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This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Keep, March 30, 2007, see discussion. Speedy Keep, January 11, 2007, see discussion. Keep, December 12, 2006, see discussion. Keep (no consensus), August 9, 2006, see discussion. Keep (no consensus), November 25, 2005, see discussion.

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Fad

I find it sad, and disgusting, that civilized people would engage in this anti-Americanism fad. Every single person who is defending this article knows full-well that they are motivated by a political agenda, and that this article does not belong in a NEUTRAL encyclopedia. I hope one day, probably after GWB is out of office, most of you wake up from your blind fad. I guess the United States is the only nation that sponsors terrorism, right? Garric 05:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

<edit conflict>

• You probably wanted to say:

I find it sad, and disgusting, that civilized people would engage in this pro-Americanism fad. Every single person who is attacking this article knows full-well that they are motivated by a political agenda, and that this article does belong in a NEUTRAL encyclopedia. I hope one day, probably after GWB is out of office, most of you wake up from your blind adoration which ipso facto precludes criticism. Nomen Nescio 10:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

1) Re "Anti-Amricanism": "The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships Thus, in the old Soviet Union, dissidents were condemned as "anti-Soviet." That's a natural usage among people with deeply rooted totalitarian instincts, which identify state policy with the society, the people, the culture. In contrast, people with even the slightest concept of democracy treat such notions with ridicule and contempt. Suppose someone in Italy who criticizes Italian state policy were condemned as "anti-Italian." It would be regarded as too ridiculous even to merit laughter. Maybe under Mussolini, but surely not otherwise." 2) Do you deny the events listed here occured? Do you deny that civilians were the targets? Do you deny that the intent of these actions was to persuade governments or populations to take a certain course of action or oust democratically elected governments when they persued policies not in line with the interests of Washington? 3) There are indeed pages for other state sponsors of terrorism and the acts they've committed LamontCranston 20:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Garric, this isnt really the place to discuss this in a forum like fashion, nor belittle those who subscribe to some of the theory presented. While I agree that the article has serious pov problems, and I have opinions about the very slanted pov pushing that goes on here, as well the original research and synthesis of materials present, the correct action is to edit the article and make it npov, or failing that put the article up for deletion. FWIW, I think this article COULD be useful and accurately describe some of the terrorist allegations against the US. In its current form though, its a piece of slop that has been shaped into an anti-american manifesto and is example of the worst of wiki(which is truly a shame). Dman727 10:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Pointing out brutal state policies is Anti-American? LamontCranston 20:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are you asking me? I have not made such an assertion. The ARTICLE in its current form of being out of context, inaccurate, inventive and highly pov certainly is. As I referenced, there is a place in wiki(and beyond) for pointing "brutal state policies" of the US and other states. Indeed it could be done fairly and informatively in this very article. As it is however, , the article is highly radicalized and in the end betrays its purpose. Dman727 11:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You have not made such an assertion? Dude, wtf! You called it "an anti-american manifesto", are you now denying making such an assertion? As for context, do tell what is the right context for explaining state terrorism - negating it every step of the way with claims of doing it for a greater good? With the exception of the linking to Operation Northwood, these are solid facts presented in the article. LamontCranston 21:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Lamont, you very well know that this article is a crock, why blindly defend it like this? You have no one to convince except yourself. Garric 14:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

What here is incorrect? School of the Americas? The actions of men like Orlando Bosch & Luis Posada Carriles? The findings of the Church Committee? The Nicaragua vs. United States of America ICJ trial? Operation Gladio? Operation Ajax? Operation PBSUCCESS? Operation Mongoose? Operation Phoenix? Operation Condor? The Strategy of Tension? Point it out man! Aside from Operation Northwood, what here is exaggerated? Point it out man!

Are you saying these things never happened, it's all an anti-American lie perpetrated by people who hate America because they can't understand its inherent decency & innate moral superiority?

Or are you saying they did happen but are exaggerated, justifiable and just how innocent were these so-called civilians anyway?

LamontCranston 03:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to avoid this page like the plague as it is pointless to run a marathon in knee deep shit, but this has gone on too long.

• Orlando Bosch & Luis Posada Carriles: Did Bosch or Carriles work for the CIA when he bombed Flight 455? Oh that’s right, they didn’t, in fact they were glad that the CIA was taking heat for it because it drew the attention off them.
• Nicaragua vs. United States of America ICJ trial: Did the IJC mention the FSLN’s support of the FMLN and ELN who were involved in pretty much the same activities as the Contras? Of course not, because after all, the Sandinistas were only victims, never perpetrators of “State Supported Terrorism”
• Operation Gladio: here’s a sweet one if you ask me, the rantings of “9/11 Scholar for Truth” Danielle “why did 4000 Jews stay home that day” Ganser. Yeah … real credible.
• The Strategy of Tension: see above, pure, unadulterated Ganser bullshit.
• Operation Ajax: The overthrow of an pro-Soviet Iranian dictator during the height of the cold war, what a freakin travesty.
• Operation Condor: OMFG! How terrible of us to relay the communications of Latin American countries facing Cuban and Soviet sponsored insurgencies! The Humanity … Oh the HUMANITY!!!!
• Operation Mongoose: WTF were we thinking! Attempting to undermine a communist dictatorship 90 miles from Florida that was letting the Soviets place short and medium range nuclear missles on its soil.. I blame the fascist AmeriKKKan government for allowing this insanity.
• Operation Phoenix: fighting VC guerrillas with their own tactics? Sheer madness!
• Operation PBSUCCESS: Well … that was pretty shitty I guess.
• Carlos The Jackle: Oh ... wait ...The Cubans and Bulgarians were responsible for him ... move along ... nothing to see here ... just swallow the Red Pill and pretend you didn’t read this
• Iran Air Flight 655: So right you are on this one, in fact I remember watching the video of the bridge after they found out it was a civilian airline the cheers and hoots were almost deafaning ... Oh wait ...they were all pretty stunned ... in fact sickened to realize they just killed a couple hundred people ... move along ... nothing to see here

So yes, we are saying that most of the content of this page is unadulterated garbage from equally dubious sources.Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The above section "Fad" does not belong on this talk page. I vote that we remove it as trolling.Giovanni33 22:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• "Operation Gladio: here’s a sweet one if you ask me, the rantings of “9/11 Scholar for Truth” Danielle “why did 4000 Jews stay home that day”"

&

• "The Strategy of Tension: see above, pure, unadulterated Ganser bullshit." - You don't actually know what they are, do you? Nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 or the conspiracy nonsense that has cropped up around it , I've no idea why you've confused them, its something that occurred in Europe, Italy specifically, decades earlier. Please go and read.
• "Operation Ajax: The overthrow of an pro-Soviet Iranian dictator during the height of the cold war, what a freakin travesty." - Check the facts, democratically elected, but speaking of dictatorships what was the Prime Minister & Parliament replaced with...A KING WITH ABSOLUTE POWER, you've no right to complain about anyone when that is what the US is going around putting in their stead. 'pro-Soviet': by that we mean he wished to pursue independent development rather than hand mineral resources over to Anglo-American corporations. So independence and use of resources for development is pro-Soviet, while a tyrannical Shah is pro-freedom and democracy and all that nice stuff?
• "Operation Condor: OMFG! How terrible of us to relay the communications of Latin American countries facing Cuban and Soviet sponsored insurgencies!" - organising and coordinating not just relaying communications, you really need to research these things TDC. They kind of shot themselves in the foot with this one when they blew up out the front of the State Department building a dissident who was out of Chile at the time of the coup d'etat and was making trouble by speaking out in western nations, had to tone things down after that, they also tried to put out a contract on Congressman Edward Koch.
• "Operation Mongoose: WTF were we thinking! Attempting to undermine a communist dictatorship 90 miles from Florida that was letting the Soviets place short and medium range nuclear missles on its soil.. I blame the fascist AmeriKKKan government for allowing this insanity." - They were doing this in response to US aggression, it's called a credible deterrent, there's no doubt about it being very insane but consider what drove them to it, at the 30th anniversary conference held in Havana, McNamara and the other Kennedy administration members who attended agreed that under the circumstances Cuba made the only choice available and they'd have done it too .
• "Operation Phoenix: fighting VC guerrillas with their own tactics? Sheer madness!" - Well now here you are in agreement regarding the US targeting civilian population, to the tune of at least 6,000 people killed, no need to be a smartarse about it though.
• "Operation PBSUCCESS: Well … that was pretty shitty I guess." - Why do you say that? You support all these other actions, no doubt plenty of others not listed here too. The official story for PBSUCCESS was the same as all the others here , Operation Ajax was even used as a blueprint for PBSUCCESS. So why a problem with this when its the same as all the rest? Maybe you've somehow managed to do some serious reading on PBSUCCESS.
• "Iran Air Flight 655: So right you are on this one, in fact I remember watching the video of the bridge after they found out it was a civilian airline the cheers and hoots were almost deafaning ... Oh wait ...they were all pretty stunned ... in fact sickened to realize they just killed a couple hundred people ... move along ... nothing to see here" - They didn't mind being in Iranian territorial waters at the time they did it, you didn't explain how other US ships in the area were able to clearly identify it as a civilian airliner - in a commercial corridor, they didn't mind the heroes welcome they got, they didn't mind the medals they got, they didn't mind the Navy Department cover-up that cleared them of any responsibility, they didn't mind Bush I declaring "I will never apologize for the United States of America—I don’t care what the facts are", did any of them speak up when Iran retaliated with Pan Am 103 later that year?

So we have one where you can't account for the treatment they receive, two cases of mistaken identity, three cases of severely negating what occurred, another where you wallow in a psychopath-esque admittance of what happened which I gotta say is a little creepy and its up their with al-Qaeda guys boasting and laughing about 9/11, another where you admit it was actually the wrong thing to do. The same TDC we've grown to know and love. LamontCranston 08:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Under Construction

Cold we return to the relevant portion of the debate. Please this is not a blog, soapbox or any other nice way to vent your oinions. Returning to this article can we debate the points raised and use arguments to explain why we think something is or is not terrorism. Nomen Nescio 08:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The lastest edit conflict was with this version, which was a compromised version that had gained some consensus:

"Some scholars, such as Noam Chomsky, argue that the U.S. has been legally found guilty of state terrorism based on the verdict by International Court of Justice condemning the United States Government for its "unlawful use of force."

"The claimants say the U.S. is hypocritical because Government regularly asserts a public image and agenda of anti-terrorism."

VS: This version:

"Noam Chomsky argues the U.S. is guilty of state terrorism because the International Court of Justice found it guilty of unlawful use of force."

"The claimants say this is hypocritical because the U.S. Government regularly asserts a public image and agenda of anti-terrorism."

I've asked that we talk about this conflict but the other side claims in the edit summary this has already been discussed. I don't see such discussion. Maybe he can point it out? For me there are two issues that makes the first version better. One is the issue is one of better phrasing. For examples, repeating the word guilty is poor English "US is guilty of...because found it guilty of...", and the use of "it" instead of naming the US, which makes the point clear. The other more important reason is accuracy. To claim that just Chomsky argues this is misleading and false. Its a POV articulated strongly by Chomsky, hence his being mentioned as a respresentative of this POV, but its just Chomsky.Giovanni33 16:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I still support the first sentence in the first version, but for it to say "Some scholars", we need to cite somebody else in addition to Chomsky. I think that's the main objection. I support the second sentence in the second version because it's written better, although the meaning is identical. - Merzbow 17:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that there is a typo for the second sentence in the first version.It should read, "The claimants say the U.S. Government is hypocritical because it regularly asserts a public image and agenda of anti-terrorism." I agree we should add more sources, but I wonder if that is the real basis or only objection. If we add another source, I suspect some editors will still oppose it. I guess I'd like to see the editors who opposed the edit state taht this is the issue, and thus we can have the article unprotceted by adding a source. If so that is easily remedied as there are multiple sources besides Chomsky that can be used. Giovanni33 18:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If there are other scholars who have made this claim, I would like to see who they are and exactly what they said. We might be glossing over a lot of varying opinion with 'some scholars say...' Also, the page needs be restored to the consensus-supported name, 'Allegations of...' Tom Harrison 20:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Well there are many writers to choose from. I'd say that Dr. Frederick H. Gareau who holds a Ph.D. in international relations and organizations from American University, Washington, DC, as well as in political science from the University of Geneva might be a good second to pick as a source. He is full professor at Florida State University and author of The United Nations and Other International Insitutions: A Critical Analysis as well as an extensive number of articles and conference reports. The book in particular that makes these claims supporting the Chomsky POV is entitled" STATE TERRORISM and the UNITED STATES. An abstract can be found here: . Some other writers expressing this POV for example are: Should the United States Renounce Terrorism? See: http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html; FROM WOUNDED KNEE TO IRAQ: A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS, and http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans/foreign.html: Terrorism as Foreign Policy.Giovanni33 00:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

You forgot to cite Dr. Seuss.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 06:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't but I'm glad you are sharing your reading material with us. I'm not suprised.Giovanni33 09:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

So what exactly do they say? Do they in fact "argue the U.S. is guilty of state terrorism because the International Court of Justice found it guilty of unlawful use of force?" Tom Harrison 02:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I never argue that, and that is not the wording that I support. The US is guilty of state terrorism because it commits acts that qualify as state terrorism per every definition that we have, and the instance of the ICJ ruling is a case where the US was found legally guilty of committing such acts, which these scholars identify as state terrorism (which the courts call "unlawful use of force,' and 'in violation of international law," etc.Giovanni33 09:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

That and that the U.S. is naughty. That sums it up I think.--MONGO 07:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Naughty is putting it mildly. Criminal is more like it.Giovanni33 09:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that Marshall Plan was pure terrorism.--MONGO 21:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you have support for that claim? I think you are confusing terrorism with imperialism. There is some overlap but the two are quite distinct things, esp. for the kind of economic imperialism that you cite.Giovanni33 22:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

It was an imperialist terrorist scheme to make them dependent, and sap their will to defend themselves, or even reproduce. Good thing that plan failed, huh? Tom Harrison 21:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I see you changed your idea of the Marshal Plan from plain dollar imperialism to terrorism, so while its on topic (perhaps create another section for this), do you have any sources that make such a claim? I really think you have a fundamental confusion about the two very different subject matters. Remember this is not a place for OR. Of course, I am assuming good faith with the seriousness of your comments here.Giovanni33 23:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but this is a bit off topic since this article is not about imperialism, but terrorism. Can we stay on topic?Giovanni33 22:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, you have to prove terrorism first...all you have is the opinions of a few well know radicals...who cares. This reminds me of arguments with UFO believers, etc. Cherry picking "facts" to support an a priori premise.--MONGO 05:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. This is not for me to prove, as a matter of fact. That would be OR. It is only for me to prove this is a notable POV as articulated by scholars such as Noam Chomsky and others, and thus we can state such as a fact, as evidenced by the sources. And, who cares? I do, and as many others around the world, even if you call them "radicals." Maybe you dismiss their well grounded and scholary work, but many people, including myself, don't. Lets not impose our own biases here. If you dispute their allegations of fact, then please cite a reputable source of us to include as a balancing opinion in the body of the article. That would be fine. The conflict, again, is to state that just Chomsky says this, as opposed to "some scholars, such as Chomsky..." which implies this is a point of view not unique to Chomsky, which is accurate.Giovanni33 07:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Chomsky is a Linguistics expert...not a global terrorism expert. His opinions are no more noteworthy than anyone elses on this subject matter. That no unified group, the UN or other recognized governmental body has agreed with his and the very very few other's radical viewpoints such as his, puts the onus on you to come up with substantial evidence that isn't riddled with your a priori premises. I strongly recommend this article be restored to the correct title which is "Allegations of state terorism by the United States". Your strawman arguments won't work here.--MONGO 07:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with moving the article back to the original "Allegations..." name. - Merzbow 07:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no straw man argument, except on one your making now. I stated what the argument was, and its you who keeps shifting it away from the issue at hand. Now you are attacking Chomsky as a credible source. Sorry, wrong argument. That is the straw man. You were reverting to "Chomsky says,' if you don't think he has a right to be heard on this subject matter, then why revert to what he says? This is not an excuse to deny that other scholars such as Chomsky also have the POV that the "unlawful acts" in "violation of international law," etc. that the court found the US guilty of were in fact actions of state sponored terrorism. I've provided the sources, and its a vew that is rather noteable, and published in many books on the subject. You may want to exclude Chomsky's views to only linguistics, but he has written many well regarded and researched books on the subject of State Terrorism of the US, and he is recognized for his political commentary and analysis, as much as for his theories in linguistics. Moreover, I cited another scholar above, Dr. Gareau, whose academic area of research, is international relations and politics. Sorry, you don't get to say "so what," and dismiss these arguments, or change the issue. As you say, strawman arguments won't work here.Giovanni33 07:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Quick question: Do you also edit under the name Nomen Nescio?  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 16:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Since we keep encountering each other it is unfortunate your style of debating (ignoring facts that might sway your distorted view of reality) has matured into making allegations that are totally unwaranted. I find your repeated and unsupported accusations offensive and you are more than welcome to retract that allegation. After you have done that you might take some time to read WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Cheers Nomen Nescio 08:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't speaking to you, or was I? Did you lose track?  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 14:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's stop being clever, you clearly suggest I am a sockpuppet, or using one. That is a not-cool thing to do and I am waiting for your retracting. There is some space following this comment. Nomen Nescio 14:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

What about prof Frederick H. Gareau (PhD in international relations and organizations from American University, Washington, DC, as well as a licence in political science from the University of Geneva) and his book State Terrorism and the United States? Or Michael Mandel (professor of Law at Osgoode Hall Law School, York University, Toronto, Canada) in How America Gets Away With Murder? // Liftarn

For what statement do you want to use them as sources? Tom Harrison 15:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

That there are other scholars who have made this claim. // Liftarn

What claim exactly? As I asked above, do they "argue the U.S. is guilty of state terrorism because the International Court of Justice found it guilty of unlawful use of force?" Tom Harrison 15:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and I answered that question above with sources of the claim by other scholars whose academic area of expertise is international relations and pol. sci.Giovanni33 00:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You avoided answering, said it wasn't wording you supported, and restated your position. Kind of like here. I have asked a couple of times now who these scholars are, what exactly they say. Who besides Chomsky argues "the U.S. is guilty of state terrorism because the International Court of Justice found it guilty of unlawful use of force?" I'm beginning to think the answer is just Giovanni33. Tom Harrison 03:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I did answer you, and your question's premise is wrong. Not even Chomsky argues that. its the wording that you put in the article, which is not acurate. The wording that I've tried to restore is an accurate reflection of the sources. Once again, the US is guilty of state terrorism because it commits acts that qualify as state terrorism per every definition that we have, and the instance of the ICJ ruling is a case where the US was found legally guilty of committing such acts, which these scholars identify as state terrorism (which the courts call "unlawful use of force,' and 'in violation of international law," etc Note how this is quite different than "Us is guilty of...because the ICJ found it guilty." That is too simplistic and finding guilty is not the reason for being guilty--its only a legal finding that establishes the factual basis and legitimacy of the charges presented for examination. Those actions examined fit the definition of state terrorism per the various authors cited above, and that is the point supported by the cited references. They are all there for you to read and verify for yourself.Giovanni33 03:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I look forward to seeing exactly what it is you want to put in the article, and what the citations are for it. There is clearly no point in asking you here, or else no point in you telling me, so I will wait and see what edit you make to the article. Tom Harrison 04:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no mystery. The version I compromised with, is per talk, and which you reverted. I assume you reverted becaues it lacked a source other than Chomsky, which I'm happy to supply. The wording is: "Some scholars, such as Noam Chomsky, argue that the U.S. has been legally found guilty of state terrorism based on the verdict by International Court of Justice condemning the United States Government for its "unlawful use of force."Giovanni33 04:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course, Chomsky thinks that terrorism is justified if done by the right people. "In fact, Chomsky was well aware of the degree of violence that communist regimes had routinely directed at the people of their own countries. At the 1967 New York forum he acknowledged both 'the mass slaughter of landlords in China' and 'the slaughter of landlords in North Vietnam' that had taken place once the communists came to power. His main objective, however, was to provide a rationalization for this violence, especially that of the National Liberation Front then trying to take control of South Vietnam. Chomsky revealed he was no pacifist.

I don’t accept the view that we can just condemn the NLF terror, period, because it was so horrible. I think we really have to ask questions of comparative costs, ugly as that may sound. And if we are going to take a moral position on this—and I think we should—we have to ask both what the consequences were of using terror and not using terror. If it were true that the consequences of not using terror would be that the peasantry in Vietnam would continue to live in the state of the peasantry of the Philippines, then I think the use of terror would be justified."

"Yet Chomsky’s moral perspective is completely one-sided. No matter how great the crimes of the regimes he has favored, such as China, Vietnam, and Cambodia under the communists, Chomsky has never demanded their leaders be captured and tried for war crimes. Instead, he has defended these regimes for many years to the best of his ability through the use of evidence he must have realized was selective, deceptive, and in some cases invented."Ultramarine 15:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

This is off topic as this is about your opinion regarding Chomsky being even handed with respect to his expose of crimes of other states. The US mainstream media already does a good job at that while turning a blind eye to US crimes, so its good we have scholars like Chomsky who can put some balance back in and hold the US accountble to the same standards it applies to others. Also, this charge contains a logical fallacy, as pointing out what others do, does not negate the validity of the argument against the US. Giovanni33 00:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Chomsky has been extremely biased as the above link shows, both regarding the states he favors and those he disapprove of. Regarding the US mainstream media, studies have found that it has a bias exactly opposite of what you describe. It reports too much from nations where the US is involved, and to little from other nations. For example, by far the bloodiest recent conflict was the Second Congo War, involving 8 nations and causing millions of civilian deaths, which was almost completely ignored by the media.Ultramarine 00:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Everyone has bias, including you and me. So what? US media report based on its own biases, too, which often serve the agendas and interests of the elites of which they are a part of. Your example serves my very point. The genocide in the Congo is off the radar, but not Darfur, for example. Asking why is important and the answer has to do with the kind of selective reporting that the US media has always done, reflecting those same very biases, you are accusing Chomsky of. Well, as I said, his reporting is a good corrective balance to the mainstream medias own ideological filters. In either case, none of this invalidates the factual basis of any particular story.Giovanni33 04:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Title

Restore to Allegations of state terrorism by the United States

1. Tom Harrison 13:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Dchall1 13:57, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
3. (second choice)  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 00:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
4. Merzbow 16:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
5. (second choice)--MONGO 20:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
6. (2nd choice) Dman727 20:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
7. (second choice) Tbeatty 02:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
8. (2nd choice) - JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 03:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
9. (Second Choice) -- Yaf 04:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
10. 2nd choice (it's facts, not "allegations") // Liftarn
11. 2nd Choice. Per Liftarn, this article is about facts, not just "allegations."Giovanni33 10:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
12. Option b. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 12:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
13. No evidence has been presented that any international body has accused the United States of "state terrorism". It is only the allegations of some writers, Chomsky in particular.Ultramarine 15:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
14. 2nd choice, see note below. --Leifern 15:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
15. 2nd. Arkon 17:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
16. 2nd choice. ←Humus sapiens 20:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Keep State terrorism by the United States

1. Divestment 18:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)— Divestment (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
2. id keep it the name it is, cause its not about allegations ( leas the way it reads)Charred Feathers 04:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
3. Keep (1st choice) I'm ok either way but have a preference for keeping the title as it is simply because allegations is a weaker term and most of the facts presented in this article go far beyong mere accusation, to established facts and legal court verdicts. Since this article does list actual acts of state terrorism--not simply those who make accusations--this title is best. If it were the latter, then this article would get much much larger. So far those additions of well known allegations have not been allowed in. I don't see this article is an allegations article, but a neutral description of established facts that no one denies.Giovanni33 09:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Which court or international body has used the term "state terrorism"?Ultramarine 15:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

4. Keep (1st choice) // Liftarn
5. Keep name since it has been established the US took part in terrorism activities known today as Operation Condor, it is difficult to see why we are no allowed to call a spade a spade. Nomen Nescio 14:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Who has established that it was "state terrorism"?Ultramarine 15:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

6. Keep. When something has been established in a court it is no longer "alleged". As Nescio says, whether we like it or not, we need to call it what it is. --John 15:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Which court has used the term "state terrorism"?Ultramarine 15:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   The ICJ. What do you think they refered to when they found the US guilty of "unalwful use of force" and of actions that "violate international law? We don't have to guess since they talk about those accusations which were proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the court. In fact, the US has admitted to mining the harbors. If you don't think this is state terrorism, pretell, what do you call it? Verdict for these actions? Guilty.Giovanni33 20:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   No, the ICJ (with questionable jurisdiction) only found the US guilty of "unlawful use of force" and of actions that "violate international law". Equating this verdict to state terrorism would be equivalent to accusing Japan of state terrorism for hunting whales, although I suppose the whales might consider whale hunting to be state terrorism :-) Yaf 20:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   They never mention "state terrorism". It is like claiming that all persons found guilty in courts of breaking the law are terrorists.Ultramarine 20:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   No, the analogies are false. State terrorism is a controversial term, and not widely accepted which lacks the kind of legal clarity as a concept the court would use in its verdict. Thus it uses the established legal description of "violating international law," "unlawful force," etc. State terrorism is not the kind of wording a court would use to describe what this article describes as state terrorism. But, if you look at the kind of actions that US was found guilty of when it used "unlawful force" and broke "international law," you will see that those actions ARE classic and perfect examples of state terrorism. A correct analogy would be the court found the person guilty of "unlawfully and intentionally killing a person," and we report that the court found the US guilty of murder. The actions that the court looked at and found the US guilty of are specific and clear, so that there is no mistake that the criminal actions its condemned the US for was state-terrorism--as the definition is accepted and used in this article. That is why we have sources that state such is the case. Hence, its not merely an accusation, or allegation--its a verfict of guilty legally established as fact. We can report on these as facts, not merely allegations.Giovanni33 21:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   P.S. The ICJ's juristiction is not questionable. The US only refused to recognize it after it had lost its argument. But it is binding and juristiction was not in quesiton or contested prior. See: http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar05/Sanders0317.htmGiovanni33 22:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   If its not being recognized, then its questionable by definition. Dman727 22:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

For the guilty party to not recognize it after they lose, does not objectively make the issue questionable.Giovanni33 23:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesnt matter. This isnt small claims court. the ICJ gains it power only through voluntary recognition of its participants. If its being questioned by its participants, then its questionable regardless of whether you think its objective. Dman727 23:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Original research such as your own personal interpretation of what the court ruling means is not allowed in Misplaced Pages.Ultramarine 22:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You need to review OR, then. Its not original, I'm not coming up with anything new; its NOT original research to report on what scholars say, and then fully cite this by reputable, reliable sources. Nor it is OR to make simple deductive inferences that are logical and follow from the premise. Such is the common usage of language on WP. But, even this is a moot point since we are reporting what sources say, connecting this obvious dots of FACT.Giovanni33 23:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

"Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research." -- WP:OR Tom Harrison 23:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

This entire article is an exercise in WP:SYN. Most of the noteable incidents here already have their own articles and are covered there extensively. This is simply an extremist attempt to gather them all up and draw conclusions to fit one POV. Dman727 23:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Its interesting how you leave out the part of the policy that makes for an exception to this, and thus its NOT OR per policy. Policy goes on to explain: "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." Because have reliable sources that has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article, it stands as acceptable. You may not agree with that perspective, and you are free to counter it by reporting another valid source that dispute it, however, all sources I've seen clearly identifies this "unlawful use of force" as in fact fitting with all accepted definitions of state sponorsed terrorism, and not one argues that this violation the US was found guilty of is something else other than state terrorism.Giovanni33 23:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

No judicial body has been presented which says that the court ruling means that the US committed state terrorism.Ultramarine 23:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

We have Chomsky saying that it is "international terrorism", but that is just his allegation, not a fact.Ultramarine 23:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

<outdent Giovanni33, do you want to say "Chomsky says..."? Reporting what Chomsky says is okay with me. I thought you wanted to say as a matter of fact that it was so. Tom Harrison 23:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I want to say "some scholars, such as Chomsky, say..."But, it is a fact that these actions did occur, by whatever name you want to call it. Thus, there rise above mere someone making allegations. These are various descriptions of undisputed facts, which according to the definition we use, are actions of state sponored terrorism--ofcourse according to sources. But to attribute these facts to sources does not make then any less facts. That fact that we don't have any other opinion about it per the sources, futher underscores the point.Giovanni33 00:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Not a fact that it was state terrorism, allegations, which is what this discussion is about.Ultramarine 00:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, I only care about what you want to put in the article. So far, I have seen no citations to other scholars making the argument you want to attribute to them. Tom Harrison 00:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I did cite several other sources above, with links. I think you have seen then, and if not, nothing is stopping you from reading for yourself.Giovanni33 03:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it qualifies as a fact, not opinion. Unless you can show me a counter argument that disputes this logical connection.Giovanni33 00:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, see the above argument regarding OR. Also regarding Chomsky, he is speaking outside his academic field. Regarding the quote in the article it is from a television interview. Just his personal opinion.Ultramarine 00:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Point is moot since we cite other scholars who are not speaking outside their academic field, not to say Chomsky is not qualified to speak on the matter given his extensive published material and reasearch. And, besides the court case, there are various other claims of a factual nature, that are not mere opinion. Again, no one disputes these facts or offers another "opinion." They are as factual as the claim that the US committed acts of genocide against the Native Americans. Not opinion. Fact.Giovanni33 00:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Many of Chomsky's political books are collections of interviews and similar material. While there were many atrocities against Native Americans, that the US government has a deliberate policy of genocide would be controversial Also genocide is not a controversial term, accpeted in the international justice system, state terrorism is an controversial term not accepted. That the US have supported various dictatorships and rebells is a fact, that this was "state terrorism" is allegations.Ultramarine 01:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Repeatedly stating that something is "fact" when you have ten other editors telling you it's not so will not advance the discussion. - Merzbow 01:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, unless it's something you want to put in the article, I don't care. Tom Harrison 00:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Keep Lawarees 03:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)— lawarees (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
2. Strong KeepStone put to sky 10:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Do something else

1. Delete, (first choice)--MONGO 20:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Delete (first choice) --  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 00:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
3. Delete (first choice) Tbeatty 02:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
4. Delete Tom Harrison 02:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
5. Delete (1st choice) - JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 03:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
6. Delete (1st choice) - Most all of the actual verified events discussed here could be their own article. As it is, this is simply a collection intended to create a wp:syn pov. Dman727 04:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
7. Delete (first choice) - All of the content is from highly suspect sources with POV agendas (communist propaganda websites, etc. Clearly WP:SYN issues. Yaf 04:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   What happened to normal process, i.e. AfD? Nomen Nescio 08:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   The normal AfD process has resulted in several clear keeps. The reasons stated for wanting to delete are clearly POV driven but I guess this makes people feel better. To me it amounts to advocating a type of virtual book burning. Shameful.Giovanni33 09:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   I'd appreciate links to the AfDs if you have them. Tom Harrison 17:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Its right on this talk page at the very top.Giovanni33 20:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   I see American terrorism closed as 'no consensus', and State terrorism by United States of America closed once as 'no consensus' and once as 'keep'; Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America closed once as 'keep' and once as 'speedy keep'. Are these what you choose to call 'several clear keeps'? Tom Harrison 23:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

   Yes, they are clear keeps, several times, including one speedy keep. After an article has survived so many keeps, subsequent ones should just be speedy keeps.Giovanni33 00:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

   So what,Consensus can change. ←Humus sapiens 01:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

8. Delete, indubitably. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 12:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
9. Delete, first choice. Alleged crimes should be covered, but putting them under the blanket "terrorism" constitutes a double standard with respect to patently terrorist organizations such as Hamas, and actually dilutes the facts related to those crimes that have been alleged and/or committed. --Leifern 15:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
10. Delete - 1st. Arkon 17:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
11. Delete, 1st choice - Leifern said it well. ←Humus sapiens 20:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
12. Delete This entire article pretty much hinges on three episodes: the Cuban flight, Nicaragua, and SOA. The first one does not demonstrate that the government ordered it, just that it might have ignored warnings. The second stems from peoples attempts to make "unlawful use of force"=terrorism based on Chomsky. The third might be true but actual evidence is lacking. CJK 23:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Need for a New Page

Actually, the problem here is simple: there are many, many more accusations of terrorism by the United States than are being presented here. I propose, therefore, that we create that page that so many here have been calling for: the one called "Allegations of State Terrorism by the United States", wherein we present all allegations against the United States -- regardless of their perceived validity, slant, or merit -- as opposed to those which appear herein, and have been clearly substantiated and verified.

For instance, there are many allegations against the U.S. by states such as Zimbabwe (Mugabe, IMO, is a simple thug), N Korea (an embattled and marginalized dictatorship), Libya, China, Russia, and other State governments that are widely viewed as mere propaganda, posturing, or openly hypocritical and irrelevant to serious debate. By creating a page that lists these, i think we'd be able to please everyone here: we could separate the chaff from the wheat and demonstrate the clear, unarguable difference between the events described here (which are based in fact, widely disparaged by citizens of the United States, and openly contrary to the established principles on which most citizens of the U.S. think their government does or should operate) and the rather silly allegations and charges that marginalized states often level.

It would allow us all to make a clear distinction between the objections of a group like, say, Amnesty International, when it condemns U.S. and British complicity or inaction in the 1970s Ugandan genocide, in contrast to the claims of someone like Idi Amin, who sought to divert blame from himself onto the handlers who brought him to power. Clearly, one source is much more believable and valuable than the other.

Regardless, the page as it currently stands is clearly based in fact; ALL of the various objections and complaints currently being aired have withstood the challenge of re-examination many, many times over. Many of these facts have been posted on this board for nearly half a decade. In that time they have survived unremitting, tendentious assaults, all the while receiving clear and unambiguous endorsement by hundreds -- if not thousands -- of conscientious and skilled wikipedia editors and *-ops.

Meanwhile, of the editors currently protesting the current manifestation of this article, Devonshire, TDC and MONGO have each been the recipients of equally clear and unambiguous disciplinary action for their political posturing and abuse of the wiki system. Several of their comrades have been summarily banned from the Wiki pages, most notably among them "NuclearUmpf", who was herein an earlier protagonist of similar behavior. Tom Harrison -- like a few of the others who pop in from time to time -- has never ceased to join this group in calling for the deletion of this page.

This is all very tragic, i think. The fact that this page has received the overwhelming endorsement from the International wiki community is lost on these few. They seem completely numb to the possibility that their own viewpoints are wildly skewed from mainstream, international opinion, and -- unfortunately for those of us who try to maintain this page -- are utterly incapable of reconsidering their own nationalist, partisan sentiments.

The arguments to remove or further water-down this article are vapid and without merit, nor is there any justification for the qualifiers and obsequies currently being promoted. Those who insist on these qualifiers have, many times over, confirmed their utter rejection of this article's very existence -- as they do once again, above, in what is apparently a cynical challenge to firmly established, uncontroversial wikipedia protocol.

The insistence upon "contextualizing" behavior which clearly runs against the agreed upon laws, principles and morality of the wider American people is absurd. The insistence that clearly defined words like "terrorism" may not be applied to widely reported events is absurd. Moreover, any objections that it is the duty of wiki readers to accept -- against all verifiable facts, interpretation, and recorded experience -- unsubstantiated suspicions, opinions and prejudices is absurd.

These last couple of weeks i have seen from this crew -- MONGO, Devonshire, TDC, Harrison, and the people who chime in with them -- nothing more than a series of weak rhetorical postures, not a single one of which is based in any form of fact or substantiation. There have been no challenges to the facts presented, only assertions that these widely reported and analyzed events are not "factual" enough. There have been no demonstrations of an error in research, only repeated accusation that the arguments are invalid. Nor has there been any serious challenge to the sources and archives of these facts and events, but instead a litany of misbegotten opinions that claim to a wide social omniscience.

Instead of solidly argued, fact-based challenges of the ideas, sources and events presented here, we are instead being treated to an energetic exercise in content-free medial "spin" by people who apparently think history was acted out and written by men and women who composed their ideas with an 8th grade vocabulary pruned to 20 second sound-bites. It's a shame that my fellow countrymen feel so fearful as to seek the constraint and limitation of soundly argued, free spirited reasoning, and no doubt a shame that has the true american patriots of bygone years spinning in their various graves. Stone put to sky 10:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Read the WP:NPA policy before you post again.--MONGO 10:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see some proof that I have been one of the "recipients of equally clear and unambiguous disciplinary action for their political posturing and abuse of the wiki system"--MONGO 10:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Were you not de-sysopped?

Further, i have read the WP:NPA. It states that "epithets...dismissing or discrediting views ...Threats of legal action...violence...vandalism... which expose editors to persecution......Insulting or disparaging an editor" qualify as a general outline of what a "personal attack" might be.

Please point out where my words above qualify under any of these measures -- or even something less obvious, unlisted by the WP:NPA but clearly in its spirit. As i have said: i will be happy to reconsider what i have written if you will simply point out to me where it is that i have erred.

I have no problem apologizing. It seems odd to me that i have had to ask four times, now, for clarification. If the offense is so clear as to warrant action, it seems to me that you could have merely stated it clearly and it would already be removed by now. Do you have some reason for not clarifying? Stone put to sky 11:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. I was not desysopped for political abuse...that is a lie. Yes, you did above and have several other times recently Insulted and disparaged an editor (more than one editor), naming others by name, and trying to discredit them instead of their arguments. This has been discussed with you now several times.--MONGO 11:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Really? Then perhaps i'm wrong. Would you like to explain why you were de-sysopped? Please correct me if my assumption is wrong, but it seems to me that being de-sysopped quite clearly implies that your responsibilities were -- after repeated warnings, and in what was considered quite a rare action by the sys-op board (i'm sorry, but i don't know their official title) -- revoked because of mis-use.

Further, i would like to protest that i have not "insulted and disparaged" anyone personally. I am very scrupulous about that. There have been repeated threats made against me, by quite a few of the posters here -- TDC, you, and Devonshire in particular (and your friend from long ago, NuclearUmpf) -- but i have tried quite diligently to avoid making any sort of personal attack.

Finally, i would like to say how i think it very odd you have removed Devonshire's clear violation of Misplaced Pages policy -- and something which clearly qualified as a "personal attack" -- without a warning, while you repeatedly level warnings and threats against my own person. Is there a double-standard at work here, MONGO? Stone put to sky 11:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

MONGO, you know i am not a sock account. My posts here are made in good faith. Would you please stop harassing me? Stone put to sky 11:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

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