Excessive detail belongs in the 'battle article' - I agree. --AussieSoldier 13:46, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The above is not about 'defeat' at all - it seems you have read it incorrectly. --AussieSoldier 13:46, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I suggest having a small paragraph about the battle itself which sets the scene for the occupation, and a link to the 'battle article'. --AussieSoldier 13:46, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Chineese were defeated by the japaneese during ww2 I think. I understand the nature of the battle was very unpleasant, brutal at least. Thats fine. The exact sentence above (my italicied text) for instance just is unnecesary. Do japaneese see this same? As traumatic/blody ? If so no need to tune this down or elaborade. --Cool Cat 14:17, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

AussieSoldier, I see you as a reasonable, civil, and knowlegable individual. Would it be fair if I see you as the Chineese or Pro Massacre view? Would you mind me inviting people with same qualities as you to this article whom are likely to disagree with material? Perhaps you may choose the people you can discuss this as I dont want you to deal with an uncivilised attitude? I am not trying to provoke a revert-war but NPOV encourages any significant view be present, how contraversial they may be of course is open for debate. --Cool Cat 14:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

yes, whatever pleases you Coolcat - I am neutral here - but I hold neutrality to be about facts and not about the nationalistic veiws of Japan or China. AussieSoldier

Duplication

According to the history page, you seem to have duplicated the whole page. Please look at the index. Since I only know the way to delete section by section, by hand, I don't want to do that labour by myself. It would be nice if you could delete the latter half of the duplication. Please delete this section too once you have completed it.

I would also suggest you and others to click on the "Show preview" button before clicking "Save page" button all the time and leave your whole history of editing. --Gerryben 15:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is a result of the "Edit wars" I am having with parties not involved in the actual discussion but keep reverting points we agreed on. --Cool Cat 15:39, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cool Cat, It is duplicated solely by youself. Here is the evidence. Please recover. I would be grateful if you could listen to my second suggestion too. --Gerryben 15:58, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is a result of two people posting at the same time, I fixed it. You only need to tell me a problem once, I was working on it while you were typing. I actualy merged them rather than deleting. I thought you ment the article itself having this problem on my post above. --Cool Cat 16:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. (It seems that you deleted my post completely, i.e. deleted the first half half of the duplication rather than second, but I can recover it and don't worry. I wish you haven't deleted others' too, though.) Sorry for confusion but you can clearly see that there have never been "edit war" today if you look at the history page. (My second suggestion will help too in order to make the situation better.)

By the way, shouldn't this section be moved to the first half of the current version, since the latter half of the current version seems to be originally meant to be the exclusively an editing page for a better article. The classification would be better in the line of "Discussion" and "Edition" etc.

Anyway, thanks for your work.--Gerryben 16:20, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lead

The following rewording is suggested

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the ], including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to ] on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) (a war that would later become a part of World War II). To this day, the event continues to stir Chinese anger.

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to conduct by the Imperial Japanese Army in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), later become a part of World War II. The Imperial Japanese Army is accused of looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians during the same era. The incident had been a diplomatic dispute between China and Japan since 1972.

• I assume this wasnt a diplomatic issue since 1972. Is this correct? I am basing this on the article already there. --Cool Cat 15:37, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Japan and China didn't have diplomatic relations before 1972. Until 1972 Japan recognized the Republic of China government in Taiwan. -- ran (talk) 16:41, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
• You see "what many historians recognize" as fary taling, I agree so no need for this. --Cool Cat 15:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • ... well, the only people who don't seem to agree are right-wing politicians and historians in Japan. -- ran (talk) 16:41, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
• Since this is a dispute its best not to start with conclusions. Starting with open mind and then making cases in the article is a good lead. --Cool Cat 15:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Disagreement with such a change? --Cool Cat 15:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Looks okay to me. However I would also mention that this dispute does not only caused diplomatic discourse, but also met with public disapproval, as seen from recent widespread protests. --Kvasir 22:28, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What a mess

I got a scare after I returned to this topic after days. A revert war has started, the talk page has been a complete mess, and the amount of pointless drivel here in the past few days make me seem as if I ended in a forum page. What happened, and can you people exercise some restrain. Mandel 16:11, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

It seems that there was an machine error. See the Duplication section. --Gerryben 16:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

Here's an attempt at a rewrite:

Instead of:

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the Japanese army, including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) (a war that would later become a part of World War II). To this day, the event continues to stir Chinese anger.

I have:

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the Japanese army, including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), a war that would later become a part of World War II. The Nanjing Massacre was quoted to have a death toll of 300,000 at the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal.

To this day, the event continues to be highly controversial. In China, the event is a major focal point of Chinese nationalism. The given death toll of 300,000 is generally accepted, as are descriptions of various atrocities by both eyewitnesses and official government accounts. In Japan, opinions are more divided, with some people accepting the extent of the massacre as presented by the Tribunal, and others denying that it ever happened. There is a general sentiment in Japan, especially among the right wing, that the Nanjing Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Such opinions, however, are considered by Chinese people as historical revisionism, and as such continue to stir anger and resentment.

-- ran (talk) 16:53, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

It reads pretty NPOV to me at least, though the last sentence of the opening paragraph may be disputed by some users. The 300, 000 controversial figure ought to be mentioned later in the article - at least it won't read as if it is an accepted fact. Mandel 18:04, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

I second that. However, if the 300,000 figure had been decided upon in the Tribunal, i don't see why it can't be where it is. A figure is neccessary to illustrate why it was considered a massacre. --Kvasir 22:38, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Okay, like this then:

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the Japanese army, including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), a war that would later become a part of World War II. The Nanjing Massacre was quoted to have a death toll of 300,000 at the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal, and there are also estimates ranging down to about 40,000.

To this day, the event continues to be highly controversial. In China, the event is a major focal point of Chinese nationalism. The given death toll of 300,000 is generally accepted, as are descriptions of various atrocities by both eyewitnesses and official government accounts. In Japan, opinions are more divided, with some people accepting the extent of the massacre as presented by the Tribunal, and others denying that it ever happened. There is a general sentiment in Japan, especially among the right wing, that the Nanjing Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Such opinions, however, are considered by Chinese people as historical revisionism, and as such continue to stir anger and resentment.

-- ran (talk) 18:28, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC

I have to say that I'm really in favor of the direction that Ran is going with the writing. Here's my support for updating the article according to this kind of writing style. --Rroser167 18:59, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. The rewrite looks good to me. Nandesuka 22:12, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The rewrite looks good to me, but a small statement can be made on the general western perception and account, not just on the Chinese and Japanese claims. This article, for example, slightly leans towards the Chinese side, and there were also foreigners (esp Christian missionaries) present when the massacre occurred. --Jiang 01:50, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jiang - It must be stated that it is Japan only who hold such perception and it is NOT only China who hold the opposite perception, namely, the rest of the world hold that a massacre occured. --AussieSoldier 03:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If the statement "The given death toll of 300,000 is generally accepted" is meant to be "accepted by Chinese people", it must be made clearer.

Also, at least the following fact must be included in the article for NPOV: the Chinese delegate to the League of Nations at the time put the civilian toll at 20,000 and a Communist Chinese newspaper of the period put it at 42,000.

I have already linked the review article by an Australian researcher working on this subject. (This has been already linked in Archive 1 and I wonder why people do not try to start from basic facts.) If this was not enough for you, I show another article written by Nicholas D . Kristof on New York Times, December 20, 2003.

"Even the Chinese recounting of history has become hysterical. Take the Rape of Nanjing in 1937, which was so brutal that there's no need to exaggerate it. One appalled witness in the thick of the killing, John Rabe, put the death toll at 50,000 to 60,000. Another, Miner Searle Bates, estimated that 12,000 civilians and 28,000 soldiers had been killed. The Chinese delegate to the League of Nations at the time put the civilian toll at 20,000. A Communist Chinese newspaper of the period put it at 42,000."

"Yet China proclaims, based on accounts that stand little scrutiny, that 300,000 or more were killed. Such hyperbole abuses history as much as the denial by Japanese rightists that there was any Rape of Nanjing at all. It nurtures nationalism by defining China as a victim state, the world's punching bag, that must be more aggressive in defending its interests."

Note that he is not a ultra right wing Nazi sympathizer, nor does worship Emperor. (If so, he could not write any article on NYT.) Contrary, he is generally pro-China and describes himself as "one who loves China and is rooting for it to succeed", e.g. he has written an article reporting that Japan removed Nanjing Massacre material from original plan for museum on World War II.--Gerryben 05:29, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... So what is the lowest numbers japaneese claim and higest chineese? I see it as good practice to write the lowest and higest claims as a range. --Cool Cat 06:02, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Highest is in the range of 300,000 or so. Lowest would probably be 0. -- ran (talk) 15:36, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

this version is acceptable by me, good work. --Kvasir 22:38, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

..

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the ], including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to ] on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) (a war that would later become a part of World War II). To this day, the event continues to stir Chinese anger.

• The statement above (last version you guys came up with) is a bit confusing, how about the follwoing? Keep in mind this is a lead statement while I also have difficulty to write a short lead statement on many articles it should contain maximum information and minimum and less perspectives. We can discuss that in detail below. --Cool Cat 06:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to conduct by the Imperial Japanese Army in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), later become a part of World War II. The Imperial Japanese Army is accused of looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians during the same era which a death toll is estimated in the range 40,000—300,000 however was quoted as 300,000 at the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal. The event continues to stay highly controversial and also is a diplomatic dispute between China and Japan

• Not exactly delete but relocate the material below. Its "details" right? --Cool Cat 06:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Lead should not alarm anybodies beliefs. That way people will read on. --Cool Cat 06:40, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• • Okay, I cannot accept the description of the Nanjing Massacre as the "conduct of the Japanese Imperial Army". That already alarms my beliefs (and a good indication too is how many people are complaining). The Nanjing Massacre is an accusation of horrendous atrocities. Either it happened or it didn't. Those who don't think any atrocities occurred wouldn't use the term in the first place. Those who think it did are going to call it an atrocity.
  • You have to see that NPOV is not about toning down language (atrocity -> conduct), because that offends even more people. How about toning down the Holocaust article ("The Holocaust refers to the conduct of the Nazis...") to please neo-Nazis? Or a less extreme example -- toning down (say) Islam ("Islam is a dubious and unsupported belief system") to please virulent anti-Islam fundies? NPOV is about presenting views in their full form. This means presenting the Nanjing Massacre both as an atrocity (since that's how people who believe in it view it) and also as a fabrication. (And to use the Islam example -- Islam should be described as whatever the Muslims think it to be in full, and also what everyone else thinks it to be in full, not some halfway compromise that will piss everyone off.) -- ran (talk) 15:31, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry, the lead statement can contain no conclusions in a well written article, that will promote the need of one of the disputed, pov. or totallydisputed tags. You are welcome to find a word defines the incident that wont bother both sides. Neither Islamic beliefs nor Holocaust is disputed either at a govermental or academic level. There is no serrious dispute, for najing that is the case. I do not determine international politics and acadamenia, it just is. I made minor research before comeing here, I was aware of the level of disagreements. I am not qulaified to discuss these disagreements, no one is. I am qualified to help them presented in a reasonable manner. --Cool Cat 09:33, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(Ran - I agree completely with what you have written above). --AussieSoldier 00:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks AussieSoldier. :)

Coolcat: You are welcome to find a word defines the incident that wont bother both sides. . There is no such word. That's the problem. -- ran (talk) 15:43, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

To this day, the event continues to be highly controversial. In China, the event is a major focal point of Chinese nationalism. The given death toll of 300,000 is generally accepted, as are descriptions of various atrocities by both eyewitnesses and official government accounts. In Japan, opinions are more divided, with some people accepting the extent of the massacre as presented by the Tribunal, and others denying that it ever happened. There is a general sentiment in Japan, especially among the right wing, that the Nanjing Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Such opinions, however, are considered by Chinese people as historical revisionism, and as such continue to stir anger and resentment.

• One problem I have above is the level of generalisation, I not sure if all Chineese/Japaneese uniformaly agree to that statements. Also the usage of "historical revisionism" may appear like an accusation. What do you think? Generaly its good and NPOV, I dont think its lead material though. --Cool Cat 06:23, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Of course historical revisionism is an accusation. If Japanese accusations of "fabrication" are going to appear in the intro then so should Chinese accusations of "revisionism". Also, I don't see how this can be written with less generalization... after all, the article already states that some Japanese people do agree with the account of the Massacre. -- ran (talk) 15:33, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with ran as above --AussieSoldier 16:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Both sides are acussing each other of fabrication. Neither sides accusation should be presented as an accusation. --Cool Cat 09:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Then what do we present? There would be nothing left to say, except for a halfway account of things that will offend both sides. -- ran (talk) 15:43, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

• I honestly am impresed the way you guys are discussing this. Thanks. --Cool Cat 06:41, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) Ok, this isnt going well... I take that back. --Cool Cat 09:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

CoolCat what are you doing? It is an encyclopedia and aint page of opinions! write what happend and not what any people think happend. doesnt matter if they all agree, its about what happend. it aint a reconciliation page of opinions.

Whoever youy are FIRST sign your post, you can do that by either clicking on the icon between W and -- on the top bar, 2nd rigten most or you could type: --~~~~. History has varous explanations. All notable views are REQUIRED to be present, this is an online Encyclopedia. Or you will have to deal with {{totallydisputed}} tag. What happened is not the issue here, you have to understand that this incident is seen diferently in Japan, as you can clearly see at the last paragraph, japaneese are not accepeting this as a massacre, like it or not those are notable views as far as NPOV is concerned. Therefore must be present. Even articles like creationism exists, wikipedia is based on everybodies facts even if those facts conflict. I am not suggesting you or the japaneese are lying. But this is how articles are written. Because I know nothing regarding the incident I see my self capable of pointing out when people get carried away. --Cool Cat 08:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Memorial Hall photo

There's a stark "carving" of sorts at the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall in Nanjing, which says in 3 languages; "遇难者 Victims 遭難者 300000". There's a photo at . I believe there's also a wall covered with the names of victims. I wonder if anyone has a GFDL version? -- ran (talk) 16:58, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Current 'neutraliser' is not neutral!!

Coolcat - I have had a look at the history of the 'Armenian Genocide' discussion page - you clearly have other intentions here - I ask you stand down as 'neutraliser' immediately. --AussieSoldier 04:15, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You can't order me around. You cant order anyone around. I will tag along as an adviser then. Just becasue I am polite I am accepting this. This article is NOT neutral. I was banned for 18 hours so that no one else in the discussion did, I see it as self sacrifice. Can you elaborate what my intentions are? --Cool Cat 08:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am acting as a mediator in nanjing massacre which requires me to not hold views either way. I am neither denying or acknowliging any material. It is hard to deal with NPOV when people have strong views regarding the article. --Cool Cat 08:27, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

User:Coolcat has no official role as a mediator; this is merely a self-applied label. He has previously attempted to cast himself in the role of 'mediator' on Talk:Armenian Genocide, Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh and Talk:Greco-Turkish relations, where he has met considerable resistance. He loves to use coloured text on talk pages and quote highly unique interpretations of Misplaced Pages policies, especially NPOV. Anyone is free to reject his self-styled 'mediation' and any advice he offers. He has been known to engage in personal attacks and edit other users talk page postings. — Davenbelle 09:00, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

You have no official status either. I am trying to help, you are not. --Cool Cat 09:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Talk:Armenian Genocide I was insulted on an edit basis.
• Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh I still apear as a mediator, no discussion has been made in this article last time I checked.
• Talk:Greco-Turkish relations My mediation attempt was destroyed by several people affiliated with Talk:Armenian Genocide, My suggestions are visible, my edits to the artilce is vissible. Misplaced Pages is anybody can edit median, I can assume any label. I never said I was official. I am only trying to help here regardless of the outside interference by several people affiliated with Talk:Armenian Genocide

"Official status" is such an Anti-wiki philosophy. I am a user, period. I am, however, most certainly here to help. — Davenbelle 09:37, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Hence no one can be an official mediator. thank you. --Cool Cat 09:38, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You just posted what 4th comment on which all you were discussing me. --Cool Cat 09:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

why were you banned for 18 hours?

I reverted the article more than 3 times. I did not want the version to change, and I did not want the image concenssus to be affected. 3rr (three revert rule) dictates article not to be reverted more than 3 times. This rule is enforced. --Cool Cat 08:52, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My first real mediation effort was in that article. That article is not Neutral. I was accused of many things and irritated/insulted on a daily basis. I learnt alot from past mistakes I am learning more about mediation while working here. Mediation is an art in which you never stop learning. Pretty much like Kung-fu, the chineese fighting art. I recomend ignoring outside interference from people in Armenian Genocide for their comments regarding me. I am ignoring them, so should you. The discussion started ok, lets not make a mess out of it. Random people who just locked the topic (like silsor did here) due to 3rr violations. --Cool Cat 09:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let me mention something about US History. Untill the modern times Indians (Native Americans) were accused of massacring pilgrims, soldiers, villeges. Every one believed this throughout the world. Even on compic books this was there. Today this is not the case. And even "Indians" are pardoned for the mistreatment and false accusations they recieved. What does this mean? Historic "facts" are not allways the way they appear. While I am not suggesting this is the case in this article, as far as the Japannese ("revisionists" as you call them) think otherwise. You are not required to accept their views by no means, and neither they are to accept yours. Please understand that they "believe" their facts are as factual as you believe yours are. That is why you should not accuse japan or the japannese. This is why you may not be able to see what appears to the other side as opinions. I can see this not been affected by either sides views. I am not trying to make things look nice, neither side is suggesting what happened was pretty. They see it as a consequence of war is that correct? Chineese see this as massacre right? See the conflict in facts? Now whenever the japannese comunity withdraws their opposition this wont be an issue, currently that is not the case. --Cool Cat 09:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Shall we follow suit and dimiss the Holocaust becuase some neo-Nazis have opposition that it happened?! AussieSoldier

No, because only a minority sees a problem. No issues at a govermental or academic level. --Cool Cat 09:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have accounted for the lack of government level recognition - please see above. AussieSoldier

Define "governmental or academic levels", If minor political parties say it, is it on a "governmental level"? If a small number of professors say it, is it on an "academic level"? -- ran (talk) 15:48, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

As an acting mediator I still will not take sides. I am not disputing or acknowlinging any material as facts because of my seat. Since you object me being a mediator, I will not conflict with you. I wish we could work on the problem in the same relationship. I dont want to leave the topic though untill either you can find a replacement for me, or withdraw your request. Meanwhile I will comment on things you ask me only. --Cool Cat 09:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Coocat - you stated above, "All parties should not be discussing ... each others culture." It is sometimes pertinent to discuss the culture of Japan to elucidate the reason for such and such - if it is not allowed, then how can the article ever be 'neutral'. The purpose to discuss culture IS NOTHING to do with personal attacks, yet it is to do with the content of the article - you have to make such distinction otherwise you are not 'neutral' at all. --AussieSoldier 08:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As to motivation - it may be described in terms of nationalism and culture in general. The culture in Japan is complex. It is often described by foreigners as 'sadistic'.--AussieSoldier 13:05, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This above can lead to a persons block on wikipedia, evade such material I suggest. --Cool Cat 09:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Collcat - you stae yourself that ALL veiws must be presented as part of NPOV - if it is the common veiw by FOREIGNERS - it is not MY veiw - then what is the problem - you are far form neutral, and you are predjudiced as you seem to hold all cultures are alike. AussieSoldier

Being a foreigner that isnt how people I know who have been to japan described it there. They said: "Beaultifull people". People who also wnt to china said the samething about the people. No one is sadisctic here, thats a product of propoganda. --Cool Cat 09:25, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If it is the product of propaganda, then so is the nationalistic revisionist claim that the massacre never happened - if propaganda is not to be recognised, then the Japan veiw is not to be recognised indeed!

If it is offensive to quote what others have described, surely it is more offensive to state that a massacre never happened. AussieSoldier

Excuse me, I am not saying only you are wrong, I am saying all such comments are wrong. I never suggested or acknowleged this as a massacre, and WP:NPOV dictates certain rules. I see you as an individual whom sincerely wants to see this artilce neutral. Please do not discuss me or other people, thats all I ask. --Cool Cat 09:41, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Koizumi

"In the past Japan through its colonial rule and aggression caused tremendous damage and suffering for the people of many countries, particularly those of Asian nations." Koizumi.

Can you please elaborate? --Cool Cat 08:48, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

do you even know who Koizumi is. --AussieSoldier 09:01, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No I dont, can you please elaborate? --Cool Cat 09:16, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ROTFLMAO! — Davenbelle 09:22, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

see: Prime Minister of Japan. — Davenbelle 10:13, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Davenbelle, it sounds like your purpose there is to annoy or insult Coolcat. Do you think you could show a little more Misplaced Pages:WikiLove? silsor 09:46, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link; I will give it a try. I find it quite ironic that Misplaced Pages:WikiLove ends with a link to see also Misplaced Pages:Wikicrime. — Davenbelle 10:13, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

It is a bit rich that Cool Cat is trying to moderate this article when he doesn't even know who the current Prime Minister is. How can you decide what the facts are when you don't even know the basic ones? --Bathrobe 13:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Judging from this talk page, it looks like he deserves to be insulted.--220.240.177.5 18:41, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While the article is locked

You can work on Nanjing Massacre/temp while the article stays locked. --Cool Cat 08:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

'Tom Uren, ex-prisoner and ex-Minister in the Whitlam government, made a clear distinction between "Japanese militarists" and their sadism and brutality ... A question was even asked in the Australian Parliament, and the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, Bruce Scott, assured members that ex-prisoners had told him that was accurate.'

--AussieSoldier 10:05, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please stop this, you will get yourself blocked, this isnt a threat, I am incapable of blokcing you and do not intend to request one, someone else might. Do not accuse the people of an entier nation as sadistic, also wikipedia does not allow copyrighted material and also Misplaced Pages:no original research policy. If you want to provide material regarding the discussion, you are welcome to use weblinks. --Cool Cat 10:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now you listen to me Cooclat - I provided documentation to support that it is a common held veiw that Japan's soldiers and Japan is sadistic - it is a view held and it is in no way for the purpose of 'personal attacks'. The material is endorsed by the 'AUSTRALIAN WAR MEMORAIL' and relevant to the article to support my claims of sadistic mindset as motivation for the brutality involved in the Nanjing massacre. --AussieSoldier 10:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You do not recognise a veiw held by the Australian War Memorial, yet you recognise a racist veiw held by nationalistic, revisionists, 'sadistic' Japanese - you dishonour ALL those who were tortured, raped, mutilated and murdered in ALL massacres by Japan's Imperial Sadistic Soldiers! --AussieSoldier 10:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You dont need to ask me to listen to you. I am all ears all the time. I am not taking sides however. Material you have provided supports your case. Thats good. I wont acknowlege anything as facts or lies. I however need verifiable sources, Australian War memorial is one. I prefer a link to an australian goverment side so we can put that in the article. Japaneese dont see their action as "sadistic", I presume so thats a POV. --Cool Cat 02:38, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Factuality

I dont see discussion going productive. It may be best to establish what both sides agree up on. --Cool Cat 10:25, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What both sides agree with? As in the (nationalist) Japanese and (nationalist) Chinese sides? Well... there was a war. I think that's about it.

Actually I find this discussion very productive so far. The main problem, as I see it, is to write a lead that does not offend anyone. I've already written a lead above that both sides seem to agree on. -- ran (talk) 15:54, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I was refering to the issue way above as not being productive. In any disagrement there is always a common ground we can build up on. I do not want either "Nationalistic" propoganda. That falls under WP:What Misplaced Pages is not. I need scholaristicaly what japaneese say. --Cool Cat 02:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

On the causes of Nanking Massacre:

1. The Japanese replaced the Confucian doctorine of Benevolence with Loyalty, in order to suit their traditional militarism - Bushido.

2. Unlike the Westerners, whos behaviors are controlled by inner conscience (guilt culture); The Japanese orientalism sanctions its members by a sense of shame (shame culture); Unfortunately, the shame culture does not function very well, once the men leave the collectivity - their wives, parents, siblings and neighbours; That is why the Japanese can be so gentle at home, but so brutal aboard.

I asked for what both sides argee regarding the incident, I did not want an analysis of the japaneese culture. --Cool Cat 02:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion to Coolcat

If you're going to appoint yourself mediator, at least try to learn the basics. Visit your local library and borrow a couple of books. Some good suggestions are cited in the "Further Reading" section. It would make things a lot easier.

With regards to finding reasons for the Nanjing incident, you won't find them. At least not any that meet your standards. Why? For the most part, this was not something that came from the top. Each soldier contributed on their own initiative. It's not like with Germany where you could say that you were just following orders. They did it all on their own.

While you'll probably be able to find plenty of discussion on what drove these people to behave the way they did, it will only remain discussion. You can either include the discussion with disclaimers, or you can leave no explanation. Both don't seem acceptable to you, but we can only go with one or the other.

1. Whoever you are sign your edits.
2. Dont tell me to do "Further Reading", instead please present your cases.

I will leave this article only when I see it as unbiased, even then I will ask for another review. You can feel very strong regarding your case. I am feeling very very strong on NPOVisation of this article. What Germans did was unacceptable, it was NOT ok. I am NOT saying/claiming it is ok to mass murder chineese or anything. I am saying, japaneese do not accept this as mass murder, Americans do not see Berlin Bombing as mass murder. Its about perspective. I am not concerned with the emotion behind the article, I can be understanding, but there is a limit. --Cool Cat 02:23, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am not asking for standards, I am asking the reasons either party sugests that lead to the incident. Just dont claim japaneese are traditionaly sadistic, thats far fetced and quite frankly is a product of propoganda. --Cool Cat 02:23, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Food for Thought

Do we all honestly think that we can untangle 60 years of unresolved dispute through a Wiki article? Accounts by witnesses of the crime didn't matter, nor did the cover up succeed. --Kvasir 22:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See below. --Cool Cat 02:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You are making this very difficult

I guess you wont be satisifed untill all japaneese are openly declared sadistic and all their arguments never been mentioned. You will have to deal with Template:Totallydisputed tag, other opinion is to chill. --Cool Cat 02:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please do not ask me to acknowlege Japaneese as sadisic or any material you provided as facts. I cannot due to my seat. I wont take sides. I just know what you provide here and in the article. I dont need lenghty websites or posts. This is a dispute, right? Can we please treat it LIKE a dispute? --Cool Cat 02:32, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)