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Article title

I moved the page per title suggested by Alex Bakharev , which is more appropriate. Thanks. Atabek 16:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The title is not neutral. It was ONE cartoon, not "cartoons" and it was perceived as being anti-Azerbaijani, its POV to say that it actually was.Hajji Piruz 16:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the suggestion made by Alex Bakharev should be followed. Yes, the cartoons were anti-Azerbaijani, that's why the center of protests were Azerbaijani-populated towns. I think it's important to identify these ones, because there were also other Cartoon protests in Iran over unrelated issues. Atabek 16:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed the unsourced POV about involvement of Republic of Azerbaijan or Turkey (this is even more ridiculous claim) in these protests. Atabek 16:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It was one cartoon, so why is the title plural? Also, its POV and non neutral to say that the cartoon were actually anti-Azerbaijani, as the cartoon was drawn by an Azeri.Hajji Piruz 16:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter who drew it. The nature was insulting to Azeri ethnicity, as protests revealed. There is nothing anti-Iranian here, just gotta speak the truth. Atabek 16:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Dacy, thanks for addition of sources. I think there is a duplication of text in the article, so we need to resolve that. Thanks. Atabek 16:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

yes, please I tried to regroup it. Go ahead. Important to prreserve all neccessary citations.--Dacy69 16:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The title still needs to be changed to make the article NPOV. I also took out unrelated portions of the AI quote, which is talking about other incidents that are unrelated to this. The AI report is the annual report, talking about several different events. The cartoonist was also an Azeri, I dont see why Atabek inserted "allegedly".Hajji Piruz 17:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll also add more information later.Hajji Piruz 17:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I see no problem with current edit. Then we can add other events (which out of tthis article scope) on page Iranian Azerbaijan and mention cartoon issue very briefly there.--Dacy69 18:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

No, now that this subject has its own article, its not to be spammed anywhere else, thats the point of giving events their own articles. All other mentions have to be removed and redirected here.Hajji Piruz 18:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Not removed, but linked to this page, sort of like with Musavat being pan-Turkist claims being inserted on every Azerbaijan-related page. We should also make a more comprehensive page on linguistic rights of Azerbaijanis in Iran, where other details, including events around Bazz castle shall be mentioned.Atabek 19:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Piruz, you are not establishing rules in Misplaced Pages. It has own and standards. Moreover, I mentioned someone changes the name of the article without discussion. That's it!!! It needs intervention of admins.--Dacy69 20:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Dacy69, you changed the name of the article without discussing it either. LOL. By the way, my proposal for changing the name is this: "Iran (newspaper) Azeri cartoon controversy", that way it matches this title "Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy"Hajji Piruz 20:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I have not changed any names. I just edited page which was opened by third party mediator.--Dacy69 20:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It was not an "Azeri cartoon", it was an anti-Azeri cartoon, that's why there were protests all over South Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 05:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

This is the only neutral title: Iran (newspaper) cockroach cartoon controversy

It also matches the title of a similar article: Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy.

This title is NPOV, describes the situation, and works for everyone. Again, it also matches the title of another similar article (the Mohammad cartoons).Hajji Piruz 05:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it does not describe the nature of the controversy, i.e. anti-Azerbaijani character of the cartoon. It was not just a controversy over an Iranian newspaper, it was controversy over anti-Azerbaijani cartoon, which the title should reflect. Grandmaster 05:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Its an NPOV title which matches the title of an almost identical other article. Saying that the cartoon was anti-Azerbaijani in the title suggests that the cartoon was meant to be anti-Azerbaijani. Thats highly POV. The current title is very appropriate. The controversy was over a cockcroach cartoon published in the newspaper "Iran", the article title currently presents all of this in a neutral fashion.Hajji Piruz 05:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It is a matter of fact that the cartoon was anti-Azerbaijani, that’s why Azerbaijani people protested it. The title proposed by you covers up the nature of the controversy, and thus is not acceptable. Grandmaster 05:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I will refer you to the title "Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy". Grandmaster, the title is supposed to be NPOV. Its the content of the article that matters, and no one can say that anything is being hidden in the article.Hajji Piruz 05:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why article on Muhammad cartoons controversy, contains the subject of issue "Muhammad", while Azeri cartoon controversy, somehow omitted the word "Azeri". So included that and moved the article to properly reflect the subject matter. I don't understand why there is an attempt to misrepresent the issue by omitting the word Azeri and thus pretty much contradict the Amnesty International report. Atabek 08:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Because the cartoon was about Mohammad. As per the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, the current title is not appropriate.Hajji Piruz 14:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It was some abstract cartoon it would have not caused anything. It was related to Azerbaijanis and made them angry and caused unrest. So, title reflects the problem. And I agree fully with third party proposal. At least it neutral.--Dacy69 15:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The title needs to be neutral. I already gave you an example of a similar article title. Your POV cant impede Misplaced Pages's rules.Hajji Piruz 16:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The new (current) title reflects the NPOV, because: 1) the events around the publication and the following protests pertained directly to Azeris; 2) the cartoon was published in newspaper "Iran"; 3) the title is in line with the proposition made by the third party, Alex Bakharev. Atabek 17:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It was me who suggested probably the most POV-ed title, but now I think maybe Iran (newspaper) cockroach cartoon controversy or Iran (newspaper) namana cartoon controversy is better. It is not obvious that the cartoon was intended to make fun on Azeris (one side denys it) but there is certainly a cockroach and namana word on the picture Alex Bakharev 04:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Alex for commenting here, this is what I've been trying to tell them the whole time, but they have simply moved the page. I'd appreciate it if you moved the article yourself so we could end this silly dispute.Hajji Piruz 04:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

UnPOV

No POV should be used in this sensitive article, especially unsourced and unauthored charges using the word "indeed" are completely unacceptable to encyclopedic article. Atabek 08:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

hajji Piruz used unrelated image with POv statement which I removed.--Dacy69 19:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Unrelated images? I clearly showed the pan Turkic Grey Wolves symbol being used. This symbol is used by the Grey Wolves of Turkey and the Azerbaijan Republic. Its perfectly legitimate for the picture to be included. The use of that symbol is a clear indication that pan Turks, either from Turkey or the Republic of Azerbaijan or recruits in Iran, were involved in the situation. Its pictorial evidence which shows pan Turkic influence in the protests.Hajji Piruz 19:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you are stretching the point. Here we need pictures related to the event. You youself advocated this apporach. You can use pan-turkist pictures on relevant pages.I can put pictures of Iranian chauvinist, etc. Should we put picture of Putin or Bush on any related with Russian or American administration. Further, Turkic influence is Iranian government presumption - they blame everyone From israel UK, US etc. Besides, you are putting POV comment in the image.--Dacy69 19:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The picture on the left was from a protest Tabriz. LOL Dacy, I have brought pictorial proof of pan Turkist involvment in the protests. The Iranian governments suspicions are not unfounded, there are literally dozens of pictures taken by pan Turkists and posted on pan Turkist websites boasting about the pan Turkish supporters in the protests.

The funny thing is that pan Turkists acknowledge this. Again, they were the ones that took and posted the pictures on their pan Turkic websites. How are you going to deny the pan Turkic involvement? I have brought pictorial evidence.Hajji Piruz 19:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, if we gonna use that kind of pictures from as you told pan-turkic site - first: we should not put any our comments, second: I have the right to put other pictures from demonstration, beated people, etc. If this is what we agree - then it is balanced, and you can go ahead, I will put mine.--Dacy69 19:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you threatening me with some sort of Wiki retaliation? Thats pictorial evidence of pan Turkic influence. You can use your POV all you want, but that wont change the facts.

Your telling me that I cant put in a picture that shows pan Turks in the protests but if I do, there also has to be a picture about the police beating people? LOL, WOW.Hajji Piruz 19:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I am not threatening. I am simply trying to put some standards. For me, current outlay is ok with picture of cartoon itself. It is you who is making POV on pan-turkist involvement and put your own comments in image. So, either we keep it as it is or we gonna use other pictures. In the second case, I believe, we should first of all, use pictures of demonstrations. It is primarily related to the article. Make a choice.--Dacy69 19:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I have evidence, pictures. Yes, you did threaten. Your POV means nothing here. The picture itself is proof. That symbol is used by the Grey Wolves and its party, the MHP. There is no denying that there was Grey Wolf involvment, the picture is on the web for everyone to see, and it should be in this article.

Dont threaten anyone, it wont get you anywhere.Hajji Piruz 19:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The picture added is a fake collage, not even professionally made, but assembled of two separate photos in Photoshop. This is not an encyclopedic material. Atabek 21:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Read the summary of the picture, I attached both pictures together to show that the symbol is also used by the MHP Grey Wolves. The Picture with the showing the Grey Wolves in Iran is from the Associated Press.Hajji Piruz 21:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I undid the collage, there should be no more problems.Hajji Piruz 21:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Where do you see the red flag with 3 crescents on the left picture? Why are you trying to damage Misplaced Pages with this kind of completely unacceptable POV? Don't you realize that you're insulting your own people and history doing so? Atabek 21:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you not see the hand symbol? It is the symbol of the MHP party and its ultra-nationalist militant wing, the Grey Wolves. There are MHP election posters showing this hand gesture. Its like the Nazi salute for them, they use it all the time. It represents the legendary wolf that supposedly led the Turkic peoples to conquer the world.

See, this is why I included the other picture, because I knew you would say "well how do you know this is the Grey Wolf hand symbol".Hajji Piruz 21:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous. Then we should prepare a collage picture of Adolf Hitler with Swastika and images of Holocaust and post it on all Iran related pages, as Nazism was also based on pan-Aryan ideology and Iran official denies that it happened. Any correlation? The collage must be removed. Atabek 23:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Nazism has nothing to do with Aryan (the Asian Aryan). Why dont you read the Wiki article Aryan. There is no collage in the article. Also, the picture shows the protest and it shows some protesters clearing making the pan Turk hand gesture. Why are you trying to hide this information?Hajji Piruz 23:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes, it very much does. In fact just sufficient to check Aryanism page with all appropriate references. Especially with denial of Holocaust by Ahmadinejad and adoption of Swastika by Hitler, the connection is very very close. Atabek 23:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

LOL! Yea, Hitler took the term Aryan and and the Indian religious symbol the swatiska and said it meant all blue eyed blond haired people, but thats not his fault, thats the fault of people like Darius the Great and people thousands of years ago who used the term Aryan...Atabek, this is pretty hilarious. Thanks for lightening up my day.

Misplaced Pages has a lot of articles you could read and learn about this matter.Hajji Piruz 23:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks for admitting the similar ridiculousness of the collage you make in a very hopeless attempt to link protests in Iranian Azerbaijan to Republic of Azerbaijan or Turkey. Given that, both countries expelled SANAM activists and shut down broadcasts of anti-Iranian television, your attempts are simply laughable. Neither country can take responsibility for what freedom activists do in Iranian Azerbaijan, as much as Iran cannot take responsibility for actions of Nazis during World War II. Atabek 00:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

What? I never pointed the finger at anyone, I merely posted evidence depicting Grey Wolf activists protesting. Why does that upset you so much? And by the way, there are many politicians in the Republic of Azerbaijan that have Grey Wolf leanings. Elcibey for example was a Grey Wolf sympathizer and appointed a Grey Wolf in his government. I'm done with this conversation, its off topic. This is not a forum, take this via e-mail if you wish.Hajji Piruz 00:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

You can't even visualize the sign that they show with their fists :) And the sentence "The symbol is used by the Grey Wolves of Turkey and Azerbaijan Republic, and may hint at foreign influence in these protests" without source :)) is a complete POV. I am not removing this unsourced invention yet, just for visitors to have a good laugh at unencyclopedic your POV pushing. You don't understand something, with this kind of POV you're attacking not people of Republic of Azerbaijan or Turkey, but your fellow Iranians who fight, get arrested and killed for their cultural freedoms within Iran. Atabek 00:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed the wording, there should be no problem now, as there is no definitive statement being made as to require a fact tag. Interesting comment, I'll keep that in mind.Hajji Piruz 02:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you realize what you're doing by still keeping POV text accusing Turkey or Republic of Azerbaijan. Please, cite official Iranian news or government source which ever made such charge pertaining to these specific events. Otherwise, the quote will go, it's doing nothing but inciting hatred due to your POV. Atabek 06:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

UnPOV 2

Hajji Piruz/Azerbaijani, you're wasting your time pushing the POV from personal blogs, unscholarly and unencyclopedic sources and other hate-mongering nationalist inciting material here. All those will be eventually removed from here as they simply fall short of Misplaced Pages standards. I am working on Pan-Aryan collage meanwhile. Thanks. Atabek 23:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody translate what the child is saying

I have put the cartoon. Can somebody translate what the child is saying. Is it a poem or what? What language it is? Is it important that the child and the roach talk using Latin letters rather than Arabic/Persian script? Alex Bakharev 08:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Soosk means cockroach, and the cockroach is saying "What?" in Azeri.Hajji Piruz 14:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick note, soosk means cockroach in Farsi, not Azeri. The "what" part is in Azeri. Atabek 17:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Sources for such controversial article should be neutral. So, any Iranian or Azeri sources should not be here. However, if we are coming to agreement to use Iranian sources, then Azeri should be also in place.--Dacy69 02:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a 1 year old political/protest event article. For Iranian government opinions, Iranian sources can be used. The Iran-Daily source simply says that Afrough suspected pan Turkists and the Iran-Focus source simply says the crowd got violent (I can bring western sources for this too, its fact, they threw stones and damaged public property, such as buildings). Pan Turk sources are used also with regards to the slogans. The rest are Western sources or pictures. I fail to see what is wrong with the sources.Hajji Piruz 14:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Images about to be deleted

The images associated with this article will all soon be (and one already is) targeted for deletion due to the fact that they do not have the appropriate fair-use rationale tables included.--Mike18xx 07:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

POV and OR about foreign involvement

Houshyar before edit warring on the article, you shall provide references to prove that Turkey or Azerbaijan Republic are involved in these protests. So far yourself and Hajji Piruz both failed to produce such. And in this light, your continued POV pushing in the article contributes to nothing but confrontation and is absolutely unencyclopedic. Atabek 07:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Check this link . The same picture as the one inserted into this article, but the caption does not say that they are foreigners or "pan-Turks". It says that they are Iranian students. Grandmaster 12:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The article does not saying anything about Turkey and Azerbaijan influencing anything, it simply says that there are Grey Wolves in both countries who use the same symbol (the Wolf symbol with the fingers).Hajji Piruz 14:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Behmod is another your meatpuppet removed one quote while reinserted another which has no direct link with the event and should be removed from page. This quote contain no primary evidnece to cartoon event.--Dacy69 16:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

WTA

To those inserting the word terrorism to sum up Iranians who fight for their cultural rights, first of all, read WP:WTA, per this rule this word shall go. Secondly, terrorist is a small group of people committing attacks, you can't brand thousands of people protesting humiliation on crowded streets of Tabriz as terrorists. The human civilization lost 54 million people to Nazism/Pan-Aryanism in the course of World War II, nevertheless no one calls pan-Aryan ideology as terrorist. Atabek 18:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Category

I need a clear explanation for what you added that category without any discussions. by the brought sources, you may find that there was no hidden agenda and all the stuff seemed like a misunderstanding. --Pejman47 18:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why you're removing the sources citing only the category. On the same page some users included even YouTube video, which technically violates Misplaced Pages rules about copyright, yet you didn't touch those and tend to concentrate on legitimate references from Guardian Newspaper and Prospect Magazine. I mean, there are also personal blog references there, why not remove those? Atabek 19:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference abuse and misunderstandings

I don't see why personal blog references are being added to this page. It's absolute violation of WP:NPOV and WP:OR. To be honest, it's rather funny and sad to see the sudden group attraction of Pejman47, Behmod, Houshyar, and others to this article and attempts to revert the references, photos, misrepresent information in all ways possible. I guess you don't realize that apart from the attempts to misrepresent own history and create more enemies, your actions are only contributing to understanding of what kind of reality and future awaits Azeri Turks and other minorities in Iran. Thank you for confirming the points made in press by what you call "foreign interference". I think a more prudent approach would be reaching out to your own people and embracing them, instead of trying to POV challenge their ethnic identity or misrepresent their history. Atabek 19:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Before accusing us of re-writing the history. Please once again read your text books --behmod talk 20:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Still certain editor persist in pushing POV and use non-neutral sources. I removed. Plus Seymour quote has no proof of direct involvment in the events.--Dacy69 20:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

I suggest from now on to discuss any new changes in the article instead of inserting POV statements. Once reference approved we can go ahead. It is not easy task in the light of completely opposing view but still we need to work on it. Plus - I suggest any new editor come here first instead of appearing from nowehere and making reverts without discussion. I further suggest to use non-Iranian, non-Azeri sources.--Dacy69 20:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

reliable unbiased sources must be used be it western or eastern, e.g. I don't consider amnesty international as a unnatural source in any case related to Middle East. But you have a good point, we should not use personal websites. --Pejman47 21:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Excuse my curiosity here when you say "I don't consider Amnesty international as a unnatural source in any case related to Middle East" - first of all what do you mean? Secondly, how are you qualified to judge AI, an internationally recognized body specializing on human rights world-wide and Iranian rights in particular? I mean, we have references in the article from iranfocus.com :) and you're calling AI as not an impartial source? Atabek 23:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

first thing you must take in to consideration is that Amnesty international is just an NGO not related to UN or anything else serious:), based in U.S. and the people who writes its reports are just like me and you, that is people who read news and then give their interpretations on it, that's all of it. It has no reporter on any country or for most parts of its report, it doesn't do any research. In past some of its errors is revealed and there is signs that in some cases it has acted like puppets of certain powers. --Pejman47 08:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course, AI is an NGO, exactly unrelated to UN and opposed to US government, so it makes it independent. I don't see why the opinion of AI is being removed, just because it does not fit certain POV. This form of "hiding the truth", when there are videos and photos of protests and beating by police all over the Internet from reliable sources, does nothing more than further insulting Azerbaijani people. Misplaced Pages is not Iranian state news agency, it's an encyclopedia which is supposed to present evidence from all reliable sources, and let the reader make own judgements. Atabek 13:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Slogans

Do we really need to bring slogans into this article? Some of them are really annoying (Even after the attempt of the Azeri to English translator to make them a little smoother). Writing these quotes is just spreading the hatred and I am going to remove this part--behmod talk 21:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I did that --Pejman47 21:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Good job on slogans, those were useless and intimidating anyway. I suggest though adding back AI report, it's a legitimate source and does not insult any ethnicity. Atabek 23:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with recent changes, but AI should stay - it is reliable neutral source.--Dacy69 01:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Also - image was removed without discussion. I am restoring it.--Dacy69 01:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It was not removed without discussions, it is going to be deleted and you can not keep it on the article. --Pejman47 08:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Image copyrights will be discussed separately. However, turning to the issue of AI report, it shall be included, as it's NPOV. Atabek 13:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Amnesty International is a reliable source and should be included. - Francis Tyers · 13:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Cartoonist's apology & was it a real ethnic conflict ?

The apology of the cartoonist is in Persian language. Summary of what he said and what Iranian cartoonists said about that cartoonists apologyis as follows :The Persian slang has many loan words from Azeri-Turkish, like Qarashmish (chaotic in Persian), Yer be Yer ( even ; as in "we are even" ) and so on ... The expression " Namana" ,that is used in Persian Slang, is used when a person is encountered with a surprising task and want to reject it , something like "What did you said ?!" (Plus surprise and rejection).In the cartoons the cartoonist can't use the text and there is no other way in cartoons other than using such a words.
Changing the government from reformist to conservative , the potential for revolt was high and the reformists forces in the government help the revolt in the cover "insult to the Azeri ethnic"... So that's more complex than considering it a mere ethnic conflict.--Alborz Fallah 12:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you need to translate and put everything you just said in English into the article, its very important.Hajji Piruz 18:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Grey Wolves

The participation of the Grey Wolves in the protests should be mentioned. The Grey Wolves are linked with Turkey's MHP party and their outfits in the Republic of Azerbaijan, where they have a lot of influence (Elchilbey, a Grey Wolf sympathizer himself, even appointed Grey Wolves in his government).

The Grey wolves are the militant terrorist wing of the MHP party, they also operate in several places across Europe, attacking Armenians and Kurds and other "anti-Turks". They are known to do things like this.

I have brought pictorial as well as video evidence showing the Grey Wolves at the protests. Their participation should be mentioned, its highly significant. And no, contrary to what Atabek says, citing a Youtube video as a source is not a copyright violation, just as citing a book isnt.

It is also clear that the Republic of Azerbaijan wants there to be turmoil in northern Iran:

"The recent deadly unrest in Iran's predominantly Azeri northwestern region - an area acknowledged as ripe for covert operations - has raised concerns in Tehran not only of foreign hands in action, but also of its resurgent oil-rich, US-friendly neighbor the Republic of Azerbaijan. And in an address to the majlis (parliament), Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei - himself an Azeri - suggested a link between developments in the northwest and a recent announcement that US President George W Bush's administration was seeking a multimillion-dollar bill in Congress to promote democracy in Iran. There is great interest in America, Israel and the Republic of Azerbaijan in pushing an agenda of ethnic warfare in Iran," said Evan Ziegel, a historian of the Islamic Revolution of 1979. "But let's recognize that this project is being amply assisted by Persian chauvinist knuckleheads who are willing to play into their hands."

Thats the entire quote from atimes, Dacy69 only quoted part of it when he posted it into the article.

Anyone who knows about the Grey Wolf operations in northern Iran would know that these large protests were not simply started by people who were pist off about a cartoon with a cockroach who spoke Azeri and Persian. Grey Wolves for years now have been handing out their pan Turk propaganda pamphlets, going and starting protests infront of the Armenian embassy, go to Babak's Castle and start trouble (I also have pictures of Grey Wolves at Babak castle making their wolf hand sign.Hajji Piruz 18:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

If citing YouTube videos is OK, I suggest that you review these , , , - I don't know how appropriate it is to label thousands if not million people protesting there as terrorists. I suggest that we also discuss the quote from Luttwak, CSIS, and it's quite in place here. Also AI quote should go back in the article per Francis Tyers' comment. Atabek 18:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

What do those video's have to do with what I wrote? Also, the Grey Wolves are a terrorist organization. Not all of the protestors were Grey Wolves. Here is some information about CSIS:

The Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) is a Washington, D.C.-based foreign policy think tank. The center was founded in 1964 by Admiral Arleigh Burke and historian David Manker Abshire, originally as part of Georgetown University; this relationship was severed in 1986 because of perceived academic incredibility at CSIS.

It has generally had a right-wing, neoconservative tilt in its studies and reports.

Hajji Piruz 19:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Logic behind relaying blame or POV pushing

The videos , , , are the protests against cartoons and one of them on the mother language day this year. And I am not sure what's the credibility of calling CSIS a newcon organization, or AI (wow are they neocons too? :) an unacceptable reference, when there are references from Abbas Maleki, who obviously cannot be impartial in the matter. Now about POV pushing and laying blame on Republic of Azerbaijan or Turkey. Here are few points which should make clear that's not reasonable:

• 1. Republic of Azerbaijan itself deals with separatist issue on its territory. There is no reason on either official or unofficial level for the country to support separatist tendencies in Iran, provided that both countries recognized each other's territorial integrity.
• 2. Government of Azerbaijan both officially and unofficially had good relations with official Tehran, and rejected officially all proposals made by Washington about placing bases in Azerbaijan. In fact, Azerbaijan has also deported some people associated with separatism in Iran.
• 3. Turkey is the last country to support separatist tendencies in Iran, due to the problem of Kurdish separatism, which affects actually both countries. In fact, official Turkey shut down Azerbaijani separatist TV stations broadcasting to Iran.
• 4. Pan-Turkism ideology does not exist in the form of any organization recognized as terrorist, while official Tehran is known and documented to support at least one Lebanese-based organization recognized internationally as terrorist.
• 5. Hundreds of thousands of protesters on streets of Tabriz, Qoshachay, Orumiyyeh or other towns inhabitted by ethnic Azeris do not simply follow handful of terrorists. Such claim sounds absurd. Rights of minorities in Iran is generally recognized issue on the list of human rights issues of Iran. There is nothing wrong in exposing the truth about those, as they help for Iranian society to deal with the problem rather than making it exposed to foreign detractors. Hiding the problem results in foreign support. That was exactly the problem with Turkey in Kurdish issue. Masking and hiding discontent and human rights issues does not solve the problem.

Thanks. Atabek 23:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow, good POV and OR, very intersting, but really, it cant have an affect here unless we all want to break Misplaced Pages's policies. Oh, and by the way, the CSIS info I posted is from Wiki's article on the organization.Hajji Piruz 00:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Pan-Turkism ideology does not exist in the form of any organization recognized as terrorist: this is not true.Pan-Turianian idiologists are organized in the Grey Wolves movement and are secretly supported by the Turkish and by the Azerbaijani governments.Some Pan-Turanians even filled the ranks of important ministers in both countries.Gray Wolves are regarded as terrorists in many countries.

Page move

The page should be moved to "Iran (newspaper) cockroach cartoon controversy", Alex Bakharev also supports it:

It was me who suggested probably the most POV-ed title, but now I think maybe Iran (newspaper) cockroach cartoon controversy or Iran (newspaper) namana cartoon controversy is better. It is not obvious that the cartoon was intended to make fun on Azeris (one side denys it) but there is certainly a cockroach and namana word on the picture Alex Bakharev 04:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Hajji Piruz 19:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. The cartoon insulted Azerbaijani people, therefore the name should reflect the fact. Grandmaster 06:13, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence that says the cartoon was meant to insult anyone. The cockroach also spoke Persian, why werent Persians offended? Its all about perception. The title should reflect only what is known.Hajji Piruz 12:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The "Azeri" in the title has POV implications about the nature of the cartoon. We can't label the cartoon, that's POV. I've moved the page to a NPOV title "The Iran newspaper cockroach cartoon controversy" based on AlexBakharev's suggestion. AlexanderPar 00:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The cartoon was insulting for Azerbaijani people, that's why hundreds of thousands took the streets. The title should reflect the fact. Do not move the page without consensus. Grandmaster 06:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The page was moved in the first place without consensus, and yes, there is a consensus. The previous title was proposed by Alex, and he recanted and also said it was POV, and said that the current title is better, as it reflects the reality better.Hajji Piruz 06:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Amnesty International

Amnesty International is not a WP:RS, all their reports are based on opposition and separatist groups' "he said, she said", without double-checking the facts. Do not add it back. AlexanderPar 23:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Please restore AI quote in the original form. No need to add the words like "claims", etc. We need to present all the views accurately, and in this case Iranian government is much less reliable source than AI, as Iranian government is one of the worst human rights offenders in the entire world. See this too: Grandmaster 06:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Amnesty International, HRV, etc are not reliable sources, they're activist organizations that take the word of dissident and separatist groups who have an agenda at face value, without double-checking the facts on the ground, and they have been proven to be wrong on multiple occasions. When the source is not reliable, a clear attribution like "X claims Y" is needed. Regardless, this article is not about human rights, we don't have human rights reports on Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy about the cultural rights of Muslims, their sensitivities, and what not. Please take your soapboxing to Human rights in Islamic Republic of Iran. AlexanderPar 10:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop suppressing the info. Both organizations are reliable sources as Francis explained to Piruz. This article is not a soapbox for official Iranian propaganda, which blames the popular protest on "pan-Turks", etc. HRW makes it quite clear that it is a common practice in Iran to accuse people who speak up for the rights of Azeri people as "Turkish spies". Whether you agree with these reports or not, their existence is a fact that cannot be suppressed. Grandmaster 12:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

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