Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:56, 2 May 2007

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Concern: The introduction mentions alleged bias or other controversial information. WP:LEAD - The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies. It is appropriate to overview the controversies and allegations of bias, as these are substantial. Concern: The introduction mentions allegations of conservative bias but I've seen studies that say Fox News is centrist and/or liberal. Shouldn't these viewpoints be mentioned in the lead as well? Although there are studies with various viewpoints on Fox, the view that Fox is conservative dominates. For the lead we restrict ourselves to the dominant view, conservative bias, while noting that this viewpoint has dissenters. The lead should only briefly summarize the notable controversies. The notability of this particular controversy is measured by studies, documentaries, films, boycotts from influential persons based on the perception of bias, and numerous pop culture references to the alleged conservative bias. No other viewpoint has gained as much currency, and therefore including them in the lead would violate WP:FRINGE; WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD. Concern: Does the article take any position regarding the allegations of bias? Misplaced Pages takes no position on whether Fox News is biased. The introduction highlights the existence of a notable controversy concerning the perception that the network promotes conservative political positions. Neither the introduction nor the article takes a position on whether such a perception is accurate, we merely reflect the consensus of reliable independent sources. Previous discussions: See archives 21, 19, 18, 17, 16 (Includes RfC) and 15.

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

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Extensive programming and host information necessary on main page?

I'm wondering if this page wouldn't be considerably more user-friendly if the long lists of programming and personalities were moved to a separate page focusing on that. While useful information, it seems tangential to the main goals of an article. I do realize that other network and newspaper pages do this as well, but perhaps someone can explain the rationale behind this--does anyone else see it as unnecessary clutter?— Preceding unsigned comment added by SlipperyN (talk • contribs) 08:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that's probably a good suggestion. /Blaxthos 07:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Recent POV change

A recent IP edit substituted "Democratic Party" for "critics". While that may be true, it is narrow and not directly attributable whereas "critics" is less controversial and certainly true. If no one minds, I'd like to tone down the edit for the sake of WP:NPOV. I'll leave stand the "fair and balanced" slogan as it is a counter point to the arguement before it (and is slightly ironic). CompRhetoric 13:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, change it back to the more NPOV (and consensus) version. /Blaxthos 15:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, didn't realize it was the consensus. Personally, I hit the Daily Show, Fox, and NPR for a round view - throw in The Economist and you might get a good Western-Centric view. CompRhetoric 19:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair and Balanced image

Hi folks, I removed "contraversatial(sp)" from the image caption as this appears to be wp:or and POV and unsourced. WHO says it is contraversial?? Just because their was a lawsuit and some flap that means what?? If we have reliable sources that say "Fox's slogan is contraversial" ect, then please provide a link to that source. Anyways, thanks, --Tom 12:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow... You admit to the controversy (which is well sourced) and then raise an issue by way of original research when it's noted as being controversial. These policies don't exist for you to use as a blunt instrument to keep out negative or unflattering information -- the controversial tag is not synthesis of new information, it simply notes that the tagline is indeed "controversial" (as you've already pointed out). WP:OR isn't to be used to cull out any information you can't find verbatim in the source itself. Reinserted. /Blaxthos 16:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't admitt to anything and it dosen't matter what you are I say/said. What matters is what reliable sources say. They say what? Please stop with your agenda pushing. I don't give a rat's ass about Fox news or whether its negative or positive material. I am an equal opportunity editor when it comes to POV words and editors who synthesize material. Again, just get a source that says what you want to add and add it. If not, just leave it out, geesh. --Tom 19:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Please tread lightly when accusing other editors of agenda pushing. The existance of the lawsuit, the book, our sub-articles on this subject indicate controversy. Anyone else want to step in here and voice an opinion on the spurious claim of unverifiable information / original research? This conversation, to me, borders on ridiculous at this point. /Blaxthos 22:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the caption and I think the word "controversial" would come across as very POV. The word makes it look as if Misplaced Pages editors are trying to push an anti-Fox News agenda. (I hate Fox News myself, but Misplaced Pages articles are not the place for that.) A better word would be "disputed", as in "Fox News' disputed 'Fair & Balanced' trademark". The word controversial tends to have a very negative connotation to it, so I would generally recommend avoiding it to keep things NPOV. However, since the IMI petition was withdrawn, the trademark is no longer formally disputed, therefore the best phrasing would be the current "Fox News' 'Fair & Balanced' trademark". JHP 00:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the legal status of the motion, the fact that it exists at all (as well as Franken's book and the resulting lawsuit) are ample evidence that the trademark phrase has caused controversy (which makes it controversial). Regarding your preference for disputed, I don't think there is that much difference in connotation; I simply think that controversial is a more accurate depiction (see previous sentence). Noting that controversy exists is definitely not a point of view. If we said "Fox New's bullshit slogan" then you might have a point... ;-) Regardless, it's inappropriate to gloss over the fact that the slogan itself has caused controversy. /Blaxthos 03:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

How can people spend this much time arguing over such a tiny thing?! Is it really that much trouble to just take it out? It's just a picture of a news logo, for christ's sake! I really don't see the logic of people pasting 'controversial' or 'disputed' on every single thing to do with Fox News. That people don't like the slogan is documented plenty of times in the criticism section. This article is slipping further and further into POV-pushing. Edders 11:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the fact that it's documented (and that you point out such) only supports the position that it's not original research and is accurate. I still fail to see how noting controversy equals POV pushing... /Blaxthos 14:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Because you are giving voice to criticism where it is not necessary. A picture of the logo shows a fact, "Fair and balanced" is their motto, and is seen on idents for the network. That is fact. As you said, we have sections for controversy. We don't need to put "some people think this is wrong" everywhere - we've already explained it enough times. Additionally, WP:NPOV does not call for negotiations, which is what the lead has became - a negotiation. The lead in this article does not conform to either WP:LEAD or WP:NPOV, despite this users' best attempts to claim it does. To put it bluntly, we know Fox News isn't seen as a neutral source by left-wing elements. The fact that we cite FAIR and MMFA (two highly liberal organizations) as primary sources in the article is damaging enough to Misplaced Pages's NPOV stance. Being a mouthpiece for those organizations, as I believe this whole article is, is completely unacceptable. This inclusion of "controversial" everywhere the motto is mentioned is just one example of how these groups get their way on Misplaced Pages. It is not controversial to state a fact. It is controversial to add "controversial" everywhere. --75.21.179.121 16:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The controversy is also a fact. WP:LEAD specifically says controversies should be noted in the intro. Citing controversey is not being a mouthpiece for any organization. The credibility of the controversy is left for the reader to decide, which is also appropriate. Could any of our established editors familiar with this article and who have actively participated in the consensus-building activities share their opinions please? /Blaxthos 18:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to note, not everyone who participated in the so-called "consensus" regarding the lead approved of it. In fact, many disapproved of it. Nevertheless, as the other anon stated, NPOV is not up for negotiation, as was done in the "consensus" decision (quite frankly, I'm still wondering how consensus was actually reached - and yes, I am looking at the archives). This is a clear-cut violation of the NPOV policy. That issue aside, we do not put "the controversial documentary An Inconvenient Truth" under every caption of artwork or images related to it on its article, because it too would be redundant, just like here on the "Fair and Balanced" statement. FNC's article is big enough; getting rid of some non-necessary material should be a high priority. I think if anything, we should remove the part about "Critics see Fox News as advocating conservative political positions ", and replace it with something like: "The network's motto, "fair and balanced", has been criticised by certain critics of the network, most notably the Democratic Party of the United States". Reasons being: (1) "Critics" is too wide of a term and is an example of a weasel word, and (2) from views of history, unwillingness of certain users to include sufficient information regarding origin of biased statement (as required in WP:NPOV under: "It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.".) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.227.194.89 (talk) 20:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Plain and simple, the mention of controversy is not being removed from the introduction. The intro serves as an overview of the article in its entirety and should include mention of any controversies. That is not up for debate. As to the mention of "controversy" in the image caption, I really couldn't care less. What I'm amazed by is the fact that people are edit warring over its inclusion/removal. If you find something in an article that you don't believe is properly sourced, by all means remove it. But, if you are reverted, take it to the talk page. Add a {{fact}} tag to the disputed section. Alert the regular contributors, but do not edit war. If a citation is requested, we'll look for a citation (whether or not one is really needed, the more citations an article has the better the article becomes). - auburnpilot talk 20:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The very fact that people are so desperate to repeat every goddamn criticism of Fox on every bit of information they can shows that this is definately POV pushing. The actual 'criticism' section is too far gone - I'm certainly not going to waste my time trying to balance a page ruled by 'mediamatters' fans. Frankly even the Bill O'Reilly controversy bit isn't as bad as this. At least the MAIN Fox News page can still be a genuinely useful encyclopedic article and not just a regurgitation of bloggers' little checklists on how Fox is run by fascists. Letting peoples' agendas seep into a page just makes it look untrustworthy. Edders 21:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

When your rant ends and you wish to discuss actual improvements to the article, please let me know. - auburnpilot talk 23:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. Either discuss the changes, or editors are soon going to be blocked; edit warring is not tolerated. I've reverted twice, the blatant removal of sourced information that is perfectly in line with WP:LEAD, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS. Removing material because you don't like it is unacceptable. - auburnpilot talk 23:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll ignore your personal insult and note that I wasn't directing it at you, if that's how you read it. I was appealing to people not to let this article go down the toilet as others about controversial subjects have. I've been watching the page for a long time without editing it, and I've noticed that Fox is vandalized so many times not by people simply adding 'you suck' but continuously replacing 'Fox' with 'Faux' or "Republican'. This is testiment to the childish zeal the subject inspires in some critics, who just want to turn it into a whinging blog post rather than a encyclopedic article.

Also, Auburn Pilot and the other editor who keep removing the controversy bit in the opening - bring it to the discussion page, guys! :) Edders 23:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Then you have my apologies. If you've been watching this page, you know this introduction has been the subject of discussion since October 2006. Maybe you haven't been watching it that long, but that is why I tend to have a short fuse in regards to this article. No matter how many times it is explained, no matter how many editors explain it, another editor always comes in and repeatedly blanks the introduction for the very reasons we've explained are not at play. Then, of course, they either refuse to discuss the matter or refuse to acknowledge policy is against them. - auburnpilot talk 00:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

No one seems to understand how it actually conforms to policy, but there have been many examples on how it does not conform to either WP:NPOV or WP:WEASEL, let alone the grey-area decision on WP:RS (competitors == bias in itself). Actually, "competitors" might be a good compromise, swapping it with the more ambiguous "critics". After all, the report as its only source (which, as history shows is not allowed to be referenced in the lead, although NPOV states we should only report facts about POV and always cite it no matter where in the article it is seen). The report was about FNC's competitors. --66.227.194.89 04:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Each time you make an edit, you come up with an even stranger reason for your actions. Now the sources are "grey area" and from competitors. You must be joking, right? The Project for Excellence in Journalism (source 1) was conducting by all of these people. This includes multiple journalism schools at major universities. The second source is an article by the Financial Times. How these are "grey area" in WP:RS is beyond me. Funny, we had another user swap reasons with every post once before...The position that critics believe the channel is conservative is fact. Please read the sentence. It does not say FNC is conservative. That would be a violation of NPOV; this is not. - auburnpilot talk 04:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There are now 4 sources for the sentence in the introduction. This includes two studies done by American universities in addition to two sources with statements from critics (the source's wording) including US House Representative Diane Watson. You cannot possibly have an issue with the sourcing of this statement now. - auburnpilot talk 05:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

This was all already covered in the last eight months of discussion, as well as in the FAQ at the top of this page. How can we continue to assume good faith when this guy/these guys are just re-using malformed arguments that have already been explained? /Blaxthos 07:18, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

As long as we're still stating policy, you can assume good faith. And no, this is still in violation of the weasel word guide, and of the NPOV POLICY. Specifically cite them, otherwise it will continually be a violation. You could put "Democratic representatives, and the 2006 Study composed of mostly competitors of the network see the channel as an advocate of conservativism in the United States." That is both factual and in accordiance with policy. The version right now, is not. And I've proved that numerous times; you users have not demonstrated its compliance with NPOV at all. --66.227.194.89 21:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

As stated within WP:NPOV, an opinion stated as fact is acceptable and exactly what should be done: "rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results...". I guess you missed that part of NPOV. Critics believe FNC is conservative; that is a verified opinion stated clearly. The sentence doesn't say FNC is conservative, the sentence states that it is the critics' belief. - auburnpilot talk 22:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The Beatles' claim is backed up in numerous, specific polls. The issue of FNC as a conservative organization is backed up in one poll of critics. That does not constitute enough reasoning for it to be included the way it is. You have one poll from one organization, which means unless you cite it as such, that's nothing to brag about, especially in the lead]]]. --66.227.194.89 21:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

As someone who's been involved in this debate briefly in the past, I have to say that I still think that if editors are going to continue to patrol this page, they should remain civil, regardless of how many times similar issues are brought up. If you can't remain civil, then you should probably take a break from this page.

As far as the sentence in the intro, I generally agree with what auburnpilot said. The statement identifies (broadly) the source of the opinion, and the citations identify it more specifically. I interpret this as being generally consistent with the intent of WP:WEASEL, which is to ensure that opinions are properly attributed. However, I do understand that it would be undeniably not weaselly if the word "critics" were replaced with a specific critic, but I think it's fine as is.

As far as the "controversial" description in the "Fair and Balanced" image caption, I generally agree with Tom, JGP, and the anon editor(s) in that it shouldn't be there. The body of the text provides plenty of info about the slogan, and I agree that unless a source specifically says "the slogan is controversial", that it's original research to say it is. (Note that if someone wants to add a source that says that specifically, I would have no problem with leaving it in the caption). Cogswobbletalk 20:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

If there is anyone who will argue that there is no perception of conservative bias at Foxnews is just not dealing with reality. In addition this perception is well cited in the intro. Further, one need not be far left to have the bias. Bill O'Reilly has stated numerous times that Fox News "tilts right" sometimes. Clearly he is not a critic of the channel, and clearly he is not a liberal. But that is beside the point, until someone can come up with how the citations are wrong and that one political viewpoint encompasses all of the holders of this perception the intro stays as is. Ramsquire 20:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Were you responding to me or to the thread in general? If you read what I said, I'm not arguing in the least against a perspective of bias. The only thing I objected to was calling the "Fair and Balanced" slogan "controversial" in the caption without citing a source that says it's controversial. I agree that it's controversial, but according to WP:OR, my opinion isn't a reliable source. Cogswobbletalk 23:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That's taking WP:OR entirely too far... use some common sense. WP:OR is to keep wikipedia from becoming a place where new thought is synthesized and proffered for consumption. No new thought is being synthesized, and I think people are trying to use technical interpretation of policy to nuance the article. This isn't an WP:OR issue. /Blaxthos 01:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Why on earth is it taking WP:OR too far to suggest that a clearly controversial statement should be clearly cited? Every time I read a Featured Article off the main page, it's chock full of citations and references around every statement that even sniffs of controversy or original research, yet you seem to be arguing for fewer citations around such statements in this article, by simply declaring that certain policies don't apply. I fail to see how adding references can make the article poorer. Cogswobbletalk 02:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Cogswobble, you interpret WP:OR differently than I do. Fox News' conservative bias is cited in the article. Al Franken's criticism of Fox News and the resulting trademark dispute got sustantial press coverage at the time. Also, the IMI petition regarding the "Fair and Balanced" trademark is cited. It's not that much of a stretch to use the adjective "controversial" to describe these disputes. My complaint regarding the use of the word "controversial" in the caption is that it reads like it was written by someone who has a grudge against Fox News. Since Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, I think its text should have a more professional and impartial feel to it. --JHP 03:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

"Critics and observers of the channel see Fox News as advocating conservative political positions". This alleges that all critics and all observers of media allege that Fox News is a conservative organization. That's plain false - not only a violation of WP:VERIFY, WP:NPOV and WP:WEASEL (not to mention WP:RS) - it's just incorrect. However, one more thing needs to be stated concerning "Fair and balanced"... I don't believe there is a single person or entity that is disputing that FNC holds the trademark to the term "Fair and balanced." Since that is the case, it would be extremely irresponsible to insert a "controversial" or "disputed" tag in front of it. --66.227.194.89 21:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

And again you've linked to policy and guideline without attempting to explain how the introduction is in violation of these policies and guidelines. And as an added bonus, you're now throwing in WP:VERIFY. We've quoted specific policies which clearly support the wording, sources, and inclusion of the statement within the introduction. You have yet to do so for your position. The introduction does not state all critics or all observers (your wording) and is backed up by sources. Your argument and interpretation of policy is flat out wrong. How many people will it take explaining this to you before it sinks in? - auburnpilot talk 21:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The perception of bias is verified by the survey of journalists who all can't be critics. It is neutral because it is only stating that there is a widespread perception(which Ailes and Murdoch admit to in the interview cited "People think Foxnews is conservative... Notice he didn't say "Democrats, the Left, or Critics). And when the holders of a position are too numerous and diverse to quantify, weasel words are proper. Finally, all the citations are reliable under the definition of WP:RS. So I am sorry to say that you are 0 for 4 in your policy citations. Ramsquire 22:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the disputed text in the introduction. I think it is appropriate and should remain, although I recommend saying "critics" rather than "critics and observers". The text is well-cited. The text is "fair and balanced" because it mentions both the criticism of Fox News, as well as Fox's defense. Conversely, I still think the caption for the "Fair & Balanced" logo smacks of bias. The controversy is appropriately covered in the text of the article. The dogmatic insistance on using the word "controversial" in the caption is overkill. Just because something is controversial doesn't mean you have to mention it everywhere it appears in the article. In fact, it is not the logo that is controversial; it is the slogan that is controversial. Perhaps we should remove the logo altogether, and let the text of the article speak for itself. --JHP 00:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no opinion of the "Fair and Balanced" logo issue (meaning I do have one, but I am trying to side step that issue). As for the introduction, the reason observers needs to remain is due to the citation. If we limit the phrase to only critics, it becomes incorrect. For example, I am sure there are a sizable number of independant and right leaning journalist in that survey that believe that FoxNews is biased, however, they may not be critics. I'll use myself as an anecdotal example. I don't think the mention of bias belongs in the intro as long as it covered in the article, but I believe the bias exists, and I am not a critic of Foxnews as I believe all news is presented with bias and spin. So the intro, to be accurate, should leave room open for people like me. Ramsquire 00:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with JHP on both counts. I think that "critics" is better than "critics and observers", but at the moment I'm not too opposed to leaving "and observers" in. I think that the caption "controversy" text is unnecessary and should be removed (or at the very least cited explicitly). Cogswobbletalk 02:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It still should specifically list the most prominent entities. The statement is still simply in violation of WP:NPOV, which makes it clear that we are to cite facts about opinions explicitly. --66.227.194.89 03:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Citing a fact about an opinion is precisely what is happening here. The sources back up the claim and nothing more needs to be said. I, Blaxthos, Cogswobble, JHP, and Ramsquire have explained this to you. - auburnpilot talk 03:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, I have much stronger objection to the new wording that was just introduced. "Many critics and observers" adds a weasel word for no good reason. I think it's far better to leave it as "Critics and observers", and my preference is for simply "Critics". Cogswobbletalk 03:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• Specifically citing examples is the only way this item can be resolved under policy. Anything less is just wasting time, and will never fit under WP policies. --66.227.194.89 03:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem removing "many" from the wording and believe the sentence was better before (re)introducing the phrase. As to the image, while I really don't care either way, I don't see the harm in adding a citation. - auburnpilot talk 03:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, would anyone mind if we split these two discussions into separate threads? It's getting kind of confusing with half the statements about the caption and half about the intro :-P I'll make a try of it and see if it sticks. Cogswobbletalk 03:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair and Balanced Image Caption

I am going to do a complete rewrite of the "Fair & Balanced" caption in an attempt at compromise. Please let me know how you like (or hate) it. --JHP 03:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

My preferred caption is still simply "Fox News' "Fair and Balanced" trademark", since I don't think the image caption needs to be wordy at all. But I won't object to your caption, since it basically just summarizes what's in the adjacent section. Cogswobbletalk 03:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I actually find the new caption to be a fair compromise. It clearly states the controversy exists (giving a reason for the image to be there) and that the controversy is related to the slogan. This caption is also backed up by the paragraph and the sources within. - auburnpilot talk 04:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

My model for the caption is the image boxes that often appear in textbooks or encyclopedias. They often have an image of the topic under discussion and a caption that either summarizes nearby text or provides some little bit of trivia about the topic. --JHP 04:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Nah, it's still weasely - there was one trademark dispute that really isn't that notable at all. I think its article deals with this issue nicely - we don't need to do any additional work at its presence, other than to note it is a slogan or that it is trademarked by FNC. --66.227.194.89 19:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Since the latest problem is that there are also allegations of liberal bias, I removed "conservative" leaving the statement "... controversy due to trademark disputes and accusations of bias". This encompasses all possibilities of any bias. - auburnpilot talk 19:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually there were two trademark disputes. How the hell could anyone (except a right-wing extremist) think they have a liberal bias? --JHP 21:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to Nuke the caption, but maybe we should just have the image :). OK please carry on with the agebda pushing, thanks, --Tom 23:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It's good to see you're willing to compromise. --JHP 00:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No kidding. I've re-reinserted AuburnPilot's compromise version. /Blaxthos 03:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Please stop with the agenda pushing. There has to be reliable sources WHO say there is a contraversy. It is orginal research/POV to slap labels on that caption. Take it to a blog or elsewhere, just stick to facts that can be sourced and verified. Thanks, --Tom 12:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Tom, stop with the spurious claims of agenda pushing, malformed arguments and flawed logic, and edit warring. Consensus is against you, and further edit warring will be both a 3RR violation and a thumb in the eye of editors who have been working together. Stop the incivility and disruptive edits please. /Blaxthos 15:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Will you provide a source that SAYS Fox's SLOGAN has had accusations of bias? --Tom 16:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think what the caption is trying to encapsulate is the "controversy" and accusations in the adjoining section, namely Al Franken's book. The Slogan has not had accusations of bias. Bear with me here, Fox has been accused of bias, and because it uses Fair and Balanced as a slogan, these accusers take issue with the slogan e.g. Al Franken's use of the slogan in his book. Unfortunately that can't go in the caption, so besides these few words of explanation, I have no solution to this issue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ramsquire (talk • contribs) 17:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Will you provide a source that SAYS Fox's SLOGAN has had accusations of bias? What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?  ;-) I think you're confusing your arguments, Tom. There is no accusation of bias regarding the slogan... The slogan has caused controversy, and we're noting such. This isn't original research. This isn't unverifiable. This isn't misleading. This isn't unsourced. It's simply true. Editors above came up with a more clearly worded version, which seems to have gathered consensus except for you, who would rather remove the image and caption instead of allowing controversy to be noted/explained. Let it go, man... /Blaxthos 17:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Blaxthos, as the editor above states, the SLOGAN image says that "the SLOGAN has been the subject of controversy due to trademark disputes and accusations of bias". My problem is that this makes it seem that the SLOGAN is biased. That may be the case, I don't know since I am not that firmiliar with this article. If that is the case, provide a source. If it is NOT the case, the image caption should be reworded. What can you and I agree on. I preffer LESS than more. How about, "The Fox News "Fair & Balanced" slogan has been the subject of trademark disputes." This appears to be factual I guess. Anyways, cheers! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Threeafterthree (talk • contribs) 18:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Massive spelling errors aside, you're changing up your reasoning and logic and missing the point... There is no POV issue when stating fact... and no one can deny that "Fair and Balanced" has been the subject of controversy due to trademark disputes and accusations of bias. The controversies go beyond a trademark dispute, and by trying to EXPLAIN the controversies (and all the surrounding sides) you're biting off more than you need chew. I am in favor of just tagging it as controversial.... but I'm going with the consensus version that was put together above. It's verifiable, factual, and concise. It doesn't give any undue credibility to note that it's been the subject of such. /Blaxthos 18:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

My spelling sucks, admitted. So much for my Ivy league education :). Its not about what "no one can deny that" it is about SOURCES saying that "the SLOGAN has been the subject of controversy due to trademark disputes and accusations of bias". You need to provide sources/links that say that exact thing, not YOUR analysis. I see this all the time where an editor will say "read the article, its clear that this is what is meant" ect. All I have an issue with is the CAPTION for their slogan image. Again, I have no hourse in this race. I could give a hoot about Fox. You have an admitted bias towards Fox. OK, whatever, we/you/I still need to provide sources for material in question or it should be left out. --Tom 19:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

My previous attempt to resolve the conflict seems to have failed, so I propose a new solution: Completely remove the image and the adjoining caption. There are too many Fox News screenshots in the article anyway. Most of the Fox News images don't provide the reader with any useful information, so if we have one that is causing a huge debate, just delete it. --JHP 19:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Great, I would rather have less, than more that, imo, is not properly sourced. --Tom 19:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Intro Statement

I have no problem removing "many" from the wording and believe the sentence was better before (re)introducing the phrase. As to the image, while I really don't care either way, I don't see the harm in adding a citation. - auburnpilot talk 03:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Which version did you think was better? "Critics and observers..." or just "Critics..."? I'm going to go ahead and change it to "Critics..." because that's the one I prefer ;-) but I won't object if someone changes it to "Critics and observers..." Cogswobbletalk 03:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer to keep "and observers" simply because the opinion is not held just by critics. I believe the studies and link to a comment by a US Rep go to the "and observers" while the fourth goes to "critics" (specifically stated in the source). Combined, you have "critics and observers". - auburnpilot talk 03:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I prefer to leave the "and observers" off because I tend to agree with the anonymous editor that it makes it sound as if everyone who observes Fox News thinks they are biased - whereas it's fairly safe to say that all their critics think they are biased. But as I said, I don't strongly object. Cogswobbletalk 04:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

That's kind of the catch-22. If we leave in "and observers" it implies all observers. If we add "many observers" its too weaselly. Observers definitely view the channel as conservative (not just critics), so how do we word this correctly? - auburnpilot talk 04:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

How about "Some critics and observers...". It allows the point to be made without being as strongly suggestive as "many" or an implied "all". Anything that doesn't specifically name who is bound to be weaselly, but I think there's a broad enough section of the population that naming a few individuals or groups is really not appropriate. --JHP 04:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Or what about "Critics and some observers..."? For me that encapsulates it a bit better. Cogswobbletalk 04:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I can live with that and have reinstated the "and some observers" phrase. - auburnpilot talk 05:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I can deal with this compromise of "some observers". --66.227.194.89 19:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

These types of statements should not be in the intro of ANY Television Station. CNN, FOX, ABC, whatever. It is a non-encyclopedic fact and should be reserved for a specific section. It's primary purpose is to criticize, and is not informative. Arzel 19:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

And you are flat out wrong. Please read WP:LEAD where it clearly states such controversies should be included. - auburnpilot talk 19:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

AuburnPilot, please find room in the lead to include Accuracy in Media's stance that FNC is in a stage of a "leftward drift". Surely AIM must be a big enough organization to be represented as counterbalance under WP:NPOV. --66.227.194.89 20:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. No where in the lead is any argument made that there is a bias at FoxNews. The intro only states that critics and observe see (or in other words Believe) that Fox has a rightward bias--it is about the perception of bias, not the fact of its existence. The intro is neutral because it doesn't take any stance. To add your sentence would be to take a position and violate NPOV. IF you feel the sentence should be in the article place it in the bias discussion, but not in the lead. Ramsquire 20:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it realy a notable controversy if it is only a perception of bias from a few sources? Arzel 01:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a notable controversy. What do you want? For us to source every person in history who has ever had the perception? The comment that this is only from a few sources is ridiculous. One source substantiating the perception would have been enough; we provided extra to reinforce the point. - auburnpilot talk 02:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, I believe that would fall under the undue weight clause of NPOV which states "views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views". I am not, however, opposed to the inclusion. I certainly don't support it either. I guess I just don't care. - auburnpilot talk 20:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This topic can have that effect on people. Ramsquire 20:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy in Media are an extremely conservative organisation who always accuse Fox News as well as all the other news organisations of things like "leftward drift". Canderra 22:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Because they're a conservative group, they don't matter? The CBC (Congressional Black Caucus) is completely liberal, and we're using one persons' POV from that group as a source for the lead statement that shouldn't be there. Source #6, which is being used as a source to the statement, (yes, statement - if it wasn't a statement, it would be attributed) but it doesn't even address anything related. But the media study is focused on one program, Special Report with Brit Hume, amongst other networks of its time (the study, although released in 12/04, hasn't researched programs since 03). These two sources that were included are probably FUD. So, in reality - you have a Project for Excellence in Media report and one Democratic congresswoman (dig up Howard Dean's comment and that'll give another example). That's two personal opinions of FNC being conservative, and one professional opinion. There is a prominent example of the network being considered left. It's not undue weight. --66.227.194.89 22:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Saw your comment after mine, but I see you came to roughly the same conclusion. Arzel 01:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Canderra, what you said is correct. However, many left-wing editors are happy to use left-wing media watchdogs like FAIR and Media Matters as sources. If left-wing media watchdogs can be used as sources, then right-wing media watchdogs have to be allowed as well. Personally, I don't think such agenda-pushing organizations are reliable sources no matter what their political persuasion. --JHP 00:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

How about the opinion of the owner of the subject itself. It's in footnote 8--and to quote “People think we’re conservative but we’re not conservative.” That's from Rupert Murdoch himself, totally validating that the perception exists, and denying it's truthfulness. That is exactly what the intro does, states the perception and the denial by Foxnews. Also, please note again, he uses people, which may be an admission that it isn't just critics. Ramsquire 23:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

From the WP:LEAD Criticism - include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism. Thus this should be both significant and notable. After reviewing the 4 reference sources for the intro (4,5,6,7) the following is obvious.

4 - This is a survey of journalists, who by their definition consider FOX to be the most conservative by either a two to one or three to one margin, the statistics they use are a little confusing. However, ref 7, which uses other research to justify it's study uses as a critera that journalists are two to three times as likely to be Democrats versus Republican. Ref 4 makes no note of the limitations in it's study, and just based off this fact it is not too suprising that they would get those results. In any case, ref 4 is not really a criticism of any source, but a report of how journalists feel, and is certainly not a direct criticism of FOX.

5 - This is a criticism by Democratic hopefulls only.

6 - This is basically 5.

7 - This is the only true research which could be used to back up the statement. However, this study is not critical of FOX or any other broadcast station, futhermore it does not state empirically that FOX is conservative, only that it is more conservative than some of the others. Additionally, ref 7 is specific to FOX Special Report and not to FOX in general.

As such only two of the references clearly state any criticism, and the cricticsm comes directly from Democratic hopefulls and not the general public or even the "general" critic as the lead would imply. Thus the intro needs to drop the "observer" tag, and include the clarrifier that it is Democratic hopefulls, or maybe more specific Democrats that view FOX to have a conservative bias. Finally, none of these is either significant or notable. Arzel 01:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You're 6 months too late for the debate on whether or not the statement will be included. You are welcome to discuss the wording of the statement, but even the hard opposers have worked to find a version of the sentence which is acceptable. Try working with the group, please. - auburnpilot talk 02:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:CCC Once established, consensus is not immutable. It is reasonable, and sometimes necessary, for the community to change its mind. A small group of editors can reach a consensual decision about an article, but when the article gains wider attention, members of the larger community of interest may then disagree, thus changing the consensus. The original group should not block further change on grounds that they already have made a decision.

After reading much of the history I have not found any consistent concensus regarding this issue. It appears there have been several other people that have also made the same comment to be rebuted with "concensus was reached". That aside, I see this article has had considerable discussion, which appears to derive from the fact that some very vocal anti-FNC people want to make sure that everyone knows that FNC is biased, giving the whole article a feeling of bias. In any case, the intro is not factual. Reference 7 does not back up the claim it is referencing. No reference makes any link to the general population which would attribute the word "Observer". The most serious claims of bias come from Democrats, specifically relating to the upcoming 2008 primaries. Arzel 04:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with much of what Azrel said here. I don't think the "consensus" argument should be used to stop discussion here, and I do think that the "observer" word would be better left out of the intro. Cogswobbletalk 04:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I don't care if there was a consensus then. The introduction is specifically written within policy and guideline. The references reinforce the statements, as does the section later in the article. Nobody here is anti-FNC, and if you actually read the archives, you would note that I was originally 100% opposed to the statement's inclusion. However, after discussion and a thorough reading of policy, I realized the errors in my argument. I'll link to WP:LEAD one last time, in hopes you (Arzel) will actually read it. The lead must be an overview of the article in it's ENTIRETY. If anything, we need to expand the lead, not reduce it. - auburnpilot talk 04:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

AuburnPilot, perhaps you should re-read WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:WELCOME, and most importantly WP:VERIFIABILITY. I spent over two hours last night reading through the archives and the reference links in the intro. Please explain to me how concensus was reached when throughout the past 6 months there has been continued questioning of the concensus and a flury of "sour grapes" statements to those questioning the concensus. Please explain to me how ref 7 in anyway possible backs up the claim that FNC in general is biased or that it is critical of FNC. Please show me on any of the references where any claim of observer is made. Arzel 13:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Arzel, but you're just spinning your wheels here. This has all been covered extensively, and I see no need to continue this conversation when it's plainly covered once every month or so in the archives for the past 8 months. /Blaxthos 16:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It has been extensively discussed without any clear concensus and continued arguement. Arzel 17:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Once again, the "it's been covered so there should be no more discussion" argument. Arzel said he read the entire archives and isn't convinced that consensus was reached. I read the entire archives a little while back, and I agree with him. I think there's plenty of room for discussion about the content of the intro statement. Just because the debate has continued for 8 months doesn't mean the debate is over. Frankly, I don't think it will ever be, after all, this is Misplaced Pages.

Again, I agree with Arzel specifically in that I think the intro statement would be better off without the "observers" part. Alternately, a better "observers" reference could be found. Cogswobbletalk 16:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Cogwobble and Arzel, no where in the introduction is there a statement that Foxnews is conservatively biased or that there has been research done "proving" any bias at Foxnews. The intro is only stating "People (a group too numerous and diverse to be quantified-- see WP:WEASEL) BELIEVE (again it is just a retelling of a perception--does anyone deny this perception exist?) Foxnews is conservative and that Fox denies that this BELIEF is true. Normally, I don't like sending people to the archives or shutting off discussion under the "consensus has been reached" argument, but it may do you guys well to actually re-read the discussion. In any case, I'll summarize: when the intro stated "Foxnews is a conservative news network" many editors were up in arms, and changed it (correctly IMO) to the "consensus" version (meaning the version we are arguing to keep. I could use current but everyday that changes) which is simply attempting to state that "Many people believe FoxNews is conservatively biased, however Fox denies this". If you have any suggestions on getting this out more clearly, please advise. But note that it is not just critics that have this perception, and that this perception relates to Fox's noteworthiness. Therefore, it stays in the lead and to only state critics is misleading and violates NPOV under the undue weight provisions. Ramsquire 16:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

To all those who wish to remove "observers", please come up with a reliable source supporting your position that it is only critics who hold this perception. Otherwise we shouldn't remove sourced information with unsourced info. Ramsquire 17:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you seriously considering a Rebuttable presumption regarding this issue. Do you have any idea what kind of precedent this would result in? Did you read what I had said earlier? NOWHERE in any of those references is there any mention of a general public concensus that FNC is biased. Those reports deal specifically with a Democratic perception that FNC is biased. As to your assertaion of what people believe, that is pure opinion. If you want an acceptable NPOV version clearly state the facts backed up with the two primary references. Possible suggested starting point: Critics consider FNC to be more conservative than other contemporary news organizations. with refs 5 and 6. Clean, concise, no weasle, not inflamatory, neutral. Arzel 17:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying that there is a "general public concensus that FNC is biased". Did you read what we've all been saying for the last 8 months? You miss the point entirely, and I'm starting to find it difficult to come up with a response that doesn't involve "you didn't read" or "you do not understand". /Blaxthos 17:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

That's why I'll be ignoring this user on this topic. It's clear that he/she is coming from an angle, that I just can't decipher. Ramsquire 18:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

How does removing "observers" violate WP:UNDUE? I've seen a lot of mention of this policy in this discussion, but most of the arguments that claim support from "undue weight" seem to be in contrast to what the policy actually says. Nothing in WP:UNDUE says anything about giving undue weight to any particular source. In fact, WP:UNDUE explicitly mentions that prominent adherents of a position should be named.

Furthermore, I disagree strongly that the "too numerous and diverse to qualify" exception somehow justifies any wording of the intro. The example used in WP:WEASEL for this exception is the rather benign "some people prefer cats, others prefer dogs". I just don't think that's even close to being equivalent to this issue.

To clarify, I don't have a problem with saying "Critics accuse..." and then citing some specific critics. I think this satisfies WP:UNDUE by naming prominent adherents (through the citation), and it satisfies WP:WEASEL by citing some example critics. Again - in my opinion, I think that "observers" is much more weaselly since it fails to qualify the holder of the opinion. Cogswobbletalk 18:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, are we back to this again? We went through this in October. Are you sure you've read? This is the intro, and naming individual critics to try and characterize the entirety of the controversies assigns that critic (or observer) undue weight. Read WP:LEAD and WP:NPOV (and where this was covered back in the day). /Blaxthos 18:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

(to Cogswobble--edit conflict) Just so I understand where we are coming from... You view a scientific survey of journalists where almost 70 percent believe that Fox is biased, and you get from that they must be all critics? In addition, you were the very person who found the quote from Murdoch, that said "People" and yet you want the intro to only state critics in direct opposition to two of the sources that have been provided, one of which was provided by you. I don't see how that could be done.

As for undue weight question, it is not the source, it is the elevation of a specific type of source. For example, if we said Greenwald, we would be elevating the "far-left" to the holders and denying more moderate and conservative persons who also hold the perception. (At least this is what the consensus was when I proposed naming specific persons-- see the archive).

Finally, I don't have a problem with "critics accuse", and it dovetails nicely with two of the sources, but it directly contradicts two others.

Ramsquire 18:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, let me clarify a little more. I am not at all opposed to "Critics...". I am weakly opposed to "...and some observers..." - I just don't think it's necessary, because I just think it is more weaselly than necessary, I'm not going to make proactive arguments to get rid of it, but I will weakly support other people who do. I would be opposed to "and some observers" because it fails to quantify entirely, implying that all observers feel that way.

As far as the "undue weight" thing - this statement "it is the elevation of a specific type of source" is exactly what I have a problem with. I don't see any mention of that in WP:UNDUE. I'm not saying it's not an argument you should use, just that I don't see it in WP:UNDUE.

Also, from what I've seen, the strongest and most prominent criticism of Fox News is qualifiable as coming from Democratic or left wing sources, so I don't think it's misrepresentative to cite it as such. Cogswobbletalk 18:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about using numbers, but you made three points and I need to keep it clear (multitasking). 1.Fair enough 2. I don't necessarily agree with the argument, I'm just letting it be known, that a) the discussion occurred previously and b) what the consensus voice was. I would actually prefer to name specific people, but I see the point that doing so narrows down the group of people we are referring to to the exclusion of others. 3. In the body of the article, that distinction is made much more clearly (and also in the Controversies article as well). But since the introduction is a brief overview, it would be misleading to make that distinction, considering the sources used. Ramsquire 18:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

noting State of the Media 2007 journalists survey finding:

At the same time, the single news outlet that strikes most journalists as taking a particular ideological stance - either liberal or conservative - is Fox News Channel. Fox has by far the highest profile as a conservative news organization; it was cited unprompted by 69% of national journalists.

Doldrums 18:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

one more source

Fox News had never been known for its impartiality: most of its program hosts freely mixed opinion and news. In times past the cable network had won favour with conservative politicians and viewers because of its definite right-wing sympathies. Now Fox News had proved that its brand of war coverage, full of bombast and vigour and patriotism was a crowd pleaser.

-Rutherford, Paul (2004), Weapons of Mass Persuasion: Marketing the War Against Iraq, University of Toronto Press, p. 105

Doldrums 19:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• I don't see why it's necessary to address this in the intro at all. Criticism traditionally goes in the body. We don't start our article on The New York Times by talking about how liberal its critics claim it is. It seems needlessly antagonistic to insist it be included in the intro here. Besides, even if a compromise on the exact wording is reached today, it will come up again in another month or two. Why not just give it its own section and end the drama before it starts? Kafziel 19:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

why in the lead - see Q1 in FAQ at top of page. my previous response (and other comments) in Archive 16. as for "it'll come up again", i hardly need point out that exactly the same argument can be made for leaving it out - in a month's time someone will turn up wanting to know why a notable feature of FNC is missing in the lead. the appropriate way to handle such things would be to sum up the arguments in a subpage and note the prevailing consensus on the FAQ above. Doldrums 19:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of "consensus". It doesn't mean "more people said X than Y, so X wins". It means "the people who said Y have been irrefutably proved wrong or have withdrawn their opposition, so X is the only remaining valid option". That hasn't happened here. Not by a long shot. And citing somebody's (whose?) idea of an "FAQ" doesn't mean nobody ever gets to ask those questions anymore. That's not how a talk page works. Kafziel 19:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

As has been stated numerous times, one of the reasons Foxnews is notable is due to the belief by many that it advocates conservative political positions, as well as the fact that it is owned by Rupert Murdoch, and that it is the number one cable news network in America. To highlight two reasons for its notability and dismiss the third, would seem to violate NPOV. Also, the conservative bias is discussed in detail in the body of the article in the history and controversy section. Under the guidelines of WP:LEAD, a sentence or so of the intro should be dedicated to each subsection of the article whenever possible. Finally, I disagree strongly with the edit protection of the article, as the only person edit warring was Threeafterthree (who could've simply been blocked under WP:3RR, the other editors were removing his changes until a consensus was reached on the trademark caption issue. No one was edit warring in the intro for the past few days. Ramsquire 20:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You can disagree all you like. The other editors who were reverting his changes had no more right to do so than he had to make them. He did not violate 3RR (and if we're going to talk about blocking someone based on the spirit of 3RR, then I could have blocked everyone involved - it wouldn't be my first time). Reach consensus (not just a bunch of people shouting louder than some other people, as I explained above) and then the article will be unprotected.

I don't have any personal stake in this article. In fact, I agree with you. I was just offering an easy way to get the page unprotected that everyone could maybe see fit to agree on (for the time being, at least - the future is not my problem). Fox News is not in any way notable because of the criticism. The criticism is notable because Fox News is already notable. It was notable long before the criticism. The only way to keep from POV-pushing here (as you've just proven, by saying I should have blocked one side but not the other) was to lock the article. You don't have to listen to my input - as I said, I was just making a quick suggestion, and have no real opinion here - but the protection stands until some better consensus is found. Kafziel 20:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

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