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Revision as of 22:54, 26 June 2007

	Intelligent design is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 2, 2005 Peer review Reviewed January 21, 2006 Good article nominee Listed October 16, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 9, 2007 Peer review Reviewed February 23, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current status: Featured article

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Archives

• (2002-2003)
• (2003)
• (Jan-Sep 2004, 53kb) - Are oppositions/criticisms of ID relevant?
• (Aug-Oct 2004, 46kb) - Is ID theory falsifiable?
• (Sep-Nov 2004, 42kb) - Overwhelming majority: POV? What does "scientific" mean?
• (Nov-Dec 2004)
• (Dec 2004-early Jan 2005)
• (Jan-April 2005)
• (April-May 2005)
• (Early - Mid June 2005) - Structured debate; the Pryamid analogy; Article Splits)
• Archives 11, 12, 13
• (Mid-August/Mid-Sept 2005) - ID as creationism; ID proponent's religious agenda; ID as scientific hypothesis
• (Mid-Sept/Early-Oct 2005) - Computer simulations & irreducible complexity, Criticisms of criticism, Footnote misnumbering, NPOV
• (Mid-Oct 2005)
• (Mid to late-Oct 2005) - Mainly involving users from uncommondescent.com and admins
• (Late Oct to early Nov 2005)
• (early to mid Nov 2005)
• (Mid Nov 2005) Tisthammer's and ant's objections
• (Nov 2005) Enormous bulk of text
• (30 Nov - 3 Dec 2005) various proposals, peer review
• (Early Dec 2005) - Mostly chatter concerning the current pool of editors
• (Mid Dec 2005) - Whether intelligent design is to be upper case or lower case
• (Late Dec 2005) Two major re-orgs and the Kitzmiller decision
• Marshills NPOV objections
• Reintroduction of Vast discussion
• Archives 27, 28, 29
• July 2006
• August 2006
• DI warning, DI and leading proponents again
• First archive of 2007
• January 22, 2007
• Jan – early Feb 2007
• Feb 9 - Mar 30, 2007
• - April 19, 2007
• Initial work towards a consensus lead in April 2007.
• April 19-April 26, 2007
• April - early May 2007, including work on lead.
• May 2007 unproductive discussions
• Archive 41

Points that have already been discussed

The following ideas were discussed. Please read the archives before bringing up any of these points again:

1. Is ID a theory?

   Fact and Theory

   Does ID really qualify as a Theory?

2. Is ID/evolution falsifiable?

   Falsification

   Falsifiability

   ID is allegedly not empirically testable, falsifiable, etc.

3. Is the article too littered with critique, as opposed to, for example, the evolution article?

   Criticism that the Intelligent design page does not give citations to support ID opponents' generalizations

   What ID's Opponents Say; is it really relevant?

   Bias?

   Various arguments to subvert criticism

   Critics claim ...

   Anti-ID bias

   Apparent partial violation NPOV policy

   Why are there criticizms

   Critics of ID vs. Proponents

4. Isn't ID no more debatable than evolution?

   Argument Zone

   The debatability of ID and evolution

5. Isn't ID actually creationism by definition, as it posits a creator?

   ID in relation to Bible-based creationism

   What makes ID different than creationism

   Moving ID out of the "creationism" catagory

   Shouldn't this page be merged with creationism?

   ID not Creationism?

6. Are all ID proponents really theists?

   ID proponents who are not theists

   A possible atheist/agnostic intelligent design advocate?

7. Are there any peer-reviewed papers about ID?

   Scientific peer review

   Peer-reviewed stuff of ID (netcody)

8. Is ID really not science?

   ...who include the overwhelming majority of the scientific community...

   Meaning of "scientific"

   Why sacrifice truth

   Rejection of ID by the scientific community section redundant

   Intelligent design is Theology, not Science

   Philosophy in the introduction

   Why ID is not a theory

   Bad philosophy of science (ID is allegedly not empirically testable, falsifiable etc.)

   The "fundamental assumption" of ID

   Peer-reviewed articles

   Figured out the problem

9. Is ID really not internally consistent?;

   Distingushing Philosophical ID (TE) from the DI's Pseudo-Scientific ID

   The many names of ID?

   Removed section by User:Tznkai

   Pre- & post- Kitzmiller, proponents seek to redefine ID

   Defining ID

   Figured out the problem

   "Intelligent evolution"

   ID on the O'Reilly Factor

10. Is the article too long?

    Article Size

    Notes

    The Article Is Too Long

11. Does the article contain original research that inaccurately represents minority views?

    Inadequate representation of the minority View

    The "fundamental assumption" of ID

12. Is the intelligent designer necessarily irreducibly complex? Is a designer needed for irreducibly complex objects?

    Irreducibly complex intelligent designer

    Settling Tisthammerw's points, one at a time

    The "fundamental assumption" of ID

    Irreducibly complex

    Irreducible complexity of elementary particles

    Repeated objections and ignoring of consensus

    Suggested compromise

    Resolution to Wade's & Ant's objections (hopefully)

13. Discussion regarding the Introduction:

    Intro (Rare instance of unanimity)

    Introduction (Tony Sidaway suggests)

14. Is this article is unlike others on Misplaced Pages?

    Why is Wiki Violating its own POV rule

    Call for new editors

    Archives 22, 23, 24

15. Is this article NPOV?

    NPOV

    Archive 25

16. Are terms such as 'scientific community' or 'neocreationist' vague concepts?

    Support among scientists

    "Neocreationist" social, not scientific, observation

    Archive 26

17. How should Darwin's impact be described?

    Pre-Darwinian Ripostes\

18. Peer Review and ID

    Peer review?

    Lack of peer review

    Peer Review: Reviewed

19. Discovery Institute and leading ID proponents

    Are all leading ID proponents affiliated with Discovery Institute?

    Archive 32

20. Why is intelligent design lower case, not upper case?

    Renaming Intelligent design as Intelligent Design

21. Is the article trying to equate ID with Christian Creationism and the Discovery Institute too much?

    The article discusses the formulation disseminated by the Discovery Institute affiliates

Ref for first sentence

I spotted this while getting the above Behe quote:

"Its principal argument is that certain features of the universe are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than undirected causes such as Darwin's theory of natural selection." - Pamphlet used by the Dover Area School District, agreed as accurate by Behe.

This might be worth adding, but it's a bit of an odd source, so I didn't want to just go ahead and do so. As an aside, I like "undirected causes" better than "undirected processes", but assembling our favourite parts of all the variants would become more awkward than just paraphrasing in the end, and "Darwin's theory of" is just awful. Adam Cuerden 18:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Since it's completely consistent with the existing def as used by the 3 leading organizations, of which Behe is a Fellow of 2, I don't see to need to add it as a source or alter the def. FeloniousMonk 03:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Eh, evrything seems to need over-referenced of late. Adam Cuerden 07:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:A does not require, and never required, a direct citation for every statement in an article. Summaries and other descriptions of one or more aspects of a topic quite frequently involve a consensus process about how something will be expressed in "original language", which is quite different from "original research". The additional footnotes, as FeloniousMonk has previously observed and with which I agree at this stage of discussion, help to make clear, to persons whose wont is to make hasty conclusions or assert pre-conceived conclusions about some aspect of the content, that the article reflects a great deal of attention to sourcing. Occasionally, there is legiimate question about whether a particular footnote properly reflects the article-statement(s) to which it is appended, or vice-versa. In my personal opinion that's more than fair enough (assuming it's a rational question), and I believe there may still be some more work to be done on those 170-or-so footnotes. ... Kenosis 13:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Ayemm true, but so many of the questions of late are completely irrational. Adam Cuerden 13:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

But as you saw in the trolling questions in the recently archived discussion, no one reads the references. Well, we do. Speaking of references, is this article stable enough to begin cleaning up and formatting the inline cites?Orangemarlin 14:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, yes. It's not really undergoing major changes - the dispute I was part of blew over in the end, hopefully to everyone's reasonable satisfaction, and wthere's only stamndard editing of late. Adam Cuerden 14:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I was referring above to the specific content of citations, for instance several of the footnotes in the "Defining intelligent design as science" section and perhaps a few others too. Please do not combine citations. Not only is it important to make clear that there are separate sources involved in supporting many of the statements in the article, a fair number of the citations in this article are derived from the same sources (especially but not limited to the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision), but they actually refer specifically to different places in those sources. Please keep'm separate. If one or more turns out to be erroneous or misplaced, it should be able to be dealt with by referring to a specific number (e.g. "currently footnote x" or "presently footnote y"). No objection to standardizing the format (though I personally dislike those forms that've been used by many on WP of late). The present method of presentation appears to be that quotations are put first in the footnote with the source placed after the quote, a method I'm willing to support-- any thoughts about this? ... Kenosis 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the "quotations-first" approach, particularly in cases where multiple parts of the same document may be referred to. It makes it much easier to see which part of the cited work is being used to justify the statement being made. SheffieldSteel 21:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. I like when the cite says "blah blah blah blah blah" in: Smith, M (2006), Intelligent design is controlled by Mickey Mouse. Journal of Uncovering BS 22 (1):100-105. And combining references suck. Orangemarlin 06:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

(ri). I agree with all three of Kenosis' points: combining footnotes creates problems in verification and tends to obscure the actual facts; the form used in many WP articles is abominable; and quoting first and adding a link to the source is fine. Above all, though, is your first point: do not combine. •Jim62sch• 21:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think combining is a good idea in non-cotroversial articles, but accept there's enough idiots tha t we can't do it for ID. Adam Cuerden 09:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh my Adam. Are you implying there are idiots out and about? Orangemarlin 01:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Now, do you mean IDiots? Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

As opposed to evilutionists. -PromX1 13:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, who made those up, anyway? Samsara (talk • contribs) 13:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I saw HELLiocentric once

OMG, that is almost as good as TFiaToS Samsara (talk • contribs) 18:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent vs Modern

In the first paragraph the adjective "modern" implies some positive judgment on this form of the argument, while "recent" would be a more neutral one.--BMF81 23:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I just changed it to recent. Feel free to do it yourself though: Misplaced Pages:Be bold in updating pages. Cheers, Rothery 10:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC).

I suppose I can imagine how "recent" might be considered more "neutral" than "modern" to persons who regard "modern form" as somehow inherently preferable to "traditional ... argument...", or that "modern" is somehow either inherently preferable or inherently negative. Frankly, I don't see how "recent form of the traditional teleological argument..." is preferable or more neutral than "modern form of the traditional teleological argument...". ("Hey, what have you been doing recently?" "Well, for the past 20 years now I've been substituting the words "intelligent design" for the word "creationism". What have you been up to?") Any thoughts about this issue of "recent" as opposed to "modern" among those who are more familiar with the article? ... Kenosis 14:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

"Modern" seems more accurate, in my opinion, and, in the context it's being used, seems to be judgement-neutral. "Recent" is a very inexact, questionable substitution. Adam Cuerden 15:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

"Recent" implies that there was no predecessor to ID, and if you bother to read the sources given in the article see that we have sources indicating there was indeed a predecessor: "ID is not a new scientific argument, but is rather an old religious argument for the existence of God. He traced this argument back to at least Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century." Dover ruling, page 24. Clearly the use of "recent" is inaccurate here, and I have at least half a dozen other notable reliable sources that all support that ID is simply a restatement of a much older teleological argument, meaning "recent" is never going to fly. I will add them to the article if necessary. FeloniousMonk 15:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The sentence is:

It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.

So straight after modern/recent it goes and explains that it is an old candy bar in a new wrapper. I still think 'modern' is a loaded word and would prefer something more neutral such as recent, or maybe even a year if it doesn't take up too much space. But if you guys think 'modern' will suffice, then it will. Cheers, Rothery 23:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC).

If one reads the article further, it turns out to be a fairly complex mix of ideological socio-political educational advocacy, a form of philosophy/religion/theology cast as science for the purpose of teaching creation-based views in the public school biology classes in the US. Yes, I'm sorry to say it turns out to be an old candy bar, with a modern sugar-coating, in a new wrapper. And yes, a lot of these points are debatable. .... Kenosis 01:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Modern and recent are not synonyous, no matter what Mr Roget has to say. •Jim62sch• 18:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Origins

The article currently states that the first written record of the idea of a designer came from Greek philosophers, but nearly every culture in the world has some type of creation story. I really only know about western traditions, but the old testament surely pre-dates the greek. Is it because these creation stories are considered religious writing and the Greeks are considered philosophical writings the reason the Greek are used here?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.70.121 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello!

First, if you "sign" your posts with four tilde symbols (~~~~) it will put your IP address or username after your post, so we know who we're talking to. Secondly, to try to answer your question, I think that there's a distinction to be made - between a creator and a designer - which is important but subtle (and one which many groups fail to make). Perhaps we should emphasise that contrast more in the article? Let's see what other editors have to say. SheffieldSteel 20:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

There is definitely no singular creation myth. A solitary designer, however, is part-and-parcel to the philosophies of individualism which, though not entirely Western, are almost always viewed by scholars as originating with the Greeks and subsequently co-opted by the monotheism developing in the Roman world. A contrary case may be possible, but it isn't the place for Misplaced Pages to attack the view that individualism/monotheism originated with the West: that would be original research. --ScienceApologist 21:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

More to the point in this article, the Ancient Greeks were the first to record the teleological argument – ooh, that natural object looks complicated, it must have been designed, there, that proves God exists. See also the Babel fish. That's generally considered to be the concept or argument underlying ID, though perhaps the main concept is "if we call creation science ID, we can sell schoolbooks and get it taught in U.S. public schools". Anyway, if you find an example of the teleological argument in the Old Testament, please cite it chapter and verse....... dave souza, talk 21:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC) correkted 21:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Job 38-39, off the top of my head. Tevildo 06:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me: where's the teleological argument in that? Lot of boasting from someone claiming to run a flat earth cosmology, complete with corners to the earth and gates to stop water from popping up from underneath. Nowt about design, afaik. Do explain, and for the purposes of this article provide confirmation of the the dating of Job to see if it preceded Plato, as well as a source making this argument in relation to ID so it's not original research. Unless, of course, it's just off topic. ... dave souza, talk 08:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

According to our article, the book of Job dates from the 4th century BC, and so is more-or-less contemporary with Plato. I doubt if either author was familiar with the other's work, though. :) On the issue in question, I'm not aware of any arguments for the existence of God to be found in the Bible itself; to answer the original enquiry, there's a difference between professing a belief in God (or any other controversial subject), and providing an argument for this belief. The idea of a formal argument does originate with the Greek philosophers, specifically Parmenides, and the text reads: "The first recorded arguments for a designer..." (emphasis added). Hope this clarifies things a little. Tevildo 14:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

IMO, there's no need for the second sentence of that section. ("The first recorded arguments for a designer come from Greek philosophy.") It could just as easily and accurately read:

• Philosophers have long debated whether the complexity of nature indicates the existence of a purposeful natural or supernatural designer/creator. In the 4th century BC, Plato posited a "demiurge" of supreme wisdom and intelligence as the creator of the cosmos in his Timaeus. Aristotle also developed the idea of a creator-designer of the cosmos, often called the "Prime Mover," in his work Metaphysics. In De Natura Deorum, or "On the Nature of the Gods" (45 BC), Cicero stated that "the divine power is to be found in a principle of reason which pervades the whole of nature."

... Kenosis 15:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

<unindent>I think that would be OK, provided we change the section title to something like "History of the concept" (rather than "Origin"). If we're staying with "Origin", we need to make a definite statement about the first use of the concept (presumably by Plato). Tevildo 15:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, good point Tevildo. I've no objection to the removal of that unnecessary (and somewhat speculative) sentence and the retitling of the section as "History of the concept". I think it's fairly straightforward and ought be uncontroversial, though if I'm wrong about that I'm sure I'll be corrected quickly enough. Any objections? ... Kenosis 16:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Over all I think the article gives too much credence to :

the 'concept' of Intelligent design. The first sentence should state that it is a marketing ploy. Xavier cougat 17:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Tried that. Lead balloon :-( SheffieldSteel 17:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't fit WP:NPOV and is hard to reference. Readers should see for themselves that the evidence overwhelmingly points to the DI's mindset. Besides, I'm pretty sure that a lot of those less influenced by information truly believe that c#*p, so it'd be notable as a concept anyway. Malc82 19:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

objections

• 1. spontenious order - see snow flakes
• 2. artificial intelligence - though man made, shows that natural processes can be made to do just about any thing observable in the natural world.
• 3. comprehension seems the only unexplained characteristic of human cognition linked perhaps to sentient awareness, but not linked to actual functioning of the material world and thus not demonstratable as a necessity.
• 4. without specific goals or purpose the natural world cannot be demonstrated to be consciously directed or designed.
• 5. the universe in total seems very barren of life and just what one would expect from random forces and spontenious order rather than intelligent design.
• 6. If Intelligence is seen as a function of evolved systems, then an intelligent designer is no answer just a prior evolved system and only puts the mystery back one step rather than answering any questions.
• 7. the only apparent avoidance of infinite regression is to postulate that elementry particles moving according to their own nature evolving into complex systems can explain anything at all.

Jiohdi 17:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not get what you are saying here. Xavier cougat 19:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Such opinions have to be attributed to a reliable source which specifically relates the synthesis of facts to ID so that it doesn't breach WP:NOR, and have to be dealt with proportionately in what is already a long and complex article, while adhering scrupulously to WP:NPOV as is set out at the top of this talk page. This page is about suggesting improvements to the article – got any proposals which are fully backed up in accordance with these policies? .. dave souza, talk 19:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

ID is not internally consistent. It begins with the assertion that complex things can only exist if designed. So there must be a designer. But the designer was not designed by a designer. So, if the designer exists the original assertion is untrue. This takes us back into babel fish territory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.193.200.51 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC).

You are misunderstanding ID theory. No where does it say that everything that is complex is designed. And now where does it say the designer was designed. It is not that simplistic. 209.101.205.82 16:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

But if some structures are too complex to emerge without being designed, wouldn't a being, complex enough to create those structures also be too complex to emerge without design? If not why? Is the designer simpler than an eye, and if so how did it design one? ornis 01:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Cradle of Life AfD

Heads up on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cradle of Humanity - Cradle of humanity is some sort of comparison of Evolutionary and Creationist views of the Out of Africa theory... Adam Cuerden 08:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Any descent from Lara Croft must be considered highly improbable ;) . . dave souza, talk 10:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion That Will Almost Certainly Be Shot Down

Hi! I think you guys are doing an excellent job keeping such a high quality on this controversial topic, but about the footnotes... Sadly, on many articles, these footnotes aren't so much helpful to rational readers, but are perhaps used to prove the point to POV-pushers. This is a pity. Here is the suggestion. Why not create a separate evidence page as a sub-page of this talk page, and keep all the refs there, normal readers would need one or two refs for many of these claims. Additionally, I'm sure there is some policy that forbids this, but what would be the harm in replacing a bunch of footnotes with a single footnote saying "Evidence for this claim is available here" or something like that? Many apologies if this has already been discussed, but I really felt like I wanted to say this. I'm not going to push this issue any further so thanks for considering it, Merzul 12:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, there is a technical reason, why this was a bad idea. Misplaced Pages mirrors don't carry talk pages and their sub-pages... I knew there had to be some problems, or something like this would probably already be in use. Ah well... --Merzul 12:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, it's perfectly possible to combine multiple footnotes into one. It's done on Evolution, for instance. But this page, sadly enough, is even more controversial than Evolution (!!), and, frankly, there's a lot of stupidity in the objectors: They kept talking about how only one reference said something, while clearly having never looked down to see that "one reference" was, in fact, 10 different articles.

Yeah, I know, it's stupid. But what can we do? Adam Cuerden 13:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there any way to differentiate (e.g. by bold vs non-bold, colour, whatever) between purely 'defensive' references and references that may provide valuable further reading? This would mean that we could have both, while ensuring that those non-nitpickers only interested in the latter would not have to plough through the former to find them. Hrafn42 13:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Further reading sections should be handled separately, in fact there is one in this article but it only consists of one book. If you count the external links as further reading (which I would), there already are enough reading suggestions in this article. Malc82 13:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Replying to Adam. I wish there was some neat solution to this though, because grouping refs has problems of its own, especially when one of the group is used elsewhere, and it doesn't really address the main concern, namely that we are catering to POV-pushers at the expense of reasonable readers. I feel it is an insult to my intellect to have all these refs about the same claim. The argument for keeping them is that when one of them is removed, then a POV-pusher is going to insist we use prose attribution, such as "According to the court ruling, its primary proponents are ..." Well, it is a sad fact that just because POV-pushers cause more trouble, contributors to these articles care more about their feelings than mine. Note, this melodramatic tone was just to make my point, I'm not actually sad, and fully understand that perhaps we just have to live with this. --Merzul 14:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Adam's assessment is correct. Repeatedly there have been objections to facts and issues that are stated in the article based on WP:A. Virtually every conceivable rational objection and countless irrational objections have been raised, despite clearcut evidence from a wide variety of reliable sources including legal and scientific sources. In numerous instances the person objecting quite plainly has not even looked at the relevant footnotes. Providing separate footnotes makes clear that there are multiple reliable sources for statements in the article which have been objected to in the past. Most of the participants in this process agree that it would be preferable if this were not the case, but given that it is the case, separate footnotes have been agreed to be presented. The only conspicuous exception to this practice is in what is presently footnote 20 in the second lead paragraph, which remains combined as before, but is supported by multiple footnotes later in the paragraph. ... Kenosis 14:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

overview edit

I added this to the overview section: "The Harris poll also showed that a majority of U.S. adults (54%) do not think human beings developed from earlier species." I thought to bring up a poll and only show one narrow aspect of it was slightly bias, what does everyone else think? (Dbcraft 18:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

This is a great argument for getting rid of all those poor quality polls. One problem with the above inclusion is that it shows 54% of US adults not believing in evolution. That's all very well, but this article is all about Intelligent design, so it's not really relevant. Or was your point that we could also quote, say, opinion polls showing how many US adults believe Elvis is alive? I might be down with that. It would certainly put things in context. SheffieldSteel 18:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That is a good point, I added "64% of respondents in the Harris poll believed human beings were created by God" as part of the Harris poll instead. I believe that is directly relevent to ID. Harris is a more reputable polling company than the one contracted by the Discovery Group, as was stated in the article. I think to show one question of the poll is misleading and bias, my addition will add to the neutrality of the article. (Dbcraft 18:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

The quality of the polls is already the matter being covered in that section, so the actual numbers are of secondary concern and need not be expanded on. Coverage of the polls is necessary because the DI often touts its Zogby poll results as evidence of support for what it seeks to do. Odd nature 19:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes the quality of the Zogby polls is being covered in that section but not the Harris poll. Not that I question the quality of the Harris poll, it just seems that one question of the poll was cherry picked, leaving the reader without an overall feel for the poll results. (Dbcraft 19:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

It is true that there is a wide difference between popular beliefs and scientific consensus. In the United States, roughly half reject evolution in favor of some form of the statement "created by God" when given the choice, and at least two-thirds believe God was involved in the process in some way. Then there's that roughly 10% who, given a mutually exclusive set of options such as was characteristic of the 2005 Harris Interactive poll, picked the option that humans are so complex that they required an intelligence of some kind to have been created. The scientific community, on the other hand, the particular community that is most involved when the issue is what is taught in science classes, asserts that intelligent design is not science (or worse), and should not be taught as biology. The scientific community overwhelmingly asserts this no matter what their faiths or personal beliefs are, consistent with that they're dealing in science, not personal beliefs.

Thus, although I see the relevance of the Zogby poll of the Los Alamos community, I do not see the relevance of the Harris Poll or any other. As for other polls of popular belief in the US, here are a couple more examples:

• A 2007 Newsweek poll found that 48% of respondents reject the theory of evolution .
• A 2007 CBS/New York Times poll found that "...51 percent of Americans say God created humans in their present form, and another three in 10 say that while humans evolved, God guided the process. Just 15 percent say humans evolved, and that God was not involved. These views are similar to what they were in November 2004" The 2004 CBS/New York Times poll summary said "Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools."

... Kenosis 21:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Origins of the Term

Propose the following link to an extensive list of references on the origins and use of the term "Intelligent Design":

ResearchID maintains the Intelligent Design timetable summarizing origins and use of the term "Intelligent Design". DLH 19:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis Please show the policy denying reference to any wiki. Misplaced Pages itself provides for numerous internal links which are by definition to a wiki. Misplaced Pages provides anti-ID links. If you deny any references to wikis, then you must also delete

• The evo wiki article on intelligent designDLH 19:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This timeline, even if it is accurate, is more about the origins of the concept, not the term. I have to personally say, who cares? I mean really...--Filll 19:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

There's two problems here with using researchintelligentdesign.org, one, it's partisan, two, its a wiki, and so fails to meet WP:RS. It's also terribly incomplete. At first glance it's clearly lacking any mention of the context Thaxton and Pandas, such as Edwards v. Aguillard, most likely a function of its partisanship. Odd nature 20:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikis fail WP:RS (not peer reviewed and lots of other stuff). Generally, encyclopedias are usually not allowed to be used as references. Also, since you yourself could edit the other article, using WP-articles as a reference violates WP:NOR. Malc82 20:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, well. He has edited the other article: Some may view this as an attempt to sneak pov in through the backdoor. Odd nature 20:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

In fact, that you are #2 on ResearchID's contributor Top 5 means there almost certainly is an OR conflict here. Malc82 20:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a nice timeline, relatively very thorough even if it has some noticeable gaps.

(1) It is not conventional practice in WP to refer folks in the fashion proposed above, even internally within WP to such subpages, unless its an article about the timeline.

(2) In the case of intelligent design, we have two timelines involved, one of which is the history of the teleological argument, and the other of which is the history of the use of the words "intelligent design". The words "intelligent design" didn't become a term intended to describe a field of study until Of Pandas and People, when they were used to replace the word "creation-" in response to the decision in Edwards v. Aguilard.

I notice, though, that Walter R. Thurston uses the words "intelligent design" and "intelligently designed" in a paper titled "Realism and Reverence" presented in 1985 at a conference on "Christian Faith and Science in Society", which was later published in June 1987, the same month of the Edwards v. Aguilard decision, in PSCF, "Perspectives on Science & Christian Faith". He uses the words in exactly the same way as James E. Horigan does in the 1979 philosophy book Chance or Design?. I think this usage should be mentioned in the WP article section on "Origins of the term". ... Kenosis 20:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

What about User_talk:Dave_souza/ID_timeline? It's heavily-referenced, non-partisian, and, frankly, could probably make WP:FL easily. I'm sure Dave would release it to article space if we asked. Adam Cuerden 04:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

As a separate article, perhaps. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

<unindent> Methinks Adam's idea would be as a separate article: it could be stripped down to a more minimal timeline, or made into a brief historical outline. At present it's become more of a resource, with a lot of quotes etc. which could be paraphrased. On a point Kenosis makes, this is a third timeline, perhaps more about the ID movement though of course it and ID are inextricably connected. It currently seems to me that ID appeared fully formed between 1987 and 1989 with Pandas defining what it is and starting political lobbying, while in parallel Johnson's wedge ideas developed and didn't adopt the term until 1991 at the earliest. It would be helpful to know if Darwin on Trial uses the term "intelligent design" – all I've got at present is an unreliable source indicating a few mentions in the 1993 edition, but none of the reviews or Johnson's writings that I've seen mention ID. Certainly Behe contributed to Pandas rev. 2 in 1993, and by May 1995 Johnson is promoting the term. The DI takeover really seems to come with the CRSC in 1996. Perhaps this something y'all know about, but it's still a bit puzzling to me. Anyway, the ResearchID timeline is a useful guide to resources, though not a RS itself, but is largely focussed on giving a respectable pedigree to ID rather than finding out what's going on. In my opinion. ... dave souza, talk 21:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

So... that going to move into article space? If it does, we should link it in this article. Adam Cuerden 12:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for making the move, Intelligent design timeline is rather large and could do with more dates/events added, and a lot of the quotes removed or severely trimmed. Have made a start, Note the standard heading format would be Timeline of intelligent design – worth moving? .. dave souza, talk 20:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I added it to see also -- if you change the title, make sure you change the link and its ciolumn placement in this article. Either title is OK by me, although the latter might be more encyclopedic. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hard to say. In a paper encyclopaedia, they sometimes game the titles to group 'em, soght be used to put it next to Intelligent design. Adam Cuerden 21:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The commonest format in Category:Timelines is "Timeline of ...", and the same applies to Category:Religion timelines where it seemed to belong.. dave souza, talk 21:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, so move it? Maybe? (You should see me trying to pick an entree from a menu ;) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 15:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Need some assistance at Talk:A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism

This looks like a bit of controversy.--Filll 16:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Intro: ID as Creationism

Could Morphh & Pasado please stop edit-warring and discuss there differences here! Specifically, could Morphh please explain why they think calling ID creationism is POV in spite of noted historian of creationism Ronald Numbers including a whole chapter on ID in his latest edition of The Creationists and in spite of Judge Jones declaring "...and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents." Would he also consider these to be "POV" sources? Hrafn42 14:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The lead sentence of an article should briefly describe what the article is about and define the lead term. Please have a look at fine-tuned universe, communism, Bible, dark matter, totalitarianism, which are although not completely random, but still assorted examples from various wikipedia aticles. What also could be added to the lead sentence is a description or definition by the proponents or inventors of the term. In this case, the standpoint of the Discovery Institute could be included. Especially since the DI claims that ID is different from Creationism. Criticism, including interpretations by others of the term should follow later. Northfox 14:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

A "brief description" of ID that does not provide the important information that ID is a variant of Creationism is arguably an inaccurate description. There is no necessity to include "a description or definition by the proponents or inventors of the term" -- an action that would often violate WP:Undue Weight. Given that, far from being a reliable source, it is not too unreasonable to describe the DI as "a bunch of professional liars," I consider their claims to be immaterial. Hrafn42 15:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The lead of this article has a very long and greatly debated history (the most I've seen of any article on Misplaced Pages). So please go back and take a look if you wish to torture yourself. Any such change to the lead should not be introduced without serious discussion here first. I'll state, as I have in the summary, that I disagree this addition without debate and some consensus, of which I currently oppose the addition. Our Misplaced Pages definition of Creationism states the "belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their entirety by a supernatural deity or deities (typically God), whose existence is presupposed." Obviously ID says nothing about these things being created in their entirety, in fact it says the opposite stating only that some complex features of life and the universe were created by an intelligent cause. ID doesn't specify deity or deities (presupposed or not), doesn't specify all life, the earth?... If you add on top of this that Creationism has come to be most strongly associated with the branch of Christian fundamentalism, the statement gives the reader a very inaccurate and misleading idea of ID. The statements of creationist, thus religious, is a POV presented in the trial by the Judge and the author that you specified. Such can be included in the article with the presented source for the opinion, but it is POV to state this as fact in the lead when there is nothing in ID itself that states or defines such an argument and a differing POV exists. Morphh 14:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, changes to the lead need to be discussed here. Yes, ID is creationism (in a cheap tuxedo). No, I don't care about the Misplaced Pages definition of creationism, as Wikis do not meet WP:RS. Is pointing out in the first sentence that ID is creationism POV? quite probably.

Also, are you saying you oppose consensus? And what precisely does this mean, "The statements of creationist, thus religious, is a POV presented in the trial by the Judge"? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 15:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

1. I rather doubt if anywhere in the "very long and greatly debated history" you will find a consensus that ID is not, or even may not be, Creationism.
2. The Creationism article includes a section on ID among the "types of creationism"
3. ID is a close relative of Progressive creationism
4. "Indeed, intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John’s Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory." -- William Dembski, leading ID advocate, explicitly admitting ID's Biblical roots and close relationship with Christianity.
5. Throwing POV accusations at anybody and everybody who, on the basis of trial evidence and/or scholarly research, comes to the conclusion that ID is Creationism merely serves to to undermine your credibility, and to negate WP:AGF

Hrafn42 15:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Jim, I oppose the addition not consensus. I was saying that the court ruling and the Judge's comment were a point of view that is debated. As such, I find it improper to label it as fact without attributing it. Hrafn42, I'm no throwing accusation - it is a point of view (opinion) ruled by the court with others differing on that opinion. It is also just confusing for most readers and I don't think it adds anything. Morphh 15:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Morphh: You are grossly misrepresenting Judge Jones. It was not a personal opinion (i.e. a POV) it was a legal opinion based upon the law and the evidence. The only people claiming otherwise are the IDists themselves, who (1) have enormous credibility problems (due to their long track records of misrepresentations and outright lies) and (2) have a very strong ulterior motive in denying that ID is Creationism (as otherwise they wouldn't be able to have it taught in public school science classes). Read up WP:Undue Weight Hrafn42 16:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

There is already adequate reference in the article to intelligent design being creationist, or more specifically neo-creationist. This classification needn't, however, occur in the lead sentence, or for that matter anywhere in the lead. Morphh, who I presume will correct me if I'm wrong, appears to have asserted in the edit summary that it the proposed change is POV because (1) Judge Jones referred to "creationist, and thus religious antecedents" (emphasis mine); (2) The Kitzmiller judge was stating that it is inherently religious, but not necessarily classifying it as creationist per se ; (3) ID has the characteristic of intentionally avoiding mention of God per the legal strategy of attempting to get it taught alongside evolution in US biology classes. So it's not necessarily very accurate or useful to the reader to be terming ID "creationist". Either way, this intro involved an immense amount of discussion to achieve some level of recent stability, and is not fair game for unilateral changes at this stage in time. Any significant changes would need to be discussed and achieve a new consensus. ... Kenosis 17:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Reread the entire Dover ruling, the judge said specifically ID is creationism. Odd nature 18:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Creationism isn't mentioned in the lead in the current version. That should be fixed. Raul654 18:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The last sentence in the lead discusses the Dover ruling and the Judge's statement - "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents". Morphh 2:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Kenosis, I am not sure that there is much difference between having "creationist...antecedents" (Judge Jones' words) and being "a variant of traditional creationism" (the proposed wording of the intro). Both indicate an outgrowth from an earlier form of creationism. Given that ID, like all earlier forms of Creationism, is at heart religiously-motivated anti-evolutionism, it would seem both accurate and useful to describe it as Creationism up-front, and leave discussing how it attempts to obfuscate its nature to later. An insect that is camouflaged to look like a leaf should be initially described as "an insect" not as "something that looks like a leaf." Hrafn42 18:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, Jones stated: "The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory." He also pointed out: "Moreover and as previously stated, there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism." Hrafn42 18:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Odd Nature, Raul, and Hrafn42 are correct that the Kitzmiller decision went farther than calling creationism an antecedent of ID, but indeed concluded that it was a form of creationism. There are also a few confusing statements in the decision and order, such as the quote from the NAS included in the decision ("Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life..."), and in a couple other places. In general it is clear that the court concluded it is a form of creationism. I'm going to collect relevant passages from Kitzmiller and post them here in Talk so it can be more knowledgeably discussed. ... Kenosis 20:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

<unindent> Ooh, fun! Lots to hand at s:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District/2:Context, Page 31 of 139 has "A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism.,, The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism. What is likely the strongest evidence supporting the finding of ID’s creationist nature is the history and historical pedigree of the book to which students in Dover’s ninth grade biology class are referred, Pandas.", Page 35 of 139 has " there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism." .. best read in context, .. dave souza, talk 20:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The court ruling is not in dispute. The court also stated that ID is an argument for God but we sufficiently debated it enough that we removed the explicit statement of fact from the lead sentence. Same thing here but even more so - not only is it God but creation. Proponent have denied that it is creationism and ID itself makes no direct relation to such. In such a case, the statement has to be attributed to turn the opinion into fact. Personally, I don't see the point of having it in the lead sentence as it adds little to the definition and really just confuses it due to the popular meaning of creationism (not some abstract concept). Creationism, like God, is not a definition of ID but a conclusion based on the motives of DI and whatever the reader draws from the ID claim. It is also duplication and already stated in the lead's last sentence. I think this is the appropriate place where it discusses Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District and the ruling of Judge Jones. Perhaps we could wikilink creationist in this statement to make it more apparent. Morphh 2:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Morphh: The proponents' denial is entirely self-serving, as ID is stealth creationism (i.e. admitting it is creationism would negate the whole stealth thing). ID is closely related to Progressive creationism. We have the expert opinion of two historians of science (one not generally considered to be a partisan) and the legal opinion of one Federal Court judge. Opposing this we have merely the "bare assertion" (to use Judge Jones' words) that ID is not Creationism of a bunch of people whose entire movement goes down the toilet when ID is admitted to be Creationism. Both ID and Creationism generally are, at core, nothing more than religiously-motivated anti-evolutionism. They are substantively identical even if, for legal reasons, they differ somewhat in form. Having this core identity front and centre is not "confusing" but rather is crucial to understanding ID. Hrafn42 03:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Hrafn42, it's a bit unfair to say that they're "nothing more than religiously-motivated anti-evolutionism" – creationism as we now know it has also involved political motivations ever since it was started by William Jennings Bryan, and it's as much a battle between competing theologies in the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy as it is (as is often claimed) a struggle between religion and science. ... dave souza, talk 08:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Dave: what evidence have you that William Jennings Bryan's opposition to evolution was political rather than religious? My impression was that his main anti-evolution campaigning occurred after his political career was over (or at least in the final stages of winding down), and that it was primarily religiously motivated. And it is often difficult to differentiate between the Fundamentalists' opposition to the Modernists and their opposition to the scientific (and other modern) ideas that Modernism embraces. Whilst Creationism may be part of a pervasive Fundamentalist worldview that opposes far more of the modern world than simply evolution, Creationism (including its latest reincarnation, ID) is that aspect of that worldview that is opposed to evolution. Hrafn42 10:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You may be right about Bryan, but my understanding is that his campaigning against evolution began with opposition to German militarism and alleged WW1 atrocities – the political and religious aspects are intertwined, not so much one rather than the other. In Darwin's early years (1810-1840s) evolution was explicitly a political issue, supported by republicans and opposed by those wanting to uphold the aristocratic / feudal status quo in England. In the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy, "Modernism" means Liberal Christianity and not the modern world – it's an argument between biblical literalism and higher criticism interpreting the bible as a religious text related to the context of the times when it was written. That argument about interpretation continues, as can be seen from the response of various churches to ID. .. dave souza, talk 11:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Hrafn42, I understand the points you make and that DI is self-serving. I also don't disagree with the aspect that it is a conceptual form of creationism; however, I don't agree that it is appropriate to state it as fact in the lead sentence. The NPOV policy requires that, "where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." (bolding added) I think the aspect of ID being deemed not science, religous, and a creationist argument is front and center taking up the majority of the lead. There is no need to inject this POV into the base definition. Morphh 13:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

But WP:NPOV does not require us to give equal validity to pseudoscientific claims: Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Giving_"equal_validity". We also are explicitly directed not to give undue weight to ID's claims (since these are rejected by the vast majority of life scientists, and every neutral assessment of ID): Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. I don't mean to suggest that you are unaware of these facets of the NPOV policy, but I find your post a bit misleading. We are not required to be "fair and balanced" here just because a bunch of vocal wingnuts are screaming that ID is scientific and is not creationism. That said, I agree with you in calling ID a claim up front rather than a variant of creationism. Silly rabbit 13:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring equal validity or undue weight. There is no weight or validity given to the view that it is not creationism. I'm not suggesting that we do. I'm only saying that we don't give total weight and total validity to one side as a matter of fact in the lead sentence, which is what is being suggested by Hrafn42 and Pasado. You're actually confirming my point by bringing up these other aspects of the policy. Morphh 14:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Morphh:

• Why, given that you have admitted that ID is a form of Creationism, are you against stating it in the introductory sentence? This would seem to be like having an article about lions that didn't mention that they are a type of big cat in the introductory sentence. In my opinion, the three crucial points about ID are:

1. It is a form of Creationism
2. It argues that life is too complex to have evolved naturally.
3. It is promoted primarily (and almost exclusively) by the DI.

Without knowing this information, you cannot hope to have even a superficial grasp of ID. Thus it is essential that these points be included in the introductory sentence.

• I would take your continual carping about the "ID is not Creationism" viewpoint, if you could even find one advocate of that viewpoint that was:

1. not entirely self-serving;
2. did not have a reputation for misrepresentation; and
3. had some level of scholarly standing to make the claim.

Hrafn42 15:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

How about the possibility of inserting this statement into the second sentence of the lead, such that it might read as follows: It is a form of creationism,a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.
Footnote 4 might then cite to several appropriate passages from Kitzmiller v. Dover, and footnote 5 might cite to other sources independent of Kitzmiller? ... Kenosis 15:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Does ID actually discuss any aspects of creation or is it just that ID is being used to argue creation? I could go for the second sentence. Perhaps something on the end to also state that it avoids identifying creation. Morphh 16:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I would think this is adequately covered by the existing last phrase of the sentence and by other passages in the article. But it's just a thought at this point. ... Kenosis 16:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the article currently doesn't explicitly state that ID is a form of Creationism until the 'Movement' section. The Judge Jones quote in the introduction says it implicitly, but is not as clear a statement of this as some of the other statements in his Decision, e.g: "The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory."

As it is stealth Creationism, ID makes no explicit mention of, or argument for, creation. Instead it implicitly frames the issue in such a way that it is clear that the intended answer is a supernatural omnipotent Designer, that is indistinguishable from a "Creator." Hrafn42 16:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, correct. The ways in which this issue is confounded by the inherent element of deceipt makes it a bit tough to state correctly and concisely. This is why, if ID is to be classified as a form of "creationism" in the lead, I suggest the editors dicuss it thoroughly and hopefully get it right on the first try. The lead has been far too labor intensive to be messing with it without careful consideration of what might need to be said, where to insert it, and how to state it, along with how to cite it properly. ... Kenosis 17:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The stealth aspect makes this something we have to write carefully to remain neutral. We had the same issue with specifying ID as an argument for the existence of God. We were able to write it as above to remain neutral by stating that it avoids specifying the nature and identiy of the designer. We need to do the same for creation. Here is my try at the sentence - It is a form of creationism,a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature of creation or identity of the designer. Morphh 17:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. I think you may be onto something. How about: It is a form of creationism,a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the identity of the designer or specifying the word "creation" . ... Kenosis 17:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Just as a copyediting exercise, reducing the "form of"s could result in: It is a form of creationism,a modification of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God which avoids specifying the identity of the designer or using the word "creation" . . .. dave souza, talk 18:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Does it go beyond not just using the word? It doesn't really address creation. From my understanding, it more so tries to disprove aspects of evolution and concludes that it must be intelligently designed. It doesn't go into how, why, where, when, who. So is it enough to say that it just doesn't say the word? It would seem more accurate to say ID is an argument for creationism rather then ID is a form of creationism. Morphh 19:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Would it be less controversial to describe ID as Neo-creationism:

Neo-creationism is a movement whose goal is to restate creationism in terms more likely to be well received by the public, policy makers, educators, and the scientific community. It aims to re-frame the debate over the origins of life in non-religious terms and without appeals to scripture. This comes in response to the 1987 ruling by the United States Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard that creationism is an inherently religious concept and that advocating it as correct or accurate in public school curricula violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

This description seems to fit ID quite well (unsurprising, as ID is to date the only widely-promoted form on Neo-creationism). Hrafn42 18:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Neo-creationism may be a better choice though the second sentence is still a better place for it. I would not subsitute it in the first sentence. Morphh 19:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

To change it to neocreationism you'd need a source that is more notable than the Dover trial ruling, since ID is already identified as creationism there, and I don't such a souce exists. Since neocreation is already subset of creationism, it's better to not muddle things and use the more familiar and better supported term in my opinion. Odd nature 20:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Odd nature is right - while neocreationism is an appropriate descriptor, the Dover ruling called it creationist. Neocreationism is a subset of creationism - since ID has been described as both "creationist" and "neocreationist" it makes more sense to use the broader and more common term in the lead. Guettarda 22:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The last proposal as modified by Dave Souza was:

*It is a form of creationism,a modification of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God which avoids specifying the identity of the designer or using the word "creation" . .

Is this the appropriate language? Thoughts? As well, we still need to discuss citations of course. ... Kenosis 22:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I made a comment above to the sentence that hasn't really been discussed. I doesn't seem to me that stating that it doesn't use the word "creation" is enough. The idea seems incomplete to me. Morphh 2:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I had a feeling this issue might be opening a proverbial can of worms. Perhaps this would best be comprised of a paragraph a bit later in the article summarizing Kitzmiller and the many commentators who've described ID in ways that amount to calling it "stealth creationism"? Such as in the "Overview" section? ... Kenosis 02:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

<unindent>I don't think that the Dave/Morphh proposal works very well, purely as a matter of language. As it stands, it seems (to me, at least) to say that creationism is "a modification of the ... teleological argument", which isn't the case. There are two seperate propositions that this sentence asserts: (a) ID is a form of creationism, (b) ID is a version of the teleological argument; I don't see how these can be combined in one sentence, and I don't think that "It is a form of creationism and a modification of the teleological argument" would be acceptable. As I see it, this comes back to our perennial problem with the definition of ID. The statement "ID is a version of the teleological argument" depends on our defining ID as a claim/assertion/proposition, or whatever word we choose to be least contentious. If, however, we're moving towards a definition of ID as a form of creationism, then this isn't appropriate. Creationism isn't an argument (or a claim, or an assertion) - it's an ideology, or a viewpoint, or a Weltanschauung, or something of the sort. Creationists (and ID proponents) may (and do) _use_ the teleological argument, but, if ID is defined as creationism, it becomes impossible to describe it _as_ the teleological argument. If we're going to define ID as creationism (which, naturally, I support), then we should say this up-front, and make it clear that "teleological argument" is a characterization of the DI statment. I would support something along the lines of:

Intelligent design is a form of creationism, based on the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is a modern form of the teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.

But this goes even further than Pasado's proposed version, and is unlikely to be acceptable to everyone... Tevildo 22:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of reliable source that classify it as intelligent design creationism and the like, though I don't have the time to collect any right now. Adequately collected so they're ready to use, I wouldn't object to this statement. ... Kenosis 22:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

When you realize that Intelligent design is a variant of creationism the fog lifts and you can see that the "teleological argument" trappings are there to help hide this fact. And since creationism is not an argument for the existence of God I propose dropping the sentence about "teleological arguments". It is DI smoke and mirrors to make ID seem like something new.

I also think "variant of creationism" is more accurate than "form of creationism". "Form" is used in the sidebar for the various forms of creationism, like "old earth", "new earth", etc.Pasado 03:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Pasado, I have to disagree. I think linking ID to the teleological argument shows that it isn't anything new, and that at its heart, it's an attempt to rehash tired old arguments for the existence of god, dressing them up as science. I would support ornis 04:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

ConfuciusOrnis, you are right. Creationism could be used as an argument for the existence of God. And since ID is a variant of creationism it too could be used an argument for the existence of God. But I think this is secondary to the root fact that ID is a variant of creationism. I would support expressing these thoughts along the lines of:

Intelligent design is creationism with the additional claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.

Although we need to find a better word that "claim". It doesn't quite sound right. Any thoughts?Pasado 04:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

As the cites from Kitzmiller v. Dover in the section immediately below indicate, IMO, any reference to "creationism" in the WP article lead needs to be closely accompanied by a more specific explanation than is afforded by a mere assertion that ID is a "form", "variant", "descendant", "type", or whatever single word might be chosen, of "creationism". The real issue is already explained in the "overview" section, that the words "creation", "creationist" and "creationism" were replaced with "design", "designed", and "intelligent design" in Of Pandas and People, which happened to be the textbook that Dover high school students were intended by the Board of Education to be guided to investigate as an alternative to evolution as it was about to be taught to them in their standard biology class. IMO, there's little or no value added to this article by merely mentioning the word "creationist" or "creationism" in the lead, at least as has been proposed thus far. And part of the reason for this is the "stealth creationism" aspect of ID. Assisting the reader in identifying where exactly the "stealth" lies is something the article already does, a stragegy perhaps more accurately identified as neo-creationism than it would be called simply a form of creationism. So I really see this debate as being about whether the word "creationism" should be mentioned as a class to which ID belongs right in the article lead, how it should be fit into an already crowded lead, and how to properly state this obvious fact in such a way that it is useful to the reader. As we've seen, well, it sort of does belong to the class of ideas called "creationism", and it sort of doesn't, so the "devil" here is in the details. Thus, I'd want to see more evidence of awareness of the need for attention to detail as to this issue among the participants as versus a mere agreement among participants that the word "creationism" should automatically be attached to ID in the lead without a clearer and more detailed explanation than has been proposed thus far in the discussion. ... Kenosis 04:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The beginning paragraph should state the simple truth about this subject. The 20 KITZMILLER quotes you generously researched all point to the simple truth that ID is creationism with new clothes. As you say, the details of the intrigue and drama surrounding how this came to be are adequately covered in the article and cites. But the simple fact that ID is a variant of creationism needs to be covered up front. Not to do so is to do a disservice the reader. I propose the lead paragraph start with the following wording:

Intelligent design is creationism with the additional claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.

P.S. I searched for the term "neo-creationism" in the Forrest paper and in the KITZMILLER ruling and found no hits.Pasado 06:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I oppose this suggested lead. It defines ID as a prominent conclusion (discussed in Kitzmiller) as a matter of fact and relegates the technical definition to an "additional claim". ID doesn't go into how, why, where, when, or who as far as I know. As you state, it is "stealth". Therefore, it is only defined as creationism as a matter of opinion (yes a neutral court ruled opinion). However, I don't think we should state this as fact just because we believe the source to be neutral or "truth". Proponents disagree that it is creationism (self serving or not) and ID doesn't define common normal elements of creation. IMO there is validity in the thought that ID itself is not a form of creation but a means to argue it. Therefor, I can not support a lead that states creationism as fact without stating that either Kitzmiller states it and / or ID does not contain such common elements. However, I'm also with Kenosis in that I'm not convinced that it need be covered in more detail in the lead. Kitzmiller and the Judge Jones quote is present (which states this) and the article goes on to discuss the matter in detail. The statement is proper in this context and the lead summarizes it nicely. Morphh 12:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

"ID doesn't go into how, why, where, when, or who as far as I know." This is in fact the point. By refusing to be tied down on "how" IDers are implicitly defining their 'Designer' as omnipotent. By refusing "why," ineffable. By refusing "where" and "when," omnipresent. By refusing "who," undetectable. This complete lack of testible specifics is one of the reasons that it is outside science. The fact that all of these evasions lead back to widely known attributes of the Abrahamic God is what makes it stealth Creationism.Hrafn42 13:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

To quote Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged — "You who are worshippers of the zero–you have never discovered that achieving life is not the equivalent of avoiding death. Joy is not 'the absence of pain,' intelligence is not 'the absence of stupidity,' light is not 'the absence of darkness,' an entity is not 'the absence of a nonentity.' Building is not done by abstaining from demolition; centuries of sitting and waiting in such abstinence will not raise one single girder for you to abstain from demolishing–and now you can no longer say to me, the builder: 'Produce, and feed us in exchange for our not destroying your production.' I am answering in the name of all your victims: Perish with and in your own void. Existence is not a negation of negatives." Morphh 19:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there an argument, let alone substantiation for an argument in that lengthy diatribe of assertions? I don't think so. And the Abrahamic God is most certainly defined be an absense of limitations. Hrafn42 02:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The point was to point out the diatribe of assertions being used as a method of absence or "lack of" for defining that which is not stated. An example being your claim that the Abrahamic God is the absense of limitations. The very nature of defining said God applies limitations - that which is defined as all that is Good and the paridise of heaven is limited by constraints of Evil, paths for forgiveness, or a hell for those who he "saves". Morphh 13:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"that which is defined to be all that is Good" is defined so ineffably as to include incitement to commit rape, murder, infanticide and genocide as well as permission to keep slaves and barbaric punishments as "all that is Good," and thus is meaningless from any determinative viewpoint. "God is good, and God did it so it must be good" is circular reasoning and no genuine limitation at all. And given that we can only speculate about the workings of heaven, they are likewise not a genuine limitation. Hrafn42 13:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we've gone off topic. :-) Morphh 14:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

(ri) Did Rand ever write anything meaningful? I shrug. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Morphh wishes to return to the topic. To summarise:

1. By refusing to be tied down on "how, why, where, when, or who," IDers implicitly define a 'designer' who is omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable, i.e. the Abrahamic God.
2. Morphh asserts that you cannot define something by an absence of features, a logically vacuous assertion that he can only back up by a muddled Randian diatribe, but not with any genuine limitations on the Abrahamic God.

So Morphh, if this omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable designer isn't the Abrahamic God, then who is (s)he?Hrafn42 14:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Does ID state the designer is omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable? That's right.. it is implicit by its non-definition. And we should assert this as fact... Ok.. Nope don't think so. The Rand quote was an attempt at humor to address the point - I need not back up anything. I think I'm going to wait for some others to comment a little further as this back and forth is not getting us anywhere. Morphh 15:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"Does ID state the designer is omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable?" Of course not! The first rule of ID is don't talk about the designer! Only talk about fallacious claims about what evolution cannot do, with the clear implication that anything, anything, anything that evolution purportedly couldn't do, the designer did. Can do anything=omnipotent. Hrafn42 15:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sick of all this. We have three reputable sources (the Kitzmiller descision, Ronald Numbers and Barbara Forrest) that ID is Creationism. We have been presented with no reputable sources to the contrary, just a bunch of shoddy OR and hearsay. Therefore I would suggest that, unless and until evidence from reputable sources is presented that ID is not in fact Creationism, that ID should be prominantly described as Creationism in the article. Hrafn42 15:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Quick Google search:

• Intelligent Design is not Creationism, By: Stephen C Meyer, The Daily Telegraph (London), February 9, 2006
• Intelligent Design and Creationism Just Aren't the Same By: John G. West, Research News and Opportunities in Science and Theology, December 1, 2002
• FAQ: Is intelligent design just creationism (or creationism "in disguise")?
• "Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation.", William Dembski, No Free Lunch pg. 314

To your point above, I did a quick search. I'm just making the point that the issue is disputed. This creates an NPOV issue when you state it as fact. Morphh 16:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's take a look at Morphh's 'reliable sources':

• Stephen C Meyer: faux-paleontologist, DI VP, and co-author of Intelligent Design in Public School Science Curriculum: A Legal Guidebook
• John G. West: faux-legal expert, DI Senior Fellow
• William Dembski: faux-Information Theorist(No Free Lunch was described by the co-inventor of the No Free Lunch Theorems as "written in jello"), producer of fart-videos, DI Senior Fellow

None of the these individuals have a reputation for honesty or good scholarship. All of them have a reputation for making unfounded claims outside their fields of expertise. None of the sources cited are scholarly. Additionally, all are members of the DI, so have a vested interest in denying that ID is Creationism.

Additionally, I would like to introduce the following quote from Phillip Johnson as an 'admission against interest' (i.e. the opposite of a self-serving statement, and thus a statement with considerable evidential value):

My colleagues and I speak of "theistic realism" -- or sometimes, "mere creation" --as the defining concept of our movement. This means that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology. We avoid the tangled arguments about how or whether to reconcile the Biblical account with the present state of scientific knowledge, because we think these issues can be much more constructively engaged when we have a scientific picture that is not distorted by naturalistic prejudice. If life is not simply matter evolving by natural selection, but is something that had to be designed by a creator who is real, then the nature of that creator, and the possibility of revelation, will become a matter of widespread interest among thoughtful people who are currently being taught that evolutionary science has show God to be a product of the human imagination.

Hrafn42 17:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me respond to West's baseless assertions:

1. "'Intelligent Design Creationism' is a pejorative term" -- like "Darwinists" isn't? Talk about pot calling the kettle black.
2. Just like Creation Science, intelligent design claims to be based on science, not sacred texts.
3. Creationists know that intelligent design theory is creationism -- that's why there are so many YECs in the ID movement.
4. Unlike the Theory of Evolution, which has a large following both from theists and atheists, design theory is promoted almost exclusively by conservative Christians.
5. Fair-minded critics recognize the significant historical and ideological overlap between intelligent design and creationism.

Hrafn42 17:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, one of Morphh's own sources, William Dembski, is the author of a book entitled Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design-- a very odd title if "Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation." Hrafn42 17:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Morphh, there is such a large amount of substantial documentation that intelligent design is a form of creationism that no reasonable person could deny it. Anyone who denies it obviously has a serious problem with facing reality. Statements that intelligent design is not creationism are even more suspect because the entire DI strategy relies on trying to position their movement as not creationism to avoid legal restrictions; in other words, to attempt to break the law.--Filll 17:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Further, if ID is not Creationism, then why did numerous ID proponents (including two of Morphh's sources, William Demsbki and Stephen C Meyer) present a conference entitled Mere Creation: Scholars United Under Intelligent Design? Hrafn42 18:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Calm down.. I just did a 2 sec goggle search for sources. Not like I research it. It was to show there is debate about the issue. We had the same issue with stating "ID is an argument for the existence of God" as fact (using the same sources you're presenting). After several article locks and over a month of debating, we came to a compromise. ID is not science but we do not state it as fact as DI argues that it is a scientific theory. We present both sides with the argument that it has been found by the scientific community to not be science or that it is God (but that it does not specify) or in this case that it is a form of creationism. We can not dismiss DI as unreliable and therefor not an appropriate source for support or opposition. Heck.. they are ID in many ways. Their POV is of primary importance to this article. Since there is dispute, both should be present and neither should be presented as "truth". As it is worded now, I oppose the addition but I'm not dismissing it and I'm willing to come to some compromise with adding it. Thoughts on compromise: Not in the first sentence, Attributed the statement to those making it and the point that some disagree or why they disagree. While I personally think it is a argument for creation rather than a form of creation, so long as we attribute it and mention that it is disputed.. I could come to support the addition. Morphh 19:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Compromise is good...but can we start a new section? This one is really long. BTW, I know the Rand quote was meant as humour, but is so often virtually deified that I've become hyper-critical of anything she's written. I see her writings as a lot of words with little substance. Oh well....back to the topic... &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"We can not dismiss DI as unreliable and therefor not an appropriate source for support or opposition." Why not, when we have: (1)a strong motive for DI dishonesty; and (2) clear evidence of DI dishonesty (in that they say both that ID is and is not "creation"). Such blatant self-contradiction surely renders their testimony worthless, except perhaps as evidence of their duplicitousness.

"Their POV is of primary importance to this article." Which of their points of view? That ID isn't Creationism, or that it is "Mere Creation"? Hrafn42 02:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Two different terms there. Again this is likely the application of ID to their beliefs. They don't think ID is creationism but they use ID to argue for creation. It is all dependent on the context and we can't infer one from the other IMO. Morphh 13:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

William Demsbki and Stephen C Meyer were to testify at Kitzmiller but they withdrew from the case. It they had testified they would have been exposed to cross examination. This action weakens their creditability in my mind.Pasado 03:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant speculation. Morphh 13:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Mere Creation

Morphh has suggested that both (all?) sides should be presented. Taking him at his word, I would like to suggest the following section, entitled 'Mere Creation':

Although proponents of intelligent design frequently deny that it is Creationism or has a religious foundation, they also frequently discuss intelligent design in explicitly religious, and even Creationist, terms. Phillip Johnson has called "Mere Creation" the "defining concept of our movement," and this concept has made its way into book (Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design by William Dembski) and conference (Mere Creation: Scholars United Under Intelligent Design, a conference at which several prominent intelligent design advocates, including Stephen C. Meyer, William A. Dembski, Michael J. Behe and Phillip Johnson, presented) titles on the subject. Dembski has described intelligent design as "just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory."

Hrafn42 03:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sections in this article should not be created for any of the books on this subject matter, as each already has its own article in WP. And the article on Mere_Creation is itself a stub. As to the article on intelligent design, all sides already are presented in the article. The only relevant question in the discussion above is whether to state in the article lead that intelligent design belongs to the class of things called "creationism", or whether, given the complexities and inherent deceptiveness of ID, the existing explanations in the article are sufficient to adequately inform the reader.

If anything requires a section, it seems to me that the issue of whether ID is a form of creationism may require one, in light of the complexities already discussed above. There already is a section on defining ID as science, so I don't see any reason to rule out a brief section summarizing the relationship of ID to the class of beliefs, philosophies and advocacy positions that, according to the WP:reliable sources, are reasonably termed "creationism". ... Kenosis 14:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That would make sense. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Locations in Kitzmiller v. Dover of references to Intelligent design as a form of creationism

Here are citations from Kitzmiller v. Dover that refer to ID as a form of creationism, or explain in some relevant way how it is a form of creationism, with page numbers. ... Kenosis 22:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

p18 An Objective Observer Would Know that ID and Teaching About “Gaps” and “Problems” in Evolutionary Theory are Creationist, Religious Strategies that Evolved from Earlier Forms of Creationism

p31-32 A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism. Child Evangelism, 386 F.3d at 531 (citations omitted); Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 624-25. The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism. What is likely the strongest evidence supporting the finding of ID’s creationist nature is the history and historical pedigree of the book to which students in Dover’s ninth grade biology class are referred, Pandas. Pandas is published by an organization called FTE, as noted, whose articles of incorporation and filings with the Internal Revenue Service describe it as a religious, Christian organization. (P-461; P-28; P-566; P-633; p32 Buell Dep. 1:13, July 8, 2005). Pandas was written by Dean Kenyon and Percival Davis, both acknowledged creationists, and Nancy Pearcey, a Young Earth Creationist, contributed to the work. (10:102-08 (Forrest)).

p32 As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court’s decision in Edwards, which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE’s argument that by merely disregarding the words “creation” and “creationism,” FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas. In early pre- Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term “creation” was defined as “various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features

p33 intact – fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc,” the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions. (P- 560 at 210; P-1 at 2-13; P-562 at 2-14, P-652 at 2-15; P-6 at 99-100; P-11 at 99- 100; P-856.2.). This definition was described by many witnesses for both parties, notably including defense experts Minnich and Fuller, as “special creation” of kinds of animals, an inherently religious and creationist concept. (28:85-86 (Fuller); Minnich Dep. at 34, May 26, 2005; Trial Tr. vol. 1, Miller Test., 141-42, Sept. 26, 2005; 9:10 (Haught); Trial Tr. vol. 33, Bonsell Test., 54-56, Oct. 31, 2005). Professor Behe’s assertion that this passage was merely a description of appearances in the fossil record is illogical and defies the weight of the evidence that the passage is a conclusion about how life began based upon an interpretation of the fossil record, which is reinforced by the content of drafts of Pandas. The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from “creation” to “intelligent design” occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court’s important Edwards decision. This compelling evidence strongly supports Plaintiffs’ assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled. Importantly, the objective observer, whether adult or child, would conclude from the fact that Pandas posits a master intellect that the intelligent designer is God. Further evidence in support of the conclusion that a reasonable observer,

p34 adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism concerns the fact that ID uses the same, or exceedingly similar arguments as were posited in support of creationism. One significant difference is that the words “God,” “creationism,” and “Genesis” have been systematically purged from ID explanations, and replaced by an unnamed “designer.” Dr. Forrest testified and sponsored exhibits showing six arguments common to creationists. (10:140-48 (Forrest); P-856.5-856.10). Demonstrative charts introduced through Dr. Forrest show parallel arguments relating to the rejection of naturalism, evolution’s threat to culture and society, “abrupt appearance” implying divine creation, the exploitation of the same alleged gaps in the fossil record, the alleged inability of science to explain complex biological information like DNA, as well as the theme that proponents of each version of creationism merely aim to teach a scientific alternative to evolution to show its “strengths and weaknesses,” and to alert students to a supposed “controversy” in the scientific community. (10:140-48 (Forrest)). In addition, creationists made the same argument that the complexity of the bacterial flagellum supported creationism as Professors Behe and Minnich now make for ID. (P-853; P-845; 37:155-56 (Minnich)). The IDM openly welcomes adherents to creationism into its “Big Tent,” urging them to postpone biblical disputes like the age of the

p35 earth. (11:3-15 (Forrest); P-429). Moreover and as previously stated, there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism. (Fuller Dep. at 67, June 21, 2005) (indicated that ID is a modern view of creationism). Although contrary to Fuller, defense experts Professors Behe and Minnich testified that ID is not creationism, their testimony was primarily by way of bare assertion and it failed to directly rebut the creationist history of Pandas or other evidence presented by Plaintiffs showing the commonality between creationism and ID. The sole argument Defendants made to distinguish creationism from ID was their assertion that the term “creationism” applies only to arguments based on the Book of Genesis, a young earth, and a catastrophic Noaich flood; however, substantial evidence established that this is only one form of creationism, including the chart that was distributed to the Board Curriculum Committee, as will be described below. (P-149 at 2; 10:129-32 (Forrest); P-555 at 22-24). Having thus provided the social and historical context in which the ID Policy arose of which a reasonable observer, either adult or child would be aware, we will now focus on what the objective student alone would know. We will accordingly determine whether an objective student would view the disclaimer read to the ninth grade biology class as an official endorsement of religion.

p42 In other words, the disclaimer relies upon the very same “contrived dualism” that the court in McLean recognized to be a creationist tactic that has “no scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose.” McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1266.6 6 The McLean court explained that: The approach to teaching ‘creation science’ and ‘evolution science’ . . . is identical to the two-model approach espoused by the Institute for Creation Research and is taken almost verbatim from ICR writings. It is an extension of Fundamentalists’ view that one must either accept the literal interpretation of Genesis or else believe in the godless system of evolution. The two model approach of creationists is simply a contrived dualism which has no scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose. It assumes only two explanations for the origins of life and existence of man, plants and animals: it was either the work of a creator or it was not. Application of these two models, according to creationists, and the defendants, dictates that all scientific evidence which fails to support the theory of evolution is necessarily scientific evidence in support of creationism and is, therefore, creation science ‘evidence’ 529 F. Supp. at 1266 (footnote omitted)(emphasis added).

p43 The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.

p44 Whether a student accepts the Board’s invitation to explore Pandas, and reads a creationist text, or follows the Board’s other suggestion and discusses “Origins of Life” with family members, that objective student can reasonably infer that the District’s favored view is a religious one, and that the District is accordingly sponsoring a form of religion.

p49 In summary, the disclaimer singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere.

p56 An objective adult member of the Dover community would also be presumed to know that ID and teaching about supposed gaps and problems in evolutionary theory are creationist religious strategies that evolved from earlier forms of creationism, as we previously detailed.

p69-70 Under the heading "Whether ID is science", the decision quotes the NAS as follows: Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science. These claims subordinate observed data to statements based on authority, revelation, or

70 religious belief. Documentation offered in support of these claims is typically limited to the special publications of their advocates. These publications do not offer hypotheses subject to change in light of new data, new interpretations, or demonstration of error. This contrasts with science, where any hypothesis or theory always remains subject to the possibility of rejection or modification in the light of new knowledge.

p71 ID is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed. (5:41 (Pennock)). This argument is not brought to this Court anew, and in fact, the same argument, termed “contrived dualism” in McLean, was employed by creationists in the 1980's to support “creation science.” The court in McLean noted the “fallacious pedagogy of the two model approach” and that “n efforts to establish ‘evidence’ in support of creation science, the defendants relied upon the same false premise as the two model approach . . . all evidence which criticized evolutionary theory was proof in support of creation science.” McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1267, 1269. We do not find this false dichotomy any more availing to justify ID today than it was to justify creation science two decades ago.

p91 ID is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed. (5:41 (Pennock)). This argument is not brought to this Court anew, and in fact, the same argument, termed “contrived dualism” in McLean, was employed by creationists in the 1980's to support “creation science.” The court in McLean noted the “fallacious pedagogy of the two model approach” and that “n efforts to establish ‘evidence’ in support of creation science, the defendants relied upon the same false premise as the two model approach . . . all evidence which criticized evolutionary theory was proof in support of creation science.” McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1267, 1269. We do not find this false dichotomy any more availing to justify ID today than it was to justify creation science two decades ago.

p107 Accordingly, as accurately submitted by Plaintiffs, we find that the Board Curriculum Committee knew as early as June 2004 that ID was widely considered by numerous observers to be a form of creationism.

p112 There is no evidence that the Board heeded even one iota of the Solicitor’s detailed and prudent warning. We also find the email to be persuasive, additional evidence that the Board knew that ID is considered a form of creationism.

p114 The testimony at trial stunningly revealed that Buckingham and Bonsell tried to hide the source of the donations because it showed, at the very least, the extraordinary measures taken to ensure that students received a creationist alternative to Darwin’s theory of evolution.

p120 Finally, Spahr warned the full Board that ID amounted to creationism and could not be taught legally. (24:102 (Nilsen); 35:14-15 (Baksa)).

p131 As exhaustively detailed herein, the thought leaders on the Board made it their considered purpose to inject some form of creationism into the science classrooms, and by the dint of their personalities and persistence they were able to pull the majority of the Board along in their collective wake.

p136 ... we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.

22:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed sentence

"In the same book, he also points out that natural selection is in many ways the opposite of chance. Dembski's specified complexity may eliminate chance, perhaps, but it says nothing about natural selection." Is this really POV? What do you think?--Filll 15:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the sentence, not so much because it may be POV, but because it appears to be OR, is poorly phrased, and is getting somewhat tangential (in that criticism of CS is better situated in the main article on that). Hrafn42 16:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Two questions. 1. In what sense is this comment a POV? Natural selection is not equivalent to chance. Anyone equating the two does not understand natural selection. 2. What does OR mean? It is not in the Misplaced Pages Edit summary legend ].

I'm prepared to concede that this comment is misplaced and not well phrased, but if that's the case, then why not suggest better phrasing and move it rather than dismissing it out of hand? Kalense 13:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

OR means Original Research (see no original research policy) and I went ahead and added it to the Edit summary legend. Morphh 13:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

UK gov stance is ID...should not be taught as science.

From, http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page12021.asp or The register spin, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/25/id_not_science/

"The Government is clear that creationism and intelligent design are not part of the science National Curriculum programmes of study and should not be taught as science."

Well at least the UK is a lot clearer !.Ttiotsw 12:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Good find!--NeoNerd 12:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

An interesting re-phrasing of the statement made in December as currently included in Intelligent design#International status of intelligent design. The Qualifications and Curriculum Authority is taking its time getting its guidance together! Note that this applies to England and Wales, not Scotland and NI though approx zero chance of ID here, I'd hope. .. dave souza, talk 12:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow! http://intelligentdesignr.org.uk/ has all the answers! .. dave souza, talk 12:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

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