Revision as of 23:38, 27 May 2007

This is a page for working on arbitration decisions. The arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only arbitrators may edit, for voting.

Motions and requests by the parties

Separation of issues

1) That the personal conduct of individual users (specifically Davkal) be kept separate from the wider issue of paranormal/skeptical editing. For example, one of the complaints against Davkal was that he/she made inappropriate comments about a southern user This is prejudicial and 100% irrelevant to the issue at hand.

perfectblue 09:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

We want to try to look at each individual's behavior and also offer general guidance, without determining specific content. Fred Bauder 20:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. The views of a single editor should not reflect on disputes involving multiple editors. --Nealparr 20:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that this is 100% irrelevant to the issue at hand. Part of this arbitration is that there exists a concerted camp of paranormal supporters that use tactics unbecoming of Misplaced Pages. This is in contrast to the supposed "pseudoskeptical" camp. --ScienceApologist 13:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Here I am agreeing that the issue of user conduct shouldn't rule out other issues raised even if they aren't ruled on.

--Nealparr 17:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed temporary injunctions

Rednblu is not helpful

1) As happened in Pseudoscience arbitration, User:Rednblu has been more of a distraction than a helpful contributor. Due to his contentious history, I move that he be banned from posting in this arbitration.

Comment by Arbitrators:

We don't do it that way. So long as it is not excessively disruptive all input is welcome at the workshop level. Absurd suggestions frame sensible ones. And what I saw is not absurd, "science" is used both scientifically and in a popular sense. For example, while I have seen jurisprudence described as the "science of law", I recall little analysis which would meet scientific standards. Fred Bauder 20:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

--ScienceApologist 22:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree that Rednblu's contributions appear to be consistently eccentric interpretations and oddly-posed challenges "Look at the facts of life, my friend" and as such, are mostly distracting and unhelpful to the process of arbitration. - LuckyLouie 00:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Who is this guy, anyway? Does he commonly show up to RfArbs out of the blue? It's like someone resurrected Salvador Dali! Simões (/_contribs) 23:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Seems like he's hijacking this RfArb to fight old battles with SA. - LuckyLouie 06:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I first encountered Rednblu when he staked out a quixotic position in the early throes of Misplaced Pages's attempts to deal with creationism. He had a peculiar non-committal opinion on the matter which ended up supporting the creationists who were on Misplaced Pages at the time advocating for space to proselytize. When systematic marginalization of creationism began occuring per WP:WEIGHT, Rednblu became convinced that WP:NPOV was contradictory with WP:CON and began engaging in policy debates to the tune of getting angry at those who advocated for marginalization of non-mainstream ideas within the context of mainstream prose. He participated in an almost irrelevant manner (except that there was a lot of text wasted) in the Pseudoscience arbitration and has popped up here again to play the same fiddle arguing that science doesn't use the scientific method and basically supporting an extremist form of anti-elitism. --ScienceApologist 03:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure about what you are talking about? I checked Rednblu's userpage, and in the beginning he says he disbelieve creationism, which is exactly opposite of what you are stating here. Wooyi 03:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtains! I definitely know what I'm talking about and you'll note I never said anything about Rednblu's beleifs about creationism, only that his advocacy is tuned toward sympathetically covering controversial content. --ScienceApologist 12:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I would imagine that our friend remembers quite well our actual conversations. And here are his excellent replies. Then as now, I question those who use their own certainty to rip out actual NPOV and declare false consensus by gang tactics. If there were an actual Misplaced Pages wide straw poll such as here of over 400 voting Misplaced Pages editors in which over 60% of those editors voted Support for our friend's labels of "Science" and "Pseudoscience," I would have no objections to the way our friend has enforced the assignment of those labels. But I state as a falsifiable hypothesis that over 60% of Misplaced Pages editors voting in such a poll would Oppose our friend's enforcement of those labels throughout Misplaced Pages because those labels violate all reasonable measures of mainstream assessments by ReliableSources. And the violations are particularly harmful to all of the affected Misplaced Pages pages about living people. --Rednblu 05:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

This is not the proper place to make such assertions. We have areas in Misplaced Pages for asking the opinions of the community. Here is not the location, nor is it worth anyone's time to discuss these hypothetical polls. --ScienceApologist 12:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

'Disagree: Unless a user is being purposefully disruptive they have a right to be heard. - perfectblue 17:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Propose': That entries such as this be prohibited. They give the appearance of a skeptic trying to stifle other views. - perfectblue 17:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

So an arbcom workshop page is an opportunity for anyone, even those not involved with a dispute, to rant about whatever they want, and attack other users, regardless of how little it is related to the arbcom case? There's censorship and there's "please stop being so ridiculously off topic". --Minderbinder 20:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Disagree You might disagree with his suggestions, but the suggestions themselves seem certainly legit and not disruptive. His "dictionary" approach is rather textualist, not what I fully agree with, but they are legitimate arguments. There is nothing inherently wrong with using dictionaries to ascertain a textual interpretation of science and pseudoscience. Wooyi 00:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

What makes his arguments legitimate? That he makes them? Or a better questions: what, in your book, would make an argument illegitimate? --ScienceApologist 00:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

An "illegitimate" argument would be one that is unreasonable, completely unfathomable, or from clear egregious bad faith. Advocating the use of dictionary to ascertain the meaning of science and pseudoscience is just a kind of textual approach, which is nothing inherently wrong (many jurists today still use plain meaning or textual approach in regards to law). What's your argument that his views are completely unreasonable? I might disagree with textualism, but the textual approach itself there is nothing to prove it as totally wrong. Wooyi 01:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the edits listed by LuckyLouie live up to the standards you put forth. What's more, when Rednblu claimed that there wasn't a single English dictionary that used the scientific method to define science, this was clearly shown to be false. This edit to me seems particularly tendentious. --ScienceApologist 03:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. Which mainstream dictionary did you think defined science as only scientific method? --Rednblu 06:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Same one you used. See your argument deftly deflated by MastCell below. --ScienceApologist 23:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You mean the dictionary definition that the honorable User:MastCell quoted that has five parallel parts and gives the usage example of "the science of dressing for success"? But the scientific method that I know and love requires falsifiability and much, much more than the puny requirement of "systematic observation and experiment" in that definition. That definition would label each and every member of Category:Pseudoscience as a "science" because they each and every one do "systematic observation and experiment." Did you actually read the definition that the honorable User:MastCell gave you? So it seems again you have demonstrated just how counter to mainstream usage is your POV campaign on Misplaced Pages to distinguish "science" from what you call "pseudoscience." It appears that only a tiny minority of ReliableSources across anthropology, linguistics, philosophy, . . . agree with this distinction between "science" and "pseudoscience" to which you in good faith attempt to force the accused in this case to kneel. --Rednblu 08:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

You are writing now without verifiable references. It's all well and good to pontificate as you are doing, but I have yet to see any evidence that these pseudosciences utilitze systematic observation and experiment. --ScienceApologist 11:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Would you agree that this whole Misplaced Pages problem of "science" versus "pseudoscience" would go away if we could get all the Misplaced Pages editors to agree to use ReliableSources that apply the "Verifiability, not truth" standards of Halliday & Resnick? --Rednblu 02:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. --ScienceApologist 03:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

(unindented) I don't understand why you have to pick on Rednblu. I may disagree with his views, but is textualism inherently evil in your books? In many cases textualism would be a valid approach. Wooyi 04:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Pick on? Have you read some of the condescending comments Rednblu has written about me? Anyway, Misplaced Pages's policies and precedents are clear, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience being the obvious goto for this point. As a resource that is supposed to report knowledge and not just "ordinary meaning", not allowing editors to correct straightforward (albeit common) linguistic misconceptions is an unacceptable practice. --ScienceApologist 04:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Support, Rednblu's comments shed more heat than light here, and his interpretations in respect of non-mainstream topics are well known not to be anywhere close to Misplaced Pages norms. Guy (Help!) 20:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

His interpretation is known as textualism, aka "use the dictionary" or in some extent similar to plain meaning approach. Antonin Scalia often uses it, so it's not really an invalid argument. Wooyi

Editor review 20:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Textualism has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not a court of law and Misplaced Pages doesn't function this way. Furthermore, not all of his comments are event "textualist", some are just plain unhelpful. JoshuaZ 23:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Support injunction, and that textualism article describes textualism as a legal approach used by some judges for interpreting statutes. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a court, and we're discussing an issue of presentation style for articles, not statutory (or wp policy) interpretation. That article also describes Scalia rejecting using the dictionary on words in isolation as Rednblu is trying to do. When the context is science, use the interpretation found in reliable scientific sources. 75.62.7.22 08:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks by User:Tom Butler

2) User:Tom Butler has now stepped beyond the bounds of civility in this arbitration proceeding by lobbing personal attacks at me here "LuckyLouie, what kind of yellow journalism are you up to now?" and here "You are just muckraking in an effort to find damning evidence and all that you find is only testimony to your warped sense of reality.". Rather than allow this to continue, I move that User:Tom Butler be formally warned by Arbcom that any further attack will result in his being banned from participating in this arbitration.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

LuckyLouie 02:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree-Wikidudeman 20:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Disagree: Disciplinary issues should be handled separately, all users should be allowed to say their piece here. To do otherwise could be considered to be allegorous to banning election rigging by censoring one candidate - perfectblue 17:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Disagree as a party in his dispute he should be able to have a voice. And the alleged personal attack isn't anywhere close to serious, either. Wooyi 20:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree he should have a voice, but his voice must not accuse individuals of muckraking, yellow journalism, and a warped sense of reality. I would like him to voluntarily cease such behavior. - LuckyLouie 03:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

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Questions to the parties

Proposed final decision

Proposed principles

Coverage of fringe views

1) Misplaced Pages is not an appropriate venue for advocacy. Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view provides for all significant views to be documented, but does not require that they be accepted. Per previous consensus at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience, minority and fringe views should be explicitly identified as such.

Comment by Arbitrators:

"Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." is the exact language from the prior decision. "Paranormal" could reasonably be substituted for "astrology". Fred Bauder 15:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment: Agreed. --Nealparr 22:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but allowance must be made in WP:RS for this. At present skeptical users merely declare the sources for non-accepted views as being non WP:RS and delete them wholesale. - perfectblue 09:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Most of them are indeed unreliable. I think this does need to be addressed, but under a separate head. Guy (Help!) 11:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not sure what "allowance" is requested in RS. If an editor wants to add details of an experiment done by an individual and describe technical details, it needs a reliable source and shouldn't just be self published. There are currently a number of examples of experiments like this in the EVP article that are still probematic. --Minderbinder 12:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think WP:RS needs to be modified because it covers this. I did want to point out, however, that "unreliable" is not black and white and largely depends on the statement the source is supporting. The Journal of Parapsychology might be seen as an unreliable source carte blanche, but that's not true at all. It's a very reliable source for understanding what goes on in parapsychology.

--Nealparr 18:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Skeptical users need to accept that there is a difference between verifying that "claim was made" or that "a belief is held" and verifying said claim or belief as being science. inclusion does not equal advocacy, only proof of existence - perfectblue 07:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

There are occasions where proof of existence is not enough. That where Misplaced Pages:Notability comes into play. --ScienceApologist 09:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think most editors would be very happy if the topics in question were presented as "beliefs being held". Problem is POV editors insisting on presenting beliefs as "proven" by experiments, particularly ones only covered by dubious sources. --Minderbinder 12:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, But only per Perfectblue's comments above. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 21:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

To make this clearer: skeptics form a minority relative most paranormal subjects- you can sometimes document the extent of belief and disbelief. Usually, the belief is much stronger. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Your line of reasoning is problematic. Suppose we look to a non-paranormal example to try to stay neutral here. Look back to David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. A small minority of people, namely the branch davidians, held that David Koresh was the "Lamb". There were a few skeptics, although these were among the minority. However, very few people in the world knew about the branch davidians at all. Now, based on your criteria, the "skeptical" viewpoint would be the minority viewpoint in this case. The approach that you outlined is problematic and dangerous. Antelan 03:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that analogy is that there's a difference in saying Koresh was believed to be the "Lamb" by his followers and saying Koresh is the "Lamb". The first statement doesn't really require input from the rest of the world where the second statement probably would. The first statement would suffer weak skepticism (do they actually believe that?) where the second would suffer great skepticism (that's complete bullshit!). I think what Martinphi is saying is that if you check the stats on, say ESP, you might find something like 40% believe, 30% don't know or don't care, and 30% disbelieve (made up numbers). None of this reflects whether or not ESP actually exists. It only reflects a percentage of belief and raises the question, well what is the fringe view? It gets to be an even more complicated question when you come up with pretty solid numbers that suggest (again, made up) that in science 90% disbelieve and 10% believe. Then you take that number and look at overall stats and see that in the general population 10% are scientists and 90% are other professions. Then you've got a real mind boggler. If the majority in science are skeptic, but the majority in the general population aren't, what's the actual ratio of the skeptical position?

Beats me, but as a mainstream encyclopedia, it seems relevant to Misplaced Pages.

--Nealparr 05:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Antelan, that is precisely why I would say -if asked- that this minority/majority thing has real problems. I think that this standard can be reasonably applied, but it is more or less a matter of editorial judgment. And the fact is, if we really obey the ArbCom, we pretty often say the skeptical view is the minority view. That's just the rules; I'm not defending them. But I do say that we must never assume a majority, or equate majority with skeptical, the way many skeptical editors do. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 06:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

proposedGuy (Help!) 10:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Seems fundamental and uncontroversial, although often ignored. MastCell 15:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Bubba73 (talk), 02:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Support LuckyLouie 02:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment. In addition to "minority and fringe views should be explicitly identified as such," we should follow WP:NPOV, which requires that minority and fringe views to be given lesser representation than mainstream views, especially when coupled with a lack of verifiable sources. Antelan 19:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Scientific point of view vs. neutral point of view

2) While the scientific point of view and the neutral point of view are not synonymous, they may be considered equivalent, or at least very closely aligned, in the case of subjects portrayed as scientific. In matters of science, the neutral point of view is best represented by consensus among the mainstream scientific community, as judged by publication and debate in the scientific journals. Due consideration should be given to the reputation of and community served by the journals. Papers in Nature are given substantially more weight by the scientific community than are papers in minority journals focusing on the fringes of various disciplines.

This does not prevent the coverage of minority or fringe views, provided that it is made clear that they are not generally accepted within the scientific community. Previous discussion of this issue may be found at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Our policy is Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view Fred Bauder 22:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I agree with this to the extent that paranormal topics are presented from a scientific point of view. This is not always the case. Many times paranormal phenomena are closely tied to religious beliefs and are presented from a religious/spiritual perspective. Obviously in these cases, science would be on the back-burner. An article on reincarnation, for example, shouldn't have to suffer undue science, unless presented from a scientific perspective.

--Nealparr 22:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

In many cases subjects are not scientific and do not pretend to be. Famous hauntings, for example. Some slack needs to be given to editors here to allow them to record "claims and beliefs". Equally, in many cases there is no mainstream consensus. Mainstream scientists have not covered many topics so there is no scientific consensus even though there is a clearly defined topic. - perfectblue 09:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Which is why I included the rider subjects portrayed as scientific. Guy (Help!) 11:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

While "claims and beliefs" that are notable should be documented, they need to be clearly labled as claims and beliefs. A major problem with these articles is presenting a belief and insisting that as a belief, it shouldn't be refuted with science...but then adding "scientific" detail about studies which claim to have proven the belief. --Minderbinder 12:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Minderbinder. If science is introduced, science gets a say. EMF detectors, for example, are used in ghost hunting. Mainstream science should get a say on how EMF detectors actually work if they're mentioned. Tougher situations might be the ghost article itself. Here, it's fully represented as a belief, but science still gets their digs in : ) It's a notable view, though, so that's alright. Just pointing out how there shouldn't be a "science has the only word" policy.

--Nealparr 18:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree that science "gets a say" in this case, however we must be cautious not to position mainstream science as a minority who have the "burden of disproof" with regard to extraordinary paranormal claims. -- LuckyLouie 18:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Guy (Help!) 11:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Bubba73 (talk), 04:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support, perhaps with greater emphasis on the qualifier "...in the case of subjects portrayed as scientific." Part of the problem here is a desire to have one's cake and eat it too - that is, to say that paranormal topics shouldn't have to answer to the same standards as mainstream science, but at the same time to portray paranormal research as a valid scientific field. MastCell 15:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support per MastCell. - LuckyLouie 02:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I have slight reservations about this. For many pseudoscience and paranormal articles the above is true by default because almost by nature the scientific viewpoints are much more likely to be expressed in reliable sources. However, there is a problem when a topic like EPV get some press in the mainstream media but are so incredibly outside the realm of anything that any serious scientist would both investigating that there are almost no actual scientific statements about it in reputable journals. In such cases, the above finding becomes reasonable and relevant. JoshuaZ 23:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. SPOV is not a NPOV. A neutral point of view is best represented by objectivity. SPOV explicitly states and takes a POV which is not Neutral (eg., a stance or tone that is free from bias). J. D. Redding 18:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

SPOV v. NPOV, Version A: Verifiability

2a) Both scientific point of view and neutral point of view apply the standard "Verifiability, not truth." Both points of view value primary publications of original research as sources for what the authors have said, but both points of view depend on secondary researchers to apply the appropriate professional standards of "Verifiability, not truth" in verifying the value of assertions of both primary and secondary sources. However, neutral point of view applies to fields such as parapsychology in which the scientific method provides no Verifiable results. That is, neutral point of view still requires that ReliableSources use the standard of "Verifiability, not truth" of the appropriate discipline even though, in parapsychology for example, the professional standards for "Verifiability" might be quite different from the "Verifiability" standards of the scientific method.

Comment by arbitrators:

Our policy is Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view Fred Bauder 22:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Separation of variables as a principle for editing is a technique that draws perilously close to a sympathetic point of view rather than a neutral point of view. Claiming that science has "no verifiable results" is highly contentious and therefore should not be an endorsed position of this encyclopedia. Try Wikinfo if you want a sympathetic encyclopedia. --ScienceApologist 09:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a pretty way of saying that since believers in new age ideas tend to be gullible, wikipedia should be too. Further, the assertion that "the scientific method produces no verifiable results" is original research and (how to put this politely?) at odds with established knowledge. Oppose SheffieldSteel 13:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it's a brain fart, but I'm not exactly sure what this proposition is asking for : ) Maybe an example would help.

--Nealparr 18:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Rednblu 03:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why we would use this form of words. Considering verifiability in isolation from neutrality and appropriate weight is a recipe for p

SPOV v. NPOV, Version B: Sliding scale

2b) Misplaced Pages's quality control standard is "Verifiability, not truth." But in some situations, all that can be "Verified" are published personal statements of opinion. So Misplaced Pages editors must apply a "sliding scale" in reporting whether an assertion is "disproved" or "discredited," such as reporting that Lavoisier "disproved the phlogiston theory by . . ." or reporting that phrenology is a "now discredited belief that . . . ". Where the scientific method provides repeatable results, it is appropriate to report that a line of inquiry, such as phlogiston theory, is "disproved." However, for those situations, such as claims and explanations of paranormal events, where the scientific method does not provide repeatable results from falsifiable hypotheses, Misplaced Pages editors must rely on what can be "Verified," which may be only the published remarks of several contradictory views on an issue. For example, "scientists," "parapsychologists," and "paranormal advocates" have published personal contradictory evaluations of paranormal claims and explanations, none of which can be "Verified" by the scientific method in repeatable results from falsifiable hypotheses.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Our policy is Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view Fred Bauder 22:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Oppose since again this is based on the spurious notion that the scientific method is somehow incapable of providing repeatable results. Studies and metastudies into various paranormal fields disagree with this assertion. SheffieldSteel 13:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Rednblu 17:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

To the honorable User:SheffieldSteel: Please correct me if I am wrong. So far, the scientific method has provided only trivially null results on claims and explanations of paranormal events. Is that not so? --Rednblu 14:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please try to talk in normal everyday english. Your choice of words is not helpful. SheffieldSteel 02:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. What Verifiable results do you think the scientific method gives about paranormal events? --Rednblu 04:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Um... all of them? Perhaps I don't understand the question. It looks like you are asking me to provide a summary of all scientific research into paranormal phenomena, and then comment on which of the results are verifiable. But surely that is a question for researchers (or, better still, literature review writers) to answer. SheffieldSteel 19:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it appears that he is placing the burden of negative proof on you. He is saying, "Science has not yet definitively proven that the paranormal claims are false." His statement is trivially true, simply because his argument is based off of a gross misunderstanding of the role and methods of science. A more valid and pertinent statement would say, "Using the scientific approach, no paranormal claims have been verified in a repeatable manner." Antelan 19:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Wooyi 21:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

This looks like special pleading to me. Paranormal phenomena fall broadly into two categories: those which have been subject to scientific exploration, but have not been proven; and those which have been ignored by the scientific establishment, often because they are considered self-evidently bogus by scientists. This seems to argue that we ignore what science has to say because it is not "right", for values of right which are defined by one side of the debate. Guy (Help!) 11:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Notable/knowledgeable fringe views

3) Most mainstream scientists simply have no dealings with Psi, so-called "ghost hunting" or other fringe areas, and thus are not wholly qualified to discuss them in anything but a general fashion, we must therefore accept the views, finding and opinions of individual who have experience in the field as being important/relevant, even if they make up a minority of the total body of science (as being relevant, not as being mainstream, I may add).

Proposal: When dealing with Parapsychology, the view of the majority within parapsychology be declared to be "Significantly notable and valid for inclusion, despite being a fringe" even if it clashes with the majority outside of Parapsychology.

Failure to accept the opinions of the experienced minority within the inexperienced majority is the equivalent to stating that "astronomy is a fringe science and its conclusions are invalid because 9 out of 10 scientists research other areas".

perfectblue 08:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Unacceptable, psi is not generally dealt with because it generally considered not worth investigating, not because scientists are unfamiliar with the field or would be incompetent should they chose to investigate aspects of the field. There is no way the gullible or opportunistic are going to be given a special status as experts in the field. Fred Bauder 15:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Unnecessary. This is already covered by WP:NPOV, especially WP:NPOV#Undue weight, and WP:ATT. If a crank or fringe belief is notable, it can be covered by reference to its notable proponents, and described in neutral terms. What that does not mean, and what appears to be desired in the above form of words, is that it be covered uncritically. If a crank belief is rejected by the scientific establishment, we should say so. If it is completely ignored by the scientific establishment, we should say that. If it is untested by anyone not already vested in its promotion, we should say that. Misplaced Pages is not here to build up the mythology of psi, it is here to document it as a mythology, just like any other belief system based on intangibles. Guy (Help!) 11:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

1) It has to more directly stated. skeptics are constantly abusing the status quo. They simply bash anything that's not from a scientific journal using WP:RS to delete sources, WP:Weight to delete whole perspective and WP:NPOV to allow only skeptical scientists (note that scientists who are not skeptical are generally WP:RS bashed out). 2)"If a crank belief is rejected by the scientific establishment, we should say so", you try getting a skeptic to WP:V that. They simply won't or they cite Skeptics Dictionary rather than a scientist. 3) "Misplaced Pages is not here to build up the mythology of psi, it is here to document it as a mythology" you try doing this when Skeptics just dismiss everything that isn't science based. We need a statement SPECIFICALLY dealing with htese cases in order to stop abuse. - perfectblue 12:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Strong disagree. We can't present claims with an undue weight just because they are obscure enough that the mainstream hasn't commented. If they are notable, we should present them, but it should be very clear that the views presented aren't mainstream ones and haven't been accepted (or even mentioned in many cases) by mainstream publications or scientists, when the idea is proposed as scientific. --Minderbinder 12:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Huge Disagree. Misplaced Pages can only report on minority opinion, it cannot publish that opinion as fact. When trying to "document" a minority opinion, some editors insist on minority claims being "documented" as factual. Also, be advised, skepticism is an essential part of the scientific method. LuckyLouie 18:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The proposal only asks that the view of parapsychologists be considered notable and relevant to parapsychology, and that it is valid for inclusion. I completely agree with that. That isn't to say that it is notable to the exclusion of critical analysis and neutrality, but perfectblue didn't say that. This policy I support because it would prevent the wholesale removal of anything coming from, say, the Journal of Parapsychology, which is entirely relevant to parapsychology. Pigeon hole parapsychology, don't exclude it, especially in relation to its own article.

--Nealparr 18:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is that equal in notability to parapsychology advocates are those who criticize them and perfectblue ignored them. --ScienceApologist 13:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The big difference is that when you add in a notable skeptic, I don't delete it. - perfectblue 07:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

That's certainly not true. E.g. --ScienceApologist 09:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

PerfetBlue has also taken sourced statements and changed them into something the source does not say. Bubba73 (talk), 20:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Fringe belief still exists, and in many cases the fringe is strong and notable, just not scientifically backed.

perfectblue 07:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous proposal . This almost amounts to claiming that scientists aren't qualified to comment because they aren't credulous enough. JoshuaZ 23:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed (not with the previous comment, but agreeing with Perfectblue's proposal. Wooyi 21:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. This flies in the face of WP:NOT#SOAP and WP:NPOV. From NPOV: "A good way to build a neutral point of view is to find a reputable source for the piece of information you want to add to Misplaced Pages, and then cite that source." Anybody can edit articles, especially when backed by reputable sources. Most mainstream scientists have plenty of experience with finding, evaluating, and citing evidence. Antelan 19:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Belief/Experiments that exists independently of science (a question of notability)

4) That "popular beliefs which exist in the face of scientific evidence", and "experiments/event that are unscientific but are important on sociological and/or historical grounds" be declared valid for inclusion on the grounds of their notability within the field rather than their scientific value, and that sources used to reference them similarly be declared as having to be notable within the field rather than peer-review science.

For example, the "belief" that cattle mutilations are caused by aliens/black helicopters, sourced to Linda Howe. A notable belief and a notable author. Though without any scientific merit.

perfectblue 09:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

This can be phrased much better, but yes, phenomena which have captured the popular imagination are notable and should be covered. Such coverage properly includes the sort of material exemplified by the work of Linda Howe. However they should be presented as what they are, not a reliable scientific sources. Fred Bauder 15:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

As clear an indication as could be desired that parapsychology is not science. The default in the scientific method is scepticism, scientists are required to suspend belief and actively try to disprove their own hypotheses. This proposal amounts to special pleading and is, in my view, without merit as a principle within Misplaced Pages. Indeed, it would be actively dangerous, I think, in that it would raise a separate standard of verifiability for subjects which lack supporting evidence. We already allow, through WP:ATT and WP:NPOV, for coverage of notable crank beliefs on the basis of being notable as crank beliefs (cf. Time Cube), so this would also be unnecessary instruction creep. Guy (Help!) 11:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, you appear ot be unaware of exactly what parasyychology is. The paranormal and Parapsychology ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Parapsychology is a very small subset of the paranormal mostly only covering Psi. Most paranormal pages are NOT parapsychology. Crop circles, urban myths, cattle mutilation and so on ARE NOT part of Parapsychology. Parapsychology is things like telepathy, remote viewing, and so on.

I'm not asking for anything new, I'm simply asking that it be clarified that paranormal myths and legends (modern hauntings, etc) should have a similar WP:RS leeway as ancient myths and legends, and that popular belief in the paranormal be given the same leeway as urban legends. Belief in "Things that go bump in the night" is not scientific in the slightest and so it is unreasonable to ask for scientific evidence. - perfectblue 12:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The overly broad definition of "paranormal" (approaching "everything where the establishment must be battled") is IMHO the core problem here. By the current defintion in Paranormal, following phenomena would be paranormal: Cold fusion, Water fuelled car, faster than light travel, Homoeopathy, ... --Pjacobi 12:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that we should present notable beliefs if they are identified as such, but I strongly disagree that we should present experiments published by sources that don't meet RS. Per undue weight and RS, presenting experiments that haven't been published by a reliable source, haven't been peer reviewed, haven't been cited in other publications, and haven't been reproduced by others, is usually giving attention (and credibility) that isn't appropriate. "Historical" shouldn't be a loophole to publish experiments that haven't been published or scrutnized.

And I have no objection to presenting "modern myths". The problem is the continued insistence on describing these "myths" in scientific terms and presenting claims that experiments have proved them. The inclusion of scientific refutation is generally a response to scientific claims. --Minderbinder 12:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

"I strongly disagree that we should present experiments published by sources that don't meet RS". When dealing with the paranormal WP:RS should be used to ensure the accuracy of reporting, not the scientific validity an experiment itself. For example, how can we report on a statement made by notable crank if we can't use the tabloid rag in which he published it. WP:RS must be subjective, strong WP:RS for science to verify science, weaker WP:RS for cranks to verify lunacy - perfectblue 07:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"WP:RS must be subjective, strong WP:RS for science to verify science, weaker WP:RS for cranks to verify lunacy." If you plan to report the results of an experiment, WP:RS must be strong. There is no reason to weaken it for "lunacy." Antelan 19:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. Parapsychology is an important example partly because it is asserted to be scientific by its proponents despite the overwhelming rejection by the scientific establishment of its fundamental basis. The science of investigating that which is outside of science, if you will. It is also imnportant because recognition of the feld of endeavour in studying this appears to be asserted as a validation of the underlying principle, which of course it is not. Scientists can investigate ideas they discover to be false. But it is the case for many paranormal or supposedly paranormal phenomena that people will conduct scientific or pseudo-scientific investigations. Thus: paranormal theorists investigated the mysterious flattening of car batteries in Heathrow Airport's long-stay car-park through dowsing and concluded that the effect was due to ley lines. Engineers looked at it and decided it was more likely to be the fact that every time Concorde took off the alarms sounded. Although they did spot a lot of cars where the interior lights had been left on, presumably by people unloading their cars early in the morning. I understand just fine that parapsychology is not the paranormal, or vice-versa. Guy (Help!) 12:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between the proponent asserting themselves as being scientific and a wikipedia editor asserting that the proponent is scientific when quoting them. - perfectblue 07:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It was asked that ideas be allowed to be presented that are notable despite having little to no scientific support. Since that is the pseudoscience guidelines in a nutshell, I support this. We can dish out rhetoric all day on this issue, but it's just a rehashing of earlier ArbCom discussions.

--Nealparr 18:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

No one is arguing that genuinely notable unscientific views should not be included. Per the pseudoscience RfA that is not an excuse to present such claims uncritically. Regardless, the paranormal and pseudoscientific nature of such topics should be made clear or we by nature run afoul of NPOV's undue weight clause. JoshuaZ 23:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, in many cases critical presentation would violate WP:OR or WP:RS. Many notable topics do not receive quality critical evaluation from mainstream sources because mainstream scientists or journals don't want to be associated with them. Mostly you get unqualified debunkers or pure dismissal without critical appraisal. This is particularly true with UFO sightings involving the military or hauntings in modern buildings. Critics just dismiss. - perfectblue 08:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of sources

5) From Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources: Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Reputable sources for parapsychological paranormal topics might be exemplified by the Fortean Times. As a general principle, sources should provide critical review not adovcacy. Sources which do not permit of the attribution of a given document to an author whose credentials in the subject can be independently assessed, are not in general reliable sources, although they may be appropriate as further reading if their coverage is generally representative of coverage of the subject by its adherents.

Parapsychology subjects will, by their nature, attract the attention of cranks. Crank views may be discussed and documented provided they are documented on the basis of external assessments by reputable sources, and by attribution to identified notable proponents (see Time Cube, a pseudoscientific theory promoted by an individual almost universally identified as a crank). However, cranks and their publications generally do not constitute reliable sources except in respect of their own beliefs.

From Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Attribution, Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources, Misplaced Pages:Notability and Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, it follows that openly polemical sources, or sources which openly advocate the subject, should not be the sole sources for an article.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I miss the point of this long proposal. Coverage of subjects which have a popular following necessarily includes reference to manifestations of that following. Those manifestations should be appropriately identified, for example the movie White Noise is appropriately identified as fiction. Its website might be characterized as a website promoting a movie. Fred Bauder 15:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

"cranks and their publications generally do not constitute reliable sources except in respect of their own beliefs." If a crank is notable, then it is important that we demonstrate that demonstrate "their own beliefs". Third party sources should be included for the purpose of analysis (else, it's WP:OR), but the best way to understand a crank is to listen to their ravings. - perfectblue 14:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I reject the specific wording. Anyone who is the least bit familiar with parapsychology would not consider Fortean Times an example of a parapsychological source. Is the misunderstanding over parapsychology that great? Fortean Times is a commercial, pop, arguably paranormal magazine, based on the work of Charles Fort who dealt in the collection of stories about anomalies that appeared in the science journals of his time. The magazine doesn't try to be scientific at all. Parapsychology has actual peer-reviewed journals. The extent of the "peer-review" is by no means mainstream, but they are marginally peer-reviewed. With all due respect, I seriously have to question the basic knowledge of editors in relation to parapsychology based on this (seemingly simple) flub. The proposal is otherwise a good addition. Fortean Times would be a good source for anomalous and paranormal topics. It's not scientific, but it's a reliable source for notable beliefs and ideas labeled as such.

--Nealparr 19:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

up, sorry, brain-fart. In this case I did mean paranormal, not parapsychological. Feel free to cite a better example, too. Guy (Help!) 22:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I figured that's what you meant. As for examples of paranormal sources, there's a number of books. Paranormal magazines come and go. Fortean Times is probably the best of these since it's been around the longest.

--Nealparr 00:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Sorry it's wordy, but this is clearly a core issue as the issue of removal of asserted sources has been repeatedly raised. Guy (Help!) 12:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Bubba73 (talk), 04:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose insulting language, and crank is a pejorative word. Personally I don't think there is such thing as "crank". The word itself is used to suppress other people's opinions. Wooyi 19:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose The Fortean Times is not a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination, any notion that it would constitute a reliable source or that things like it would constitute reliable sources would require a complete gutting of WP:RS as it currently is written. JoshuaZ 23:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Why Fortean Times is not a reliable source? It even has its own article on Misplaced Pages. Wooyi 22:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I really hope you're joking. Simões (/_contribs) 23:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

^ cool linking --Nealparr 18:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I wasn't, the fact that it has an article is not the sole reason that it may be reliable, it's only a little additional fuel to the fire. The examples you cited has explicitly stated they are supermarket tabloids, while Fortean Times is pretty solid. There is a difference. Wooyi 23:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose Fortean Times is a reliable source of "what is currently of interest to paranormal enthusiasts". I wouldn't call it objective. - LuckyLouie 23:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly the point. It is a good source for what paranormal believers think. Guy (Help!) 11:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

True. However, to report experimental descriptions from it would require scrapping WP:RS. Antelan 20:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Fortean Times doesn't publish experimental results unless they are themselves sourcing some other entity. They're completely a commercial, forteana publication, as in not academic.

--Nealparr 23:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Antelan 01:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Fitness for inclusion

6) From Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Attribution, Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources, Misplaced Pages:Notability and Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, it follows that openly polemical sources, or sources which openly advocate the subject, should not be the sole sources for an article. If an article has no sources other than those which are polemical or advocate an esoteric subject, then it is unlikely that a neutral, sourced article can be written - see Aetherometry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and in particular Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Aetherometry (second nomination). In such cases the subject may be better discussed as part of a wider article which provudes proper context - or it may not be appropriate for inclusion at all.

Comment by Arbitrators:

The criteria for inclusion is notability. In this area if the subject is interesting and has media coverage it is properly included in Misplaced Pages. The only sources may be media coverage and sources which promote uncritical acceptance. If there is to be an article, those sources must be used, not to establish the truth of the underlying assertion, but to illustrate public interest and its nature. A brief note that there has been no serious scientific investigation is appropriate, despite there being no published source saying that. Fred Bauder 19:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Basically, you're saying that unless somebody contradicts a something, it has no value? A good editor can write an NPOV page using only POV sources, it's the intent of the editor that counts. POV sources are very useful for telling us "what claims were made", who made them, and why. - perfectblue 14:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I am saying that if an idea has no independent critical review and is discussed only by those promoting the idea, then it is difficult if not impossible to write a neutral article. Critical review does not mean that it is disputed or contradicted. Guy (Help!) 15:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this is relevant. I've yet to find any paranormal topic that didn't have at least some skeptical sources opposing it. James Randi is willing to pay out $1 Million dollars for proof of the paranormal, so he categorically opposes all paranormal phenomena. By default, he can be sourced.

--Nealparr 19:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Logical extension of above. Guy (Help!) 12:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Strong support as a principle, although I agree with Nealparr that its applicability to paranormal topics is unclear as these generally have sourceable critics. MastCell 15:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree Bubba73 (talk), 02:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Defining terms in wikipedia

7) Terms in wikipedia should be defined with a mainstream (majority) definition and be consistent with mainstream sources, as opposed to definitions found in sources presenting a minority point of view.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This is not acceptable as a general principle. There is good reason, for example, that we would define "energy" using a New Age definition, "spiritual energy", and have an article with that title. Fred Bauder 19:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. --Minderbinder 13:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Nicely put. Guy (Help!) 13:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Opposed, Many terms do not originate from the mainstream or are not used by the mainstream. Terms should be defined from the perspective of those who originally defined and those who use them so that their original purpose and intent can be fully portrayed. Defining a term any other way is pointless as it merely shows us "what the mainstream think of the term", not "what the term was coined to mean". - perfectblue 14:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand, I think. What Minderbinder is getting at is that many of these topics have a sort of kayfabe about them, an internal language whihc embodies assumptions which are not shared outside of the circle of believers. Consider how a Biblical inerrantist would describe the creation story, or any other element of Christian mythology, and compare that with how we actually cover it. Guy (Help!) 16:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Strongly support. In the past, neutral mainstream dictionary definitions have been rejected in favor of non-neutral paranormal/fringe definitions. - LuckyLouie 18:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Typically mainstream sources are pretty neutral and should be used over less neutral definitions. I would change it to say "when available".

--Nealparr 20:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This would be good--if and only if the principle would extend also to the kayfabe of scientists who have the erroneous minority idea that parapsychology is not science unless it is Verified by the scientific method. By application of any mainstream English dictionary, most science does not involve the scientific method. --Rednblu 06:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The "kayfabe of scientists" as you call it is what we call neutrality, at least in terms of the scientific validity of something. That something is not science unless subject to the scientific method is hardly controversial, nor is the idea that something rejected by the scientific establishment is not properly considered scientific. Indeed, the definition of pseudoscience is that which is asserted to be science but is not subject to the scientific method. Guy (Help!) 13:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

You must have that most rare of English dictionaries--the one that defines science as requiring the use of the scientific method! What is the title, publisher, and year of publication of this your most rare English dictionary? --Rednblu 15:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose initially I would support this, but changed mind in light of the concerns raised by perfectblue and Rednblu. Wooyi 19:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Terms in articles about specialized fields (e.g. law, medicine, or science) should be used as defined by reliable sources within those fields, not by general-purpose English dictionaries. Rednblu is being both tendentious and obtuse with this stuff about English dictionaries. 75.62.7.22 05:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree Bubba73 (talk), 02:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree to a large extent. Obviously this would not apply to legal or scientific terms that happen to also have other colloquial meanings. But there is no reason for example that we would define "energy" using some New Age defintion. In general, when a term has mainstream respected definition and and another less so, the less so one should be used or at minimum used as the primary defintion. JoshuaZ 23:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a good thing to bring up. Depending on the context, why wouldn't energy by defined by it's New Age usage? If you're talking about the belief in chakras, for example, and said that they are "energy vortices," you'd be correct in linking to Energy (spirituality) versus Energy (physics). We could say that energy means a potential for work, but if that definition doesn't match how the word is being used, it would be incorrect. Words often have a lot of different meanings and you have to treat them according to context.

--Nealparr 18:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. We should, where we can, determine the majority view of a topic, and define it according the majority view. But if we cannot determine whether a majority exists or not, we must define it in harmony with the definitions given by any professional organizations which deal with the field. However, if, say, 40 percent of people believe X, 30 percent don't know, and 30 percent disbelieve, then we should define it according to the greatest faction, while noting significant dissent. But just so you know: 3 our of 4 Americans believe in the paranormal. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 06:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

This has no basis in Misplaced Pages policy and is a bad idea as well. By many studies large fractions of people don't even know of the earth and the sun which revolves around which. And one gets similar results for many basic facts. The notion that we should somehow give special credence to lay viewpoints over experts and reliable sources simply fails. JoshuaZ 07:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly my point (I was being sarcastic, of course): why does Minderbinder want to go for a majority rather than an expert minority which actually knows what it is talking about? Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 01:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Defining topics of debated existence

8) When defining a topic that is only thought to exist by a minority, and existence is not accepted by the majority or mainstream, the definition should make clear the non-accepted nature of the topic and should not define the term in a way that sounds like existence of the topic is generally accepted. For example, "X is said by Y to be the ability to do Z" and not "X is the ability to do Y" when we don't have evidence that the ability in question is accepted as fact. In addition, phrases such as "is defined as" or "in the field of X" don't justify defining a debated topic as if it exists.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I have rephrased this below as appropriate handling of epistemological status, but accepted. Fred Bauder 20:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. --Minderbinder 13:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes, absolutely. I've had precisely this problem on Remote viewing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) forever - proponents resist strenuously any form of words in the lead which seeks to clarify that this is a supposed, claimed or purported ability. The latest version was to quote the Parapsychological Association's definition - but that violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight, since the PA almost certainly does not reflect the majority informed view of remote viewing (actually the majority informed view is to ignore it, but that is another problem, see above). Guy (Help!) 13:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Attributed statements make for better wording 99% of the time (neutrality prevents me from saying 100%). --Nealparr 20:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Partial Agree, "Said" is acceptable, "alleged", "purported", "supposed" and "so called" are not. We must also EXTREMELY CAREFUL to place "Said" in the right place. "Said" should describe the dispute over the outcome, not the definition. For example, the dispute about Telepathy about whether or not people can use it to read minds (if the power is real), not whether or not telepathy is a term used to describe people who can read minds (if the word is real). I've come across a couple of examples where skeptical users have placed the caveat in the wrong place, making it seem as if science disputes the word, not the claimed ability - perfectblue 08:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes science does dispute the word as in the case of Electronic voice phenomenon where there is a definite dispute that the thing being described is actually phenomenological. That's a dispute regarding wording, not a dispute over the outcome. --ScienceApologist 09:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Per the WP guideline WP:WTA, alleged and purported are appropriate if used correctly - they are used frequently by newspapers. You obviously don't like the word, but we follow WP guidelines, not your personal preferences. --Minderbinder 12:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree Bubba73 (talk), 02:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Support. - LuckyLouie 02:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

To do anything else would massively violate NPOV. JoshuaZ 23:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree per rationale of JoshuaZ. Antelan 20:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. For instance, since a majority believes in psychic phenomena, we would define a psychic as "a person who has the ability to do X." We would define "Miracle" as "A case of supernatural intervention" or some such. We would define God as "The supreme being, lord of heaven and earth." However, we would define Evolution as "A theory which some evolutionary scientists purport to explain the way in which physical bodies change by genetic mutation....." Yes, I think this is a wonderful idea...... It will make Misplaced Pages much more "mainstream."

Which of the following do you believe in?

God 64%

Premonitions/ESP 64%

Life after death 45%

Fortune telling/tarot 18%

A soul 67%

Deja-vu 66%

Heaven 54%

ut-of-body experience 31%

Astrology 38%

Reincarnation 24%

Ghosts 40%

Near-death experiences 51%

Telepathy 54%

Psychics/mediums 28%

Guardian angels 31%

Faith healers 32%

Dreams predict future 30% Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 06:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

For those who didn't get it, the above edit was sarcasm Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 02:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe so, but it's a worthwhile point: "The name God refers to the deity held by monotheists to be the supreme reality" (from God). So, the various psi topics should be described in similar terms; a concept asserted by believers despite (or sometimes in defiance of) lack of tangible proof. There has been some resistance to this. Guy (Help!) 12:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Which would be fine: I am being dragged before ArbCom partly for "POV-pushing" by defining parapsychologically-related terms according to the Parapsychological Association. According to the Parapsychological Association, a psychic is defined as.... This is then criticized as a fringe source. This happened with the Parapsychology article. I/we defined parapsychology as does the PA. Skeptics didn't like that. Then I found a totally mainstream source (Myrriam-Webster dicionary) which, like most mainstream sources, says something similar see this edit. But ScienceApologist didn't like that, because it doesn't cast enough doubt: Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 06:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you imagine the uproar if it read: "The name God refers to an alleged deity held by a minority of fringe monotheists to be a supposed supreme reality." That's the other side that some times is put in these articles. It might be correct, but it's not exactly neutral.

--Nealparr 16:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Most of these crackpot ideas do not garner support from billions of people over thousands of years. Remote Vuewing, for example - how many people believe in that - or have even heard of it? Guy (Help!) 07:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

RV is clairvoyance, which most people throughout history, I very much suspect, have believed in. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 02:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Weasel words

9) While weasel words should never be used to avoid attributing claims or information, there are situations where terms like "claimed", "alleged", "said (by X) to be", "purported" etc may be appropriate and even necessary. If a claim is being made and it is not generally accepted as fact, contrary to proven scientific laws or generally accepted principles, or otherwise extraordinary, such terms help express that a concept is one that is put forward by some and not one that is generally accepted. WP:WEASEL is not a reason to change a description of a concept only accepted by a minority from "X is the purported ability to Y" to "X is the ability to Y". These "qualifier" terms should only be used when there is genuine dispute and doubt about a concept.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Quite wordy, but yes Fred Bauder 19:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. --Minderbinder 13:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes. These are not actually weasel terms, in context, we are describing a belief system and ascribing it to its adherents. Guy (Help!) 13:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Alleged is a confrontational term. It should be avoided at all costs unless an "allegation" has been made. All too often it is used pejoratively and carries a strong implications of falsehood. Alternatives should be used. For example "Bob is an alleged psychic" would only be valid if a third party made an allegation. "Bob is a self professed psychic" is a far more neutral term if Bob says that he is psychic. - perfectblue 14:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

And yet some have objected to "self professed" and called it a weasel word, insisting on "Bob is a psychic". I have no objection to substituting another term for "alleged", the problem is insistence that all such terms are "weasel" and that no terms like that can be used. --Minderbinder 15:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but there are some problems where "Psychic" (or other terms) doesn't mean that somebody has "psychic powers", but is "psychic" essentially part of their job title. For example you can't have "Bob is a self-professed telephone psychic" or "Sue is a self-professed television-medium". It's their abilities that are disputed, not their job title. - perfectblue 16:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree that WP:WEASEL is not a reason to change a description of a concept only accepted by a minority from "X is the purported ability to Y" to "X is the ability to Y". In the past, this kind of abuse of WP:WEASEL has been strategically employed on many paranormal articles. LuckyLouie 17:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually in some cases "X is the ability to Y" is 100% correct because X is the official term. After all, it is the reality of the phenomona that is questionable, not the word used to describe it. I generally find that it is best to define the term but use "said" when speaking of the effect that it describes. For example "A with ability X is said to be able to.......". - perfectblue 16:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

See wikt:allege, wikt:assert, wikt:claim, wikt:believe. The problem is usually down to incorrect usage or lack of knowledge of the word's meaning rather than inherent inappropriateness of the term, in my view. ArbCom will not rule on specific usage, but may well rule on whether the use of such terms, in line with their correct meanings, is appropriate in the face of dislike of the term, which may be founded in a misapprehension as to its proper usage. Guy (Help!) 13:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Terms are sometimes needed so that the article doesn't imply things that haven't been established. In legal terms this would be "assuming facts not in evidence", without the qualifying words. Bubba73 (talk), 17:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a principle that has come up in the disputes, but I don't think ArbCom should rule on what words to use. I agree that facts not in evidence should not be presented as facts. There's many ways to do this, however, some of which are more neutral. It's a matter of prose style. Words like "alleged" can be replaced by less controversial wording. Instead of "Allison Dubois is a psychic" or "Allison Dubois is an alleged psychic" use "Allison Dubois believes she has psychic abilities ". This is completely a style issue seeking neutral wording that is non-confrontational.

--Nealparr 20:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree. To do otherwise invites begging the question (please read the article if you are unfamiliar with its technical, rather than colloquial, meaning). Antelan 20:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Weasel words (2)

9a) Weasel words should be avoided when possible, but there are occasions when it is appropriate to use them. Inclusion or exclusion of such wording and terminology should be justified if there is dispute.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Better, but not optimal Fred Bauder 19:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

As a less-wordy (and less word-specific) alternative to the above. --ScienceApologist 10:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

In light of the number of disputes about weasel words, I propose that we avoid them in perpetuity as a mutual peacekeeping measure. This includes avoiding words like purported in favor of words that have never been claimed to be weasel words. For example "X is purported to be ...." should be avoided in favor of "X is said to be ....", and we really need to avoid "alleged" unless we are referring to an actual "allegation" (forget grammar, peacekeeping is more important if progress is to be made). Houdini is the perfect example, we can say "Houdini was alleged to possess supernatural abilities" because Conan Doyle actually accused him of possessing them in "The Edge of the Unknown". however, nobody ever accused "Bob the telephone-psychic" of having psychic powers, so we really should avoid using that word with him in favor of "self professed" or "is said to possess" and similar. - perfectblue 16:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the wording of the proposition, especially "avoided when possible".

--Nealparr 18:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Weasel words (3)

9b) Weasel words should be avoided when possible. Where dispute exists, it is apprpriate to use terms which qualify and quantify the extent of the dispute. "Critics assert X" with citations to critics (plural) is factually accurate, not a weasel phrase.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Ok, but could be improved. Fred Bauder 19:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. --Nealparr 18:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Tweak of 9a. Guy (Help!) 13:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Needs refinement. "(Fringe Belief X) exists, but critics assert it doesn't" type definitions should be avoided. - LuckyLouie 02:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Critics are unlikely to assert the belief does not exist, even if they assert that it is utter twaddle. Guy (Help!) 16:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, in an example like Extra-sensory_perception, a term is defined as if it is an observable phenomenon, after which skeptics are minoritized. It creates the impression that ESP is accepted by all but a few unbelievers. - LuckyLouie 21:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ugh. I have had a go at fixing that. 62.73.137.190 08:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the reason these are called weasel words is because they seem lazy and come off as a way to shirk the responsibility of good prose just to get a point across. For example, in the Extra-sensory perception article, it says "ESP is the supposed ability to" blah blah blah. The word supposed is a lazy way of saying the better (and less weasely) "ESP refers to the idea that one can" blah blah blah. In the first example we're weasely saying there may be an ability and since we can't say the ability actually exists, we lazily throw in a "supposed". In the second example we're strongly saying there's an idea out there that one can perceive something through a sixth sense. We can say that strongly because factually the idea exists eventhough the abilities may not. When trying to avoid weaselness, we go with the stronger wording based on the one fact we do know.

--Nealparr 18:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not only is the second idea "stronger", it's also confusing. Personally, I think wording like "X is the idea that..."is more of a weasel cop-out. It's not much different than putting in "In parapsychology..." and claiming that is justification for following it with a statement that isn't agreed to be true. I'm certainly open to suggestions for better wording, but I don't think it's laziness, it's a genuine difficulty to get agreement on what is the most accurate and neutral - I'd love to hear a better wording that works, but I've yet to hear a solution that would make everyone happy. --Minderbinder 19:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a hot topic with strong opinions so it's definitely difficult to make everyone happy. But let me explain why it's different than "in parapsychology, X is...". First, ESP is a widely used term that has seeped into public vocabulary. It's a mainstream term, where its usage in parapsychology is extremely small by comparison. So that's the first problem. We shouldn't lead off with "in parapsychology, X is..." because that's its smallest usage. When a great deal of people use the term, who cares what it means in parapsychology? It'd be like saying "in construction, a hammer is...".

Now that we've got that out of the way, what is ESP? Well, it's perception that comes extrasensory. Is perception an ability? Not completely. According to the Misplaced Pages article, it's a process. We can't define ESP like that because the process may not exist. All we're left with is the idea that the process may exist, neutrally and factually speaking. I don't think it's weasel to approach it that way, as an idea, because that's really all it is when you strip away things not factual.

--Nealparr 19:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, more correctly, it's alleged perception from outside the senses. And you still haven't offered a wording that's an improvement over what's there. --Minderbinder 19:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't really want to get dragged into another article. I'm just talking about general principles and approaches. But let me give an example of how Extra-sensory perception could be worded (not there, but here). It's my opinion that we don't really have to define anything since this is an encyclopedia versus a dictionary. Plus the definition is in the term already. People already know what perception means, what sensory means, and what extra- implies. So let's get right into an encyclopedic approach that is factual and removes weasel words. I'd suggest (without actually getting involved):

"Extra-sensory perception (ESP) is related to the idea that human beings are capable of aquiring information through some unknown means beyond the normal senses. Although the idea contradicts accepted sensory models , it is widespread in popular culture. According to a recent Gallup poll, 41% of US respondents said that they believe in ESP ."

It could be expanded upon, but it's just meant to show an uncontroversial approach to the topic. This wording doesn't imply that ESP is real, not real, accepted, or rejected.

--Nealparr 21:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Peer reviewed sources

10) Peer review of a source is not a guarantee that information in an article and conclusions drawn are accurate. Even peer reviewed publications can make mistakes, and different publications have different standards so wikipedia editors may also consider other factors such as the reputation and credentials of the author and publication, other articles published, whether the article has been cited elsewhere, and whether any experiments have been reproduced by others. Misplaced Pages editors are not obligated to cite every peer-reviewed source on a topic or include mention of every experiment published in a peer reviewed publication and should use the guidelines at WP:RS, WP:N, WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE.

WP:FRINGE says: "While peer review is a necessary feature of reliable sources that discuss scientific, historical or other academic ideas, it is not sufficient. It is important that original hypotheses that have gone through peer review do not get presented in Misplaced Pages as representing scientific consensus or fact. Subjects that are sourced solely and entirely on the basis of singular primary sources (even when they are peer reviewed) may be excluded from Misplaced Pages on notability grounds."

Comment by Arbitrators:

I guess, but I don't see this in the decision. Fred Bauder 19:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. --Minderbinder 13:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Partially Supported 1) Peer-review must ALWAYS be taken as "proof of claim" even if it is not taken as "proof of truth" 2) Peer-review material should only be disputed IF a second source can be provided where a third party has disputed it (It is not the place of Misplaced Pages editors to dispute peer-review, only to show where dispute exists). - perfectblue 14:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Peer review is a very low level by itself. For example, there have been cases of peer reviewed claims solving P=NP, elementary proofs of Fermat's Last Theorem and many other results in mathematics. Piss-poor Peer review by itself in no way makes a claim at all relevant or notable. JoshuaZ 23:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure. The New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of Scientific Exploration are both "peer-reviewed" (and have approximately equal impact factors in terms of # of Misplaced Pages citations, sadly), but they are not equivalent as reliable sources. MastCell 16:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but they are used for very different purposes. NEJM is used to verify important things things as "truth in science", the JSE is used to verify things as "verifiable as claimed/believed". You don't need a world class peer-review journal verify that somebody said that they saw a UFO, or that they think that Bigfoot trod on their cat. You can get that from a supermarket tabloid. The source only needs to be as serious as the claim being made. Remember, Redflag covers "extraordinary claims", not "Absurd claims" - perfectblue 16:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I need clarification on this. If this is meant to consider mainstream journals over minority journals, sounds great. That's what Misplaced Pages is supposed to do anyway. If this is asking that parapsychology journals be excluded, I don't support that at all. I don't think that's in the spirit of WP:FRINGE, which was meant to get rid of really small ideas obscured by the general consensus. For example, the idea that human beings originated all over the world at once instead of out of Africa doesn't bare mention in an article about the origins of man. It's too small an idea. Likewise the idea that people can move objects with their mind is too small of an idea to be included in a physics article about motion. In an article dealing predominantly with parapsychology, parapsychological journals have a great deal of weight. Full critical analysis of the journals belong there too, but the journals shouldn't be excluded. In an article about psychokinesis, Jahn's work is very notable. The work should be mentioned, documented, and critiqued. That's accurate, neutral reporting. That's how Nature does it.

--Nealparr 22:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there's some need to clarify the existing policy, and perhaps close what some may see as a loophole that permits fringe journals to be cited as authoritative sources, especially when there is no contrasting view covered by mainstream journals. - LuckyLouie 16:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

NEJM has published some self-serving bullshit in the past and its peer reviewers have completely failed to pick up glaring errors. All journals are vulnerable to this, it is a form of confirmation bias. Guy (Help!) 16:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream/majority/minority

11) Misplaced Pages policies referring to "mainstream" or "majority" views mean the majority of all scientists and the overall scientific consensus, and not not the consensus of a small group that has studied an obscure topic. If a topic has not appeared in mainstream scientific publications, it can be assumed that it doesn't have mainstream scientific acceptance, and wikipedia articles shouldn't present the views only held by a small group and only presented in publications outside the mainstream with undue weight or as if they have overall scientific consensus. This particularly applies to fringe topics where claims made may contradict established and accepted scientific principles - an article can't follow undue weight if the primary (or only) perspective is "X experts" (insert Bigfoot, EVP, Time Cube etc for X).

Comment by Arbitrators:

Yes, mere indifference to fantastic claims should not be construed as acceptance. Fred Bauder 17:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. I don't think the "asking botanists about quarks" objection applies since those fields are regularly covered by mainstream scientific publications, and such fields generally don't make claims that completely contradict accepted principles. A clarification from ArbCom on this would go a long way towards clearing up this dispute, since so many edits are based on the interpretation that "majority" means "majority of the small group talking about a fringe topic". --Minderbinder 14:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Where something is fringe, the view of "the mainstream within said fringe" should always be represented in some form so as to demonstrate clearly "what those involved in the topic believe".

"If a topic has not appeared in mainstream scientific publications, it can be assumed that it doesn't have mainstream scientific acceptance" This is not the same as rejection, it also does not account for the fact that many mainstream journals simply will not publish anything on the paranormal/parapsychology because they class it as being outside of their scope of operation regardless of truth or validity. To turn things around, how many parapsychology journals ever print an article about the link between junk food and obesity? None, but this does not mean that they do not accept the link, only that they are not a health journal. - perfectblue 15:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Generalist publications will normally not publish papers on the paranormal or parapsychology. If there really is a scope issue that keeps parapsychology out, then it's the same issue that keeps cold fusion out. Simões (/_contribs) 18:48, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I would amend this to include "mainstream professional and technical bodies" and "current mainstream textbook understandings". In the case of "EVP" many fringe claims are made which are not shared or documented within mainstream academic or technical communities such as those devoted to electronics, audio, RF propagation, signal processing, and psychology. -- LuckyLouie 18:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree that on paranormal articles, the mainstream/majority view of science is against paranormal and this view should be presented as the mainstream/majority view in science. I also agree that sometimes paranormal articles aren't presented from that viewpoint and that this needs to be fixed. As a relevant sidenote, however, when talking strictly about majority views, it appears that the majority of people in general do have paranormal beliefs . In other words, the majority of people may have beliefs that aren't scientific. It's also possible that they aren't aware of this. This presents a bit of a problem in presenting articles in a way that fosters stability. Special care should be taken to elaborate on ideas that may be controversial or end up challenged. Instead of saying, for example, EVPs aren't scientific, spend a little time exploring why scientists think EVPs aren't scientific, providing background information through sourcing. Some things that might seem apparent or a given aren't, or at least aren't to everyone, and some explanation is required. In short, I don't think it's enough to present the scientific view of paranormal as a majority, the other view as minority, and call it a day. Because paranormal beliefs are so widespread, and the general populace probably doesn't think much about what is science and what is isn't, more discussion is needed in paranormal articles.

--Nealparr 23:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. But agree with Fred Bauder's comment. I oppose for several reasons. For one thing, all particular scientific fields are "fringe," because science is broad. We need a better definition of "fringe" if this is to be accepted. "Fringe" here is not defined as far as I know. However, skeptical editors would define it as "accepting anything paranormal," while others might define it as "having academic support," or some such. Please note that parapsychology has been covered in mainstream (generalist and specialist) scientific journals. As have other topics, such as alternative health. Parapsychology has been covered as science.

Thus, this proposal does not give good guidance for writing articles. It would be interpreted as a means to discount, as with other proposals, because "not accepted," is usually used to push the POV of "rejected."

And also, polls show that paranormal beliefs may very well be in the majority in the scientific community, especially in the physical sciences. It might just be that next year a Gallup poll reveals that most scientists believe in telepathy. Where would the skeptics be then?

In short, it's very difficult to know how this proposal would be used, and it might just cause a lot of fighting.

One problem is that skeptical editors define "mainstream" as "skeptical," disregarding such data as this:

A survey of more than 1,100 college professors in the United States found that 55% of natural scientists, 66% of social scientists (excluding psychologists), and 77% of academics in the arts, humanities, and education believed that ESP is either an established fact or a likely possibility. The comparable figure for psychologists was only 34%. Moreover, an equal number of psychologists declared ESP to be an impossibility, a view expressed by only 2% of all other respondents (Wagner; Monnet, 1979).

Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I don't think we even need to assume here, since we have quotes from decent journals detailing just how fringe some of this stuff is. One issue here would be ghosts. What do we do there? Belief in ghosts is plainly not intended to be based on scientific rationalism, and only oddballs and debunkers have conducted scientific research. Guy (Help!) 15:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

What happens in the cases when the debunker uses valid scientific methods? - perfectblue 16:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Generally, the bending-over-backwards accomodations provided by debunkers can be reported as amusing asides to articles, but they are not considered rigorous in the standards of mainstream research even by the debunkers themselves. The game is usually to beat the paranormal advocates at their own game: it's almost cruel sometimes. The amazing Randi's prize goes unclaimed because the people that are in a position to claim it are genuinely afraid of rigorous testing showing them to be charlatans. There are enough anecdotes of a successful debunking ending a psychic's career for these people to remain firmly distinct from the scientific method as much as possible. --ScienceApologist 00:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree Bubba73 (talk), 02:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Demarcation

12) It is not the role of Misplaced Pages to demarcate between science and pseudoscience.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No, it is the role of Misplaced Pages to inform its users regarding the epistemological status of subjects covered. There is a difference between a hoax and a well established fact. When the status is disputed the nature of the dispute should be set forth. Fred Bauder 18:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 13:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed.--Nealparr 15:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Wooyi 20:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

'Agreed: if skeptics wish to declare something as being a pseudoscience, they must find a representative mainstream source stating this clearly and unambiguously. FYI, Skeptics Dictionary cannot be counted as such a source as the writer is not sufficiently qualified to comment. -perfectblue 09:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Parity of sources must come into play here. The Skeptics Dictionary is a perfectly reliable source for inclusion in any of the subjects it discusses because the corresponding advocate-sources suffer from the same or worse qualification issues. To wit, there is no vetting process in paranormal studies for who is and isn't reliable. That is not the fault of the authors of the Skeptic's Dictionary and so this source will continue to be used despite the protestations of those who dislike it. --ScienceApologist 09:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Carrol only partially cites and attribute, and he typically has not profesional experience in the fields that he writes about. He's basically a journalist, not an expert. If he were arguing the other side, I doubt that you would accept him. As I've said before, don't cite Carrol, find out who his sources are and cite them instead. - perfectblue 16:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I would love to see a dictionary of the paranormal written from a sympathetic point of view. Have you seen one? --ScienceApologist 17:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Does this dictionary count? Wooyi 19:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, per Perfectblue above. Carroll is not a peer-reviewed source, states his intrinsic bias, and is not an expert in his subjects. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Huh???? Makes no sense; clarification is needed. 75.62.7.22 06:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Expanded request for clarification: Does this proposal include either getting rid of Portal:Science (which is linked from the very top of the main page along with a few other top-level portals), or alternatively requiring the science portal to include topics like parapsychology and baraminology? Today's selected article at Portal:Science is enzyme kinetics. Should Misplaced Pages refrain from labelling enzyme kinetics as a scientific topic? 75.62.7.22 04:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Demarcation is different from categorization. --ScienceApologist 22:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd appreciate an explanation of the difference. 75.62.7.22 18:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categorization explains what categorization does while the demarcation problem explains the epistemological issues that are beyond the scope of Misplaced Pages to resolve. --ScienceApologist 18:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Carroll is an excellent example of how a source can be reliable and not peer reviewed. The Skeptic's Dictionary is a systematic, large-scale work which has gotten highly positive reviews in the popular press and elsewhere. At minimum, Carroll's work should be given more weight than claims by various proponents of the paranormal and pseudoscience who have not gotten the same level of acclaim and respect by the mainstream media. I'm also concerned that a statement that Misplaced Pages is not in the business of demarcation would remove all meaning to the pseudoscience RfA since we will be incapable of deciding what is pseudoscience. If we have multiple reliable sources or experts in the relevant field that call something pseudoscience or call it by a similar term (such as "quackery"), Misplaced Pages is more than welcome in calling the topic pseudoscience and behaving appropriately. JoshuaZ 23:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

That would be the sources or experts in the relevant field that are in the business of demarcation, not Misplaced Pages itself. Misplaced Pages only knows what is sourced. If sourced, it's the source making the claim, not Misplaced Pages itself. The RfA on pseudoscience didn't demarcate science. It stated what would be neutral positions. Everything that is likely to be challenged on Misplaced Pages needs a source. According to the RfA, the only pseudoscience category that doesn't require any sourcing is obvious pseudoscience, like the Time Cube, which "may be so labeled and categorized as such without more." The rest of the categories don't say that. Misplaced Pages doesn't define science, science does that and it gets sourced here.

--Nealparr 04:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

JoshuaZ says, "Carroll is an excellent example of how a source can be reliable and not peer reviewed". Carroll openly acknowledges that The Skeptic's Dictionary "does not try to present a balanced account of occult subjects", and anyone with an in-depth knowledge of any of those subjects will notice this almost immediately. The typical entry in that book/website involves a parody explanation, the downplaying or ignoring of the best evidence, and the proposing of a mundane explanation for some of the worst examples of a phenomenon which it is then implied (or stated) is able to account for all examples of the phenomenon. Many editors here may like Carroll's book because it panders to their preconceptions in the same way that true believers in paranormal phenomena like unquestioning pro-paranormal literature, but it suffers from similar problems and is, from a genuinely sceptical perspective, a shoddy piece of work.Davkal 10:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Carroll makes it clear that his book is for "open-minded seeksers", "soft skeptics", "hard skeptics", andthe "beleiving doubter"; and that it is not for "true believers in the occult". "If you have no skepticism in you, this book is not for you." Bubba73 (talk), 18:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Categorization

12a) Categorization occurs via the principle of least astonishment. Categorization does not imply that there is universal agreement that the article is necessarily described by unanimous consent as belonging to the category.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No, categorization is an aid to the reader helping them find more information on related topics.

Comment by parties:

Proposed as an addendum (or perhaps alternative) to the above. --ScienceApologist 00:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Applying the principle of least astonishment is a way to choose one option from an array of options, whichever is least astonishing wins out. Misplaced Pages allows articles to be placed in several categories, so there's no reason to choose which is most appropriate. Categorization occurs via relation to the topic. As long as the relationship is shown through the body of the article (with appropriate sourcing for controversial claims), a number of categories can be assigned to the article (as they often are).

--Nealparr 04:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see the rules on this, as categorization has been normally used to label a subject, rather than to help the reader. If it were used as Bauder says, it would be fine, but it isn't. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Heh! I like. Yes, this is good. Guy (Help!) 16:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Reporting controversy

13) As in the case of parapsychology, when there is attributable controversy over the status of an idea, it is the responsibility of a reliable encyclopedia to accurately and neutrally report the controversy.

Comment by Arbitrators:

When scientists are silent regarding a matter, controversy should be assumed. Fred Bauder 18:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 13:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed.--Nealparr 16:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. -- Wooyi 21:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is WP:NPOV writ small. 62.73.137.190 08:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Labeling pseudoscience

14) Categorizing or labeling a controversial idea "pseudoscience" or including an idea in List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts does not necessarily represent a violation of neutrality. As long as attribution to reliable sources are used, such actions are not problematic.

Comment by Arbitrators:

It is only necessary that a matter be presented as scientific fact without supporting scientific investigation for it to be characterized as pseudoscience. Fred Bauder 18:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 13:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to agree to this as written. The first part, the labeling along with attributable sources matching the statement, I'd agree with that. That's pretty much my entire position here. Still, I don't fully support the second part about the list. I don't feel strongly enough to actually dispute the list, but I'm not entirely convinced that it isn't WP:Content forking and that it meets WP:NPOV. My personal opinion is that presenting a list and saying, well it's just a list, is a clever way of circumventing discussion that leads to neutrality. I'd agree that it doesn't "necessarily represent a violation of neutrality", but I wouldn't go so far as to say "such actions are not problematic".

--Nealparr 16:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. This is in line with the arbitration decision on pseudoscience. Simões (/_contribs) 06:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support: Just so long as Robert Carrol (skeptics dictionary) is blacklisted, and sources are restricted to people who are qualified in a related field (EG, no botanists discussing faster than light travel and no accountants discussing crop circles). - perfectblue 09:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support: - LuckyLouie 19:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Support-Wikidudeman 22:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Wrong. This is wrong. This is wrong because this whole concept that "labeling some concept as pseudoscience does not violate neutrality" is counter to the consensus of editors on Misplaced Pages. I challenge you to put this notion up for vote by the whole Misplaced Pages community as a whole. This bigoted notion of "labeling concepts you dislike as pseudoscience" lays hostage to a wide range of Misplaced Pages pages and is held in place only by honorable gang mechanics and wrongful suits such as this one. What is missing here is some policy understanding, a true consensus, among editors of what Verification we expect ReliableSources to have done for us. Just because becoming the biggest winner of the PGA Tour cannot be done by the scientific method does not make it pseudoscience; it just has a different standard of Verification. --Rednblu 22:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought that in order to be pseudoscience, the subject had to be unscientific (i.e. not recognized as science by consensus of the mainstream scientific community) but presented as science. The PGA tour isn't presented as a scientific subject so it isn't pseudoscience. 75.62.7.22 06:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

That's correct 75. Rednblu has staked out a relativistic stance that is so ironically dogmatic that he has rejected any notion of editorial judgement ever being possible. In other words, Rednblu does not trust editors to be able to judge reliability or verifiability, even though in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience the arbitration committee voted and passed on resolutions regarding the labeling of pseudoscience per these principles. In absense of a belief in any evidence of confirmation or rejection being ascertainable, Rednblu consistently advocated that the only consensus that counts is the one that agree with him. --ScienceApologist 09:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations for the perfect non sequitur. Here is the falsifiable hypothesis: If you give the whole Misplaced Pages community the vote, in a straw poll of more than 400 votes from random Misplaced Pages editors, more than 50% of the Misplaced Pages editors voting would Oppose with various rationales your proposal above as stated. --Rednblu 10:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfalsifiable because neither you nor I have the ability to attract 400 votes to a straw poll. --ScienceApologist 17:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree Bubba73 (talk), 02:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages cares about verifiability, not truth. If something is described as pseudoscience in reliable sources there is nothing wrong with including it on a list of that topic. Spades should be called spades in general and certainly when we have reliable sources that call them spades. JoshuaZ 00:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course. In what way can it be wrong to label something as it is generally labelled? We already have identical or strongly similar principles in other arbitration cases. Guy (Help!) 16:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Categorization, when accurate, is helpful and important. Antelan 20:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing and attribution

15) Per Misplaced Pages's frings theory guidelines, in controversial articles care needs to be taken to accurately attribute text to reliable sources. With minority or fringe theories, this may mean looking for independent review and third-party evaluation of the subject rather than relying on promoters of the idea as the major source.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No, if a matter has captured the public imagination to a notable degree the representations of those who created or disseminated the information which captured the public's attention should be set forth, not as fact but as an explanation. Third party observations regarding the matter are also useful. Silence of the scientific community should always be noted. Fred Bauder 18:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Perhaps most important. --ScienceApologist 13:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

What is reliable for discussing the paranormal? Does somebody who spent their entire career in the mainstream have the necessary experience to discuss "things that go bump in the night", are they more or less reliable than somebody with an unaccredited degree in parapsychology who spent 20 years investigating so-called haunted houses? The reliability required of the source must be determined by the claim being made. It can't simply be arbitrary. - perfectblue 16:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I think for any topic on Misplaced Pages independent review and third-party evaluation should be sought out.

--Nealparr 17:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support. MastCell 15:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree Bubba73 (talk), 02:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Support. - LuckyLouie 02:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. This is used to remove and censor valid and reliable primary sources. J. D. Redding 18:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's standards and principles are absolute, not relative

16) Misplaced Pages's standards for sources should not be lowered when dealing with a subject whose proponents may have lower standards. A source does not meet standards for reliability simply because all other relevant sources are less reliable. A source should not be described as "peer-reviewed scientific research" if those performing the review are members of a community which does not follow scientific principles such as scepticism, impartial assessment of empirical evidence, methodological naturalism, and logical reasoning. The principle that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary verification" applies equally well in a field where most, or even all, claims may be extraordinary.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Misplaced Pages's standards and principles are relative, not absolute is a true statement. Fred Bauder 14:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed SheffieldSteel 15:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Withdrawn in favour of proposal 28, which I believe to be clearer and less prone to abuse. SheffieldSteel 03:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

If this is meant to prevent the mischaracterization of sources as peer-reviewed or accepted by mainstream science, I agree. If this is meant to exclude parapsychological journals in all cases as unreliable, I completely disagree. The journals should be considered reliable in supporting a claim that such research was actually conducted, so that accurate reporting of the controversy and criticisms over such work can be sufficiently made. In the parapsychology article, it should be mentioned that they publish a journal, for example. In an article on psychokinesis it should say research was conducted by Jahn at Princeton. Then the criticisms and disclaimers and such should be included as well. Otherwise, there's a gap in information that doesn't exist in the most skeptical publications. This can all be done without presenting the sources as accepted by science. The standards are somewhat relative to the statement the source is supporting.

--Nealparr 17:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This finding is, by its nature, not going to be flexible. If you do not want it to be used in certain specific situations, then you should oppose its use in any and all situations. SheffieldSteel 22:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Per SheffieldSteel's characterization that it is inflexible. Very few things on Misplaced Pages are, or should be, inflexible. I want to agree with it, but I'm afraid that it will be abused by some editor down the road wanting to exclude something he doesn't like. Even WP:RS doesn't make absolute statements on quality of sources, instead agreeing that sources should match the claim. Even this proposal suggests the relativity of sources in dealing with extraordinary claims. It says relative to the claim, the source must be extraordinary as well. Those parts I agree with, but not the spirit of the principle.

--Nealparr 23:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Disagree strongly: WP:RS is a sliding scale - the standard of proof must match the issue at hand. "Extraordinary" claims require extraordinary proof, "Absurd" or "trivial" claims do not. For example, scientific peer-review may be required to prove the existence of extra terrestrials, but it is complete and utter overkill to demand it to verify the existence of an individual's "claim" of alien abduction. In local newspaper interview with the alleged abductee should suffice. - perfectblue 08:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an outright contradiction. How does one demarcate between the extraordinary and the absurd? Are we simply supposed to take your word for it? --ScienceApologist 09:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Disagree Misplaced Pages rules as letters are indeed not 100% absolute, that's why we have WP:IAR and we generally need look into the spirit of the rules, not letters. A textualist approach to Misplaced Pages rules would only encourage Wikilaywering. Wooyi 21:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a mainstream encyclopedia

17)As elucidated by the Neutral point-of-view section on undue weight, Misplaced Pages gives preference to majority (mainstream) descriptions of subjects. NPOV is not the same thing as "sympathetic point of view".

Comment by Arbitrators:

A matter may not be worthy of mainstream comment. In such cases what is notable is that an assertion has traction in popular culture. Thus the assertion must constitute the bulk of the article. All that can be said of the mainstream opinion is that the assertion has not been evaluated. Fred Bauder 18:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 09:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Often this is untenable and will merely lead to relevant material being excluded. For example, in the case of a famous haunting the mainstream view might equate to a single footnote in an obscure textbook that simply says "Ghosts are bunk, so is this haunting", whereas the so-called fringe view might consist of dozens of books, documentaries and a walking tour three nights a week by the winner of "survivor XXXIIXI". In cases such as this the mainstream is in a distinct minority and therefore weight judged accordingly. Give weight to the mainstream when it comes to scientific conclusions, but not when it comes to pop culture, belief, myth and legend or popular belief in the face of science. - perfectblue 17:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream is never in the minority by definition. Just because something is ignored does not make it majority. This is why we have notability standards. --ScienceApologist 18:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I actually think this is the locus of the dispute. These articles attract editors who already have a strong opinion. They edit from those strong opinions that aren't neutral at all. Example (no offense SA):

"Mainstream is never in the minority by definition. Just because something is ignored does not make it majority. This is why we have notability standards."

You are only defining mainstream itself as mainstream science. Thankfully, Misplaced Pages makes no such claims on it's own. It's entirely a sliding scale. In mainstream culture, for example, the majority of people have paranormal beliefs. A greater majority have religious beliefs. Mainstream as a broad term doesn't ignore the paranormal. Mainstream science does.

To the proposition itself, I agree. To SA's interpretation of mainstream, I completely disagree.

--Nealparr 18:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read Misplaced Pages's article on mainstream. --ScienceApologist 17:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Um, Misplaced Pages's article on mainstream actually says what I said. In fact, other than the disambig header mentioning social sciences (soft sciences), and one reference to science fiction, it doesn't actually say anything about science. If we're going off that article, we're supposed to present topics according to the majority of pop culture. I've got plenty of Gallup polls, etc. that show the majority of pop culture have paranormal beliefs.

--Nealparr 20:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the issue here is that there is a majority opinion about physical reality which is deferentially made by the scientific community. The scientific may be a minority in the world, but they are the majority when it comes to describing the natural world. --ScienceApologist 22:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd almost agree with that, but apparently the actual majority either doesn't care what science has to say about paranormal topics, or aren't aware of it. That view should be presented as well. All notable views should be presented neutrally, including science, but not exclusively science. Even in science, 2/3 of scientists in general believe in a God, which is obviously not a scientific belief. All that's content issues, though. I'm simply pointing out that as a mainstream encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages needs to cover other views besides science as well. Sometimes (like in religious articles), science is on the back burner. Sometimes (like in physics articles), science is on the front burner.

--Nealparr 23:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would object to discussing misconceptions or ignorance of the general population regarding the scientific view on paranormal topics. In fact, this is part of the reason I contribute to Misplaced Pages. That scientists have beliefs that are not scientific is hardly the issue here. That there are people who make bold claims about physical reality which are not verifiably accurate is also not the issue. However, when reporting that people are making bold, unverifiable statements about physical reality that contradict science, these people are not on equal footing with the consensus on physical reality as delineated by science. That's the essense of guidelines and policies such as WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE. --ScienceApologist 23:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I'm just pointing out that there's no single mainstream, per your link to the mainstream article. I'd like to see some clarification myself. WP:WEIGHT doesn't deal with science, it deals with an idea's position within a (non-elaborated on) mainstream. If there's actually several hierarchical mainstreams culminating in one grand mainstream -- pop culture -- there is a real question of how weighty science actually is in some articles. WP:FRINGE likewise deals with an idea's position, but only within the mainstream of science (a lower tier on the ladder from pop culture). Bare in mind, I didn't bring it up. And I don't make edits from this viewpoint. It does have a lot to do with this ArbCom however.

--Nealparr 18:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with Fred Bauder. What a huge ammount of effort I've put into trying to get things to follow the letter and spirit of his comment! Especially in the EVP article. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 21:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Referencing credentials

18)Credentials, when used to confer reliability on a reference, must themselves by referenced by reliable third-parties who have the independence, expertise, and affiliations necessary to be able to verify the credentials.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Of course, it is information like any other. Fred Bauder 18:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

For example, using a psychology professor (and paranormal promoter) unaffiliated with NASA as a source for the credentials of a claimed NASA contractor who is also a paranormal promoter is not an acceptable practice. --ScienceApologist 10:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Also note that WP:BLP says "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space." --Minderbinder 13:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree with this. -- LuckyLouie 17:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Another sliding scale. There's a difference between "X is a former NASA person" (as this was probably worded), and "X claims to be a former NASA person". For the second statement it should be enough that a source is found that shows he actually made that claim. If there's some criticism over whether he actually was an NASA person, that can be documented too, but to just leave it out that the guy claimed he worked for NASA is a gap in information. It also doesn't seem justified without a source that someone did dispute that he worked for NASA. We're not trying to debunk sources here. If sources have been debunked, we report on the debunking. Ideally, it should read something like:

"Bob claims he worked for NASA . . Concerns over whether Bob actually worked for NASA were raised by Joe . Joe claims Bob was really working at a gas station in Philadelphia at the time he was supposedly working at NASA."

Guidelines and policies aren't broken. Editors just aren't taking the time to achieve neutrality. People are just deleting things left and right, inserting controversial material, very few times are editors taking the time to remove controversy by wording.

--Nealparr 18:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Note that a key qualifier is: Credentials, when used to confer reliability on a reference. If we write that Mr. X says he has conducted an experiment which conclusively confirms voice communications from otherdimensional entities (an extraordinary claim), both his claim and any claimed credentials which are employed to support his claim (speech recognition expert, NASA researcher, etc.) are subject to extreme scrutiny, per WP:REDFLAG. - LuckyLouie 19:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It's interesting that the only person that we know of so far who has had their credentials artificially raised (misrepresented) was (pseudo)sceptic David Federlein who was described by Robert Carroll in Skepdic as a sound engineer, and in the EVP article as a "professional sound engineer" when he turns out to be an unsigned musician whose only sound engineer experience was a non academically recognized course in using mixing equipment.

This whole proposal seems to be aimed at making it next to impossible to cite anyone's credentials if that person is in any way in favour of, associated with, anything even remotely paranormal. As such it is adding the notion of "extraordinary claims" to every aspect of anyone's life who dares to support, or be interested in the paranormal. Given that surveys have shown that significant percentages of US college professors believe in various paranormal phenomena it is clearly not extraordinary that some of them might say something positive about it on occasion. That the facts do not tally with some editors prejudices about who believes in the paranormal (for example, one of ScienceApologist's sockpuppets claimed that all members of/peer-reviewers for the SPR were "untrained buffoons"), is a very good reason for not adopting a policy designed to pander to those prejudices.Davkal 10:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"he turns out to be an unsigned musician whose only sound engineer experience was a non academically recognized course in using mixing equipment" What's your source for this claim? In addition, per WP:BLP, what is your source for him being a "pseudoskeptic"? --Minderbinder 12:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Strong objection on grounds of Bad Faith: While I agree that qualifications should be cited, it is my personal belief that this will be abused by bad faith editors. When an individual is exclusively involved with the paranormal their credentials will be exclusively cited by people writing about the paranormal (Skeptical writers often mis out details like degrees in physics or X years in Engineering etc). The above statement will be abused to disallow said sources in order to falsely render credible and experience individuals non-WP:RS.

Counter Proposal: When we have a non-skeptical source, we Agf unless there is proof otherwise, or at least contradictory evidence. Especially with non-redflag claims like having worked for NASA. NASA is 50 years old and is one of the US's largest employers, and largest users of outsourcing. Half of the quality tech research and development groups in Silicon valley must have a couple of ex Nasa guys in them. - perfectblue 08:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is a bit specific, the case cited is the only one I can think of which falls under this, but it is nonetheless true. More generically, partisan sources should be treated with caution and information in partisan sources should only be included if corroborated elsewhere or uncontroversial. Controversial material from third-party partisan sources which lacks independent corroboration should be excluded on principle. Guy (Help!) 16:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Initial proposal can used to remove and censor valid primary sources, which would be a tool for the suppression of intellectual dissent. The 'Counter Proposal' is much more reasonable. J. D. Redding 19:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Partisan references

18a) Controversial material from partisan sources which lacks independent corroboration should be excluded on principle. Including uncorroborated controversial claims by partisan sources in respect of living individuals is a violation of Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons. More generally, partisan sources should be treated with caution and information from such sources should generally only be included if corroborated elsewhere.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Partisan source are not reliable resources. Fred Bauder 18:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree,. but as noted above in the case of what might be termed "notable bollocks" there are only partisan sources. Guy (Help!) 12:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Partisan source, it could be argued, are the only sources. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. --Nealparr 04:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - "Partisan" could be construed as anyone from Dean Radin to James Randi to the US Surgeon General. Can of worms. Don't open it. - LuckyLouie 05:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

See WP:NPOV. Guy (Help!) 22:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Per LuckyLouie. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed as a less confrontational and more generic version of 18 above. Guy (Help!) 16:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose can used to remove and censor valid primary sources. J. D. Redding 19:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Per LuckyLouie. Wooyi 14:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion is not advocacy

19) Editors must accept that "inclusion of a claim" is entirely separate from "advocacy of a claim". For example, the inclusion of a material in which an individual claims to have Psi abilities is not advocacy of the claim as being true. Equally, inclusion of a source stating that the individual has Psi powers is merely verification that the claim was made, not validation of the truth behind the claim.

Comment by Arbitrators:

True enough Fred Bauder 18:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed - perfectblue 09:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree up to a point. The problem is when certain editors due the following:

Certain individual has Psi abilities

and then the reference is to the certain individual's claim of psi abilities. This is far different from

Certain individual has declared that (s)he possesses Psi abilities

which is totally uncontroversial. There is a difference between asserting the fact of a claim and asserting that a claim was made.

ScienceApologist 09:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Agree with SA as well. --Nealparr 18:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Wooyi 21:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Unnecessarily aggressive wording, but reasonable nonetheless. I think we've already said this above, though, in that a controversial or fringe belief which is generally disputed may be documented in terms of its espousal by notable proponents. It's the same deal, really. Guy (Help!) 16:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Consensus

20) Misplaced Pages works by consensus.

Comment by Arbitrators:

As stated it is not true. Misplaced Pages has certain fundamental policies which users are expected to conform to, Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Discussion within that framework, ideally leading to consensus is encouraged, but cannot overrule fundamental policy. Fred Bauder 18:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Seems obvious, but we've seen much unilateral editing in opposition to consensus on these articles. --Minderbinder 15:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. This would be a silly proposal were it not for some paranormal advocates' blunt, explicitly-state opposition to working by consensus. Simões (/_contribs) 18:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --Nealparr 18:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. -- LuckyLouie 19:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

At what point, if any, can a consensus turn a source which says "P" into a source which says "not-P"? It cannot do this no matter how big the consensus. And, given that it cannot, what should one do when a consensus tries to do exactly that? Davkal 17:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Where has that happened? --Minderbinder 17:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

here for example.Davkal 17:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

At that example, the source (the subject of the article himself) said "Well, I was expecting to get a continuation contract. Every six months you'd get a new contract. Then one day I got a separation contract." My edit was "his contract wasn't renewed". Are you seriously going to claim that those two are saying different things? I'll also note that Radin himself had been revert warring on the article and complaining on the talk page, but when I made that edit he didn't change it or voice any objection to it. --Minderbinder 18:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

That's only part of what it says as you well know. It goes on to say that when Radin pointed out they couldn't do that they "changed their tune" and renewed his contract and then after further difficulties Radin decided to leave. That you still try to misrepresent the source here and now demonstrates a fundamental lack of integrity. And integrity is something that is certainly needed if consensus is to mean anything more than simply a gang-editors' charter.Davkal 18:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Please quote me the part where that source says they renewed his contract. Or are you misrepresenting the source? --Minderbinder 18:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Misplaced Pages works by consensus in most things, and in most things consensus should be accepted. But certain basics, such as NPOV, RS, and ATT, do not require consensus. The word "consensus" can mean either full agreement to a course of action, or it can mean "supermajority." If the latter, then a group of, say, Astrologers, could come to "consensus" that Astrology is truth and there is no need for opposing views. The lone skeptic would then be "going against consensus" when trying to introduce NPOV. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Oppose. NPOV and objectivity should be strived for. A consensus reality should be avoided. Truth from a consensus reality may be at odds with facts. Though reasonable or rational positions should be sought, unilateral editing (at time, en masse) in opposition to a NPOV and in opposition to the inclusion of objective facts should be avoided. J. D. Redding 19:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

21) Misplaced Pages's definiton of disruptive editing includes editing that:

• Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from one or more other editors.
• Rejects community input: resists moderation and/or requests for comment, continuing to edit in pursuit of a certain point despite an opposing consensus from impartial editors and/or administrators.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Usually this is expressed as aggressive biased editing may be considered disruptive. Fred Bauder 18:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. --Minderbinder 15:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not going to offer evidence, but I'd point out a great deal of editors on both sides are disruptive according to the above.

--Nealparr 18:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - LuckyLouie 19:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed but this principle should be applied to both sides in this dispute, not just a particular side. Wooyi 21:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agree, but it's not going to help. You can see fromt he comments here that some people apparently consider asserting the m,ainstream view to be disruptive. 62.73.137.190 08:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. I've been a "disruptive editor" in persuit of NPOV and WP:ATT, but this is not disruptive editing, because it is in persuit of policies which do not require consensus. I agree with Bauder's comment. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Assume good faith

22) Assumption of good faith is a guideline and founding principle of Misplaced Pages, and assumption of bad faith because of disagreement or different viewpoints is bad practice.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I think this is a good principle for this case. Some people want this information out on the table and others want it made plain that most of it is not scientifically verified. Fred Bauder 18:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

This appears to be a reiteration of WP:AGF. I don't see the point of this proposal. Simões (/_contribs) 23:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It probably is a reiteration, but so is things like Misplaced Pages works by consensus (above). I think it's just pointing out that AGF is an issue.

--Nealparr 04:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Wooyi 20:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Ironically this principle was violated by User:Wooyi in this very arbitration process itself. --ScienceApologist 22:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Eh, currently I don't think I assumed bad baith out of anyone. I've reiterated many times that I understand you meant well, in accordance with AGF, and I have proposed lenient caution for you instead of any punitive or retaliative measure. In this arbitration my intention is only to get both sides fair treatment and not favoring one side against another. Wooyi 21:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Claiming that I made problematic edits that were not problematic looks like assuming bad faith to me. --ScienceApologist 22:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Advocacy

23) Editors who welcome new users are likely to be seen as representatives of Misplaced Pages. Their welcomes should thus be friendly, helpful, and reflect the priorities of the encyclopedia. Welcome messages are also an exception to the community's general dislike of internal "spamming". Since new users are as yet unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's functioning, such welcomes should not be used as a vehicle for advocacy of any kind. (from previous arbcom case here)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Such welcome messages are a variety of forestalling and should be strongly discouraged. Fred Bauder 18:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Martinphi takes issue with this principle, so I think it is worth reiterating. --Minderbinder 22:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree with proposal without agreeing that anyone is guilty of inappropriate advocacy (not getting involved in editor conduct disputes).

--Nealparr 04:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but with the reservation in the light of the concern Nealparr expressed. Wooyi 19:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. But let it be noted that in the case that anything I did could be considered "advocacy," I was not aware of breaking any rules at the time. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support as a general principle. LuckyLouie 03:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

"Pseudoskeptics"

24) "Pseudoskeptic" is a pejorative term and per WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL shouldn't be used to describe other editors or people mentioned in articles (unless it's a quote cited to a source). --Minderbinder 22:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Essentially, use of that label implies bad faith. Fred Bauder 18:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Support. I don't think this one needs an argument, so I'll leave it at that. Simões (/_contribs) 23:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support - LuckyLouie 03:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. --Nealparr 04:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Disagree: It is the most appropriate term. Other terms such as "fake skeptic" or "false skeptic" etc imply that the person's skepticism is false (that they are a believer pretending to be a skeptic). The only other alternative is "true-skeptic" - perfectblue 17:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it ad hominem to accuse another editor of this? And isn't it inappropriate to make this accusation of article subjects without attributing it to a source, per WP:BLP? --Minderbinder 20:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. It is a fact that "pseudoskeptics" is pejoritive, but it is similar to the word "pseudoscience" in that it is in some cases the only word which describes certain modes of behavior. It is like saying that an editor is "disruptive": pejoritive, but falling under the category of "calling a spade a spade." Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Saying an editor is disruptive is an appeal to Misplaced Pages policy. "Pseudoskeptic" is just an insult hurled at other editors during content disputes. Of all things, you really shouldn't be defending Davkal on this one. Simões (/_contribs) 03:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I see what you're saying here, but the fact is that "pseudoskeptic," while pejorative in a sense, also has a specific definition. It is not a characterization, but an assertion of fact. A pseudoskeptic is someone who, instead of questioning the evidence, asserts unproven claims that a subject has no merit. Truzzi (about 20 years ago I think) gave the word a very specific factual definition. This proposal would be good if "pseudoskeptic" didn't have a specific factual definition. Truzzi said:

"Since "skepticism" properly refers to doubt rather than denial — nonbelief rather than belief — critics who take the negative rather than an agnostic position but still call themselves "skeptics" are actually pseudo-skeptics." Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 21:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

All of these terms are insults, both pseudoscience and pseudoskeptical. Donkey turd has a specific definition, but when you call someone a donkey turd it's meant to be degrading, the same as pseudo- (or not real) anything. There's more diplomatic ways of saying the exact same thing. When one uses these terms they are intentionally framing the position as something false or incorrect. It is a characterization of the position or person who holds that position.

--Nealparr 22:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No one here is really a donkey turd, but there are pseudoskeptics here. I'll trade them pseudoskeptic for pseudoscientist the category pseudoscience, paranormalist, baboons etc. any day. However, when you say someone is a pseudoskeptic you are saying in the context of Misplaced Pages that they are making assertions they can't support with their sources. If I see someone dressed up in a clown suit at a board meeting, I might call them a clown, and it would be degrading, but that is just what they are. There is a fine line between being CIVIL and being innacurate- not calling a spade a spade. I think pseudoskeptic sometimes meets this "clown in the boardroom" criteria.

However, both sides here need to be told to be more CIVIL. The word "believer," has been thrown around here too, in a pejoritive sense. It is also unCIVIL. If we ban both terms, then we would be being fair. But not one without the other. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying you intend to continue your incivility until others stop? Simões (/_contribs) 07:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a nice attempt to twist what I said back against me. No, I intend to state things as they are. I may have said that particular people are pseudoskeptics, but I don't recall doing so. Meanwhile, I've been accused of "rants" putting in "bizarre" things, being a wikilawyer, being unCIVIL. I'm quite capable of saying "pseudoskeptic" without using the term. ScienceApologist, for example, denies things rather than expressing doubt in them, yet offers no proof or sources for his position. That's called a pseudoskeptic. Pseudoskeptic is not an insult, like "donkey turd," but a word which is a valid name for a position.

There: I've said ScienceApologist is a pseudoskeptic, and I've said why he is. That is not an insult, but simply an expression of the facts. It is exactly equivalent to saying that his position on some subjects lacks scientific rigor in a particular way- a statement which is allowed under Misplaced Pages rules. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 19:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Support--Per above.Wikidudeman 16:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe Fred Bauder is wrong that using this term is assuming bad faith. It is merely asserting that a person is scientifically off-track. There is such a thing as a "pseudoskeptical argument," and there is such a thing as a "pseudoskeptic" when a person continues to promote such unscientific arguments when s/he has been told about them. The term "believer," is much more insulting. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

From what I can see, the term "Pseudoskeptic" appears to be a neologism employed mostly by proponents of crank and fringe theories to characterize those who disagree with them . It is not a widely-supported term in academia, science, or law. In any case, name calling of any kind is highly discouraged on Talk pages. - LuckyLouie 20:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This is really disgusting. LuckyLouie thinks it's just fine to say "crank," but isn't OK to say "pseudoskeptical," even though crank is much more of a mere insult. Crank, as he links to it, means:

"Crank" is a pejorative term for a person who

1. holds some belief which the vast majority of his contemporaries would consider false, 2. clings to this belief in the face of all counterarguments or evidence presented to him. a "cranky" belief is so wildly at variance with some commonly accepted truth as to be ludicrous, 2. arguing with the crank is useless, because he will invariably dismiss all evidence or arguments which contradict his cranky belief.

Common synonyms for "crank" include kook and crackpot.

Contrast this with the term pseudoskeptic, which has a specific scientific meaning.

This is blatant hypocrisy, to call me and others a cranks (and yes, he was calling us cranks, any denial of that would be silly), while at the very same time complaining that I might use the word pseudoskeptic. Absolutely disgusting blatant hypocrisy. I formerly said that this editor was one of the more NPOV ones. I even argued with Tom Butler about it. I was wrong. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 21:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Still beats being called a donkey turd, but I agree. These are all insults, even if they have a technical meaning. People can call each other more diplomatic names. It's not like anyone has to use those terms. I don't like "Quack" either, though it has a specific meaning and widespread usage. It too is meant to be insulting (hadn't seen it mentioned yet).

--Nealparr 22:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The work "crank" appears -if my count is right- 29 times on this page. This proposal would be fine were it not such an exercise in hypocrisy. If ArbCom is decent and fair and takes away everyone's favorite calling name, I'm for it. However let it be noted that "pseudoskeptic" is a lot more CIVIL than what we cranks get called. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

agree - It is also a neologism. I can't find it in a standard dictionary. see Misplaced Pages:Avoid neologisms. Bubba73 (talk), 23:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this term should not be used to attack people (but sometimes it can be used in extraordinary circumstances). However, this is not a neologism, Marcello Truzzi coined the term. Wooyi 23:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the Misplaced Pages article on neologism? A coined term is a neologism by definition. --ScienceApologist 17:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you read avoid neologisms? It says "New terms don't belong in Misplaced Pages unless there are reliable sources about the term". Follow that up by reading Pseudoskeptic, and you will see that it is not a "new term" - unless you consider a term that was used in 1942 and has roots in the 19th century as "new". It also has many reliable sources about the term - else there would not be a Misplaced Pages article on the subject. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I vehemently oppose use of this term. As used by advocates of pseudoscience to get back at sceptics, a more accurate term would be extreme scepticism, but there is, as far as I can tell, no reliable independent definition of the term outside of websites pushing frequently debunked, extreme fringe and / or pseudoscientific theories. It is arguable that the term should properly apply to those who affect scepticism but in reality accept fringe beliefs, as a form of astroturfing. The term is objectively meaningless, undefined in reputable sources, and has no place on Misplaced Pages. Guy (Help!) 16:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Is Marcello Truzzi a reliable source? Wooyi 14:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

He's about as reputable a person as you could get. Founding co-chairman of CSICOP/CSI, etc. And the term was not first used by him. Guy is also attacking the Zetetic Scholar, a skeptical, and very level-headed, publication. Guy's post is more uninformed bunk. And whiny hypocritical bunk at that, as it uses the word "pseudoscience," and incorporates assumption of bad faith, then actually advocates the use of the word for those Guy opposes. "Objectively meaningless?" Another example of speaking from ignorance. See this. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Pseudoskeptic does not appear in Merriam-Webster or Oxford English Dictionary. Contrast that with their respective definitions for pseudoscience. I haven't looked carefully enough yet to weigh in on whether or not I think pseudoskeptic is a neologism, but its absence in the major dictionaries is suggestive. Antelan 20:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It is also not in the New Oxford American Dictionary. According to the definition of neogolism, I think that makes it a neogolism. Bubba73 (talk), 20:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I also checked four lists of words available on the internet, the Microsoft Word spelling checker, and the EditPad Pro spelling checker, and it isn't in any of them either. Bubba73 (talk), 21:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

No matter what, Marcello Truzzi is a reliable source...that's it. Wooyi 21:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NEO distinguishes between neologisms as articles and neologisms in articles. In brief, neologisms make fine encyclopedic articles as long as they are themselves encyclopedic, notable, and backed by reliable sources. They are not acceptable to use in articles. So it may well be the case that pseudoskeptic is an appropriate article topic but an inappropriate label to apply in an article, or on a talk page. Antelan 22:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

That page also says "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." Bubba73 (talk), 23:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree/Oppose. Various "defenders of truth" and apologists use pseudoskepticism, eg., when skepticism deviate from objectivity. J. D. Redding 18:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC) (ps., objectivity is neutrality)

Mainstream usage governs Misplaced Pages terminology

25) The English word science is used generally in mainstream English dictionaries to describe many systematic data collection and explanation methodologies that violate the scientific method, such as in "the science of theology," "the science of golf," "the science of purchasing," and "cooking is both a science and an art." Here is a convenient link to a representative sample of mainstream English dictionary definitions for science.

Comment by Arbitrators:

In this context "science" means inquiry which satisfies rigorous standards. Fred Bauder 18:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Rednblu obviously has a problem, then with our own entry on science. Misplaced Pages terminology is discussed in articles at Misplaced Pages. It's referenced, cited, etc. Dictionaries are not generally considered to be the kind of references required for articles. --ScienceApologist 18:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Rednblu, could you give an example of how the examples you give such as "the science of golf" violate the scientific method? --Minderbinder 18:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Ordinary people may, in the course of everyday language, choose to use the word "science" to refer to things which are unrelated, tangential, or even opposed to the principles of science and the scientific method. Misplaced Pages should not. SheffieldSteel 22:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there is a sliding scale of science and that not all science is quantitative, and that some sciences are qualitative or sometimes referred to as soft sciences. I don't know if that's what you mean however : )

--Nealparr 21:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Rednblu 18:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Really? Those examples (golf, cooking, etc) are figurative uses of the word science. If I talk about the "science of the perfect soft-boiled egg", for example, I'm using language figuratively. It doesn't convey my disrespect for the scientific method as an integral component of "science" in its literal sense. MastCell 21:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, let's just consider one case at a time. Let's take "the science of golf." Playing golf to become the money winner of the PGA Tour requires a lot of very deft "systematic observation and experiment" as you call it. John Zumerchik describes it in a book titled Newton on the Tee: A Good Walk Through the Science of Golf. I guarantee you that none of the science of golf is figurative; it is very physical. Have you ever hit a golf ball? And none of the primary parts of the scientific method are involved in that "systematic observation and experiment" that makes winning at golf a tough science. A lot of the "systematic observation and experiment" of golf is unfounded superstition that works and generates long strings of unearned luck. The more common superstitions that are a necessary part of that science of winning the PGA Tour have been documented from the golf galleries by a golfer and his sixteen year old son in a book titled the "101 Superstitions of Golf". Misplaced Pages should use the word science the way that mainstream professionals use the word science--generally having nothing to do with the scientific method, but sometimes in special cases very much involved with the scientific method. --Rednblu 23:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

A semantic argument for which I don't understand the application. Are you suggesting that golf be listed as a topic within WP's Science Portal? - LuckyLouie 23:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Zero percent semantics here; 100% observation here of the mainstream usage pattern that science generally in mainstream usage does not involve the scientific method. Those who are making the semantic argument are the ones arguing that "science" by its very nature has to be scientific method--mainstream usage be damned. For simplicity, the SciencePortal should keep its current name, but actually the more appropriate label for that portal would be ScientificMethodPortal, is that not true? --Rednblu 00:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Splitting unnecessary hairs and borderline absurd. It is not the job of Misplaced Pages to correct the misuse of the term "science", nor is it required just because it is often misused for the editors at Misplaced Pages to misuse it. This is like arguing that because most people mistakenly believe that the only manmade object visible from space is the Great Wall of China we should report that in the Great Wall article and not point out that it is wrong since it is a "majority view". --ScienceApologist 00:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Another perfect non sequitur, my friend. The proposal here merely is that Misplaced Pages should use the word science with the mainstream meaning and not force the tiny minority view that science is only the scientific method. --Rednblu 00:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The mainstream meaning of science is that it uses the scientific method. I encourage you to trapse over to the science article and modify it if you are so convinced to the contrary. --ScienceApologist 00:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This is another example of how dictionaries are not always useful objects. SA's comments above summarize this well. JoshuaZ 00:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

This argument amounts to defining science as "everything that is called science in mainstream usage." By this definition, parapsychology could certainly be called science, as could golf, and boiling an egg. Not helpful. SheffieldSteel 18:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Yes, there is a science of golf. It's called ballistics (or you could include it under mechanics if you like). There is a science of cooking, it's a branch of chemistry, albeit with a strong empirical component. In both of these cases, if you follow precisely the same steps, the same result will always be achieved, within the limits of experimental accuracy (disclaimer: in the science of golf, the player is an uncontrolled variable, so I cannot promise to duplicate Tiger Woods' performance on a course, but if you hit a golf ball with a given force in a given direction it will always behave in the same way, which is the point; the science of golf lies in trying to remove the variables). So: the term science, used in its informal or rhetorical sense as described, is used to mean serious and reasonably rigorous attempts to remove chance variables and the unrepeatable; the proposed text, on the other hand, reverses this to assert the legitimacy of the precise opposite.

All legitimate scientific endeavour is governed by the scientific method, and the scientific method seeks to replace speculation and hypothesis with fact, to explain everything by reference to the currently understood principles of science, and above all to apply Occam's Razor to every situation - "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity." Necessity, in this case, does not include avoiding disillusionment. To be blunt, this is just another worthless red herring trailed by Rednblu. As the proposed injunction at the top says, Rednblu is not helping. Guy (Help!) 10:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

A campaign to change mainstream usage violates WP:NPOV

26) It is a violation of WP:NPOV for Misplaced Pages editors to refuse the published statements of ReliableSources that parapsychology is a science since that usage of the English word "science" fully complies with the definition for the English word science in mainstream English dictionaries even if parapsychology violates the scientific method.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No, science should be used in this context only for science that employs rigorous standards. Fred Bauder 18:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Since Rednblu didn't outline what makes the sources who desribe parapsychology as a science "reliable" to make that determination, this statement is basically useless, as far as I'm concerned. --ScienceApologist 18:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think describing parapsychology as science, as an uncontroversial fact, is problematic. It should be treated as a controversial proposition, per discussion occuring outside Misplaced Pages. Instead of saying parapsychology is a science, report on the discussion surrounding it.

--Nealparr 21:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment This completely groundless proposal seems to border on nonsense. No evidence has been presented that parapsychology is a science. The line of reasoning sounds like a case of aggravated wikilawyering. We already have a perfectly useful term for subjects which comply with the mainstream definition of the word "science" but violate the scientific method, and it is pseudoscience. SheffieldSteel 22:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The word "Parapsychology" literally means "the scientific study of ....", please do not confuse the definition of the word with the actions of people who use it. While people do preform pseudoscience under the banner of parapsychology, the definition of the word cannot and must not be disputed. perfectblue 17:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Rednblu 18:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose, utterly oppose. Science uses the scientific method. Even the dictionary link you gave describes science as "using systematic observation and experiment". In other words, the scientific method. The argument here is apparently that a narrowly interpreted dictionary definition should trump common sense. Also, reliable sources have not been produced demonstrating that parapsychology is widely considered "a science", and if they were, disregarding them would violate WP:V, not WP:NPOV. Utterly opposed - did I say that already? MastCell 21:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Not only is this a content ruling, it completely fails to acknowledge the problem I identified earlier, which is that scientific study of a subject does not make the subject scientific. Guy (Help!) 22:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose, bordering on "Oh hell no" Aside from the issues brought up by Guy directly above, this would amount to original research and POV pushing about the nature of science. Furthermore, it would deliberately obfuscate things since there is often a set of positive connotations to the word "science". Very often proponents of all sorts of fringe thigns want to have their cliched cake and eat it too- they want the positive connotations of the word "science" without any of the associated burden. It is not Misplaced Pages's job to assist them in this endeavor. JoshuaZ 00:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Not all science follows the scientific method

27) "Pseudoscience" is a pejorative term used by those who follow the scientific method and per WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL shouldn't be used to describe the work of other editors or of people mentioned in articles (unless it's a quote cited to a ReliableSource).

Comment by Arbitrators:

This is certainly true, one need only consider Psychoanalysis, but in this context some inquiries do, and some don't. Those that don't are properly termed pseudoscience. Fred Bauder 18:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Same problem as the above. Rednblu hasn't bothered to describe what makes something a reliable source. --ScienceApologist 18:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Almost agree. The proposals I submitted requesting that claims of pseudoscience being adequately sourced are less confrontational in wording.

--Nealparr 21:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Depending on its interpretation this proposal is either meaningless or hopeless. Either existing guidelines such as WP:V and WP:ATT already cover this subject, or an attempt is being made to argue special treatment for the term "pseudoscience." SheffieldSteel 03:17, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Troll. Don't feed 'em. Simões (/_contribs) 18:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Rednblu 18:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree in part, dissent in part the header "not all science follows the scientific method" is actually right, philosophy is a science, but not all pre-eminent philosophers follow scientific method. However, this proposal itself is too vague, so dissent in part. Wooyi 21:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Two questions for your final exam: 1) What source do you have that indicates that philosophy is a science? 2) Why doesn't Misplaced Pages call philosophy a science? --ScienceApologist 21:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding to philosophy, I was looking at the American heritage dictionary, which one definition of philosophy being "The science comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology." I suggest that the "pseudoscience part" be be modified to "pseudoscience is a pejorative term and should not be applied to a discipline unless an authoratitive scientific source has stated so." By this, I mean, if a prestigious scientific institution label a discipline as pseudoscience, then it's okay to state as so on Misplaced Pages, otherwise it should be generally avoided. Wooyi 21:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sorry about the error in "philosophy", I was looking at the outdated American Heritage in the electronic version in my computer produced by Kingsoft company. The new version says it's a discipline instead of science. However, my other comments still stand. And another example of a science not following the strict sense "scientific method" would be political science. Wooyi 21:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a citation which explains how political science does not follow the scientific method? --ScienceApologist 22:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you suggest a modification of wording that would clarify specifically the issues and solutions in this case? --Rednblu 21:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

See my earlier proposal

--Nealparr 21:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. I acknowledge that you got me to thinking on this track. Your wording may be more diplomatic and perhaps more useful in getting everyone to agree to it. In this particular proposal, I was interested in modeling accurately the points of view underlying this case. That is, the following falsifiable hypotheses seem to be warranted given available empirical evidence. First, "pseudoscience" is a term used pejoratively by the believers in the scientific method. Who else uses the term "pseudoscience" as a term of first-choice? Second, as with any pejorative defamatory label, WP:NPOV would require citation to a ReliableSource that had Verified the basis of the pejoration by some professional standard of "Verifiability, not truth." --Rednblu 22:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose as the third consecutive formulation of the same idea (that science doesn't use the scientific method). Things that have been labeled "pseudoscience" by a verifiable source should be described on Misplaced Pages as pseudoscience, preferably with attribution as to who is doing the name-calling. That said, I have not thus far seen enough sourcing to label parapsychology a "pseudoscience". MastCell 22:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you think political science really follow the "scientific method"? Wooyi 22:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that it doesn't? --ScienceApologist 22:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Political empiricism? hehe. I'll see if I can find anything on that ... J. D. Redding

• Oppose The scientific method is how scientists aquire knowelege. Chemist3456 22:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
• Redux: we don't like the word and require a higher standard of proof for its use than anybody has yet been prepared to legislate. No thanks. Pseudoscience is that which purports to be science but is not. If reputable authorities use the term, so should we. If they don't. we shouldn't. In other words, ,there is nothign for ArbCom to rule on here, this is already covered by existing policy at WP:ATT. Guy (Help!) 22:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Diagree. "pseudoscience" is a dictionary word with a clearly defined meaning that has been in use since 1844. Bubba73 (talk), 21:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose, for being a falsifiable statement that has been falsified. Antelan 20:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream distinctions

27a) Mainstream dictionaries provide ReliableSources for mainstream views of what words, such as "science" and "pseudoscience," mean. In many cases, the stipulative definitions provided by the scientific method have been useful in establishing falsifiable hypotheses that could be "Verified" in an experiment. And to the extent that these stipulative definitions used in developing the scientific method have become recognized among mainstream scholars, those stipulative definitions have been reported in mainstream dictionaries along with other mainstream usage (see for example, the mainstream dictionary reporting of the stipulative definition of "work" found useful in the scientific method as "13. abbr. w Physics The transfer of energy from one physical system to another . . . ") However, in the interest of WP:NPOV, the stipulative definitions used in the scientific method should not replace mainstream usage in those Misplaced Pages pages, such as paranormal, for which the scientific method does not produce "Verifiable" assertions from falsifiable hypotheses.

Comment by Arbitrators:

As phrased, this is readily misunderstood. Use plain talk. Fred Bauder 18:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Oppose. Again, Rednblu has made a proposal which requires us to believe that the results of scientific research are in some way to be distrusted or not relied upon. Is there any further evidence needed that "Rednblu is not helpful"? SheffieldSteel 14:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Too wordy. Not sure what I'd be agreeing or disagreeing with. --Nealparr 04:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Rednblu 18:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what it is saying. Bubba73 (talk), 21:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's standards and principles are not to be lowered because of the subject material or its proponents

28) Misplaced Pages's standards for sources should not be lowered simply because the subject's proponents may have lower standards. A source does not meet standards for reliability simply because all other relevant sources are less reliable. A source should not be described as "peer-reviewed scientific research" if those performing the review are members of a community which does not follow scientific principles such as scepticism, impartial assessment of empirical evidence, methodological naturalism, and logical reasoning. The principle that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary verification" applies equally well in a field where most, or even all, claims may be extraordinary.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Mileage may vary. We cut our pattern to fit our cloth. So parts of this are sound, but the summary is just not our practice. Fred Bauder 18:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed as an alternative to proposal 16, which was opposed as being at odds with the spirit of WP:RS. SheffieldSteel 03:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed somewhat. Part of this seems to demarcate what is and isn't science. Overall, I don't have a problem with it.

--Nealparr 03:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Journals simply identifying themselves as "peer reviewed" do not automatically meet standards for reliability. - LuckyLouie 19:48, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose: "Misplaced Pages's standards for sources should not be lowered simply because the subject's proponents may have lower standards" This statement is perjorative and carries an unqualified bias. Arbitrary judgments have no place in wikipedia. It is a matter of extreme dispute as to standards are lower in many cases. If a source is to be determined to have lower standards, there must be 1) A set of defined standards 2) A qualified third party proposing that standards are lower - perfectblue 18:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your objection. Should the article on unicorns document as unquestioned fact their social behaviour, for example, citing a book which most believers in unicorns respect as the definitive work on the topic? It is my contention that a source must be every bit as reliable to be cited on the unicorns page as any other page. No "arbitrary judgment" of unicorns or "bias" against their believers is required in order to say so. It seems that someone who opposes this principle is the one making an arbitrary judgment - that sources written by believers should be more readily accepted as reliable because of the bias of the believers. SheffieldSteel 02:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect SheffieldSteel, that's not exactly how WP:RS describes reliable sourcing. It says: "The reliability of a source depends on context; what is reliable in one topic may not be in another." So a source fit for the unicorn page may not be as reliable on any other page, but still reliable on the unicorn page. If there were a notable group of people out there who believed in unicorns, certainly their definitive works would be reliable sources to describe their beliefs (not as fact). Where else would you go to get information on their beliefs besides their own books? Unicorn believers are one thing, but here's a more realistic example: The Bible is a reliable source on the Christianity page, but less reliable on the evolution page. I don't know if many people would find fault in that, but how's that any different than saying the canonical works of paranormal authors should be considered reliable in showing what paranormal believers believe in? The source is totally tied to the context.

--Nealparr 05:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

This seems to me to be a misunderstanding of that line in WP:RS. One would still need some establishment that the text in question had such a meaning and due to the inherently unreliable nature of it should still be treated more as a primary source than as a secondary source. This is related to how we actually use the Bible in articles. For example, we don't use the Bible to assert that Christians believe that women should have limited rolls in the church. The sort of context where that line in WP:RS is applying seems to be a bit different. One recent example where it came up was whether Ted Haggard was gay. A quote from Dan Savage was used as a source. The point was made that although Savage might be a valid source for say how common certain fetishes were, he was not a reliable source for the sexual-orientation of someone he had never met and whom he had obvious political interest in labeling as gay. The distinction roughly speaking is when a source is discussing an area they are qualifed in as opposed to an area they are not qualified in. The unicorn source is in general, not qualified to discuss unicorns. It is only usable as a primary source of what many unicorn believers believe in. JoshuaZ 05:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I'm misunderstanding the line. It speaks the degree to which the statement will be challenged, the ability of the source to support it against the challenge, and notes that this will be different for each situation.

--Nealparr 06:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This reads to me as good common sense. Several times we have had problems with poorly sourced articles and individual editors asserting that in the absence of good sources we should use bad sources because that's all we have. The alternative to an article based on good sources is no article, not an article based only on bad sources. So I support this principle. Guy (Help!) 12:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Per Guy's comments, this seems to be pretty obvious. JoshuaZ 00:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree, as trivially true. Antelan 20:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Not all topics on Misplaced Pages are covered exclusively by science

29) Misplaced Pages is a diverse encyclopedia with many different topics and contents, and not all of them are covered by science and scientific method. Examples include articles regarding to arts and humanities, as well as rhetorics and ontology. On topics that are not exclusively covered by science, sources coming from fields other than the current scientific community can be reliable as well.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Right and the question is how to appropriately cover subjects which lack adequate scientific verification. We have an article Chroniton, nuff said. Fred Bauder 19:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. I would say that the examples given aren't covered by the hard sciences, but might be covered by soft sciences, and that there might be topics not covered by any stretch of science at all.

--Nealparr 04:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree, I think, but this is not my wikilawyer bailiwick.

Comment by others:

Proposed by Wooyi

I think this is right. It seems to me that our concern on Misplaced Pages should be "Verifiability, not truth." And perhaps the different fields of knowledge art, humanities, rhetoric, and ontology have within each of the associated fields a qualitatively different mechanism for establishing "Verifiability, not truth." And, in particular, it seems that paranormal events are categorically beyond the expertise of the scientific method since the scientific method restricts itself to "normal" events. Some Misplaced Pages editors would like to assert that paranormal events have only "normal" content, including a lot of distortions, wishful-thinking, and falsehood. But that conclusion seems to be 1) only OriginalResearch on somebody's part, 2) Unverifiable by the scientific method, and is a conclusion 3) contrary to what most mainstream ReliableSources actually have published. --Rednblu 23:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Relevance? Guy (Help!) 22:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with the sentiment Nonscience disciplines, such as art, rhetoric, etc., do not try to make disprovable or verifiable assertions, unless they are historical. For example, there is no "verifiability" in art. If you believe that there is, that is a question for the philosophy of art, which in itself has no means for arriving at verifiable conclusions. Areas that are concerned with making verifiable assertions fall under the purview of science (hard science, "soft" science, medicine, etc.). If paranormal-type articles make verifiable or disprovable claims, those assertions must pass scientific muster. Otherwise, they must not be asserted as if they had the weight of science. Antelan 06:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the sentiment Nonscience disciplines do try to make assertions, such as when they are historical. J. D. Redding 18:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Designation of pseudoscience

30)Fringe or controversial science should not be labeled pseudoscientific or otherwise negatively characterized, unless such characterization is clearly and unequivocally supported by the balance of reliable mainstream sources, as in the case of Astrology.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No, fields of knowledge which make scientific claims, but which lack scientific rigor are pseudoscience and properly characterized as such. Fred Bauder 19:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree: When dealing with a particular aspect or experiment etc (rather than a research group or person) something should be labeled as being outside of accepted science by somebody whom is qualified to make such a judgment. This should be backed up by a mainstream source NOT skeptics dictionary. - perfectblue 05:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like a proposal to only allow something to be described as pseudoscience if there's unanimous agreement. But wikipedia policy says we should present the degree of acceptance of ideas - if there are reliable sources calling something pseudoscience, we certainly can mention that view and source it. --Minderbinder 14:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I think some of the other proposals on when it is appropriate to use pseudoscience covers this well.

--Nealparr 07:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed with some reservation with the wording, but this proposal itself is good. Wooyi 19:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree on balance; Views should not be negatively characterized lightly. J. D. Redding 19:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Differing mainstream sources

31)Where reliable mainstream sources differ regarding the definition of a term, synthesis should not be attempted. Instead, controversy should be explicitly stated, or both definitions given.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This is correct, a synthesis which we do is original research. If the controversy is significant, both viewpoints should be set forth. Fred Bauder 19:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed: Where two differing mainstream arguments exist, they should be labeled as separate and competing hypothesis/opinions. Efforts to make it appear that there is scientific consensus when there is really strong mainstream disagreement should be expressly and directly forbidden. - perfectblue 05:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

While all notable points of view should be documented, we can't fall into the popular POV violation of calling any idea that someone disputes "controversial". I have no objection to including how terms are defined by fringe groups, as long as a general mainstream definition is given first and the fringe definition is clearly attributed. I also have concerns about wikilawyering with this one given the habit of redefining "mainstream". --Minderbinder 14:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Reporting controversy between proponents of an idea and the mainstream is never a problem, the "criticism" sections of dozens of articles attest to this. What is sometimes a problem is promoters of fringe ideas try to promote their ideas as controversial rather than ignored or unproven. On WP there is sometimes the strategic application of the term "controversial" as a replacement for stating that something is unproven, unaccepted, and promoted only by a minority. (.e.g. "As with all paranormal phenomenon, spoonbending ability is controversial") - LuckyLouie 17:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand. If mainstream sourc A says X, and mainstream source B says Y, then you don't combine XY. This is not about mainstream and fringe sources. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Martin, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - could you give a specific example of where you think "synthesis" is going on, or is this just a hypothetical? --Minderbinder 17:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

::Agreed. The wording states mainstream sources, so I'm agreeing from that standpoint. I'm not sure how this would apply to paranormal articles, but if it's here it must have come up. One possible example might be over Energy (physics) and Energy (spirituality), both of which are popular uses of the same word. These two different uses should really not be combined, but rather the distinction made clear.

--Nealparr 06:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to abstain on this one as it goes to the heart of the user conduct dispute over Martinphi and whether he is POV-pushing. I'm not getting involved in that and would rather see the disagreeing parties have their say.

--Nealparr 04:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This answer applies to a couple of these proposals. For instanceif a mainstream source defines a "psychic" as "someone with paranormal powers" and another mainstream source defines a psychic as "someone with supposed paranormal powers," we don't try to choose which one Misplaced Pages is going to reflect. If we are split on our interpretation of what the word "supposed" means, then we say that the sources are split. Or if we, for instance, think that the word "supposed" means "doesn't exist," then we explicate the controversy, saying that some sources say that a psychic is defined as a person who has paranormal powers, and some sources say that a psychic merely claims to have them. We don't try to make things up. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 09:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

In the specific case of "psychic", most mainstream sources use a qualifier of some sort. Sure, you can find a few that don't, but they are clearly in the minority. And if sources say "supposed", particularly if editors here disagree on what "supposed" means, the easiest and most neutral solution is just to say "supposed" - "making things up" has sadly happened, but it almost always has come from those bending over backwards trying to make a topic sound as if it's accepted as real. I absolutely favor definitions that are simple, direct, and consistent with what mainstream sources say, while you have proposed more and more convoluted definintions that barely even make sense. Heck, I've repeatedly proposed starting with a dictionary definition and only rewording enough to avoid copyright infringement - that's the exact opposite of synthesis or "making things up".

Here's a specific diff: . You claim that mainstream sources define "psychic" as a person who has paranormal powers, yet to support that definition, you cite 1) the Parapsychological Association website 2) the Encyclopedia of Occultism & Parapsychology 3) A paper published in the Psychological Bulletin which doesn't define the term as if it exists and even begins with the sentence "Most academic psychologists do not yet accept the existence of psi, anomalous processes of information or energy transfer (such as telepathy or other forms of extrasensory perception) that are currently unexplained in terms of known physical or biological mechanisms." and 4) the definitions at answers dot com, where aside from the Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia (is that the same as the one cited above?) only one definition defines it without a qualifier like "apparently". --Minderbinder 14:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You are probably wrong on this. My research says that the numbers are about even. And how would you know which definition is in the minority? And who are you to decide which definition to take?

"heck, I've repeatedly proposed starting with a dictionary definition and only rewording enough to avoid copyright infringement" You've proposed starting with your chosen dictionary definition. One that says what you like.

I could give you the definition from my (standard) dictionary, and online definitions if you want sources. You want to push your POV that psychics are fake. You might be right about psychics, but that doesn't give you a right to choose which mainstream source we use. Even if only one or two mainstream sources gave the alternate definition, it is not ours to choose. That is NPOV. You don't dispute that some mainstream sources give one definition, and some give the other. Therefore, you are POV-pushing. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 04:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Further, you're wrong with your link above:

American Heritage: A person apparently responsive to psychic forces.

Occultism and Parapsychology Encyclopedia: A term denoting (1) as an adjective, the paranormal character of certain phenomena and (2) as a noun, a sensitive individual, one susceptible to psychic influences.

Medical Dictionary: Capable of extraordinary mental processes, such as extrasensory perception and mental telepathy.

Worldnet (has several definitions): a person apparently sensitive to things beyond the natural range of perception

So what in the world is you point here?

"Aparently" doesn't count here- it is not pejoritive, and I don't remember you ever proposing it. I might even go for it. You are utterly ouside reality and NPOV here. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 04:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear that you don't consider "apparently" a pejorative, I'm sure it will get much more use now that you've cleared that up.

"You want to push your POV that psychics are fake." That's a pretty serious accusation. Please provide diffs on the evidence page showing edits I made saying psychics are fake, or retract it. Thanks. --Minderbinder 14:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The relevant issue here is not whether the term is "perjorative". At least that isn't in the phrasing. Apparently is perfectly relevant in this case and has a meaning very similar to that of supposedly. If you have a concern about perjorative wording that appears in mainstream sources, propose that separately. Furthermore, if being a perjorative matters but "apparently" and "supposedly" fall in different categories then how do you intend to tell the difference other than MartinPhi's personal feelings? JoshuaZ 14:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Assumption of unstated consensus

32)In the case of a topic which is notable enough to be in Misplaced Pages, mainstream consensus should not be assumed in the absence of reliable sources stating that consensus.

In the case of a topic which is notable enough to be in Misplaced Pages, but where reliable sources have not stated a mainstream consensus concerning the topic, a mainstream consensus should not be assumed.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I think the point of this is to forbid expression of a scientific opinion regarding matters which have not been scientifically investigated, hence, no reliable source. In such a case a brief comment that the matter has not been investigated or commented on by the scientific community be permitted and serve. The effect of such a comment is to communicate to a discerning reader that the matters has not reached the threshold of attracting serious inquiry. Fred Bauder 19:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It might do well to reword this, I'm not certain what exactly this means. - perfectblue 05:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy covers this situation already. If mainstream sources haven't weighed in on a fringe topic or extraordinary claim, it should be assumed that the mainstream hasn't accepted it, and that should be made clear in the article. --Minderbinder 14:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I wish everyone would get in the habit of saying mainstream science when they mean that versus "mainstream". In WP:FRINGE, it says "'Mainstream' here refers to ideas which are accepted or at least somewhat discussed as being plausible within major publications (large-circulation newspapers or magazines) or respected and peer-reviewed academic publications." You'd be surprised what some large-circulation newspapers and magazines are willing to accept as plausible. The Chicago Airport UFO was reported as plausible by the Chicago Tribune and Fox News, for example. Not that it was definitely a UFO, just that it was an acceptible idea that UFOs exist. The New York Times recently ran an opt-ed piece by Deborah Blum talking about the psychical research of William James where the topic was treated as plausible. Not that ghosts are real, just that it's an acceptible idea that they are. These are mainstream reflections. Not science, just mainstream. In "mainstream," all this weird stuff is an acceptible idea. None of them claim any of it is factual, just acceptible. If we're talking mainstream science, that's a different story.

Agreed. To the actual proposal. I don't think there's a lack of sourcing. Paranormal might be fringe, but it isn't all that obscure. When the lack of sources guideline was written, I believe it was written with the idea that some theory might have gone unnoticed by mainstream science and that you can deduce from that that it isn't accepted. Paranormal isn't obscure and doesn't meet that criteria. There's plenty of mainstream science sources chiming in on the paranormal overall. What they say is that science can't support the paranormal. They don't say that science has rejected it (or that science can't explore it), just that mainstream science can't support the theories. There's a number of sources for that.

--Nealparr 07:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Disagreement of mainstream statements of consensus

33)Where reliable sources disagree on the mainstream consensus, a mainstream consensus should not be asserted or assumed.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No, both viewpoints should be set forth. Fred Bauder 19:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree Where mainstream sources can't agree, there clearly is no consensus. Arguments should be stated separately. - perfectblue 05:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

When mainstream sources disagree, both positions should be included if they are both notable. If mainstream sources agree, but fringe sources don't, then there is a mainstream consensus. This seems like an attempt to give undue weight to fringe sources. --Minderbinder 14:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there an example I can go off of where reliable sources have disagreed on a mainstream consensus?

--Nealparr 07:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

See answer under Differing mainstream sources above. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 09:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

If this is about mainstream consensus over definitions, I'm abstaining as it goes to the question of user conduct and whether it is POV-pushing. If not, I agree that in general a mainstream consensus should be reasonably demonstrated before it is assumed.

--Nealparr 04:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Synthesis of disagreeing mainstream sources

34)Where mainstream sources disagree on the status of a fringe subject, and these sources are in roughly equal number and roughly equal in reliability, synthesis should not be attempted, but rather the disagreement stated explicitly.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Sure, but marginal as a principle. Fred Bauder 19:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the spirit of this, but based on past editing I can see this getting wikilawyered by calling fringe sources "mainstream" and by insisting that fringe sources are as reliable and numerous as mainstream ones. A major problem that has been illustrated by this situation is counting sources as if they are votes - some editors seem to think if there are two experiments claiming to prove something and one claiming to find no evidence, that's grounds for declaring an idea "proven" regardless of reliablility of sources or any other evidence of acceptance. --Minderbinder 14:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed as worded. --Nealparr 07:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Fred Bauder says it is marginal as a principle, but I've had endless trouble with people over this. They want to basically "synthesize it their way," whereas I argue that the disagreement should be stated outright. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed as worded.J. D. Redding 19:17, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Majority view versus skeptical view

35)The term "majority view" is not equivalent to the "skeptical view," unless reliable sources document the fact.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No, science incorporates skepticism, but perhaps what is meant is that mere skepticism does not imply an active posture of debunking. Fred Bauder 19:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Partial Agree: Something does not have to be skeptical, scientific, or even rational to be believed. Sometimes the majority can be believers, not scientists. - perfectblue 05:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

In the case of a fringe topic or extraordinary claim, in the absence of evidence of acceptance, we assume the scientific community hasn't accepted it. The general attitude of science is that ideas aren't accepted as fact until evidence has been shown, which can be described as a default "skeptical" position. Misplaced Pages takes a similar position in that material can't be added until it is reliably sourced - that can also be described as "skepticism". While "majority view" isn't defined as "skeptical view", in many cases the two are the same, and in cases where there's no evidence of the majority accepting an idea, we assume they haven't. It's really just burden of proof - we need to prove that an idea has been accepted by the public, if that proof doesn't exist we don't need to prove that it hasn't. --Minderbinder 15:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

In fact, in Misplaced Pages the skeptical view of rejection is frequently assumed by the fact of silence from the majority of the scientific community. To assert rejection -or to assert any majority view- reliable sources are needed. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that we should avoid saying something is rejected when we don't have sources saying it is (are there any articles currently saying a paranormal topic is rejected?). But we also can't say that a wording means "rejected" when it's not actually saying that - "silence from the majority" means not accepted, and we are expected to make that clear in articles. --Minderbinder 17:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Anything that is posted to Misplaced Pages that is likely to be challenged requires reliable sourcing. If speaking generally on something, really good sourcing isn't all that necessary. When making a specific comment, like the majority feels this way or that, there's got to be a source backing that up. Logical leaps happen all the time on Misplaced Pages. If we assume that the default position of science is skepticism (and I don't doubt that it is), there's a leap from science doesn't accept it to the majority doesn't accept it. Majority in science maybe, majority in general not so much (as polls sometimes show). There's also a leap from non-support to non-acceptance. An example of this would be the poll that shows 2/3 of scientists believe in a God. Many of those scientists probably feel that science doesn't support the notion of a God, but accept the notion anyway, just not from a scientific view.

--Nealparr 07:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. This borders on the surreal. Virtually all working, academic scientists are also skeptics. What's more, there is often no single "skeptical" view. Good luck finding consensus on, e.g., the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Perhaps Martinphi means something else here? Simões (/_contribs) 06:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed with some reservation with the wording. Wooyi 19:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The principle is already covered above in NPOV vs. SPOV. This is, I think, a less neutral statement of the same point. Guy (Help!) 22:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Majority view" is not equivalent to the "skeptical view" and NPOV is not equivalent to SPOV. J. D. Redding 19:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Documentation of acceptance within relevant academic community

36)Articles which cover controversial, disputed, or discounted ideas in detail should document (with reliable sources) the current level of acceptance for the idea among the relevant academic community.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This is often not practical as many alleged phenomena have not attracted serious scientific interest. It is best to just comment that the matter has not been seriously researched. Fred Bauder 19:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, with the clarification that if there's no evidence that something has been accepted, we assume that the level of acceptance is low - we don't expect to find a wide range of sources expressing "we don't accept it". In addition, with fringe topics and particularly extraordinary claims that may contradict established and accepted scientific laws and principles, the "relevant academic community" is science overall, not a fringe group doing research. It doesn't follow undue weight and NPOV if we only let Timecubeologists have a say in the article Time cube. --Minderbinder 15:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Weight is very applicable here though. In addition, all notable views are to be reported, not just the relevant academic community. It's often brought up whether a plumber should have a say about baking. The question should be whether or not a plumber's opinion about baking is notably relevant. A statistician might not be in the field of parapsychology, but a statistician might have a relevant view about the work of parapsychologists.

--Nealparr 07:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Mainstream non-acceptance versus rejection

37)Mainstream science has not rejected an idea or fact merely because mainstream science has not accepted it.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No, but the question is more subtle, has the matter attracted serious scientific inquiry? If not, as a practical matter, the scientific community has rejected the idea. Fred Bauder 19:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --Nealparr 07:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that this is in a policy somewhere already, however I Agree, the absence of material from mainstream science is often abused by skeptics to say that the subject is not notable even if the topic is believed by millions of unscientific people around the world. - perfectblue 08:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that in the case of failure to accept an idea, we shouldn't call it rejected. That said, if mainstream science hasn't accepted it, we need to make that clear in the article and must not give undue weight to those advocating a minority position. And we can't declare about any article content we don't like "that makes it sound like it's rejected". --Minderbinder 15:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Minderbinder has a completely skewed notion of what "minority" means- this is the reason for the proposal about "majority does not mean skeptical," in that a majority may accept an idea while a few skeptics reject it, but nevertheless skeptics on Misplaced Pages want to say that a majority does not accept, or a majority rejects. It should rather be stated exactly as it is: a majorit accepts, but skeptics reject. Just as you'd say "a majority accepts God, and athiests reject God." This is an important principle, and has been totally skewed in the paranormal articles. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how specifially you're taking issues with my "notion", I define minority the same way as most editors on wikipedia and most average people (sorry, it's that pesky mainstream again). And I have a strong suspicion that Arbcom isn't going to buy into a redefinition of majority/minority either. As for a the case of something accepted by the public but rejected by "a few skeptics" do you have a specific example in mind or is this just a hypothetical you've imagned? Is there an article involved in this debate where we have sources showing a majority of either scientists or the general public accepting an idea and a few skeptics reject it? As for the God example, even when a majority of people believe in God, we define as something people hold as a belief, not just say "God is an all-powerful being". --Minderbinder 18:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Then I cannot concieve how you can be so outside the mainstream of reality. You often talk about the majority, for instance in relation to EVP. Well, the majority of people don't know about EVP. Of those who do, they mostly accept it as paranormal. But you still insist on the pretense that the skeptical view is the majority view- without any support for that position whatsoever. There is no question of my needing sources here, because you are the one wanting to base editing of articles on your definition of majority=skeptical. For that, you should have a source- or a policy. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 09:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read what I have written. I specifically said "majority view" isn't defined as "skeptical view". Do I need to show you a diff? If the majority of people don't know about EVP (which we agree on), then the majority view is "never heard of it". So it's a violation of undue weight and NPOV to write an article as if a concept that most people haven't even heard of, much less agree with, is accepted by the mainstream. If I create a theory of talking lizards, do I get to write an article that makes it sound like it has mainstream support just because it is obscure (and my pals the other Talkinglizardologists believe in it!)? No. --Minderbinder 13:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Re Fred Bauder's comment: if you're right on what you say, WP:FRINGE needs re-writing. It says "However, a lack of consideration or acceptance does not necessarily imply rejection either; ideas should not be portrayed as rejected or labeled with pejoratives such as pseudoscience unless such claims can be documented in reliable sources." Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Relevance? We have evidence that the scientific establishment has decided these things are, for the most part, no longer even worth investigating, and we have an article in Nature which says just that, so this seems to be a distraction, not a valid principle. Guy (Help!) 11:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages presents the scientific consensus

38)A scientific consensus is defined as "the collective judgment, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of science at a particular time." Where articles present subjects dealing with scientific subjects, Misplaced Pages primarily presents the scientific consensus.

Comment by Arbitrators:

True, but this area falls more into popular culture. Fred Bauder 19:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

(proposed by Martinphi but unsigned) --Minderbinder 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Current trends strongly suggest that this would be applied prejudicially for bad faith deletions. 1) There is often non scientific consensus on specific issues. You have disagreement, blanket dismissal, or no research. 2) Belief is often not based on science. For example, perpetual motion is covered under physics, which says that is impossible, yet belief continues. 3) Quite a few paranormal topics only just graze science with the other 99% being made up of myth, legend and personal belief, or blatantly bad interpretations that can only be called science by the obtusely ignorant.

In these cases, only premises or conclusions invoking science should be subjected to regs regarding the mainstream, the rest should be treated as myth or legend and simply recorded unless it has been specifically rebutted. - perfectblue 08:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. But... Misplaced Pages presents all notable views including scientific consensus (when notable), not just the scientific consensus in the field. Science outside the field is notable as well. Now we talk start talking about weight, which is the degree of separation from mainstream. In the case of scientific consensus, that would be degrees of separation from mainstream science. The guideline is easy to misinterpret, but it isn't broken. Yes, we present the consensus in the field, but not exclusively. That consensus is weighted in the article along with other notable views.

--Nealparr 07:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I think we have already said this better above. Guy (Help!) 11:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What "mainstream" doesn't refer to

39) In science-related content, instances of the terms "mainstream," "majority," "minority," "fringe," etc. are not referring to the views of the lay population.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Yes... Fred Bauder 19:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Specifically, interpretations such as this (which invokes a poll of randomly-selected Britons) are absolutely incorrect. Simões (/_contribs) 06:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I would change it to science-related "content", however, for two reasons. One is that most paranormal articles aren't science-related articles, and the other is that most articles have different sections for different aspects of the topic. An article could have both a section on pop-culture and a section on science, for example, and each section would have widely different notions of "mainstream" that would apply to it. This proposal would apply to science content versus the entire article.

--Nealparr 07:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

That would be a more accurate way of stating the principle. Changed. Simões (/_contribs) 10:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Opposed. This still leaves open the little loophole of having the opinion of a botanist take as relevant to quantum physics et seq. See # 40 Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 01:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

What "mainstream" doesn't refer to #2

40)In science-related content, instances of the terms "mainstream," "majority," "minority," "fringe," etc. are not referring to the views of the lay population or to scientists outside the field directly relevant to the content.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Yes, but it is more subtle, the opinions that count are those of people who have seriously considered a matter from a scientific viewpoint, regardless of field of study. A physicist who has not seriously considered time travel is no expert on time travel. Fred Bauder 19:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

There is absolutely no reason that scientists in one field have a right to an opinion concerning an entirly different field of science. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 02:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. I frequently exercise my right to hold various opinions concerning entirely different fields. But even if we were to overlook that, this principle is just meant to dovetail with the notion that parapsychology actually constitutes a scientific field. Doesn't that form part of your argument that concludes, "Only parapsychologists have a right to have scientific opinions on certain kinds of paranormal phenomena, including their existential status"? And as an aside, are you already recanting what you said yesterday? Simões (/_contribs) 02:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not about your right to an opinion, but the right of anyone to have their opinion matter in Misplaced Pages when they may not know anything at all about the subject.

Do you seriously believe that the opinion of a botanist is important to an article on quantum physics???

My opinion was sarcasm. I am at a rather deep loss as to why you did not understand this. BTW, it's called a reductio ad absurdum argument. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 02:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with the wording. You can have mainstreams within mainstreams within mainstreams, which I've pointed out before. Mainstream science might be a sub-mainstream within mainstream culture, for example. If there's a "mainstream" opinion within a fringe, it should be stated, but that doesn't elevate it to "the" mainstream. Other, higher, mainstreams would have more weight. Thus, there might be a mainstream opinion within para-psychology, but it would still have less weight than a mainstream opinion within psychology itself.

--Nealparr 08:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Re Fred Bauder's comment: Agree totally, and I'd like this proposal contrasted with the proposal above which allows that the scientific "majority" includes those who have not studied the field. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 20:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Do you seriously believe that the opinion of a botanist is important to an article on quantum physics???, asked Martinphi. Actually, there's no reason a botanist cannot interpret data to come to a realization that impacts quantum physics. Gregor Mendel, a monk, gave rise to the field of genetics through his work with gardening/botany. Or consider Louis DeBroglie, originally trained as an historian, who made great theoretical strides in quantum theory. In science, any person with intellect, insight, and some training can make fundamental discoveries. Certainly, the barrier to interpretation is even less. If a botanist makes a valid commentary on my field, why should I consider it any less valid because of his credentials? Antelan 06:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Very true. But this is not the point. We know a person has expertise by the acknowledgment of others. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 02:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Martinphi's point here, which I think is a very reasonable one, is: why should we invest the views of scientists who have made no attempt to study something with the same authority as if they were scientists-in-that-field? For sure, a scientist in one field is not duty bound to say nothing about any other field ever, especially if they have devoted time and effort to study it, but what we have here are simply outspoken critics of alleged paranormal phenomena who have made little or no attempt to investigate those phenomena, but who simply indulge in armchair speculation in non-peer-review journals. Richard Dawkins is a good example: here we have someone who has written many books/articles about God but whose understanding of theology is at Sunday school level. Consider the following argument: evolution is explanatorily empty because, according to evolutionary theorists, life evolved in Primordial's soup; but then Primordial must already have been highly advanced if s/he was making soup and so no theory about the origins of life can presuppose the existence of such an advanced being without begging the question. Now, when you see what's wrong with that argument you will see what is wrong with many of the things that scientists say about paranormal phenomena. Their words in many cases betray an extraordinarily superficial "understanding" of the subject at hand, and to portray those words as the words of SCIENCE (or a scientist qua scientist) is to appeal to an authority that, in those cases, simply does not exist. I don't know anyone who is objecting to the views of scientists who have studied the topic at hand in some depth featuring prominently. What I think is being objected to, what I certainly object to, are the views of rent-a-mouth sceptics who happen to be scientists and who hold forth on anything and everything, being presented as the view of SCIENCE. Science has said nothing until it says it in a peer-review journal. And this, I think, is an important maxim to bear in mind when one is trying to identify what is mainstream.Davkal 09:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Falsifiability Invokes Science

41) Falsifiable claims should require scientific evaluation before being presented as fact; claims that have not been evaluated scientifically (that is, via a rigorous, peer-reviewed process in which COI's have been disclosed) should not be presented as if they were verified.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Right on Fred Bauder 19:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

The thrust of this proposal is as follows:

• (1) If a statement is falsifiable, has been evaluated rigorously, and is widely held, it should be presented as accepted.
• (2) If a statement is falsifiable, but has been evaluated in a manner not considered to meet rigorous standards, its conclusions should not be presented as accepted, if they are even deemed notable enough to be presented at all.
• (3) If a statement is falsifiable but has not been evaluated at all, it should be presented as the opinion of the person advancing that statement and should not be treated as fact.
• (4) Nonfalsifiable claims ("Orange is the best color") should be presented as the opinion or belief of the person advancing that statement, and should be phrased and weighted accordingly.

Antelan 06:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Not all facts suffer scientific evaluation as it's being presented here. A great deal of the arguments in this ArbCom are for qualifying science as only natural science, involving strict controls and experiments, and all the rest as pseudoscience. I disagree with that, but that's the argument. If we accept that as a valid argument, it rules out many other "facts". Fact: A lot of people think aliens crashed at Roswell. Did I have to follow hard science to arrive at that fact? No, I just did a soft-science survey. A lot of these proposals talk about science as if everyone's actually agreed upon a definition, or as if the definition that's implied (hard science) is the only facts to be found. Fact: X amount of people are Christians. Has nothing to do with science.

--Nealparr 09:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agree Bubba73 (talk), 14:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Skepticism is the correct approach to paranormal subjects

42) The correct approach for an encyclopedia to take, when documenting paranormal subjects, is one of reasonable scientific skepticism. This means that the burden of proof is on those making paranormal claims: such claims can only be substantiated by controlled experiment using the scientific method, and any other form of verification must be presented as inconclusive.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Our policy is Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, not skepticism. Fred Bauder 14:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. It's my hope that this proposal will be seen as uncontroversial. Science is our basic tool for gaining knowledge of how the universe works, and aspects of scepticism are essential to any scientific investigation - in particular the concepts of intellectual caution, of suspended judgment, and of obtaining knowledge through systematic questioning and testing. Note the inclusion of the word "reasonable" - it is essential that wikipedia's coverage of paranormal subjects is susceptible to reason, rather than being dogmatic. SheffieldSteel 14:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Misplaced Pages is not Wikinfo. A sympathetic point of view is inappropriate on this wiki. Furthermore, as mentioned before, the scientific point of view is the neutral point of view in many contexts. Simões (/_contribs) 15:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose : Put simply, neutrality is the correct approach to paranormal subjects at Misplaced Pages. We're not in the business of performing experiments. We're in the business of writing content based on sources and following guidelines. Nothing more, nothing less. Skepticism is not always the more neutral approach as this proposal suggests.

--Nealparr 18:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose: Per my reasons below. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 19:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agree. It is like teaching about a belief. You can teach about the belief without teaching that the belief is true. I hope I'm making myself clear here. For instance, you can teach about a religion in a college course without teaching that the religion is true (that is left for the church). The same goes for beliefs in the paranormal. Bubba73 (talk), 14:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Additional comment. I agree with Simoes above. The scientific position doesn't depend on any beliefs or preconceived notions. It is based on evidence. As Simoes more-or-less states, and I stated earlier, the scientific "POV" is really not a POV at all. It is the middleground between believing anything and believing nothing, and it is based on evidence. I very good statement of the scientific skeptic position is the quote by Asimov on my page: user:Bubba73#Quotations. Bubba73 (talk), 16:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The proposal would be uncontroversial were it not for the almost total inability of many of those calling themselves sceptics to distinguish genuine scepticism from pseudoscepticism. For example, we have the oft-cited Robert Carroll openly acknowledging that he has no intention of providing "a balanced account of occult subjects", and yet there is a total refusal to accept that that statement clearly marks Carroll out as a pseudosceptic, and there is a constant drive (as above) to force Wiki to be a poor man's version of The Skeptic's Dictionary. What Carroll (and others such as Shermer, Csicop etc.) offer is untested pseudoscientific armchair speculation on paranormal topics - no peer-review, no experiments, indeed no science of any kind. The result is not genuine sceptical commentary from people who wish to remain agnostic due to lack of evidence, but ideologically/politically motivated polemics from those whose antipathy towards anything even remotely unconventional goes well beyond anything that could be justified by a mere lack of evidence. It is not for Wiki to function as a pulpit for preaching this particular minority (and extremist) religion. Until the nature of the "sceptical" community is at least partially acknowledged, all the lofty scientific ideals cited above remain empty posturing.Davkal 22:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Some editors make POV-pushing alterations to articles while making edit comments such as "fixing POV". Shall we, then, abandon the principle of NPOV? SheffieldSteel 15:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I also think that this proposal places far too much emphasis on the existence/reality or otherwise of a phenomenon. Wiki is not meant to be Appraisal-Central. Let us note the sceptical, and even the pseudosceptical, positions; let us state them clearly; but then let us go on to write a good article about the subject at hand without labouring every point, hedging every statement, and countering every claim to the extent that the articles become unreadable. This, I fear, is what has happened (is happening) to many articles on the paranormal which have become little more that battleground for those who wish to use Wiki to deny the possibility of anything paranormal. The EVP article, for example, devotes more than 30% of the entire article (nearly 1000 words out of less than 3000 total) to virtually the same (pseudo)sceptical point repeated over and over and over.Davkal 09:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

We cannot de-legitimize methods of science. This proposal asks us to ignore fieldwork (fieldwork is not controlled). It is not appropriate for an encyclopedia to decide to ignore certain types of science. This is far from a conventional or reasonable approach. I agree that skepticism, that is to say real skepticism, is the approach that Misplaced Pages should take to all subjects which deal with science. Not all things paranormal are related to science, I crossed out the above, because in reality, it is not the job of Misplaced Pages to be skeptical of, or to affirm, any claim. We merely report. This is a bad proposal. It is highly controversial, highly unconventional, and asks us to pass judgment. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 02:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Fieldwork can provide useful data which can be used to formulate hypotheses. Those hypotheses should be testable in a controlled experiment. If they are not, then there is little chance of the hypothetical phenomenon ever being verified. This is the scientific method; it's neither "unconventional" nor "controversial". This proposal does not "ask us to pass judgment" - indeed, that is the very antithesis of reasonable skepticism. The skeptic reserves judgment, until and unless the evidence is conclusive. SheffieldSteel 15:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

But Robert Carroll has passed judgement, as has Shermer, as have CSI(COP) - as have many editors here on the talk pages. According to them the paranormal is bunk, nonsense, garbage etc etc etc.. I am glad, then, that you understand that passing such judgement is the antithesis of true scepticism and therefore that the judgements of Carroll, Shermer, CSI(COP) and the editors here are the antithesis of scepticism. I hope this can now put an end to the pseudoscepticism debate.Davkal 16:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

SheffieldSteel, no offense: I know you are one of the more reasonable people on here. But that is absolute nonsense. Is the study of animals in the wild unscientific? Native peoples? Any number of other phenomena which only occur in the field? Death? Are you proposing that science cannot study violent death because it isn't reproduced in the laboratory? Are you saying that scientists cannot study migratory patterns of animals? Are you saying science cannot study anything that cannot eventually be brought to the lab? Are you saying that we can't study psychology because it is unethical to completely controll people's lives? There are many conditions which can be scientifically studied, but never controlled. Saying otherwise is utter nonsense. Are you saying, in the context of the paranormal, that we have to induce heart attacks which might be fatal to study Near Death Experiences, or that we have to produce a haunted laberatory, or that we have to produce reincarnation in the lab?

Further, having a skeptical, or pro, attitude is not the job of Misplaced Pages. This is why this proposal asks us to pass judgment. It is our job to report what others have said. To report but not characterize the debate. Let ArbCom see, and decide who is correct on these issues. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 18:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying any of those things. The proposal does not say anything about field versus laboratory research, nor does it attempt to define what is or is not scientific research. It does not address the issue of how we distinguish between hard science, social science, fringe science, junk science, urban legend, old wives' tales, or pseudoscience. It just says that if one makes paranormal claims, then those claims should be demonstrable in controlled experiments - and if not, the claims should be presented as unsubstantiated. In this case, extraordinary claims require neutral, evidence-based verification. Is that too much to ask? SheffieldSteel 20:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is way too much to ask that we should say that the paranormal can only be verified by "controlled experiment," because that is to say that we should discount one of the major ways science is done- fieldwork. You can't do a controlled field experiment. Much of science is uncontrolled, but that does not make it unscientific. Much of science is just observation of nature. This proposal would totally discount an alien ship coming down and blowing up the White house (or a dozen angels materializing on the White house lawn), because it isn't a "controlled experiment." It's pure skeptical POV-pushing. Utter unscientific bunk.

And, as I said, it isn't our job to be skeptical or "pro." We merely report sources. Another reason this is POV-pushing. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:52, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Case 1: the White House has been destroyed and witnesses report seeing bright lights in the sky. I say that the evidence for alien attack is inconclusive. Case 2: figures wearing white robes, and apparently glowing with an inner light, walk about on the White house lawn. Witnesses report miraculous cures. I say that the evidence for angels visiting us is inconclusive. I say that we should be trying to chase the lights in the sky, find out where they came from or where they go, analyse the stock market to find out who made money out of the destruction of the White House, or in the second case, interview the glowing figures on the lawn, and try to persuade them to demonstrate their miraculous cures in a hospital ICU. Then, perhaps, we might get conclusive evidence. Martinphi says my statements represent "utter unscientific bunk". That's just sad. SheffieldSteel 23:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's take some real cases. Case 1: A man writes a letter to another man and this letter, and it's contents, are reported in several books, in some academic papers, on numerous websites, as well as being well known to anyone with any knowledge of the subject matter. You say we can't be sure such a letter was written or what it said, even though after more than thirty years in the public domain nobody has ever so much as suggested there is anything dubious about it. Case 2: a man once worked for NASA and this is reported in numerous books (some by noted academics), articles and websites. You say it is case of (deliberate) mistaken identity with another man who has a similar name, who never worked for NASA, but who did write an article with a title a bit like something the guy who worked for NASA has something to do with. Case 3: a man does some tests in a company's lab, and this is reported in numerous books, articles and websites, as well as being well known to anyone with any knowledge of the subject matter. You say we can't be sure the tests took place even though after thirty years in the public domain nobody has even so much as suggested there is anything dubious about them. In all cases you, and the other skeptical editors, concoct fanciful tales to cast doubt on the reality of these mundane things and use this unreasonable doubt to demand impossible sources in order to prevent these well-known facts appearing in an article. Now that's sad!Davkal 00:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that in Davkal's posts and in martinphi's above, they both report as facts statements which are at best contested ("you say X", "aliens destroy the White house" etc.), before criticising anyone who doubts what they say. This well illustrates the problem with paranormal articles. SheffieldSteel 13:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The whole point of my post is that nobody (outside the Wiki talk pages) contests any of these things. They are not paranormal wonders that run counter to mainstream science in any way, shape or form. They are mundane facts well known to anyone with a knowledge of the subject matter: someone wrote a letter, someone had a job, someone did some tests. That you, and a few others, insist on concocting fanciful tales in order to support your unreasonable doubt shows exactly the problem with the pseudosceptical approach you espouse. And your failure to be able to distinguish between aliens destroying the White House and someone writing a letter amply displays this as well. You may well doubt whether aliens destroyed the White House, but you have started doubting whether there is a White House, or whether the house is truly white, or whether the white thing is a house. This is what is unreasonable, belligerent and disruptive.Davkal 13:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Davkal, You seem to believe that I said things that I did not. Now you (apparently) accuse me of being "unreasonable, belligerent and disruptive" based on things that I did not, in fact, say. Perhaps you'd like to reconsider that - or present some evidence for it - considering where we are. SheffieldSteel 13:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I did say all of these things and I stand by them. I say that partly concocting a ludicrous conspiracy theory about MacRae (deliberately) falsifying his credentials by assuming the identity of a man who never worked for NASA and who is many years his junior in order to pretend he worked for NASA even though the many sources we have for this are all independent of MacRae is unreasonable, belligerent and disruptive.Davkal 13:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment : Would oppose unreasonable scientific skepticism, but reasonable scientific skepticism is better. Though, deliberate skepticism is not objective; it is a attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity. Read this as a POV. Also, some that claim "scepticism" are not adhering to it's foundations. Objectivity and a NPOV should suffice. J. D. Redding

I think people are getting caught up in semantics. I would encourage people to check out the wikipedia article on skepticism, especially with regards to its meaning in philosophy and science. Also consider scientific skepticism. "Skeptical" is not an insult, but instead a descriptive term. Antelan 06:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I have read the articles and agree that 'Skeptical' is not an insult. It is a POV, though, and non-NPOV. J. D. Redding 18:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Where's the semantics? "claims can only be substantiated by controlled experiment using the scientific method, and any other form of verification must be presented as inconclusive" You can only really control an experiment in the lab, or under such tight conditions that it usually interferes with the subject being studied. This proposal is specifically designed to de-legitimize fieldwork, and to bias reporting (what we should do), with skepticism (which is the business only of our sources).

Yes, "skeptical" is not an insult, and agree with Reddi, it is a POV. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 18:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Skepticism is the scientific approach to everything. It is the opposite of belief, in that respect. You can either believe and then challenge others to shake your belief, or you can be sceptical and challenge your own understanding. Guy (Help!) 08:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The scientific approach is the scientific method. Skepticism is a sceptical POV and challenges all understandings. It is the opposite of any belief, in that respect. You can take an objective look at the facts or you can challenge all belief. J. D. Redding 09:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Precisely because skepticism "is the opposite of any belief", it is the correct approach for an encyclopedia to take when dealing with subjects where multiple contradictory beliefs compete for acceptance. The sceptical approach is to question and evaluate each and every belief before accepting it. That is just about as neutral as one can be. SheffieldSteel 13:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The "the opposite of any belief" (aka., the stance of disbelief) is a POV. That is not objectivity (and Objective philosophically and Objective scientifically .. and the correct approach for an encyclopedia and, per NPOV, Misplaced Pages). Skepticism is subjectivity. To be as neutral as one can be, one can list data and facts. J. D. Redding 14:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

We are not here to present a POV. Any POV. Period. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with what Martinphi said above. All content at Misplaced Pages comes from a point of view, a neutral point of view is in fact a point of view, the only question when dealing with points of view is whether they are neutral. "The sky is blue" is a neutral statement. Someone might disagree, but it is an uncontroversial statement. Skepticism isn't always uncontroversial. Neither is pro-paranormal. Objectivity might be seen as neutral, or uncontroversial, but who are we kidding? Some editors do not edit objectively and skeptical doesn't exactly equate to objective. Objective can be seen as approaching a subject without predisposition. Skepticism is approaching a subject predisposed to doubt. It's not always a neutral stance. There's a difference between "let's see where this goes" and "prove it to me".

My favorite skeptic's T-shirt reads: "I doubt it." I like the T-shirt, but that's not objective or neutral.

--Nealparr 03:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Nealparr has read the article. One could think of it this way: An atom has no charge. Not because it isn't composed of charged particles, but because the charges balance out. That's neutrality. It's a POV, and it's a neutral POV, and it has no POV. Nealparr's right. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 04:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Appropriate handling of epistemological status

43) It is the responsibility of editors to appropriately handle any question regarding the epistemological status of a subject, that is questions of whether something exists, is hypothesized to exist, general scientific consensus, etc. The goal is not arrival at the correct conclusion, but adequate treatment of any controversy. In the case of the paranormal, both the general scientific skepticism and the intense popular interest are notable. Fred Bauder 21:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 20:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. --Nealparr 09:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This, I assume, does not mean that supporting opinion or evidence about the paranormal subject is not notable. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed. Wooyi 01:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Fred, both the general scientific skepticism and the intense popular interest are notable. Eloquently put. I think something similar is included in the Pseudoscience RFAR. Guy (Help!) 08:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Neutral point of view

44) Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, contemplates fair coverage of all significant points of view regarding a subject.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Back to basics Fred Bauder 22:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed. --Nealparr 09:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:34, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes. Fair, and giving due weight, and objective (i.e. neutral point of view, not sympathetic point of view). We are not here to promote fringe theories, only to document them. Guy (Help!) 08:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: all significant points? Does this include scientific and popular culture? J. D. Redding 09:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes Fred Bauder 14:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree then. J. D. Redding 22:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Science and Pseudoscience

45) Science is defined as systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried out in order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied. Pseudoscience is defined as a system of methods, theories, etc. that presumes without warrant to have a scientific basis or application. Indicators of pseudoscience include the use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims, the over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, has a lack of openness to testing by other experts, a lack of progress, and the personalization of issues.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I don't think this fits in here particularly well. Properly conducted, studies of paranormal phenomena are as scientific as any other science. Our problem is that we have articles about alleged phenomena which are not interesting enough to the scientific community that there are any serious inquiries, thus we have no countervailing data. Fred Bauder 14:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agree in theory. Disagree in practice. The problem is definitions within definitions within definitions. If we assume pseudoscience is that which claims to be scientific, but really isn't (no problem with that), we have to define science. We have to demarcate it. This proposal does that. It demarcates science. The problem is that's something Misplaced Pages hasn't done (see Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience and WP:FRINGE) and something Misplaced Pages shouldn't do (see WP:NPOV).

--Nealparr 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Then I will edit this to include what was considered a science in my lecture.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the alteration, but unfortunately it doesn't change my disagreement with the proposal. If Misplaced Pages chose the stance that only what is defined here (or anywhere) as science is science, then it is committing the non-neutral faux pas of declaring soft sciences or social sciences as unscientific. Misplaced Pages can't (or rather shouldn't) make a ruling on this in the interest of neutrality. There's a substantial portion of people out there that don't believe the hard sciences are the only science. These matters can be discussed in articles, of course, but Misplaced Pages itself can't take a stance on it if they want to remain neutral. Editors can define science and pseudoscience in articles neutrally, but Misplaced Pages as a neutral entity can't. Hopefully I'm explaining this clearly. Sometimes I don't : )

--Nealparr 09:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The soft sciences and social sciences would have observation, study, and experimentation, although not all of them. Knowledge can be derived from observation and study in history and geography, and from the article on "soft science", certainly experimentation and observation takes place.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, I agree in theory. In practice, it's soft sciences that end up on lists of pseudosciences here and elsewhere because they don't meet the criteria of hard sciences. It's the "in practice" where things start to break down. Parapsychology, for example, involves observation, study, and experimentation. If we go with that definition, it's a science. Still, many consider it a pseudoscience, largely due to the indicators of pseudoscience you spelled out. The problem in this particular case is that we've defined science broadly using objective terms: observation, study, experimentation. But then we throw that definition out and get really subjective: untestable claims, confirmation, lack of openness, personalization. Now we have a whole new definition that doesn't look much like the original because all of the latter is more a matter of opinion. It's not just parapsychology. Anthropological studies conducted "in the wild", are ruled out by these pseudoscience guidelines although it's often accepted as broad science. There's many more examples from the soft sciences camp that I won't bother to fill up here. All of these things can be discussed in the articles themselves. The point is, that there is disagreement on the fine lines of science, and in the interest of neutrality, Misplaced Pages itself can't unblur them. Editors can in the articles, but Misplaced Pages can't itself.

--Nealparr 10:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed: This definition is based off of lectures I attended in a course concerning pseudoscience in archaeology this past semester. If need be, I may be able to send the Arbitration Committee the presentation on this particular lecture.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Support. I know there is a cite for this somewhere in Ryulong's shipping boxes, but even without that cite the definition is, I think, uncontentious. Guy (Help!) 08:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Does a classification need all these? or just one of these? If it is all, then I think it would be good and I would agree. If it is parsed, then this would be way too general; Some methods, theories, etc. held today were in the history of science characterized by facets of this (due to commercialization of the technology, desire to publish 1st, etc. ...) J. D. Redding

A pseudoscience would hold any of these properties. Several current scientific theories have been pseudoscientific and several past scientific theories are now considered pseudoscientific. What concerns this case is what is considered as such now. The study of the paranormal and electronic voice phenomenon is considered pseudoscientific by these characteristics now. If, in 50 years, EVP no longer has any of these qualities and has the scientific method applied to it, then it would no longer be considered a pseudoscience.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Way too general, since it was stated that "any" of these properties can be used to label concepts. This would be dealt out in a piecemeal fashion and can be used as a POV weapon. JIMO. J. D. Redding 09:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I apologize, but it's been 4 months since the initial lecture on the subject. My lecture notes list the "use of vague claims" etc items as "Indicators of Pseudoscience." Those coupled with the other definition would identify ideas, theories, etc. as pseudoscientific. I have slightly reworded the definition to mirror this fact.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

No need to apologize ... I think in bulk/totality, this is a generally good idea ... just not in a pick and choose application. J. D. Redding 09:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I have added a basic definition of science such that it could be compared with pseudoscience.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Not all research is open. Some research is closed and proprietary (primarily for commercialization, but for other reason too). J. D. Redding 09:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not see how "open" or "closed" research is related to the basic definition of "science" that I have put forward.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

How? "lack of openness to testing by other experts". J. D. Redding 09:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that was referring to "pseudoscience." I believe this referred to the inability to repeat the procedure or expected results. I cannot recall any specific examples in the course (it was a focus on pseudoscientific aspects in archaeology), but I will review what notes I do have concerning this portion of the definition of pseudoscience.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Off hand, the "closed" testing of Steorn comes to mind. There probably are alot more examples though (current and historical ...) ... J. D. Redding

Subjects of no or limited scientific interest

46) In the case of subjects where there is extensive popular interest but no reliable scientific evaluations it is permissible to include a statement such as, "There has been no scientific investigation of this event, or phenomena." even if there is no reliable source stating that fact.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This puts it plainly enough. Perhaps scientists are missing an important lead, perhaps they are simply ignoring nonsense. Proposed Fred Bauder 14:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Strong disagree. I foresee "There has been no scientific investigation of this event, or phenomena" being plastered on every parapsychology related article directly after this finding because some editors swear by the idea that parapsychology is unreliable. Over 30 years of investigation, arguably characterized as scientific, reduced to the blurb "there has been no scientific investigation". WP:FRINGE suggests that fringe science, though low on the weight scale, still deserves mention. We might not consider it reliable, but it would be contrary to "no scientific investigation". "Reliable" scientific evaluation is also a matter of opinion. I think the research at PEAR is a pretty reliable demonstration of statistical anomalies (whether it's paranormal or not), other editors obviously don't.

--Nealparr 22:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. For exactly the same reasons as Nealparr. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. In many cases, it is unrealistic to expect there to be a source stating that there has been no visible interest among working scientists in investigating the veracity of some bit of popular culture. Simões (/_contribs) 18:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

See now I have to say "Strong disagree" because of how this proposal is interpreted, and worded. For over 30 years there has been research into some paranormal phenomena. It's not just statistics. Parapsychologists rigged rooms with sensitive sensors and told people to astral project there, while the scientists measured any atmospheric changes. These tests yielded no interesting results, but you can't say they didn't happen. They followed every rule of the scientific method, didn't prove anything except that the experiment doesn't show any changes, but that's science. It's not all positive results. Did mainstream science have anything to say about it? Yes. We don't have an absence of sources. There's no lack of evaluation. Parapsychological work is often analyzed, evaulated, and criticized. Sources reflect that. You can't say: "There has been no scientific investigation of this event, or phenomena." You can say: "There has been no scientific investigation yielding results that have been accepted as valid evidence of paranormal phenomena." That's neutrally worded.

--Nealparr 19:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

comment. I think Neal has a very good point there. It is not that no scientific studies have been done, it is that no scientific studies have yielded verifyable positive results. Bubba73 (talk), 19:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I would change that to "accepted" positive results, but yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you add "accepted" to it, even parapsychologists would agree.

--Nealparr 20:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Generally considered pseudoscience

47) Theories which have a following, such as various manifestations of the paranormal, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed Fred Bauder 15:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I need an explanation of this. What kind of sourcing would be necessary to claim a general scientific consensus? For instance, there is a scientific consensus that Astrology is pseudoscience. You can cite that quite well. But there is none (and people have tried very hard to find a good source) for parapsychology. The nearest I know of right now is this, but I think there is also one which actually mentions the word "parapsychology," though in a context where it seems that it is not talking about academic parapsychology. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like hair-splitting to me. --ScienceApologist 23:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrators. I'd like to emphasize that ScienceApologist thinks a question about good sourcing is "hair splitting." Many of the skeptics think they do not have to source their POVs about the paranormal, and that even parapsychology qualifies as "obvious pseudoscience" in the same category as Time Cube. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 23:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

When sourcing is used to obfuscate, as is so often the case when you get involved, a pseudoskeptical acceptance of the paranormal gets writ large in our articles. Misplaced Pages is a neutral encyclopedia, not an accomodating encyclopedia. You are basically arguing that because the term "parapsychology" isn't used by most commentators, these commentators must not realize that there is a difference between it and other forms of paranormal research, ghostbusting, and the like. Except, there is no critical source that shows a distinction between these endeavors: the only people who see them as different are those who are active in the paranormal community such as yourself. Hair-splitting is exactly what you are doing. --ScienceApologist 23:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not laughing at you- I'm laughing with me. "Sourcing is used to obfuscate." In other words, I have good sources which contradict your POV.

I have very good sources and reasons which I can cite that parapsychology is not a pseudoscience (whether or not its subject exists). And further, if you were to read skeptic James Alcock, he puts parapsychologists in the "scientific camp." In other words, there are good critical sources which draw a distinction. Randi, also, says parapsychology is a scientific field, and Ray Hyman also indicates as much. Critics all. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 00:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Please also note the typical denial of existence where SA says "there is no source". Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 00:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Clear sourcing, attribution of statements, and neutral reporting, as I've proposed here solves all of these issues you guys are talking about.

--Nealparr 00:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with adequate sourcing (see my -- I believe reasonable -- proposal ). This issue has come up on the (still disputed) List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts and its talk page.

--Nealparr 23:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Tertiary source

48)Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source and relies most heavily on secondary sources. Primary sources need to be evaluated in light of their reliability. See WP:FRINGE and WP:REDFLAG.

Comment by Arbitrators:

With a few exceptions we use secondary sources. Any source should be evaluated regarding its reliability. Fred Bauder 21:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 20:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Is there an example of how this is relevant?

--Nealparr 02:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agree. But that is already in a policy. Bubba73 (talk), 20:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOR#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. Bubba73 (talk), 21:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I know, but User:Reddi has been arguing against it obliquely and directly. --ScienceApologist 21:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Primary sources are needed and are usually superior to secondary sources. Historical articles need primary sources to be of any value and rely on them most heavily. J. D. Redding 22:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: This is just an attempt to avoid research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary sources. This practice is strongly encouraged, contrary to the hopes of ScienceApologist. All articles on Misplaced Pages should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. J. D. Redding

Quite clearly, as shown by three different quotations from three different parts of Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies, this is more than just an attempt to avoid research. You have a problem in uncritically using primary source documents as a source for your edits at Misplaced Pages. It's as if you never developed a baloney detector. Luckily, Misplaced Pages has some built in for you to use. --22:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

JS, please don't try to cite Carl Sagan ... I know about Sagan ... doubled that article way back. There is a need to stop the POV pushing (aka, the so-called "baloney detector").

Primary sources are essential to good research. Secondary sources should be also be used, but any scholar worth thier salt would try to get the primary sources, if possible.

Also, please try not to make this personal, JS, as you have been told time and time again. J. D. Redding 23:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed findings of fact

Locus of dispute

1) The locus of the dispute is a series of articles centering on Parapsychology (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and in particular Electronic voice phenomenon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and their talk pages, where the disputes which precipitated this arbitration has its roots.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Accept. FloNight 23:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

The EVP article is not under the aegis of parapsychology, and is a separate and much less concrete case. The dispute which precipitated this arbitration was on the List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts page. This would not be a correct finding of fact. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 21:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts precipitated this arbitration. While certainly contentious, it is not the singular reason for this dispute. The path to this arbitration can clearly be seen on the EVP Talk page Talk:Electronic_voice_phenomenon#Recent_edits_from_Davkal, in the failed mediation, Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-03-13_Electronic_Voice_Phenomenon, and in the discussions of proposed arbitration,Talk:Electronic_voice_phenomenon#Arbitration_is_the_next_step. The roots of this dispute are also well-documented in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Martinphi -- LuckyLouie 22:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I was assuming it grew out of my own RfC, which started there. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 23:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, conditional on tweaking it to "parapsychology and paranormal topics". This case stems from many articles - I believe all would be described as paranormal but there has been debate as to whether some fall under parapsychology, such as crop circle, dowsing, or EVP. List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts is only one of many articles that led to both this and the earlier user RfC. --Minderbinder 12:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where it started, but it includes several articles at present.--Nealparr 22:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Guy (Help!) 11:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Partially agreed with reservation, EVP is not parapsychology, rather they are separate topics converged in this dispute. Wooyi 19:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Parapsychology as a science

2) The definition of parapsychology as scientific, asserted by those editors supporting parapsychology, is problematic. The mainstream largely ignores parapsychology, which has little representational in the popular and influential scientific journals. Because it is largely ignored, it is reasonable to state that parapsychology it is not generally considered a true scientific displine, and including it in category:science is likely to give undue weight. Two other categories exist which may be appropriate: category:fringe science and category:pseudoscience.

Regardless, the decision as to which category an article should be laced in should be taken on a case-by-case basis and should be subject to discussion and consensus, if necessary throguh article request for comment, rather than being the subject of edit warring.

Comment by Arbitrators:

As there are both scientific studies and pseudoscientic assertions articles may belong in both categories. Adding a category to an article is an aid to the reader not a definitive conclusion. We cannot say whether a particular reader is better served by links to scientific studies or links to more fantastic adventures of the mind. Fred Bauder 23:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment: The definition of parapsychology as unscientific or pseudoscience is equally problematic. Sourcing shows that while parapsychology is a frequently deprecated, highly marginalized, or possibly failed science, those who do take the time to comment on parapsychology do refer to it as a science. I agree that including it in category:science is likely to give undue weight, and I support inclusion in category:fringe science. I reject inclusion in category:pseudoscience or labeling as pseudoscience without appropriate sourcing that is:

• 1) Attributable and clearly stating who is making the claim
• 2) Clearly says "pseudoscience" as opposed to failed or deprecated science or something else
• 3) Accurately reflects the statement being made. For example if there is a statement that parapsychology is viewed as pseudoscience by mainstream science, versus marginalized or failed science, the source should clearly state that (I haven't seen one that does).

While there are many sources that explore the idea that it is pseudoscience, there are few to none that come from a mainstream scientific source and outright calls it pseudoscience.

Sorry, to the actual proposal: I don't think it is unreasonable to make an attributed sourced statement calling it science. I likewise don't find it reasonable to state that parapsychology is not generally considered a true scientific displine without an attributed source to that effect. Even the Nature article considers it a deprecated or failed science.

--Nealparr 21:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The Mainstream does not "ignore" parapsychology. Parapsychology is a term used to describe the scientific study of Psi etc. Therefore any and all research conducted by the scientific mainstream will automatically be classified as being Parapsychology regardless of who conducted the research. It is also not published in mainstream journals for the same reason that mainstream scientific papers are not published in woman's magazines. It's not part of their purpose in being to do so. - perfectblue 09:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You cannot have it both ways. Science is discussed in the scientific journals. If something is not discussed in the scientific journals it is not science. It may have the trappings of science or ostensibly try to conform to the scientific method, but it is not possible for a neutral source like Misplaced Pages to label a subject with zero presence in the scientific journals to be scientific. --ScienceApologist 09:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

A serious twisting of words. Basic commercial interests dictate that most publication sell to a select audience and primarily contain the articles that are likely to interest that audience. Do you honestly think that your average science journal reader would be interested in reading about spooks and spec? Parapsychology is a specialist area discussed in specialist journal. Where do you think the debunkers get published? - perfectblue 18:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

A nice opinion, but one that defies the principles of verifiability and reliability. We don't care why the paranormal is excluded from science: it simply is excluded from science. Misplaced Pages has an obligation to report this. -ScienceApologist 18:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Guy (Help!) 11:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Where did you get such a parochial view of science? Only a small portion of "science" conforms to the scientific method, my friend, in reality; look at the facts--not to your vain wish to reform the universe of men's thinking. That kind of reform is certainly out-of-bounds in Misplaced Pages activities. And your assertion of the necessary condition of scientific method for "science" certainly violates the consensus of Misplaced Pages editors; put it to Misplaced Pages-wide vote; I challenge you. By application of the definition in any English dictionary, parapsychology is a "science" by being concerned with the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of the phenomena it finds of interest. None of the narrow concerns of the scientific method are required for parapsychology to be a science. Look at the facts of life, my friend. --Rednblu 05:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the precise defintion of Science and whether or not one is Poppering or a Lakatosian(presuming that is a word) or whatever, it is clear that the vast majority of scientists do not consider parapsychology as a science. JoshuaZ 00:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Paraphrased joke:

Girl: "You're the worst guy in the entire world."

Guy: "Now that's just silly. Do you know every guy in the entire world?"

How can the vast majority of scientists not consider parapsychology a science when the actual vast majority of scientists aren't the least bit aware of what goes on in parapsychology? Going even further, how can the vast majority of scientists not consider parapsychology a science when the much smaller group of people who are actually aware of what goes on in parapsychology are themselves split on the issue. Because even in that group of critics, there's differing opinions of whether it's a pseudoscience, failed science, or merely a flawed science. Parapsychology as a science should completely be treated as something likely to have some controversy surrounding it.

--Nealparr 05:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Two problems. Whether it is considered a "pseudoscience, failed science, or merely a flawed science" isn't relevant to the larger point, that they agree it is not science. Furthermore, the critique of not knowing enough about the topic essentially amounts to OR- it is not Misplaced Pages's job to criticize whether experts in a field are forming their opinions correctly or such. What is relevant is what they actually think, and the opinion of the vast majority of scientists seems pretty clear. (My personal opinion is that parapsychology in some limited forms is scientific, but that's irrelevant). JoshuaZ 05:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I was commenting on what you said, not what Misplaced Pages says. Misplaced Pages should report on the discussion per Nature's treatment of the subject where opinion is divided . But let me explain why the distinction of "pseudoscience, failed science, or merely a flawed science" is actually important. It's because of the RfA on pseudoscience. Someone is going to come to this RfA and see (hopefully not) a ruling that "Parapsychology is not a science". They're going to take that and couple it with the pseudoscience ruling and come to all sorts of unsubstantiated conclusions. If not science, as some people think it is, it's a pseudoscience, right? That's going to get plastered on every parapsychology article in Misplaced Pages as Misplaced Pages's official stance. Then through the GNUFDL, that statement is going to be further plastered all over the web becoming a pseudo-Wiki-fact, when the only source for it ever is this RfA. The people actually involved in the discussion might scratch their heads wondering when Misplaced Pages decided for them. This has already happened through the List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts where parapsychology sat without proper sourcing as a pseudoscience according to mainstream science. That document (in a very short time) has already been mirrored to several locations . I appreciate your opinion that the majority of scientists "agree it is not science," but we're having trouble finding sources to that effect. Forget knowing what goes on in parapsychology, I have a hard time believing (OR) that the majority of scientists even think about parapsychology enough to have an opinion on it. If it's so clear, why can't we find better sources? I mean, that's a bold statement, majority versus some.

--Nealparr 07:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Where in Nature is there evidence of divided opinions? Simões (/_contribs) 16:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Good question! I looked at the link in question. It says,"Even in other areas of parapsychology, opinion is divided on the lab's results". Clearly a reference to opinion within certain areas of parapsychology. Further down the list I see a reference to "what is currently dismissed as nonscience into science: astrology, acupuncture, parapsychology and so on." - LuckyLouie 16:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, there's also: "Rupert Sheldrake, a former biochemist and plant physiologist at the University of Cambridge who has taken up parapsychology, argued in its favour. And most of the 200-strong audience seemed to agree with him."

I did say that there are some sources that say nonscience, and even pseudoscience (there's one of those in the list as well). The question is whether the source supports the claim. If the claim is just that parapsychology is sometimes seen as nonscience, this is great source for that. But when the claim is that the "majority of scientists" feel parapsychology is nonscience, that's not supported by this source. It's one of those logic leaps. As a snippet, we have no idea what the rest of the article is talking about. It could be talking about just the opinion of hard core scientists for all we know, and be talking about how those guys dismiss it. It does say "may lead to incorporation of what is currently dismissed as nonscience into science" and was written ten years ago. Did it get incorporated? There's a lot of missing information. A quote from Nature saying "most scientists feel that parapsychology is a nonscience" would be ideal to support a hard-stance claim.

--Nealparr 18:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

That was a public debate. Later in the article we receive an opinion from one of the audience members:

For Ann Blaber, who works in children's music and was undecided on the subject, Sheldrake was the more convincing. "You can't just dismiss all the evidence for telepathy out of hand," she said.

So again, where in Nature is there an instance of divided opinions? Simões (/_contribs) 18:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Presenting one person's qualifications as a music teacher as representative of all who were in attendance is pretty strawman. A number of scientists are members of the Royal Society of Arts who put on the event. Sheldrake has credentials as a scientist, even if his parapsychological work is criticized. The question isn't whether the support for parapsychology is great. I never made that claim -- the only claim I make resembling that is that there's no sources that show a majority of scientists (not science, but the actual scientists) feel one way or the other about parapsychology. The question that was posed is whether there is a division of opinions, and whether this is shown in Nature. The Royal Society of Arts and Sheldrake himself, though both are open to criticism, show clearly that there is a division, regardless of the proportions (I address the proportions below).

--Nealparr 19:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, that was a debate open to the public. It wasn't a conference. Sheldrake convinced 200 locals that a New York woman has a telepathic bond with her parrot. As for the article on the PEAR Lab's closure, you just pointed out that parapsychologists are divided in opinion on the Lab's experimental results.

This is starting to resemble the Discovery Institute's Teach the Controversy strategy, in which the DI endeavored to convince the public that scientists really do disagree about basic evolutionary history. Simões (/_contribs) 20:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, that's even more strawman. First I never said anything about the PEAR article. I'm fully aware that's a dispute over the results. Strawman 1. Then we toss a strawman that it's like the Teach the Controversy? That's an attempt to get a ultra-fringe view into schools to try and elevate it to something that should seriously be considered by students all across America. All I'm talking about is putting an accurate description of the historical debate over parapsychology's status inside the parapsychology article itself. Strawman 2. All I said is that Nature covered that there is more than one opinion on parapsychology. Nature covered it. If it wasn't notable, like some preacher in Central Park talking about the end of the world, Nature wouldn't have covered it. Dismissing it as a public gathering that had nothing to do with science is Strawman 3.

--Nealparr 20:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

A straw man argument is the act of presenting another person's argument in a way that it makes it easier to attack. My claiming that your arguments resemble Teach the Controversy's is an accusation against them, not a presentation of them. My dismissing a debate as insignificant isn't a presentation of your arguments, either. And what "historical debate" are you talking about? Are you saying the one mentioned in the single column news story in Nature is historical? They mentioned the existence of a single academic and a lay audience who believe in parapsychology. Mainstream journals mention the same sort of thing about intelligent design. Notability isn't evidence of divided opinion. Simões (/_contribs) 00:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, I'm using straw man correctly. By saying it resembles Teach the Controversy, it's easier to dismiss the argument. TtC is full of objectionable material. It's ultra-fringe, it's an agenda to sneak religion into schools, I can go on and on because I don't support it either. Schools are under no obligation to treat fringe views neutrally. Misplaced Pages wants to. I'm outlining how that could be done. If you seriously think that is TtC, and it's not just a straw man argument, I'd have to wonder where you're coming from on this. Nature doesn't mention just one academic. There's eight pages in that link dating back to the 1950s representing a number of academics. In their March 2007 article, "The lab that asked the wrong questions," they wrote:

"The status of paranormal research in the United States is now at an all-time low, after a relative surge of interest in the 1970s. Money continues to pour from philanthropic sources to private institutions, but any chance of credibility depends on ties with universities, and only a trickle of research now persists in university labs."

Now, someone already quoted that part, but they left out the very next line:

"Elsewhere the field is livelier. Britain is a lead player, with privately funded labs at the universities of Edinburgh, Northampton and Liverpool Hope, among others."

Maybe I'm missing something, but if Nature talks about it every now and then, if Alcock talks about it, if Randi talks about it, if Hyman talks about it, if CSI talks about it, then why the heck shouldn't Misplaced Pages talk about it? If you seriously think that there's only one view and that anything else resembles TtC, maybe I'm in the wrong place after all.

--Nealparr 03:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Parapsychology being classified as "outside science" in mainstream university curriculum such as appears to support the Duck_Test conclusion that it is not a legitimate science. I doubt that this prof is an isolated radical alone in his thinking, but I could be wrong. - LuckyLouie 18:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's the thing. If Misplaced Pages is to present all notable views on a subject, the question of whether parapsychology is a science is notable. Obviously it's notable and isn't obvious if everyone feels the need to discuss it, and go so far as to point out that it isn't science. If it's obvious it isn't, there'd be no need for discussion or correction. Misplaced Pages shouldn't say parapsychology is a nonscience (or science). Instead it should present the notable views according to weight. "Outsider" in the link above refers to the outside edge, or fringe, rather than actually "outside", but let's take is an example anyway. That's a source and it has a weight. It's more mainstream, so the weight is higher than fringe. Above that source would be a source from Nature. Below that source (but still relevant) is that of parapsychologists themselves. In a section maybe called "Is parapsychology a science?" we should present the notable ideas per Misplaced Pages guidelines, giving greater weight to mainstream science. To say there's only one view is not only incorrect, it leaves a gap in information that someone might actually be looking for on Misplaced Pages. If I were writing a research paper on parapsychology and wanted to use Misplaced Pages as a source, I'd like to know there's been some discussion about whether or not it is a science. If I were writing that paper and found some sources outside Misplaced Pages saying science, and some other sources saying nonscience, and Misplaced Pages says instead here's the history of the debate, Misplaced Pages is the more helpful of the three.

--Nealparr 19:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to come back to this because I finally got a chance to read the entire article from the February 2007 issue of Nature. The question was, "Where in Nature is there evidence of divided opinions?" The actual wording in this article was:

"Many scientists think the lab's work was pointless at best. But the closure highlights a long-running question: how permissive should science be of research that doesn't fit a standard theoretical framework, if the methods used are scientific?"

Later on it says,

"In the end, the decision whether to pursue a tiny apparent effect or put it down to statistical flaws is a subjective one. "It raises the issue of where you draw the line," says sceptic Chris French, an 'anomalistic psychologist' at Goldsmiths, University of London, who tries to explain what seem to be paranormal experiences in straightforward psychological terms. French thinks that even though the chances of a real effect being discovered are low, the implications of a positive result would be so interesting that work such as Jahn's is worth pursuing.

"Many scientists disagree. Besides being a waste of time, such work is unscientific, they argue, because no attempt is ever made to offer a physical explanation for the effect. Park says the PEAR lab "threatened the reputation" of both Princeton and the wider community. He sees the persistence of such labs as an unfortunate side effect of science's openness to new questions. "The surprising thing is that it doesn't happen more often," he says.

"William Happer, a prominent physicist at Princeton, takes the middle ground. He believes the scientific community should be open to research that asks any question, however unlikely, but that if experiments don't produce conclusive results after a reasonable time, researchers should move on. "I don't know why this took up a whole lifetime," he says."

Nature, in this article, presented three perspectives.

--Nealparr 07:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Status of paranormal research

3) "The status of paranormal research in the United States is now at an all-time low, after a relative surge of interest in the 1970s. Money continues to pour from philanthropic sources to private institutions, but any chance of credibility depends on ties with universities, and only a trickle of research now persists in university labs." (Nature, Feb 2007).

In some cases there may be a lack of coverage of a subject in the journals because it is an emergent field, or because thought leaders have yet to address a subject. This is not the case with parapsychology and the paranormal, which has been subject to a steadily decreasing level of scientific inquiry since the earliest days of science. Paranormal phenomena have gone from being a focus of metaphysical debate among thought leaders, through a period of investigation by parts of the scientific community in the 1960s and 1970s, to a position now where explanations for esoteric phenomena are sought in emergent mathematical and physical fields rather than through parapsychology. Understanding of what can be explained by natural law has moved forward through developments in technologies for measurement and analysis, as well as advances in mathematical and physical modelling techniques, and these advances have made the scientific community less likely to seek answers outside of natural law.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Totally too much for a finding of fact, although the Nature quote is useful. Fred Bauder 23:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment: I completely support representing scientific paranormal research as:

• 1) Pseudoscience when sourced and attributed to a group saying it. Pejorative terms require sourcing in all cases. If not currently, they should, especially when there is a notable question of whether parapsychology (one form of paranormal research) is pseudoscience.
• 2) Frequently deprecated and marginalized. This can be achieved through loose sourcing because it's more apparent.

I reject that non-scientific research on paranormal topics is marginalized. While not scientific, ghost hunting is a popular pastime and the collection of paranormal stories (anecdotal research) is equally if not more popular. In short, pop-paranormal culture and research, while not scientific, is by no means marginalized. In fact, a recent Gallup Poll shows that 3/4 of Americans have paranormal beliefs. Another study showed that 2/3 of scientists in general believe in a supernatural God, despite there being no scientific support for a God. These two studies themselves qualify as paranormal research. We should qualify paranormal research in this proposal as referring to supposedly scientific research and apply 1 and 2 from above.

--Nealparr 21:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

We are dealing with 3 terms here. "Paranormal", "Parapsychology" and "Pseudoscience". We must be careful not to confuse them. While there is often some overlap the terms should not be seen as merely being alternative wordings of the same thing. For example, Parapsychology mainly covers Psi , but also covers the psychological aspects of certain events, which is fully scientific (basic regular accepted psychology applied to somebody claiming to have had a paranormal experience), but it does not cover things like crop circles. Equally, Pseudoscience might cover crop circles, but it wouldn't cover Hairy hands, which is paranormal, but has nothing to do with pseudoscience or parapsychology. - perfectblue 15:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. May be irreelvant as strictly a content issue, but proposed to address the claim made in some other areas that emergent disciplines will be documented Real Soon Now. Here, we have had around four decades of investigation by small groups here and there, and the trend appears to be to shut that down, not to build it up. Now we have string theory and chaos theory we no longer seem to have the same perceived need for an explanation outside of the laws of nature. Guy (Help!) 11:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Only in the US, in Europe things are still going strong. They are also diversifying away from concepts such as remote viewing and things that the CIA was interested in using against the Russians and are directing more towards New age beliefs. - perfectblue 15:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support: Is there a source for the robust state of paranormal research in Europe? Guy, nicely sourced. MastCell 16:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree--Bubba73 (talk), 18:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Object irrelevant, and may be inaccurate since its foundation is solely built upon a single article. Wooyi 21:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It may not be relevant, but the source in question is highly reliable so it being based on a single article does not seem to be an issue. JoshuaZ 00:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree, although my agreement is unnecessary because the scientists have already explained the consensus. Antelan 20:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Davkal

4) Per as a representative edit, User:Davkal appears to equate his own biases with neutrality, ascribing base motives to those who disagree with him and failing to acknowledge any validity in opposing viewpoints. Admins who support other editors do so because they are "biased" and because edits support their own POV. This is uncivil, a failure to assume good faith, and may indicate a level of emotional investment in the subject which is not conducive to neutrality.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Evidence cited does not support the conclusion. Fred Bauder 23:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Are we arbitrating the Paranormal, or putting Davkal on trial? These are separate issues and should be treated as such. - perfectblue 12:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration is about editor conduct. The principles above are principles which underpin how Misplaced Pages works, and which are directly relevant to the areas in which the disputed conduct occurs, but the main thrust of the case is and will be about the conduct of editors. Arbcom does not rule on content disputes. Guy (Help!) 13:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

BUT.... many of the complaints over Davkal are problems WITH Davkal. Yes, he was editing a paranormal article at the time, but he would probably have done similar regardless of the topic. Invite him over to "Gun control" and you'd have probably seen the same pattern emerging. Judgment should be kept separate. - perfectblue 14:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree that Davkal, Martinphi, and probably some other editors as well have made edits that pushed POV and labled them "fixing POV". There's no question that they erroneously think that presenting fringe views over mainstream ones is "neutral". --Minderbinder 12:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

1) Often, no mainstream views exist 2) Often belief exists separate from science, in which case it needs to be recorded. - perfectblue 14:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

"If proper attribution cannot be found among reliable sources of an idea's standing, it should be assumed that the idea has not received consideration or acceptance" In cases where a fringe topic hasn't been covered by the mainstream, Davkal and Martinphi have insisted on presenting the topic as if it exists and is generally accepted, including putting undue weight on minority theories. If no mainstream view exists, then a topic hasn't been accepted by the mainstream and that should be clear from reading the article - the mainstream has no obligation to disprove every obscure theory. And in this case, there's a connection between editor behaviour and content since the POV editing and other disruption has been defended by reinterpretations of NPOV and other wikipedia policy. --Minderbinder 14:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Except skeptical users simply dispute the reliability of any non-skeptical source regardless any other factors. "If no mainstream view exists, then a topic hasn't been accepted by the mainstream" by definition, anything that falls under parapsychology automatically falls outside of the mainstream, regardless of the veracity of the techniques used the academic qualifications of the people involved. put simply, quoting the lack of mainstream support is irrelevant as all support moves outside of the mainstream the moment that it is given. - perfectblue 09:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

A big problem is dubious sources represented as reliable. Among authors of paranormal works, there seems to be an extremely low standard of proof required for "factual" information. This source, cited in the EVP article contains many incongruities and totally unsupported claims asserted as factual. It's pretty typical of many paranormal sites who simply reprint heresay and present it as fact without the least effort toward independent third party verification. The problem is compounded when fringe journals that purport to be representative of scientific bodies are cited, such as here . That is a good example of a dubious source being wrongly cited as authoritative and reliable. Dubious sources can't be used to justify writing extraordinary paranormal claims as factual in an article introduction. - LuckyLouie 19:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Guy (Help!) 12:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but I think that there are others that are similar. Bubba73 (talk), 17:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Quite. As structured in this complaint, this is merely a case of the BIG gang accusing the little gang of being competitive by using its own POV gang methods. However, the petty bites and growls of either gang should be ignored here in the interest of working on the real problem. For example, it would be better if everyone looked for some means of reaching a consensus on how to fairly represent the Verifiable assertions of ReliableSources on the subject matter of Misplaced Pages pages of concern in this case. --Rednblu 05:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose no significant or compelling evidence has suggested the strong language of this proposal. I will support a rather cautionary and helpful one instead. Wooyi 21:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I've spent a lot of time away from some of these articles, in part because Davkal was so disruptive. JoshuaZ 00:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. If you said that Davkal has strong opinions or is rude sometimes, you might be correct, but this is highly overdone. Davkal is not a fully NPOV editor, but he is a knowledgable and useful one. Edits such as he makes are to be modified where necessary, but such editing is not intrinsically bad for Misplaced Pages if it can easily be modified to NPOV while retaining the gist of the edit. We need also to take account of the negative and agressive environment (not due to his actions) in which he was editing, and the fact that other editors were also uncivil, before passing judgment. This proposed finding is way overdone. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 04:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Parapsychology is not an obvious pseudoscience

5) Statements that parapsychology is not a science or that parapsychology is a pseudoscience should not be considered obvious. These statements should be attributed according to WP:ATT, which states in part, "Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material." Such statements are likely to be challenged considering there is an ongoing discussion outside Misplaced Pages on the topic. The source should also clearly match the statement being made and it should clearly show in the text of the article who is making the claim. This is especially true when applying the pejorative term "pseudoscience".

Comment by Arbitrators:

On the contrary, it is an obvious pseudoscience, although clearly even the most fantastic claims may be scientifically investigated. Fred Bauder 23:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. --Nealparr 20:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support if the proposal is referring to the "Obvious pseudoscience" label used by arbitratiors in the Pseudoscience RfArb. Parapsychology is certainly not on the same level as Time Cube, and labeling parapsychology a pseudoscience requires a source. Simões (/_contribs) 23:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

This one is just asking for sourcing versus something like "The sky is blue" which wouldn't need any. --Nealparr 00:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Right out of the book. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 04:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I don't dispute this, I think that category:fringe science is the best of the three likely candidates. Guy (Help!) 22:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support: Allegations of pseudoscience must be backed up with citations form individuals qualified to comment, and synthesis should be disallowed. - perfectblue 08:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This makes sense to me and set me to thinking more about this part of the puzzle. --Rednblu 21:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Wooyi 21:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Parapsychology is generally considered pseudoscience

6) As the subject material of parapsychology is generally outside the purview of science, like all investigations of the paranormal, it has been generally considered pseudoscience by third party evaluators.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed by ScienceApologist 15:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree. There's a jump here that may seem obvious, but it isn't sourced. That's WP:OR. All the sources that have been offered (I painstakenly read through every one), coming from a scientific body, characterize parapsychology as a questionable science. Non-notable sources say "pseudoscience", but I had to pour through notable CSI's search engine to find one or two that characterize it as pseudoscience there, and they're the skeptics. It is sometimes considered pseudoscience. It is generally considered a questionable, fringe, or frequently deprecated science. And, again, saying that parapsychology is pseudoscience because paranormal is requires a demarcation ruling. Astrology is listed as "generally considered pseudoscience" because no such demarcation issues exist there.

--Nealparr 16:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, I'd agree with that. It is a fringe subject, generally considered either irrelevant or disproven by the scientific mainstream and represented as pseudoscience by most notable sceptics. If the article said that, and categorised it as fringe science, I don't think I'd have a ny issues with that. Guy (Help!) 17:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Disagree: I strongly suggest that the author repeal this him/herself. In order to disprove a PSI claim you must carry out a scientific study into it. This IS Parapsychology. If we consider parapsychology to be a Pseudoscience, we will automatically devalue ALL skeptical research into PSI. For example, the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry investigation into the paranormal claims of Natasha Demkina is a classic parapsychology experiment that proved that she was unable to substantiate her claims. Is that a pseudoscientific experiment, too? - perfectblue 08:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

In order to disprove a PSI claim you must carry out a scientific study into it. This IS Parapsychology. --> The burden of proof does not lie with those trying to "disprove" a paranormal claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof is on the person making the paranormal claim, not those who are disputing it. While anyone is allowed to conduct whatever studies, skeptical studies are absolutely not required to declare a subject dubious. Parapsychology is necessarily then an endeavor that ignores this first step of observation/evidence before proceding directly to experimentation. Null results are not profound: they happen in situations where either the experimental set-up is lacking or the priors are not adequately accounted for. In the case of "PSI", since there is absolutely zero extraordinary evidence for the claims of the proponents, there is absolutely zero scientific basis for studying it. Thus, you see no articles in the standard journals regarding parapsychology. --ScienceApologist 09:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"The burden of proof is on the person making the paranormal claim", No, the burdon of proof is on the person making ANY CLAIM. If you make the hypothesis, you must prove it. For example, if you say that Psi does not exist, you must construct an experiment that could viably prove that it does exist, and then fail to find it. - perfectblue 08:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I'm completely into the philisophical discussions, but it's not like there's an absence of sources. Here there are sources and the sources say fringe, questionable, deprecated, etc. They don't say pseudoscience, or rather, that's not the general consensus.

--Nealparr 18:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Re ScienceApolgist's claims that there "is absolutely zero extraordinary evidence for the claims of the proponents" of PSI, and "thus, you see no articles in the standard journals regarding parapsychology." Firstly, there is a now a significant amount of evidence that even noted sceptics like Carl Sagan and Ray Hyman have commented fairly positively on and concluded that further scientific research is most definitely warranted. And secondly, there are a small but significant number of articles by parapsychologists or about parapsychological topics published in mainstream (ie., non-parapsychological) scientific journals. Those who hang on to the type of outdated views ScienceApologist espouses are, as Dean Radin put it, not only ill-informed about the current status of parapsychology, they are ill-informed about the current status of scepticism. Davkal 19:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is pretty-much indicative of how dyed-in-the-wool-pulled-over-the-eyes Davkal is when it comes to his true belief in the paranormal. He writes as though we are on the verge of a great breakthrough in science where the paranormal will be finally observed. Brave new world! Problem is, Misplaced Pages is not the place to predict such events. Sorry, you're at the wrong encyclopedia if you're looking for one that will accomodate your triumphalist attitude. --ScienceApologist 17:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not the place to predict such events, but it does allow for us to site third parties "in context" who believe that such events are inevitable. - perfectblue 08:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I note the following from the James Randi article: "The James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) currently offers a prize of one million U.S. dollars to anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural ability under agreed-upon scientific testing criteria. This suggests to me that the paranormal can be scientifically tested - even though I would argue that in Randi's case (the signing of pre-experiment contracts, Randi as sole arbiter etc.) it is pseudoscientifically done. That being said, if the editors here who are insisting that scientific testing of the paranormal is obvious pseudoscience then they should go to the Randi article and make the necessary amendments. That they will not do so demonstrates, I think, that the point being made here is a disingenuous one and that they merely want to put a pejorative term into every article they don't like while leaving all those they do like untainted by the same pejorative.Davkal 19:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Based on SA's assertions, none of Randi's research can be considered mainstream or reliable on the grounds that he is working with Psi, and therefore parapsychology, which SA states is a pseudoscience. Therefore, we should discount the fact that out of 150 applicants for Randi's million not one has passed the preliminary stages. We should also therefore discount all of SCICOP's evident against Psi too on the grounds that they must also be pseudoscientists. Great one,SA. Way to go.- perfectblue 08:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Anything is subject to experimentation, incorrect and wildly absurd hypotheses can be contradicted by observations, but the nature of induction means that, in principle, only positive results are meaningful. Having a discipline that receives only null results definitely makes that discipline extra-scientific. If the promoters continue to insist that there is scientific evidence for their position, that's when they become proponents of pseudoscience. --ScienceApologist 17:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

OF course, when you dismiss any good results and try to suggest that they are flukes or statistical manipulations, or when you're a drywaller from Denver rather than a scientist, that when you become a pseudoskeptic. - perfectblue 08:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Support. To the extent that parapsychology is considered at all, it is indeed generally considered a pseudoscience. Simões (/_contribs) 23:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thinking more on it, I'm wondering if this is even relevant. Considering that using the term requires a source, since it is likely to be challenged, whatever is said in an article should be an accurate representation of what the source says. With a source it's moot. Without a source it's moot.

--Nealparr 04:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Strong agreement, Per my evidence. This is clearly true. Parapsychology is almost entirely a pseudo science and should be treated as such on Misplaced Pages.Wikidudeman 22:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

In order to debunk Psi, you must conduct a parapsychology experiment (experimenting in Psi is automatically parapsychology regardless of whether you're proving or debunking). Congratulations, you've just supported a motion that would render all the results of all Psi-debunnkers like Randi and CSICOP impotent. - perfectblue 08:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Science has no obligation to "debunk" claims, those making the claims have an obligation to provide evidence that stands up to scrutiny. And "debunking" isn't limited to doing experiments - a published experiment can be scrutinized and if the methods and conclusions are flawed, that can call the results into question. In some cases, it is obvious that an experiment is useless just from the description of how it was conducted. --Minderbinder 15:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Disagree. Culture is outside the purview of science, and possibly in a similar way- especially in aspects such as simple traditions such as table manners. But scientists nevertheless study these things. A parapsychologist doesn't have to believe in the paranormal. You could make a career studying spiritualistic phenomena, and not believe in them. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 04:08, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Oppose per Nealparr. Wooyi 20:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree Bubba73 (talk), 02:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Antelan 20:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Tom Butler

Outside status

7a) Tom Butler is currently the director of AA-EVP and together with Lisa Butler the author of There Is No Death and There Are No Dead, a book touting Electronic Voice Phenomena as a vehicle for communication with the dead. The authors are cited in one review as "Tom and Lisa Butler are Electronic Voice Phenomena (EVP) and Instrumental TransCommunications (ITC) researchers in the United States. They are the Directors of the American Association of Electronic Voice Phenomena (AA-EVP)..."

Comment by Arbitrators:

Assuming this is the same person, and I have seen no protests otherwise so far, he is certainly a prominent activist. Fred Bauder 20:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 13:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support - LuckyLouie 19:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Question, Are you stating a fact, or nominating him? If you are nominating him then this would be a conflict of interests on your part.

Critique of Misplaced Pages

7b) Tom Butler has posted post an article critical of Misplaced Pages on his website. This page contains the following notice which links to it (some code does not display):

Comment by Arbitrators:

Same name Fred Bauder 20:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 13:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree, This seems pretty obvious.Wikidudeman 22:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

irrelevant: He's probably spoken about it around the water cooler too. What happens outside Misplaced Pages stays outside Misplaced Pages unless it's a threat of some kind, which this isn't.

Comment by others:

Support - LuckyLouie 19:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree in part, dissent in part - although true, but irrelevant to this case. We are not penalizing editors solely for their outside activities. Wooyi 20:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Relevance is not determined in this section, Wooyi. ---ScienceApologist 17:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Support the article is at minimum highly relevant to issues of Tom's good faith. The essay is also mildly concerning since it seems to call for more poeple of a specific POV to edit. JoshuaZ 00:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, unless anyone has forgotten the user directed new Misplaced Pages users to the essay. See for example, . JoshuaZ 16:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Davkal

8) Davkal has a history of violating edit warring, making personal attacks, recruiting meat puppets, and being uncivil on a wide range of pages.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 13:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. Simões (/_contribs) 12:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree-Wikidudeman 22:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Please clarify "a wide range of pages" - perfectblue 09

04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Support in particular tendentious editing. SheffieldSteel 16:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support - LuckyLouie 19:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree, and would add use of sockpuppets to evade a block to the list. MastCell 19:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree in part, dissent in part too strong language, and it neglected that Davkal made many good contributions. Wooyi 20:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

With which part of this statement of fact do you disagree? --ScienceApologist 22:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree. See recent history of List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts for examples of Davkal removing sourced content for no obvious reason (e.g. "cerealogy" being an obvious and well-identified pseudoscience renders crop circles by definition a pseudoscience related topic, since it a topic whose "study" is dominated by pseudoscience. See also edits like this , "neutralising" a description by removing the fact that "ceralogy" has no known scientific basis (which is absolutely factually accurate and supported by the cited source; removing Dianetics, note that the so-called E-meter does nothing according to Hubbard. See also this comment. Guy (Help!) 21:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Guy's comments here are typical of the kind of nonsense that goes on. He says I removed content for no reason. 1. I removed Dianetics from the section of the article reserved exclusively for topics identified as such by mainstream scientific bodies rather than, say, individual authors in books and articles (that is what the second section is for). This was all stated clearly in my edit summaries and on the talk page and on Guy's own talk page, yet he continues to add this to the wrong section in the article despite the fact that the sources clearly do not meet the criteria for inclusion in that section. 2. I have never removed crop circles from the article so I don't know why he seems to think I did. 3.The study of crop circles is simply the study of crop circles. There is nothing necessarily pseudoscientific about merely studying a thing that obviously exists (e.g, counting them, noting the increase in complexity from their early beginnings, tracing their history etc etc. All of this is grounded in very sound scientific thinking). That is why I removed the unsourced point that suggested the mere study of crop circles has no known scientific basis - i.e. in and of itself that statement is quite meaningless if not plainly false and, in any event, is not supported by the offered source. The points here, then, really should be why Guy is so intent on adding an item (Dianetics) to a section after having been repeatedly shown exactly why it doesn't belong there, and why is he so intent on adding his own unsourced, and incorrect, analyses (studying something that obviously exists has n known scientific basis) to articles. Davkal 10:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Martinphi

Paranormal primer

9a) Martinphi posted a Paranormal primer which has been interpreted by others as a guide for how "proponents" of the paranormal should edit at Misplaced Pages. The Misplaced Pages version is deleted.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Tom Butler describes it as such

Comment by others:

Support - It is recognized that individuals may express their personal opinions via offsite essays. However, (as with Tom Butler's offsite essay) Martin's offsite essay is of particular concern because it instructs and advocates POV editing of Misplaced Pages articles. -- LuckyLouie 19:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - although there is precedents that editors conducting outside activities undesirable to Misplaced Pages can be penalized, I still think that Misplaced Pages community should not penalize someone solely because of his outside activities. Wooyi 20:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing in the statement of fact about penality. --ScienceApologist 17:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant: A user simply stated his own philosophy, he did not try to pass it off as official Misplaced Pages policy. I state the principles by which I edit on my user page, as do many other users, this is normal. The user merely wrote a longer version than most people - perfectblue 09:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

How does anyone know it was so interpreted? Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 04:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Well Tom interpreted it as such. See SA's evidence above. As to PerfectBlue's concern, when someone's editing philosophy contains such gems as claiming that "Hard as it is for skeptical Wikipedians to accept, in many cases skeptics are an extreme minority" and claims that "The more controversial or fringe a subject, the less the lead should tell the reader what to believe" is somehow Misplaced Pages policy. There are so many problems with that sentence I don't know where to start. It was one of the main causes for the essay being NfDed on Misplaced Pages in the first place. Among other problems with that sentence, the presumption that controversial and fringe are somehow correlated is close to ridiculous. George W. Bush is controversial as is Hillary Clinton. Support of one of them is not at all in the same category as being a proponent of EVP or geocentrism or homeopathy or astrology or alien abductions. This statement is at best a misinterpretation of Misplaced Pages policy. JoshuaZ 01:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Facts are facts. Just as the skeptical view of God is in the minority, so is the skeptical view of some other paranormal topics. That is obviously very hard for skeptics to accept, but it is true. As to the second sentence "The more controversial or fringe a subject, the less the lead should tell the reader what to believe" this is just good writing. If a subject is controversial, it is the job of Misplaced Pages to present the controversy and the sources, not to tell the reader what to believe. But while it is excellent policy, because the purpose is not to instill a belief, but to inform. Since this is harder with fringe subjects, they ought to be treated more delicately, so that the reader is informed rather than merely biased. The reader should form their own bias based on the reliability of the sources- which is something we tell the reader. As to whether fringe and paranormal are correlated, see the title of the essay, "Paranormal primer," which should make it obvious that the correlation is within the paranormal. Thus "controversial or fringe" means "controversial or fringe paranormal" rather than "mainstream paranormal" as in the case of God. It is not good to pick on one sentence in order to try and condemn. Truth is truth, date is data- God is paranormal, and God is mainstream. The resurrection is paranormal, and mainstream. Life after death is paranormal, and mainstream, etc. etc. If I remember correctly, the bible says that Jesus was a telepath. This is something which skeptics should know better than others. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 03:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

First, I'm amusing that hat you spent a large amount time talking about a minor point and didn't address at all the sentence which is completely at odds with what NPOV actually says. Now, to claim that theological claims are in the same category as paranormal claims for our purposes is at best disingenous. I don't think anywhere here thinks we have any issues with over-skepticism on God or related articles and to be blunt, none of the editors concerned on the "paranormal" end ever edit those articles. The claim that "bible says that Jesus was a telepath" is such an abuse of language that I'm not even sure where to begin. JoshuaZ 03:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"6:7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal

on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.

6:8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the

withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth."

Misplaced Pages (ideally) is not here to tell the reader what to believe at all, but reports the content of sources. If you believe otherwise, you don't understand NPOV. My only point was that this maneuver is harder in controversial topics, and should have special attention paid to it (as it is nearly impossible not to tell the reader what to believe, I assumed it is generally done). So I guess you think that NPOV says that the lead should tell people what to believe?

The example I was using was Astrology, which has good sources which say it is pseudoscience than I knew of at the time. I wouldn't write it that way now, I would write something to the effect that

Some astrologers say that Astrology is scientifically supported, and that studies such as X show its validity. Astrology is not accepted by the scientific community. The X institution of science said Y (scientific consensus about Astrology). Which gives the reader the basic information about who exactly says what, and lets them make up their own mind. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 04:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how this whole detour into religion has anything to do with articles on the paranormal, it seems like a misdirection. Religious beliefs are presented as religious beliefs, not as something scientifically proven. We have actually discussed the possibility of describing some paranormal topics in a similar way, but Tom Butler objected on the grounds that mention of beliefs or religion make them sound like beliefs and not things that are factually proven.

Your astrology example has problems. While some astrologists may claim they have scientific support, isn't that a claim that, if true, could be backed up by experiments published by reliable sources and statements from scientists? The proposed statement is nothing more than "Astrologists say that scientists say..." when scientists can just speak for themselves. And what is your basis for thinking that the view of astrologers should be given more weight than that of the scientific community? Why not just say something like "Many people believe in astrology, although the idea doesn't have support from the scientific community"? (I'm not familiar with the details of astrology, are there any scientists supporting it?) I agree that readers should make up their own mind, the problem is that your "basic information" isn't neutral. There's a good reason we don't mention "Some people say the earth is flat" and allow readers to make up their own mind in the lead of Earth.

There seems to be a strawman argument going on that some editors are trying to suppress mention of notable beliefs. That's not the case at all, the objection is to presenting beliefs phrased as if they were accepted fact instead of saying that they are beliefs, as well as putting undue weight onto claims that beliefs are "proven". --Minderbinder 14:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I speak to the response above Minderbinder's. My lead would say pretty much what you would wish. It would say that astrology is a widespread belief, and (without the following WTA "although"), although some astrologers think there is scientific support, there is a consensus in the scientific community that it is not scientific.

The reast of what you are saying seems to be based on mis-reading what I put. I would not say that that the view of astrologers should be given more weight than that of the scientific community. There is not general support from the scientific community, and there is general rejection from the scientific community on astrology, yet at the same time, there is some very minor support from the scientific community, and so we can't make a total, blanket statement. That would be a nice generalization, and from one's usual standard of truth it would be fine, but an encyclopedia should be more precise. This is a fine point, and I don't really think our positions would be very far apart. The contention comes in where skeptical editors want to insert words or blanket statements of rejection without being able to source it. Astrology is one case where their position is extremely strong, but it still doesn't allow for an absolutist blanket statement "science rejects it," but only "there is a scientific consensus against it," as a scientific consensus is general and doesn't need to include all science. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 09:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Editor actions

9b) Martinphi has edit warred, violated WP:POINT and WP:3RR, and recruited meatpuppets to aid in his advocacy.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

proposed by ScienceApologist 13:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. The RfC lays all this out and more. Simões (/_contribs) 18:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree...Wikidudeman 00:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Support. The evidence is clear, and these actions are still ongoing, such as this new example of POV pushing on IONS, repeatedly removing "alleged" and what he calls "making less controversial" but is really just replacing the topics they cover with vague "euphimisms" --Minderbinder 14:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support - with provision that "sockpuppets" be modified to "meatpuppets" - LuckyLouie 19:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Partial agreement. There's no question about the edit-warring, 3RR, dismissal of feedback from the RfC, and WP:POINT issues. However, I don't see that he's created sockpuppets - in the case in question, it would seem to fall under the category of meatpuppetry. Martin professed to be unaware of the prohibitions in WP:MEAT, which I believe, and has not had any further issues in this arena since having it explained (so far as I'm aware). MastCell 19:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd be more inclined to give benefit of the doubt on the meat puppetry if he hadn't been so insistent that he had done nothing wrong and that he had every right to do meatpuppetry. --Minderbinder 22:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

My sense, from this thread, was that he understood and accepted that it was a problem; hence, I'd write it off as a reasonably innocent mistake which has been acknowledged and not repeated. As above, I generally agree with the other aspects of this proposed finding. MastCell 22:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree in part, dissent in part too strong language, and it neglects the fact that Martin did make many good contributions to paranormal-related topics. Wooyi 20:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Just because Martinphi made "good" contributions doesn't make this less of a fact. --ScienceApologist 18:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that what Wooyi was trying to get across is that the statement makes it appear that said user was "purely disruptive", when in fact they have only been disruptive some of the time. - perfectblue 09:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that Martinphi is completely unrepentant about his actions. For example, see this bizaare warning which is in response to this 3RR report which the closing admin seemed to think was a valid 3RR report aside from being moot due to time issues. See . The user's response to call the report "bogus" makes it hard to think that this user either intends or is capable of reforming. JoshuaZ 02:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Filing bogus 3RR accusations is something which should not be taken lightly. Minderbinder, being experienced in Misplaced Pages, should know that trying to reach a compromise is far different from edit warring. JoshuaZ and Minderbinder were edit warring, I was editing and trying to find a compromise. I again urge the Arbitrators to read the diffs involved, before taking seriously such accusations. I left the warning on Minderbinder's talk page to try and get his attention. If he doesn't stop this kind of action -edit warring, accusations which violate AGF, wikilawyering and filing reports and actions against lots of people- Misplaced Pages isn't going to tolerate him forever. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 02:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems a little bizarre that Martinphi is bringing this up given that it is precisely one of his own favored practices. It is doubly bizarre given that Minderbinder's report follows WP:3RR to the letter. Simões (/_contribs) 08:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Martinphi's edits are not 3RR violation since they are not even reverts, "reverts" are the simple undoing of a previous edit, Martinphi was try to reach a compromise in an existing warring between other users, which is a good thing. Wooyi 14:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

An edit is considered a revert if it undoes the changes of another—in whole or in part. All the diffs are clearly this. And I find it telling that you did not see it necessary to comment on the oddness of Martinphi's accusation since filing bogus 3RR reports is the sort of thing he has done (and even stands by the action when he does it!). These sort of blanket endorsements from you and other paranormal advocates become more bizarre by the day. Simões (/_contribs) 20:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no blanket endorsement, I've personally criticized Martinphi before and I have not endorsed every statement of him either. I'm just trying to analyze things here. You stated that he has made bogus 3RR claim, can you provide where is diff please? If I see it and it's indeed a bogus report, he would be wrong on that, I don't blanketly endorse anyone. Wooyi 20:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the false report made against ScienceApologist. As you can see, the revert diffs are edits done over the course of two weeks. In fact, only two of the reverts are within 24 hours of each other. this is the rationalization he gave for it. Martinphi was hoping to plant the seed to get SA eventually blocked, and to this day he still does not consider himself to be in the wrong. These are the people we're dealing with, and Martinphi isn't even the worst of them. Simões (/_contribs) 20:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope I'm not lumped into a "blanket endorsement". My only blanket endorsement is that I think everyone here is acting funny for some reason. This 3RR thing is about the Institute of Noetic Sciences article. That article was a mess. The reverts going on there came from several editors and (in my opinion), most of them weren't about improving the article as a whole, but rather to "correct" the other editor. Throughout all of this, barely any discussion on the talk page. So at this point, I'm blanketly un-endorsing everyone involved in this thing : )

Better explanation: The spirit of the 3RR rule stems from the fact that it's frustrating when you're trying to do something that isn't vandalism, an edit in good faith, and it just keeps getting reverted. Is Martinphi guilty of that? Yes definitely, even if it's not in this particular case. But seriously, in the IONS article there were three editors involved who were reverting. Just because there were two on the other side and they didn't quite get to three reverts individually, is it any less bad in the spirit of things? There are definitely way too many reverts going on.

--Nealparr 21:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, ScienceApologist, like Minderbinder, is a very abusive editor, edit warring and being highly uncivil. But he is often too clever to actually get sanctioned for it. Misplaced Pages rules don't seem to work when people are clever about such manipulation. What are more responsible editors supposed to do? The tactic was desperate, and so is the situation.

Simoes says it is "one of my own favored pratices." That's not actually true: I was still trying to figure out the 3RR rule- which in practice is extremely complicated. I'd just been blocked where the 4th revert was many days before. So it's a very fishy situation. However, Minderbinder's abusive report -which did not result in a block- did not show any reverts, but only attempts at compromise and better sourcing. 3RR is -as Minderbinder knows- not meant to refer to changing the text back and forth to try and get something everyone likes. At the very least, his report was an extreme failure to AGF. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 22:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The bottom line is that this is a valid 3RR, the admin who looked at it decided it was a valid 3RR and that it was moot. 3RR refers to reverting in whole or in part and that is precisely what occured here. Martinphi's inability to work with other editors or see himself in the same light is well illustrated by his response above where he asserts that "JoshuaZ and Minderbinder were edit warring, I was editing and trying to find a compromise". Now, if I were in Minderbinder's shoes I might not have reported the 3RR since Martin may not have been aware that he had gone over the limit (certainly well meaning editors can sometimes get caught up in their editing). However, to then assert that ""JoshuaZ and Minderbinder were edit warring, I was editing and trying to find a compromise" is simply unreal. Multiple editors disagreed with Martin and reverted him and yet somehow they are the ones who edit warred. This is at minimum an incredible example of assuming bad faith and is a decent example of the problems that arise with Martin's inability to see any edits he does as in the same light as he sees the edits of others. JoshuaZ 17:51, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

See Evidence page here for reply. Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 05:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Martin, you keep making accusations about me, but you haven't actually provided any evidence of them. I'd encourage you to provide evidence if it exists, and go ahead and propose a finding of fact about me so we can see if the arbcom agrees with your assessment of my editing or not. I can't really respond to general accusations made about me without any evidence to back them up. --Minderbinder 13:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Skeptic editors have engaged in dispute and warring

10) Some editors, such as User:Simoes, User:LuckyLouie among others, have pushed a skeptic POV on paranormal-related pages and have engaged in edit war against pro-paranormal editors, such as Martin and Tom Butler.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

The section header of your proposal is different from the statement. Simões (/_contribs) 21:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

...I hope you eventually get around to clarifying this. Is this "skeptics" collective engaged in a dispute, or are they pov-pushing (leaving aside the fact that you have yet to explain what the "skeptical pov" actually is)? What's the proposal here? Also, as an aside, I don't think Martinphi, et al. wish to be referred to as "pro-paranormal editors." The very name implies pov problems (cf. pro-war editors, pro-American editors, etc.). Simões (/_contribs) 23:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Not based on any evidence. --ScienceApologist 18:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose as the accused are not precisely named, and thus it is difficult to judge any correlation with the presented evidence. SheffieldSteel 16:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Wooyi 20:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. I see some evidence of pushing neutral POV (read: canonical policy) and plenty of evidence of resisting POV, but no obviosu evidence of pushing a sceptical POV (if such a ting can be identified separately form a properly neutral POV, which in many cases it cannot since the consensus external view of many of these subjects is sceptical). Guy (Help!) 12:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. I'm not sure there is a "skeptic POV". Rational/scientific skepticism is a non-POV. Scientific skepticism is the middle ground between not believing anything and believing everything/anything. Scientific skepticism doesn't go by opinions, it goes by evidence. Scientific skeptics accept something if and only if there is sufficient evidence. What's wrong with that? Bubba73 (talk), 22:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

This proposal is about user conduct and I'm not getting involved in that. I did want to point out, however, that skeptical viewpoints can be worded non-neutrally and provide an extreme example to that effect. "Paranormal phenomena does not exist," would be an example of a skeptical statement that isn't neutral. Most of the edits I've seen in evidence (some better than others) seem to have been a good faith effort to present a neutral point of view, but there is a risk of going from non-neutral to controversial. Some skeptical viewpoints, although completely rational, do invoke controversy. That's what people have been implying when they say "pseudoskeptical" (not saying anyone here is). Pseudoskepticism goes from a statement like "I don't see any scientific evidence to support the phenomena" to "There is no phenomena" rather quickly. Sometimes these two viewpoints are seen as the same thing, or interchangeable, but for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, one is neutral and the other isn't. In a religious article, for example, a statement like "There is little scientific support for the notion of a God" would probably be considered neutral. The statement that "There is no God" would definitely cause some controversy. Both are skeptical viewpoints, or at least seen as such.

Notice my neutral examples (and those of Bubba73) add the qualifier "scientific". Sometimes that's left off and then the controversy begins. "There is little scientific evidence for paranormal phenomena" and "There is little evidence for paranormal phenomena" might seem like the same statement, but they aren't at all equal in neutrality. The first says science doesn't support paranormal phenomena. The second says that all the people who believe they've had a paranormal experience are deluded or liars. That might be true, but it's more than a little controversial.

I would say that I have seen evidence of this occuring without saying anyone here has done this.

--Nealparr 22:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It appears you're using "skeptical" in the colloquial sense (e.g., "I'm skeptical that my partners loves me"). When brought up on this RfArb, people are referring to scientific skepticism. Simões (/_contribs) 23:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. That distinction's not always made or apparent. The average Misplaced Pages reader may not even know there is a difference. Sometimes (or possibly) a skeptical POV could be presented from an editor who doesn't know the difference.

--Nealparr 23:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose: I have never seen this occur or seen evidence of it occur.Wikidudeman 22:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose I have seen no evidence of this occuring and certainly no evidence that anything rose to an actionable level by the editors in question. JoshuaZ 00:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Support (but not user specific; generally this has occured). Skeptic editors and "defenders of the truth" have done this. Pushing a POV and calling it a NPOV is not acceptable. Both anti-paranormal and pro-paranormal POVs should be refrained from. NPOV and objectivity should be strived for. Skeptic POV driven edits should not be acceptable. J. D. Redding 19:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

ScienceApologist has engaged in smear campaign

10) ScienceApologist has used unencyclopedic and insulting language to conduct smear campaign against paranormal researchers, as shown evidently in This edit and these edits presented in the evidence page.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment. The diff you cite is certainly a counterproductive edit, but I haven't noticed that as a chronic feature of ScienceApologist's editing behavior. As far as I can tell, this was an instance where he let his frustration get the best of him. Do you have any evidence showing that he is waging a campaign? A single diff doesn't even inspire one to take your proposal seriously, much less support it. Simões (/_contribs) 22:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I consider that edit to be in-line with the principle of attribution. It's only on MacRae's say-so that he is considered a microelectronics expert. He has no outside affiliation or credentials to indicate that he is somehow an expert. I merely thought that "fancies himself" was another way of stating "calls himself". I don't see the edit as problematic and, indeed, if this is the worst of what I'm guilty I am truly sorry. However, is this really a smear campaign? I mean, really. --ScienceApologist 22:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, SA, I have done my best to avoid single you out and taking it personally, as I also made a proposal regarding to behavior of other editors, not just you. I know you might mean well, as a matter of AGF, but the thing is that edits like the one above is a bit unreasonable and only making the problem worse. Often good-faith change can potentially lead to an edit war. I was only trying to admonish some editors including you to act more civilly and humanely. Besides, my proposal of caution wouldn't even hurt your ability to contribute in any way. Wooyi 22:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Considering that you have declared your belief in the paranormal before and have staunchly allied yourself with a particular camp, it is hard for me to take your proposals at face-value, but let's just say that it is plainly not a fact, but rather the opinion of those like yourself who dislike my "style" that I engaged in a smear campaign. You have only your vague feelings on the matter and no evidence to back up your statements here. It's pretty indicative of the way a lot of assertions get made by paranormal-advocates, interestingly enough. --ScienceApologist 18:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not say I am a "paranormal-advocate". I did indicate that I do think some paranormal phenomena exist, but it's not a blanket endorsement to the contribution of other paranormal editors. Note that I have disagreed with those pro-paranormal editors as well. Also, in a strict sense, all non-atheist people can be described as believing in "supernatural". In America, the majority of people do believe in a religion, which is in a strict sense, "paranormal". So what you stated was labeling a majority of people of being anti-science because they believe supernatural phenomena exist, which is not accurate. Also you said "It's pretty indicative of the way a lot of assertions get made by paranormal-advocates, interestingly enough," the skeptic editors made more assertions than the pro-paranormal ones, so I don't know how your statement can be justified. Anyways, I'm trying to not take a side here, but the behavior of the skeptic editors really doesn't make any sense to me. Or you may, as you said yesterday, because I mostly edit law and politics topics so I might not be so familiar with how scientific articles work here. And although some of you see me as taking the pro-paranormal side, let me tell you that I'm not, I have even criticized Martinphi in edit summaries, like here. Wooyi 21:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

While there is a big difference between religion and the paranormal, Misplaced Pages's religion articles are an excellent staring point at explaining how to neutrally handle subjects relevant to this arbitration. Check out the article on Genesis and then compare that to Age of the Earth. You will see that the emphasis in the article about the creation myth is very different from the emphasis in the article about physical reality of the age of the Earth. The article on Genesis is centered on describing the humanistic narrative in the way that is tied to the religious scholarship of higher criticism. As such, there is a big difference between how we write an article on, for example, the pseudoscience of creation science (which is, by the way, specifically labeled as such) and the associated religious practices and beliefs of most people that do not necessarily conflict with science. Ideas such as belief in spirits or New Age spirituality are analogous to articles on the book of Genesis, while the article on parapsychology is directly analogous to articles on creation science. While the former ideas may have practioners who harbor the pseudoscientific beliefs associated with the latter ideas, there is a definite distinction between believing in things that are described through humanistic narratives and making overt declarations about observable reality that contradict scientific consensus based on the scientific method. There is no problem with Misplaced Pages reporting the narrative accounts of people's beliefs, but as soon as the phenomenology of physical reality comes into play (saying, for example, that electronic equipment will pick up the voices of disembodied spirits), that's when the subject material enters into the domain of science and runs the risk of being labeled as pseudoscience. Believing that disembodied voices are speaking to you is a belief, plain and simple, that can be uncontroversially described in many different articles which are either grounded in physiological explanations or are absolutely irrelevant from a scientific standpoint as they use humanistic narratives. Reporting that these voices are manifest physical phenomena is directly contradicted by physics itself and will therefore be subject to criticism. See the issue? --ScienceApologist 22:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your long explanation. I actually do think you presented some good points, I'll think about it. The "electronic recording" seems to be a focus of controversy here. This present the question that can scientific technology and methods (like using a electronic recorder to conduct observation) be used to verify phenomena (and alleged phenomena) that are unexplained by current scientific development, and how much scientific method must be used to be true science. I will think about some of these valid issues presented by you. And sorry again for previous harsh comments. Wooyi 23:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Your apology is gratefully accepted. I also hope that my actions haven't upset you too much, as I have been informed in the past that I can be aggressively blunt and a harsh applier of the spade principle. I hope that you understand that my goals in this arbitration are not to have science take over Misplaced Pages, but merely to properly describe the scientific perspective in articles that relate directly to the subjects which science studies. --ScienceApologist 23:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose, This is clearly false. Based on my vast observations of the edits of this user, I have never seen any thing like this.Wikidudeman 22:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. No evidence offered for this proposal. Simões (/_contribs) 01:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Support Please review the talk and edit logs from EVP, you will see that he/she acted many times to delete the qualifications or status of individuals. For example, describing a senior employee at Belling and Lee laboratory in such terms that it made him appear to be a co-conspirator of a man whom he was supposed to be observing in order to verify the scientific nature of an experiment, an ddelting the fact that a particular researcher had 40+ years experience in a particular field even though there was no logical doubt over this statement. - perfectblue 09:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Wooyi 21:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Absurd proposed finding. Choice of words was unwise ("styles himself" would be accurate and may have been what was meant) but this is not a smear campaign. Guy (Help!) 22:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. No evidence of smear campaign, on or off WP. - LuckyLouie 03:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Support. SA has a history of Off-wiki personal attacks ... via systems under his control (it should be noted that, with AGF, he may not been absolutely responsible; But AGF wears thin with a history of such conduct). His actions have been disruptive. J. D. Redding 19:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Additional comment: At 09:21 on 19 May 2007, ScienceApologist made an edit to the 'Websites' section in the radio astronomy article with the comment "removing Tesla cruft". This is cited by several reliable sources, such as Eric Brus, Richard Golob (1990), N. Ben-Yehuda (1990), and Margaret Cheney, Robert Uth, Jim Glenn (1999), among others ... J. D. Redding 18:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)