Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:15, 4 May 2005

Archiving

I have archived large parts of the old talk pages. I have left the table with the various census up as it might become useful for the page - I really think it should go in there. teh talk relate dto it should then go into /Archive 2. The "Lithuanian Version" should after resolution of current ongoing debate go at the top of /Archive 3 Refdoc 15:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1. /Early discussions
2. /Archive 2
3. /Archive 3

Census Data

Maybe this will help you (data about nationalities exist only for several years). :

basic Lithuanian version

I think disputes never have been resolved if falsificated polish version will be as a basic. I think Lithuanian version have to be the basic.

Main reasons:

1) Center of Ethnic Lithuania

Vilnius for centuries was the geografical center of Ethnic Lithuania. Lithuania Propria or Ethnic Lithuania is the former Vilnius Vojvodship, Trakai Vojvodship, Samogitian County (Žemaičių Seniūnija Lithuanian) (adminitrative division of Grand Duchy of Lithuania of 1566 , Lithuania Minor (Mažoji Lietuva Lithuanian) and northern part of Palenkė (Polexia)(untill river Naura (Narev). In 18th century Vileika and Dysna districts of Vilnius Vojvodship and the northern part of Palenkė were Lithuanian - Ruthenian mixed;

Very important point - Vilnius was center of Ethnic Lithuania, not of GDL -> see historical maps. Živinbudas

Fine with me. However, we'd have to describe that it changed with time. Halibutt 16:18, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Of course. But I have to warn that those results weren't friendly to poles until polish occupation of Eastern Lithuania (1920 - 1939). Živinbudas

Were there any censae organised there before 1897? Feel free to add them. I know there was a city census (or rather the list of hoseholds) organised in 1657, but I thought that the results were lost during WWII. Do you have them? Halibutt 19:59, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

• Introduced into the article geographic centre of settled area. Refdoc 22:09, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How do you know that: "Until the end of the 19th century it also formed the geographic centre of the Lithianian settled areas". Where did you find this information ? Wojsyl 22:29, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I deduced this from above. Halibutt appeared to accept this. Refdoc 22:48, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I wonder what exactly was "Lithuanian settled areas" in 19th century. I think Halibutt firstly expressed that it changed with time and then was surprised at data as of before 1897. If this was centre of a Lithuanian settled area in 19th century then where did the Belarusians go ? It may be right, but some explanations to support it would be helpful before it enters the article. No, I'm not trying to be difficult here, just cautious. Wojsyl 23:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll change "Until the end of the 19th century" into a bit weaker "Initially" until futher confirmed. Wojsyl 06:11, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

2) 2001 census

Regarding 2001 census in Vilnius live 57,8 percent of Lithuanians;

The census as such is included. Please provide evidence for (slightly) higher result of Lithuanians than currently in article (57 vs 56%). Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please see Lithuanian Misplaced Pages Vilnius. Živinbudas

According to the official census data (available from the website of Lithuanian Statistic Office) there were 542.287 inhabitants of the city of Vilnius the day the census was organised. Of them, 313.424 reported Lithuanian nationality, which gives roughly 57,7967% of the total population of the municipality. So, our insulting friend is right on this one. The data is available here. Halibutt 16:42, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

But I was informed that you are insulted (?). Its strange. Živinbudas

According to a different source , (table 5.8 thereof) the total population in 2001 was 553904 including 318510 Lithuanian. Why are these numbers different ? I must be missing or misinterpreting something. Help ! Wojsyl 17:02, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Who is the author of the second source? The first one has some implicit reliability I would say. Refdoc 17:06, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's Lithuanian Statistic Office again. Wojsyl

The difference is whether you count the city of Vilnius or Vilnius municipality. Check the numbers here (at the bottom of the page). The percentage should be almost the same for both areas. Halibutt 17:16, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

I think this explains the minor difference in percentages. What's the differenence between Vilnius and Vilnius municipality anyway, and which one should be considered here ? Wojsyl 18:30, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Judging by the number of inhabitants, the difference must be very small. Halibutt 19:47, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

• data for city rather than municipality introduced. The old data actually divided the citys ethnic numbers by the municipalitys total number.. Refdoc 22:11, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I think you're producing false data this way. Maybe rvt to municipality, where at least all numbers and percentages were correct (and coherent) ? Wojsyl 22:22, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

3) Vilnius and Voruta

Vilnius is known as a settlement from Mesolith times, later it was the Balts' setlement and from 9th century it was medieval city (archeological findings). It was the main Lithuanian city when Lithuanian State was established in 12th century. Mindaugas didn't have the permanent capital (as all monarches of that time), but Vilnius was his main city. He built the first church of Lithuania - Cathedral of Vilnius - here and probably was crowned as a King here. Gediminas made Vilnius permanent capital of Lithuania in the early 14th century (first mentioned in writing sources as already capital city in 1323, The Letters of Gediminas). Vilnius all the time of its existence was in Balts' and Lithuanians' ethnic teritory. First foreigners (mainly Germans, Ruthenians and Jews settled in the city after invitation of them by Gediminas after 1323. Until late 19th century Lithuanians always were the biggest community of the city;

Everything related to main city and crowning of Mindaugas here are sort of "probably maybe". There were foreigners in Vilnius before Gediminas invited Germans. Dirgela 16:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Large parts of this are included. The cathedral and crowning bit should be added The exact population counts/percentages are a matter of dispute and should be treated as such. I propose a section on census and population shift history with inclusion of all relevant disputes etcRefdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Many points are very important. 1) Gediminas didn't "establish" Vilnius "as a village" (very funny), Vilnius was medieval city from 9th century (archeological findings). It couldn't obtain Magdeburg rights earlier because Lithuania wasn't christian country; 2) very important stresses are that Vilnius was main city of Mindaugas and became a permanent capital of Lithuania under Gediminas in early 14th century; 3) Letters of Gediminas to Hansa towns in 1323, not letter; 4) Foreighners as larger groups settled in Vilnius only after 1323 (invitation by Gediminas in Letters); 5) Lithuanians (not only Lithuanian speakers) always were the largest community in Vilnius until 19th century. Živinbudas

As to Voruta being identified with Vilnius - it's quite arguable and even Lithuanian historians dispute it. Others identify the place with Kernave or simply say it was a misinterpretation of the Lithuanian word for capital. As to the Lithuanian speakers being the majority in the city prior to 19th century, we'd have to find some proof for that. Halibutt 16:55, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is disputed thing. But larger arguments for Vilnius are: 1) it was larger settlement (city) in Lithuania then, and 2) Mindaugas built Cathedral and probably began to build Vilnius Lower Castle here. Živinbudas

I think it's enough to agree here that this is being disputed. We don't need to decide which version is more probable here. Even if only for the sake of brevity. Do you agree ? Wojsyl 18:34, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We could include the disputed part in the article, simply saying it is dispputed: 'There is also a disputed (or yet unconifmed) theory that...' or sth along this line. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:58, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes. In fact that how it reads already: "Some historians identify the city with Voruta, a forgotten capital of King Mindaugas". I think it's pretty neutral already. Wojsyl 14:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Guys, please remember that article is about Vilnius, not about history of Vilnius, so there is no need nor sense to include all possible ideas about history of Vilnius here. Let's save it for History of Vilnius article. Dirgela 16:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

4) Lithuanian names

Because the pages are on Lithuania and Vilnius topics (not on "Poland") we should use the Lithuanian names of official State positions and Lithuanian names of rulers of Lithuania. In Lithuania after 1392 the rulers were Grand Dukes. There was Supreme Duke of Lithuania Jogaila (since 1386) (not "Wladislaus II of Poland"), Grand Duke of Lithuania Žygimantas Senasis (not "Sigismund II of Poland"), Grand Duke of Lithuania Steponas Batoras (not "Stefan I of Poland");

I largely agree - i.e. I agree with regard to positions. "Grand Duke" shoudl take preference for "King of Poland" . I have some doubts with regard to the names as these are names known in English speaking countries. Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If we speak about Lithuania we should use Lithuanian dignities. I agree, we could use Latin names (as in documents) (as usualy is in English Historiography, but should added Lithuanian names - no use of polish names and dignities in Lithuanian topics. Živinbudas

As these people were all in personal union "Grand Duke of Lithuania" and "King of Poland" it is only helpful to the reader to make this clear. Also we should use the name as established in English. In the relevant personal page we can then put teh various national names. This is good practice across Misplaced Pages Refdoc 16:04, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But I never saw that in English textes about Poland they use Lithuanian dignities and names. Its strange. Živinbudas

Note that the Kings/Grand Dukes are referred to by their English names here, not by their Polish names. Compare the List of Polish rulers with its Polish version. Halibutt 16:57, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

To be precise - Latin names. See my commentary above. Živinbudas

Well, it is an English encyclopedia. There is a Latin one too. Refdoc 17:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is not article about Lithuania or about Poland but about Vilnius. Nobody denies that Vilnius is Lithuanian town, but please also respect its history, even if it was not 100% Lithuanian history. It's also neither Polish nor Lithuanian version of wikipedia, but English. Therefore we should not be using Polish or Lithuanian names but English. Wojsyl 18:40, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Of course, a Lithuanian name will be mentioned a first time each such name is used. And Polish one too, since it is customary to give the most important regional variants. But the English name should be used in the next occurrences. See Misplaced Pages:Naming. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:05, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

5) Neris

Lithuanians always called main river of Vilnius Neris, never Vilija;

I think both names are currently included Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In earlier version there is false statement, that Lithuanians use "Vilija" as well. Živinbudas

"Vilija" is Belarusian for Neris AFAIK. Belarusian was an official language in Lithuania for centuries. We should be refering to the river as Neris today, because it's an official Lithuanian name and I don't think there exist any alternative English name (?) Wojsyl 18:44, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

6) Rossa Cemetery

When were established and later there were Rasų cemetery (from rasa Lithuanian - dew English) and Medininkų Gate (from castle and settlement Medininkai);

All these buildings etc are mentioned or should be mentioned Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Polish names in text about Lithuania are not correct. There isn't Lithuanian Rasų cemetery at all in previous version. Živinbudas

Note that what is now the Rasu Cemetery was established 1769 by Bazyli Miller, a Polish-German mayor of the city, in what was then the Rossa suburb (from Polish Rosa - dew). It wasn't until the 1801 expansion that the place started to be called Cmentarz na Rossie - Rossa Cemetery in English - which was the official name for that place until 1939. The Rasų kapinė name is a tad later. And usage of modern names when mentioning foundation seems quite strange to me.

Anyway, both places should be mentioned in the article (especially that I started both these articles ;) )Halibutt 17:04, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Ah, you started. Now many goes clearier. You mean Lithuanian-German (Litwin-German) mayor of the city? Živinbudas

"Bazyli Miller, the mayor of Wilno" (without mentioning his nationality, which seems irrelevant here). OK ? Wojsyl 18:54, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Basileus Müller? A German? Mayor?? This must be mentioned otherwise I go into a revert war!!! ;-) Refdoc 18:58, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I hoped you wouldn't notice ;-) Wojsyl

7) Third partition

There was Third Partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1795, not Poland (see explanation on Talk: Lithuania);

This is changed and is an appropriate change.Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is very important. Živinbudas

Although it is quite disputable whether the PLC existed after the May Constitution. Halibutt 17:12, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

No any doubts. See Talk: Lithuania. Živinbudas

While remarkable as a document, I guess the May constitution is really only an expression of a dying state, torn apart by its neighbours. And the death is not the death of Poland but that of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. So to call it the partition of the PLC appears to me rather more correct than anything else. This is quite irrespective of the legacy, foundational myth and inspiration provided by the May constitution to future Polish aspirations. tThe four remaining years under a differnt name do not really count IMHO Refdoc 17:54, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, 4 years is the hell lot of time. Consider what happened to Vilnius between 1918 and 1922. If we pretend that four years do not really count, than Vilnius magically became Polish after the end of WWI. Wojsyl 19:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In some ways you are obviously right. In other ways, despite the terrible to's and fro's of e.g. 1917-1921 of Soviet October revolution are slowly getting subsumed into revolution + revolutionary wars. So i woudl say 4 years in the 18th century are somehow "less" time, than 4 years in teh 20th century - particularly as the 4 years of new constitution had litte or no consequence wrt Polish/Lithuanian relationship or did they? Refdoc 19:15, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

BTW for those 4 years what was the name of the country? Refdoc 19:57, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In English books on history you would usually find "Partitions of Poland" not "Partitions of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth", even ig we know that it might not be correct, but let's remember that it is English wikipedia and not a forum to express our ambitions that Lithuanian is sometimes not mentioned in English texts in all cases together with Poland. So I find it unimportant. Dirgela 17:50, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

8) Taryba

The Restoration of Independence of Lithuania was proclaimed by Lithuanian Taryba on February 16, 1918 in Vilnius. Germany recognized The Independent Lithuanian State on March 23, 1918 (as a first state in the world) in borders of Grand Duchy of Lithuania until the Third Partition of Commonwealth in 1795 with capital Vilnius. Taryba started to establish the state institutions. The first Cabinet of Ministers was established on November 11, 1918 in Vilnius. The first Prime Minister became Augustinas Voldemaras. On November 23, 1918 the Lithuanian Army was officialy established in Vilnius and formation of first Regiment of Gediminas started. This work was delayed because of Bolsheviks' invasion from the east in late December, 1918. Then armed formations of local poles showed in the city. It were slight forces and there weren't conflictes with Lithuanian forces. Lithuanian government decided temporary to leave the capital, because of Reds' invasion, and retreated to Kaunas. Lithuanian Tricolor Flag waved on Gediminas Tower until the entering of Reds. Vilnius was occupied by Bolsheviks on January 5, 1919. Lokal polish "forces" didn't play any important role in Lithuania's context and could be easily neutralised by Lithuanian Army. On June 30, 1918 in Berlin was reached an agreement between Lithuanian and Polish authorities in which Poles obligated to recognize The Independent Lithuania with capital Vilnius and support her. However the things went to other side;

In the Act of Restoration of Independence of Lithuania Lithuanian Taryba declares that it restores Lithuanian state in "ethnographic boundaries", and there is anything about boundaries of Lithuanian Grand Duchy until Third Partition. Remarks on Lithuanian ativities in Vilnius in 1918-1919 are relevant as they were not included in the version of the page at least when I first saw it. Dirgela 18:15, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Large parts of this are included. Some are not so much part of the history of the town and as of the history of Lithuania. Th e role and significance of Polish troups is then obviously something you intend to dispute. This is your right, but you shoudl bring some evidence. Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This text is extremely important, because poles would like to veil organizing of Lithuanian state in 1918 in Vilnius . Facts about marginal character of lokal polish forces is widely known in historiography. Živinbudas

Interestingly, we are touching German POV again. Taryba was closely collaborating with Germans occupying the city at that time. In June 1918 Taryba elected German prince Wilhelm Herzog von Urach, Graf von Württemberg as king elect (under the name of Mendog II). Lithuania in 1918 was a German puppet state and Germany initially refused the right to elect Lithuanian State Council. However this not last long. Germany were losing WWI and in December Lithuanians created a new communistic government of V. Kapsukas and obviously broke all earlier alliances with Germany. Also in December 1918 Lenin recognised Lithuania as being under Soviet jurisdiction. Later Lithuania, while claiming neutrality, allowed Soviet troops to pass through its territory into Poland. Just my 3 cents on the background. Any comments ? :-) Wojsyl 19:47, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

To call Lithuania a puppet state of Germany in 1918 is not correct. First until november 1918 it was not functioning as a state and the role of Tarybas was very limited. Lithuania was under German occupation and Germany tried to play with Taryba and issued its recognition only to have formal support of Lithuania in Brest-Litovsk talks, later Germany largely ignored Taryba. "Lithuanians" in context of the communist government should be used with caution. Only a part of Lithuanians supported communists and mainly there were Red army had its shoe. Lenin did not recognize Lithuania as being under his jurisdiction, he recognized Lithuanian Soviet Republic as independent state. Lithuanian Soviet Republic never claimed neutrality and Lithuanian Republic was fighting with Red army at the same time when Poles did it. So if you want to know my opinion Wojsyl you are writing such a nonsense that I suspect you do this on purpose. Which is not funny btw. as there is enough obstruction here without you. Dirgela 18:15, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

All right. Anyway, this topic is hardly related to Vilnius article but rather to History of Lithuania. Wojsyl 19:29, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think collaborating is one way of expressing it but POV, Taryba would have described himself as allied with Germany... Where is the line of continueity - Taryba or Kapsukas? Refdoc 19:54, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As to the chain of traditions and continuity, I guess that post-WWI Lithuania was a continuation of Taryba rather than Kapsukas' clique, especially that it had rather rightist governments afterwards.

As to the original set of remarks by our anon: this matter is extremely complex and I believe it is bugged both in Polish and Lithuanian history books. If we mention the Lithuanian authorities and military formations formed in the city by name, then we should also mention the Polish ones. Perhaps they are not important to our anon friend, but they were IRL. The forces of local "self-defence" and Polska Organizacja Wojskowa might've been small, but certainly were not smaller than the abovementioned Lithuanian regiment. And after all it was them and not the Lithuanian unit who tried to defend the city against the Bolsheviks. If we fail to mention both sides of the story, then we might end up with a map of mighty Lithuania looking like this: . :) Halibutt 20:31, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

It could be mentioned that Taryba was quite nationalistic, and that most of national minorities in Lithuania at that time (Polish included) did not recognize it as any legal representation. But as Halibutt wrote, this is very complex and there are no easy answers. I'm not sure if these issues need to be deeply discussed in an article about Vilnius. Maybe just mention that it's highly controversial ? Wojsyl 21:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Only Polish minority did not recognize Taryba, germans, belorussians and jews had their members in it. Dirgela 18:15, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We deal with really and still different point of view here. For example, if Lithuania already were independent state, its politics might be turned to collaborate with any state including Germany or not to collaborate with any state, including Poland (I hint almost directly here). Taryba intended to found the independent state and Germans were our allies. The problem was, that Lithuanian Poles appreciated all this as perfidy. Lithuanians saw this collaborating with Germans as an optimal and quite incredible chance to restore Lithuania as state. But it all yet more alienated Poles from the idea of Lithuanian independence.

What concerns question of a puppet state, I myself don't understand what question is here, if not some ambitions. Taryba not only was restricted as central power institution in Lithuania by Germans, but almost not allowed to act in this role (till German revolution). De facto, we can say, the state of Lithuania even not existed then. De jure, Lithuania had been recognized by Germany as quasi independent state, but the recognition was being fulfilled very slowly.

On other hand, when stressing this dependence of Lithuania from Germany, some Lithuanians perhaps accept it as allusions to Polish then accusations, that Lithuanians helped Germans to separate one part of historical Poland from the new Poland. Later development showed, that Antante states start to foster Lithuania after the German capitulation and Lithuania remained independent state, taking off reality of these accusations.

What concerns the succession of then Lithuanian ruling, Lithuanian bolsheviks didn't intended to create an independent state. Kapsukas was asked by Lenin to create “independent Soviet republic” as temporary state for tactic purposes. Kapsukas didn't want do it himself before asked. Taryba not only proclaimed the independence, tried to implement it collaborating with Germans, but also ruled (already more real as a state than earlier) Lithuania after German capitulation under, as I've said, fostering of Antante till the elections of the Constituent Assambley (Constituent Seimas). So this question is out of a doubt.

I should add here that no state or nation before becoming independent wasn't dependent, puppet state, semi-independent or something like it. So, I don't understand the significance of rising this question here at all. Perhaps, to avoid all disagreements, we should stress that Lithuania became really independent in few years, was recognized by nations of the world and became a member of theLeague of Nations? (perhaps only it doesn't concern question of Vilnius directly)

Linas lituanus 14:01, 2005 Apr 15 (UTC)

9) Lithuanian-Soviet Treaty

On July 12, 1920 in Moscow was signed the Treaty of Peace between Lithuania and Soviet Russia where Soviet Russia recognized The Independent Republic of Lithuania with capital Vilnius and Brėslauja (Braslav), Ašmena (Ošmjany), Lyda (Lida) and Gardinas (Grodno). This treatment is in force until now and was confirmed in 1926 Treatment of nonaggression and in 1934 Prolongation of Treatment of nonaggression . On the base of this treatmaent capital and teritories were returned to the Republic of Lithuania on July, 1920;

The first half is included. The reconfirmation of the contract in 1926 and 1934 is only of significance if it includes a Soviet acceptance fo Vilnius as the lIthuanian capital. Please provide evidence for this. If true than this would be an interesting addition - it would to some degree explain why Vilnius was added back to Lithuania and not left with Poland or given to Belarus by Stalin. Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was under the impression that Soviets had plans to create a Soviet Socialist Republic of Lithuania, and those plans were made obsolete by the Polish victory at Warsaw. Only then did the Soviet decide to transfer Vilno to the Republic of Lithuania, as a better alternative (for the Soviets) then having Vilno fall directly to advancing Polish armies. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, on the very day of signing the treaty, Soviet backed Lithuanian Communistic Party called Lithuanian proletariat to establish Soviet rule in the country. Later in August Lenin asked Kapsukas to postpone the communistic revolution in Lithuania as he considered the moment to be inappropriate in face of Soviet defeat at Warsaw (Lenin's telegram to Kapuskas of August 20). I believe this explains Soviet interest in Vilnius. Wojsyl 20:43, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This part is extremely important because of showing, that country which captured Lithuania for 120 years before, after always recognized its Independence with capital Vilnius. Pact of nonagression of 1926 and Prolongation of Pact of nonagression of 1934 where was confirmed Treaty of Peace (which include treaty of borders with capital Vilnius and Eastern Lithuania) of July 12, 1920 is widely known in Historiography. Živinbudas

Are you aware of Moscow specifically endorsing Vilnius as capital of Lithuania in the interbellum after the Conference of Ambassadors accepted the Polish annexation? I would be very surprised if Stalin allowed a small country like Lithuania to tie him down in such matters. Could you provide a link to the ENglish translation of the treaties of 1926 and 1934 or at leats Lithuanian, Russian or Polish versions so that someone here could confirm this? If confirmed than this would be a valuable addition. Otehrwise I would suggest we keep it on file until you are able to bring the text from the treaties to all our attention. This is not to single you out, but it is the standard procedure if controversial material is introduced. Refdoc 16:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is undeniable factes. And very good known in historical circles. To provide what you ask need a time. Živinbudas

That is fine. Once you have provided this we will include it. The text grows slowly and can gradually be improved. No problem if this particular bit is included today or in three weeks. Refdoc 17:02, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

10) Elections in Central Lithuania

Polish army after the staged mutinity, broking all international treaties and obligations craftily occupied Vilnius on October 9, 1920. Then puppet militaries proclaimed "separate state" of "Central Lithuania" (Litwa Srodkowa Polish). Liga of Nations protested. They rejected all proposals of Liga of Nations to organise FREE PLEBISCITE after the withdrawal of occupation polish forces from these areas . There were organised falsificated "elections" to "parliament" of "Central Lithuania" under Polish occupation army. Liga of Nations never recognized those "elections" as legal. Then "parliament" of "Central Lithuania" "affiliated" "Central Lithuania" to Poland in 1922. Liga of Nations again didn't recognize that "incorporation". However Conference of Ambasadors (not Liga of Nations itself) fixed status quo after the rejecting of Lithuania and Poland of Project of Hymans ;

All this has now been included, marking teh points of dispute. Relevant sections have been NPOVed.Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What was wrong with the elections? How was the Vilno/Central Lithuania parliament elected? Were ballot box switched or false voting cards dumped? Were strong arm tactics used to discourage voters? Something else? I'd like to see a source on this. The difference between LoN and CoA must be explained in text (or at least interlinked). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:27, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I would say it is right to say that the election is not recognised by the relevant Lithuanian government. If we want to include further parties in the dispute e.g League of Nations we would need some evidence. If we want to say specifics re why teh election is considered not fair we would require further evidence of excat accusations. Having said this, teh presence of Polish troups an dteh demand by Lithuania for a plebiscite in absence of Polish troups is probably sufficient evidence to suggest that the Lithuanian government was worried about faked and strongarmed elections. Refdoc 11:05, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What troops would you like to see there to consider the elections free ? And was anyone denied the right to vote ? or forced to vote ? I understand that any elections could be faked. Were these ? Wojsyl 15:08, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Regarding a plebiscite, Poland demanded it and Lithuania refused, as Lithuania would obviously loose it, considering that Lithuanian population was minimal in these areas. Wojsyl 15:13, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Evidence Wojsyl, then please. Please remind youself I have little or no clue of Eastern European history - as the normal reader of Misplaced Pages. At the moment I think we can only say that the elctions were not recognised as fair and free by the Lithuanian government. Everything beyond this should be backed by further evidence - who demanded a plebiscite etc etc. who accused whom. Refdoc 18:53, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it was League of Nations who proposed the plebiscite, but each of the opposing sides would only agree for a plebiscite on its own conditions, which were inacceptable to the other party. Obviously a free plebiscite would be lost by Lithuania because of the demographic situation of the area. As to the parliamentary elections, it's fair to say that they were not recognised by Lithuanian government but in any way this does not imply that these elections were not free or fair. One needs some evidence to support such claims. I do not see why Poles would want to fake the elections when they were sure if the positive result anyway ? Any idea ? Wojsyl 20:18, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And claiming that Lithuanian aothorities demanded plebiscite in Vilnius after the parliament was elected does not seem to reflect the facts. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wojsyl 21:37, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

11) Polish ultimatum 1938

Lithuania NEVER recognized the occupation of capital and Eastern Lithuania (see explanations in Talk: Lithuania). All diplomatic relations between the countries were broken (until 1938 polish ultimatum);

part of the article.Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See explanations on Talk: Lithuania. Warning: in 1938 Lithuania didn't recognize occupation of Vilnius, it ONLY CREATED DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH POLAND after polish ultimatum. Poles false try to show, that Lithuania resigned of Vilnius in 1938. Živinbudas

By establishing the diplomatic relations with Poland Lithuania de facto recognized Vilnius to Poland, but as this was under threat of force in the international law of that time it was void since the beginning, compare here occupation of Sudetenland by Germany or Memelgebiet by Germans in 1938-9. TO say that Lithuania established the diplomatic ties with Poland just to forget all its disagreements which the states had in the past is naive. Simply Germany at that time was occupaying Austria and to keep Poland out of that business allowed Poland's aggressive behavior regarding Lithuania. Without seeing support from Germany Lithuanian was forced to accept Polish ultimatum. Dirgela 18:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

However I doubt that Poland had any real intention to invade or occupy Lithuania. The sole purpose of the ultimatum was to force Lithuanian government to re-establish diplomatic relationships with Poland. Until 1938 The border between Poland and Lithuania was closed which made live quite difficult for the people living on both sides, esp. Polish and Lithuanian minorities in each of the countries. In fact earlier, in 1927, Poland forced Lithuania to cease the state of war with Poland. Wojsyl 19:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is then a matter of dispute I would say and shoudl be highlighted as such. International treaties are often a matter of posthumous dispute... Refdoc 16:12, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is undeniable factes. Živinbudas

No, it is personal view. Halibutt 17:18, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

No, it is stated in all official documents of The Republic of Lithuania and in all history books on this topic. Živinbudas

Fine, provide a link to an article by the government or a reputable history site. I must warn you though : Even with good evidence the dispute will remain as obviously Poland appears to have made opposing claims. Our place here in Misplaced Pages is not to solve teh problem, but to document the dispute:

In 1938 Poland and Lithuania re-establishe diplomatic relations. The contemporary Lithuanian historian Arturas Živinbudas claims that this was the result of a Polish ultimatum and did not signify an acceptance of the Polish annexation of Vilnius. Several Polish Historians (notably Halibutt) deny this, referring to paragraph X of the contract and assert that Poland was not in a position to make any credible ultimatum This is obviously only an example but shows how a dispute could be written up. Refdoc 18:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

May be this help -> Lithuanian Government site -> State -> History (pick English language). Živinbudas

I can not get this site to work. It crashes with an internal 500 error whenever I want to enter the Vilnius pages. Refdoc 18:53, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Polish side often treated the re-establishing of diplomatic relations as implied recognition of Vilnius status. However, the treatment didn't contain a direct recognition. Is this sufficient for editing peace? Linas 15:33, 2005 Apr 15 (UTC)

12) Developments between 1922 and 1939

Occupied capital was totaly squalid by Poles and suffered vegetation during all time of captivity from 1920 to 1939. The standard of life in occupied Vilnius and Eastern Lithuania was several times lower than in Free Republic of Lithuania . Only few biger buildings were built in the city in that time. University of Stefan Batory became the polonization nest for occupied teritories.

Please bring some evidence. I have put in some of ity, indicating dispute, but mroe evdience would be useful. Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There are many numbers in statistic sources on that, showing very low standard of life in the city and teritory. They built only few larger buildings in Vilnius - you can see it in Vilnius yourself - Welcome! Živinbudas

And may I come too? :) But seriously, we were trying to find some comparable evidence for that: ie statistical data and comparison of the city with other towns and cities in Poland. Could you provide such comparison? Halibutt 17:21, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

I think is should be noted that Wilna was an informal capital of Yiddish at that time (very interesting description of Jewish situation in the 1920s can be found in "Reise in Polen" by Alfred Döblin). Museum of Jewish culture was founded there in 1919; YIVO (Institute for Research of Jewish Language and Culture) in 1924. There were many Jewish theatres, newspapers and magazines, museums and schools, Jewish PEN-Club. This should not be totally neglected in the description of situation in the town before II World War. Wojsyl 16:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

13) Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact

Lithuania never participated in Pact of Ribentropp-Molotov - it was itself the victim of this pact. Vilnius was returned to Lithuania by the Soviets on the basis of the Treaty of Peace between Lithuania and Soviet Russia of July 12, 1920. Treaty of October 10, 1939 was signed following mentioned treaty. Soviets never seriously considered to transfer Vilnius to Soviet Bielorussia and used these intimidations to force Lithuania to let the Soviet military bases to Lithuanian teritory;

Evidence for Soviet intentions might be hard to get by, so unless you have this readily available, the bare facts without the interpretation shoudl be here Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Soviet intention to transfer Vilnius to Belorussia should be proved not otherwise. Soviet were still legal binded by 1920 treaty which recognized Vilnius as Lithuanian capital city.

It is fixed in documents and pro-memorias of negotiations in Moscow in October, 1939. Soviets always stressed that they recognize Vilnius as Lithuanian capital (it is seen in all pre-war Soviet maps as well). Živinbudas

It would be good if you could show us - the non Lithuanian and non Poles - this by simply linking to such maps or scanning a map or documents and uploading it. Refdoc 16:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ribentropp Molotov pact was between Soviet and Germans. It had a secret protokols with maps, where Easter Europe was divided in influence zones of Soviets and Germans. What other maps do you need? I could not find the original Ribentropp-Molotov map in google but I am sure it should be somewhere on the internet as it is related to history of the whole Eastern Europe. Dirgela 18:38, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dirgela, this is a misunderstanding - the question is not the Hitler-Stalin Pact and its implications on "dividing" Europe, but that Vilnius was intended by Stalin to be Lithuanian capital. Refdoc 18:49, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Certainly, Ribbentrop-Molotov pact assumed that after division of Poland, Vilnius would fall into German sphere of influence, not Soviet. Wojsyl 20:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You aren't very precise in this case. The first protocols contained a sentence , that said, that the both sides will respect interests of Lithuania in Vilnius question (the translation is approximate). In the later treatments Lithuania was “re-given” to the USSR, but this thing wasn't changed. Linas 15:42, 2005 Apr 15 (UTC)

Let me quote first article of the secret protocol of the pact (translated of course):

Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

I think "northern boundary of Luthuania" means that Lithuania together with Vilnius falls to German sphere ... Wojsyl 17:01, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

14) Ponaren

In Paneriai perished mostly Jews, but there were Soviet collaborators, Soviet soldiers and polish underground characters too;

I think teh list is there Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think our text is more correct. We should use Lithuanian name of Vilnius' outskirts. Živinbudas

Former I guess might be a matter of dispute, latter I think depends largely on which name was in use at the time. Also sometimes certain events are (in)famous in the English language with a specific name attached to them. Refdoc 16:16, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In that time was used only Paneriai because it was in Lithuanian administrative teritory - "General District of Lithuania". Živinbudas

The Misplaced Pages article uses the Lithuanian name. This is probably settled. Refdoc 17:23, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yup. The article on Paneriai uses the correct, current name. However, as to the massacre site - I'm not so sure. However, if you say that Reichskommissariat Ostland was an independent state, then we should use the German name Ponaren, as this was the name on the road signs at that time. Halibutt 17:33, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Agree with "Ponaren". Similarly as we use "Auschwitz" and not "Oświęcim" in relation to the mass murder site. Wojsyl 20:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

15) "Criminal organisation"

Vilnius' occupation by the Soviets in July, 1944 was not "liberation", but second Soviet occupation of Lithuania. Armija krajova (not those which operated in Poland) is considered in Lithuania as a criminal organization, because of ethnic cleanings in our teritory. Those bandits' groups tryed to enter Vilnius a few days before Soviets ("operation Ostra Brama") but were parried by Germans;

Laregely incorporated Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Our text is extremely important, because AK in Lithuania is considered as a criminal organization because of ethnic cleanings of Lithuanian population. They never took city themselve. Occupation of city by Soviets wasn't to Lithuania "liberation" but second Soviet occupation. Živinbudas

Quite interesting. Could you provide more info on the Home Army organising ethnic cleansing? Halibutt 17:26, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

And proof that it is considered a criminal organisation? Perhaps a note on the resistance movements that were dominant in the Wilno area (and their legality status now ;p) may be useful as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:30, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

History of ethnic cleansing in Vilnius district during WWII is rather rich. However (and it is recognized by Lithuanian historians) that acts of burning villages, killing and terrorising civilians were carried out by Home Army and Lithuanian troops of self defense. To establish "who started first" is rather unimportant. However these issues are far outside the scope of the article in discussion. Dirgela 18:44, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I think both Lithuanians and Poles can only be ashamed of this, and there's no point pretending that any side was better than the other. The only "good" thing is that the scale of these atrocities was relatively small compared to other things that happened at that time in Europe. BTW: Do you happen to know any figures, like the number of murdered Lithuanian and Polish civilians ? Wojsyl 20:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

16) Famous Vilnians

Who are the famous inhabitants of Vilnius - which were born in Vilnius or not, famous to Lithuania or to entire World? About "vilnians" see explanation in Talk: Vilnius;

I think anyone born and brought up in Vilnius of whatever nationality can claim to be a Vilnian. SO it is not right to shorten the list. Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It isn't correct. Word "vilnian" don't exist in English language and other languages, exept polish. Should be Famous inhabitants of Vilnius. Provided in earlier version list is false because except Vilnius Gaon all those persons weren't born in Vilnius. Some of them are famous to Lithuania (Katkevčius, Platerytė, Vivulskis) but most are "famous" only to Poland. Word "vilnian" is very offensive to Lithuanians because associates with polish occupation of Vilnius. Živinbudas

1. "Vilnian" - I have no comment. I do not know whether this is offensive of not. Other Lithuanians please comment!
2. "Famous" is not dependent on nationality. if someone form Vilnius is famous in Poland he/she is famous enough to be mentioned here. If someone was not born in Vilnius but had other strong personal ties than these should/could be highlighted. Refdoc 16:19, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As to the people being born there or not - most of those listed were. However, it was not the most important argument when I chose the names for that list. The most important arguments were whether they were famous and whether they lived in the city for most of their lives or at least are commonly associated with it. Similarily, I would have nothing against listing Pope John Paul II as a famous inhabitant of Vatican or Lech Wałęsa as a famous inhabitant of Gdansk, eventhough both were born in other places.

• Michał Andriolli - I don't know where was he born, but until 1870's he was working mostly in the city and became famous for his sketches of the city and its area
• Teodor Bujnicki - born, lived and killed in Wilno, famous for his part in the Zagary artistic movement (together with Czeslaw Milosz he was one of its creators).
• Icchak Cukierman - born in Wilno
• Elijah ben Solomon Gaon mi Vilna - born in Wilno
• Antoni Gorecki - born and educated in Wilno. After all that's where he met Mickiewicz.
• Stanisław Jasiukiewicz - Born in Wilno. And so was his accent, which added much to his popularity.
• Mieczysław Karłowicz - born not far from the city and educated there.
• Czesław Miłosz - quite self-explanatory, I guess. Although you're right, he was not born in the city of Wilno itself. But he got his Noberl Prize, among other things, for his poems describing his Lithuania.
• Maurycy Orgelbrand (1826-1904) and Samuel Orgelbrand (1810-1868) - too bad you don't know them, after all they started their career in Vilna. And later they published the first modern encyclopedia in the lands of former PLC. And, AFAIR, both are buried in Rossa.
• Jerzy Passendorfer - born in Wilno
• Artūras Paulauskas - born in Vilnius
• Emilia Plater - born in Wilno
• Kazimierz Plater - born there
• Ada Rusowicz - born there
• Bolesław Bohusz-Siestrzeńcewicz - born some 20 km from the city centre, lived there for large part of his life, died there and buried there
• Piotr Skarga - not born there, but quite famous and very important for the city's history.
• Irena Sławińska - born there
• Jędrzej Śniadecki - was working at the Main School of the Grand Duchy (later renamed to Wilno Academy, currently Vilnius University) for most of his life. Died there.
• Józef Świętorzecki - born there
• Władysław Syrokomla - for most of his life lived some 15 km from the city centre and there he published most of his works. Also, he is buried there.
• Zygmunt Vogel - born and died there, most of his famous works are landscapes of the city
• Antoni Wiwulski - lived there for most of his life and two out of three of the most famous of his buildings are located in Wilno (Church of Three Crosses, I don't know the Lithuanian name, and the Holy Jesus' Heart Church). He also died there.
• Tomasz Zan - I'm not sure where was he born, but he was famous for his activity in the city (including friendship with Mickiewicz) and is buried there.

Now then, we could of course argue whether all of them should be included in the article. Perhaps some of them were more famous than others and perhaps some of them are famous only among specialists of certain topic, but deleting the list just because seems a move in the wrong direction. Halibutt 18:12, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

I do not know any of them which probably just proves my ignorance.... As a basic suggestion I would think if someone is important enough to warrant an article in Misplaced Pages he should be mentioned here. If on the other hand no article is there and unlikely ever to develop red links are rather ugly... Refdoc 18:17, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If that's the criterion, then I could prepare at least stubs on each one of them to give some more general info on the person and why is she/he important. After all almost all of them already have their articles in some wikipedias. Halibutt 18:31, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

This becomes a bit circular doesn't it? But by all means. I would say that anyone mentioned here should have a stub at least, making very clear a) why famous and b) why Vilnius. Refdoc 19:18, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I already started :) Halibutt 20:33, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

17) External links

The reference to polish revanchistes' web is unconscionable. Antituteišas

I assume you mean the last website. As such a website - even if controversial - might be a useful addition. But I have not found anything Ewnglish in it making it rather useless. So I suggest deletion - albeit for different reasons than you Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Should be deleated. Živinbudas

18) city names

And finally about Vilnius name. There is only Vilnius in English. Vilna is from Jewish (and in Jewish from earlier Russian Vilna. Jews somethimes use Vilna in context of Jewish issues as Kovna as well (Vilna ghetto, Kovna ghetto etcr). There is Vilnius in German now too. It is funy to mention all international names of the city (ie Warszawa, Warsaw, Warshau, Varsovia, Varšuva). I think it is enaugh to wright Vilnius - see Riga, Tallinn and other capitals in Misplaced Pages. Živinbudas

Like it or not, the city used to be referred to in English with many names - Vilna included. Halibutt 18:19, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

The reason for mentioning the name in Polish and Yiddish is that the city played and important role in the history of both Poles and Jews. The same for Belarusian name. This is quite customary, harmless and can be considered as a useful piece of information. Compare with other cities with rich multinational history, e.g. Gdansk or Poznan. Wojsyl 21:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Before World War II, Vilna was the principal name used in English. See, e.g. the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, or the Catholic Encyclopedia, from around the same time. It also is frequently used today when referring to the city in the past. john k 15:58, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Solution

Our persistent troll, quite impervious to any compromise and such, feeds on quite a few Lithuania related articles. Either we protect them all for weeks hoping he gets bored and goes away, or we use a range block on his entire ISP. As long as such a block only prevents anons from editing Wiki, I feel it is a small price to pay. Whatever little positive contribution (if any...) other anons from his IP range have, we can surely see with our own eyes that it is outweighted by the time of many good Wikipedians wasted on reverting troll changes and pointlessly arguing with him. Who supports the range ban and who opposes? Anon votes will be ignored. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:47, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is not a solution. A range ban is not a contructive way of dealing with the situation. Certainly not without an Arbcom ruling. Refdoc 11:00, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I know that you don't seem to like the idea of range block. Can you spare some time and explain why it's not a good solution. I claim there's been no single edit from these addresses other than those by our anonymous friend here, and they certainly are not constructive. How high is the risk of any collateral damage then ? (compared to the waste of time we're all experiencing here). Wojsyl 11:04, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If you go over his 17 points, ignore the racist garbage and the general invective you will find that there are a number of valid points. If you look at the current version a lot has changed - IMHO - to the positive by incorporating these. I think the man has a serious conduct problem, he does not contribute constructively, he is largely a pain, but his POV - translated via myself - was not without positive influence on the total quality of the article. So to block him out will not allow him to impove his current behaviour and it will cut us off the potential of future contributions from his POV.

I doubt if it's valuable enough to keeping other registered users from improving the article. The cost we are all paying for his education is much higher than the dubious benefits. Similarly one could argue, that open proxies allow for certain amount of positive input, yet they are being blocked. Wojsyl 14:43, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Further the range appears to be that of a major ISP and this alone should make us loath a range block. BTW would someone who is logged in with a username be affected by a range block? Refdoc 12:54, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. "Major ISP" is just a name, you need to look closer and evaluate the potential negative consequences, which seem to be negligible here. It's quite irrelevant whether you call an ISP major or minor if there's only a single wikipedia user there. It would be good to convince our anonymous here to register though (and I hope he'll soon understand this too).

The first paragraph of w:Blocking_policy#Disruption explains why this would be a legitimate block under these circumstances, and w:Blocking_policy#Range_blocks explains why a range block would be appropriate here. Do you see any other effective alternative (other than more people wasting their time, including ArbCom ?) Wojsyl 14:43, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We could try with the ArbCom, but I'm afraid it would take several weeks more to finish the case. Halibutt 11:31, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

If everyone tries to avoid winding each other up and avoids to rise to bait all of this might be unnecessary. If on teh other side everything does break down agai, there will be more than adequate material of attempted conflict resolution to justify going to arbcomm. Also I think that ArbComm has recently become a lot more pro-active and does issue injuctions before full decisions are made. Refdoc 16:27, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dear Refdoc

Listen to me very carefully now. SOLUTION will be then, when every of 17 points from basic Lithuanian version will be placed beside polish false statements without any change in new text. And the same in Lithuania text (explanations in Talk: Lithuania. It is my last offer. Živinbudas

I'm afraid your ultimatum won't work. Halibutt 11:26, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

And you could added: Lithuanian POV, polish POV. But I very good know, it isn't in your interests. Darknesses always fear the light. This fear shows that you are weak, very weak. Its reality. Živinbudas

Please have a look at 17 points you have made. I put my comments to it. as said before, large parts already are incorporated in teh current version if you look carefully. Some bits require additional evidence from your side. Please provide this and we can proceed with incorporating your suggestions. Please desist from personal attacks or threats against anyone. Refdoc 12:37, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Eventualy something positive. I will wright my comments. But I would like, that all textes would be provided without changes because of their diametralic contrary to earlier statements. Živinbudas

"Without changes" is obviously not something anyone would consider. Teh article is teh product of many people's contribution and your contribution is ne among many. I think you must learn that Misplaced Pages's aim is not to make judgements which version is teh "right" one but to provide information, unbiased and witha neutral point of view. If there is dispute than not one version will be chosen , but the dispute documented. "Historian A feels this, Historian B says that" Refdoc 13:18, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ready. Please see. Živinbudas

Good. I am grateful that something like a debate is now happening. I would prefer if others would now contribute too. I would also like to stress that this is always going to be a contributory article, not a "true" or "national" version. Teh final version will have to reflect both Lithuanian, GHerman, Russian, Polish, ehatever views if these are relevant to the matter. If I could get a guarantee that you will continue to discuss in the manner you are doing now, will stop doing reverts and will stop calling people offensive names I think we could unprotect the page and edit jointly again. Refdoc 15:47, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So what will steps be next? I understand too why you placed this chart on the top of Talk: Vilnius. But I very like that statistic and very good know her (I have many sources). I will entusiasticly comment those numbers soon. And will provide statistic of 19th century as well. Živinbudas

The next step? If you confirm that you will not anymore revert, nor call people names I will unprotect the page allowing all of us to continue editing. Refdoc 16:23, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So what about the new text? Is it not actual already? Živinbudas

The text was once already updated this morning - a lot of what you raised in the 17 points had been incorporated when you again started to revert. SO the text was again protected by another admin. If you confirm that you will not anymore revert or call people "fascist" or "liers" I will unprotect the page. Refdoc 16:30, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't want that falsificated polish version would be unprotected. If I begin to place my statements (from 17 points) and erase false earlier statements, I again will be accused of vandalism and page will be protected. Is it? So what is solution? Živinbudas

I think the first step is to acknowledge there is no "falsificated Polish version" which must be erased. Each individual sentence can be individually edited and changed. Your complete reverts erasing other people's contribution were what create dthe problem initally. My suggestion is that I will unprotect, and will gradually introduce each agreed point. You will edit small points, wikify, add small bits of information etc , but will not revert or erase large chunks. Better still you bring things up here onn the talk page and wait for agreement. As you aready see the list of agreed points is growing all the time. If you agree and undertake not to call people "liers" or "fascists" I will unprotect. Refdoc 17:31, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nu? Refdoc 18:18, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unprotecting and Registering

I am very glad for the major improvement of the tone on this page. I will not yet unprotect as I would like to be quite clear that this is not going to lead immediately back into teh old behaviour. I really must insist that you make an undertaking not to revert war again or to insult otehr people again. I also would like to suggest you that you get registered. This has many advantages, the first one obviously is that people find it esier to deal with you. Another advantage for yourself is that that you gain a lot of facilities which make your own editing easier - e.g a watchlist where you can see how articles you care about change shape. If you require any advice how to do this, just put a note onto my talk page. I also must warn you that Misplaced Pages can be able to defend itself if really required - i.e. user who are permanently offensive and disruptive can be banned in rather effective ways I think a number of other users are very upset with your past comments so any further commenst might well trigger serious complaints. Refdoc 20:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Refdoc, if you will really succeed in transforming this...person...into a productive member of Misplaced Pages community, you are truly great. Wish you luck. You may want to append your proposition with a note that this should apply to all of our dear anon contributions, not only this page, though, to avoid any confusion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have not been involved in any other pages and I think the debate is really only abvout this page's protection status. Refdoc 10:59, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Summing up

I think it is time to draw together some of the conclusions of the discussions above and produce a summarised version. I will do this later tonight in form of another /subpage. Once we have some sort of agreement and once our anonymous contributor has made his commitment as explained above we can reopen the page and archive this mess here... :-) Refdoc 19:46, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I second Dirgela, that the history section should be much abbreviated here. It's much too long for an article about a city. Only the basic facts should be mentioned, and not the deeper discussions. Wojsyl 21:40, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, but let sort this here as the material is now here. Once we have a generally accepted history it is a lot easier to decide which bits stay and which get moved on. Refdoc 21:57, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Allright. Later, when things settle down a bit I'd suggest first removing all references to general history, not specifically relating to the city itself. Wojsyl 22:02, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm about to move the contents of the /subpage into the main article in order not to end up with two different versions. Wojsyl 16:44, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Shortening "History" section

I'd like to remove the less important paragraphs (like the legend etc.) from the "History" section as they rather belong to the History of Vilnius article, and this section here seems unnecessarily long already. Wojsyl 17:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

www.wilno.pl

I would like to remove this link. I have not found any English texts in this site - maybe I did not look hard enough, but without a good reason (and explanation) a foreign language site should really not be here. I understand that our anonymous contributor had other reasons for having it removed but i think really teh language issue is perfectly adequate to have it gone (unless there is a very valid reason and this reason is given) Refdoc 21:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I looked at it and it seems it's a collection of Polish sites about Vilnius. Interesting, but could not find anything in English there. Wojsyl 04:58, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Would you then be upset if we delete it? Alternatively it should get a caption "Polish sites regarding Vilnius" or something like this. i would prefer deletion though. Refdoc 11:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think it can be deleted and that's what I've just done. I'm sure that if there's any good reason to have it here, someone will explain this. In fact I'm not sure about some other ext links either. Wojsyl 13:16, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The edit war

Zivibundas and Wiktacy, what's up with your edit war on this article? I suggest you discuss the changes on this page before changing the article so dramatically. A consensus is needed for this article, and there's not going to be one if you just revert each other's changes. For example, my personal opinion is that shortening the list of Vilnans to just two or removing big parts of the history section isn't appropriate. Please discuss and try to reach a consensus on the content, thanks. Solver 13:11, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Why there is so much anti - Polish bullshit in the article?

Where did you find that poor and lonely nationalistic Zivibrudas?

Why there is so much anti - Lithuanian bullshit in the article?

Where did you find that poor and lonely nationalistic Wojšudyl?

As an English speaker, and as a newspaper editor, I find it bizarre that the present entry begins talking about Vilnius, then suddenly shifts to calling it Wilno ("After the Third Partition of Poland in 1795, Wilno was annexed by Russia..."), then shifts again to calling it Wilna ("During the World War I Wilna was occupied by Germany ...") -- without ever explaining why the different forms of the name are being used. To a casual English-speaking reader who has no background in the history of the city and region, this makes no sense whatever.

Speaking as the husband of a native of Vilnius, I find the proportion of Vilnius residents listed as Polish in 2001 surprisingly high. I will ask someone IN VILNIUS to check on this for me.

Sca 19:39, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

See: http://www.vilnius.lt/new/en/investicijos.php?open=32&root=3&sub_cat=77

"Vilnius is known as a multicultural city. Residents of nationalities other than Lithuanian, constitute almost half of the city’s population. Since 1989, the Vilnius population by national descent has changed slightly. In 1996, Lithuanians constituted 53.5 per cent of Vilnius’ population, Russians – 18.9 %, Poles – 19.1% , Byelorussians – 4.7 %, Jews – 0.7%, others – 3.1 %."--Witkacy 23:30, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Here vandalising polish nationalistes. See now. Zivinbudas 20:37, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

In Vilnius live 57,8% of Lithuanians (2001) - now more than 60%. Vilnius is "multicultural" only thanks to polish (1920 - 1939) and soviet (1940 - 1990) occupations. But in Independent Lithuania things are changing very fast to good. We need only the time. Zivinbudas 04:43, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

This has gone far enough

There's been enough of this nonsense. Feel free, of course, to hash it out here on the talk page, that's what it's for. But in the meantime, I've protected the article from editing. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 23:27, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah. Zivinbudas is back from holidays and vandalising again. And here we go again... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:59, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

It is very sad that on Lithuanian pages of Misplaced Pages - Lithuania, Vilnius, Lithuanians, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and others are operating polish "administrators" which without any comments erase all discuted changes and revert to previous versions. Users from various countries see all that. Continue to compromite Misplaced Pages and yourself. Zivinbudas 05:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Me? Polish? Nope, I'm a Canadian kid. Poland is very nice, as is Lithuania. I just would like to see things settle down. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 05:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Many your collegues. And you very good know that. It is very sad that Misplaced Pages is using for dirty nationalistic games. Zivinbudas 05:12, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, isn't it a little childish to namecall, when the other people might think they are as correct as you are? Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 06:02, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

And sorry Friend, why did you protect falsificated polish text with huge amount of false statements, but not fully discused (see Talk:Vilnius -> above) last version? Zivinbudas 06:23, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I simply kept it protected at the most recent version. I'm not neccesarily saying either version is correct. We need to work on a compromise here. User:Piotrus, do you have anything to add? Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 09:14, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Most recent version wasn't this. You simply lying. 85.206.192.32 09:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

How's that? The most recent version was User:Witkacy's reversion of User:Zivinbudas's edits. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 09:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Don't play naiv games. What about "protected" Lithuania page? What version was last? Reverted by the same polish "administrator" and "protected". I am very happy that users from various countries see what is doing here. 85.206.193.33 09:56, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I had nothing to do with that. I'm not Polish, so don't be blaming me. Like I said previously, I'm from Canada. Let us not be concerned with the Lithuania page right now, only with Vilnius. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 10:01, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear Friend, Canadians usualy don't wright 'Zivinbudas's'. Isn't it? But its OK. 85.206.193.33 10:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Fowler's Modern English Usage states that the possessive forms of proper nouns ending with a vocalised "s" require an apostrophe followed by another "s". Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 10:21, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for hot information. It is very different to what I learned. 85.206.193.33 10:26, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Always a pleasure. Now then, If I stay any longer I'm going to be late for school, so feel free to write further comments here, on my talk page, or to edit planned versions of the page at Vilnius/Temp1. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 10:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Don't forget to eat your flaki at school at break. Wishing only good grades. 85.206.195.99 12:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I ate a sandwich at school today. I'm surprised you didn't add anything. How am I supposed to know what you want for the page, if nobody provides any examples? I'm assuming you wish for the Vilnius page to eventually be restored, please help in doing so. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 04:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Notice

If anyone wishes to complain about the current version of this page, now is the time. If nobody brings forth any grievances against this page in 24 hours' time, I shall assume, that this version is correct, and that the current parties who previously argued against it, have decided it is correct. As always, I can be contacted on my talk page. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 10:01, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

You can see all discussions in Talk:Vilnius -> above, and compare with "protected" false text. 85.206.194.121 12:30, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your attempt at mediation, however as you will soon see (or can see going through talk above and archieves) it is basically the single user crusade against the world, with no respect for 3RR or any other policy. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:00, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Few immature polish "historians" are not the 'world'. May be are you Napoleon IV? 85.206.194.121 12:27, 4 May 2005 (UTC)