Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:30, 18 May 2007

This page was nominated for deletion on 6 March 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

• Talk Page Archive

Note

Some people like these awards. Some do not. I would just say:

• Users who find Service Awards silly, pointless, loathsome, or otherwise unpleasing are encouraged to not display them.
• Users who find Service Awards silly, pointless, loathsome, or otherwise unpleasing are encouraged to disregard them if found on another editor's page.
• But in neither case to interfere with others' enjoyment of them, thanks.

Herostratus 16:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Requirements

It doesn't specify whether one needs X number edits in mainspace or total. --Seans Potato Business 14:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Total. Herostratus 04:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps mainspace would be better... I use my usepage as a to-do list, among other things, so I have a ton of edits in userspace that aren't helping anyone but myself. Maybe it should be everything except userspace? Λυδαcιτγ 01:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Er, yes, I suppose... I also use my userpage to keep stats and stuff and an always updating it... on the other hand, total edits is simpler, and most users don't edit userpages that much to really make a significant difference... and as you say, edits to talk pages, project page, etc. can be as useful as mainspace edits... so all in all I personally would rather just keep it at total edits rather than requiring the additional steps of subtracting just userpage edits, I guess. Herostratus 04:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

OK. I suppose it's up to the user to decide which edits are significant. Λυδαcιτγ 06:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

You shouldn't be using your userpages as todo lists and the like. WP:NOT: "Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site... may be used only to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. If you are looking to make a personal webpage...please make use of one of the many free providers on the Internet. The focus of user pages should...be...providing a foundation for effective collaboration." See also WP:USER: "It is a mistake to think of it as a homepage", etc. Furthermore, many wikipedians spend little time in mainspace but are massively active in the Misplaced Pages:, Template: and Category: namespaces, and their contributions are just as valuable, simply different. I.e. this topic is a moot point. Marking it resolved, unless someone really has a strong reason to continue talking about this.  :-) — SMcCandlish ツ 07:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

More flexible requirements

It occurs to me that the double requirement of edit count and time served is hampering, because many editors will reach one mark long before they reach the other. Edit count strikes me as more important. Three competing ideas: Get rid of the time served requirement. Or reduce them all (except New) by half while keeping edit count requirements as-is. Or make them flexible:

• New: as-is
• Journeyman: 2000 edits + 6 months or 4K+4
• Yeoman: 4K+12, or 5K+9
• Experienced: 6K+18, or 7K+15
• Veteran: 8K+24, or 10K+21
• Veteran II: 12K+30, or 14K+27
• Veteran III: 16K+36, or 18K+33
• Veteran IV: 20K+42, or 22K+39
• Senior: 24K+48, or 32K+45
• Master: 40K+60, or 52K+54

Simple mathemetical formulas. An even simpler and more flexible one with rounder numbers might be:

• New: as-is
• Journeyman: 2000 edits + 6 months or 4K+3
• Yeoman: 4K+12, or 5K+6
• Experienced: 6K+18, or 7K+9
• Veteran: 8K+24, or 10K+12
• Veteran II: 12K+30, or 14K+15
• Veteran III: 16K+36, or 18K+18
• Veteran IV: 20K+42, or 22K+21
• Senior: 24K+48, or 32K+24
• Master: 40K+60, or 52K+30

Or whatever. — SMcCandlish ツ 08:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't agree with that; I think it's better to keep it as extremely simple as possible. Herostratus 05:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

OK. I'll mark this "Resolved"; it was just an idea, not something I felt strongly about. If others later on do feel strongly about it they can un"Resolved" the topic. — SMcCandlish ツ 13:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"New" doesn't make sense

The moment I make my first edit I'm a "New Editor", logically. I think this should be renamed "Novice" or some other term roughly meaning "newbie". — SMcCandlish ツ 08:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

• That makes sense. I went ahead and made the change. Herostratus 05:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Veteran" II-IV are a bit dull

The title repetition isn't very imaginative. Surely we can do better? What "sounds" like it belongs between "Veteran" and "Senior" without getting too militaristic? Some suggestions, in no particular order: Tenured, Professorial, Seasoned, Magna Cum Laude, Summa Cum Laude, Accomplished, Consummate, Viruoso. (Also, Veteran could be moved up one or more notches, if needed.) — SMcCandlish ツ 08:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

How about

• Veteran —> Veteran
• Veteran II —> Seasoned Veteran
• Veteran III —> Grizzled Veteran
• Veteran IV —> Tenured Veteran

I left "veteran" as part of each because of the similarity in the badges. If that's not such a big deal, I'd propose

• Veteran —> Seasoned
• Veteran II —> Veteran
• Veteran III —> Grizzled Veteran
• Veteran IV —> Tenured

Mishatx *разговор* 02:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• Veteran —> Seasoned Editor
• Veteran II —> Veteran Editor
• Veteran III —> Grizzled Veteran Editor
• Veteran IV —> Tenured Editor

would work for me. — SMcCandlish ツ 03:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Works for me, too. Mishatx *разговор* 20:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Should we wait for Herostratus to come along, or should one of us just change it? *Mishatx*-In\Out 08:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I support the change but I think we should give ] some more time to come along and comment. Johntex\ 09:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, wait a while. There's not huge hurry or anything. :-). (But just to be clear: H. does not "control" this document; it is in "Misplaced Pages:" namespace now. I say this mainly so that it is on the record in case some crank in a month or five years would like to cite this talk page and say "I don't support Herostratus's candidancy because of WP:OWN issues." Our action delay for H.'s input should not be taken as anything but involved-editor courtesy.) — SMcCandlish ツ 11:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, absolutely, I don't WP:OWN the page and this is a wiki, any editor can make any improvements they wish. However, it was nice of you to solicit my input. Here's what I think: I like it the way it is. I can't exactly put my finger on why... I'll try. There are basically two divisions, one with the small star and ribbon and one with the large star. In the first, the designation in the left-hand column changes with each level, and the badge is a ribbon with a small star; the ribbon changes color (and gains pips) but the star does not. In the second division, in the left-hand column, the designation does not change with each level (except toward the end); it remains some variation of "Veteran Editor"; the ribbon does not change (except to gain stars) but the main star does.

I guess what I'm thinking is that there the first division is a kind of preliminary division, with each level changing name, until one reaches the level of Veteran Editor, and (until one reaches the very highest levels) one stays at that level, with variations only in the numerical designation (I, II, III, etc.).

I dunno. It seems orderly and nice to me. But that's just my opinion.

Also... regarding "Grizzled" Veteran etc, remember that the left column is the formal version, as it were, so it should not seem too playful, in my opinion. The right column is of course a different matter. Herostratus 15:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Gee, who cares what you think ;). No, I understood the consistency between those four levels and that's why my first proposal kept the word "veteran" in each one. I used "grizzled" because it gets used in semi-formal contexts quite a bit, and frankly I was out of adjectives. *Mishatx*-In\Out

I understand that reasoning too. I guess it auto-asks: Is the vet. consistency more important than differentiation, and is there some way to combine the two (perhaps by replacing "Veteran" with something else that lends itself to adjectives better)? — SMcCandlish ツ 20:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The edit-count jump for Master is a bit much

I'd cut that down, in proportion to the rest of them, to 32000. Starting with Veteran, all of the jumps are 4000 new edits plus 6 months more service, so the jump from Senior to Master should logically be 8K more if it is 6 extra months (12 total). A jump of 16K edits is expecting 3 years' worth of wikiwork in 1 year all of a sudden! Necessarily the numbers in #More flexible requirements above would also have to be adjusted, to

• Senior: 24K+48, or 28K+45
• Master: 32K+60, or 36K+54

in the first example, or

• Senior: 24K+48, or 28K+24
• Master: 32K+60, or 36K+30

in the second, using the same formulas.

Or maybe have it be 10K more, instead of 8, for the 12mo. total to get from Senior to Master, with concommittant edits to the more flexible requirements if either were adopted:

• Senior: 24K+48, or 29K+45
• Master: 34K+60, or 37K+54

in the first example, or

• Senior: 24K+48, or 29K+24
• Master: 34K+60, or 37K+30

in the second (or rounded up in the second so that the 29s are 30s, and the 37s are 38s, since part of the goal of the 2nd example was rounder numbers than the more complicated formula produced in the first.)

Under a revision like this, really prolific editors, who practically live on WP, would be rewarded with an early Master (or whatever rank, under the "More flexible requirements" system), while those who dawdle still won't be rewarded for long "service" if they haven't actually be doing much of anything. Thoughts?

— SMcCandlish ツ 08:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, master is the very highest and last level, so it should be a bit hard to accomplish. The large jump in edit numbers was made to reflect this, granted that it doesn't follow a straight linear additive model. As to edit counts, I'd point out that a lot of people are very wary of "editcountits" or over-emphasis on number of edits for anything (e.g., qualification for administratorship). If Service Awards were based solely on edit counts this page probably would have been deleted out of hand, for this reason. There's something to this, since a 5,000-edit editor could have been much more productive than a 25,000-edit editor, depending on the nature of the edits. On the other hand, I don't hold with with extreme anti-editcountitis folks who believe that edits mean absolutely nothing.Herostratus 05:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. "Resolved"ing this one too. — SMcCandlish ツ 13:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Not still a Burba, not yet a Grognard

I believe that there is quite some jump between Burba and Grogrard. I propose a new service award for editors contributing 3 months and 1000 edits. I do not yet have a name for it. Anyone agree with me? Greeves 01:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't see any harm in it. If one of my above flexibility proposals were accepted, it could be worked in rather easily. — SMcCandlish ツ 05:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. I used the terms "Apprentice" (which I'm not too crazy about, maybe someone can suggest a better term) and "Novato", which is Portugese for "Beginner", according to Babelfish; for images, a blue ribbon with no pips (no significance to the color, just picked at random) and a picture-book. Herostratus 05:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Templates for transclusion?

I just wish I could translude these awards so I'd know when the title changed (like when "new" went to "novice"). Or am I missing something? *Mishatx*-In\Out 16:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Templating these things probably wouldn't be all that hard, though it might make customized use (see my user page) a tiny bit more difficult. Since probably no one is using the top levels yet, I would keep the templates as subpages of this page, to avoid "Template patrollers" who trawl the "Template:" namespace looking for disused templates to send to WP:TFD. — SMcCandlish ツ 20:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

How to find your edit count

How do you know how many edits you have? - SeriousCat 09:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I found the tool. Sorry for asking this here - SeriousCat 09:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

For other users' future reference, you can get a really great edit stats report here:

http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate

Hope that helps. — SMcCandlish ツ 10:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I still think the numbers are off-kilter

I think someone (who knows the user stats tools better than I do) needs to do some averaging of regularly active (not all) user stats to arrive at numbers that track length of service better. By the time I reach Veteran Editor I (in time served) I will easily have the edit count of a Veteran Editor IV, probably higher. And I'm not nearly as active as some users, esp. avid RCP participants. I realize the proposal I came up with up above somewhere was too complicated, but right now numbers are just kind of "off". Either the time requirements need to come downward for the higher "honors", or the edit count requirements need to go up. — SMcCandlish ツ 00:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, some thoughts on that. First of all, remember that counting edits is considered to be a Very Bad Thing by many editors... so I guess the awards are primarily for length of service... the edit counts are mostly to make sure that the person has been an active editor... Also, a lot of editors don't do recent changes patrol etc, they are working on articles, hence their count might be lower. Suppose the level for Veteran Editor was raised to (say) 12,000 edits. Would you tell someone with 2 years service but "only" 11,000 edits that they are not qualified for that level. Herostratus 16:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the numbers for edits should probably be higher than they are now. I'll give two reasons. 1. Some users do have a lot of edits to there user space (I know there has been some debate on this before but I do think it's a significant point). 2. Some users (like myself) edit and then make another 2 or 3 subsequent edits to correct spelling and grammer errors (I think I've made 4 just putting this comment in), so even though I'm up over 4000 edits right now, in my heart I know it's probably closer to 1000 or so quality edits. Somebody who's not as conceitious or thoughtful as me is going to not care about such things and go by the base criteria.--Dr who1975 21:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Some people use preview and don't make grammar mistakes and typo's, and the same user's probably made only 5 edits to their user page. So no, the edit counts should not go higher. That's the disadvantage of generalizing an editor based on their editcount. Garion96 (talk) 21:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah... Im bad about using the preview function (it's like I'm worried my computer will crash and everything I've written will be lost if I don't save it immediatly... I'm working on being better about using it though). In any event, I wasn't advocating an across the board raise in the number of edits maybe just making Tutnum 10,000 and moving each of the other edit requirments down a level Novice 1000, Apprentice 2000, Journeyman 4000, Yeoman 6000, and Expert/Established 8000, this would progressively raise the floor and give newbies more to strive for.--Dr who1975 23:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Just as an aside, a high userspace edit count doesn't mean anything at all, definitively speaking. Many editors appear to have spent a lot of time futzing around in their user pages when what they've actually being doing is building Good Article-class articles in their sandboxes before posting them to articlespace. Quite a few do that. — SMcCandlish ツ 22:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Argh, novato

I'm not totally at peace with the title of "novato" for the second level, informal side. Reasons being (1) unlike the other titles on the informal side, it has a meaning that can be pretty easily discerned (2) It's really too close to the word "novice", which is a title for a different level on the formal side (3) It means "beginner, novice" so it shouldn't be at the second level when novice is really level one.

Not sure what if it's worthwhile to change it and what to change it to, but if it were to be changed some notions that come into my head are:

1. Hodad. This is 1960's surfer slang for a "wannabe" surfer. Contraindication: not too many know this word, but those that do might find it demeaning to be labeled a wannabe
2. Mank. A homophone of manque which is French for "wannabe". Contraindication: practically a loan word, it's used often enough that a few people will know its meaning, and ditto as above.
3. Nubkin or Pipkin, which don't mean anything. Contraindication: pretty cutesy - maybe too cutesy. Herostratus 18:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I like "hodad". In the context of a skilled activity like surfing or skateboarding (where the term was also used) there is no effective difference between "wannabe" and "newbie"; indeed, the very label of "wannabe" is generally only a pretend-insult, the point of which is to spur the person so-labelled to develop their skill level and evolve out of that label's applicability. Been there, done that. >;-) — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 22:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I wonder...

...if it would be a good idea to add levels at 9 months, 1 1/4 year (15 months) and 1 3/4 year (21 months). On the formal side, this could be implemented by adding a dangly to the star or something, and adding "II" to the level name. On the informal side it would be harder... It's a bit of work to come up with new graphics and names... the informal side could just be left alone, or a "II" could be added without adding a new graphic... hm. Herostratus 19:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. The more levels there are, up to a point, the more use it will get. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 22:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Naming

Could we change the names? Tutnum and Grognard just sounds kinda silly. Also, can't we think up more names for the various veteran editor ranks? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• Meh. The left hand column is supposed to be informal and maybe a little silly, so I dunno. As to veterna I-IV, I dunno... suggestions? Herostratus 02:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Barnstars

This seems to be a functional duplicate of Misplaced Pages:Barnstars, so I've redirected it there. Please migrate your barnstars, etc, to that page. --Tony Sidaway 21:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Has nothing to do with barnstars at all. Reverting your undiscussed, unilateral deletion. If you have an issue with this take it up at WP:MFD (again). — SMcCandlish 21:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The word to use isn't "unilateral", except insofar as all edits on a wiki, being necessarily performed by a single person, can be described as unilateral. I did not delete anything; rather I redirected the page to a page that seems to me to be functionally identical. It's an awards page and the awards here probably should all be listed on Misplaced Pages:Barnstars where they will be seen by all interested in making awars.

You say that this award page "has nothing to do with barnstars at all." Could you please explain this? --Tony Sidaway 22:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, can you please stop describing good-faith edits by established editors as vandalism? I fail tos ee how this was designed to compromise the integrity of the encyclopaedia. Guy (Help!) 22:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tony on this one; quite frankly, I can't see any sort of need for this point. Furthermore, reverting a good-faith edit with the simple edit summary of 'rvv' runs contrary to WP:AGF, and while I don't think that a straight-out redirect was the smartest thing to do, I do believe Tony was acting in good faith. Veinor 22:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems like an awful lot of formality for, essentially, a superfluous process. Especially if it is supposed to be separate from the Barnstars. An odd area of the project to see instruction creep...why can't it be redirected to Barnstars? --InkSplotch 22:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn't notice who did the page-blanking until after the fact; probably 25% of my WP time is spent reverting vandalism, and this looked very much like vandalism. I recognize of course that Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs) is in fact an experienced editor. That said, defying a clear consensus to keep this page and keep it separate by blanking the page and redirecting it somewhere, without any discussion, doesn't strike me as constructive Wikipedianism. Nor does restoring his page-blanking simply to deliver a statement to someone who reverted him with an edit summary one disagrees with; user talk pages exist for a reason. — SMcCandlish 22:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Could we get beyond your evident shock at the idea that someone might actually edit this page? It's a wiki.

Now I've asked a question, the import of which was to ask you to explain how this page differs from Barnstars, simple graphical awards to be given by editors to one another. I won't badger you, but I would like to know why these are so different that they have to have their own page. --Tony Sidaway 22:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal doesn't really equate to an "edit", except in the most technical sense. Anyway, the question you ask has already been answered in great detail at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Service awards. The super-short version is that WP:SERVICE badges are not "given by editors to one another", they're auto-assigned, in essence. — SMcCandlish 22:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm not proposing deletion, so the answer to my question won't be found on a deletion discussion. You say you think that this award page is not at all functionally identical to Misplaced Pages:Barnstars. Could you please, in your own words, explain this opinion? Then perhaps we can get somewhere. --Tony Sidaway 23:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I apologize more explicitly for the "Rvv" edit summary; as I said at your talk page, I was in the process of adding a "uw-delete" warning when I realized you were "someone"; I don't recall ever seeing a previously MfD-surviving projectpage being blanked and redirected, so it looked like vandalism. Nothing personal. Anyway, the MfD actually does cover the issue pretty well, as the "how is this any different from barnstars?" question arose there. But since you've asked for it, my personal summary would be that they serve completely different pruposes. WP:BARNSTAR is a list of awards in various categorizations that one editor can award to another editor. Last I looked, there were no exceptions at all, no overlap with other functions. WP:SERVICE templates are not of this nature. They are auto-assigned, simply for having completed a level of service to the encyclopedia. The only thing non-automated about it is that one has to add the template to one's own userpage (which is a good thing; some editors feel that any tracking of time or edits is a Bad Thing, leading to "editcountitis"; WP:SERVICE "medals" shouldn't be forced on them of course). They are like the short "years of service" bars many police uniforms have at the bottom left sleeve, as contrasted with rank on the upper part of both sleeves or on the lapels or epaulets (which I guess would be comparable to adminship/bureacratship), and meritorious service medals on the left breast pocket (comparable to barnstars, in a sense), to continue the metaphor. Putting WP:SERVICE templates on the barnstar page would be a lot like putting the "An article you wrote or signficantly contributed to..." templates for WP:GA, WP:FA and and WP:DYK on the barnstars page, along with other auto-assigned award-like user templates. The barnstars page simply doesn't serve a function that broad. I suppose an argument could be made that it should, but that should probably be discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:Barnstars. —SMcCandlish 23:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not that I'm someone (I'm not). It's that you treated a pretty reasonable redirect edit as vandalism. But you've apologised and there's no issue there. It's over and in any case it was never a big deal for me. I don't mind if someone incorrectly calls one of my edit vandalism.

Your explanation is interesting. I didn't really understand, at first, that these were awards that one awards to oneself.

What value does a self-administered award have? Is there a "King of the wiki" award? --Tony Sidaway 02:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)