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Revision as of 14:30, 23 May 2007

Hereditary Peerage Association

Hereditary Peerage Association (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Obscure, non-notable stub on tiny UK pressure group that seems to exist largely only as a website. I did try and discuss the notability but was basically told to did it myself if I wanted notability proven!. This society reminds me a lot of the Federal Commonwealth Society and I am sure those same editors who have WP:COI issues will turn up here. I would prefer if the wider wiki community that is not conflicted would determine the notability. Additionally there are only 10 ghits for the association, some of which are for its own webpage and only ONE mention in a reliable source here in the FIVE years that it has been in existence, therefore fails WP:N, WP:V and {{WP:CORP]] .Vintagekits 23:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Its membership makes it notable. - Kittybrewster (talk) 23:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment - no comment!--Vintagekits 23:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Per Kittybrewster. --Random 23:54, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep (god help me). It is a genuine body, and while by definition it's only going to have 92 members, those 92 are all notable (right or wrong) by Misplaced Pages standards, and by virtue of who they are it's more likely to have an impact as an organisation than your typical club. It does get (some) independent non-trivial coverage (for example). Judge it by the article, not the two primary contributors (who I admit set off warning bells) — iridescenti (talk to me!) 23:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, ONE fleeting mention in a newspaper in FIVE years! Just because it has notable members doesnt make this association notable - what is it notable for? It fails both WP:V, WP:N and WP:CORP--Vintagekits 00:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Certainly not a strong keep & I wouldn't lose any sleep if it were to go (they certainly don't seem to have accomplished anything), but since presumably they'll be the source for talking heads come the final push against the Lords by Labour once Tony goes/restoration of the old system under the Tories (delete as appropriate), I think warrants keeping. I certainly agree that they appear to have been the least effective pressure group of all time. However, I do think they (just) meet WP:ORG#Non-commercial_organizations ("The scope of activity is national in scale and can be verified by independent sources") — iridescenti (talk to me!) 00:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Complete nonsense - it needs multiple non trivial sources - its doesnt have this - but ignoring that it has never done anything!--Vintagekits 00:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment - it holds regualr events, but only members (who must be hereditary peers or their heirs can attend, they may bring guests - but they too must be hereditary peers)

• Strong Keep. Google can not be the arbiter of notability for the subjects of articles that do not have a cyberspace focus.
  

The HPA is notable for the size of its membership and the members' political influence within the United Kingdom (since if it is indeed a "pressure group", its notability is largely determined by the influence of its members.)
As regards, its influence as a "Peers' trade union" and whether we like it or not, the membership of more than 200 seems to have a certain degree of influence within Her Majesty's current Loyal Opposition: and includes at least one member of the European Parliament. This is a bad faith nomination by a sloppy User who can not be bothered to even proof read his own nomination and only wishes to harass and expel editors with a different political viewpoint to his own minority political view point rather than improve Misplaced Pages. I note again the nominating User's bad faith technique of deleting material in the nominated article (without prior consensus or discussion on the article's talk page) so that he can then justify deletion of the shrunken stub article as non notable. I personally find it difficult to believe that its members (many of whom have run large businesses or organisations) would each be conned into paying £15 for annual membership of something that "seems to exist largely only as a website" and that this amazing confidence trick should continue for 5 years. W. Frank ✉ 00:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Could you make that reply a bit longer, please? — iridescenti (talk to me!) 00:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment, is that your reason for a "strong keep". This is an AfD nomination not a joke = please try and take it more serious in future.--Vintagekits 00:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment If I know your tactics, Vintage, I'm sure the serious squad will be along very shortly. Do we need to wait until they come back from their Wikibreaks? W. Frank ✉ 00:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment, this is not some points scoring excersise - you have attacked my nomination and myself - try basis some analysis on the article in relation to wikipolicy instead - this is a discussion NOT A VOTE. This organisation has ONE reference to it in the real world yet you !vote strong keep - that speaks volumes.--Vintagekits 01:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. Google is not the real world. I presume that you have already read relevant Wiki policy so I can not help you further if you do not understand the comments of others above. Please do not expect others not to attack your sloppy and harassing conduct. And please be a bit more accurate and less cryptic and formulaic with your edit summaries. It's hardly a "reply" when you (justifiably) delete more than 3000 characters of another user's comments. W. Frank ✉ 01:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment The material removed was a paragraph containing historical background to the fact that only some of the Peers now sit in parliament. It does not mention the association ].

• Comment, Instead of commenting on me would you like to comment (per policy and guidelines) on why this Association is notable.--Vintagekits 11:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete unless additional references are provided. As with many organisations, it is notable if people know about it and write about it. At present the only evidence is the Guardian article cited, which mentions it in one short paragraph with a much longer article. Its members, however distinguished, do not make it notable . There have been other articles on aristocratic organisations of one sort or another which are strangely never mentioned in public sources. DGG 02:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - It is notable due to its membership, its aims and the fact that it is the only "trade union" for hereditary peers. I would also like to question whether this article was nominated in good faith. Vintage kits made no attempts to improve the article, but was intent on its being nominated, and also made comments such as this; "Read what these these snivellers have to say for themselves", made on User:One Night In Hackney's user page here show his obvious PoV in this area.--Counter-revolutionary 07:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

comment - above Vintagekits says this has one reference. Not true. , it is mentioned by the Dept. for Constitutional Affairs etc. Also not all refs. appear on the internet.--Counter-revolutionary 07:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I believe that Vintage's claim, that there is only one reference for the subject, refers to the fact there is only one reference in the article. Under that interpretation, the statement is demonstrably true. In any case, it is good that you're taking the step of trying to find more sources. Now, I would suggest you take a further step: add the source, properly cited, to the article. If multiple sources can be added, as you suggest, then there isn't much reason to delete here. Charlie 08:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment, Instead of commenting on me would you like to comment (per policy and guidelines) on why this Association is notable.--Vintagekits 11:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

comment, unfortunately your reasons for nominating the article seem to be relevant. --Counter-revolutionary 11:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment, my reasons for nomination are clearly set out in the nomination above and on the articles talk page and are soundly based on wiki policy. If you can not defend the article based on policy and prefer just to attack the nominator and the nomination then that is fine but you are then just losing the argument. This is a discussion not a vote. If there are 100 "keep" !votes and only 1 "delete" !vote then the article can still be deleted as it the the argument you put across that counts not the number of !votes.--Vintagekits 11:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Delete, another ancient body that as useful as a glass hammer in British politics, won't be around for much longer either. Tiocfaidh Ár Lá! 12:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment, its not that ancient infact it was only founded five years ago and doesnt seem to have done anything since created.--Vintagekits 12:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So obviously the above "delete" did not even read the article. He also seems to be arguing that he doesn't like it, not that it's not notable. Counter-revolutionary 12:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I wouldnt disagree with that, however, if you read the "keep" votes - none of them are rooted in policy. I knew that the same old editors would turn up and vote to keep this hopefully once we get through these the unbiased community at large can have their say.--Vintagekits 12:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Delete, more rubbish that has no current purpose to wikipedia or anyone else. the site should contain info that is useful. Maplecelt 13:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment - the above user has made only 10 edits, the last contribution was to Sir William Arbuthnot, 2nd Baronet's unsuccesful Afd. It also argues that he doesn't like it, not that it isn't notable. --Counter-revolutionary 13:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment "they appear to have been the least effective pressure group of all time": if this statement is even partially accurate then this, by and of itself, is a ground of sufficient notability in the way that Eddy the Eagle (Britain's Olympic Ski Jump competitor) was notable for his failures rather than his achievements.

Actually, the scales have fallen from my eyes and I wish to apologise to Vinny the Vulture. His edits and nominations for deletion really are notably accurate and neutral. W. Frank ✉ 14:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

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