Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:45, 14 June 2007

This page was nominated for deletion on 23 May 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Wording

Under "purpose", David Gerard prefers the wording, "You might be wrong!" Two other editors prefer, "You might be wrong about whether or not you really have a consensus, and you will be held responsible for anything you do, regardless of the IRC discussion that preceded it." Anyone else have an opinion? --Elonka 20:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Under "purpose", one of the channel wizards worded it a given way, and zero channel wizards disputed this - David Gerard 20:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, please reread m:Instruction creep. If they don't understand already, they're not clueful enough to be admins. - David Gerard 20:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that's way too harsh. Sorry for being asslike there. What I mean is, this is a description of what the channel is for, and that includes assuming good judgement already exists. If we have to detail good judgement, the reader shouldn't be on the channel. If we have to detail the penalties for cluelessness, the reader shouldn't be on the channel. If someone proves to be clueless on the channel, I kick them off - David Gerard 21:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I should of course note that this has yet to happen. Though could the log leaker please cool it? Thanks - David Gerard 15:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Incomprehensible

I consider myself reasonably computer literate, but the instructions at Sean Whitton's toolserver start off by asking "Register your nickname on freenode using the information here. You must register and link an alternate nickname and set an e-mail address.". The associated link to http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup advises that to register one needs to "/msg nickserv register <your-password>". I'm being dense here, but the page has no entry box to enter this into, nor gives any clue as to some other program to use... David Ruben 03:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What program do you use? There should be an input box at the bottom under the channel window (i.e. where you type to talk). John Reaves (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Computers are stupid, annoying and don't work. IRC is no exception. There's a reason IM gained popularity the way IRC never did - David Gerard 15:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

A lot of people make a lot of money from computers being stupid. :) (points at self and David too). Well anyway, I use ChatZilla as an IRC client, it works well with Firefox... there are lots of others, you can get some idea if you read the main IRC article. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 12:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Cloaks

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me - why are cloaks being required for access? /cs access #wikipedia-en-admins add user 5 should work just as well whether cloaked or not. Would it not make sense just to require users to be identified? Martinp23 20:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Cloaks are not required (unless they are for new users). I don't have one. Chick Bowen 02:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I know that they aren't required for physical access /cs invite #wikipedia-en-admins, but am wondering why they are being required on this page for no seemingly good reason... Martinp23 06:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

For my convenience mostly ;-) They're not mandatory, but they're still a good idea - David Gerard 15:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You have to have a cloak to get an invite exemption (so you don't have to self invite every time) is how it was explained to me way back when. I don't think we give invite exemptions any more, or at least I heard a rumor to that effect, something about too many being a drag on servers, or hard to administer, or something, I forget. Second, I at least intend not to give channel access unless you either have a cloak, or are online at the time I grant it and can satisfy me of your bonafides. (I use the "mail you a silly but unique phrase via your onwiki email and make you parrot it back to me" test, and I get to your onwiki email by going to your successful RfA)... I do think they're a good idea in and of themselves too. Hope that helps.++Lar: t/c 11:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Lizards, monkeys and picture

<catmacro license=gfdl>I APPROVE OF THIS EDIT</catmacro> - David Gerard 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Not private

Users on this channel should be aware that unencrypted text sent over a web of servers via an insecure server/client structure is not private. Beyond this, they should have no expectation of privacy if they do wrong things, like, say, going on an insane blocking spree. I have removed the expectation of privacy. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Erm, I humbly object. There's an established tradition of communicating logs to the arbitration committee when necessary, but we simply cannot have a policy here that contradicts freenode policy. You should revert yourself. Mackensen (talk) 14:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I disagree. We can certainly have a policy here that contradicts freenode policy. Freenode policy is binding only on signatories to that policy. "The Wikimedia Foundation," has not bound themselves to any such policy. Beyond that, as a Section 230 service provider, we are neither the publisher nor speaker of material on the site. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
    • The foundation doesn't have to. The foundation has nothing to do with this. When I use freenode's services I consent to their terms of service, just as I do with Misplaced Pages. If I violate those terms of services I can expect to be banned from either site. Mackensen (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes, users who repost logs on wikipedia may face sanction at freenode, though I do not see a freenode policy prohibiting this. Users who repost logs on wikipedia might be banned from the channel because the channel has no relation to wikipedia at all and may have policies that are at odds with a 💕 that anyone can edit. They will not, however, face sanction at wikipedia, because wikipedia does not prohibit reposting IRC logs. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Let me see if I understand you. You are encouraging the creation of a policy whose intent is to undermine the policies of an unrelated site so that events which have no relation to Misplaced Pages may be published on Misplaced Pages–none of which has anything to do with the encyclopedia itself? Is this correct? Mackensen (talk) 17:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
          • If this has nothing to do with the encyclopedia, why do we have this page? Why was there a prior statement informing editors that some irc channel totally unrelated to wikipedia was "private?" Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
          • The existance of this page sure makes it seem like this chat room does have something to do with Misplaced Pages. Friday (talk) 17:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
            • Then by all means let's delete everything that has nothing to do with the encyclopedia? Be serious. I said that logs from an IRC channel have nothing to do with the encyclopedia. This is factual. They're not about to be added to the article space, are they? The encyclopedia != the project. They are separate concepts and should be treated as such. These and other pages describes to editors how to gain access to various IRC channels where Wikipedians congregate. This is a useful function. It is also not official in any way. I do not see a contradiction here. You'll have to tell me what 'official' would be; I haven't gotten an answer to that. I also haven't gotten an answer to my last question to Hipocrite, and your last statement seems to me to be a complete non sequitor. Mackensen (talk) 17:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Does this page need to be on Misplaced Pages?

I realize there's no making the channel go away, but why have a page referring to it? It has no official connection to Misplaced Pages, right? Why should this be mentioned on a project page any more than any other chat room should be mentioned? If it's unofficial, let's have it be unofficial. Friday (talk) 14:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Depends what one means by official. I know some WikiProjects have their own IRC channels and mention them on the project pages--are these official? Mackensen (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

What I'm getting at is: I was about to reach for the MFD button, and I thought it would be polite to raise the question here first. Make this a "Wikiproject:James's chat room buddies" or something, then. Make it clear that it's just another chatroom, out of the millions. People thinking this room has anything at all to do with Misplaced Pages causes us problems, with no offsetting advantage. If I want to promote my personal chatroom, Misplaced Pages is not the place for it. Friday (talk) 14:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Call it what you like. No one regards the channel as official, and if the administrator whose actions caused this had actually read this page he'd have known better. I'd rather have a page making it clear what the situation is–we didn't use to have one, and people were unclear where they stood. We all know how effective that was. Mackensen (talk) 17:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Eh, we have a difference of opinion. Now at MFD for wider input. Friday (talk) 17:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo

It was alleged that the privacy of this travesty was done by fiat of Jimbo. Is this accurate or not? Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not aware of Jimbo ordering up any travesty by fiat. Please don't beg the question. Mackensen (talk) 17:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Idiocy

The above discussions and the MfD are simply idiocy. First, here is Freenode's policy on logs ,

If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through. The freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public channels, most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that they'll be enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants publish logs.

If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, and get permission from the channel owners before you start. If you're thinking of "anonymizing" your logs (removing information that identifies the specific users), be aware that it's difficult to do it well—replies and general context often provide identifying information which is hard to filter.

If you just want to publish a single conversation, be careful to get permission from each participant. Provide as much context as you can. Avoid the temptation to publish or distribute logs without permission in order to portray someone in a bad light. The reputation you save will most likely be your own.

Second James Forrester is the former Freenode group contact and the highest ranking chanop, and he has endorsed the "no publication of logs".

Third, UninvitedCompany offered specific advice on how the "community" could take over ownership of the #wikipedia freenode channels. In general (I can't find the exact statement but similar views are here and here), if the community adopted a policy and a process for selecting an official group contact, that would probably be recognized by Freenode. This would enable the community to set or change whatever policies it wanted to—anything from making them official wikipedia communications with the logs publicly archived to closing the channels entirely.

So if you want to change the world, or at least the IRC admins channel, then do it. Whinging about it or trying to delete its description page to make a point is a waste of everyone's time. Thatcher131 18:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not pointmaking- I actually do believe the page should go away. I have no interest in fixing irc. Remove mention of this from Misplaced Pages, and I no longer care about it. Yes, I expected the chatters would show up and say "Keep, I like it", but maybe we'll get input from others too. Friday (talk) 18:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Therefore, you did not care about IRC before this page came into existence? What about Misplaced Pages:IRC channels? Those aren't 'official' either. Mackensen (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This one is apparently invite only, owned by a single person, so I see it as a worse problem. Gotta start somewhere. Friday (talk) 18:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ahem, sorry to butt in, but, I "own" the whole lot of them.

James F. (talk) 19:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, here I was afraid you actually had a policy objection. We don't delete things out of personal pique. If the official/unofficial distinction is a problem then not starting with Misplaced Pages:IRC channels is disingenous. Mackensen (talk) 18:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Bad faith? Now that's just silly. Friday (talk) 18:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:IRC channels is very clear that it's totally and completly unofficial. It also doesn't use Misplaced Pages as a verification service for someones private IRC channel. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone were using a Misplaced Pages page to actively solicit an audience for some other chat room or website, I would want that deleted as well. Friday (talk) 18:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Chutzpah

Is there some way we could work this crucial word into the page? Either that or its close Australian relative Larrikin. This isn't an endorsement of either article, by the way. Both are in bad need of cleanup. --Tony Sidaway 22:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)