reduction" is a somewhat ungainly title, and don't essentially all of these subsections result from research? Should they all be titled "Research on X"? It seems redundant. ~ ]] 21:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::The word prevention may mislead general non-science users to conclude there are ''certain'' lifestyle practices for avoiding PD, ]. Moving this section into the 'Clinical research' topics seems the best place for it, but it should be significantly trimmed. | |||
::The phrases "may have a protective effect", "hypothesized to be neuroprotective" or "proposed to be neuroprotective" are non-neutral (as they may not), are based on primary research, and are ]. That is why I removed ] (]) 22:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes, some of that material was cited to primary research papers and you rightly removed them. However, the only sources I've used in that subsection are secondary review articles. Also, the subsection immediately and explicitly states "no disease-modifying therapies exist that reverse or slow neurodegeneration" at the very beginning, so I don't think anyone is being misled. | |||
:::Regardless, although I see "Prevention" as a fine subtitle, do you think maybe retitling it as "Neuroprotection" or "Potential neuroprotection" would be a sufficient compromise? I also would not be opposed to splitting "Risk factors" from the "Causes" sections and then having a "Risk factors" section (as we used to) with "Positive risk factors" and "Negative risk factors" subtitles. ~ ]] 22:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Better to use the positive and negative risk factors for subheads. Also, is not ]-indexed, so its content should be removed as unreliable. The ''Frontiers'' journals trigger a dubious source alert - would be good to find better reviews or remove them. ] (]) 00:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Sounds good, I'll integrate the Prevention section and take a look at those sources tomorrow. Cheers, ~ ]] 04:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::There isn't really a concept of "positive risk factor" or "negative risk factor" so please don't create these as separate headers. You could talk about "protective risk factors" which is sometimes done. But probably best to just have a "risk factor" section. Smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer. Quit and it is protective. Start and it is the opposite. Same for most other risk factors - depends on whether the dose is increasing or decreasing. ] (]) 05:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Frontiers review articles should be OK. See ]. But if there is a higher profile or more recent reference for the same thing, may be better to replace it. If it is an extreme or implausible claim, then be careful of any single source. ] (]) 05:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:The concept of "prevention" includes interventions that are not 100% guaranteed to stop a disease. So a section on lifestyle interventions (such as exercise) that prevent (or stave off) PD is reasonable. All of medicine is in a process of continuous research, so it may not be necessary to overly emphasize that interventions (such as exercise) that are backed by a lot of research belong in a separate "researchy stuff" section. This article is in the scope of ], so it makes sense to follow WikiProject Medicine guidelines. I am not quite sure what a "non-science" user is, but if there is some writing that is hard to understand, we can work on making it more understandable, including links to epistemological concepts like ] (which needs some work) and ]. ] (]) 05:26, 20 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== |
== Broken references == | ||
@] |
@] I've fixed a bunch of the shortened footnotes – you might like to double-check the edits in , but there were a handful I couldn't work out (ref numbers are in of the article): | ||
* #35 Weintraub & Mamikonyan 2019, p. 661 – I found but the page numbers don't match. Perhaps it's a typo for the paper cited in the previous reference? | |||
:{{U|Wham2001}}, oops. Thanks for catching that. I've just fixed it. Cheers. ~ ]] 22:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
* #42 Palma & Kaufmann 2020, pp. 1465–1466 – I corrected the other Palma & Kaufmann refs to 2018, but here the page numbers don't match | |||
* #65 Tanner & Ostrem 2024 – no idea about this one | |||
* #230 Corcoran, Muiño & Kluger 2021, p. 1 – ditto. | |||
You might like to consider installing ], which highlights problems with {{tl|sfn}}s for you in lurid pink – I find it invaluable. Thanks for your work on the article, and thanks in advance for fixing the references above. Good luck at GAN! Best, ] (]) 21:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{Talk:Parkinson's disease/GA3}} |
Latest revision as of 02:02, 26 December 2024
Parkinson's disease is currently a Biology and medicine good article nominee. Nominated by ~ HAL333 at 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC) An editor has indicated a willingness to review the article in accordance with the good article criteria and will decide whether or not to list it as a good article. Comments are welcome from any editor who has not nominated or contributed significantly to this article. This review will be closed by the first reviewer. To add comments to this review, click discuss review and edit the page. Short description: Progressive neurodegenerative disease |
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Parkinson's disease article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Wiki Education assignment: Biology I from cells to organisms
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2024 and 5 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TTK043 (article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by TTK043 (talk) 05:54, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
RfC: Should the four lead images be replaced?
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Should the four images currently used in the infobox be replaced with this one of a Lewy body below? ~ HAL333 02:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Past Discussions
2023, 2022, 2013, 3-25-2011, 3-8-2011, 2008, 2006 ~ HAL333 02:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
- Support new image The current four images are low-quality, inconsistent, and unnecessarily clutter the infobox. More importantly, they fail to represent Parkinson's disease accurately, given its highly variable symptoms, which range from low blood pressure to cognitive decline. It's not even very clear what symptoms the current lead images are trying to illustrate, like the circled foot. These images violate Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section as they are not genuinely representative. In contrast, a Lewy body—widely recognized as the hallmark biological feature of Parkinson's disease—provides a more accurate and universal depiction. Trying to accurately depict patients afflicted with a disease in the lead image is almost impossible and is not the standard on Misplaced Pages: see Cancer, Tuberculosis, Syphilis, or other neurodegenerative diseases like Huntington's disease, the FA Dementia with Lewy bodies, Multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer's disease, ALS, or Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease. ~ HAL333 02:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- If anyone needs a direct comparison, these are the lead images on related articles:
- Multiple sclerosis
- Dementia with Lewy bodies
- Huntington's disease
- Multiple system atrophy
- Vascular dementia
- Leigh syndrome
- No (Summoned by bot) I don't find microscopic images of damaged tissue very informative to understanding the effect of a disease. The current image has been in the article for about one year, and this simpler image of the "Gowers' illustration" was in the article as early as 6-1-2019. In 2011, it was even a featured article with the "Gowers' illustration". Based on the discussions I included above, the Gowler's illustration seems historically significant--so I prefer seeing it included high up in the article as it is now. There seems to be a long-running consensus to keep an image such as the current one. About a year ago this image was floated and apparently rejected, which might be an acceptable alternative to the current one. --David Tornheim (talk) 04:28, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- No. I don't think the proposed picture of a Lewy body helps the reader to understand anything at all about Parkinson's. --Alarics (talk) 11:21, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- No: per above. --ZZ'S 16:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- No. The proposed Lewy body image assumes the general user would understand or recognize the cellular effect, which is unlikely; see WP:WFTWA and WP:NOTTEXTBOOK #6,7. The disease symptoms image is a good choice for general users to visually grasp the article. Zefr (talk) 19:31, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Prevention section
The subhead is misnamed - there is no 'prevention', only potential reduction of risk. All the sources used in this section are research-in-progress. The section should be retitled 'Research on risk reduction' and moved to below the 'Prognosis' section. Zefr (talk) 19:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- The "Prevention" subsection has been around for quite some time, and is the standard on related articles like Alzheimer's disease, and is suggested per WP:MEDMOS. I think that this objection might be rooted in a misunderstanding of the meaning of "prevention" in a medical context. It quite literally means "potential reduction of risk" (per the NIH: "Prevention = In medicine, action taken to decrease the chance of getting a disease or condition"). Also, "Research on risk reduction" is a somewhat ungainly title, and don't essentially all of these subsections result from research? Should they all be titled "Research on X"? It seems redundant. ~ HAL333 21:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- The word prevention may mislead general non-science users to conclude there are certain lifestyle practices for avoiding PD, WP:WFTWA. Moving this section into the 'Clinical research' topics seems the best place for it, but it should be significantly trimmed.
- The phrases "may have a protective effect", "hypothesized to be neuroprotective" or "proposed to be neuroprotective" are non-neutral (as they may not), are based on primary research, and are MOS:WEASEL. That is why I removed this. Zefr (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, some of that material was cited to primary research papers and you rightly removed them. However, the only sources I've used in that subsection are secondary review articles. Also, the subsection immediately and explicitly states "no disease-modifying therapies exist that reverse or slow neurodegeneration" at the very beginning, so I don't think anyone is being misled.
- Regardless, although I see "Prevention" as a fine subtitle, do you think maybe retitling it as "Neuroprotection" or "Potential neuroprotection" would be a sufficient compromise? I also would not be opposed to splitting "Risk factors" from the "Causes" sections and then having a "Risk factors" section (as we used to) with "Positive risk factors" and "Negative risk factors" subtitles. ~ HAL333 22:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Better to use the positive and negative risk factors for subheads. Also, this source is not MEDLINE-indexed, so its content should be removed as unreliable. The Frontiers journals trigger a dubious source alert - would be good to find better reviews or remove them. Zefr (talk) 00:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good, I'll integrate the Prevention section and take a look at those sources tomorrow. Cheers, ~ HAL333 04:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- There isn't really a concept of "positive risk factor" or "negative risk factor" so please don't create these as separate headers. You could talk about "protective risk factors" which is sometimes done. But probably best to just have a "risk factor" section. Smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer. Quit and it is protective. Start and it is the opposite. Same for most other risk factors - depends on whether the dose is increasing or decreasing. Jaredroach (talk) 05:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Frontiers review articles should be OK. See WP:MEDRS. But if there is a higher profile or more recent reference for the same thing, may be better to replace it. If it is an extreme or implausible claim, then be careful of any single source. Jaredroach (talk) 05:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good, I'll integrate the Prevention section and take a look at those sources tomorrow. Cheers, ~ HAL333 04:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Better to use the positive and negative risk factors for subheads. Also, this source is not MEDLINE-indexed, so its content should be removed as unreliable. The Frontiers journals trigger a dubious source alert - would be good to find better reviews or remove them. Zefr (talk) 00:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- The concept of "prevention" includes interventions that are not 100% guaranteed to stop a disease. So a section on lifestyle interventions (such as exercise) that prevent (or stave off) PD is reasonable. All of medicine is in a process of continuous research, so it may not be necessary to overly emphasize that interventions (such as exercise) that are backed by a lot of research belong in a separate "researchy stuff" section. This article is in the scope of WP:MED, so it makes sense to follow WikiProject Medicine guidelines. I am not quite sure what a "non-science" user is, but if there is some writing that is hard to understand, we can work on making it more understandable, including links to epistemological concepts like risk factor (which needs some work) and causality. Jaredroach (talk) 05:26, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Broken references
@HAL333 I've fixed a bunch of the shortened footnotes – you might like to double-check the edits in this combined diff, but there were a handful I couldn't work out (ref numbers are in this version of the article):
- #35 Weintraub & Mamikonyan 2019, p. 661 – I found this source but the page numbers don't match. Perhaps it's a typo for the paper cited in the previous reference?
- #42 Palma & Kaufmann 2020, pp. 1465–1466 – I corrected the other Palma & Kaufmann refs to 2018, but here the page numbers don't match
- #65 Tanner & Ostrem 2024 – no idea about this one
- #230 Corcoran, Muiño & Kluger 2021, p. 1 – ditto.
You might like to consider installing this script, which highlights problems with {{sfn}}s for you in lurid pink – I find it invaluable. Thanks for your work on the article, and thanks in advance for fixing the references above. Good luck at GAN! Best, Wham2001 (talk) 21:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
GA Review
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Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Parkinson's disease/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: HAL333 (talk · contribs) 18:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: IntentionallyDense (talk · contribs) 01:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is a huge topic so it may take me longer than usual to review, I'll fill out the table as I go and make comments below so it is easier for you to respond. At first glance, there is a few SFN errors that should be fixed. Additionally per WP:MEDDATE we should be using articles published within the last 5 years wherever possible. Because Parkinsons is such a hot topic I would imagine there is enough research to be able to do this. If you plan on taking this to FAC then I'd try to use the 5 year rule, but for the sake of GAN I try to stick to 10 years. Meaning every source published before 2015 (excluding NICE reviews, Cocheran reviews, and history section) should be replaced with more recent sources. IntentionallyDense 01:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
---|---|---|
1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | ||
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | ||
2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | IntentionallyDense 21:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC) | |
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | ||
2c. it contains no original research. | ||
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. | ||
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | ||
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | ||
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | ||
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | IntentionallyDense 21:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC) | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC) | |
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | Some minor issues are listed below. IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC) | |
7. Overall assessment. | On hold until HAL333 can address the issues I have found thusfar. IntentionallyDense 21:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
Images
- For the image under the motor section of symptoms "diminutive handwriting" isn't defined which is an issue cause the wikilink doesn't really help. A quick explanation would be nice. IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- Under the autonomic section, I don't feel like your image caption of Dysphagia—an autonomic failure—and subsequent complications like aspiration pneumonia (pictured) reduce quality of life. is super helpful here. Could it be changed to something along the lines of
Dysphagia can lead to aspiration pneumonia (pictured)
as the QOL isn't brought up elsewhere in this section so it feels out of place. IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC) - The caption under the two images in the causes section may read better as
The protein alpha-synuclein aggregates into Lewy bodies and neurites. Structural model of alpha-synuclein (left), photomicrograph of Lewy bodies (right).
to better explain the two images. IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC) - Under imaging the term "F-DOPA" is used but never explained. Is there a wikilink you could add or could you give a brief explanation on this? IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- Under levodopa the acronym LCE is used. Could you spell this out in full? IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- The wording of the caption under the tricycle is a little odd. Could you reword it? IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- Under cell based therapies the caption says "one such iSPC differentiated" but I assume you mean iPSCs. IntentionallyDense 02:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Sources
- You have quite a few borderline sources included here. I'll link all of the ones I found on a quick look. If you could replace as many of these as possible that would be great. IntentionallyDense 21:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- Not all of these will need to be replaced. Try putting the issn into this website. For example, the journal "International journal of molecular sciences" (used in this pub) is indexed in a lot of databases while some of the other journals here aren't indexed in may databases. IntentionallyDense 02:34, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
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