Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:06, 17 June 2007

Biography: Core B‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This article is listed on the project's core biographies page.

Islam B‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

There is a request, submitted by Menasim( discuss), for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages. The rationale behind the request is: "An important Article about an important person".

	Muhammad was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 7, 2005 Peer review Reviewed January 8, 2006 Good article nominee Listed March 30, 2006 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

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Archives
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 16 Image archive Mediation Archives Request for Clarification/Muslim Guild Statements Clarity discussion/Refining positions Ars' final archive The rest of the mediation by Ars Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8

Name

I think the first mention of his name should be in full? As in "Muhammad ibn Abdullah". 124.82.0.228 02:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Images of Prophet Mohammad

the images should be removed from the article as those fake images taking the article no where and even all the muslims cant bear the endurance as you know what happened when in french newspaper we have seen the images of Mohammad Peace be upon him.we are demanding to remove the images only & for the article we have no comments try to face realism the pictures posted here not true. Kashif Sagheer Ahmed 7:40 13/06/007

Please feel free to issue demands, and threats of violence, as much as you like; you merely condemn yourself. The images will not be removed, because they improve the article. All important historical figures in Misplaced Pages have pictures, even though in most cases the pictures are not contemporary. But even more importantly, Misplaced Pages is not censored, and does not submit to the dictates of any religion. TharkunColl 07:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, he has a point. Kashif may not have expressed himself well, but he has a point. Even if we disregard religious sensitivity, the two picture with Muhammad's face revealed come from 1315 and the 15th century. I do not think any artist who saw Muhammad lived that long. I politely request that these two images in particular be removed, or at least the face be blurred.Unflavoured 03:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

my freind we are not threatening its your way to see things i am tilting your mind towards the things that are not good & you are the one who is leading the fire for muslims by saying bad things towards us & every body can see i am requesting only & you better check your attitude that so many times you've crossed the limit of decency. & kindly avoid the factors of Racism and we are not dictating it is our right you know very well how anyone can dictate you this is only an agression towards muslims from your side like you've abused our prophet by using very bad words. what it reflects, is that you got some problem with us any how i will keep on working by demanding to remove the (FAKE) images as he is our prophet & we dont want his images to be published in this way & dont create a big issue of such a small thing as if you'll remove the images from the page nothing will hurt the importance of an article if it is in this way the bible should have the images then to prove its importance & truthfulness. & yes if you got the real images feel free to post it here. Kashif Ahmed.7:22 14/06/007

The Muslims do not own Muhammad; he is an important figure in history for the entire human race, for good or ill - like Julius Caesar, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, or indeed any other military and religious leader. Muslims therefore have no right whatsoever to dictate what goes into this article. And is it abusing Muhammad to speak the truth? Did he, or did he not, marry a 6 year old girl? Does that, or does it not, make him a paedophile? TharkunColl 08:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Kashif Ahmed, why dont u register your name ?! Wikipedians in general are highly biased AGAINST those who register. Then we can have a fair discussion with whoever wants to discuss these images.Unflavoured 04:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The article does not claim that these images are an exact likeness, rather they are perceptions of his likeness made after his life was long over. This is obvious to anyone viewing the article. The images are not attacks on Mohammad either in the way they were rendered or in the way they are displayed in the article. Note that the article on Jesus also includes images of him that were created several centuries after his death. The "controversial" images displayed in the Dutch Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, are not included in this article. Further, please note that Misplaced Pages intends to be an encyclopedia, not a holy text that as to "prove its importance and truthfulness." These images are important to this article because the article discusses the important topic of the representation of Mohammad over time. The images are not distasteful, rather they included as part of an encyclopedic discussion of history and art history. --Strothra 04:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

i am already registered here but it seems that you are right. but my my freind we got to do something as it is hurting & disturbing.Kashif Ahmed.--Noshikashi. 06:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh for crying out loud, Kashif Ahmed, what's wrong with you? What racism? In what way was TharkunColl being racist? Do you even know what racism is? All he said is that the pictures stay. How is that racism? Look, I understand that Muhammad is a holy guy to you and that you seem to worship him, but, as it is right now, this is a Misplaced Pages entry about Muhammad. This is not meant to be some kind of religious article about Muhammad; the purpose with this article is to be a well informed, encyclopaedic article about a historic figure, with whatever information available—pictures included. You might find the pictures depicting Muhammad objectionable, but Misplaced Pages isn't about censorship. Whatever the case, the pictures stay, and that's not racism. Knock it off with this ridiculous victim-mentality. EliasAlucard|Talk 12:12, 14 Jun, 2007 (UTC)

I am from a highly muslim family and to be honest i can see nothing wrong with the pictures, they're merely an artists rendition of Muhammad. as previously mentioned, Muhammad was an extremely important figure in world history and although the Shariah states his face should not be shown, this does not mean non-muslims cannot look at representations of Him.


I meant to say AGAINST those who dont* register. Also: "Oh for crying out loud, Kashif Ahmed, what's wrong with you? What racism?", Alucard, I already pointed out that Kashif has a difficulty in expressing himself, so don't use that against him. Its pretty clear that English is not his first language, but I hope that you won't let that affect your judgement of what he is saying. Can we please have an informative discussion about this !? I have several points to make, and I think that this is not so enormous an issue to YOU that it will ruin the article, but it is a very important thing to a Muslim.
1- the pictures (the two of them that show Muhammad's face) do not add any value to the article.

That is simply untrue; they add a great deal to the article. They show the ways in which Muslims have depicted Muhammad over the centuries. TharkunColl 08:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

2- There is a picture with his face veiled. Muhammad did not wear a veil, but this is both informative (it tell the reader that Islamic tradition forbids pictures of Muhammad) and it shows sensitivity. Why can't you add two more pictures like those, and delete the ones with Muhammad face ?! Please note that some Muslims object to any illustration that has any Prophet in it, but at least the pic I mentioned (with veil) is respectful

To do as you suggest would distort the historical record, and make it seem as if Muslims have never depicted Muhammad without a veil. But this, of course, is untrue. TharkunColl 08:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

3- Like it or not, there is such a thing as religious sensitivity, courtesy, and respect. I think that wikipedia is not the place to intentionally hurt others, and you by now know that Muslims are hurt by pictures with our Prophet in them. If there are two alternatives, it would make sense to choose the less offensive of the two. Saying: "NO CENSORSHIP" and going with a less appealing format.....shows a bit of hard-headedness.

Our overriding purpose is to present the facts of the matter, and the fact is that Muslims have made pictures of Muhammad. As for causing offense, such a thing cannot be avoided in the pursuit of truth. Should we, for example, censor the article on Adolf Hitler to appease the Nazis? TharkunColl 08:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

4- The Dutch cartoons do not appear in this article, they appear in another article. Why ? Because I believe the wiki community came to the consensus that it would contribute nothing to your knowledge of this man, to see a few cartoons drawn in the 21st century that show him in an... let's say objectionable way. Couldn't we make a parallel argument ?!

No, because the current images were made by Muslims in centuries past, and are perfectly respectful. Personally, I think the Danish cartoons do have a place in this article, because of the reaction they engendered - and so you see, I have compromised too. TharkunColl 08:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

If you believe that these picture are very important and contribute valuable information to this article, then please tell me how. Thank you.
Note to Kashif: When you are the genuine victim, you will told: "Oh for crying out loud, don't pretend to be a victim!!". Other people rarely feel your pain, since not everyone was brought up to be religiously sensitive.
Note to "I am from a highly muslim family": This page will be visited by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. We should have a format that is acceptable to both. Unflavoured 01:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The reason the Danish cartoons do not appear in this article is because the are off-topic. The cartoon incident isn't important enough relative to Muhammad to be covered. Were there a section discussing them and their impact, then an picture of them would be completely appropriate.Proabivouac 01:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Off-topic. Exactly. Thank you. If I wanted to see them, I can go to that page. I repeat: "Couldn't we make a parallel argument ?!". And my first 3 points, please do not skip those. Again, thank you.Unflavoured 02:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is about Muhammad, and as such depictions of Muhammad couldn't be more topical. It has nothing to do with whether you want to see them. You might not wish to see them on Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy either, but there they are. The best way to avoid seeing depictions of something is to avoid visiting articles which are related to that thing, so…Proabivouac 02:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This has already been discussed to the point of exhaustion, and we still came to the conclusion that the images are valid. Here is a summary: Talk:Muhammad/images#The_mediation--_in_comical_screenplay_form. 02:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussed to the point of exhaustion? You are well aware that consensus may change, and Misplaced Pages is open for editing and discussion ?!

Proabivouac, you said:"So..." So what exactly !? I cannot complete your sentence myself, but I will assume good faith. I think you've missed my point completely. Please reread what I wrote, since you seem to be skimming over my words. If not, I can re-state.Unflavoured 02:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"So…" if you don't like seeing depictions of Muhammad, avoid articles such as this one where they might be topical.Proabivouac 02:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Avoiding an article does not improve it, and your recommendation does not solve the controversy.

I would like to put a large red arrow pointing to my second post, and will wait for 2-3 days for a response.Unflavoured 03:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Unflavoured, you wrote, regarding the Jyllands-Posten cartoons, "If I wanted to see them, I can go to that page." That's what I responded to.Proabivouac 03:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Here's the deal guys: you may find these pictures 'offensive' for several reasons, specifically, religious reasons. That's fine. But here on Misplaced Pages, we do not take concern to such qualms. For instance, Jews find it problematic that Christians regard Jesus Christ as the son of God. We're not deleting such information on Misplaced Pages just to appease Jews. Christians find it problematic that Jews claim Jesus Christ was not the awaited Messiah. We do not delete Jews' point of views on Jesus just to make Christians feel better about it. Case in point: you'll have to survive these depictions of Muhammad being shown in this article. There are pictures of Jesus in his Misplaced Pages entry, and you don't see or hear Christians complain about it. Why can't you Muslims be the same about this? Is it not so, that you consider Jesus a prophet of Islam as well (Isa)? If the answer is yes, why don't you complain on his article about depictions of Jesus? Correct me if I'm wrong, but could it possibly be because you worship Muhammad more than Jesus? Either way, this isn't a theological discussion. The pictures, unless they're not fair use or not in public domain, are allowed to be used in Misplaced Pages articles. You may not like it, but you'll have to live through with it. Misplaced Pages is all about being factual with every important historical content available. That includes pictures. We're not going to change that just because some people lose sleep at night over it. EliasAlucard|Talk 11:12, 15 Jun, 2007 (UTC)

ok that's all now, unflavoured you are a right person but at the wrong place because no body will listen to you as they got a mind setup from the begening they dont know how disturbing these images are to us they are not wrong its a matter of opinion which fluctuates in between us. if i have offended any one by any means for that, i realy express regrets towards them.i have tried a lot to elaborate my opinion but all in vain.if you are saying pictures stays ok it stays its your job & you knows the best but as a muslim its not allowed in our religion to make pictures of our prophets any of them & on that basis i was requesting you to remove it.Kashif Ahmed--Kashi. 05:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Sargis Bkheera

I'm of the opinion that this article should mention his Assyrian monk teacher, and it would be great if any of you Islam experts could help out improving that article. Thanks. EliasAlucard|Talk 22:19, 13 Jun, 2007 (UTC)

academic sources refer to him as Bahira, and states that they met in passing. the notion of him being a teacher is dismissed in academic circles as medieval polemic (cf. Encyclopedia of Islam). ITAQALLAH 18:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Please continue this discussion on Talk:Sargis Bkheera's talk page. Thanks. EliasAlucard|Talk 20:45, 14 Jun, 2007 (UTC)

Proposed talk subpage

I believe its time to create a subpage of this talk page, where complaints about or any other general comments regarding the display of depictions can be moved, along with a notice on this one similar to that found on Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy to the effect that any such comments placed on this main talk page may be moved or deleted.Proabivouac 01:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I reject the suggestion. -- A. L. M. 08:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Why?Proabivouac 08:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It has no comparision with Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy to begin with. I find no good reason to treat a group that you disagree and remove there comments or move to some subpage. -- A. L. M. 08:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not proposing to redirect comments by POV, but by subject, including what comments I have made and any I might make about the same issue. The good reason is to restore the functionality of the talk page. Are you for that or against that?Proabivouac 08:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I cannot trust you on this issue. I think you are not neutral (just like me) on this issue. So keep the status quo, please. otherwise let someone neutral decide (not you). --- A. L. M. 08:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd go for it. It seems to work well, and would free up the main talk page for people to focus on ways to improve the current article that aren't related to the image issue. But, there has to be understanding that being on a subpage doesn't make the comments posted there less-valuable or otherwise "second-class". We've had a separate talk page for this issue in the past, seems like it would make sense to have one here for the same reasons that they have one at Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. --Alecmconroy 12:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Totally unacceptable to me. BYT 14:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

BYT, you write bellow, "whose terminating point is inevitably a decision to spark (intentional, in my view) recrimination and religiously-driven bickering," yet here and ALM you seem to insist that the pointless bickering continue. As ALM may as well have answered this question, I'll ask you: the goal is to restore the functionality of this talk page. Are you for that or against that?Proabivouac 16:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

Heh heh, ok, but you deleted the "Could we not make a parallel argument" part, Proabivouac. It is the part that matters most. Listen, I really want this article to be informative and encyclopedic (not sure how you spell 'encyclopedic'). Take a look at the page:Depictions of Muhammad. It has a cartoon image from south park. THAT is not encyclopedic, it just... silly. Jesus appeared on south park too, and his image is not on his depictions page. But that is another argument.
All historically important people have pictures, depictions, true. WP is not censored, true. But WP is open to editing, and WP entries should be civil to everyone, and should not intentionally insult or offend. The comment "Whatever the case, the pictures stay" made by Alucard only show... what exactly !?
It will be a long long long long discussion, and doubtless, whether the pics stay or are removed, there will be long long long long discussion between others later. I am sure the collective minds that made WP what it is today can come with something that is acceptable by all, no !?
So I ask: if this current article is not acceptable to all, should we not work to improve it ?! Or is it: "Whatever the case, the pictures stay" ?!
I thank you for your patience and civility.Unflavoured 04:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"It will be a long long long long discussion."

It already has been a long long long long discussion. Do you have something to say which hasn't been said before? Read the archives before you answer that.Proabivouac 04:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I am reading it now. In the meantime, the article has 13 images (estimate), so IF I remove two of them, will the article be affected !? What if I replace them ?!Unflavoured 08:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of the images are not depictions.Proabivouac 08:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

That's why I won't touch them. Just two out of 13 ?! I know there is a 'be bold' policy and there is also a counter 'revert' policy and another 50 policies. Just the ones with the face showing. The one where he has a yard long beard and hair (near middle years), and the one that shows him being almost Chinese (next to Etymology). What if I promise you that 1.2 BILLION people will be satisfied, and will NOT remove any other image, and all debate will end !? Unflavoured 08:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Any attempt at religious censorship will be reverted. TharkunColl 10:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

That's right. Religious censorship will not be tolerated on Misplaced Pages, and that goes for all religions. EliasAlucard|Talk 12:16, 15 Jun, 2007 (UTC)

Continuing to recycle old arguments is unlikely to change the consensus - and for an excellent reason: The consensus that exists now reflects the purpose of Misplaced Pages, proposed alternatives by and large do not. Ultimately, editors who are not here to inform and educate, but to control the flow of information find themselves disappointed. Most Misplaced Pages editors didn't come here to make people happy but to educate them and make them strong. Any proposal that aims to do the first at the expense of the second isn't likely to go well, and this is no exception. And truth be told, I don't think removing the images would really make many people happy - certainly not as many as it would make unhappy. So there's little benefit there. WilyD 13:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Unflavoured, it is my sad duty to inform you that the era of civility has long passed here. For the record, removing the images would certainly make ME happy, if only because it would put aside this absurd, polarizing, and endlessly recycled conversation, whose terminating point is inevitably a decision to spark (intentional, in my view) recrimination and religiously-driven bickering. We had a system that worked; now we have this. BYT 13:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Removing the images would make me happy, too. I don't think there's any guideline that says being educational has to be the only criterion for decisions about Misplaced Pages content. Other criteria include beauty, grammatical correctness, entertainment value etc. Avoiding offending a billion people while requiring some others to do one extra click of the mouse seems an obviously positive tradeoff to me. In fact, it's more educational that way: in the process of doing that extra click, some people will learn something about the Muslim religion and its attitude towards images. I think that's significantly more educational than seeing one of the pictures. --Coppertwig 22:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

One might just as easily say that by appending "(p.b.u.h.)" to every mention of Muhammad's name, we'll help people learn something about the Muslim religion and its attitude towards Muhammad, or that by hiding potentially controversial statements in Communist Party of China behind a click, we'll help people learn what political dialogue is like in China. We do not usually inform readers of taboos or other points of religious protocol by following them.Proabivouac 22:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad is enormously significant outside of Islam. Completely ignoring his contributions to Islam, Muhammad is still one of the 25 or so most influential humans in history. A point everybody who argues for deletion seems to completely miss. WilyD 23:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Who wants censorship ?! Why is every attempt at discussion countered with 'censorship is not allowed' ?! There are plenty of pictures in the article, more than the Jesus article ! Why is no one saying: "The Jesus article is being censored!" ?! Because it isn't. Neither is this article. I am going to make a few changes, with the aim of improving (the article, not censoring it. You can revert at will, for reverting and censorship is none of my concern. The purpose of WP is to inform, not conform, to either the strict Muslim practice of never showing anything related to Muhammad, or the notion that every single possible picture MUST be included in an article, regardless of whether it reduces the quality of the article or not. Unflavoured 01:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is every attempt at discussion countered with 'censorship is not allowed'?"

Because it isn't.

"the notion that every single possible picture MUST be included in an article, regardless of whether it reduces the quality of the article or not."

I'm not aware that anyone has taken this position.Proabivouac 01:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are not aware, then read some of the responses above. Unflavoured 01:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Give me an example.Proabivouac 01:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• Who wants censorship ?! Why is every attempt at discussion countered with 'censorship is not allowed' ?! - Apparently, Muslims want censorship. They want to remove the pictures of Muhammad because they feel offended by just looking at them. What's that, if not censorship? EliasAlucard|Talk 09:49 17 Jun, 2007 (UTC)

Is discussion at all possible?

"Whatever the case, the pictures stay" This is an example. Just in case you missed it the fourth time too, "Whatever the case, the pictures stay". I have already asked, what does this show ?! You declined to answer. You also decline to discuss practically everything I wrote. But you did recommend that I read the discussion, and I said I am reading it now. I also said that I will wait for 2-3 days, so please give me a chance to fully read through the previous archives, for they are quite long. I hope that you will not object to any changes that improve the article, and I hope that you notice that I did not ask to remove all the pictures, and not all depictions either. As I am taking the time to read the archives, I would like you to reread my posts above. Unflavoured 02:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

We have discussed the pictures for several months now, and I think most of the users are sick and tired of it, and just want to worry about other things. At the same time, we had a general consensus to include images. Don't take it as rudeness, we are just frustrated about having to repeat ourselves by continuing this really long discussion.--sefringle 03:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

No offense taken from anyone, but so far, the responses have been quite... blunt. Anyway, There is too much info and archives and article histories for me to even attempt anything at the moment. For clarification, I won't change article just yet, and I won't do so without discussing it first. But I am reading and reading and...reading. Give me time to make a coherent case. Thanks. Unflavoured 03:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion is possible - but unproductive unless there's something new to discuss. Editors (on all sides) are blunt because we want to hurry along a discussion we already know the ending to. Bluntness is an excellent quality in a discussion (not necessarily an article). Cheers, WilyD 04:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Unflavored-- basically, anyone wanting to remove image is going to face a huge uphill battle in doing so. I'm sure that does sound, to you, like saying "Whatever the case, the pictures stay". A better way to put it would be: As long as Misplaced Pages is not censored and Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia remain two of the fundamental policies of the project, the pictures will probably stay. While those two are in place, whenever we face a choice between "being informative" and "being non-offensive", informative is going to win. As is, considerations about potentially offending people really don't enter into the equation-- if something is encyclopedic, it doesn't matter how many people would get offended.

Fortunately, it's a big internet. Muslims wanting to have an encyclopedia that respects Muslim traditions can make their own Misplaced Pages, just as many conservative Christians have done with Conservapedia. And of course, people could lobby for repealing Misplaced Pages is not censored and Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and while I don't think that's likely to happen, there is nothing that stops you from trying.

But do take the time to actually address changing the fundamental policies, changing the consensus of how those policies apply, or appealing to ARBCOM, as ALM has suggested he may do. But just Being bold and deleting images won't accomplish anything-- people will just revert your changes on sight, and people will just get more riled up again.

--Alecmconroy 13:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Bring up a point that has not already been discussed to death and we will talk about it. But all that has been presented here by so many people is a rehashing of the same arguments that were rejected in mediation. It is pretty much granted that people are going to ask us to take down the images forever, every week, till the world ends. But unless they have a new reason, it is not new. 13:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

ok that's all now, unflavoured you are a right person but at the wrong place because no body will listen to you as they got a mind setup from the begening they dont know how disturbing these images are to us they are not wrong its a matter of opinion which fluctuates in between us. if i have offended any one by any means for that, i realy express regrets towards them.i have tried a lot to elaborate my opinion but all in vain.if you are saying pictures stays ok it stays its your job & you knows the best but as a muslim its not allowed in our religion to make pictures of our prophets any of them & on that basis i was requesting you to remove it. it's been nice to hear that we (muslims)create our own site which reflects our own tradition hehe my answer is we dont need this you guys are enough to promote us & as far as the matter of pictures i say MIGHT IS RIGHT you got the power you can hurt any one.Kashif Ahmed--212.24.224.17 07:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

If you truly feel hurt by only looking at pictures, then no offense, but you are a moron. Listen, this has got to stop. You can't run around and try to control everyting and delete everything you consider unislamic. The world doesn't operate like that. EliasAlucard|Talk 10:06 17 Jun, 2007 (UTC)

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