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Revision as of 23:46, 25 June 2007

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Zoophilia received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

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Possibly unencyclopedic passages

When beginning to edit and shorten the pornography section I came across some sentences that sounded quite unencyclopedic to me. I'd appreciate if a native English speaker reviews them and rephrases them if necessary:

• Using animal fur or stuffed animals in erotic photography doesn't seem to be taboo

• Production and mere possession appear to be legal, however.

• The subtext is often to provide a contrast: animal versus sophisticated, raw beast versus culturally guided human. (Nancy Friday comments on this, noting that zoophilia as a fantasy may provide an escape from cultural expectations, restrictions, and judgements in regard to sex.)

  Could the information in the parentheses be presented differently?

• Material featuring sex with animals is widely available on the Internet, due to their ease of production

• Into the 1980s the Dutch took the lead, creating figures like "Wilma" and the "Dutch Sisters".

  — Ocolon 18:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Ocolon. I think you are doing good work simply identifying them. I'll have a doublecheck. Docleaf 09:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed {{NPOV}} tag

The tag's been in place for months, but I haven't seen any discussion in quite a while. As such, I'm removing the tag. Feel free to replace it iff you've got specific concerns you'd like to discuss here. Zetawoof_(ζ) 01:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note Zetawoof. I'm sure editors will get around to NPOVing (WP:NPOV) the article. Docleaf 05:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I added the tag to begin with due to constant dispute. And though there's been a lot of talking, many of the core issues were never taken care of. Some large problems I still see:

• The section Arguments about zoophilia or zoosexual relations is more or less a debate inside of the article. Misplaced Pages shouldn't care for this.
• Mis-citation of research also kind of "debates" and does not provide sufficient evidence of such practices.
• Though reverted and I will not do it again as it will probably just be reverted again, zoophilia and bestiality are not the same, one does not imply the other is also there (not all zoophiles have sex with animals and not all those that practice bestiality are zoophiles) - and thus should NOT share the same article. BabyNuke 15:56, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello BabyNuke. Are you saying there is no source saying zoophilia is the same as bestiality? Also, I agree with you about the miscitations of research. I can't see any evidence for the assertion. Docleaf 09:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It's unclear to me how the distinction between zoophilia and bestiality is significant enough to warrant separate articles for the two. Using the definitions present in this article:

• Zoophilia without bestiality is a sexual attraction to animals that hasn't yet been consummated, whether for religious, moral, or practical reasons. This doesn't seem like a particularly useful distinction to me.
• Bestiality without zoophilia is a sexual act committed with an animal in the absence of sexual desire. I'm not quite sure what this would mean - rape, perhaps?

In light of this, the last sentence in the lead paragraph of the article ("not all sexual acts with animals are performed by zoophiles; and not all zoophiles are sexually interested in animals") seems kind of useless. The last clause, in fact, contradicts the definition given above ("an affinity or sexual attraction by a human to a non-human animal"), so it should probably go.

But I'll throw the question back at you, BabyNuke: How would this division take place? What content would be present in one but not the other? Is there a useful distinction to be made, or would the division be arbitrary? Zetawoof_(ζ) 09:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Zetawoof. I see the inconsistency you are pointing out. The article doesn't need to be consistent though. It only needs to present the sourced views and facts. If there are inconsistencies it is only because of differing views. Docleaf 10:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, given that the last sentence is meant to be a clarification of the definition, it seems important that the article is at least consistent in the application of its own definitions... Zetawoof_(ζ) 10:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Bestiality without the person being a zoophile isn't rape if the animals isn't forced or harmed. What is actually being done decides if it's rape or not, the actual motivation isn't relevant. The devision is quite simple: the bestiality article would include everything related to the actual act: legality, health & safety, historical views, religious views, animal studies, animal welfare, mythology and fantasy literature, pornography. Zoophilia would include everything related to the sexuality: Zoophiles (what is included under that header right now), psychology and research perspectives, social community. In places, the current sections would need some minor changes. The "arguments" section in my opinion can go all together, it's useless. The literature / documentaries section can be present in both articles, though not with the exact same entries. BabyNuke 11:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Tombe the Goat Man

I have the news that more than a year ago, a Sudanese man by the name of Tombe was caught having sex with a goat named Rose and had to pay for his crimes on trial by paying her owner 15,000 dinars and marrying her. Tombe now gets to keep custody of her baby goat upon hearing that Rose died this week. Here's the link for this weird news so you should definitely update it, okay? --Angeldeb82 18:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

There's actually a separate article on that topic: Rose (goat), which covers it in more detail than this one. Zetawoof_(ζ) 18:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Peer Reviewed studies in this area

Here is a comment I made on the Zoosexuality talk page about 8 months ago:

I've noticed with some alarm that there is absolutely NO peer-reviewed published research in this area. The people (Beetz, Miletski, Donofrio) who are constantly referenced as if they are sources of reliable knowledge are in fact scientifically unpublished, all of them! A published doctorate is not the same thing. So there is no evidence-based medicine to rely on in this field, just opinion, speculation and "studies" that have not reached the standard required for journal inclusion. Readers should beware.

It is still true. Please note: in academic circles, "peer review" is not the same as simply publishing a book and getting comments on it. Neither is having a doctoral dissertation approved. It is a formal and rigorous process that scientific research has to withstand before it gets published in a reputable journal. The more reputable the journal, the more rigorous the peer review and the more believable the study. Many (most?) studies fail this process. If you want to know if the study was published in a journal, look it up on Medline (Pubmed). Skopp (Talk) 00:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

FT2 already noted (in an edit summary) that Nancy Friday's My Secret Garden isn't an academic source, so it definitely can't be peer-reviewed. I'm hesitant to refer to a single study (Miletski) as "a number of the most oft-quoted studies". Oft-quoted by whom? Zetawoof_(ζ) 02:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

"Oft-quoted" on the WP pages concerning zoosexuality and zoophilia. Nancy Friday's books are pure pulp fiction, with most of those "fantasies" so similar in style and diction that she probably authored the majority herself. And of course her work of fiction, like the books put out by the other "researchers" mentioned on these pages, does not rise to the level of an academic paper that has had peer review (note: this is a very specific process, look it up) and subsequent publication in a journal of psychology or medicine. Skopp (Talk) 03:36, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to edit-war about that fact tag, as that's probably not going to be productive. I will say this, though: right now, the article is making a claim that "a number of the most oft-quoted studies ... were not published in peer-reviewed journals." This claim is not sourced. In fact, as far as I can tell, it's your own conclusions based on the citations which you see in this article: in other words, it's your original research. Zetawoof_(ζ) 00:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Hardly. It's a simple conclusion based on the facts at hand. Once again, I invite you to peruse Medline. There are some peer reviewed, published studies on this topic in the literature, as you'll see there, but they seemingly do not warrant inclusion on the Zoophila and Zoosexuality pages on WP, the reasons for which I'll allow you to conclude. Unfortunately, quite a few areas in psychology and medicine are plagued by this lack of quality research. This fact should not be hidden; if the research is missing, let us not laud the opinions and writings that stand in its place. Skopp (Talk) 02:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

You may also find this study helpful in understanding why we need to make sure to distinguish between the "grey" literature and proper research. And BTW, I had this same discussion with a doctor on the Prostatitis page on WP, with him insisting (rightly) that the page only cite evidence-based, peer-reviewed, journal-published studies. This is not an issue specific to Zoophilia. Skopp (Talk) 02:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I suspect the same situation arises in regard to many subtopics that fall within (but are not core to) sexology, psychology, sociology, ethology and the like.

Nonetheless you're mistaken regarding lack of review overall. The majority of the key studies were formal theses, both doctoral and post-doctoral, and as such there are controls which are not always operational in the USA. For example:

• Beetz' thesis was in Germany, where (as best I understand it) unlike some countries, an expert in the field from another university is always part of the examining body, and the thesis is published some time before in order to allow critique and attacks upon it by others in the field.

• Miletski's thesis was reviewed by a renowned figure in the field of sexology before being published. In the many years since being published it has retained its credibility in its field, and is still cited as a major work of repute by other authors in this and related fields.

• Beetz's follow-up work was published (along with cites of Miletski) in the Journal of the International Society for Anthrozoology, which is a peer reviewed publication, as part of an extended series on zoosexuality (2005-06). This series, published and reviewed by specialists in human-animal relationship, also appears to have been completely accepted as the work of credible and reputed experts in the field, reporting findings that were not especially considered controversial in the field judging by the style. Views on zoosexuality (ethics, appropriateness, etc) were hotly debated and disagreed with by some contributors, but the findings of research reported by the major names in the field and their place in the field as foundational studies, and their basis as a core part of the debate, were not.

I'm not sure that we should attach a greater expectation to research than those experts actually writing in the field do. Miletski, Beetz, Donfrio, and others, are constantly cited in academia when the topic is written on, and both they and their work is treated invariably as credible, accepted-as-common-knowledge-by-the-consensus, carefully written, and reputable, by others writing in the field. The writings have been published and used by their peers now for a significant number of years. In addition I have found no notable minority of writings from within the field by others denouncing them for bias or poor research - a quite remarkable absence for such a controversial topic and conclusion if the research was even slightly questioned. Instead of doubt, they are treated as foundational and accepted-as-obvious, and cited accordingly. I find it hard to conclude we as reporters of the topic, should do otherwise. FT2 20:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• FT2, the points you make do not refute the point I made. If you disagree with me, I suggest you ask someone who is a true medical or psychological expert for comment. In the last decade, there has been a big swing towards evidence-based medicine (please read that wikipage). Under the new regime, much of the preceding research is inadequate, and not only in this area -- far from it! The fact that someone is published in the field, or has a doctorate, or is well-known, or has had their writings vetted by somebody else of note, is utterly irrelevant. Much higher standards now apply for the publication of research, especially in august and pre-eminent journals. I think your understanding of this point is seriously flawed, especially when you point to journals like the one put out by The International Society for Anthrozoology. This is not a recognised journal. It is not indexed by Medline and is not formally recognized in the fields of medicine or psychology. And lastly, it is not a peer-reviewed journal. From the journal's own website we see they state: "Each issue contains (non-refereed) articles on topics related to the human-animal relationship, interviews with key figures in the field, book announcements, conference news and so forth." Skopp (Talk) 23:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I've read that link too - I think you linked a note on it elsewhere. It's a good thing, I think. However it doesn't change the facts, which are that the experts in this field, have for whatever reason, set a standard (as noted above from all the evidence both positive and negative). There are no notable calls in the field to re-evaluate any findings or conclusions in this field. Despite the call to tighter econtrols, and despite the controversial feelings about in the field, there are no notable voices saying the current basic views to date are no longer considered acceptable to experts in that field, or should be considered questionable.

The long and short of this for us is, we are here, not as researchers and opinion formers, but as reporters on a field, and encyclopedists. The views of experts in this field seem very obvious to assess, to me, and judging by the writings, which are easy to obtain, there is a quite obvious and strong consensus of opinion as to the findings and the credibility of the authors at this point. If there is a notable voice saying such-and-such studies are possibly flawed or in need or re-evaluation before reliance is placed on them, or that the authors are second rate, I can't find it. If that changes in future then so be it, and then it becomes relevant. Until then, to say that it should, and therefore assume it has... Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball applies.

Lacking that, what we have here is basically WP:OR -- it seems you feel that your view of the subject and what constitutes validated information, should nonetheless outweighs the evident view of those who are experts in the field, and who have had many many adequate chances to say very clearly if they felt as you feel they should. But they haven't.

Instead, they clearly disagree with your view that present research is a matter of "alarm" ... and if it were a matter for alarm then it is to the field you would need to protest, not to an encyclopedia that just documents that field's present views. This is a controversial field, should any significant voice/s in the field feel this was a problem I have no doubt their voice would be raised and heard. But (see above) we find exactly the opposite. These include people with decades of experience in the field, and of very strong academic repute, from notable organizations.

I obviously applaud a move to more tight control on evidence in medicine. But thats for outside Misplaced Pages. We aren't the decision makers in the field here. You're effectively asking to impose your own views on validity of research over experts in the field, and at the end of the day, that's inappropriately OR. FT2 02:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, this personal view, using words like "beware" or "alarm", brings to mind nearly identical earlier times that you likewise presented yourself as "alarmist" in style on this very same page and sought to insert your own exaggerated expression of view into the article using terms like "vastly", "infinitely more", exaggeration of risk, and so on. Your reply then was that the hyperbole you gave was "for effect", justified because this was not the artcle but only "the discussion page" . At that time I tried to explain that we are here only to report what is "out there" in the field, not our own research, not our own views and syntheses on what the field "should" be saying, not hyperbole for effect. That's still how it stands. I thought we had dealt with this aspect to wikipedia editing, over time. FT2 03:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• Back on topic, and resisting responding to the inevitable personal jibes, this conversation is about whether or not readers need to know that the expert opinions frequently referenced on the zoophilia page (and related pages) are not published in peer-reviewed journals. I say they do need to know. The paucity of good, evidence-based research is a fact, not OP or crystal ball gazing. There are peer reviewed studies out here, even recent ones, such as this one (quoted below), but nobody seems to want to include these studies here. I wonder why? A few scientifically-oriented editors are required to work on this page, updating it with recent research, no matter whether their personal views are contradicted or not. Skopp (Talk) 04:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

And BTW yes, this IS pertinent to zoophilia, for just as "bestiality" redirects to this page, so do these acts fall under the "zoophilia" rubric. To deny this shows that you have a political agenda on this page and you should therefore resile from further editorship for the sake of Misplaced Pages. Skopp (Talk) 04:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I notice you are now singling out the page on zoophilia to have a disclaimer that it's articles are not “peer reviewed”. You say you haven't an agenda but thats not how it seems. This is kind of like the issue were school slapped stickers on science textbooks saying “Evolution is just a theory” where one topic (article) or viewpoint is given special negative treatment or extra demands different from others because of a person's focus or belief. E.g. you added this fact to the article as being a verifiable fact, but no evidence to support it.

Additionally, this is not a place for advocating. It seems like you are working with a goal in mind to have the article reflect what you believe it should without first understanding (or following) the wikipedias process and purpose (from what I know it to be). This really shows up where you pretty much state that all the editors here are slanted for not including information you want to see here and if they disagree, it's only further proof that they have a political agenda. Steele the Wolf 01:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Mr Wolf, I am not advocating anything. The simple fact that the ideas of the so-called cognoscenti referenced in this and related articles are not published in peer-reviewed journals has deep significance to anyone of a scientific bent. It is of little import to the general reader, that is so. But psychologists, psychiatrists and researchers are entitled to know the status of research in this area, and my small addition of the caveat about the extent of evidence-based research should not be excluded on specious grounds. Comparing me to an anti-evolutionist is ironic, since I am taking the stance of enlightened scientific research, not mumbo-jumbo, grey literature and religion. Skopp (Talk) 04:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit busy at the moment, I'll come back to this topic later this week, when I've got more time free (it's a bit busy the next few days till the weekend). (So you know it's not ignored.) FT2 12:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Zoophilia not Zoosexuality

If Zoophilia is not Zoosexuality, why are there three Zoosexual pictures presented in this article. Some authors here obviously have very sinister objectives.82.6.114.172 19:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The former is a valid point; it hasn't come up before. What might be nice is a suggestion of a good picture that would be appropriate to illustrate non-sexual zoophilia? Maybe something related to other animal lovers that would count as "zoophilia"? Probably not myth and legend though, we already have some imagery from that sphere. Does Category:Human-animal relationships provide any ideas? FT2 12:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

(comment reverted - reincarnation of known banned editor) FT2 23:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

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