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Peer Review

It's pretty clear that we have some strong opinions about this article. An editor more senior than I has suggested a peer review of the article WP:PR and I think it is worth consideration. With more voices, I think we would be able to draw closer towards a consensus. I've never done this before so your thoughts would be valued.Citizen Don 03:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I too would welcome it. TraceyR 07:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Worth doing soon as a step toward WP:FAC but it might be best to wait until we get closer to finishing the section on the Plotnick study. WP:PR isn't for disupte arbitration, it is more along the lines of proofreading and QC. Rhode Island Red 22:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm assuming that part of the peer review would be for people other than the usual editors to look closely at the article and determine the relevance of much of the material. It's not about dispute arbitration. It's about the article and how it should be written. I believe EdJohnston made the initial suggestion and I think it may be a good one. What do others think?Citizen Don 05:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

GNLD Reference is Available on Company's Website

Previous dicussions regarding the GNLD analysis of Juice Plus recommended removing the citation based on the claim that the report was not available on the company's website and had apparently been withdrawn. This is incorrect. The report is in fact available on GNLD's website

I have therefore restored the link to the WP Juice Plus article. For fair balance, I have also added the qualification that the analysis was conducted by a competing supplement company. Rhode Island Red 17:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Rhode Island Red: It's a bit late to play April Fool! The fact that it had been withdrawn was not the only reason for its exclusion. As mentioned by EdJohnston in the appropriate thread at the time, "calling it an 'article' is a stretch. It's a marketing claim that's no longer being made (like a TV commercial that used to run at one time)." That it has been reinstated by GNLD (an MLM competitor to NSA) doesn't mean that it is an article worth citing. It gives no results, just ticks in boxes, it doesn't say who did the analysis and where, it doesn't claim that it was done objectively by a reputable institute, doesn't cite a peer-reviewed journal in which the results were published, tries to give the 'results' a veneer of science by citing four articles describing the methodologies which we are expected to believe were used in their 'analysis', mentions limits of detection which are supposed to have applied to their analysis - it's simply a low-grade, pseudo-scientific marketing brochure (as is indicated by the URL, which places it firmly in the business tools section of the GNLD website). If it weren't so amazing that it is being suggested as a serious source of criticism of Juice Plus it would be a huge JOKE! Please, please try a little mind game for a moment: imagine that this was being used as a source for a positive statement about Juice Plus in this article ... how would you react? The article deserves, nay demands better than this!TraceyR 18:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

TraceyR: Your recent comments misrepresent the history of our discussions about this reference. You stated that the article was withdrawn by GNLD and that the chemical analysis is a marketing claim that is no longer being made. These assumptions appear to be false. I see no evidence that the analysis was ever withdrawn or recanted by GNLD, and given that this information is available on the company’s website, it is obviously a claim that GNLD stands behind.

In prior discussions, the primary reason why the GNLD analysis was suggested for deletion was because it did not appear that analysis was still available on GNLDs website, and this was the basis for its ultimate removal from the WP article. I had no objection to removing it on those grounds. These were the last comments made on the talk page: “Since the page has been withdrawn, the reference ought to go”. “It's a marketing claim that's no longer being made”. Obviously, these arguments do not apply.

One could argue that there are other reasons why the GNLD citation might not warrant inclusion, and that’s something that we can discuss, but let’s not misrepresent the outcome of the initial discussions. The earlier decision to remove was clearly based on the lack of availability of the article on GNLD’s website.

As a reminder, using sarcasm in Talk page discussions (i.e. the “April Fool’s” comment) is inappropriate. Please avoid sarcasm in the future and instead discuss the facts with objectivity and emotional detachment. Also, avoid use of all caps, bolding, and exclamation points “which are considering shouting and ranting…as it undermines a reasoned argument with the appearance of force” (cf.WP:TPG). Rhode Island Red 20:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

No sarcasm intended, nor 'shouting'. Consider the word "joke" to be in italic type if you like. I just find it so bizarre that this stuff is considered worthy of a mention when the conclusions of a peer-reviewed study in a renowned, respected journal are dismissed or at least considered unworthy of inclusion in the article. To avoid the suspicion of bias, let's at least have the same criteria applied universally.

Please consider the 'mind game' request mentioned above (and let us know the conclusions you reach and if possible the reasoning involved).

As for the GNLD page always having been available, just not visible to web searches - what is the effective difference between the two? It certainly isn't readily 'searchable' on the GNLD website (I have not located it yet); perhaps it's in an area with menu access restricted to distributors but available via the URL.

I don't actually remember anyone suggesting that the company had 'recanted' this marketing flyer, but I am open to correction there. Certainly it is a valid assumption that it had been withdrawn if all your efforts at the time to find it were fruitless.

I think that several reasons for not using this reference have already been given, for which a response would be welcome. Here they are, with a few more:

• It gives no results, just ticks in boxes
• it doesn't say who did the analysis and where
• it doesn't show that it was done objectively by a reputable institute
• it doesn't cite a peer-reviewed journal in which the results were published
• it tries to give the 'results' a veneer of science by citing four articles describing the methodologies which we are expected to believe were used in their 'analysis'
• it mentions limits of detection which are supposed to have applied to their analysis but doesn't give either sets of figures (GNLD and Juice Plus)
• the 'article' is in fact a foldover flyer which GNLD distributors can post to prospective customers (is this the new "gold standard" for wiki sources?)
• GNLD's products compete in the same market as Juice Plus - quoting this article is tantamount to providing GNLD with free advertising via wikipedia - something forbidden by wiki rules.

A discussion of the compelling reasons for the inclusion of this source would be most welcome TraceyR 22:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

My replies to TraceyR's comments follow:

"I just find it so bizarre that this stuff is considered worthy of a mention when the conclusions of a peer-reviewed study in a renowned, respected journal are dismissed or at least considered unworthy of inclusion in the article."

The GNLD reference is cited in the Criticism section, not the Research section of the article. As such it is not being presented as research. The criticism section is open to opinion from sources that do not necessarily present supporting scientific data; however, GNLD backed up their criticism with some data, which included referenced methodologies and detection limits showing that their analysis found that Juice Plus had non-detectable levels of alpha-carotene, lutein and lycopene. The GNLD analysis is clearly referred to in the WP article as having originated from a competing supplement company. It is not being misrepresented as a journal article but instead is accurately described as a criticism originating from a competitor. It seems to me that the GNLD reference has been used with a NPOV.

"As for the GNLD page always having been available, just not visible to web searches - what is the effective difference between the two? It certainly isn't readily 'searchable' on the GNLD website (I have not located it yet); perhaps it's in an area with menu access restricted to distributors but available via the URL."

You are making very arbitrary assumptions that are untrue. The site is visible by Google search; that is how I found it. Why is it relevant whether or not you were able to find it using GNLDs search engine? Why assume that it is only available via restricted access to distributors? This assertion is totally untrue. I was able to find the analysis by navigating the GNLD homepage and it was freely available without restrictions.

"I don't actually remember anyone suggesting that the company had 'recanted' this marketing flyer, but I am open to correction there. Certainly it is a valid assumption that it had been withdrawn if all your efforts at the time to find it were fruitless."

I didn’t put much effort into locating it again after I had originally posted the citation, at which time it was readily available. But why make any assumptions about whether it was withdrawn. Maybe they were retooling their website when you last looked. Perhaps you did not look very hard. This is beside the point. The analysis exists and it is on the company website.

"I think that several reasons for not using this reference have already been given, for which a response would be welcome. Here they are, with a few more...It gives no results, just ticks in boxes"

So? The information presented shows that the levels of the nutrients in Juice Plus were nondetectable. In what way could they have presented that data that would be more compelling to you? It would not have been accurate to list the values as zero and they certainly couldn’t present a chart or bar graph to show non-detectable levels.

"it doesn't say who did the analysis and where"

So? Presumably GNLD did the analysis. GNLD is taking responsibility for the data and claims presented. The WP article makes no claims that this was an independent analysis but instead attributes it to GNLD. I see no problem with this aspect. No WP policy mandates that the information you asked for is required.

"it doesn't cite a peer-reviewed journal in which the results were published"

That is irrelevant. It is not being cited as research, it is cited as criticism from a competing company that did their own analysis and reported their findings and opinions. No peer-reviewd journal would publish a study that merely reported a comparison of vitamin content between two products. Such a study would be considered to be extremely mundane and would certainly be reported through means other than peer-reviewed journals. It is akin to when NSA publishes label claims about the content of their product. We cite those claims without questioning how NSA conducted the analysis and if there is conflicting data, we mention that too.

"GNLD's products compete in the same market as Juice Plus - quoting this article is tantamount to providing GNLD with free advertising via wikipedia - something forbidden by wiki rules."

That is a highly subjective interpretation of WP policy regarding advertising. It is no more advertising when we mention GNLD's analysis than when we list the claims about nutrient content that NSA provides on the Juice Plus bottle label. Besides, Juice Plus has a whole WP page, GNLD has one single line of text. Whose product is receiving the bulk of the advertising? I don’t see how any WP policy regarding advertising is being violated in this case.

In summary: (1) I would suggest that we look at the GNLD article as being akin to NSAs label claims about Juice Plus. We consider such data to be worth reporting, even though NSA never published their methodologies, and the results never appeared in a peer-reviewed journal. (2) There are no published sources that mention assay results for lycopene, lutein and alpha-carotene content of Juice Plus. Therefore, the GNLD reference does not dispute exisiting data, it merely adds to it. If NSA had published such data, we would most certainly include it, but until then, GNLDs report stands as the only source to have ever commented on the assayed amounts of these 3 nutrients in Juice Plus. (3) The GNLD assay is mentioned in the Criticism section, not the Research section and, as with other sources menitoned in that section, it need nit have originated from a peer-reviewed journal.

TraceyR, while you may have objections to certain citations and content, please consider whether your objections are supported by WP policy and clearly frame your objections in the context of those policies. It seems that you are applying some very subjective criteria that are in many cases not consistent with WP policy. The yardstick here is not whether content meets with your approval but whether it satisfies WP policy. Rhode Island Red 03:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I can live with TraceyR's latest edits on the GNLD content. The old version read: “A chemical analysis of Juice Plus reported by GNLD International, a competing supplement company, showed that Juice Plus Orchard/Garden Blend did not contain detectable levels of alpha-carotene, lycopene, or lutein.” and the new version reads: “An unpublished chemical analysis of Juice Plus reported by GNLD International, a competing supplement company, is claimed to have shown that Juice Plus Orchard/Garden Blend did not contain detectable levels of alpha-carotene, lycopene, or lutein. Although it could be argued that this was in fact "published", since publication on the internet is a form of publication, I am willing to concede in the interests of reaching a resolution. I assume that we can now put this issue to rest. Rhode Island Red 14:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hypothetically, say I wrote a blog that read, "Juice Plus has been shown to cause incontinence." Would this be a "published" statement? Would it be worthy of being added to this article? I think competitors findings would probably be a level below my little blog entry too.Citizen Don 04:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." Doesn't this mean that, since GNLD's claims are not verifiable, they should not be included at all, not even in the current form? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TraceyR (talk • contribs) 05:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

No, it does not. The statement made about the GNLD report is as follows: "An unpublished chemical analysis of Juice Plus reported by GNLD International, a competing supplement company, is claimed to have shown that Juice Plus Orchard/Garden Blend did not contain detectable levels of alpha-carotene, lycopene, or lutein." That statement is verifiable by the link that was included to GNLDs report. WP:VER would necessitate only that we can verify that GNLD made this claim, nothing more. Rhode Island Red 23:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

SNAEMS website withdrawn in 2002

The SNAEMS website referenced in the article was withdrawn in 2002; it had not been updated since 1999 and has since been replaced (see withdrawal announcement page quoted below).

Data from the Special Nutritional Adverse Event Monitoring System website for dietary supplements has not been added to or updated since 1999, and the website has now been removed. The information previously available on dietary supplement adverse event reports on this website was very limited and was provided in a manner that made it difficult for users to appropriately interpret the adverse events.

The Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition (CFSAN) is currently evaluating how best to provide adverse event data in a manner that is useful, meaningful, and appropriate. By doing so, CFSAN hopes to be able to provide the best information about all adverse event reports on a user-friendly website.

More information regarding the enhancement of this website will be posted here as it becomes available and as funding permits.

Thank you.

---

See Letter to Stakeholders: Announcing CAERS, the CFSAN Adverse Event Reporting System August 29, 2002

The material from this site and the reference to SNAEMS therefore need to be removed from the article. Since the relevant content is doubly referenced, someone with access to both sources (SNAEMS and the NSA Virtual Franchise Owner's Manual (2002)) will need to sort this out. It would be good to check if there is a newer edition of this manual available and, if so, what it says about adverse effects. (As an aside, can sources not available to the general public be cited?) TraceyR 13:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The Special Nutritional Adverse Event Monitoring System discontinued collecting reports in 2002, although this would have no bearing on reports of adverse events received by SNAEMS prior to that time. An active link to the adverse event reports on Juice Plus collected by SNAEMS is still available and is included in the WP article. Since SNAEMS has now stopped collecting reports, it is likely that adverse events associated with the use of Juice Plus have been under-reported. No new reporting system has been implemented to monitor AEs associated with supplement use. The Juice Plus AEs reported to SNAEMS are very similar to those reported by other sources (i.e. GI side effects, etc.) so the information collected by SNAEMS is not controversial or contradicted by other sources. Rhode Island Red 23:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Concerns

Hiya, I've been busy with other projects (like getting the Knights Templar article to Featured status), but decided I'd pop back in here to Juice Plus to see how things are going. I'm glad to see that there's still an effort to keep the article as referenced as possible. However, I'm sorry to see that edit wars are still continuing, that ad hominem attacks are continuing (from both sides) and that some editors (from both sides) seem to be fixated on this article, to the exclusion of any other work on Misplaced Pages. Really, with the amount of energy that you folks have put into this one page, you could have created a couple dozen other encyclopedia articles by now! I also have to admit concerns that we're again seeing overly-detailed information creeping its way back into the article text. For example, the list of ingredients that is showing up in the Product Description section. Wasn't that the reason that we set up an infobox, was to get rid of the lists in the text? My recommendation is that this information be removed or merged into the infobox, and that we concentrate on making the article as readable as possible for general readers. --Elonka 17:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka -- I fully agree about the time spent on this and the need (or lack thereof) for a peer review. In my time following this article (more than a year) I am starting to see a trend developing where a JP user or distributor or simply a fan finds the page and starts lodging lots of complaints since the article does not match to either JP marketing materials or match their personal experiences with the product. In any case Rhode Island Red spends an inordinate amount of time defending the page, which ultimately leads to a peer review or senior reviewer who changes the content, but ultimately doesn't satisfy folks who want the article to present JP in a favorable light. I can't imagine how frustrating this must be for RIR. If she stops responding, all of this work will be lost and the page will mirror JP marketing materials. If she keeps responding, her research and other potential Misplaced Pages entries suffer. The thing that is the most concerning about this whole process is that the long arguments on both sides are moot. The real issue is the general tenor of the article -- and as long as Misplaced Pages gives a voice to those who will reference their work, the article will always be controversial to JP users/distributors/fans, because there happen to be a large number of folks questioning JP's business model, efficacy and marketing. For example, as a Christian I can't stand some of the articles regarding subjects important to my faith, but I realize I can't make wikipedia an advertisement for my faith and that there are many people out there who don't agree with me. I can't spend the time fighting edits in those articles for they ultimately won't change. I don't know the resolution, but there clearly aren't enough folks like RIR out there with subject matter knowledge and a passion (probably stirred by edit wars here more than anything else) to present the truth as they see it. I guess the only solution is for some of the rest of the neutral users to stand up and let RIR take a break -- but frankly and sadly most of us don't care if a product is misleading as long as it is not effecting us. I know I don't care enough to edit frequently on this page. For all of our sake could both sides please take a break and work on other matters -- this article has been peer reviewed, argued over way too much. Tbbooher 01:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Tbbooher, I totally respect your wish for everyone to step back for a minute. I feel the same way. Luckily, I'm too busy to get caught up in the daily edit battles. I would like for you to consider what it's like for someone who doesn't agree with RIR though. I don't think RIR is the lone defender of the neutrality of the article as you seem to characterize her. Do you see the kind of references she brings to the table? We get competitor websites and biased article getting more attention than published studies. There aren't a "large number of folks questioning JP's business model, efficacy and marketing" but there are a few and RIR has made sure almost everyone of them is well represented. Please don't assume the views opposite to RIR as being imcompatable with a good article. Personally, I would really just like to see a neutral article.

Elonka, I couldn't agree with you more about the preponderance of overdetailed information. I would like to see an infobox too.Citizen Don 05:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough Citizen Don, I just feel the same way Elonka does regarding the time spent on the article and have seen some POV opinions fought by RIR since I have been watching this page (most were in the past with some JP spokespersons showing up). I must admit, however, that I have not been able to read the recent long edit discussions and haven't read any of the references so I don't know if they are biased or not. Moreover, my research (in math) is not anything close to nutrition. Tbbooher 11:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. However, can I please ask that we all work harder to get away from talking about the editors, and stick to discussing the actual article itself? --Elonka 06:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Tbbooher: You were very accurate in your assessment of the situation and I appreciate the comments. Rhode Island Red 23:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka: I agree that many of the comments have been very long. Might I suggest, in keeping with your comment, that you avoid using vague heading titles such as "Concerns". It opens the door to long rambling replies. Instead, please use thread titles that refer to specific content issues, as outlined by WP:TPG, which states "It should be clear from the heading which aspect of the article you wish to discuss. Do not write "This article is wrong" but address the specific issue you want to discuss". Thanks. Rhode Island Red 23:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

My reply to Elonka's comment about the information under the Product Description heading is as follows. In your previous edit, you created a heading called Product Description; however, you did not carry forward or add any details that would qualify as a description of the product; just the names of the manufacturers and the cost of the product. The section needed to be populated with some information, which I subsequently added. Although you created an infobox that includes a list of ingredients, it only covered one of the products (Garden Blend); however, that product is not meant to be taken alone but rather in combination with Orchard Blend. The most critical question for article readers is the nutritional content provided when the two products are taken as directed. The information that I subsequently added (the RDI for the 6 labeled nutrients provided when Orchard and Garden Blend taken together as directed) is not an ingredient list and it is not duplicative of the information in the infobox. Relevant information has also been provided to indicate that these nutrients in Juice Plus are added post-processing and that they are obtained form outside suppliers. While Juice Plus gummies had been included in the Research section, we had no information in the article on what the gummies contain. In conclusion, the few new lines of information that have been added: (a) do not make the article "less readable" to "general readers" as suggested by Elonka (b) add valuable information that would be of obvious value to readers with an interest in the subject, and (c) the section needed to be populated with some information, which it now contains. If anyone wants to comment on this further, please start a new heading using an appropriate title as per WP:TPG. Rhode Island Red 00:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Citizen Don: You were very accurate in your assessment of the situation. I'm sure many editors (past and present) appreciate the comments. TraceyR 18:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Archived

This page was getting absurdly long (over 200K) so I've gone ahead and archived it. Also, I saw that some people in this discussion seem to be particularly, erm, articulate, to the point of creating multiple posts that were multiple paragraphs long. May I gently suggest that this may not be the most effective way of communicating? In my experience, the longer that a post is, the less likely that (most) other people are going to actually read it. I'd like to encourage everyone in this discussion to work harder on keeping comments brief and focused. If you have multiple points to cover, then it may be more effective to bring them up in separate sections, rather than trying to cover everything all in one post. Thanks, Elonka 17:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No longer use Juice Plus

---I started a time ago (friend was selling it) and I had my son use it too. Needless to say, we both had explosive diarrhea. My son was becoming dehydrated because he did not inform me of his episodes. At the time, I thought I had a stomach virus. We stopped taking the juice plus and we both became "well" again. Yes, I did fill out the "research paper" but of course, no response. 216.242.134.146 01:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)Concerned

Plotnick Study and Freedman Comments

The previous discussion on this topic was still active prior to being archived. Since the issue will probably be raised again, I thought it would be fitting to start a new heading and include my reply to TraceyR's last post on the topic.

TraceyR said: Regrettably the issue cannot be 'put to rest' there. Just to clarify a few points: the overgeneralisation you object to was never made: no-one claimed that Juice Plus "reduced endothelial function" (nor indeed improved it). The amendment which was removed stated '... leading the researchers to conclude that the combined intake of Juice Plus and Vineyard Blend "significantly decreased the detrimental effect of a high-fat meal on endothelial function"'. I see no reason for objecting to this statement and propose that it be reinstated.

Reply: The issue is whether we should state specifically that Juice Plus minimized impairment of "brachial artery vasoactivity" or whether we should go with the more generalized statement using “endothelial function” in its place. As I have repeatedly attempted to point out, the study did not look at global measures of endothelial function; it looked at a very specific test involving brachial artery vasoactivity (BART). This is reflected in the title of the study which does not mention “endothelial function” but instead mentions “brachial artery vasoactivity”. The study measured post-occlusion vasoactivity of the brachial artery and on that I am sure we are in agreement. It is simply less accurate to refer to "endothelial function" as this is not what was directly measured.

Whatever you may think to be the issue, the point is what the article actually said, not what you would like it to have said; there is more to the article than the title. The researchers concluded that the combined intake of Juice Plus and Vineyard Blend "significantly decreased the detrimental effect of a high-fat meal on endothelial function". While you may prefer your own verbiage, that is what the authors of the study in question wrote. TraceyR 19:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

TraceyR said: The Plotnick data on percentage decrease in vasoactivity following a high-fat meal, as depicted in Fig. 1, is clear (baseline percentage decrease in vasoactivity, 4-week percentage decrease): Placebo group: 40,9%, 37,6%; JP group:45,1%, 16,6%; JP&V group: 47,5%, 1,7%. In other words, the improvement in the placebo group (all figures rounded) was 8%, slightly up from the 3-week figure; in the JP group 63% (significantly better than at 3 weeks) and in the JP&V group it was 96% (a dramatic improvement on the 3-week result). It is certainly not splitting hairs nor a matter of opinion: the additive effect of Vineyard Blend is very significant and Freedman's statement totally inconsistent with the data. If you like, I'll prepare a small table for the article which will show the figures for the 3 groups and demonstrate that Freedman's position is untenable.

Reply: The effect of Juice Plus Vineyard Blend was not additive. First, Plotnick stated that the effects of the 2 regimens were “similar”; the authors never stated that the effect of VB was additive. Secondly, Freedman’s published comments specifically stated that the effect of Vineyard Blend was ‘’not’’ additive. Third, your own analysis of the data is incorrect. Plotnick’s study did not report a statistically significant difference between the OG/GB group and the OG/GB/VB group. Without such statistical support (i.e. a p-value showing that the magnitude of effect in these 2 groups differed from one another), one cannot say that there was a significant difference, no matter how large the apparent difference were in terms of percentage response. Those are hard and fast rules. While you may think the difference is significant, there is in fact no difference according to universally accepted criteria for data analysis in scientific research. We cannot add your unpublished analysis/interpretation of the data, particularly when it is so clearly contradicted by both the authors of the study in question, as well as by the published comments from Dr. Freedman

What Plotnick et al actually wrote was that JP&V had a "similar beneficial effect" (my emphasis) - an important omission on your part. And no, the authors didn't use the word additive - that came from Freedman. So what's the problem? In her summary of the study she wrote that it "presents intriguing data concerning a potential mechanism for the beneficial effects of flavonoid supplementation and adds to the growing information available demonstrating that substances rich in flavonoids enhance brachial function." She also wrote that the findings were "notable", her major criticism being their lack of clinical relevance (which was not the declared objective of the study). I do wish that you could see your way to presenting the data from studies in an objective way - that is what is expected here.TraceyR 19:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

TraceyR said: The addition of Vineyard Blend did not lead to an increase in total cholesterol and LDL because, as the figures show, the JP&V group did not experience an increase in either parameter. If Freedman meant to say that there was a smaller decrease for JP&V than for JP alone, he should have said that, but he didn't. As it stands, his statement is incorrect. This is not a matter of supposition or opinion but fact. My amendment to the article, since deleted, included these figures. I propose that it/they be reinstated.

Reply: Freedman (Jane) is a “she” not a “he”, and she was correct in her statement regarding cholesterol effects of Vineyard Blend. Freedman said "the addition of the vitamin supplement (Vineyard Blend) appeared to have no additional effect on brachial function and led to an increase in total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol as compared with the juice concentrate alone.” Please note that Freedman did not say that addition of VB increased LDL and total cholesterol as compared with baseline but rather, as compared with the Orchard Blend/Garden Blend group. OB/GB decreased total and LDL cholesterol, while this decrease was eliminated when VB was added to the regimen; thus VB increased LDL and total cholesterol as compared with the OB/GB group. Freedman's comments were accurate.

Well, since that is what she wrote it will have to stand (are editorial comments really 'peer-reviewed'?), but it is still inaccurate. Since there was no regime which gave first JP and then JP&V, it is incorrect to refer to an increase rather than a difference. Noboby's perfect. TraceyR 19:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

TraceyR said: A statement earlier that JP/JP&V only affected vasodilation of the brachial artery is 'interesting', in that it might be taken to imply that the effect was specific to just this one artery. Is that what was meant? That would be a medical breakthrough! The study concluded that it affected endothelial function in general (in the context of the study). We are to report what was concluded (see DGG's clarification on Wp policy above), not apply our own interpretation to it.

Reply: Plotnick’s study measured vasoactivity only in the brachial artery. No conclusions can be made about the effect of Juice Plus on any other blood vessel. Different vessels respond differently to various agents and it does not follow that what happens in one vessel happens in all other vessels, such as, for example, the aorta or carotid artery, which are primary sites of injury in cardiovascular disease. We should limit ourselves to commenting on what the study measured -- post-occlusion vasodilation in the brachial artery.

Well, I reported on what was measured (see "percentage decrease in vasoactivity following a high-fat meal" above) but that didn't suit you there. But now it suits you here! You can't make up your own rules just as it suits you. No, we should limit ourselves to what the report concluded. Let's get that peer review exercise rolling. TraceyR 19:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

TraceyR said: If you now concur that Freedman was incorrect on both points, we can move on and remove these errors from the article. For the sake of balance I suggest that the Freedman opinions be included, as before, with a subsequent explanantion of why they are inconsistent with the results of the study. TraceyR 17:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply: You may think that Freedman was incorrect, and I have argued that you would be wrong to do so. But unless you have a published source that says Freedman was wrong in her interpretation, it would be inappropriate and against WP policy to add your dismissal of Freedman’s comments to the article. Rhode Island Red 00:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I have a published source now (see above) :-) TraceyR 19:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've tried following this discussion, and I'll admit that I'm totally lost. Could someone please paraphrase this in simple terms, with a focus on what this would mean in terms of a change to the article? In other words, one of you wants the article to say "X" and the other wants "Y", correct? Please give me examples of just what exactly the "X" and "Y" versions are? --Elonka 03:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, you'll find them in the revision history. Somewhere here you also find Rhode Island Red insisting that edits are discussed here before changes are made to this article. So what is policy in the rest of WP? Elsewhere it seems to be fine to edit first and talk afterwards, but Rhode Island Red makes the rules here.

Basically my problem with this article in general is that Rhode Island Red is not just preventing it from becoming free advertising for Juice Plus (as such a laudable aim) but is seriously overcompensating. He/she seems to be (a) ignoring some positive results of studies, (b) giving competitive marketing material and dubious negative websites (e.g. the egregious Juice Plus 'research' blog, Stephen Barrett's various Quackwatch amd MLMWatch 'articles') precedence over published studies and (c) putting his/her own negative spin on the conclusions of published studies. He/she has accused me of "softening" the article to make it more Juice Plus friendly (I can't remember his/her exact words); my edits have usually attempted to change unwarranted negative interpretations of sources to reflect what was said in the original. I have neither the time nor the energy to cite chapter and verse on each and every case of what I see as biased, non-NPOV editing, so I'll just mention the research blog (since removed), the officially withdrawn SNAEMS site (which is still being defended, against WP rules, presumably because it contains unsubstantiated reports of negative side-effects), the competitive GNLD flyer cited as a source, his/her notorious defence of the "danger to the unborn fetus" 'source' (since removed) .... TraceyR 07:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

TraceyR, I appreciate your frustration, but it's really not helpful to refer to another editor as being the problem here. The most effective way to implement controversial changes to the article is to bring up a single small "chunk" of the article here on the talkpage, engage in civil discussion about it, and build a clear consensus among multiple Misplaced Pages editors as to how that section of the article should be handled. Once this is done, it doesn't matter who disagrees -- the fact that there's a consensus, trumps all. If you don't have time to do this, I understand, but I would recommend that what time you do have be focused on those types of actions, rather than expending energy here just expressing concerns about one editor. If, however, that is how you wish to spend your time, then I recommend starting a "user conduct RfC" on the specific editor, which will then be a clear venue where that editor's behavior can be reviewed (and it gets things away from this article talkpage). For more information, please see: WP:RFC#Request comment on users. Other options include an RfC on the article itself, or a peer review. --Elonka 18:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Remove article?

I have come to the conclusion that this article should be removed entirely. It is obviously too controversial a subject to receive objective treatment here. It simply provides a forum for one dedicated Juice Plus detractor of unclear motivation (Rhode Island Red, with no WP interest other than this one article, who would be left with lots of time on his/her hands), and some others who are puzzled by the way the article has become so negatively slanted and who try to redress the balance. And then there are the people for whom the article ostensibly exists: the rest of the English-speaking world! What must they think of Misplaced Pages? TraceyR 07:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that the article should be deleted, but if you feel strongly about this, you can submit it for deletion via WP:AFD. --Elonka 18:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

TraceyR needs to stop making personal attacks on other editors. This is ridiculous. Please stop. 85.71.60.166 14:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Adverse effects

I recommend deletion of this section. Currently it says: (1) that there's no firm data on adverse effects; (2) that in one study some subjects developed a rash; (3) that in one study some subjects developed symptoms that resolved spontaneously and were deemed unrelated to Juice Plus; and (4) that a handful of possible effects are listed in the distributor manual. The only source that I really like in the whole section is the FDA spreadsheet, and even that one is iffy, since it's a voluntary reporting system, and clearly a primary source with no secondary analysis. As such, I think the entire section should go, unless we can come up with a secondary source that provides proper analysis of the data. What do other editors think? --Elonka 18:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Attribution/FAQ.

Some sources are generally unacceptable for use as references in Misplaced Pages: ... An obsolete source is one that is out-of-date, or has been officially withdrawn or deprecated by its author(s) or publisher. Editors of articles on fast-moving subjects such as law, science, or current events should ensure they use the latest sources.

The FDA spreadsheet/SNAEMS site was officially withdrawn by the publishing authority in 2002 - this is no doubt why the article links to a web archive site rather than to the original source. It was always very suspect, in that no attempt was made to ascertain causality - a poor and a primary source - off with its head! TraceyR 17:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Think you should get more input from NPOV editors before suggesting deletion of any of this content. 85.71.60.166 14:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)