Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 05:55, 3 May 2007 editPetri Krohn (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,089 edits →[] answers: concentrate on the issues← Previous edit		Revision as of 06:02, 3 May 2007 edit undoPetri Krohn (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,089 edits →[]'s weird manipulations: moved to Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn/Archive 3 Next edit →
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	==]'s weird manipulations==

	I'm listing a number of weird things ] has done repeatedly here. Some of them have gotten reverted; some he has ceased to do once incontrovertible evidence was produced; some he's still doing.

	* Attempts to irrelevantly inject Estonian SSR's 1991 command structure into the background (it is irrelevant and available from the pages on the independence history) and to push the POV that economic migration of Russian workers to Estonia happened due to "rapid industrialization" after WWII (it didn't; Estonia had been well industrialised by late 1920s; however, many immigrants came to work on construction projects in Northern Estonia, especially mining operations):
	**
	**
	**
	**
	**
	**
	**
	** (also covers the demolishion idea)

	* Attempts to claim that a mystic "]" process would be performed on the statue (false: Estonia does not perform mystic procedures; the closest to those would be the ecumenic prayer performed by two military chaplains, one Lutheran and one Orthodox, in the beginning of exhumation and probably also upon the reburial when that will take place), or that it would be "dedicated" (false: Estonian practice of publishing secular signs, such as statues, important signs, and some artworks involves "opening" them, which has nothing to do with imbuing magical essences into those signs and is instead a ceremonial unveiling of them. "Dedication" is only performed in religious contexts such as opening a new church):
	** (with an especially weird comment on ])
	**
	**
	** (also covers the demolishion/newness idea)

	* Attempts to overstress the City of Tallinn's claim to the monument. (See below for discussion of this topic.)
	**
	**

	* Attempts to introduce "under cover of secrecy" into the brief intro or otherwise insinuate excessive secrecy on the part of the government. This was quite inappropriate as nothing of the plans was secret except the timeline (indeed, even mass movement of national police into Tallinn a few days earlier was covered in the news) and I consider it blatant pushing of the POV that the monument was removed in secret and without consulting with the people; thankfully, it has ceased.
	**
	**
	**
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	**
	** (also inappropriately replaces "relocate" with "dismantle")
	** (also covers the "demolishion" idea and adds weasel-words)

	* Inappropriate attempts to declare the monument "demolished" or otherwise imply it ceased to exist. These, too, appear to have ceased.
	**
	** (also covers the newness and "dedication" ideas)
	**
	**
	**
	**
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	**
	** (also covers the "rapid post-war industrialization" idea)
	**
	** (also covers the "secrecy" idea and adds weasel-words)

	* Attempts to push the POV that after relocation, the monument would be "new".
	**
	** (also covers the demolishion and "dedication" ideas)

	] 21:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC) (updated several times as the diffs got gathered)

	Then, he inappropriately removed this section in and , inaccurately calling it "stalking" and making baseless accusations of "personal attacks".
	:And again in . ] 23:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

	Please do not do it again. This collection forms a basis for a planned detailed and systematic treatise of a number of issues that has potential to cause, or has already caused, edit warring. Your removing it is disruptive, and against Misplaced Pages policies.

	Of course, if you regret your patterned POV-pushing on any of these topics (which is likely, as you have ceased making some of these reverts), you're welcome to help document the achieved consensus on these aspects. My issue is not with your person but with topics that clearly do not have properly documented consensus. ] 21:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

	=== ] answers ===
	What you have done is post a ] on me, consisting of ]. I have asked you to remove the harashing material and concentrate on the issues. You have refused. The fact that no one has commented on your flame only proves, that others on Misplaced Pages do not share your view, or do not want to take part in your attack, or to dignify it by commenting on it.

	Further down you argue, that the lack of comments on your accusations and manifest is a silent approval of your views. No such inference can be drawn. As this section is about dicussing me and my conduct, inferences about other issues are without merit. -- ] 20:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
	::This section does not discuss you, it discusses changes that just so happens you and not anyone else is pushing. I see no personal attack, just a call to stop edit waring. So why not stop crying ATTACK and start explaining? ] 23:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
	:I didn't comment on this before, because seeing how hard it is to do that without you thinking it is an attack on you. Also I didn't see the need. The way I see it, this is not a personal attack but rather a plead for your reaction to the questions raised; to clarify your points on why you have made such edits and reverts.
	:. --] 22:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
	::I have repeatedly asked him to remove the attack/dicussion about me and to concentrate on the issues themself. (see .) I will not discuss the issues under this heading and consider all descussion here on substance to be ]. He is however free to remove this crap and repost the questions without the personal harrasment. -- ] 05:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

	:Not commenting (or contesting his points) is indicative of agreement, not disagreement. You could say that all others here (apart from you) agreed with his analysis. I fully support what he wrote. ] 22:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

	===Discussion on the misconceptions listed above===

	====Purification, dedication, lustration====
	In Estonian tradition, secular statues are not "dedicated", nor "lustrated". Such statues, however, can be "opened", or "unveiled"; this can be done several times to a single statue. Declarations of the Estonian Ministry of Defence are clear that what will happen on May 8th will be an opening ceremony combined with a celebration of the ]; another opening ceremony will apparently be held in June when the mastaba will have been reerected and the exhumed war victims reburied.

	The important parts of an opening ceremony are the opening speech and a ceremonial removal of a veil, a cover, or a curtain placed on the statue (or sometimes, just a ribbon set up around it or in front of it) before the ceremony. It is symbolic of presenting the statue publically, and the statue having been public earlier does not prevent such a ceremony from taking place. However, it's customary to only have opening ceremonies when something new can be presented. A new location will qualify; so will newly restored mastaba.

	The tradition has been practiced in this form at least since 1920s, and the ceremony can also be performed on a building, a sign on a building, or various kinds of memorials. In rare cases, farming machines and industrial production lines were "opened" in this manner in the Soviet times. ] 21:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

	: Nobody has commented on it. I will consider it documented consensus, and reflect so on the main page. If anybody would disagree, please express the reasoning here. ] 17:42, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

	====Demolishion of the statue / building a new statue from parts of the old one====
	This is a peculiar one. As far as I can tell, no notable source has raised this question in the form you have pushed it. However, there are two possibly related concepts.

	There have been rumours, now clearly shown unsubstantiated, of the bronze statue having been cut off from above feet, or cut into pieces and then welded together when the protesters required its reinstatement. (Even the Russian Duma's special fact-finding mission repeated these rumours.) This has not happened; in part because there was no need to cut the statue for transportation; in part because it's very hard to actually weld bronze. The seam the Duma representatives fingered is technological, derives from the original casting process, and has been on the statue before its removal, as can be seen on high-resolution photographs taken before the removal.

	Furthermore, in the early hours after the removal, there were also rumours of the whole monument having been trashed and irretrievably lost. Most of these rumours can be traced to Mr. Linter, and, also, are now clearly shown unsubstantiated.

	No "continuity" or "sameness" issues have been raised by notable sources; it's consensus among Estonian population (both Estonian-speaking and Russian-speaking) that the statue has been relocated, not destroyed and rebuilt, and the only even remotely relevant notable issue has been that the new location of the statue is somewhat unfamiliar to most people that care for regularly visiting it. ] 22:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

	: Nobody has commented on it. I will consider it documented consensus, and reflect so on the main page. If anybody would disagree, please express the reasoning here. ] 17:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

	====City property claims on the statue====

	It is a fact that the monument is legally a property of the city.

	However, it merits no more than a mention in the overall narrative, and a claim that it was first erected by the city is incorrect.

	First, in Estonian governance practice, the border between city and state property is not always clear; it is routine for the state command city property through legislative or administrative acts. For property ownership purposes, municipalities of Estonia are not distinct from the state; instead, they are departments or subsidiaries of the state.

	Second, the property aspect has only been covered in a single declaration of the Mayor of Tallinn; it was not even considered worthy of response by any state official. (Mention of it in this declaration is the only reason it merits mention in Misplaced Pages at all.) No actual legal claim against state has been made by the municipality of Tallinn, neither through a court of law nor through the Chancellor of Justice; all that has been made is a single claim in a press-oriented declaration by the mayor.

	Third, in 1947, when the monument was erected, Estonia was under early Soviet rule, and 'city' was not a legal entity that could own property or perform actions. Instead, the erection would have been done by either some sort of 'committee' (most likely, the 'executive committee of the city') or a branch organisation of the Communist Party. Property issues of public monuments was not clearly regulated under the Soviet legal system, there being no need for such regulations, and it was only after the events of 1991 that it became possible to say that the monument was a property of the City of Tallinn.
	] 22:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

	: Nobody has commented on it. I will consider it documented consensus, and reflect so on the main page. If anybody would disagree, please express the reasoning here. ] 17:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

	==] (Tallinna Kaitseväe kalmistu) ==		==] (Tallinna Kaitseväe kalmistu) ==

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Tallinn Military Cemetery (Tallinna Kaitseväe kalmistu)

I created a stub about the military cemetery. I'm not 100% sure about its official name, so, please, feel free to improve and expand the stub. --Camptown 19:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

How about "Defence Forces Cemetery of Tallinn"? (Defence Force = Kaitsevägi) - 82.131.52.31 20:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Aha... I was wondering about that word. Defence Forces Cemetery of Tallinn is probably more correct. The cemetery seems to have been cited as the Military Cemetery in recent reports, so that should go an inofficial name. --Camptown 20:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Estonian Embassy in Moscow

about Thursday, 26-th

news from Friday, 27, in russian: http://lenta.ru/news/2007/04/27/embassy/

google translation to english: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Flenta.ru%2Fnews%2F2007%2F04%2F27%2Fembassy%2F&langpair=ru%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.192.20 (talk) 19:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/estoniareports/article.php?id=15768596 194.204.35.117 21:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.epl.ee/uudised/384176

Assault on Estonian ambassador by nashisht youths during a press conference , Swedish government protests trashing of their ambassador's car trying to enter Estonian embassy . Ethnonazi 13:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Arnold Alas

What is know about him? Supervising architect... The man behind the mastaba.... (wasn't he?) I cannot find any other architectual related stuff to that man, so was he really an architect, or just another Soviet bureaucrat who had been delegated for the creation of a war memorial? --Camptown 21:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

He was an architect; some data about him http://www.virumaa.ee/discuss/msgReader$527?mode=topic - Ahsoous 06:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Nikolay Kovalev (FSB)

It seems that the Nikolay Kovalyov mentioned in the article is the same Nikolay Kovalev (FSB) who preceeded Vladimir Putin as the head of the Russian FSB. -- Petri Krohn 00:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he certainly is. Today, he chairs the State Duma’s Veterans’ Committee. -- Camptown 01:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

POV image

Removed the thumbnail. I don't understand how it correlates to the rest of the article. Smaller caption text is mine. -00:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is about a memorial to the "liberators of Tallinn". Have you ever wondered what they liberated Tallinn from? (In fact this aspect should be covered in much more detail in the article.)

Anyway, the reason the image is incluided, is that the article how has a section describing how nice the Nazis were. -- Petri Krohn 00:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it too difficult to understand that at the time the Germans were considered a lesser of to evils? The first Soviet occupation with it's mass deportations and killings was too fresh and there was no illusion what will happen after these Soviets return.194.204.35.117 05:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Way off-topic, and duplicates Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany. Link to that artice instead. Ethnonazi 01:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

There was nothing to liberate (that wasn't really a liberation), because German forces had retreated before Soviet forces came in. Those who stayed were Estonians, AFAIK. -BStarky 01:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Estonian Jews were not saved by Sweden, but by their Soviet citizenship, that allowed them to escape to other parts of the Soviet Union, often boarding the same trains that were used for the famed "deportations to Siberia". -- Petri Krohn 00:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from using double quotes there. Apart from confirming your lack of neutrality, it's outright offensive. Ethnonazi 01:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Afte checking my sources... the forced deportations of 1941 did indeed include hundreds Estonian citizens of jewish descent. Your indication that they merely 'caught a ride' on the cattle trains is incorrect, as is your claim about their Soviet citizenship. Any sources? Ethnonazi 02:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a credible source. I think Estonian Jews still had their Estonian citizenship when escaping to wherever they escaped to. -BStarky 01:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri, you might want to read this publication ] about the terrible , terrible persecution suffered by the jewish in the ethnically pure Estonia. Do the words cultural authonomy ring a bell? Ethnonazi 02:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Russians and Jews had cultural authonomy in pre-war Estonia. Today Russians do not even have citizenship. -- Petri Krohn 02:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What stops them from acquiring Russian Federation citizenship? -BStarky 02:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Nothing. Free to accept it, as they are free to apply for naturalization (I doubt many have problems with the 5-year permanent residency requirement). Ethnonazi 03:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

If they all take Russian citizenship, could they not demand that the Russian parts of Estonia be ceded to the Russian Federation? -- Petri Krohn 03:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No. Ethnonazi 03:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It's theoretically possible such demands could be made. However, it is not politically likely they would be supported by others than political extremists, and there is no Constitutional way to yield to these demands. Digwuren 09:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It should also be pointed out that there is no "Russian part of Estonia". I'm sorry for missing this tidbit earlier. Digwuren 18:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The cultural autonomy laws were reinstated together with the Republic. You probably don't know it (considering your knowledge on Estonia), but in locales with majority russian-speaking population, official business can be conducted in russian. Russian-languague education is provided by government on all levels. Just a few examples of the oppression. Ethnonazi 03:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Does Estonia really have university education in Russian? Soviet Estonia did not have! -- Petri Krohn 03:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What are you on about, of course Soviet Estonia did have university education in russian. In USSR it would have been impossible to have an university with no russian. Where _do_ you get your data from? Ethnonazi 03:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I should point out that the rumours of the government closing Russian schools are misleading. Russian schools are not closed out of intent to discriminate but because demographics clearly show Russian-speaking schoolchildren numbers are on the fall. It's the same reason many Estonian-speaking schools have been closed. Digwuren 09:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Date for first image

The first image of the statue at its former place should be dated, what's the best format for this? --NEMT 02:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The date is May 2006, but that's all that Petri Krohn provided. Do you want to improve the thumbnail caption? -BStarky 02:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the current caption is misleading without a date. --NEMT 02:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I added the date, but caption text may need a bit of improvement by way of rewording. -BStarky 03:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, the caption for 3rd image is even worse. It says 'Map of mass grave', despite the map on image being captioned 'Project for The Field of Liberators', with no mention of graves. Ethnonazi 03:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Original research

I think that the following passage from Claims of police brutality,

A number of video clips, usually taken via cellphone camera, have appeared on
Youtube under the keyword 'eSStonia', ostensibly to corroborate the police 
brutality claims. Interestingly, most of them are mislabelled, apparently in 
an attempt to frame the incidents recorded in the clips in a pro-rioter way. For 
example, the clip labelled "eSStonia - Police car crushes pedestrians crowd" 
features no pedestrian-menacing cars.

is an original research violating WP:NOR.Yury Petrachenko 04:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It has/had a valid source as a newspaper article, see that in that passage. DLX 05:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The is a Youtube video, which is a primary source. The passage clearly makes interpretive and evaluative claims based on primary sources only. Yury Petrachenko 06:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a bad idea to use numbers for references in discussion, as they're bound to change over time. In this particular passage, there's also a reference to , which makes the evaluation; the evaluation is not original research. Furthermore, it is dishonest on part of Yury Petrachenko to leave out the reference, as it is clearly available in the passage in the article. Digwuren 09:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I haven't missed the reference on purpose. With the reference it makes sense to me. Although, I still think that in the passage evaluative claims based on Youtube videos are being made ("...ostensibly to corroborate the police brutality claims", "in an attempt to frame the incidents... in a pro-rioter way").Yury Petrachenko 11:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I seem to have been too hasty in accusing you of intentional dishonesty. I apologise for that.

However, I disagree with the idea that the passages you quoted are evaluative claims. Digwuren 18:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian goverment accused of cyber terrorism

BBC: Russia accused of 'attack on EU' But, is there substantial evidence, supporting the accusations of cyber terrorism? --Camptown 10:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The Estonian goverment has said that it has enough evidence to support these claims. 195.50.212.85 14:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

theyve got some IPs. --82.131.14.98 16:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Paet, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, has given the address lists to journalists. None have yet been made public, though. It is not yet known if it is because the journalists consider them too boring for that, or because the government considers them sensitive. Digwuren 18:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

"Baltic" equals "Nazi"?

Is it true that the same city of Tallin has recently installed an infamous huge monument for ethnic baltic Waffen-SS dead? (Several tens of thousands of latvian, lithuanian and estonian men fought and died for Hitler's cause in WWII)

If this is true, contrasting the erection of an SS monument with the removal of Red Army monument, the decision to nuke the entire Baltikum to cinders should be made, because Europe does not need three hitlerist countries. death to fascists! 82.131.210.162 12:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

There's no such statue in Estonia. Public display of nazi symbols is forbidden. Ethnonazi 12:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Estonian men fought and died for Hitlers cause because if they would not they would be shot or were just picking the lesser of two evils. Its OT but its part of my family lore that my grandfather escaped a train taking Estonian men to the front to fight for Germany with most of others on that train. After that the trains were armed so that anyone trying to run was shot immediately. Your information is plain wrong. Alexia Death 12:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Were there an Adolf Hitler statue in Tallinn before the events of 1944? Camptown 13:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Unknown, quite possible that some were erected during Nazi occupation. Ethnonazi 13:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The claim 'fought and died for Hitler's cause' is at the root of many recent troubles. They fought and died fighting against soviets, ideology wasn't something wartime balts could afford. Ethnonazi 15:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The same "fought and dies for Hitler's cause" does apply for any territory the German army invaded (including parts of Russia). It is just a way of war - invading armies (including Soviet) will utilize local people for their needs and there isn't much they can do about it.194.204.35.117 15:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Still, the phrase implies subscribing to an ideology, which rarely was the case. Ethnonazi 15:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Soviet victory over...

This line has changed from fascism (incorrect) to nazism (correct) to nazi germany (historically correct, but symbolically incorrect). Based on the context of the statement, it can be inferred the bronze soldier is meant to symbolize the more abstract victory of soviet ideology over nazi ideology (a common theme with the soviets), not the soviet state over the nazi state. Additionally, listing it as a victory over fascism is both historically and symbolically incorrect, as nazi germany was not a fascist state, and the soviet victory over germany did not end fascist regimes elsewhere around the world (nor did it stop new ones from springing up from time to time) - which mostly fell later without soviet intervention (Italian Social Republic, Franquist Spain, Estado Novo, et al). It did, however, spell the end of state nazism. --NEMT 14:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The symbolism is Soviet victory over "evil". Depending on country and language "evil" might be replaced by any one of these. For American readers the word Nazi Germany would be easiest to undestand, as this word has come to represent WW II genocidial enemies. The Soviets however would always use the word "fascism". -- Petri Krohn 21:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that first wiki link. Additionally, while the soviets may not have made a distinction between nazism and fascism, history and logic have. --NEMT 21:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the "evel" link. As for faschism vs nazism, do we want to mirror Soviet POV (As you yourself note) or internationally agreed-upon consensus? Ethnonazi 00:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The Knievo-Soviet War is too often forgotten in history. Anyway, this article says "nazi germany" --NEMT 04:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Criminal element among "protesters"

Pealinna tuntud kriminaalid kaitsesid pronkssõduri (in Estonian, "Known criminals protected the statue" (freely translated/quoted): "Other criminal activity was reduced by half in Tallinn during the protests, despite the fact that almost whole police force was in the city center. Photos and videos of the protesters and looters, however, show many well-known criminals among them - quite often as group leaders and most active." Not sure if it is relevant or not - probably is, to show what kind of people were leading the protesters - but how to include it to the article? DLX 16:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The Kosovo Liberation Army also started as a gang of criminals. Now they are handed a state on a silver platter. So, what's your point? -- Petri Krohn 21:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

They're still a gang of criminals. --NEMT 21:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

These persons were no ordinary "criminals", but known figures from organised crime syndicates. MAFIA. 1 2 3

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.54.91.25 (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

The article quotes policemen saying they recognized many faces - as in, previously arrested for criminal conduct - among the crowd. Pickpockets, drug dealers, etc. Ethnonazi 23:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

“Disproportionate use of force?”

Quoting the article: International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights: "According to media reports as well as reports received by the IHF, police in some cases used disproportionate force against riot participants. - Could anyone specify, which media reports did the Federation use as sources? Russia Today, NTV? Estonian Television? E.J. 16:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

EPL has published a bit sanitized account of experiences of one such detainee (who was innocent and who has provided his full name in the paper):
http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/384182 (the longer version is at http://itaever.blogspot.com ).

The writing genre is clearly artful, not documentative, which has raised concerns of mixing fact with fiction in this account. Unfortunately, it means this account can not be used as a proper source. Digwuren 19:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Minister Pihl defended the use of force to protect democracy: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/384310

-BStarky 19:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

International responce

USA official press statement related press conference transcript

“

We welcome President Ilves' call today for reconciliation among Estonia's citizens and for dialogue between Estonians and Russians.

”

The Americans do not seem to get it! No mention of the main party in this conflict, Estonia's Russian non-citizens. Reconciliation among Estonia's citizens will not help in this dispute. -- Petri Krohn 23:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

State Dept's phone number is 202-647-4000. Enjoy. Ethnonazi 23:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Causality and secrecy

The Estonian side seems to be pushing two (non-factual) POVs that contradict each other. The first is, that there were originally no plans to remove/relocate/demolish the memorial, only to conduct excavations. The lead now states:

“

In April 2007, work was began to exhume the graves for reburial at a military graveyard. A number of people saw it as a danger to the monument, and as a possible final preparation in removing it, and several protest pickets were held in support of the monument on April 26. On the evening after the pro-monument demonstration, the worst rioting Estonia has seen ensued, and early next morning, a crisis meeting of the Cabinet of Ministers decided to relocate the statue immediately for security purposes...

”

The above clearly tries to imply, that the removal was a response to the riots and the security threat. At the same time, the same editors claim that there was no (state) secrecy around the plans, and everything (except for a detailed timeline) could be freely read from the Estonian press. Both of these views cannot be true at the same time.

It seems clear to me that plans for the removal had been done in secrecy well in advance, without consulting Estonia's Russian minority. Suggesting some kind of a causality beween the the riots and removal is a blatant lie, and political propaganda by the Estonian government. -- Petri Krohn 23:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You're incorrect. The _plan_ for relocation lead to _riots_ which lead to faster than planned _relocation_. Ethnonazi 23:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant?

'Estonian support for Nazi Germany'

'Also, many Estonians tend to regard the Nazi occupation as less harmful for Estonia than the Soviet one, in terms of human loss, violence, economic destruction etc. This, and the fact that during WW2 Estonians were conscripted to the Waffen-SS (notably the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) as well as to the 8th Estonian Rifle Corps of the Soviet Army, has led to accusations of pro-Nazi (or fascist) sentiments among Estonians.'

First, the headline is POV, designed to draw attention in TOC. Secondly, the 'Background' section presents both sides' positions and grounds thereof cealry and concisely, hence this snippet is unneeded fluff. Thirdly, it's logically faulty: 'Estonians were conscripted by one side as well as other side, leading to accusations of them being partial to one side'. Hmm? Ethnonazi 23:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed that section, it was all irrelevant, POV and unsourced. DLX 05:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

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