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Medicine Start‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

New entry

Cannot this be made into a proper entry and be linked to from the Abortion entry?

WikiSceptic 02:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

It has been done. Brisvegas 12:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep: This article is valid. Some people are just so narrow minded that they will try to get rid of anything that contridicts their Idiotology regardless of it's merit. Chooserr

• comment: as long as I have you here, please stop creating vandal templates for your own personal use, thank you--Aolanonawanabe 04:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Do not merge

This issue is too weighty to be merged into another article - it deserves some space of its own. Brisvegas 11:15, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• That's a nice discussion, now I think I'll put the merge tags back--Aolanonawanabe 12:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not a "political epithet" - it's a controversial issue which cannot be summed up in two/three sentences. Brisvegas 12:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not an 'issue' at all, it's an article prtending to have medical content--Aolanonawanabe 12:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of our personal opinions, this article deserves to be on its own and not be swallowed up by a list. Brisvegas 12:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Reality isn't an opinion, and certianly not a personal one, this article should be swallowed up by a list, and quickly too, before somebody reads it and gets then impression that it has some sort of encylopdic value, it's a political buzzword, it should go to a list of political buzzwords--Aolanonawanabe 12:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay then, let's compromise - we'll add the term to the list but retain this article as a separate reference. If you feel it is little more than a buzzword, feel free to put this in the introduction - but in a NPOV way of course. The info about the research into this topic/buzzword/etc. deserves an article, and would be far too big to fit into the list. This article was expanded after advice from editors of the main Abortion article, when they felt that this section was getting too long. Brisvegas 12:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Stop putting the merge tag on. The very fact of you suggesting a merge to List of political epithets shows that you do not know what "epithet" means. You are being decidedly POV here as well. --Cyde Weys _talk 00:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Talk

So why is it POV, and why do you as one person feel the need to force your opinions upon others...No one else has made comments on this version being POV. So why not wait for others to reach a census? Chooserr 05:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

changes to first section

Giving an overview of the developmental issues involved here is useful. But I don't believe it is appropriate to paint the academic/medical side of this debate as pro-life versus pro-choice. I have removed statements like Academics who hold "pro-choice" points of view often estimate that a fetus can only feel pain during the third trimester... and acedemics who hold a pro-life point of view argue that the fetus is capable of feeling pain as early as 7 weeks... because they imply that those academics are letting their politics drive their research findings. Also, I removed unsupported statements like Most pro-life advocates believe... and Most pro-choice advocates believe... Advocates on both sides have a wide range of beliefs, so I think these statements are greatly oversimplified. If anyone has support for these findings, please cite it. FreplySpang (talk) 01:12, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I just found that part of this was a copyvio from , so I am going to reword. Copying whole sentences and paragraphs from other websites with only minor changes is not acceptable at Misplaced Pages. FreplySpang (talk) 01:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Can you quote what part was a copyright violation for I wrote the first paragraph on my own and thought it looked damn fine, and shouldn't have been changed. Chooserr 01:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

There, I changed it. The copyright violation wasn't by you, Chooserr, it was added by Brisvegas in this edit: . From "Pain in an adult, child, newborn or late-term fetus..." to "... i.e. sometime after about 26 weeks into pregnancy." was lifted (with tiny changes) from . I also changed your paragraph because it had a lot of redundancy with the following paragraphs. And it certainly did not look "damn fine" with its spelling and grammar errors. Also, after reading the given reference , I re-added a bit about the relationship between belief and research. FreplySpang (talk) 01:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Source disputed

Note that there is currently a dispute over whether religioustolerance.org is an acceptable source for Misplaced Pages articles. See Misplaced Pages:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and its talk page. (There's also a dispute over the dispute, see Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org !) The dispute started as part of the larger dispute over BC/AD vs. BCE/CE.

Personally, I think that the religioustolerance.org piece provided a useful starting point for this article. It would be great if interested people could expand the article to use multiple sources, but I understand it takes time. FreplySpang (talk) 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• Speaking of disputes over sources, he's now trying to add a shock-site with bady photoshoped pictures of fetuses, the virgin mary, and jesus, , as a 'source'--Aolanonawanabe 01:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

So called "Shock link"

That is pure and simple a miss representation of the facts that diagram clearly pertains to the subject matter of this article and shows what would cause the fetus to feel pain. Should we censor a diagram that pertains to the subject matter just because one user doesn't like it? I find the picture of an erection on the Penis page more offensive, and no one dares remove it because it "illustrates" what is happening. Chooserr 01:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The photograph of an erection probably does not belong on the top-tier penis article. An illustration would be better, with photos at the main erection article, but I'll leave it to the regulars in the male anatomy articles to establish their own conventions. Here, the precedent is zero tolerance for sites containing shock pictures on the abortion-related articles. This image itself does not even pertain to the subject of fetal pain. It is a diagram of D&X, and, if it belongs anywhere, it belongs over there -- stretching it to fit is POV. -Kyd 01:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Also the diagram comes from a reputable source that gives illustrations to all sorts of things including the cardiovascular system, the reproductive system, and the nervous system. It also makes medical awareness posters so I think you'd be misplaced in calling it a shock site. Chooserr 01:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I feel that the image is relevant to the entire point which this article attempts to make. If it is 'shocking', so what? Quite frankly, this seems more like a difference of opinion between people rather than about the image in question. I have viewed hundreds of images made in the style of the one in question. As Chooserr pointed out, the places where one can view such images are most commonly found in medical practice offices. Heck, anyone who has been to a Body Worlds exhibit has seen more than enough human tissue to last a dozen lifetimes (sadly, I missed that traveling exhibit). How is the image in question any more shocking than the images we have in the articles for Body Worlds , penis , vagina , or even ectopic pregnancy ? Should we remove this image from the Body Worlds article here simply because it *might* be perceived as 'shocking'?

The answer, of course, is no. Censorship, in principle, is not the Misplaced Pages way. We edit and censor out material that is not relevant or otherwise inappropriate. Additionally, the image in question quite adequately provides a visual representation of what this article is describing. Whether fetal pain *exists* or not is not our place to question here, as there is evidence for and against it, and we are writing an encyclopædia, which *describes* rather than *prescribes* knowledge.

I challenge anyone concerned about this matter to adequately demonstrate that this image is any more shocking than hundreds more images on Misplaced Pages which show the parts of a human body, sliced or otherwise, as I cannot imagine any reason why the image should not be linked here.

→ P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 19:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I really don't know what else I have to say. KillerChihuahua and I said our bits a month ago. It's not so much about content as it is about context, and, in this case the image is more argumentative than informative. In keeping with NPOV, this sort of thing should be avoided. We created the "no shock links" guideline on the main abortion article as a way to thin out the external links section and seal a loophole to potential POV violations. The standard applies both ways, and, as such, the link to Women on Waves was removed. Such contents and links would be better suited to more specific articles. -Kyd 10:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It isn't a shock site

Sorry I miss typed it in the rush to fix the unjust revert Chooserr 01:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't give a flip who put it there, it has no bearing on fetal pain whatsover. It isn't to a medical study on the developent of the nervous system, or anything else relevent. There is no reason to have it in an article titled "Fetal pain" because it isn't about fetal pain. KillerChihuahua 01:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It has to do with fetal pain, and you did ask who put it there - don't ask if you don't want to know. Chooserr 01:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Argh, I answered this on both our talk pages, but here it is again:

Oh sheesh, my apologies. It was a rhetorical question... I didn't realize you were answering my question, because it was rhetorical, if that makes *any* sense. Thanks for the info, apologies again for not making sense. KillerChihuahua 01:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

See your talk page, Chooserr, for a longer explanation of my conduct as an editor. Thanks. -Kyd 02:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

New study

There was a new study released on this topic . Here are some points:

Summary points

• The neuroanatomical system for pain can be considered complete by

26 weeks’ gestation

• A developed neuroanatomical system is necessary but not sufficient

for pain experience

• Pain experience requires development of the brain but also requires

development of the mind to accommodate the subjectivity of pain

• Development of the mind occurs outside the womb through the

actions of the infant and mutual adjustment with primary caregivers

• The absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the morality of

abortion but does argue against legal and clinical efforts to prevent

such pain during an abortion

--Andrew c 04:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Research

I saw in your second paragraph you stated, "Some academics argue that it appears as early as seven weeks after conception". But I was wondering, in your research have you founds anyone who believed that the fetus feels pain even before seven weeks? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beamboi2000 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 4 May 2006.

debate, controversy, all that

forgive me- I do grammatical deconstruction when I get this close to disinfo. it's a coping mechanism.

it's the subject of debate as a part of the controversy. 

ok, so less than 50 articles link here, so it's not super important, but all articles about contorversies are such bad places to get information. so is that what we settle for on 'pedia for controversial topics? we just accept the truth that the truth on these pages is gonn be fuzzy? I dunno. it's tough territory. I feel sorry for admins who end up having to sort this kind of stuff out.

while I'm sure there are non-abortion-related reasons (anti or pro) to understand fetal pain, there are few reasons money would find it's way to funding such research besides abortion-interest-money reasons. I find it weird that pro-choice persons would really go down this road cuz, eh. If this gets debated, I think prolifers win, slightly.

also- it mighta been prominent, relavant news but there's ad hominem stuff in here. (4th paragraph under fetal pain#Medical opinions) that should be removed unless there's a (gulp) source. CrackityKzz 05:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

andrew c- "manual of style says the name of the article should be bold and the start of the opening sentence" I understand the sentence up to the word "bold". what does the rest of the sentence intend to say exactly? u'v got a hanging participle or something. CrackityKzz 16:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that wasn't clear, here is the relevent link Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Article titles. The edit that I reverted moved the title out of the subject of the opening sentence into a subordinate clause. Does that make sense? Forgive me for not being clearer in the edit summary.--Andrew c 17:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

excellent. chances are if you use "subordinate clause"- gotcha. thanks. CrackityKzz 21:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Pain and suffering

I am going to edit the article to include links to the main articles on pain and suffering. This is very appropriate. It is useful for readers to know that pain and suffering can be distinct, and to understand what each term means. These are not links to articles on "postanatal pain" and "postnatal suffering". These are links to "pain" and "suffering".

Generally speaking, I do not think it would be useful to search out and erase everything in this fetal pain article that might also have some relation to postnatal life.Ferrylodge 01:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that generally speaking, we shouldn't search out and erase everything that isn't related to the fetus. However, I take issues with these two sentences "Generally speaking, pain may occur without being triggered by injury. Moreover, there are types of suffering distinct from pain." The citations have nothing to do with the fetus. In this context, I believe these two sentences are original research, so let me explain a little further by summarizing the connotation I get from reading these sections. We talk about how various scientific studies conclude it is impossible for fetuses to feel pain before ~26 weeks because not all of the bits and pieces are in place. We counter that by saying, in essence, pain and suffering is very complex. A full grown adult my be able to "experience" pain without and physical stimulus, and again there is the vauge notion of "suffering" which a fetus may undergo, so saying a fetus doesn't have all the bits and pieces to feel pain is misleading because a fetus could still "suffer" or experience some sort of pain without stimulus. By mentioning two studies unrelated to fetal pain in association with studies related to fetal pain, we are in essence rebutting those studies by saying pain and suffering are mysterious so we don't really know what a fetus can experience. While this may be a valid concern, I'd seems like original research to synthesize the sources together in this manner in this context. I'd feel much more comfortable if we could get an actual citation of a medical source saying these things in regards to a fetus. Understand where I am coming from?-Andrew c 02:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Andrew C., are you opposed to linking the pain article and/or the suffering article in this article? Additionally, I did not see anything in the cited portions of references and that limited the discussion to "adults". Have you noticed something there that I didn't? Where did it say that the discussion did not apply equally to infants?Ferrylodge 02:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Moved content

Generally speaking, pain may occur without being triggered by injury. Moreover, there are types of suffering distinct from pain.

I removed the above because IMO it is not germane to this article. The first ref is to Supportive Care in Radiotherapy, the second to Surgical Management of Pain, the statement overall adds no understanding of fetal pain at all SFAICT. The second sentence especially is discussing suffering which is not pain - how is this relevant to an article about pain? KillerChihuahua 05:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I have conformed the article to the edits by Vassyana at the fetus page. Moreover, there is a distinction between "pain" and "suffering" of which many readers may be unaware, and so it's worthwhile to let them know. As for the reference that KillerChihuahua objects to, would it be better to confine the discussion to one talk page? Should this be the one, KillerChihuahua, or would the fetus discussion page be more appropriate? Thanks.Ferrylodge 05:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I have already removed the "and suffering" added by Vassyana at fetus, and requested in my edit summary that Vassyana join us here. KillerChihuahua 05:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Is not suffering a concept closely related to pain? Is there not a distinction between the two? Would it not be useful for readers to understand (or at least be aware of) the distinction? Would two additional words in this article really be so harmful?Ferrylodge 05:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I left a message for Vassyana.Ferrylodge 06:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua, you recently asserted that I am "burning bridges left and right". Are you able to evaluate this question about pain and suffering neutrally, given that you think the bridge between us has been burned?Ferrylodge 06:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

You are begging the question. I have never asserted that I think any bridge between us has been burned. KillerChihuahua 06:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Both of you, this isn't the place for this. I know we all have a history of conflict between us, but lets not bring out personal stuff here (save that for user talk). Content discussion only please.-Andrew c 16:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll rephrase. Do you consider yourself to be among the people with whom you say I am "burning bridges left and right", and --- if so --- are you able to evaluate this question about pain and suffering neutrally?Ferrylodge 06:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the experienced editors here will be able to ignore your attempt to poison the well against me, and judge my edits and comments without bias. KillerChihuahua 06:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I regret that you think I'm trying to poison any well against you. I tried to ask you a question as gently as possible, and in good faith. I note that you have not answered it.Ferrylodge 06:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment. I was invited to come to this talk page. I will explain my edit and some of my take on this. I made the change I did in a sourced and neutral statement. I agree it is proper to link the first instance of the word. I feel the above removed comments should not be on the page; a bit too editorial. Also, there is a strong debate about fetal pain itself. We should avoid making speculative associations between postnatal and prenatal pain. I removed statements based on those sources at Fetus. However, suffering is mentioned in the source. Please see my comments on the Talk:Fetus page, as they explain more of my reasoning.

"The ability of a fetus to feel pain is often part of the abortion debate."

This is specific sentance I support the addition of "and suffering" to, based on the reference used to justify to the statement. Beginning the sentance with "The debate over the ability..." would help present a more NPOV. It is true that both are part of the debate, so it would be a neutral statement. Or at least that is my opinion. You're welcome to some salt. ;o) Vassyana 08:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

As Vassyana gives as a reason for inclusion of suffering that the word is used by the source: The source used is ReligiousTolerance.org, which has always been a source of contention regarding whether it can be considered a reliable source. That its used several times in the article concerns me slightly, and I think we should probably make an effort to re-source the content referenced by that essay (it is so described on the RT site) at some point. The essay itself uses CARE, a self-described 'mainstream Christian charity' for a source for that statement, which is attributed to an inquiry into "fetal sentience" conducted by the House of Lords in Britain in 2000. I cannot find the article ReligiousTolerance used as a source on the CARE site. However, as it is a study conducted by the House of Lords, a little digging will hopefully turn up a source on the study itself. I will post here if and when I locate a source, please if anyone else finds a source before I do note it here. I would like to see the phrase in context. All that said, that a 2000 study about fetal sentience used the word is not, IMO, a strong argument for inclusion of the word in this article. KillerChihuahua 16:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Update: the study was called the "Rawlinson Report" according to one site, for anyone else who is trying to find it. KillerChihuahua 16:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I found a source... but its from a letter (not article) in the 25 Jan 25 1997 edition of the BMJ "Do fetuses feel pain? Can fetal suffering be excluded beyond reasonable doubt?" written by the doctor who supported some pro-life parliamentarians. He argues that because the data is incomplete, one can not know if fetal suffering can be excluded beyond a resonable doubt. He uses the phrase "fetal suffering" in the title and a few times in his letter. It is basically an opinion piece. So I think that shows that fetal suffering is part of the abortion debate (which is what the sentence was trying to say, no?). However, I do not know how notable this view is.-Andrew c 16:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I ws actually hoping to find the original report; all the mentions which give a source give the CARE site. So far as I can tell, the word is used as synonymous with pain, so I see no reason to include it and potentially muddy the waters. KillerChihuahua 17:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

There's a a 1997 Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology report, Fetal Awareness. -Severa (!!!) 03:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Here we are: Commission of Inquiry into Fetal Sentience. It's been taken off the 'Christian Action Research & Education (C.A.R.E) web site so I had to dig it up off Archive.org. -Severa (!!!) 03:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Some additional material showing the discussion of fetal suffering:

1. Faithfull, Sara & Wells, Mary. Supportive Care in Radiotherapy (Elsevier 2003), page 161. Retrieved 2007-02-21.
2. Burchiel, Kim. Surgical Management of Pain (Thieme 2002), page 253. Retrieved 2007-02-21.
3. http://www.asahq.org/Newsletters/2001/10_01/white.htm
4. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15621061.400-a-painful-dilemma--experts-remain-divided-over-fetal-suffering.html
5. http://www.pcusa.org/pcnews/2006/06291.htm
6. http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/comm53.asp
7. http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04051707.html
8. http://www.uffl.org/vol12/collett12.pdf
9. http://facelife.org/look.htm
10. http://www.h50.net/2005/08/how-not-to-argue-abortion.html
11. http://www.popline.org/docs/0894/062131.html

Hope that helps. Vassyana 18:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping there might be some response to the previous helpful comment. Is the additional material provided by Vassyana considered adequate to support the edit? Absent any further response, I'll revert the reversion, on the assumption that the additional material is considered helpful and adequate.

Additionally, it is very straightforward to do a search in order to see that fetal pain and suffering are part of the abortion debate. If all of this material is not adequate, then please describe what kind of material is necessary.

Also see R. Frank White, M.D., "Are We Overlooking Fetal Pain and Suffering During Abortion?", American Society of Anesthesiologists Newsletter (October 2001).

Also see Barry David and Barth Howard Goldberg, "Recovering Damages for Fetal Pain and Suffering", Illinois Bar Journal (December 2002).

There are thousands of instances where fetal suffering is mentioned on the internet, and thousands of instances where fetal pain is mentioned on the internet. IMHO, this article on fetal pain ought link to the general Misplaced Pages articles on "pain" and "suffering", so that people will understand the difference. We're only talking about the insertion of two words here, one of which is a wikilink (i.e. "and suffering").Ferrylodge 07:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I think inclusion of the word "suffering" in relation to the abortion debate is pretty straight forward (as my own personal research, and yours and Vass's also showed). This article is sharping up. However, I'm a little concerned why "many" was changed to "some" in your otherwise neutral edit.-Andrew c 23:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I switched "many" to "some." The reference for that claim was religioustelerance.org, which in turn cited a JAMA article that is among the references for our fetal pain article. The JAMA article is (as I recall) somewhat controversial, due in part to involvement of some of its authors in pro-choice or abortion services. I'll try to address your concern, Andrew C., by reworking that sentence. Also, I have a link to the full JAMA article, instead of just a link to an abstract, and I'll install the better link.Ferrylodge 00:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've fixed it up some more. See what you think. One additional point that I think the article should address (at least briefly) is the point a lot of pro-life groups make: just because killing someone may not cause pain doesn't mean that doing so is okay. I'll see if there's some way to work in that issue in a neutral way.Ferrylodge 00:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that point should be raised in another article. I have no problem with this article mentioning the relevance of fetal pain to the Abortion Debate, but this is not the place to carry out any part of that debate. SheffieldSteel 02:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

If some ethicists believe that the issue of fetal pain is unimportant or morally irrelevant, I don't see why that opposing view cannot be mentioned here. Why not wait and see what I come up with?Ferrylodge 02:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the conclusion of the BMJ 2006 article? They say as much. Perhaps reading their phrasing could give you some ideas what could be done here.-Andrew c 03:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

No, what I mean is that many people believe that the entire question of whether a fetus feels pain is unimportant and morally irrelevant. They say that even if a fetus does not feel pain, that has no bearing on anything, because killing is wrong regardless of whether the victim suffers or not. If we're going to have a long article about fetal pain --- giving the impression that the answer to this question is important --- we ought to mention that it may not even be important (according to some ethicists).Ferrylodge 04:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the morality of abortion but does argue against legal and clinical efforts to prevent such pain during an abortion and An absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the question of whether abortion is morally acceptable or should be legal.-Andrew c 13:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

British Medical Journal article

The quotation taken from the article doesn't conclude that pain is dependent upon cognitive and emotional developments (in which case many animals would also be unable to feel pain, by the way, which is proposterous), it concluded that were it so, unborn babies would then be unable to feel pain.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.111.128.3 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 7 March 2007.

Please sign your talk page comments by typing four tildes (~~~~). Alternatively, you could hit the "Signature" button at the top of the edit window. You can see from everyone else on the talk page that we all are doing it. It helps everyone keep track of who is saying what. You can also read at the top of each talk page edit window This is a talk page. Please respect the talk page guidelines, and remember to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~). Thanks for your consideration. As for the BMJ article, they conclude: The neural circuitry for pain in fetuses is immature. More importantly, the developmental processes necessary for the mindful experience of pain are not yet developed. and 1)The neuroanatomical system for pain can be considered complete by 26 weeks' gestation 2)A developed neuroanatomical system is necessary but not sufficient for pain experience 3)Pain experience requires development of the brain but also requires development of the mind to accommodate the subjectivity of pain 4)Development of the mind occurs outside the womb through the actions of the infant and mutual adjustment with primary caregivers Their claims are pretty concrete. Your changes specifically soften them for no reason. I ask you to read the whole article and not one pull quote, and decide if your changes were necessary. For the time being I am reverting.-Andrew c 22:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Latest edit explination

There has been a lot of activity on this article with little discussion. We may need to take a bit slower than that, here are my changes:

I addressed the wordiness in the sentence in the first paragraph concerning the BMJ's study and abortion debate.

I moved the fetal pain law sentence up next to the sentence about the abortion debate.

I removed the sentence "Pain is only one aspect of suffering, and suffering is only one aspect of human emotion." because it is unsourced and POV pushing. It's commentary there for the only purpose of saying "this is a very complex issue and therefore the focus on fetal pain is only a small part of the picture. I believe this concept is adequately addressed elsewhere with citation. I added a fact tag tot he lethal injection analogy. Who makes this comparison? I quick google search didn't find anything relevent, seems like OR.

I restored the longstanding 2nd paragraph. The citation says: "Many physicians and researchers of fetal development believe... 'fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.'" then "Some mental and medical professionals suggest that a fetus cannot feel pain, no matter how far developed." and finally "Others, mostly pro-life advocates, believe that a fetus as early as 7 weeks after conception can feel pain". They make it clear that the majority view, and what the minoritiy views are, and I feel that a) we accurately represent that source with the way we word the 2nd paragraph, and that our source is accurately summarizing the source material.

We were confusing two different studies in UK, one from the RCOG and one from MRC. I added a section for the latter. I also restored my sentence which cites the actual paper's findings for the latter. I removed the fox news quote because it is no longer necessary.-Andrew c 14:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Abortion paragraph

The paragraph: Some scientists suggest that a lack of fetal pain "does not resolve the question of whether abortion is morally acceptable or should be legal". As one scientist has put it, "many in the community would recognise that the obligation not to harm other human subjects extends considerably beyond that of not causing pain."

Does this even belong in this article? We mention that Fetal pain is a factor in the Abortion debate. Details on that should be in that article. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 00:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. The previous paragraph (i.e. the first paragraph of the article) mentions abortion multiple times. The paragraph in question mentions it once more, and I think it's fine.

Andrew c recommended the Derbyshire quote, and I added the McCullach quote. I think they're both very important for putting the whole subject in context.

Derbyshire, by the way, thinks that pain can only be sensed after the third trimester (i.e. postnatally), whereas McCullagh thinks it may be possible in the early second or even in the first trimester. So, these two doctors are coming at this issue with diametrically opposite medical views, but they still agree on this point described in the paragraph at issue.Ferrylodge 01:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Neither sentence actually has any content about Fetal pain. The first talks about whether Abortion is morally acceptable, the second about whether pain is even the issue. The entire paragraph is citing scientists position on non scientific issues, a case of false authority. We are all aware that pain is not the only issue, moral questions are raised, and so on - all of which belongs in the Abortion debate article not this one, which the misleading "Some scientists suggest..." which is completely irrelevant to the questions being raised. Of course they have opinions, they are people as ell as scientists - but this is not a scientific issue. KillerChihuahua 01:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

These scientists both emphasized these points in articles they wrote about the science of fetal pain. They did so, because they did not want readers to misunderstand the subject, and did not want readers to draw unwarranted conclusions. The first paragraph of this article currently mentions abortion repeatedly, plus there is a huge sidebar about abortion. If these two very relevant sentences are removed, then many readers will draw the conclusion that the morality or legality of abortion are widely believed to hinge on the issue of fetal pain.

Here we have scientists from completely different sides of the fetal pain issue going out of their way to make sure that they and their arguments are not misunderstood or misused. To delete that would only promote misunderstanding and misuse.

I agree that an extended discussion of the legal and moral issues associated with fetal pain would be more appropriate in another article. But here we only have two sentences that merely give the reader the slightest glimpse of those related issues. I would really appreciate if we could leave these sentences in. I agree with Andrew C that the Derbyshire quote is relevant and appropriate, and the McCullagh quote is too.Ferrylodge 01:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not find the quotes relevant and appropriate to this article; further the paragraph is giving undue weight to the moral views of scientists. KillerChihuahua 09:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I've reworded the paragraph in an effort to meet your objections. It now says: "A lack of fetal pain does not necessarily 'resolve the question of whether abortion is morally acceptable or should be legal'. Still unresolved would be whether 'the obligation not to harm other human subjects extends considerably beyond that of not causing pain.'" These are not moral views, but rather statements of fact, and merely point out that pain is not the only issue. This is as straightforward as the opening sentence of the article: "Fetal pain is a subject of intense political and academic debate." If the paragraph in question is deleted, many people will think that pain is the only issue, or will attribute such a view to the scientists quoted in the article. Those scientists did not want that to happen; the paragraph in question cites one pro-choice scientist who thinks that a fetus cannot feel pain until after it is born, and one pro-life scientist who thinks that a fetus can feel pain before ten weeks. And despite this vast chasm of disagreement, they both acknowledge the fact that determining whether there's fetal pain does not resolve the matter. This is a very important paragraph to keep, and that's why I've tried to rephrase it. The footnotes now make clear that both of these people are not just scientists, but also people with political opinions. I don't think it would be possible to find any reputable source who has disagreed with the paragraph in question.Ferrylodge 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Recent Reversion by Andrew C

Andrew c, you recently made this reversion. You offered no explanation for the reversion at all, despite Misplaced Pages policy that reversions should be explained. Your edit summary said this: "restoring longstanding paragraph. don't revert things if you aren't going to respond on talk." When have I ever reverted something without responding on talk? Instead of making false accusations/insinuations, I think you yourself ought to try a little harder to be a good Wikipedian.

Look in the mirror to see who is unresponsive. I have already explained to you at the fetus discussion page: "There is no footnote to support the rest of the sentence: 'sometime during the pregnancy usually after 26 weeks gestation....'" You did not respond at all. Nada.

Please, andrew c, why does everything have to be a battle with you? Why do you violate Misplaced Pages policies, and pretend that I am somehow the one who will not "respond on talk"?

The sentence that I have repeatedly objected to is this: "Most scientists believe that a fetus is able to feel pain sometime during the pregnancy, usually after 26 weeks gestation although the question of exactly when pain might be possible is disputed." You have no footnote here, and so your sentence is uncited. Contrary to what you say, this sentence is not "longstanding" in this article; it was added by an anonymous user on 21 December 2006.

The idea that most scientists "usually" believe that pain is only possible after 26 weeks is not only unsupported by any footnote, but is also demonstrably false. I have quoted Arthur Caplan in the article: "there is no consensus among the medical and scientific experts about precisely when a fetus becomes pain-capable. Some put the point at 28 weeks. Others say 26 or 24 and still others younger still."

Apparently, you are putting the burden on me to prove that your uncited statement is false, which seems like a very odd way to operate. In any event, I will now insert the following info into the article: "a Daily Telegraph straw poll found many neurologists were concerned that foetuses could feel pain in the womb before 24 weeks after conception." Derbyshire, David, Foetuses 'may be conscious long before abortion limit', Telegraph (UK) 2003-09-03.Ferrylodge 02:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The section immediately preceding the previous section dealt with "my reversion", so I'm not sure why a new section has been started. You are a bully and you make things personal that shouldn't and I just cannot get along with you. I'm sorry. You win.-Andrew c 02:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

See here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ferrylodge (talk • contribs) 03:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC). Ferrylodge 03:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Andrew c, this editing process is not about winning or losing. It is about being accurate and neutral. If you discover that I have made any error, I would be glad to fix it.Ferrylodge 17:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I would just like to say that despite differences of opinion, I have always found Andrew c to be a reasonable and thoughtful editor who strives towards fairness and accuracy. He listens, speaks calmly, and really makes an effort towards consensus. I don't agree with some of his opinions but despite that I have found him to be a good neighbor. That's all. Joie de Vivre 16:05, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute Totallydisputed

The intro to this article is slanted towards the pro-life POV:

"A lack of fetal pain does not necessarily "resolve the question of whether abortion is morally acceptable or should be legal". Still unresolved would be whether "the obligation not to harm other human subjects extends considerably beyond that of not causing pain."

wtf. Joie de Vivre 15:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Joie, I believe you are being too hasty here. The sentences you quote are fully footnoted. As indicated in the footnotes, the first quote is from someone who "has served as an unpaid consultant to Planned Parenthood of Virginia and Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin, as well as the U.K.-based Pro-Choice Forum." The idea that this is pro-life POV is just not correct (incidentally, this quote was suggested by Andrew C). Additionally, the tag you placed on the article is also inappropriate because you did not identify "more than five dubious statements". Nor is "wtf" very civil.Ferrylodge 16:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Ferrylodge, LTNS. Please remember what I requested about capitalization and my username. Thanks. Onto Joie's concern. I agree that the totally disputed tag was unnecessary (misused). I believe the information contained in the first sentence is very important tot his article, though I'm not too keen on all the quoting (paraphrasing is generally more encyclopedic, especially in the LEAD). Just because a fetus hypothetically doesn't feel pain before week X, doesn't mean abortions before week X are moral. It seems pretty straight forward, and perhaps self evident, but it is something of interest to note here. As for the second sentence, the structure is a bit poor and the question is fairly vague/speculative. I do not see what concept it furthers that necessitates being in the LEAD. I would support removing the sentence for the lead, and perhaps, if otehrs feel strongly about including it, rewording it a bit and finding another place for it. -Andrew c 17:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

"Just because a fetus hypothetically doesn't feel pain before week X, doesn't mean abortions before week X are moral." But not everyone believes that abortions are immoral. This is a POV statement because it hinges on the idea of the morality of abortion, which some people don't think to be a moral issue at all. If we're going to include this statement, we should state who said it and in what context. Joie de Vivre 17:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Joie, we do state who said it and in what context, in the footnote. The person who said it is pro-choice. Why would he make a pro-life statement? The second quote (from the pro-life guy), is basically saying the same thing, and that's why I thought it would be useful to include both (i.e. to illustrate that this is a point of agreement).

Maybe it might also be useful to add a further sentence pointing out that, even if a fetus does feel a great deal of pain, then that does not necessarily resolve whether abortion is moral or should be legal. After all, many pro-choicers believe that abortion should be legal throughout nine months even though they acknowledge the fetus is fully human and sentient; they say that the mother's choice should outweigh the pain felt by the fetus.

But regardless of whether we include such an additional sentence, that does not affect whether the existing language is POV. It isn't. The existing language in no way implies that "presence of pain would make abortion immoral or illegal." By analogy, the absence of rain doesn't resolve whether we're having a nice day, nor does that obvious fact imply that the presence of rain resolves whether we're having a nice day. I have no objection to paraphrasing what's in the lede, as Andrew c suggested, although this may be the unusual case where paraphrasing may lead to more controversy (and so it may be better to stick with direct quotes).Ferrylodge 18:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. If it is paraphrased, the direct quotes should at least be put in the footnotes. But again, paraphrasing may just give us more trouble, so I'm not sure it's worth it. The main point is that Joie is criticizing a pro-choice guy for making an allegedly pro-life statement. This makes no sense. Even if the guy were pro-life, the quote simply does not imply that fetal pain makes abortion immoral.Ferrylodge 18:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The link to the quote is dead. Joie de Vivre 21:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. The dead link has now been replaced.Ferrylodge 21:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the NPOV tag on the article is due to concern that a quoted statement may have a pro-life slant. I have replaced a dead link in the footnote that shows the statement was actually made by a pro-choice activist. If there are no comments about the footnoted article, I'll assume that the dispute has now been resolved.Ferrylodge 22:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The word "context" comes to mind. It's not resolved. I can't talk about this at this time but it's not resolved. Joie de Vivre 23:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Joie, it's not fair to tag an article as an NPOV problem and then walk away. You tagged it five days ago because you said that a quoted statement had a pro-life slant. I pointed out that the statement was made by a pro-choice activist, and pointed you to the source of the quote. I don't see any indication that you've looked at that source, nor have you suggested any rephrasing of the material in the article.

I am going to remove the NPOV tag, and would recommend that you engage in discussion before putting the tag back on this article. I note that, in the past five days, you have had lots of time to address this. You have made an enormous amount of edits since April 5.Ferrylodge 16:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Andrew c, do you support the NPOV tag? If so, I could reinsert it. However, my understanding was that you had other concerns (e.g. that it would be better to paraphrase instead of quote in a lead).Ferrylodge 16:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I am not completely clear what the POV issue is with this article that Joie was bringing up. I think the 2nd sentence about unresolvable harm to human subjects is redundent and the article could benefit from its removal (not a POV concern though). Perhaps we could combine both sentences and keep both sources as a ref, but quote neither one. I personally would have waited a few more days to give Joie a chance to respond. One tag, even if we aren't sure what it is about, isn't going to hurt the article for a few more days. The editor did show interest in discussin on talk, and we clearly have not addressed those concerns completely in Joie's eyes (thus waiting until everyone is satisfied seems best). I see no need to stalk other users and become impatient. We should all be patient. Surely there is a good enough personal reason why we are being made to wait. I'll leave a note to Joie that we are becoming a bit impatient on talk, but I do not think we need to do anything hasty yet (it's been less than a week). -Andrew c 16:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Andrew c, if Joie would like to put the tag back on, and engage in discussion, then that's okay by me. I just think we should try our best to avoid a "drive-by tagging" situation.

As far as your assertion that I have "stalked" Joie, I really wish you would try not to exaggerate. All I did was take a brief look at her contribution page. I did not engage in any harassment or abuse, and did not even visit any of the dozens of articles that she has extensively edited since placing the tag at this fetal pain article.Ferrylodge 18:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Thank you, Andrew c, for reminding me to put in my opinion at this discussion. Frankly, I don't have the energy for this this week. The tag is gone for now, I will have to come back to this later. Joie de Vivre 17:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Breaking Up First Section

The first section is pretty long, and contains a whole lot of direct quotations. Rather than paraphrase, I think a simpler solution would simply be to insert a section break after the first paragraph, and insert a new section header: "Background". Ferrylodge 19:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

RCOG

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists is not a pro-choice group in the sense that we would list it in the external link section of the pro-choice article. The citation says that the organization "recognises that abortion is an essential part of women's healthcare services". No where in the citation does it claim that the RCOG is a pro-choice group. Doing a search for the term "pro-choice" on their official website yields zero hits. The most defining aspects of the RCOG is not it's political stance on abortion, and it almost seems non-sequitur to mention it in regards to their study on fetal pain (and it's original research to claim that they are a pro-choice group when that is not part of their self identification, nor stated by any other cited source). Additionally, I also do not think it is appropriate to go through every citation and qualify whether it is a pro-choice or pro-life study (if we do it with one study, what is stopping us from doing it with the rest?). This biases the reader in a way that doesn't seem neutral. -Andrew c 05:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be raising more than one issue here, so I'll just confine myself to the first issue, for the time being. You say that "No where in the citation does it claim that the RCOG is a pro-choice group." You are correct that the citation does not use the word "pro-choice", but that should not be necessary to determine if RCOG is pro-choice. Are you really going to argue that it is necessary to find the word "pro-choice" in a search of their official website?

Can we please try to be reasonable here? Pro-choice describes a view that a woman should have access to safe and legal abortion. That is RCOG's view.Ferrylodge 12:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

RCOG was founded in 1929, and eventually received a royal charter in 1947. A Royal Charter is merely a way of incorporating a body, by turning it into a single legal entity. Amendments to the Charter and by-laws require government approval, but the governing documents for RCOG impose no specific restrictions on its operation.

Just over half of RCOG's 11,000 members live outside Britain, spread in 83 countries. RCOG is dedicated to "improving sexual and reproductive healthcare worldwide." According to its web site, RCOG "recognises that abortion is an essential part of women's healthcare services and adequate investment and workforce is essential."

It is very clear that RCOG is a pro-choice organization, rather than pro-life or neutral.Ferrylodge 16:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Without a source, that is OR. Have you a source? KillerChihuahua 16:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources are provided at Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.Ferrylodge 18:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

A source which supports your assertion that RCOG is pro-choice? KillerChihuahua 18:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I did not edit this article to say that RCOG is "pro-choice." Someone else made that edit, and I have not taken a stance one way or the other as to whether it is desirable for this article to say what RCOG's position is with regard to abortion rights. You and Andrew c placed a "citation needed" tag on the edit, so I thought I would help out by finding a citation. In my opinion, the material cited at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists article amply shows that RCOG is a pro-choice organization.

Do you agree with Andrew c that an organization is required to describe itself be described using the word "pro-choice" in order for Misplaced Pages to conclude that the organization is "pro-choice"? As described above, this does not seem like a sensible requirement, because there are many ways of saying the same thing, without using the word "pro-choice".Ferrylodge 18:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It isn't just a matter of self-identity. We don't have any source (yet) that states that RCOG is a "pro-choice group". This is why I said, in my first post above nor stated by any other cited source. Therefore, you are misrepresenting my view by saying that I required nothing short of self-identity in order for us to include this information. But since you bring it up, maybe we can bypass this source mess by all agreeing that the label "pro-choice" isn't appropriate here from the get go.-Andrew c 19:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand, Andrew c. Why is a synonym of "pro-choice" insufficient for you? It seems like you are requiring magic words here. If RCOG describes itself (or instead a third source describes RCOG) using language synonymous to "pro-choice", why is that not equivalent to using the verbatim term pro-choice?Ferrylodge 20:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, do you have a source? KillerChihuahua 20:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I provided an answer to your question above. "In my opinion, the material cited at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists article amply shows that RCOG is a pro-choice organization." You have not responded to that.

And, would you please answer my question? "Do you agree with Andrew c that an organization is required to be described using the word 'pro-choice' in order for Misplaced Pages to conclude that the organization is 'pro-choice'?"

Perhaps if you would acknowledge the answer I gave to your question, and would reply to my question, then we could make some progress here. I would be delighted to find a source that meets whatever requirement you may have, but I need to know what your requirements are.Ferrylodge 20:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The info at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists article includes the following. The governing documents for RCOG impose no specific restrictions on its operation. RCOG is dedicated to "improving sexual and reproductive healthcare worldwide." According to its web site, RCOG "recognises that abortion is an essential part of women's healthcare services and adequate investment and workforce is essential." How is this info inadequate to establish that RCOG is a pro-choice organization?Ferrylodge 21:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I pointed out above that it is false to say that I believe self-identity is the only method of verification acceptable for wikipedia. Please stop attributing claims to me that I did not make. Our requirements for verifiability are the same as WP:V. We cannot verify the claim that RCOG is a "pro-choice group" because we have no sources that state this claim. All we have is "Ferrylodge believes that official statement X on RCOG's website is synonymous with some unknown definition of 'pro-choice group'". While it may seem silly to you that we are requiring a citation for this claim, you have to understand that wikipedia works on verifiability. If we are the only source in the entire world that makes the claim that the RCOG is a "pro-choice group", then we are publishing something for the first time, hence it is original research. But like I said above, all this sourcing and verifiability talk is moot if we can come to an agreement that this information shouldn't be included in the article in the first place. I'd be happy to move on and strike the comment. In fact, I'd rather turn the discussion from basic wikipedia policies to why we need to mention "pro-choice group" in the first place. -Andrew c 21:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Andrew c, please don't put words in my mouth. I do not claim that you "believe self-identity is the only method of verification." What you have claimed is that someone, whether it be RCOG or some other source, must use the words "pro-choice" to describe RCOG. Isn't this what you have said? You wrote above: "No where in the citation does it claim that the RCOG is a pro-choice group." So, if I find a citation from RCOG or from somewhere else that says RCOG adamantly supports unlimited abortion rights, then you say it's inadequate for our purposes because it fails to use the magic words "pro-choice." Isn't that your position? That has absolutely nothing to do with self-identity.Ferrylodge 22:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

it has to do with sourcing, and hence, NOR. Can we be done now? KillerChihuahua 22:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I have just inserted additional sourcing in a new footnote to the article, and I'll reformat the footnote if the sourcing is acceptable. In the edit summary, I say: "These citations do not use the words 'pro-choice' verbatim. Is synonymous language acceptable?"

I hope that KillerChihuahua and Andrew c will address why synonymous language is or is not acceptable to them. I have asked over and over again in this thread, without answers.

The new footnote says: "RCOG is dedicated to 'improving sexual and reproductive healthcare worldwide', and 'recognises that abortion is an essential part of women's healthcare services and adequate investment and workforce is essential.' In England, RCOG is 'opposed to a reduction in the time limits for abortion.'"Ferrylodge 22:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't make them specifically pro-choice, but it does rule out pro-life, rather definitively. KillerChihuahua 22:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The way you have it phrased, they are a "pro-choice group" - they're not. You've found a source which shows their sympathies, or professional view, or whatever, is not anti-abortion. It may even establish their position as pro-choice, I'm not sure - I'll have to think that one over. But the RCOG is not a pro-choice group. They are a college, which may be described as sympathetic to the pro-choice position, or similar phrasing, but their focus is on women's health. Do you see the difference? Describing them as a "pro-chjoice group" is simply misleading, makes them sound like they are an activist group, or that is their mission statement, or something. KillerChihuahua 22:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference Derby was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. McCullagh Peter. "Fetal sentience. London: All-Party Parliamentary Pro-Life Group (1996). Dr. McCullagh is a Senior fellow in developmental physiology at the John Curtin School of Medical Research, Australian National University. This report was reprinted in the Catholic Medical Quarterly, XLV11 no 2, November 1996, p6. Retrieved 2007-03-10.

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