Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:08, 20 June 2007

Semi Official Collier Lounsbury / Collounsbury Welcome to any commentors

I'm sure you're dropping by because I have annoyed you elsewhere in Wiki correcting some illiteracy or another in relationship with the MENA region and associated subjects. Before complaining take a breath, as frankly I don't really care.

Now, otherwise, if you need to know more about me, here is what I am willing to tell you.

• I work in the broader financial sector and in the greater Middle East - North Africa (MENA) region.
• Professionally I specialise in direct investment issues in MENA, and have an expertise in the region aside from my finance work; consider my contributions in history and politics a side benefit.
• At time of writing (--collounsbury 16:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)) presently 'in exile' outside of region due to a serious illness.
• Normally on-line I write at a blog (not my own in fact, was invited, no doubt in a fit of madness by the author): www.aqoul.com. 'Aqoul is a Middle East theme politics and economy blog, and has been featured in "The Financial Times."

Otherwise, any comments, abuse or whatever, feel free.

Collier Lounsbury

Welcome

Welcome!

Hello Collounsbury, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Tuareg

Thanks for your contributions on Tuareg. If you make your citations explicit (see Abraham Goldfaden, Ramon Casas i Carbó, or Antoni Gaudí for examples of how to do this; I happen to think the Gaudí example is best), it becomes much easier for other people to "defend" your accurate information against less knowledgable future edits. If you don't do that, it's very hard for anyone to choose between two uncited claims. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Albania

Greetings sir. I just wanted to let you know that I worked under a US agency in Tirana, Albania and I have no vested interest in pushing "POV". I can tell you that religion in Albania (much like the rest of europe) is largely symbolical and that is is not widely practised. The government is largely pro-American, does not endorse any religion and that muslims compromise only a small minority. Patterns 12:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Vested interest or not, your comment is POV (as confirmed by this rather absurd comment). Symbolic or not, 'non-practising' does not mean non-X. A non-practising Xian can and often does ID as Xian. The government being "pro-American" is utterly irrelevant to the question, and your confusion re practising versus non-practising, pro-American as relevant to whether one is Muslim or not in some sense leads me to entirely discount your observations. (Collounsbury 19:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)).

Haratin

Hi, I don't know what you did exactly write in the discussion page as you didn't sign your comment, but you seem to know a bit about this subject. The information about Haratin is very scarse in Morocco, and this subject certainly needs to be better studied. I would tend to say, go ahead and make the contributions you feel are sensible, cheers --Khalid hassani 18:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I will try when I get a free moment, the entire commentary was mine. (Collounsbury 19:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)).

WS

Hi, Here is a vote related to Western Sahara, let's hear your voice :). Daryou 07:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

===>Per Talk:North Africa

As an old North Africa hand, I was bemused to find the Western Sahara situ blown up as it is here on the wiki.

Huh? What does this mean? -Justin (koavf), talk 01:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It means that the Western Sahara materials here on wiki I find overdone given the WS actual status, and rather simplistic. There is no small amount of "actvists" running around pimping party political agitprop. (Collounsbury 02:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

===>Wha? I'm not sure that I actually understand what you are writing. In what way are they "overdone"? The situation in Western Sahara has resulted in one of the top ten hugest refugee situations in the world for over thirty years; that's big stuff. It's certainly not simplistic. The following sentence is totally unintelligible:

There is no small amount of "actvists" running around pimping party political agitprop.

Do you care to explain exactly what this is supposed to mean? -Justin (koavf), talk 02:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Care to write like an adult? As for what I am writing, it should be quite clear. The WS materials on Wiki make a mountain out of a molehill. As for being one of the "top ten" refugee crises, I hardly find that assertion credible. An important crisis in the 1970s, less so in the 1980s, a mere hangover since. As for "unintelligble" sentence, clear enough. There is no small amount of party political activists running around pimping their agitprop. (Collounsbury 02:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

===>Whatever. How is Western Sahara a "molehill"? We're talking about the sustained human suffering of hundreds of thousands of people over four decades. I also don't see how it became less important as time wore on - tell that to the people in the camps. I got my information for the largeness of the refugee population from the 2005 Time Almanac, p. 713, who got their info from the U.S. Committee on Refugees. There are fourteen conflicts/regions with higher numbers, of which half have estimates that "vary considerably." It's impossible to give a precise number of refugees for many of these conflicts, but the Sahara is certainly around the 12th largest or so. And in terms of percentage of the population that became refugees, it is definitely among the highest three or four (compare with Sudan, or DR Congo.) -Justin (koavf), talk 02:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It's a fucking molehill. Flat bloody hammada desert. A few thousand tribals (not hundreds of thousands, 100 k top end) chose the wrong side, they lost. Eventually the Algerian generals will tire of the game and it will be over. Unlike yourself, kid, I know lots of actual Sahraouine kid. (Collounsbury 03:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

===>Wha? There are over 100,000 Sahrawis in the camps right now, so I certainly don't see how you can make that claim in good faith. Also, how do you know how many Sahrawis I know? What is this "kid" stuff? There's no reason for this kind of derogatory language. I'm trying to be respectful, and you're the one simultaneously talking down to me, swearing, and asking me to ask like an adult. There's no excuse to be rude. If you think that the conflict is a molehill, I don't see why you've chosen to professionally study and report on it. If you want, take a while to respond, when emotions are not so high, and I'll be happy to hear what kind of sources you have for saying that there are less than 100,000 Sahrawis. -Justin (koavf), talk 03:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The very underlying source you cited, kid, gives 98 K: U.S. Committee on Refugees (http://www.refugees.org/uploadedFiles/Investigate/Publications_&_Archives/WRS_Archives/2005/warehoused_refugee_populations.pdf)

- not that USCR is known low-balling refugee numbers, the contrary. As to your knowledge of Sahraouine, well, it shows. Typical just learned about a cause exitement. And, again, WS is a molehill: the territory itself is of little economic value, and completely unable to sustain the current population sans massive external subsidies. The entire thing would go away if the Algerian Generals did not find it a useful way to put political pressure on Morocco. But of course that's not as romantic as the party political agitprop spun.(Collounsbury 03:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

===>I'm guessing you aren't a native speaker? "Typical just learned about a cause exitement." Isn't an actual sentence. If you're implying that I just learned about the Sahara and I'm excited, so what? I didn't just learn about it, but who cares if I'm excited? Is there something wrong with that? Polisario existed prior to Algerian involvement, and the SADR wasn't initially recognized by Algeria, so if you're trying to perpetuate the preposterous myth that this is some anti-Moroccan plot by Algeria, you're certainly not going to convince me. -Justin (koavf), talk 03:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Native speaker of English? Poor guess mate, name's Collier Lounsbury. Centuries of speaking English under the family belt, mate. As for your excitement, typical of the gung-ho kid syndrome. Sticks out like a bloody sore thumb. As for 'preposterous myth' - hardly. Polisario represented a faction within the Saharan population. One among several. In the 70s they had a good run at it, although thankfully for the population, they did not get to set up a mini-Mauretania as would have been the case on the prevailing ideology. Now, 30 years on, they're a shadow of the past, that is a mere puppet of the Algerian regime. Anyone professionally involved in the region knows the game, kid. Of course you believe the party political agitprop. Naivety of youth. Oh, and beforre you pull out the "pro Morocco thing" the Makhzen are a bunch of loathsome bastards as well. Ain't no fucking virgins in that game.(Collounsbury 04:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)).

Greetings

Thanks for the note Collounsbury. Appreciation is mutual. I also find the WS theme in Misplaced Pages way overinflated relatively to the real situation on the ground. Misplaced Pages is definitely going to be a target for everyone with an agenda given the huge audience it has. I really think it should make a change in its introduction. It should insist more on that aspect so it isn't mistaken for a neutral authoritative source.

On another theme, I saw somewhere that you had some health issue. I hope I'm wrong, but if it's the case, my most sincere wishes for a good and speedy recovery.
--Yobaranut 03:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that too, nearly all the WS Material is from User:Koavf, I am all for exposing a NPOV here by presenting all the points of vue of the conflit, it seems to me that this guy is clearly engaged in a political campaign, which as far as I know is against WP guidelines. It seems to me that WS is getting even greater than Morocco, which is ridiculous.--Khalid hassani 16:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Well that seems to be clear, the young fellow is quite excited by the topic and essentially regurgitates WS activitist agitprop. As compared to Morocco, Algeria or even the rest of the blood Sahara or Maghreb, WS has a huge amount of often repetitive material that is essentially party-political agit prop. I was astounded when I found such extensive materials for ... well to be brutal, a footnote. Have done my best to edit to something genuinely NPOV, but overall I agree it does look like (in toto of pages) a political campaign. (collounsbury 17:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC))

Not at all mate, my pleasure. There is clearly rather a lot of naive axe grinding going on in re Western Sahara. And yes, on my blog (aqoul.com, a group blog actually) you probably saw that. I have cancer. Nasty thing, but I ain't dead yet. Has sent me into medical exile though. (collounsbury 03:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC))

One of my best employees has been diagnosed with cancer a few weeks ago and she's been into medical exile since then too. Her departure has been a bad hit for everyone, as she was not only an important asset to the company, but she was very appreciated by her collegues as well. When I read about you, it made me think about that. I understand she's hopefully going to recover even though she finds it very hard to endure. Keep up the spirit and best wishes again.--Yobaranut 05:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

LOL:) Just read your last blog entry:) I've had a few of that kind too:) Good luck fixing it:)--Yobaranut 05:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Kha. Well, if it can be fixed I should get a gold bloody star, Cancer Boy fixing the thing long distance. Good luck to your colleague. I know quite literally what her pain is. (collounsbury 06:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC))

Maurxtania

Now I've read your litanies on this i/e-affair affair in I think five different places. Better do something about it. What do you say we try to move the ancient Romano-Berber Mauretania to Mauritania (kingdom), and convert the page Mauretania into a redirect for modern-day Mauritania? Then we can get rid of the spelling thing.

Also, get well. Arre 03:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. I would have taken action were I versed in the coding. Mauretania / Mauritania (Kingdom) and Mauretania / Mauritania (Republic) seems a fine way to divide. (collounsbury 00:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)). Bit busy otherwise. (collounsbury 00:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)).

Moors article

Some recent changes to the Moors article look like they go against the grain of mainstream scholarship. There really are so many individuals who vandalize this article, which is why it should be well-trafficked by authorities on the subject. --Jugbo 22:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I just noted them. This is why Misplaced Pages is doomed to be a failure and a crock. Well, I will find some editing time later. (collounsbury 20:56, 16 March 2006 (UTC))

Morocco/WS articles

Hi Collounsbury. Your remarks above about the overinflated WS articles and the user Koavf who infested Misplaced Pages with pro-polisario propaganda are true and the community get fed up with it: he is indefinitely blocked. Morocco and WS articles are now better, but the level of repetitive and un-enyclopedic "material" he and his likes have added is everywhere. Thanks for pointing it out, and congratulations for the recovery. --A Jalil 22:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome, and the young whanker's banning is news to me. I am not particularly pro-Moroccan per-se, but in this instance the comparative cretinism of the Polisario side annoys me more. I hope his being banned doesn't end up with Moroccan nationalist cretins swinging things the other way, but there seems to be several fair-minded types around. collounsbury 00:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

zanj

What do you make of this quote by professor J. Phillipe Rushton:

“

Although the Koran stated that there were no superior and inferior races and therefore no bar to racial intermarriage, in practice this pious doctrine was disregarded. Arabs did not want their daughters to marry even hybridized blacks. The Ethiopians were the most respected, the "Zanj" (Bantu and other Negroid tribes from East and West Africa south of the Sahara) the least respected, with Nubians occupying an intermediate position

”

Notice how he defines Zanj as Negroid tribes South of the Sahara yet at the same time defines them as separate from the Ethiopians. Are we to conclude that the Ethiopians were not considered zanj because they are hybridized (Arabized) blacks. Cavalli-Sforza, says this about Ethiopians on pg 199 of The Great Human Diasporas:

The Ethiopians compromise a number of different ethnic groups and have many more languages. They are one of the forty-two genetic groups emerging from the fifteen hundred populations studied, and are classified as African, genetically speaking, even if a closer look reveals that they are special Africans with a high level of genes of caucasoid (white) origin. In fact we can call them an admixture of African and west Asian (Arab) genes. The two groups contribute respectively about 60 percent and 40 percent of their genes. But linguistically speaking, they are closer to the Arabs, because they generally speak languages from a family (Afro-Asiatic) covering northern Africa, Arabia, and the Middle East.

The mixed genetic makeup and use of Afro-Asiatic languages reflect the history of the Ethiopians, who for a long time had close contacts with the Arabs. In and around the earliest Christian times, there was an empire that took in both regions. Its capital was first at Saba (Sheba) in Arabia and later at Axum, in Africa. According to Ethiopian tradition, Makeda, the Queen of Sheba, visited King Solomon and had by him a son, Menelek, founder of the Ethiopian dynasty, which has only recently been overthrown. The Bible tells of these events. Christmasgirl

Why should I care about the quote of Rushton, a well-known racist, who knows fuck all about Arabic, the subject matter and is a bloody bigotted whankers to boot? (collounsbury 23:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC))

If you're quoting Rushton, I have even less sympathy for your idiocy, regardless of the other idiot.

AS for your idiotic "hybridized" whankery, I have no patience for this. All groups are "hybridised" - and Cavalli Sforza I would note is a bit dated (assuming you have the quote right, which given your whanking I am not sure), but leaving that aside, it's rather clear that on any given "contact zone" population types fade into each other. It's the case in Eurasia, and the Nile valley and the Eithiopian-Arabian Peninsula contact zones. That says fuck all about the issue of Zanj as black, unless one is making a point of nuance re usage, re phenotypical similarities driving language differentiation, but that's not different from observing Graeco-Romans differentiated along these gross visual lines. There is fuck all of genetics to bring into this. (collounsbury 23:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC))

Sahara Conflict template

Hi Note that the Spanish Sahara was, in fact, annexed into the Spanish Empire, and that the protectorate(s) were a product of Spanish colonialism - weren't they? Needless to say, you proved yourself to be as rude and inflammatory as I recalled, and I would appreciate it if you weren't as pedantic to me; try "writing like an adult, mate." And "intifada" means "uprising;" while you are correct that I have far less of a grasp of Arabic than you do, that's ultimately irrelevant to the point that I was making. As proof of that position, you didn't actually offer any counter-argument, just some slander. The intifadas are related to the Sahara conflict, and as such, they should be on the template, right? And what "real experience" do you require of me? You want me to colonize parts of Africa? Start an intifada? What do you want, exactly? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 00:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Again mate, try writing like an adult. Intefada indeed means uprising, but that has fuck all do with your lapping up of agitprop. Now, as to the history mate, protectorate is notannexation. A fine point, in some ways, but the legal status of Morocco as such, or the Spanish Saharan territory differed vastly as a point of international law from that of - to use an actaul example of annexation - Algeria. Now as you haven't a bloody clue, I'd advise being less of a naive little partisan and try getting some bloody perspective. Real experience means life experience, and not sitting in a Uni library lapping up party political abstractions, for bloody fuck's sake. collounsbury 13:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC).

Berber identity

Hello Collounsbury, I have commented on the talk pages of certain articles that deal with the region historically know as North Africa, that is, Southern Mediterranean regions. I don't know where you're from, but I take it you are not from the region. After reading your page here, I understand your over-exuberance in dealing with my edits. You are obviously not interested in impartial, factual truth. You base your ideas on a single study, that used under 150 subjects, perhaps far less, from a traditionally sub-saharan region, that is, mauritania, and southern morocco, a country whose demographics have sadly been impacted by an illegal influx of sub-saharan africans. This study, minuscule in scope, cannot be applied to the VAST region that is the Southern Med/North Africa! Most of the populations of these different countries have no contact with each other, do not even understand each other's dialect, even in the case of Tunisia and Algeria! (neighbors) and so, it should be obvious even to you, that your edits are partial, inaccurate and highly objectionable. As I am sure you are aware, there are certain eccentric and rather deluded peeople out there who wish to appropriate certain cultures, and I believe as the region is mainly francophone, these eccentrics have succeeded, to a certain extent, in spreading their lies and fables. It is, however, improper to abuse wikipedia's editing system in furthering these fictions. And while you may be able, only temporarily, to remove the Southern Mediterranean's Arab identity from these pages as you appear to be a committed assualter, it continues to prosper in the real world and I will do my best to counter your efforts by urging other more patient souls to help me with this, as I have frankly no patience. Despite our differences, I am very appreciative of your comments, and I urge you to make more efforts to better inform yourself of this region's veritable, and not fictional, identity. Imposing your easily refutable fictional beliefs on others is not in keeping with wikipedian pillars. Remember, this is supposed to be a neutral, objective and encyclopedic source.I have cited encyclopedic sources and urge you again not to revert the articles back to their older, muddled versions. Mariam83 06:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Where I am from is not an issue. As for "impartial, factual" - your edits are neither impartial nor factual as such. You have a strong point of view. I don't even necessarily disagree with some of it. However, you have zero clue as to how to edit and write for an encyclo - copyright violations. I am not going to bother with the rest of your rant. (collounsbury 09:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC))

Bias

you appear to be fictionalizing reality on these pages. for instance, in the article about North Africa, you are attempting to include central sub-saharan black countries in the definition and you are twisting facts and language around so as to establish a veritable link with sub-saharan africa which has historically not existed and which does not exist, unless you mean as I pointed out, that the slave trade is an important link? You use a map that includes central african countries, which is absurd. I did not find this map on any UN database, and if it is drawn politically, it does not stand, as we both know North africa's inclusison of even Mauritania is debatable, and when acknowledged, is based on language and not much else. THis is not the place to rewrite history, though you are actively engaged in doing this. Please be objective and reasonable. Mariam83 10:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

My dear, you're going to get banned with your bizarre little storm of incoherent edits. collounsbury 10:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC).

Second with respect to your points of view, they are POINT OF VIEW, your personal opinions. There is no issue of twisting fact, but rather differences in usage. Neither in the English usage of North Africa nor the English usage of Maghreb is there entire consistency, either internally to English NOR with the various (plural) usages in either the Maghreb or North Africa. The map is not my map, it is a map reached by prior editorial consensus and not to be unilaterally wiped out by someone on her own personal and rather overdone vendetta. I am not even going to bother trying to argue underlying fact. collounsbury 10:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

keep playing games and before accusing me of being rude, read your own comments above in which you very rudely abuse other users. Don't try to use ambiguous language, we both know there is a very clear definition and understanding of these terms. Furthermore, I have not waged any wars, nor have I made major changes. You simply dislike the changes that I've made because they collide with your visison, which is based on fiction. I have had enough for the day, it seems only three users, you, Lonewolf BC who simply has a problem with me, and Bouha are bothered by my additions because I disagree with you disregard for facts. You most certainly do not disagree with the articles, as you have tried persistently to impose your fictitious lies and distortions, but nice try..however, it will not work with me. I am going to complain to wikipedia, and I am going to ask them to review the additions that I have made, esp to the Berber page, where I merely added annotated evidence, as in real numbers. I will remain VIGILANT! Mariam83 11:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not playing any games, lady. As for "very clear" definitions, there is not. The changes you are making do not "collide" with my vision, they are simply completely over the top, POV and frankly poorly done. As coherent discussion with you seems impossible, I ask you to stop leaving comments here on this page. collounsbury 11:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

sorry but yel3an deen omak el kalba ya 3abd, ya ka7loush..nathafli el ka3 :-) sub-saharan african.

Insulting myself via my mother as a dog and calling me "slave" in a racially insulting manner (sorry to divine you have racial prejudices against your darker brethren as well via this) is hardly rational comportment woman. I am afraid you are confirming a widening impression that you are no capable of engaging in rational exchanges and editing. collounsbury 12:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC).

the usage of the word brethren is rather curous considering the fact that I consider 3abeed a race apart..more wishful thinking I presume. You are ignored. You are incapable of rational thought. Keep perpetuating inaccuracies. You can only do it on a 💕. Mariam83 13:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Your usage of bigoted racial language (3abeed for the non-Arabic speaker means slave, and in her usage means "black people" in uncouth racist usage) is sad. Pity that you are full of hatred toward your brethren. collounsbury 13:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

re Faysal Mate

Can you help out on the Maghrebine pages and this bizarre edit war set off by Mariam83? As I noted in comments, I don't even necessarily disagree with some (even a good many) of her edits, but the wholesale vandalistic editing with refusal to discuss at all is bloody stunning. Also rather disturbing is the editing on the African connexion angle, mate, as well as her comments on pages re 3bid, quite racialistic. Best collounsbury 14:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC).

I'll do my best asap. No worries. -- FayssalF - 14:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks mate. collounsbury 14:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC).

Faysal Mate? lol The laughable Pansy carries on

Collounsbury, you are corrupt! Look at you, pulling out all the stops to stop Mariam :-) you have made my day! Sadly though, my edits on the Berber page only enriched the article and were in no way subjective or deviatory. What can I say? You have proved a veritable and might I add, typical heel. Let the idiotic and vulgar continue to believe the nonsense that you are doing your best to perpetuate. I am going to complain about you for corrupting administrators by cajoling them into blocking newcomers and locking pages. Mariam83 15:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

1. [Race, Evolution, and Behavior, unabridged edition, 1997, by J. Phillipe Rushton pg 97-98