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:::That's funny. I was thinking the same thing. --] 01:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC) :::That's funny. I was thinking the same thing. --] 01:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

::::It has come to my attention that the actions of at least one side in this party are getting rather out of hand. Specifically, around half an hour '''after''' I posted information indicating that the church to which Dylan is referenced in sources to have become involved with does not have a policy of keeping records of membership or even baptisms on one of the two threads here, that party posted on the other thread a comment to the effect that what he sought was evidence of a baptism, perhaps in the form of a baptismal record. I repeat, this is half an hour '''after''' I had posted a reference to one of our own articles to the effect that this body does not keep such records. Also, he seems to believe that the number of speeches Dylan, whom he apparently sees as being purely a Jew, could deliver enough speeches on Jesus from stage to be collected into a stand-alone book as being adopting a musical persona. Lastly, he also disputes the clear language of many of the sources, many of which have even stricter "libel" and such policies than we do, as not being enough evidence to keep us from being considered for libel for simply repeating and/or referencing published statements from these other entities with generally stricter policies on unsubstantiated material. Lastly, he has demonstrated a rather interesting command of the facts of this discussion.<br>
I should make it clear that my own interest in this discussion is in trying to ensure that we do not now have placed on us such absurdly difficult standards of proof, generally beyond those that the majority of other, often publicly more reliable, sources of information have in place, that it would be all but impossible to have any content relating to living persons. Personally, I regret to say that I have no particular fondness for Mr. Dylan, and didn't even know about articles like this one until I got a message about this discussion on my talk page. Having seen the discussion, I do think that there are a few relevant issues involved which could and should be addressed. These include whether a apparently only three or so year conversion (I would still like to see evidence of a reconversion; I don't think I have) would qualify someone for unqualified inclusion on this list. I have also raised earlier what I think is the reasonable question as to whether we might have separate content on reverts or people who have engaged in multiple conversions. I am happy to see that some of these matters have been addressed earlier today. However, so far as I can see, the other party in this discussion is only interested in the unqualified, absolute removal of this content in its entirety, for what are pretty much, at least in my eyes, poor reasoning.<br>
Returning to the point, I notice that the other editor had identified earlier another "convert" who engaged in what may have been more activity demonstrating his conversion than simply annoying his audience with Jesus lectures, which seems to have been the sum of Dylan's activity. Again, this party appears to think that it is reasonable to think a Jew would preach about Jesus from the stage to his audience as part of a "stage persona." Right. Anyway, this other party he had mentioned on the ] talk page, ], was also a convert to the ], the entity which is described as being involved in Dylan's own conversion. If the other party knew of Dylan's own involvement with this body, then he would also know that they do not keep the sort of records that he has been demanding. On that basis, I regret to say that, as an individual, I am beginning to find it increasingly difficult to unreservedly ] on this party's behalf. ] 23:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


== Request for comment == == Request for comment ==

Revision as of 23:55, 29 April 2007


Archives

Discussions from April 5, 2007 to the present. Please see archive 1 for earlier discussions

Claims of conversion

This list is of little value - this list seems very POV and impossible to verify - as are all claims of conversion even within the Christian church. Should have been deleted.Brian0324 14:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

What brings you to this conclusion?--C.Logan 19:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a ponderous list of people. Sooner or later it would have to include everyone who claimed to be a Christian for one reason or another. Where does it end?Brian0324 20:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I can follow through to your argument. This page exists as a simple reference to notable individuals who have converted from any faith to Christianity. It's really not "impossible to verify"... just click the Wiki-links to the individual pages, or the references placed here. The page exists for the same reason the other religious conversion pages exist, and for the same reason pages like List of vegetarian celebrities exist. It simply provides a convenient list of notable people based around a certain subject. It provides a footstool to reaching useful information about a person: for example, a student doing a project on religious conversion. I'm surprised that you believe this page should have been deleted, when there are pages which are much more obscure and useless hiding in the far corners of the Wiki-verse.--C.Logan 20:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Bob Dylan

Reliable sources are required. Most of the sources provided are Christian sources, or they are secondary sources. They are mired in the agenda of proselytizing. Conversion is not accomplished by record albums and momentary and private conversations with a priest. Most importantly we have no public formal ritual or ceremony. We do not have any accounting of an actual occasion marking the conversion by an unbiased commentator. Bob Dylan's own very often used imagery involving Jesus and Christianity is not evidence of conversion. Conversion should be understood to involve something concrete, otherwise conversion is meaningless, and anyone, under any circumstances, can be said to have converted. He was born a Jew and firm evidence should be required to dislodge him from that status, even temporarily. Not the fact that somebody said something in an offhand sort of way or that Gospel music was his passion during this time. Furthermore the period in question did not last very long. He was shortly into other musical styles and all sightings of "Christian" involvement quickly drop off. There are accountings of his re-involvement with Jewish rituals such as attending upon regularly recurring holidays of the Jewish calendar, since that time. And since that time he has moved on stylistically from Gospel music to other compositional styles, metamorphosing correspondingly into other personas. There is really no concrete evidence of conversion -- nothing even close. Bob Dylan is a superstar. Tons of ink are spilled constantly. Metaphors get interpreted as facts, and that is how you have misinformation. Bus stop 05:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Let's take a look at the sources in question.
1. Christianity Today: the original source, and says in a second hand way that he is somehow involved in the Christian faith. It doesn't literally, undoubtedly say that he converted, but it mentions his "completion into the Christian faith". It isn't the best source, but it does make the major points, and Christianity Today, while it does have a bias and a specific audience, is a reliable source.
2."Kenn Gulliksen Comment's about Dylan's Status As Believer, April 25, 1999": black text on a white page. Wow, seems like anyone could have written this. But if you actually search for Kenn Gullikson, you'll find a few things: which is a less stripped-down mirror of the source cited, site explaining the history of Kenn's church and its beliefs, and site which talks about Kenn's life with the church, and happens to mention him as Dylan's former pastor. Both the original source, it's mirror and the last link here were written by Dan Wooding, who is described on the mirror site as "an award winning British journalist now living in Southern California with his wife, Norma. He is the founder and international director of ASSIST (Aid to Special Saints in Strategic Times). Wooding is also the author of some 38 books (the latest of which is called "Blind Faith" with his 91-year-old mother, Anne Wooding -- ASSIST Books and WinePress Publishing), a syndicated columnist and a commentator on the UPI Radio Network in Washington, DC."
Regardless of the bias these sites may have, they are still sources which provide support for the veracity of Dylan's conversion.
3.Rightwingbob: This source presents excerpts from an interview with Dylan by Bruce Heiman, which was performed 18 years ago, shortly after the release of 'Slow Train Coming'. Here is the excerpt from the source...


Heiman: Well the Atheists are against any sort of religion, be it Christianity ….
Dylan: Well, Christ is no religion. We’re not talking about religion … Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Heiman: OK. They believe that all religion is repressive.
Dylan: Well, religion is repressive to a certain degree. Religion is another form of bondage which man invents to to get himself to God. But that’s why Christ came. Christ didn’t preach religion. He preached the Truth, the Way and the Life. He said He’d come to give life and life more abundantly. He talked about life, not necessarily religion …
Dylan: Well, a religion which says you have to do certain things to get to God - they’re probably talking about that kind of religion, which is a religion which is by works: you can enter into the Kingdom by what you do, what you wear, what you say, how many times a day you pray, how many good deeds you may do. If that’s what they mean by religion, that type of religion will not get you into the Kingdom, that’s true. However there is a Master Creator, a Supreme Being in the Universe.
Heiman: Alright. In another one of their statements they say that: “For years Dylan cried out against the Masters Of War and the power elite. The new Dylan now proclaims that we must serve a new master, a master whose nebulous origins were ignorance, foolishness, stupidity and blind faith. The Dylan who inspired us to look beyond banal textbooks and accepted ideologies now implores us to turn inwards to the pages of The Holy Bible, a book filled with contradictions, inaccuracies, outrages and absurdities”. Now this is what they’re saying.
Dylan: Well, the Bible says: “The fool has said in his heart, there’s no God … ”


Okay... regardless of what interpretation you have of things, it is typically sufficient evidence that someone believes in something when they themselves profess it. Anyone who claims these things could be insincere, but it's not our duty on Misplaced Pages to make that assumption.
4. Bobdylan.com: The fourth source is a little writing by a man named Alan Jacobs, who apparently teaches English at Wheaton College in Illinois. This source discusses Dylan's conversion from a fan's point of view, and also makes mention of the disbelief and protest from many of Dylan's fans over the matter.
5."Laramie Movie Scope: Bob Dylan -- 1976-1981: Rolling Thunder & the Gospel Years": This is an amateur (from the looks of it) review of a documentary dealing with Dylan's Christian/Gospel period.
While the movie in itself may be a sufficient source, I haven't seen it, so the synopsis and review provided by this site is relatively sufficient in determining the content and purpose of the documentary.
6."Insights into Bob Dylan's faith journey": This source is a brief mention about Bob Dylan's faith and the public opinion of it; also, it assesses the album "Bob Dylan: Live, 1961-2000" and the book by Howard Sounes, "Down the Highway: The Life of Bob Dylan". An excerpt from the site:
While author Howard Sounes is by no means endorsing Dylan's expressions of faith, he treats the Christian albums, and Dylan's phenomenal Gospel concerts, with evident respect. There are also some intriguing insights. For example, while many commentators have asserted that Dylan left Christianity in the early 1980s, Sounes cites an account by singer Louise Bethune, who toured with Dylan in '86 and '87: "Although there was no longer such an explicit religious element in his albums, and it was reported in the press that Bob had returned to Judaism, Bethune reveals that Bob prayed with his Christian backing singers every night."
Yet another source that acknowledges that Dylan was indeed "in" Christianity (how else could people assume he left it?), and that he actively participated in religious worship with Christians, even after his albums lost their religious element.
7."Classicbands.com - Bob Dylan": A general time-line/biography of Dylan's life, which makes mention of his announcement of conversion, his Christian albums, and later suspicions that he was no longer adhering to that faith.
8."Crossrhythms.co.uk": This source discusses celebrity converts in general, and moves on to Dylan. It discusses his Christian period, and suspicions that his faith died out shortly afterward. The source then mentions a new book titled "Restless Pilgrim: The Spiritual Journey Of Bob Dylan" by Scott Marshall and Marcia Ford. The site goes into a detailed analysis of Dylan's music and faith, and speaks much about the information found in the new book. Here is an excerpt from this site:
Dylan's faith, we are told, is alive and well. He studied with the Lubavitchers as a Christian we are assured and when he does speak publicly his comments are consistent with belief.
According to this site, and the book, Dylan was not only Christian once, but still seems to be. Okay.
9."Bob Dylan's Christian Music, 1979-81": Another site which loosely relays Bob's conversion story, the people involved, and his subsequent albums.
This was quite a pain. Many of the sources used for including converts on any of these "religious conversion" lists are from sources directly affiliated with their newfound religion. The fact that a source has a bias towards a particular religion is not in itself a problem, but establishing the reliability of the source is crucial. Considering that these sources are all in generally agreement about Dylan's conversion, and several of them provide details about the conversion story itself. I invite any users to assess these sources to determine their reliability. If a consensus is reached over the unreliability of a source, it will be removed. --C.Logan 07:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The above is entirely irrelevant. No reliable, high profile publication, makes note in a straightforward manner of the religious conversion of such an eminently newsworthy person. Anyone curious why this does not exist? Simple answer: there is no conversion. The basic hallmark of conversion is the conversion process. Not the farfetched reasoning in the above "sources." There is no public, formal conversion process. Therefore a Jew remains a Jew. We don't tar and feather a person based on the flimsy scribbling in the above "sources." Bus stop 12:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
    • bus stop, you finally used the talk page. Thanks. Bob Dylan's relation to Christianity seems to be all over the internet. It is mentioned on his official home page - this is a RS for his bio. There does seem to be confusion about whether he did convert or not, but according to his website, he did convert. C Logan, the article Bob Dylan may give further clues. --Matt57 13:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
  • No it doesn't. This is what it says: "About the time I became a Christian, in 1978 or so, Bob Dylan did too. Of course, I didn't know about his conversion at the time." That is attributed to one Alan Jacobs, not to Bob Dylan. Bus stop 13:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
  • And a Google search returning 1,520,000 hits for the three search terms "Bob," "Dylan," "Christianity," indicates nothing. Find a source. We are not debating the notability of Bob Dylan or Christianity. Bus stop 13:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
    • How about this: "In a dramatic turnabout, he converted to Christianity in 1979 and for three years recorded and performed only religious material, preaching between songs at live shows." -- this is Encyclopedia Britannica. It really is all over the internet. I'm an athiest myself and have no motives of making this initiative but there is some association of him to Christianity and even conversion. Whether he is now a christian, I dont know. Maybe we can add "present faith unknown, but did convert in 1978", or whatever the date is.--Matt57 15:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Matt57 -- You say, "...there is some association of him to Christianity and even conversion." But not official conversion. Language used fancifully can refer to conversion. Bear in mind that this is a list, not an article. An article is concerned that an assertion be attributable to a source. Grey areas and balance can be built into an article. A list is an either/or situation. In the absence of clear indication of conversion we do not assume the unlikely. On the contrary we require good sources to overturn what is likely. We are not talking about a street gang. We are talking about organized religion -- characterized by ritual and even bureaucracy. If Encyclopedia Britannica got it wrong so be it. It would not be the first time. Conversion is not hanging around on a street corner together. That is a misrepresentation of Christianity. All that the arguments made so far amount to is that Dylan converted to a bunch of guys who mean nothing and stand for nothing. After a person converts, their lives are typically altered. Where is the followthrough we would reasonably expect of a convert? Did Dylan adopt any practices that marked his life as a Christian life after this supposed conversion? Look at the life of Keith Green, referenced in the Dylan article, identified as a Christian singer. He can be seen to be living a Christian life. If Dylan converted, how come it apparently had no bearing whatsoever on his life? All he did is perform Gospel music until it was time for his style to evolve. I see no evidence for conversion to Christianity whatsoever. It is preposterous to list him as a Christian convert, and it is abusing Misplaced Pages for advocacy purposes, which is against WP:SOAP. Bus stop 16:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources can now be found in the Bob Dylan article, specifically, the New York Times, as indicated by the changes here. And, of course, the Encyclopedia Britannica as cited above is very hard to not consider a reliable source as well. John Carter 16:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I've also found a very long article about the subject on 'Jewsweek', found here, which provides evidence to the sincerity of Dylan's faith, and seems to argue against the speculation of his return to Judaism. There can be no claim to bias here, as it is, after all, a Jewish site. There is no real reason for an article on a Jewish website to argue for Dylan's continued Christian-ness as much as this site does... it even acts as an apologetic, reconciling Dylan's Jewishness and his Christianity. It tends to portray him as a 'Jewish Christian', and at one point claims that while his family remains Jewish, he is Christian, and the article continues to provide evidence for his Christian outlook- including several conversations with friends who criticized his newfound belief, including Joni Mitchell. (It seems the site is now having trouble loading... hopefully, by the time people read this later, it'll be working again.)This Google Cache link should work, if the site still doesn't. This site provides evidence that he was sincere in his belief, and as I'm sure you know, a Jewish site has no reason to provide such an argument for Dylan's sincerity if it isn't factual. --C.Logan 18:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
  • C.Logan -- Yes, I've read the article in "Jewsweek." There is absolutely no indication of conversion in it whatsoever. Would you care to post the except you find in it that indicates conversion on the part of Bob Dylan to Christianity? You will not find a shred of evidence for this, because it simply does not exist, not in this article, anyway. I am looking for evidence for conversion, not vague allusions to his embrace of the Christian life or any such meaningless gobbledygook. We are writing an encyclopedia. We don't put forth half truths as whole truths. I think you and several others should face the clearly emerging truth -- there is no evidence for conversion whatsoever. Conversion to Christianity is not tantamount to joining a street gang. It is not brought about by a wink, a handshake, and a swagger or any other signs and symbols you care to concoct. The Church is an institution. It has ways of accomplishing tasks. Dylan is a Jew. Stop pretending he converted to Christianity. That is advocacy. That is WP:SOAPBOX. By the way, your link to the New York Times article doesn't work. It only links back to Misplaced Pages. Bus stop 22:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Then please inform me what the governing body of this institution is. As we both know, there is none. Your whole argument falls apart on that basis. Without any such governing body, there is no one to enforce any sort of protocols. Also, I note from your own edits to the Talk:Bob Dylan page that one of the bases for your constant editing to these pages is, and I quote, once again, ""His Jewish heritage doesn't go out the window because he felt like exploring Christianity in 1979". On the basis of that and similar statements, I personally believe the one violating WP:SOAPBOX is yourself. You are free to file a formal WP:RFC for outside input in this matter. However, based on your own failure to provide any documentation for your own position, I believe that right now there is no alternative but to used the sourced information, and to not attempt any further to "qualify" it out of fear "his Jewish heritage out the window". John Carter 22:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Bus stop- Let's pretend for a second that you've somehow never heard of Protestantism. In case you've forgotten, it is technically the second largest division of Christians in the world. A very large portion of these adherents consider themselves non-denominational(i.e. believing in an essentially Protestant viewpoint, yet not claiming any particular division), and many of those who belong to the clear denominations within Protestantism have a much looser of theology and practice than your typical Roman Catholic. Not everybody believes in sacraments, you know.
Many of the Christians I know have never been baptized; they've never gone through any sort of formal ceremony to 'convert' to Christianity. Their belief and adherence to the faith is not questioned. Not all Christianity requires a formal conversion ceremony. Yet it seems that even though the Jewsweek article goes through the pains of including many views expressed by Dylan which quite clearly qualify him as a 'believer in Christ', this is insufficient for you. Never mind the fact that the article makes several references to suspicions of him 'leaving' Christianity.
How could a person leave a home if they never actually entered it? If baptism is walking through the front door, and simple belief is coming in through the window, you still end up inside the house.
Lets take a look at excerpts from the article:


And in one of the most telling statements to his public, he offered up this bitter pill to the folks in Omaha: "Years ago they used to say I was a prophet. I'd say, 'No, I'm not a prophet.' They'd say, 'Yes, you are a prophet.' 'No, it's not me.' They used to convince me I was a prophet. Now I come out and say, 'Jesus is the answer.' they say, 'Bob Dylan? He's no prophet.' They just can't handle that."
He was disarmingly honest with Hughes about his sense of God's call: "I guess He's always been calling me. Of course, how would I have ever known that, that it was Jesus calling me? I always thought it was some voice that would be more identifiable. But Christ is calling everybody, we just turn Him off. We just don't want to hear. We think He's gonna make our lives miserable, you know what I mean? We think He's gonna make us do things we don't want to do; or keep us from doing things we want to do. But God's got His own purpose and time for everything. He knew when I would respond to His call." Dylan was clearly embracing who he thought was the living God. "See, Christ is not some kind of figure down the road," he told Hughes. "We serve the living God, not dead monuments, dead ideas, dead philosophies. f he had been a dead God, you'd be carrying around a corpse inside you."
And unlike the previous year, Dylan granted interviews, so the press even received some salve for any wounds that might have occurred. But there was this exchange when Dylan was interviewed by Paul Vincent of KMEL-radio, which showed that his beliefs remained intact:
Vincent: Some critics have not been kind as a result of the past two albums, because of the religious content. Does that surprise you? ... For example, they said you're proselytizing. Is Jesus Christ the answer for all of us in your mind?
Dylan: Yeah, I would say that. What we're talking about is the nature of God, and I think you have to, in order to go to God, you have to go through Jesus. You have to understand that. You have to have an experience with that.
Dylan's response indicated that he didn't think overt statements were still necessary; his beliefs were his beliefs, and the season of his articulating them to the public was drawing to an end:
"It's in my system. I don't really have enough time to talk about it. If someone really wants to know, I can explain it to them, but there are other people who can do it just as well. I don't feel compelled to do it. I was doing a bit of that last year on the stage. I was saying stuff I figured people needed to know. I thought I was giving people an idea of what was behind the songs. I don't think it's necessary anymore. When I walk around some of the towns we go to, however, I'm totally convinced people need Jesus. Look at the junkies and the winos and the troubled people. It's all a sickness which can be healed in an instant. The powers that be won't let that happen. The powers that be say it has to be healed politically."
Dylan: Most people think that if God became a man, He would go up on a mountain and raise His sword and show His anger and wrath, or His love and compassion with one blow. And that's what people expected the Messiah to be -- someone with similar characteristics, someone to set things straight, and here comes a Messiah who doesn't measure up to those characteristics and causes a lot of problems.
Dylan may not have perceived a conflicting message between his Jewish heritage and his belief in Jesus, but Harvey Brooks, who toured with Dylan in 1965, and helped record Highway 61 Revisited (1965) and New Morning (1970), was living in Atlanta in 1981, and was clearly struggling with his old friend's new ways: "I was a studio manager and producer in Atlanta, and he came to tour . He had just converted to Christianity, and I called up and got passes for the show, but to be honest, I had problems with his confusion and I just couldn't bring myself to go. It led to my own confusion."
Bryan Styble, editor and publisher of Talkin' Bob Zimmerman Blues (the first Dylan fanzine in the U.S.) offered up his perspective on the situation: "Some people have found it odd that Dylan maintains his contacts with Judaism as a Christian. Actually, this has been quite natural. His ex-wife Sara and five children are observant Jews, and Dylan has always valued his close family ties."
Three years earlier, during the gospel tours, Dylan made some similar (seemingly flippant) remarks about the physical structure of a church during an onstage rap in Buffalo, New York:
"As I was walking around today I noticed many tall steeples and big churches and stained glass windows. Let me tell you once again: God's not necessarily found in there. You can't get converted in no steeple or stained glass window. Well, Jesus is mighty to save, if He's in your heart, He'll convert you."
Even Mitch Glaser, the man who distributed gospel tracts for Jews for Jesus at Dylan's 1979 shows in San Francisco, wasn't disturbed by Dylan's presence at such a special event: "Well, first of all, the fact that he attended, or paid for, or encouraged his son's bar mitzvah, this would be normal for a Jewish dad. The fact is, there's a real bad presumption in all this: and that is that when you become a believer in Jesus, you don't have a bar mitzvah. And that is really, for the most part, false. I mean, I had a bat mitzvah for my daughters, and I would say lots of Messianic Jews have bar mitzvahs for their kids. And so that's not disturbing at all."
Although Dylan acknowledged that the season of his preaching had passed, he obviously didn't have any qualms about the message he communicated in 1979-1980. "I don't particularly regret telling people how to get their souls saved. I don't particularly regret any of that. Whoever was supposed to pick it up, picked it up."
Within a few months of the Christianity Today article (which featured the aforementioned quotes from Rabbi Kasriel Kastel of Chabad and Paul Emond of the Vineyard), Dylan sat in a cafe in New York City and chatted with Kurt Loder for an interview.
Loder: You're a literal believer of the Bible?
Dylan: Yeah. Sure, yeah. I am.
Loder: Are the Old and New Testaments equally valid?
Dylan: To me.
After asking if he belonged to any church or synagogue ("not really" was the answer) and finding out that Dylan believed the end of the world would be at least another 200 years, Loder still wanted more theological meat.
Loder: When you meet up with Orthodox people, can you sit down with them and say, 'Well, you should really check out Christianity'?
Dylan: Well, yeah, if somebody asks me, I'll tell 'em. But, you know, I'm not gonna just offer my opinion. I'm more about playing music, you know?
Some may view Keohane's interpretation as a bit of a stretch, but Dylan's response to an interviewer's question, in 1984, to whether he believed in evil seemed to bring it right back home.
"Sure, I believe in it. I believe that ever since Adam and Eve got thrown out of the garden, that the whole nature of the planet has been heading in one direction -- towards apocalypse. It's all there in the book of Revelation, but it's difficult talking about these things to most people because most people don't know what you're talking about, or don't want to listen."


Many of these either contain Dylan stating a belief which is explicitly Christian, or are essentially acknowledgments of some sort of conversion, if only by change of belief.
Let's take two quotes from Dylan from the above excerpts...:

"Well, Jesus is mighty to save, if He's in your heart, He'll convert you."

"What we're talking about is the nature of God, and I think you have to, in order to go to God, you have to go through Jesus."

What does the Central Conference of American Rabbis have to say about this kind of thing?:

For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief has placed self outside the Jewish community. Whether cares to define herself as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, is clearly a Christian."

That's funny. I was thinking the same thing. --C.Logan 01:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that the actions of at least one side in this party are getting rather out of hand. Specifically, around half an hour after I posted information indicating that the church to which Dylan is referenced in sources to have become involved with does not have a policy of keeping records of membership or even baptisms on one of the two threads here, that party posted on the other thread a comment to the effect that what he sought was evidence of a baptism, perhaps in the form of a baptismal record. I repeat, this is half an hour after I had posted a reference to one of our own articles to the effect that this body does not keep such records. Also, he seems to believe that the number of speeches Dylan, whom he apparently sees as being purely a Jew, could deliver enough speeches on Jesus from stage to be collected into a stand-alone book as being adopting a musical persona. Lastly, he also disputes the clear language of many of the sources, many of which have even stricter "libel" and such policies than we do, as not being enough evidence to keep us from being considered for libel for simply repeating and/or referencing published statements from these other entities with generally stricter policies on unsubstantiated material. Lastly, he has demonstrated a rather interesting command of the facts of this discussion.

I should make it clear that my own interest in this discussion is in trying to ensure that we do not now have placed on us such absurdly difficult standards of proof, generally beyond those that the majority of other, often publicly more reliable, sources of information have in place, that it would be all but impossible to have any content relating to living persons. Personally, I regret to say that I have no particular fondness for Mr. Dylan, and didn't even know about articles like this one until I got a message about this discussion on my talk page. Having seen the discussion, I do think that there are a few relevant issues involved which could and should be addressed. These include whether a apparently only three or so year conversion (I would still like to see evidence of a reconversion; I don't think I have) would qualify someone for unqualified inclusion on this list. I have also raised earlier what I think is the reasonable question as to whether we might have separate content on reverts or people who have engaged in multiple conversions. I am happy to see that some of these matters have been addressed earlier today. However, so far as I can see, the other party in this discussion is only interested in the unqualified, absolute removal of this content in its entirety, for what are pretty much, at least in my eyes, poor reasoning.
Returning to the point, I notice that the other editor had identified earlier another "convert" who engaged in what may have been more activity demonstrating his conversion than simply annoying his audience with Jesus lectures, which seems to have been the sum of Dylan's activity. Again, this party appears to think that it is reasonable to think a Jew would preach about Jesus from the stage to his audience as part of a "stage persona." Right. Anyway, this other party he had mentioned on the Bob Dylan talk page, Keith Green, was also a convert to the Association of Vineyard Churches, the entity which is described as being involved in Dylan's own conversion. If the other party knew of Dylan's own involvement with this body, then he would also know that they do not keep the sort of records that he has been demanding. On that basis, I regret to say that, as an individual, I am beginning to find it increasingly difficult to unreservedly assume good faith on this party's behalf. John Carter 23:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Request for comment

There has been discussion at both this page and Talk:Bob Dylan for some time now, as evidenced by the discussion above and there, whether or not the published sources which have been cited on both pages are sufficient to describe and/or categorize the subject, Bob Dylan, as a Christian convert. John Carter 23:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. It should be noted that the person who has instigated this discussion is currently blocked for violation of WP:3RR regarding this article. It is therefore unlikely that s/he shall be posting any comments here anytime soon. John Carter 15:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Having followed this debate, and now having read this discussion on both pages, here and Talk:Bob Dylan, I tend to agree with User: Bus stop. I'm hesitant however to further speculate about another person's religion. I think that is a private and personal issue, no matter how famous, or important or popular the person is. I think this list should be deleted. Modernist 01:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The dictionary defines religious conversion as: "a change from one religion, belief or viewpoint to another". Dylan was raised to disbelieve the tenets of Christianity as expressed in the New Testament, then by his own description he changed his belief system to include them. This seems to me to satisfy the dictionary's definition of a religious conversion. -Scott P. 01:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Scott P. -- You say that: "Dylan was raised to disbelieve the tenets of Christianity as expressed in the New Testament." Do you know that for a fact? Do you know that, "Dylan was raised to disbelieve the tenets of Christianity as expressed in the New Testament?" Do you have a source for that? Bus stop 13:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
He was raised as a Jew. -Scott P. 14:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree fully. --C.Logan 01:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Respectfully I disagree. While Dylan's brilliance is undeniable, even early on he regards religious thinking in a song like "With God On My Side". I think speculation as to his actual notion of belief and disbelief and whether or not he has changed his belief system goes too far. Clearly he is a thoughtful, spiritually conscious artist/poet/musician/ who articulates deeply felt human conditions and convictions. As an artist he seems to change according to his ever turning inner force in defiance of all labels and categories, he has his own roadmap. I don't understand why this debate even exists. Modernist 02:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Modernist. Labeling him is as a "convert" goes too far given the sources available. There are too many sweeping implications connected to use of the word conversion. The issue is a controversial one and Misplaced Pages must heir on the side of caution as this is a biography of a living person. Cleo123 04:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe that Wiki is designed to either redefine the dictionary definition of the word "conversion" or to deny Dylan's own claim that he had converted (changed from being a Jew to being a "born-again Christian"). -Scott P. 05:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I hope this argument doesn't continue forever. From what I've read, his baptism is described in the book "Bob Dylan: Behind the Shades", by Clinton Heylin. Obviously, I'll see if the book's available at the local bookstore. His conversion is also described in the book "Wanted Man: In Search of Bob Dylan". If these sources are still insuffiecient, and if this ends up going on much longer, why can't we just do something like this:
Bob Dylan - popular musician (has professed some Christian beliefs; whether or not there was an actual conversion is disputed)
Wow! Problem solved? Hopefully these eleven words will save us hundreds in the long run.--C.Logan 05:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The remedy to a problem is to avoid the problem in those instances in which that is possible. We are not talking about a note next to Bob Dylan's name saying (inventor of the 7 string guitar) or (first person to identify the malady of subteranean homesick blues). Removal from the list is the remedy for the problem that no evidence for conversion can be found. Why would Misplaced Pages put a name on such a list if there may not have been "actual conversion?" Isn't this just advocacy? Misplaced Pages has a prohibition on advocacy. It is called WP:NOT#SOAPBOX. I find advocacy and proselytizing very similar concepts. Misplaced Pages defines advocacy, in part, as arguing on behalf of a particular idea. Is it a good faith edit to put someone on a list, and append a note saying that they may not have actually converted? Isn't that advocacy for a cause, in this case Christianity? A good faith edit, I should think, would involve removing Dylan's name, at least provisionally, until this issue gets ironed out. But I see that I am up against some stiff opposition. Despite the lack of evidence that any conversion took place, editors are adamantly refusing to even provisionally remove Bob Dylan's name from the list until some clarity can be achieved. I'm saddened by this. I know I've made some valid points. Yet I'm blocked by a multitude. Bus stop 12:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Bus Stop, I don't understand why you seem to be in a state of denial about the statements of Dylan himself, as well as the reams of published statements of others about Dylan's Christian beliefs as mentioned above. It floors me how after all of this you somehow still remain convinced that "no evidence for conversion can be found". I concur with C. Logan's suggestion. Simplify into eleven word statement as suggested. This seems to me to be an accurate and concise statement of the case. Misplaced Pages is not set up to judge things like this, only to fairly report both sides of such unresolved things. If Dylan wants to proclaim that he has some Christian beliefs, we are not here to editorialize that he must be insincere, only to report on the fact that he has publicly avowed that he holds some Christian beliefs. -Scott P. 13:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


(unindent) There is a serious problem with insisting that the standards for inclusion being sought here are made universal. I will try to present the evidence for such as follows.

  • According to Demographics of the United States, in 2001 7.2% of the US population identified themselves as Christian without reporting a specific denomination, 2.4% identified themselves as Protestant without reporting a denomination, 2.2% identified themselves as Pentecostal/Charismatic, 0.5% as Evangelical, and 1.9% identified themselves as "Other Christian". This adds up to roughly 15% of the American population which self-identifies itself as "Chirstian", or roughly 1 out of 7 self-identified Christians. Based on my own (admittedly limited) knowledge of all these groupings, several of them do not have any of the telltale "identifiers" (or at least do not require them) that are being sought here. This may include, for all I know, several televangelists and others. So, based on the criteria which are being sought here, we could presumably have a case here where several televangelists who might be preaching Jesus on a weekly basis could not qualify as Christians according to the definition which people are seeking to impose here. To my eyes, that is irrational and counterproductive. I should also mention that several of the other churches require some sort of preparation period be completed before baptism for adults, Roman Catholicism (roughly 25% of the self-identified Christian population) among them, and so it could very easily, and presumably often is, the case that a someone who has recently converted to that faith cannot demonstrate having received baptism or some other similar public display of his religious beliefs because they haven't been through them yet. It is also possible that someone could spend several years before finding the "right" church to be baptized by. Such a person would clearly be a Christian, if he were in fact trying to find a church to which to "belong", even if at that time he had not yet found the church he believed in.
  • (2) I acknowledge the possibility that Dylan may have been adapting a "persona" for the two albums in question. If that were the case, I would like to see some evidence to support that contention, which would preferably include a quote or paraphrased statement from the subject in question. None has been provided. Therefore, on the basis of basically extending the principle of Assume good faith to such generally creditable publications as the New York Times, we would have to take their published statements, which have not yet demonstrably been contradicted or questioned with any supporing evidence presented by anyone in any media, as being at least accurate. We would also hopefully remember that the "arts" section of all print media is heavily reliant upon the cooperation of the subjects to actually get articles, including interviews, published in the future, and generally ensures that any subject of an article describing a potential future interview candidate is in fact reviewed by the agent or other publicity people working with the subject for inaccuracies before publication. Not doing so and publishing the content which the subject later disagrees with is, of course, the best way to ensure that the subject never speaks to that particular publication again.
  • (3) The most telling evidence to my eyes is the collection of "sermonetttes" Dylan delivered from stage which have been collected into book form. There is frankly no way to defend those speeches as being adapting a persona for musical purposes, because performance of music cannot in any way, shape or form be said to require delivering speeches talking about Jesus from stage. On the basis of that book of Dylan's speeches, which I have to believe had to be published with his consent (I would welcome direct evidence to the contrary, of course), I think it is reasonable to assume that Dylan at the very least does not object to, and seemingly is at least passively encouraging, or at least permitting, himself to be identified as a Christian. Now, I am aware of one, and I can think of only one, instance in which a person has willfully, falsely, described himself as being something he clearly and obviously is not, and that one is fictional. The X-Men character Beast, who for some time self-identified himself to the public as gay, and appeared in several magazines where he identified himself as such. Several of his teammates, including a mind-reader, told him that statement was a flat lie, and he privately acknowledged it. I acknowledge that in this case we are talking about a fictional character, but it is certainly possible that such a situation might arise in the real world. Were it to arise, I believe that we would have to take the public statements of the subject as being authoritative, and on that basis we would probably describe such a living subject as gay, even if that were, as in this case, factually inaccurate. Now, with this idea in hand, it is frankly all but impossible to say that we in wikipedia can identify anyone living or dead by any characteristics other than height, weight, skin and hair color, and the other objectively verifiable criteria available. After all, even if a person were to appear to convert to one religion or other system of belief (political affiliation, support for a charity, philosophical inclination, etc., etc., etc.) it could be argued that the person was potentially only doing so for the sake of publicity. This is bordering on paranoia. We might as well say, as Capricorn One did, that no one can prove NASA ever landed anyone on the moon.
  • The simple fact of the matter, to my eyes, is that, for no reason which can be defended as assuming a persona for musical purposes, Dylan went out of his way to deliver a number of speeches from stage to audiences which had presumably come to hear him sing, as he was evidently not noted for such attempts from evanglization from stage before. (If anyone can prove he had done such before his "Christian" albums, I would welcome being presented with the evidence). On the basis of those sermonettes, there is reason to believe the Jewish community itself would now identify him as a Christian. When such public idenitification is at least possible, and even presumed, and the subject has made no effort to specifically and pointedly refute it, I cannot believe that there is a good reason not to observe what would be the reasonable conclusion that the subject is in fact what he is clearly presenting himself to be.
  • I would gladly welcome any direct response to any of the points made above, citing sources for any statements to the contrary made. John Carter 14:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
P.S.: It has been noted on the Talk:Bob Dylan page that Dylan was associated with the Vineyard movement. According to our own article on this subject, and I quote from the "Membership" section of that article, "Many Vineyard churches have no official membership procedures or membership records, and such a policy is not dictated by the national Vineyard church." It is at best nonsensical, therefore, to demand official records from a group with does not maintain them in the first place. John Carter 18:09, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The question is not really whether he converted or not in the opinion of the editor, but that verifiable and reliable sources reported that he did. I found a source who did, and in fact, characterized his conversion as "much-publicized" in 1981 and added it to the article. In order to move the discussion forward, an editor has to cite a verifiable and reliable source denying that he converted, more to the point denying that it was written that he converted. One hopes it will not be a mere denial but with something which can refute the evidence already presented. patsw 19:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

  • patsw -- Absolutely incorrect. A source has to be found for conversion, or placement on the List of converts to Christianity is a total abuse of the truthfulness expected of Misplaced Pages. We are not talking about, for instance, the Bob Dylan article. That is an article that can and should present more than one understanding of this. But a much higher standard should be required for inclusion on a list such as List of converts to Christianity. There is no allowance for shades of meaning as concerns a list. If a name is on that list it should be a person who has been verified to have converted. Bus stop 20:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
And the sources have been found, and you have been, and are continuing to, say that for whatever reason you do not find them sufficient. Out of curiousity, is your next effort in terms of wikipedia to have a printed record of the birth certificate of every living person who has an article here shown to you before you will accept that their date of birth is accurate? John Carter 20:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Bus stop, really now, what part of "I found a source who did, and in fact, characterized his conversion as 'much-publicized' in 1981 and added it to the article." as I wrote above 30 mins. ago, was unclear? Here's my verifiable, reliable source from the article (and now in its talk page as well): patsw 20:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


Mr. Dylan showed that neither age (he's now 40) nor his much-publicized conversion to born-again Christianity has altered his essentially iconolastic temperament

Holden, Stephen (1981-10-29). "Rock: Dylan, in Jersey, Revises Old Standbys". New York Times. p. c19. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help): patsw 20:24, April 28, 2007

  • I found this on Bus Stop's User Talk Page:
Maybe this doesn't belong here, but I don't know where else to take this. The above user above has been blocked from editing three or four times now for three reversions of content on pages related to Bob Dylan, specifically regarding his conversion to Christianity in the late 1970's-early 1980's. Sources for that conversion include the Encyclopedia Britannica and New York Times and a published book of his own Christian statements from the stage. He cites "absence of a high profile publication is clear proof that no conversion took place." Evidently none of the above qualify, and in his eyes absence of evidence is clear prove nothing happened. User seeks to see some evidence of a formal sacramental initiation into Christianity, evidently not knowing or caring that several branches of Christianity do not use such practices, or perhaps believing that those Christians should not be classified as such. User has also questioned the good faith of editors seeking to insert such sourced material, using phrases such as "His Jewish heritage doesn't go out the window because he felt like exploring Christianity in 1979", Request user be blocked from editing the pages Bob Dylan, List of converts to Christianity, and List of Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians, as those three pages would seem to contain the only content which causes him to engage in these repeated reversions and other POV matters, that being questions about Dylan's conversion to some form of Christianity. User:Name removed by me 19:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Suggestion, stop wasting our energies arguing with someone who for whatever reason, appears to be in a state of extreme denial over this issue. Get him blocked again and again using the 3RR rule until he either provides sane supporting citations for his argument, or he tires of this. If he continues for a sixth block, get his user id permanently blocked. We do not have time for this. -Scott P. 21:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I find your remark to be shockingly improper and I have posted it to the community sanction discussion so that it can be reviewed by administrators. By my count their are an equal number of editors on each side of the fence here. I would suggest you stop attempting to target User:Bus stop just because you don't like his opinion. I, too, do not feel Dylan should be included on this list. Whether he did or did not "convert", "join" or "get involved" with Christianity for a brief period of time - he "returned" to Judiasm in the early 80's. To label a practicing Jew as a "convert to Christianity" is potentially libellous. According to WP:BIO, the questionable label must be removed. Cleo123 07:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I apologize if you might find the existence and application of the 3RR rule and the Ban Rules shocking. I, personally think they are good rules and that repeat violators of these rules deserve what they get. But that's just me. I do agree with you Cleo that perhaps this page would be more informative and helpful, and less offensive to some, if either:
  1. Beside each convert who was currently "lapsed", this article might make a note to this effect, or else if....
  2. This article simply did not list any "lapsed" converts.
  3. In either case, this article should clarify in its opening paragraph how it treats "lapsed" converts.
Otherwise it seems to me that this article might be seen by some to be a bit disingenuous. Cleo, could you document your assertion that Dylan no longer considers himself as a Christian? I find this information to be somewhat relevant to this discussion. -Scott P. 11:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Scott P. -- Cleo123 is correct in her assertion that Dylan no longer practices Christianity. He is a Jew. That is documented. It is ludicrous that a Jew who in point of fact does not practice Christianity is placed on a List of converts to Christianity, when it is just an incorrect statement. We should not be making incorrect statements. To do so in this instance is a violation of WP:NOT#SOAPBOX. We should not be advocating for Christianity here on Misplaced Pages. And inclusion of a Jew in a list of converts to Christianity is grossly misleading. Bus stop 12:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Bus Stop, if Dylan's conversion reversion is true, then I apologize for not understanding why this seemed so out of place for you. I take you at your word that the conversion reversion is documented, and accordingly I have placed a disclaimer in the intro to the page that I hop you will find satisfactory. Please see the discussion topic on the disclaimer that I have started below. Thanks Bus Stop, -Scott P. 14:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a list of people who converted to Christianity. It is not a page which attempts to determine the sincerity of the convert, or their current religious affiliation. This has never been the purpose of this page. It is a simple list of people who converted to Christianity at one point in their lives, regardless of what happened later on. This is not a List of practicing Christian converts.
  • Who says it's a page that is to include anyone who ever at any point in their life had any contact with Christianity? By the standards I see argued here, conversion is accomplished by anything imaginable. We've hear song lyrics cited as proof of conversion! But getting to my point, why would an individual be on such a list if they have no involvement in Christianity anymore? You mean to say that a living person is to be categorized a convert to Christianity in the present if in fact they may in fact actually practice a different religion? Is that what Misplaced Pages is supposed to be doing? Isn't that a bit misleading? Bus stop 12:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
What method did you use to count who's on who's side? After reviewing the continuing discussion on the talk pages for Bob Dylan, List of converts to Christianity and Bus stop's own user page, and I seem to count at least one argument in favor of inclusion from me (obviously), patsw, Mick Gold (who is currently working alongside me to provide published source material), Matt57, John Carter, Scott P, JJay, Walkerma, Tix, SECProto, and Arrow740... 11. Those opposed include Bus stop, you, Modernist, Tvoz, EdJohnston, Tomer, and Reaper X... 7. Did I miss anyone?
Please have a look at the published sources which have been added onto this page and on the Bob Dylan page. It is very explicit about the matter of conversion. I hope to add more tomorrow, if time permits.--C.Logan 08:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


  • patsw -- There are differences between lists and articles. Certainly articles require sources, as we all know. But lists require a higher lever of verifiability, due to the "black and white" nature of a list. Yes, I agree, you have cited a source, above, which refers to a conversion of Dylan. Therefore, it is justified to refer to Dylan's conversion in the Bob Dylan article. But it, in and of itself, may not provide enough verification to justify inclusion of Dylan in the List of converts to Christianity. Oftentimes words are used loosely. This is common knowledge. Certainly a writer in even the New York Times can casually refer to the point in time when Dylan was "born again." Or, he might even refer to his "conversion." Words are often used figuratively. This is common knowledge. A list implies literal fact. That is the implication of a list. Why is that the implication in a list? I will tell you. It is implied in the "either/or" nature of a list. We have not found real, actual, literal, information focusing specifically on a conversion process. Oh yes, we've had about a dozen concocted reasons advanced by various editors as "proof" for conversion. But really we have heard nothing. The Church is an institution. It is a religious institution. Conversion is a process. There are standards for transition through that process. Now, I know I have heard the argument advanced that some denominations do not have any conversion process to speak of. I can't really address that. We all have to accept what we don't know. But Misplaced Pages has to require verifiability for inclusion on the list we are talking about. Otherwise it is open to abuse, and error. That is why I say, it is my feeling, that since this search process, lasting several days, has not turned up a source for actual, concrete, real conversion, that Dylan should not be on the list. We do not make assumptions. It is not only I who must accept the shortcomings of my knowledge. I think the supporters of the inclusion of Dylan on the list also have to accept the shortcomings of their knowledge. I think they have to admit that they don't know. They should not be bullishly pushing for a point that they really do not know is true. And that is the nature of a list: if a name is on a list, it should have been vetted carefully first to be sure that it really belongs on that list. What we have discovered, so far anyway, is that we really don't know if Dylan converted or not. Let us all stop pretending we know. And since we don't know, that argues for leaving him off the list. Bus stop 21:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Bus Stop, you seem to have some sort of a personal vested interest in this question that may be clouding your reasoning. I don't know what that interest is, and I don't really want to know. Please let go of this so we can all move on to spend our time more constructively. Scott P. 21:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Scott P. -- You know what? I've become super distrustful in the past several days. I've been involved in arguments before, but you guys really play hardball. I have no doubt that any infraction I commit several of you will report me immediately. I don't like that atmosphere. I am here for intellectual pursuit. I am not arguing that Dylan should not be on the List of converts to Christianity because I enjoy doing so. I am presenting what I believe is the most intellectually honest position to take on the matter. Don't tell me I have a "vested interest." My vested interest is just intellectual perfection. That's what I aim for. Whether I achieve it or not is a separate question. I thought we are supposed to be assuming good faith? What kind of "vested interest" do you think I have? Do you think I own stock in Dylan's new vacation resort? Give me a break. Bus stop 22:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
The Misplaced Pages is not about what we know:
  • There is no "we". There are only editors, and conflict among editors is common so the Misplaced Pages has many processes for dealing with that.
  • There is no "know". There are only verifiable, reliable sources which are compiled and edited for readability.
  • This discussion moves forward only if there is a verifiable, reliable source denying that Dylan converted in 1981, and one produces it. patsw 22:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, this discussion moves forward only if there is a new verifiable, reliable source denying that Dylan converted in 1981, and someone produces it. -Scott P. 23:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Dylan did convert to Christianity. He may no longer be a convert, but he does belong on this list. The article itself should contain adequate detail of his public statements about his religious changes. The wording at the top of the list is clear enough:
The following is a list of people who have at one time converted to Christianity from non-Christian religions. Important note: This list is known to include some individuals whose initial conversion experience may have since lapsed or reverted. Inclusion on this list is not an assertion that an individual is currently a practicing Christian.
--Tony Sidaway 23:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • He is not a Christian, therefore he is not a "convert to Christianity." The parameters of the list are wrong, and I'm not going to start altering them, because someone is going to report me for some technical infraction if I try to do so. Bus stop 23:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Why do you now believe that you can dictate what parameters the list uses, when it has always used these parameters? The disclaimer makes it clearer than ever. It should probably be bolded, or formatted in a way which grabs the reader's attention. The list should still have notes on each listing if that particular person is no longer a Christian, but their conversion is still notable. If he is not a Christian now, that's splendid, but he- according to published sources- did convert in 1979, and as such, is a 'notable convert to Christianity'. You say the "parameters of the list are wrong". This is your opinion, and I'm not sure why you seem to think so. The parameters of the list are what they are. The title and the disclaimer make it quite clear to the reader what criterion is used in decided who will be listed here. --C.Logan 23:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Published sources for Dylan's conversion, with more to come.

Given the endless nature of this argument, I decided to get a little proactive about the sources. I looked up a few of the Bob Dylan biographies, and sought them out at the local bookstore. This particular bookstore only had two typical biographies, so I decided to work from them. Here are two very clear secondary sources which mention Bob's baptism/conversion. I hope this resolves the issue of sources so that I can waste my time on a video game or with my oft-ignored art projects.

This is copied verbatim (excuse any typos) from the books, and as it's for encyclopedia use, I hope the publisher doesn't mind me printing this long excerpt here.

This first section is from Howard Sounes' book, 'Down the Highway: The Life of Bob Dylan', pages 324-326:

There were signs during the latter stages of the 1978 tour that Bob had become caught up in this enthusiasm for Jesus Christ. Bob met his old college friend Dave Whitaker after a concert in Oakland, California, in mid-November, and spoke to Dave's eleven-year-old son, Ubi. "Would you send me a guitar?" asked the kid. The next day a truck pulled up with a gift from Dylan- a brand-new Fender Stratocaster decorated with quotations from the Book of Paul. A few days later Bob played a show in San Diego. He picked up a cross that a fan had thrown on stage and started wearing it. Shortly after this incident Bob felt what he later described as "this vision and feeling," which he believed to be the presence of Jesus Christ in the room. Billy Cross was sitting next to Bob on the bus when he looked over and noticed that Bob seemed to be writing a spiritual song- "Slow Train Coming"- the lyrics of which were only partly formed at this time but which described a resurgence of faith of God. The band played the song at a sound check in Nashville on December 2.
The catalyst to Bob's extraordinary full-blown conversion to Christianity seems to have been his relationship with sometime girlfriend Mary Alice Artes, although his relationship with Carolyn Dennis also focused his mind on the subject. Artes was linked with the Vineyard Fellowship, a small but growing evangelical church in the San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles. The Fellowship was founded in 1974 by Kenn GUlliksen, a singing pastor with a Lutheran background. "I did an album of my own and had a number-one song in the Christian world," he says. "It sounded like The Carpenters, it was so boring." Popular music was used to enliven services at the Fellowship, with people encouraged to get up and play songs. Several well-known musicians were associated with the Vineyard Fellowship, including a member of The Eagles. Church meetings were informal and Pastor Kenn often dressed in shorts. Because the Fellowship did not have a dedicated church building, they would lease buildings or meet on the beach. Ideologically, the Vineyard Fellowship was Bible-based, taking a fairly strong line on drugs, excessive drinking, and adultery.
Pastor Kenn says Mary Alice Artes approached him one Sunday in January 1979 after a service in a rented church building in Reseda and said she wanted somebody to speak with her boyfriend at home. Two of Pastor Kenn's colleagues, Paul Edmond and Larry Myers, duly went with Artes to an apartment in the West Los Angeles suburb of Brentwood. It was here that they met Bob. According to Pastor Kenn, who received a report back, Bob told them his life was empty. The pastors replied that God was the "only ultimate success" and Bob indicated that he wanted what Pastor Kenn calls a "lifestyle relationship" with God. "He was apparently ready to ask for God's forgiveness for sin," says Pastor Kenn. Larry Myers spoke to Bob about Jesus Christ, and talked about the Bible, from Genesis through to the Revelation of St. John the Divine. "Sometime in the next few days, privately and on his own, Bob accepted Christ and believed that Jesus Christ is indeed the Messiah," says Myers.
Bob later said that Mary Alice Artes was instrumental in his conversion. But she resists suggestions that any one person was responsible. "I cannot lead anyone to the Lord... I could only say that God did what he had to do," she says. "I think that too many people wanna be glorifying themselves in a situation that really should not have any glory at all."
Bob and Mary Alice enrolled in the Vineyard Fellowship's School of Discipleship, attending Bible class most weekday mornings for more than three months at the beginning of 1979. At first Bob thought there was no way that he could devote so much time to the project; he felt he had to get back on the road. Soon, though, he found himself awake at 7 A.M., compelled to get up and drive to the real estate office in Reseda where Bible classes were held. "I couldn't believe I was there," he said.
Assistant Pastor Bill Dwyer, who taught a class on the Sermon on the Mount, recalls Bob as being withdrawn in Bible class and also when he made rare appearances at church. "He probably needs to be," says Pastor Bill. "The few times he would into church people would glom onto him: Oh, it's Bob Dylan!" Indeed, Pastor Bill, who had all Bob's albums, had to restrain himself from doing the same.
It was during this late winter/spring period of 1979 that Mary Alice Ares was baptized in a swimming pool at Pastor Bill's house.
"This was total immersion. Because baptism is a symbol of burial, burying guilt, and then pulling the new man out of the water," says Pastor Kenn. Bob attended the baptism and, not long afterward, Bob was himself baptized, probably in the ocean, which was where the fellowship normally conducted baptisms. By being immersed in water, Bob became, in common parlance, a born-again Christian, though he would later shrink from the term, claiming he had never used it. Yet he was clearly quoted in a 1980 interview with trusted Los Angeles Times journalist Robert Hilburn saying: "I truly has a born-again experience, if you want to call it that. It's an overused term, but it's something that people can relate to."
An element of religiosity had always existed in Bob's work, and it was particularly strong on the album John Wesley Harding. Religion had in fact been with him since childhood when his father instilled a strict moral code in his eldest son and sent him to study with a rabbi for his bar mitzvah. As a songwriter, Bob had always felt himself to be a channel for inspiration. At the start of his career, he told Sing Out! that words just came to him: "The songs are there. They exist all by themselves just waiting for someone to write them down." In this sense, he had a powerful everyday connection with a mysterious source of information and, over the years, he came to think that the songs arose from God. It was a small step, apparently, from this to flinging himself headfirst into orthodox religion. Yet Bob of course was born and raised in the Jewish faith, and it is fundamentally wrong to most Jews to think of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. "For a person to be a 'completed Jew' is very offensive to them," admits Pastor Kenn. "They think that is an oxymoron, where as I see it, Christians see it, and Jewish Christians see it at the ." Indeed, Bob's embracing of Christianity caused consternation, and some offense, among his Jewish friends and family. "I think it was for publicity, that's what I think. Because he is Jewish-minded, plenty Jewish-minded. He was brought up that way. He was bar mitzvahed," says Bob's aunt, Ethel Crystal.
Bob's conversion to Christianity also caused considerable upset to his own children, who had been raised in the Jewish faith. Suddenly, packs of journalists were following their father to the Vineyard Fellowship in the hope of getting pictures of him going to a Christian church, and then staking out his home. The children saw this commotion when they visited their father. It was embarrassing and one of the few times when his celebrity was a problem in their lives.

The second except from Sounes' book is from page 356:

In the fall of 1983, Bob's seventeen-year-old son Jesse had a belated bar mitzvah in Jerusalem- Jakob and Samuel had already been bar mitzvahed in California- and Bob was photographed wearing a yarmulke at the Wailing Wall, adding to speculation that he had returned to Judaism. "As far as we're concerned, he was a confused Jew," Rabbi Kasriel Kastel told Christianity Today. "We feel he's coming back." In fact, Jesse was on vacation in Israel with his grandmother, Beatty, when they discovered a bar mitzvah could be conducted quickly and easily at the Wailing Wall and Bob simply flew in to play his part. He still believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and kept a broadly Christian outlook, although he had not maintained regular contact with the Vineyard Fellowship since the early flush of his conversion.

The second book is called 'The Rough Guide to Bob Dylan' by Nigel Williamson (2nd edition). This excerpt is broken into 3 sections, as one is from the main body of text, and the other two are from sidebars. All is taken from pages 112-113:


'Jewish roots' sidebar
Prior to his Christian conversion, Dylan had shown some interest in getting back in touch with his Jewish roots. After his father's funeral in June 1968, he confessed to Harold Leventhal, Woody Guthrie's former manager, that he had never really known the man who was Abe Zimmerman. Leventhal's response was to urge Dylan to get back in touch with his Jewish faith. Over the next few years he read widely around the subject and held talks with Rabbi Meir Kahane, a founder of the Jewish Defense League.
He visited the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem on his birthday in May 1971. Time magazine reported that he was considering changing his name back to Zimmerman. Dylan dismissed such reports as "pure journalese". But he did consider the possibility of taking his family to live on a kibbutz. Bruce Dorfman, the painter who was his neighbor in Woodstock, reported that when he returned from Israel he was seriously considering become a Hasid. Instead, by the end of the decade he had become a born-again Christian.
His conversion caused offence to members of his family and is Jewish friends. "I think it was for publicity, that's what I think," said his aunt Ethel Crystal. "He is Jewish-minded, plenty Jewish-minded, he was brought up that way. He was bar mitzvahed." And, despite his Christian conversion, his children all had bar mitzvahs and he attended the ceremonies on each occasion. When he encountered Leventhal at a party in Hollywood in 1980, his old friend confronted him and demanded, "What have you got that cross dangling around you for?"
In 1982, there were strong rumours that he was again exploring his Jewish heritage, sparked by a picture of him wearing a yarmulke at the bar mitzvah of his son Jesse in Jerusalem. The following year there were further stories that he had been spending time with an ultra-orthodox sect called the Lubavitchers and even that he had recorded an album of Hasidic songs. Dylan kept silent, which only encouraged the rumours.
By 1986, Allen Ginsberg was claiming that Dylan had reverted back to "his natural Judaism". Dylan appeared with his son-in-law Peter Himmelman (husband of his step-daughter Maria) at the annual Jewish Chabad telethon in Los Angeles in November 1989 wearing a yarmulke and singing "Hava Nagila". But ultimately, the importance of his Jewish roots appears to have been cultural rather than religious.


'The Vineyard Fellowship' sidebar
The Vineyard Fellowship, to which Dylan's girlfriend Mary Alice Artes introduced him in late 1978, was a small evangelical church that peddled a New Age, born-again version of Christianity. It had been found in Los Angeles in 1974 by Ken Gulliksen, who had previous been a singer on the Christian Music circuit. The church's style was informal. Gulliksen took services dressed in his shorts and counted a number of LA musicians among his congregation, including T-Bone Burnett, Steven Soles and David Mansfield, all of whom had played on Dylan's Rolling Thunder Tour.


Body Text
In January 1979, one of Dylan's girlfriends, Mary Alice Artes, approached Pastor Kenn Gulliksen of an evangelical church called the Vineyard Fellowship in the San Fernando Valley and told him that he wanted someone to speak to her boyfriend. Gulliksen sent two colleagues, Paul Esmond and Larry Myers, to meet Dylan in the West LA suburb of Brentwood. Within days he had signed up with the Fellowship. Sometime in the coming weeks, he was baptized and he and Artes commenced a three-month series of bible classes at the School of Discipleship.

Hopefully, these sources will come in handy for both the Bob Dylan and the List of converts to Christianity articles.

I'll have to a few other bookstores tomorrow and see if any other useful books can be found. If this is useful to any of you, I have the ISBNs.

'Down the Highway: The Life of Bob Dylan' by Howard Sounes. ISBN 0-8021-3891-8
'The Rough Guide to Bob Dylan' by Nigel Williamson, 2nd Edition. ISBN 1-84353-718-4

Hopefully, I'll provide more excerpts tomorrow. --C.Logan 01:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I thought you said that the discussion had ended. No? -Scott P. 04:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember saying that. Trust me, I wouldn't end a discussion if it's unresolved. Am I confused about what you're asking me? --C.Logan 05:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The text uses the word "probably" in relation to any Baptism of Dylan as concerns where the Baptism took place. It says "probably" in the ocean. We are talking here about someone making assumptions. This is clearly not someone who knows whether or not the act of Baptism took place. If the individual providing the account of Dylan's supposed Baptism had any real knowledge it is very reasonable to expect that they would know where it took place. Furthermore they don't know when it took place. The wording used says over the next few days. We are talking about assumptions complicated by assumptions. Without any real idea if any actual religious conversion took place, why are so many trying to assert that? Is that not pushing a personal agenda? Why is Dylan being put in the List of converts to Christianity as it is very clear that we in fact do not even know if he actually converted? A list is a black or white situation. These sorts of assumptions can find a balanced place in an article about Bob Dylan, but not in a list of converts to Christianity. A list of such converts is an either/or situation. The implication of inclusion on such a list is that the encyclopedia is sure that they belong there. No such surety exists in this instance. I feel that Dylan should be removed right now from that list. Bus stop 12:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • C.Logan -- Besides the fact that at best we have a "probably," for Baptism, we have the fact that he no longer practices Christianity, and probably practices, to some slight degree, his own religion, which is Judaism. I appreciate your efforts in typing all of the above, and I recognize your orientation to fairness. But given that Dylan doesn't practice Christianity, may not have even validly converted, and is a Jew, shouldn't he be removed immediately from the List of converts to Christianity? I would appreciate your response. Bus stop 13:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
This entire discussion is getting rather out of hand. It seems that you put more weight into your own argument than into the sources which have actually been presented. The above excerpts are from well known, published sources. Both sources clearly state that he had a conversion. It states that he had a baptism. The fact that the source has no confirmation on the location of baptism has no bearing to this argument. How hard is it to understand that you are the one who is taking undue meaning from the text. You seem to assume that "because the source is not sure where he was baptized, the source can't possibly know that he was baptized". This isn't true. You can know that something occurred and not know where it occurred. You can know that you're friends got married, but you might not know where they happened to get married. Does this have any effect on the fact that they were married? No, it doesn't. The source states that he was baptized. The 'probably' is in regards to location. --C.Logan 22:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I apologize if my most recent comments above and below seem rude. --C.Logan 22:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Rationale for insertion of disclaimer for lapsed converts in intro paragraph

Now that I know the full scope of the debate above, I have added the disclaimer regarding lapsed converts into the intro paragraph. As noted above, I feel that for clarity's and honesty's sake, it is the responsibility of the editors of this article to do one of the following:

  1. Keep the disclaimer in the intro paragraph.
  2. Remove the disclaimer in the intro paragraph, but methodically note next to each known documented lapsed convert the fact that he or she is currently a lapsed convert.
  3. Remove the disclaimer, but remove all known documented lapsed converts from the list.

Unless one of these three options is followed, then I would have to say that the editors of this page seem to me to be presenting some very incomplete and potentially misleading information to the public.

-Scott P. 14:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: alter the scope of this list

The wording at the top of the list now says: The following is a list of people who have at one time converted to Christianity from non-Christian religions. Important note: This list is known to include some individuals whose initial conversion experience may have since lapsed or reverted. I don't think this makes sense, because as we have seen in the instance of Bob Dylan, conversion is understood to be accomplished by virtually anything. It was asserted that Bob Dylan was a convert to Christianity because he gave spoken "sermonettes" from the stage between songs. It was asserted that Dylan's "conversion" transpired by way of producing his "Slow Train Coming" album. Obviously this is all absurd. By this reasoning anyone can be on this list. Editors have asserted that no conversion process at all is required by some denominations for conversion. So -- this list is ripe for abuse. It is very open to exploitation. Why should such a list include names of people who ever had any contact with Christianity? That is what has been clearly asserted: that any glancing contact with Christianity constitutes conversion. I think that makes little to no sense. If this list is to be a valid resource I think it's scope has to be altered. I think a more valid scope is a list that includes converts who actually continue to practice the religion. Can we have comment on this? Bus stop 14:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

In Dylan's case, he was apparently baptized. This seems to me to be a fairly significant initiation rite into Christianity. For others, it would seem to me that a simple duly documented statement that one considers ones self to have become a Christian should be enough. I do agree that the criteria for inclusion on this list should be listed in the intro paragraph. -Scott P. 14:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The assertion has been made that anything whatsoever constitutes "conversion" to Christianity. Therefore anyone with any glancing contact with Christianity at any point in their life is a candidate for inclusion in the List of converts to Christianity. We have heard that Dylan's described "experiences" of a spiritual nature in which imagery deriving from Christianity was used, constitute "conversion" to the religion. We have heard that Dylan's having a talk with a priest about Christianity constitutes conversion. Basically many editors have asserted that certain denominations require no defined entry point to Christianity at all. Clearly the parameters of this list need some serious redefining. Bus stop 14:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Dylan avowed his acceptance of the teachings of the New Testament. This seems to me to be more than mere contact, but rather an embracing of an entire belief system. Christianity is the belief system of the New Testament. -Scott P. 15:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • That is your interpretation, Scott P.. And we've also heard about a dozen other interpretations of what constitutes "conversion." The entire notion of putting people on this list who no longer practice Christianity sounds like a contrivance to me to increase the contents of the list. And as much as I would like to assume good faith I am not unaware of Christianity's propensity for proselytizing. It is a resource that is more open to advocating for Christianity than it need be. It goes beyond listing converts to Christianity. It is a compilation of anyone curious enough to explore Christianity in any way whatsoever. We've heard the wide array of explanations given here for what would qualify a person for inclusion on this list. It is simply untenable to maintain such a featureless and boundless set of criteria for "conversion" to Christianity, and therefore for inclusion on this list. And quite frankly, it is rife for abuse. WP:NOT#SOAP is applicable here. This list should be trimmed back to include only converts who still practice Christianity. That way at least current information can be brought to bear. Trying to reconstruct a glancing encounter with Christianity that occurred 25 years ago is a hopeless task. It is one thing to maintain a list of converts who presently display some endorsement of the religion of Christianity. I just find it a contrivance to expand that list to include anyone who ever investigated or explored it, especially given the argument that was prominently propounded here that many denominations of Christianity do not have any entry process whatsoever. If nothing constitutes conversion then we have no standards here. Bus stop 16:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Unlike Judaism, which I believe generally requires the performance of certain rituals for conversion, Christianity is generally not so formulaic. From the first disciples, who are not recorded as doing anything more than saying, "I believe," to the present, less stress has been placed on any kind of initiation rite. Islam is similar to Christianity in this way. According to the Koran, I believe that all that is required to convert to Islam is to profess three things verbally before witnesses. Things like I believe in one God Allah, that Allah has no helpers, and that Mohamed is his prophet. True, the Christian rite of Baptism is referenced in the Bible, but nowhere in the Bible does it state that baptism is mandatory for conversion. True, many churches do make baptism mandatory for inclusion in their membership roles, but many do not, and even the ones that do, still recognize those off of their membership roles who profess Christianity as Christians. In short, I think it is safe to say that Christianity generally takes an individual at his word. If an individual says "I believe" then generally he is believed. For Misplaced Pages to design and enforce stricter standards in this question than Christianity itself does, seems to me to be unrealistic and innacurate.
  • I think this list need not be pared down to contemporaries, as historical figures certainly are notable and worthy of tracking. It seems to me that the existence of a reasonably credible published account that an individual has "professed Christianity" and the absence of any published counterclaims ought to be sufficient for inclusion in this list. -Scott P. 18:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The title of the list contradicts what is on the list. Dylan is not a convert to Christianity. Even if we were to accept that he once converted to Christianity, for which there is the absence of evidence, he is certainly not "Christian" now. All arguments that have been presented thus far, by the editors arguing for the perpetuation of the status quo, rest on contradictions and inconsistencies. It is only by claiming that Christianity is almost meaningless that it can be claimed that anyone having any encounter with anything "Christian" is therefore a "Christian." That is inconsistent with the reality of Christianity, which I think has a good deal of meaning and definition. There is also, additionally, a contradiction between referring to someone as a convert to Christianity if in point of fact they are not even at present a Christian. Something is amiss. Perhaps someone can solve the problem by renaming the list. Bus stop 20:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Again, having an "encounter" and "professing to embrace a belief system" are two different things, at least in most people's minds. Placing the disclaimer in the intro seems to me like sufficient notice to the typical reader that the listed individuals may not be currently practicing Christians. Scott P. 20:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "Professing to embrace a belief system" constitutes conversion to you, Scott P., not to many others. Dylan can say anything he pleases, just about, without suddenly becoming a Christian. He can feel free to stand on the mountaintop and preach the best (Christian) sermon anyone has ever heard. But if that particular act is not the act or process required to accomplish conversion, then can we say he has converted? You and others have put forward a multiplicity of proofs, including the catch-all proof that nothing is required. That indicates that in your understanding conversion is a meaningless term. I don't accept that. Similarly, I don't accept that Dylan is a Christian. Yet the title of the list says, List of converts to Christianity. There is clearly a disconnect between the factuality that Dylan is not a Christian and the heading of the list indicating that it is a list of Christians. I think that contradiction needs to be addressed. Bus stop 22:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
This entire discussion is getting rather out of hand. It seems that you put more weight into your own argument than into the sources which have actually been presented. The above excerpts are from well known, published sources. Both sources clearly state that he had a conversion. It states that he had a baptism. The fact that the source has no confirmation on the location of baptism has no bearing to this argument. How hard is it to understand that you are the one who is taking undue meaning from the text. You seem to assume that "because the source is not sure where he was baptized, the source can't possibly know that he was baptized". This isn't true. You can know that something occurred and not know where it occurred. You can know that you're friends got married, but you might not know where they happened to get married. Does this have any effect on the fact that they were married? No, it doesn't. The source states that he was baptized. The 'probably' is in regards to location.
Bus stop, I have (at some level of frustration) been cooperative with you in finding new sources. I am not sitting here and asking you to accept the original sources, but continuously finding new sources to support the fact that Dylan once converted to Christianity. You have to understand that it is ridiculous that you have made no effort whatsoever to find any sources which clearly state "he did not convert" in the same way these sources state that "he did convert". As far as I am concerned, we are looking at a table of evidence. As it stands, no sources which challenge the idea of his conversion has arisen. You are applying your own personal judgment and presuppositions into the argument and the assessment of sources, rather than actually convincing us with something other than your own opinion of things.
You seem to assume that you do not need to apply any evidence of your own. You do not seem to realize that 13 sources which actually claim that he did convert are sufficient evidence that he once converted. Your personal skepticism about what the sources clearly state has no place in this article unless you actually provide sources to back up your argument.
You seem to hold to the belief that this list is a tool used by Christians to proselytize. No, it isn't. This is a list used for reference, in the same way that List of vegans is. List of vegans is a list of people who practice or have once practiced veganism. It is compiled for the sake of convenience, as is this list. In this list, you can conveniently see people who have, at one time in their lives, converted to Christianity. They may still be faithful today. They may still be nominally Christian, but not practicing. They may even have converted to other religions, which should be noted at their listing. Suspend for a minute your belief that Dylan never converted. Wouldn't his shorted-lived Christianity still be notable? Would his conversion to another faith later remove the fact that he "converted to Christianity"? Wouldn't a famous Muslims conversion to Christianity be noteworthy, even if he later returned to Islam? If someone was once a Muslim, converted to Christianity, and reverted to Islam, he still 'converted to Christianity'. He was a 'Christian convert', for at least some part of his life. This is notable. This shouldn't apply only to this page, but to every conversion list page. If someone once converted to Islam, and later left the religion, he still 'converted to Islam'. He should be included on the list, with a description of his situation.
Now, lets return to the Dylan conversion issue. No matter how things work in Bus stop's world, on Misplaced Pages, sources are needed to support information. As the other users and myself have taken the time to actually support our information with sources, I think our argument is warranted. You have done nothing but express skepticism and criticize the source by forming your own exegesis of the text.
You argue that you don't need to provide sources because you support the 'normal state' and conversion is the thing which must be sufficiently proven. Lets use an analogy. Lets assume that Celebrity A has an entry on Misplaced Pages. The article says "In the following year, Celebrity A married Random Person A." As singleness is the natural state, it is reasonable that proof would be needed. However, if someone provides sources which say "he was married", "they married", quite explicitly (and especially within a published biography), it would be foolish to say "sources with allusions to marriage are not sufficient. Please show me a source which actually claims marriage." The person who makes this argument should present a source which makes a convincing claim which challenges the fact presented by the existing sources: that Celebrity A did indeed get married.
You should make an attempt to provide a source which explicitly states that Dylan did not convert, as we have presented sources which explicitly state that he did. The only thing which is consistently calling these sources into question is your own judgment and dismissal of their claims. Should this really be the case? --C.Logan 22:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  1. Opposition to Messianic Judaism from the Jewish community by Robinson, B. (Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance)