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Japan

Was Japan really a tributary of Imperial China?? When? My perhaps limited understanding was that Japan established cordial relations in the 600s but was independent. Can anyone clarify? 71.255.251.105 13:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

In theory, any state that had formal diplomatic relations with Imperial China would have been a tributary, since the court recognized no equals. However, the level of actual control differed from state to state. Some merely engaged in the tributary system to benefit from the trade relations, others were allies that enjoyed considerable autonomy and priviledges, others were protecterates or conquered areas that weren't formally administered as provinces, and others were various tribes and indigenous peoples that for whatever reasons weren't governed the same way farmers and cities were. The system really covered a lot, which is why compiling a list is such a challenge, and why even on the list, I gave a brief history and explanation for each entry. --Yuje 10:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Article needs organization

Instead of just mass listing every single country that paid tribute at one point or another, there should be some kind of organization to this messy article. I suggest doing it by dynasty, listing the tributaries to Han, Tang, Ming, etc dynasties, instead of to "Imperial China". 2000 years is a long time span to cover, and most of the countries shifted in and out of the tributary system at one point or another, so the listing should be by dynasty, and each listing should cover the years during which they were tributaries. --Yuje 12:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur. It is dubious whether Japan can be considered a tributary after the 15the century, if at all. --Niohe 12:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I started filling in information for the Han Dynasty period, but someone needs to fill information on some of the later dynasties. I don't have any convenient references on hand for those at the moment, and not very familiar with the history of some of those periods. Ming and Qing periods are more clear, but some of the dynasties between I'll leave to more knowledgeable people, or until I get a reference on hand. --Yuje 10:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Are there good enough sources for us to make this article actually an article about what a tributary state to imperial China was? For example, information about what that tributary relationship was like, what kinds of exchanges those states had with China, etc etc. One interesting thing I've read somewhere was that at some point, the tributary relationship of Joseon to Qing China was actually more beneficial to Joseon in terms financial gains. Annually, Joseon would send tributes to the Qing court, and in return, the Qing court would send "gifts" back, such that the exchange basically was like a trade, but the value of the "gifts" that Joseon received was more than the tributes that it was sending. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously the situation differed from state to state and among the different time periods, but there were tributories over which the empire exerted very real power. Take for example the Ming Dynasty and the Mongols of modern-day Inner Mongolia. The trade relationship kept the Mongols economically dependent on the Chinese for trade, and the Ming controlled which areas in which they could graze their herds. The Ming also were the ones to assign titles to their leaders and this made those leaders politically reliant on the empire for their legitimacy. The Mongols were called on to supply cavalry and horse for the Ming army, and several ethnic Mongols even became serving generals. --Yuje 03:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I personally think this is definitely an interesting topic, but you are absolutely right, the situation with each state differed. I would love to expand this article to actually discuss what the tributary relationships were like, but it would probably take a lot of reading and fact finding. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The emperor of China was the only son of heaven and it couldn't accept other kind of emperors. Any states that wanted some kind of relationships would have had to represent themselves as king, prince or duke. The emperor of China did not have soverignty over its vassals. The emperor was recognized as the one with heavenly accepted authorities of all things exist on earth. Think of emperors of the holy roman empire. The emperor of Rome was not the sovereign ruler of France or England or any other states that co-existed, but more of ceremonial ruler of the world that the west recognize. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.169.222.234 (talk) 15:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

Deletion of an inaccurate map

The accuracy of "ChineseTributaryStates.png"(above) made by 24630 is suspected. Moreover, according to mapmaker's comment, he doesn't include Qing dynasty in Imperial China. So, I've deleted that map for following reasons.

1. Imperial China, not limited Han Chinese Empires, must include Qing Dynastay assimilated into the Chinese culture.
2. What does mean "Core" Chinese Empire(green. named by mapmaker)? And is it made on the base of reliable source derived from academical research? The boundary and definition of core always are controversial.
3. Territories that were under the direct adminstration of the Chinese Empire(light green)is not accurate, too.
4. Reliable source needed 2SteamClocks 12:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Japan's Status

It should also be noted that Japanese shogun engaged in tributary relations with the Chinese court. Many corresponded with the Chinese Emperor under the name "King of Japan."

What about tribute paid by China to other powers ?

In the case of T'ang-era China / Tibet trade, each side routinely described the trade goods which it received as "tribute," and those which it exported as "gifts." If such accounts are to be admissible in terms of showing Tibet to have paid tribute, should we not accept them as evidence of China's vassalage? Mortimer

Goguryeo as a tribute state

Goguryeo and various other Korean kingdoms certainly were not tributaries of China. The sources used are Chinese sources, which obviously state Goguryeo as a tributary state, which makes this POV. I think Goguryeo and Unified Silla should be taken off the list. Good friend100 02:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

106 AD

Hopefully we can prevent an edit war. The sources states:

From 75 BC until about 106 AD the governors of a small military prefecture of the Chinese Han dynasty, named Xuantu, engaged Koguryo leaders in a client relationship...

Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 00:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Your quote emphasized only on Han - Gaogouli relations. Keep in mind there was also tribute to Tang.

For example, Samguk Sagi (Korean primary source):

Year fifteen (656), summer, fifth month, iron fell like rain. Winter, twelfth month, envoys were sent to Tang to offer congratulations to the imperial crown prince.

Assault11 00:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If User:Good friend100 doesn't have a problem with this new evidence, then feel free to edit. I know you and he have had disputes about other articles, so please be patient and give him time to respond. Let's avoid an edit war. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 00:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The current version by HongQiGong seems fine. Cydevil38 00:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are still not convinced, here's a secondary source to confirm it:

Peace was maintained with the Koguryo after they sent tribute to the Tang in 619 until the Tang vassal state Silla complained that Koguryo and Paekche attacked them in 643.

I believe this is an open-and-shut case. It is quite clear that Gaogouli maintained a centuries-long tributary relationship with the successive Northern Chinese Dynasties. Assault11 03:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Here, it says that Throughout Koguryo’s existence as a state, its kings typically engaged Chinese leaders in warfare rather than as allies

I have mentioned this several times already and I am positive that my logic has more weight then your claims. Goguryeo had endless wars with many Chinese dynasties and it doesn't make sense that Goguryeo would give money to its enemy.

And your source seems to be very poorly written. Silla was not a "Tang vassal state". It is an obvious bias against Goguryeo. Good friend100 23:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

So should we try to come up with a compromise here? or are supporters of both sides of the argument pretty adamant on using their versions? Personally I'm neutral. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 23:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Compromise? Are you kidding me? Good friend100 has a very narrow knowledge of the historical texts presented, he even rejected the primary Korean source Samguk Sagi. He has so far provided NOTHING that disputes the facts presented by the historical text. He is not disputing the facts presented - partly because there is absolutely no ambiguity with regards to this excerpt - he's attacking the source itself. I have also provided a secondary source confirming tributes sent to Tang. Again, he does not dispute the facts presented, but starts ranting on about how "powerful" Gaogouli was becoming. What he ignores completely is the fact that Gaogouli was a mere third-rate Tang peripheral state that was in no position whatsoever to threaten Tang's overlordship in the region. Given the fact that Tang was arguably the most powerful Chinese dynasty in history, its not hard to think that a kingdom like Gaogouli would also be one of its tributaries. Oh, and by the way, Unified Silla was a Tang vassal. Assault11 00:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

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