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Revision as of 21:28, 2 July 2007

It has been proposed below that United States and state terrorism be renamed and moved to Allegations of state terrorism by the United States.

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Opposing views

Controversial Misplaced Pages articles usually have a section with opposing views. So I am working on one. Suggestions welcome.

• One reason for the support, by the US and other Western nations, for certain right-wing dictatorships is that it is rare for democracy to exist in nations with low economic development. In these nations the population often lack literacy, education, and are otherwise too poor to be be able to fully participate in a democratic process. Thus, supporting a dictatorship that promotes economic growth have often been seen as the best option available, anticipating that this will eventually lead to democratization. Right-wing dictatorships in nations such as Portugal, Spain, Greece, Turkey, Chile, Brazil, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, and Indonesia eventually become democracies. However, this view has been challenged recently by arguing that research shows that poor democracies perform better, including also on economic growth if excluding East Asia, than poor dictatorships.

• Problem with this is that its a response for support of right-wing dicatorships, its not a response for support of State Terrorism. Support can mean many things. I think the standard answer given by the US is simply to deny that is occured, or that it was acting in self defense, as it claimed in the case of the US vs. Nic.Giovanni33 22:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• As noted in the source, this is one of the reasons. Most of the sources in the article do not mention "state terrorism", so if they are allowed, then this should as well.Ultramarine 22:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The source is irrelevant because it does not present opposing viewpoints to the events in question. Unless it directly addresses the events in question, it has no place on this page. Stone put to sky 10:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

As per NPOV all views should be presented, including reasons for, criticisms etc. This is not a simple list article.Ultramarine 10:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all views about US State terrorism. Saying the US supports right-wing goverments, and explaining why, does NOT explain why the US committed acts of State terrorism, per se. The source must state that support of conservative governments extends to support of terrorism. If you have a source that rationalizes that, then fine.Giovanni33 05:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, then we must delete all the accusations that do not mention "state terrorism" That is, most of them.Ultramarine 09:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Its not that simple. Back ground info related to the incidents in question (in which a source lists as an exmaple of US terrorism), are perfectly fine to verify and add details about the facts in question. Those don't get deleted, even if they don't mention state terrorism. Likewise, other statments that are back up with references, provided those statments don't allege something not in the source. An example would be the plans for terrorism that the US has addmitted to.Giovanni33 21:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

In practice the article makes an OR synthesis and claims that numerous things are state terrorism which has not been stated in any source.Misplaced Pages:POV forking prohibits articles only having arguments from one side. If you want to list US support for dictatorships as evidence for state terrorism, then NPOV also requires explaining this support.Ultramarine 21:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• Supporters of the United States point out the United States rarely have used violence against other democracies. When the United States was involved in coups against democratic government, part of the explanation was the perception, correct or not, that these states were turning into Communist dictatorships. Also important was the role of rarely transparent United States government agencies, who sometimes mislead or did not fully imlement the decisions of elected civilian leaders.Weart, Spencer R. (1998). Never at War. Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-07017-9.p. 221-224, 314.

Saying, "supporters of the United States," is a loaded term. Supporters of what? The people? The policies? Which policies? Do you mean supporters of US terrorism, or the actions that are alleged and accused of being state terrorism? The claims are also very dubious. What does "rarely" mean? The historical record is one of the US being consistently against democratic movements, and supporting elites, big bussiness, which more often than not, means supporting dictatorships. Even overthrowing democracies and installing dictatorships. But, again, even if this dubious claim were true, what does it have to do with the accusations of State terrorism by the US? In fact, I think you mischaracterize the source. I know of this book, and its thesis is simply the claim that democratic states have less of a tendency to go to WAR with each other. That is, states going to war with other states--not all violence, and nothing about US state terrorism.Giovanni33 05:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is clearly nonsense, because all of these victims of U.S. aggression were fully functioning democracies at the time of their targeting by the U.S. (and some of them still are): Paraguay, Uruguay, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Indonesia, Burma, Iran, Angola, the Congo, Argentina, Peru, Guatemala, and most recently the Palestinian Territories (under Hamas) and Lebanon. Stone put to sky 09:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I have given sources, you not. The support for a few coups already discussed. Helping an elected democratic government against rebels is not violence against this government.Ultramarine 09:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Look, this is the talk page. I have just stated, as openly and clearly as i can, that i can demonstrably prove that the nations i just mentioned had fully functioning democracies before they attracted the wrath of the U.S. military/state department/cia/government. Now, if you would like to debate whether or not it is useful for us to have a bunch of lies in the article, then feel free. For my part, i can guarantee that the "source" you've "provided" is nothing more than a bunch of claptrap masquerading as scholarship, and i've already stated it's an easy enough thing to prove.

This being the talk-page, though, i don't need to prove it -- and if you were editing in good faith WP:AGF then, instead of falling back on claims that you have "sources", you'd instead engage me in a discussion about how to better improve your proposals to the page.

It is conspicuous, however, that you are not. You are instead trying to bully us to include a bunch of irrelevant claptrap because "you have sources", and i "don't". That's clearly not good faith, and your material is just as clearly totally irrelevant to what's being posted, here. Stone put to sky 10:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I will repeat for clarity: I have given sources, you not. Please read W:V, W:NOR, and WP:RS, so you can see for yourself the importance of giving sources.Ultramarine 10:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I will repeat for clarity:

Citing sources is not enough. The material must be relevant to the page. Yours is not. Stone put to sky 10:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Is and you have presented no reason for not being so.Ultramarine 10:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, now we are getting somewhere.

Ultramarine, please explain to me how including categorical lies about the U.S's behavior -- lies which are easily disproven by a quick search of Misplaced Pages -- is relevant to a page that is supposed to deal in facts? Stone put to sky 10:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess you are trying to make a point about something but what is unclear. Regardless, Misplaced Pages cannot be cited in Misplaced Pages.Ultramarine 10:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• Chomsky claims that the United States is a leading terrorist nation. However, actual empericial studies have found that democracies, including the United States, have killed much fewer civilians than dictatorships.No Lessons Learned from the Holocaust?, Barbara Harff, 2003. Media may falsely give the impression that Chomsky's claim is correct. Studies have found that New York Times coverage of worldwide human rights violations is biased, predominantly focusing on the human rights violations in nations where there is clear U.S. involvement, while having relatively little coverage of the human rights violations in other nations. For example, the bloodiest war in recent time, involving eight nations and killing millions of civilians, was the Second Congo War, which was almost completely ignored by the media. Finally, those nations with military alliances with the US can spend less on the military since they can count on US protection. This may give a false impression that the US is less peaceful than those nations.

• This one doesnt work logically. Its a non-sequitur because it confuses the issue of democracies use of violence relative to non-democracies with the claims of US terrorism. They have nothing to do with each other. The claim is of US terrorism. While it may be true that democracies have killed fewer civllians than non-democracies, so what? It does nothing to the claim. The claim of democracies vs. non-democracies may not even be true in the case of the U.S, either, despite it being a democracy (since the studies talk about all democracies vs. non-democracies overall). And, even if it were true, it amounts to saying, "other countries committ terrorism also, and we do it less." That is not a valid argument either, as it forms a logical fallacy of two wrongs make a right.Giovanni33 22:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• No, you can see how many the US have killed and its is less than many of the dictatorships of the twentieth century. Regarding the supposed logical fallacy, Chomsky obviously thinks that two wrongs is worse than one, so we can make the same argument in the opposing views section.Ultramarine 22:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• But, this article does not list as an argument how many are killed and uses the number killed to make a qualitative argument regarding the substance or nature of the action. Its terrorism if one person dies or thousands. Therefore, there is no counter point being made regarding citing numbers that the US killed vs. those killed by other States (not to mention that those killed, such as by war, etc, and those killed by terrorism are not the same.) has nothing to do with the accusations of state terrorism by the US. Its a non-sequitur.Giovanni33 22:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, more nonsense; these so-called "empirical studies" are all fatally flawed, insofar as they tend to paint huge, neo-industrial nations like China and the USSR as responsible to the decisions of a single ruler who coordinated all atrocities that occurred during their stewardship -- while at the same time refusing to include atrocities in which the U.S. is widely acknowledged to have had a fundamental role. If we include, for instance, the deaths of all the people in the Great Leap Forward as the sole and singular responsibility of Mao and the CCCP, then we should clearly also include the slaughter of millions of Burmese, Kampucheans and Indonesians that took place after U.S. orchestrated coups.

Lacking, however, a suitably objective standard by which to measure responsibility, these calculations inevitably fall prey to the selective awareness of the people authoring them. They are unsuitable as wikipedia sources.

Finally, unless you believe that "some terrorism is worse than other terrorism, depending on how many you kill", then this argument is totally illogical. By making it, you (and your sources) are not denying that the U.S. has committed State Terrorism, but rather that when the U.S. does it it's not so bad as when other people do (because in the long-run the U.S. tends to kill fewer people).Stone put to sky 09:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

These academic empirical studies certainly attempt to decide which state is responsible. Thus, verifiable as defined in Misplaced Pages. You on the other hand, give no sources for your claims. Again, Chomsky argues that quantity matters, so we can make the same argument in the opposing views section.Ultramarine 09:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, beside the fact that "attempting to define" and actually "defining" are two completely different things, the the selection remains irrelevant to the article. It is not arguing that "State Terrorism by the United States" didn't occur, but rather that it is less "terrorist" in nature because it was done by the United States. Again: that's not an issue for this page, because this is, currently, a simple enumeration of the terrorist acts for which the U.S. bears some (or all) responsibility. Stone put to sky 10:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want to dispute these studies, publish in academic literature, Misplaced Pages is not the place. This page is an OR collection of links, most of which do not mention terrorism or "state terrorism". Again, Chomsky argues that quantity matters, so we can make the same argument in the opposing views section.Ultramarine 10:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I will repeat for clarity:

Citing sources is not enough. The material must be relevant to the page. Yours is not. Stone put to sky 10:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Is and you have presented no reason for not being so.Ultramarine 10:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

As I said, it does not logically follow from the articles subject. I notice you like to advance the democratic peace theory and stick it in many article where its not related to the subject matter under discussion. The point is not that one agrees or not with the data and studies, the point is that its not relevant here. No where in this article does the issue of "democracies" vs. non-democracies as it pertains to violence, even come up. Its not an issue this article is interested in. So your putting in this democratic peace theory that alleges that so-called democracies are more peaceful than non-democracies is not relevant. Its a non-sequitur when you link to Chomsky's claims that the US committed acts of state terrorism. Pointing to other states that did it too, or even worse, and that there is a correlation between this alleged fact and the extent of the democratic nature of the state is point to make in perhaps articles that deal with this subject. This article does not.Giovanni33 05:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

As stated before, the source shows the deaths caused by the US alone, not only democracies in general, which is what I am refering to. The US may have been responsible for killing hundreds of thousands civilians, while dictatorships have killed tens of millions. It is Chomsky who argues that quantity matters, so we can make the same argument in the opposing views section.Ultramarine 09:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• That US soldiers have committed war crimes such as rapes and killing POWs is a fact. However, such acts are not approved or supported by the US government or the US military. They are not the policy of the US government. The same applies even more to acts committed by to foreign groups supported but outside direct US control. Despite this, the US is often blamed for every single human rights violations in nations or by groups they have in some way supported, regardless of if this was approved of by the foreign leaderships or not, and regardless of if the US have tried to use its influence to stop this or not. For example, the US is often blamed for all the human rights violations during the long civil war in Guatemala, despite that the US for long periods cut of its military aid just because such violations, helped stop a coup in 1993, and made efforts to improve the conduct of the security services.

This one has more weight, however international law already has a lot to say on the subject. The odd rape of a woman or murder of a civilian is one thing; rape camps and torture chambers are an entirely different thing. Abu Ghraib was clearly not the work of "a few bad apples", but rather a policy decision endorsed by the highest levels of the U.S. leadership. That makes it State Terrorism.

Further, if one follows this rhetoric out to its natural conclusion then it is as equally applicable to all States everywhere as it is to the United States alone. In other words, it would be just as easy to use this argument for the Yugoslavian government under Milosevic as it would be to use it for the United States; many of the units in the Yugoslav army undertook their atrocities in direct response to atrocities undertaken by the enemy, which they had witnessed in the field. Their actions were not generally policy, but tactical-level command decisions. Nevertheless, the European tribunals have classified them as State Terrorism, largely because the Serbian commanders went unpunished and were not relieved of their command by their civilian leadership.

In other words: this entry would be more suitable for inclusion on the "Definition of Terrorism" or "State Terrorism" page, because it is not dealing with specific U.S. actions. Stone put to sky 09:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

European tribunals have certainly not classified anything as "State Terrorism" since the term in not used in international law. Those responsible at Abu Ghraib was punished. But you miss my point. Again, the US is often wrongly blamed for every single human rights violations in nations or by groups they have in some way supported, regardless of if this was approved of by the foreign leaderships or not, and regardless of if the US have tried to use its influence to stop this or not.Ultramarine 10:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

In order:

A) Yes, they have.

B) No, they weren't, and you do a grave dishonor to our servicemen and women to suggest such a thing.

C) Irrelevant material.

So, here i am, once again repeating myself "for clarity's sake":

Having sources is irrelevant if your arguments don't belong on this page. Stone put to sky 10:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, read WP:V, your unsourced claims are not relevant.Ultramarine 10:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Ultramarine. My views certainly are relevant, because i dislike it very much when vandals target Misplaced Pages in an attempt to deface pages. This is irrelevant material, and unless you can provide some sort of justification for it then it will be deleted. Stone put to sky 10:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Justification provided. Regarding your unsourced claims, read WP:V.Ultramarine 11:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• Defenders of the former School of the Americas argue that no school should be held accountable for the actions of only some of its many graduates. The school has been reorganized and renamed to The Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC). It is now under the Department of Defence instead of the US army. Now also civilians and police personnel to attend. Before coming to WHINSEC each student is “vetted” by his/her nation. Students are first screened by their own government and then screened by the U. S. embassy in that country. If there is any hint of wrongdoing in the student’s past, the student is not permitted into the United States to attend WHINSEC. All students are now required to receive a between eight and over forty hours of instruction, at beginning of each of the more than twenty classes, in "human rights training in law, ethics, rule of law and practical applications in military and police operations."Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation. "FAQ".Center for International Policy. "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation". Retrieved May 6. {{cite web}}: |author= has generic name (help); Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)

Once again: this is about the School of the Americas, not about State terrorism by the United States. If you want to take this to the SOA/WHINSEC page, then feel free. However, this page is not the place for a debate over the School of the Americas -- unless you are willing to admit an entire section on the School of the Americas, one that clearly accuses it of a role in U.S.-sponsored state terrorism and allows a proper debate over its role and responsibilities.

Unless you are willing to create an entire section on the SOA, then there is simply no place for this passage to be included here. For my part, i'll be happy to let you start that section, provided you are honorable enough to allow a proper debate over its role in these atrocities. By that, i mean you'll need to make sure that sentences like "Because of its role in training the initiators of the Guatemalan genocides and other atrocities" doesn't get deleted by some guy because it's "POV". I would be quite content with seeing your "opposing viewpoints" here just so long as you are willing to accord those of us who disagree with a similar freedom to include our own views.

If not -- if you instead insist upon abiding by the artificial double standard you and your comrades have insisted upon setting for this page -- the i will continue to insist that this is not the place for it. Stone put to sky 10:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Since the article includes criticisms of the former school, the views of the other side should also be included. One sided bashing is not allowed as per NPOV.Ultramarine 10:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you are introducing yet another straw man. The article contains sourced facts about the graduates of the school and its reputation at the time. Your comments contain sourced opinions about the current school, disseminated by government sources who get their salaries by either working for or defending it, and defending it against current criticism.

When we have mentioned the School of the Americas it is within a strictly limited historical context, a time period that ends in about 1990. You are introducing material about the school that clearly has nothing to do with the events mentioned, that does not explain or elaborate anything of relevance, and which has nothing to do with State Terrorism by the United States. So, once again: either start an entirely new section on the School of the Americas - where this material would be appropriate -- or take it out, because it doesn't have anything to do with the article as it stands. Stone put to sky 10:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Shouting will not help your case. The article contains statements like "is a terrorist training ground." and certainly does not mention a 1990 limit. So again per NPOV, both sides should be included.Ultramarine 10:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not shouting. Why would you suggest that? I was simply highlighting certain passages to try and help you understand that there are a few fundamental ideas you're not recognizing, even though i have repeated them many times over. Just as i am doing here, once again:

Citing sources is not enough. The material must be relevant to the page. This material is not. Stone put to sky 10:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Shouting again will not help you. You have not given any reason for you claim.Ultramarine 10:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments on "Opposing views" by Ultramarine

If this article were a comprehensive examination of current and past US foreign policy then some of your points would be relevant as responses to criticism. However, this article lists some examples of terrorism perpetrated by the US gov't, and as such, going in the order of your bullet points: 1. the reasons given for the underlying US policy which includes terrorism; 2. the alleged lack of US terror against democratic gov'ts (not true in 1953 Iran, against Arbenz, Chile 1972 and many other examples); 3. the number of victims (again, not true since WWII, since the US achieved superpower status, the US has been number one in number of people killed as part of its wars, offical and unofficial); 4. the lack of US media focus on other conflict zones; 5. the examples of US soldiers committing atrocities without official approval; 6. the alleged current "reformed" activities of WHINSEC; and 7. the policies of other friendly nations, are all irrelevant to the documented terrorist actions in the past. Think about it, we are talking about history not how good or bad we think we feel about current policy or about the context of other policies. Having said that, I am all for including opposing views and if there are pertinent criticims of the article I for one would be all ears.--NYCJosh 19:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

You give no sources for your claims, while I have done that. Obviously we should discuss arguments for and against, as per Misplaced Pages:NPOV.Ultramarine 19:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC) I did not make any factual claims (the parenthetical remarks were included to address errors of fact but could be safely ignored for purposes of the discussion of the relevance, or lack thereof, of the points you raised). --NYCJosh 16:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You points may help explain some points of US policy. However I find far more important the influx of anti-communists from Eastern Europe at the start of the Cold War, and their effect on US foreign policy through diaspora politics in the United States, as well as their integration into American intelligence services. See for example Blowback - America's recruitment of Nazis, and its disastrous effect on our domestic and foreign policy. -- Petri Krohn 20:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting theory. Relative importance is difficult to determine.Ultramarine 21:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the first two points are great and should be included in some manner, however the bottom four seem to stray, if they are in direct relation to a particular claim it should be noted. The last point given seems the most far off. Saying soldiers kill people often, but they are not sanctioned to kill civilians would seem obvious, just attempt to connect which areas you are defending and it will look tighter. --SixOfDiamonds 20:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I will work on the last points.Ultramarine 21:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to make them clearer.Ultramarine 21:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

NYCJosh is right in all of his points, and he doesn't need "sources" for them because they are general observations about directions you want this page to be taken. As your response to his point indicates, your bullet points above have little -- if anything -- to do with the page in its current form, but instead introduce an entirely different set of debates about what can be called terrorism, what actions.atrocities/killings does the U.S. ultimately deserve responsibility for, what is the nature of the international legal situation, and so forth.

Most of them are far beyond the scope of this page. The only thing that this page is concerned with -- as NYCJosh deftly pointed out -- is historical facts: what did the United States do, when did it do it, and how is it that people perceive the U.S. as responsible. Your points don't address that, but instead deal with meta-questions: What is responsibility? What is "terrorism", and why is it bad? and so forth.

Once again: i am totally in favor of including opposing viewpoints; if you had been around when i was dealing with NuclearUmpf then you'd remember that i, in fact, pushed to take the page in just such a direction. However, he -- and his cadre of supporters -- made it quite clear at that time that anything they considered to be offensive would not be allowed, regardless of its relevance to the discussion we had agreed upon.

Thus, this page has gotten saddled with the brutish, boring task of simply enumerating those historical facts about international terrorism disseminated by the U.S. Fortunately, however, a page that deals exclusively with the doctrine of State Terrorism has already been created. Insofar as your material deals with general concepts, it is more suitably placed there. For the other stuff, read my criticisms above. Stone put to sky 10:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I cite sources, you not regarding these opposing views. What this page is saddled with is being a dumping ground original research project for anonynomous Misplaced Pages editors who personally think that something is "state terrorism" regardless if such an allegation has been made or not by a reliable source. The opposing views material above deals with the US, as can be seen in the points and sources.Ultramarine 10:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Citing sources is not enough. The material must be relevant to the page. Yours is not. Stone put to sky 10:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It is as discussed above.Ultramarine 10:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps rewording will help, perhaps if you stated: In the case of Nicaragua vs. XYZ it is often argued that the perpetrators were acting without direct orders. Often soldiers can commit crimes without the sanctioning of their government ... etc. Then if there is direct relevance as it seems to be the issue here, it is shown clearly. --SixOfDiamonds 12:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I will see if I can make it clearer.Ultramarine 14:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

As long as it's on-topic, no problem. If it's off-topic, though, it will be deleted. Stone put to sky 14:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I will follow policy. See also WP:SOAP.However, I do am considering starting to delete all the sections, or at least moving them to talk for discussion, not containing soucrces stating that these acts are state terrorism.Ultramarine 17:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You should absolutely do so, I will support you 100%. - Merzbow 07:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if this article survives based on the very weak arguments to keep it that have shown on on its latest Afd, this article should be reduced to about one paragraph if that.--MONGO 07:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean the weak arguments to delete, if you want to call them arguments at all. This article actually needs expansion to about twice its size. And, I propse a second article, one based only on allegations, which would be much, much larger (and in my view more complete). That way, we can keep this one relatively small, as it is now.Giovanni33 08:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

In the meantime I've begun the cleanup effort by removing links in the lead to vanity presses, non-notable web magazines (those without a Misplaced Pages article), non-notable organizations (those without a Misplaced Pages article), and articles which do not specifically accuse the U.S. of state terrorism or of funding terrorism. That leaves Chomsky as the only ICJ accuser, and Chomsky and Cohn as the only overall accusers. Please defend the removed sources individually on talk before re-adding, arguing why they meet WP:RS and where they specifically accuse the U.S. of state terrorism or of funding terrorist organizations. - Merzbow 08:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent start.Ultramarine 09:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is that people seem to be throwing up any link that comes up in a Google search. A page that claims to be a "human rights organization" must be a notable one to meet WP:RS. A book cited must be a notable book to meet WP:RS - i.e. it cannot be published by a vanity or boutique press by an author who is an activist instead of a scholar. Political webzines do not meet WP:RS, with few exceptions for the most notable (Salon). Blogs do not meet WP:RS, again with very few exceptions. The cites I removed either fall into these categories and/or do not support the text cited. - Merzbow 16:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree.Ultramarine 21:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. I looked at the references and they appear to be from reliable sources. Please list which one you feel does not qualify and state why, so we can come to some consensus about which ones should be removed. Until then I've restored it.Giovanni33 00:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Gladly. I expect quick and detailed explanations why each of these satisfy the requirements of WP:RS and WP:V.

Thanks for doing this. Let me comment below on each one. I will need more time to complete this, as I only just now finished reading the paper by redress.org, which I recommend reading for its instructive and scholarly nature, with ample footnotes and well cited sources in this publication, and its done so in a very neutral manner. I think Ultramarine would be able to use a lot of this material found here for the offical rational and defense given by the US govt., which the paper documents.Giovanni33 06:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.leksikon.org/art.php?n=2543 - Some random website in Dutch. Does not appear to be a major publication or notable organization of any kind.

Can't comment on this one as I don't read Dutch. But you might be right. But I thank you for giving it a little time here for other editors to respond to it.Giovanni33 06:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Leksikon is not a "vanity" site; it's a website published and maintained by a Danish political organization, one that co-ordinates political activists and reports on local (Norway and Denmark) political developments. It has some links to some 273 different organizations, including universities, political parties, newspapers, and magazines, among others.

It appears that Merzbow is basing his judgment of the site upon its low production values; however, that's a red-herring. Leksikon is an all-volunteer project and its design is consistent with its purpose and approach. Contributing members are, however, members of the local political leadership, activist organizers, and university lecturers. Stone put to sky 06:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If officialy states that it is not neutral and cites no sources. The supposed claim that the US is responsible for state terrorism is simply a general statement claiming that warfare in general is terrorism.Ultramarine 09:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.redress.org/publications/TerrorismReport.pdf - "redress.org" is not a notable human rights organization. They have no Misplaced Pages article, for one. What are they notable for and who has recognized them for it? Plus this report does not accuse the US of terrorism.

Ok, I disagree about this not being a reputable human rights and charity organization focused on victims of tourture. This British NGO is, I note, supporte by the United Nations Voluntary Fund for Victims of Torture, and count on their staff legal advisors Professor Michael Bazyler, Professor of Law, Whittier University, Los Angeles; Geoffrey Bindman Solicitor specialising in human rights and senior partner at Bindmans and Partners, solicitors; Professor Kevin Boyle, Professor of Law, University of Essex;Professor David Harris, Professor of Law, Nottingham University; Professor David Weissbrodt, Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota Law School and Chairperson of the United Nations Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights, among others. It doesn't matter if WP doesn't have an article about them. My investigation convinces me they are a reputable organization and offer very scholarly and balanced papers and reports on many countries.

However, having read the paper in question, I have to agree that it doesnt make the accusation, directly, that the US has committed state terrorism. But it states that the line between the US's anti-terrorism action and terrorism has not always been clear. It cites the case of US vs. Nicaruaga, to illustrate this point, and does state the US was found guilty of violating international law, and use of unlawful force, etc. At most the paper states that the US may have been guilty of state terrorism, in so far as that line between its alleged anti-terrorism actions and actually committing state terrorism has not always been clear. I'm not sure how others feel about this, but I will not oppose you removing this source for this reason, although I think its an excellent for the external links section on any topic dealing with states and terrorism.Giovanni33 06:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I would be o.k. with moving it to the external links section. Stone put to sky 06:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

External links is fine. - Merzbow 18:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.cetim.ch/fr/interventions_details.php?iid=207 - the web site of some French activist group. Non-notable as far as I can tell. No Misplaced Pages article on them. What have they done and who has recognized them for it?

CETIM is "Accredited to the Economic and Social Council of the UN (ECOSOC) and to the UNCTAD". 'Nuff said. Stone put to sky 06:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Not even the French Misplaced Pages has an article about it. 'Nuff said.Ultramarine 09:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You're saying it can be cut because it doesn't have a wikipedia page? That's patently absurd. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, because if it's notable enough to quote, it usually already has a page. Not notable. - Merzbow 18:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20030116&articleId=372 - does not accuse the US of terrorism. "Global Research" is a non-notable activist group. No Misplaced Pages article on them. What have they done and who has recognized them for it?

Independent publication. It does have a wikipedia page. Contributors include former bureaucrats from military and intelligence services, famed academics, professional journalists, and lots of other folks, too. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.richardheinberg.com/museletter/117 - the blog of some guy from the "Post-Carbon" institute. Blogs are only allowed if the blogger is very notable and is writing on his area of expertise. This person is neither a professor nor is he writing about oil or carbon here. See Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29 - "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so."

Well known, professional researcher? Well, i'd say this qualifies:

In addition to having eight books, three of them deal with the relationship between oil and warfare. I'd say that pretty much makes him a relevant authority. Stone put to sky 06:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Where did you take that from? Even assuming he is an oil expert, then we can still not cite his blog regarding state terrorism.Ultramarine 09:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I took it from his website; material from published professionals in the field of study is clearly allowed per wikipolicy. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

1. http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html - the personal website of a professor of "Geography and Native American Studies". As above this person is not writing in his area of expertise, thus not allowed per the above quote from WP:V.

Grosman is a professor of geography; i don't know when you last checked, but cataloging geographic locales and their political changes is exactly what geographers are paid to do. This subject matter is well within his expertise, the page contains sources, methodology, abstract, and secondary sources for follow up studies. It meets all academic standards, it is within his area of expertise, and well surpasses wikipedia criteria for inclusion. Stone put to sky 06:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

State terrorism does not fall under geography.Ultramarine 09:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. WP:V is crystal clear about this. His expertise is not foreign policy, and he is not interviewed extensively and published extensively on the subject like Chomsky. - Merzbow 18:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are both clearly out of your element here. Geography is the study of political and physical boundaries, and Native American Studies straddles the North-Central American borders. A professor of geography and Native American Studies is clearly qualified to comment on terrorist and military actions that take place within his field of study, and that is exactly what this lecturer is doing.

You wouldn't argue that a professor of 19th c. European Geography and Germanic Studies is never qualified to talk about the effects of Napoleon's conquests, and so neither can you argue that a professor of Geography and Native American Studies is a priori unqualified to write about terrorist acts within his given field.

Finally, the referenced page is a sourced work published widely across the internet and in media publications.

You both need to do better than that. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Show me what articles and books from academic presses he's published on the subject of US foreign policy, and then he qualifies under the self-published rule. - Merzbow 18:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans/ - From a blog called "What's Left". The author holds no academic post of any type. Gimme a break.- Merzbow 03:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Author is published in Counterpunch and Globalresearch; a search on his name in Google turns up at least 200 separate articles published by various websites. He is a political commentator who reports primarily on conflicts in third-world nations and military campaigns by the United States. Clearly, a professional writing in the subject of his specialty, and in addition the source is up there for no reason other than to prove that "numerous people" actually are talking about this subject. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, proof by Google. So you can't argue here that he has any academic credentials, so your "proof" is the number of websites he's managed to get his screeds on? Err, no. - Merzbow 18:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Another one:

http://www.rrojasdatabank.org/ - Some page maintained by an activist who holds no academic post, he doesn't even merit a Misplaced Pages article. - Merzbow 22:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No academic post? You've got to be kidding. From Rojas' website:

Finally, his entire website is set up as a research tool for people interested in "Political Economy":

The website is a repository of data from the World Bank, IMF, WTO, Columbia University, Rojas' own publications, and has had over 4,000,000 hits from 160 different countries.

Looks like a relevant authority to me. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't look like he was even a professor, and he hasn't held an academic post for years. Only book Amazon lists is something from 1976, on Chile. - Merzbow 18:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Even more:

1. http://www.ahrchk.net/ahrc-in-news/mainfile.php/2007ahrcinnews/1130/ - article by retired English professor

From his Misplaced Pages page, E. San Juan, Jr.:

Looks like an authority to me. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.asia-pacific-action.org/statements/2005/ran_noaid2militaryregimes_250505.htm - non-notable activist group

Look again; first, this is a collation of various news sources; second, the article referenced was originally authored by The Reality of Aid, whose list of members (http://www.realityofaid.org/about.php?id=6) certainly qualifies it as a notable organization. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, what qualifies an organization is notable is other unquestionably notable organizations or people saying so. I don't recognize any of those organizations on that list. Once again you can't find any academic degrees within a mile of this article, so by your own standards above, it isn't acceptable. - Merzbow 18:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.counterpunch.org/petras03172006.html - activist magazine, article by former sociology professor

Oh, this is silly. Counterpunch has a wikipedia page, and therein is noted:

The writer is James Petras,

An article written by an academic who has authored at least one book (maybe two) published on the topic in question, and published in a widely read periodical that deals in political commentary. Clearly a valid source. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Zed books? What university or major publishers are they associated with? Another foreign policy amateur. - Merzbow 18:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.indcatholicnews.com/shayc218.html - "Fr Shay Cullen is a Columban priest working in the Philippines"

Can't get much more neutral than a priest -- and can't get much more authoritative than this one. From his webpage (found here: http://www.preda.org/frcullen.htm):

'Nuff said. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Good for him. Nothing in there qualifies him to speak on foreign policy. - Merzbow 18:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. http://www.india-seminar.com/2002/518/518%20roland%20g.%20simbulan.htm - Who the heck is "ROLAND G. SIMBULAN"?

'Nuff said. Stone put to sky 18:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Please stop throwing up whatever randomly drifts to the top of a Google search, because that's what going on here. - Merzbow 16:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the issue here seems more to be one of you not reading the sources and simply challenging them off the top of your head. Add to that a healthy dose of what appears to be casual bigotry towards any source that doesn't originate in the United States and i think we've pretty much summed up the whole problem. Stone put to sky 18:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the problem is respected academics, academic presses and publications for the most part won't touch this stuff. You appear blissfully unaware that you undermine your side by citing priests and bloggers. Those who already agree with you won't change their mind, but those on the fence and those who disagree will check out those cites and see that you've scraped the bottom of the barrel so enthusiastically you've almost broken through. (Those readers too dumb to double-check cites fail at life). In fact, I think I'll support you on this. You mind if I dig up more sources of the quality of those above and add them? - Merzbow 18:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Posada Sources

Just to have them handy. Not sure if they are in use already:

• - Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela Ministry of Foreign Affairs - "On the contrary, the current Government of the United States practices State terrorism, something which is questioned by the world and most of the people in the United States. The invasions to Iraq and Afghanistan are emblematic in this regard."

Quotes

What relevance do those have other than to push a pov? One is a prominent leftist, another an openly anti-American leader, and the last a leader of a country were anti-American sentiment runs extremely strong. At best this is extremely unbalanced and pushes a clear viewpoint. --MichaelLinnear 06:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Should be removed.Ultramarine 06:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry; these are quotes regarding State Terrorism by the United States and meet all standards hitherto agreed upon for the page. You are not allowed to delete material simply because you don't like it, or don't agree with those responsible for creating it. Whether or not you consider these people "good americans" or "sympathetic to America" or "neutral regarding America" is irrelevant; the fact is that these statements have been made, they meet our agreed upon standards, and so they belong on the page.

If y'all would like to include some sort of commentary explaining that this is an encyclopedic treatment of the subject -- and not a direct indictment of the United States -- then feel free. I'd suggest you explain how this is merely an encyclopedic treatment of the subject that introduces the concepts, arguments, and evidence used by people to justify the phrase "State Terrorism by the United States". That is how this page is intended (and always has been), and if you wish to add that material the other editors here will be happy to aid you in any way we can.

We will not, however, allow you to delete this material. Stone put to sky 07:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

So you refuse to allow counter-criticisms as per the section above, but insist on including inflammatory quotes? Ultramarine 08:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all. I will happily include counter-criticisms if they are relevant to this article.

Counter-criticisms of the concept of "State Terrorism" do not belong here; we have a separate wikipedia article (called, suitably enough, State terrorism) for that.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it i who suggested we include a section here that would allow a back-and forth over such ideas? But then, it got deleted per the insistence of several other editors here, of which -- hey? Weren't you the loudest one? Ah, well -- feeling the strain, now, are we?

Likewise, digressions into what "defenders of the SOA" think are equally irrelevant, because this simply isn't an article about the SOA. This is an article about State Terrorism by the United States, so a back-and-forth about the SOA is inappropriate (unless, that is, you care to create a separate section where we can include such criticisms?).

These quotes, however, have been up for nearly two years, maybe longer. Nobody has tried to delete them, and in that time you have been one of the most vocal critics and constraining forces on this page.

Now, just above clearly state that you will "start to delete" things unless you can post material that you think should be here even though it is clearly off-topic. What i find very interesting is that yes, indeed, you are beginning to do just that! In this case, demanding that material which for over two years you have never objected to nor ever suggested should be removed now be deleted. Stone put to sky 09:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Read Misplaced Pages:POV forking. One sided bashing is not allowed. Since the article has stataments like that the SOA "is a terrorist training ground", opposite views must also be included.Ultramarine 09:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Global Research

This is a news and commentary site that collates work from professional writers, scholars, and activists. It is published in two languages, and has regular readership in Africa, Western Europe, and North America. It publishes independent news reports for which it has won recognition from several notable awards and standards organizations. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with material from this website. Stone put to sky 07:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Edited by 9/11 alternative theorist Michel Chossudovsky which has also written the article you give as a source for supposed US "state terrorism" While Chossudovsky in this article, as elsewhere, talks about 9/11, he does not accuse the US of terrorism, as far as I can see.Ultramarine 09:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:V - "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources.". This is not a newspaper, it's a non-notable political webzine. - Merzbow 16:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Guatemala 1

"US Government funding and training of of Guatemalan 'Death Squads'"

Source number one is to unspecific. Which of these 32 documents support the allegation? Many speak of the opposite. The second source speaks only of a single person.Ultramarine 08:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Source one is by no means unspecific. Both of those links either directly link to summaries or themselves contain summaries of the content of the documents. The summaries are written by professional historians tasked with maintaining, collating, cataloging and cross-referencing the archives. The statements which these sources footnote are clearly supported by both these summaries and the content itself.

If the editors here are going to quibble over simple statements like "U.S. funding and training of Guatemalan Death Squads", then you should expect such voluminous sources in response. Virtually all of those 32 documents contains a direct reference to funding and/or training. Stone put to sky 09:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Pleae use proper Indentation when replying. Regarding source one, again, which of these 32 documents support your claim? Many speak of the oppposite, mentioning US criticisms and strained relations due to human rights violations in Guatemala. Again, the second source speaks only of a single person.Ultramarine 09:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The second source outlines the career development of a man convicted of repeated acts of state terrorism and shows how, over a span of nearly four decades, the U.S. government aided and intervened on his behalf in an effort to advance his career and further empower him despite knowing of his long and horrendous list of crimes. It is a single, in-depth case.

The first source excerpts documents from a thirty five year period showing that the U.S. continued to fund, train, and politically support Guatemalan military leaders despite full knowledge of the extent of the Guatemalan state's atrocities. Yes, there are dissenting opinions; however, a dissenting opinion doesn't count unless it changes policy. The documents from the first source clearly show that despite repeated warnings and condemnations of the Guatemalan state apparatus and its primary, Washington-backed, -funded, and -trained leadership, the United States Government even yet maintained support and funding for the criminals. Stone put to sky 09:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, regarding source one, which of these 32 support your claim? I can find no one that includes training or funding death squads. Regarding the second, giving some training to one man who is alleged (not convicted) to have done human rights violations is not evidence for general support and training of death squads.Ultramarine 09:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Having already answered this specific question twice, i will not waste my time on it again. Please remember, however, that any attempt to delete this material will be considered vandalism. Stone put to sky 06:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

No it won't. - Merzbow 07:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Guatemala 2

Why the long graphic rape description? That one of the persons involved spoke American English is not evidence for anything.Ultramarine 08:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The rape testimony is taken from the trial of a SOA graduate taken by a US citizen in a US court. The court decided it had jurisdiction because the man in question was then teaching in the SOA. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 08:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Source please. He had given a speech at the SOA somewhere around this time, which is not teaching.Ultramarine 09:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The sources are in the article. 91 and 93. The actual quote is taken from 93. Plain as day. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, they are not. Exact page number and quote please.Ultramarine 09:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly from the article: "93. # ^ Gareau, Frederick H. (2004). State Terrorism and the United States. London: Zed Books, pp22-25 and pp61-63. ISBN 1-84277-535-9." ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Even Stone put to sky agree below that he was at Harvard, not at the SOA.Ultramarine 09:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but the article doesn't say that, it was just my faulty memory on this talk page. I read the book 6 months ago. So he was a student of SOA but teaching in Harvard during the trial? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources are already provided, and clearly support the statements and testimony. Regardless of how you might wish to remove it, the testimony occurred in a court-case that convicted the U.S. funded, Harvard-attending, SOA-commencement-giving, U.S. trained Gramajo-Morales of crimes that clearly qualify as terrorism. The testimony provides insight into what sort of torture these death-squads routinely engaged in, how they were managed, and the participation of at least one man "who spoke broken Spanish with a heavy North American accent" and who (unquoted, but in the testimony) was to deliver Sister Ortiz to the U.S. Embassy.

Call me silly if you want, but i doubt that the North American was from Canada. Stone put to sky 09:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There are lots of persons who speak American English who are not connected to the US government. That Morales took some courses at the SOA for half a year does not mean that a rape by some of his men, assuming this is true, is state terrorism by the US.Ultramarine 09:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Its not for us wikipedians to determine that. If we did it would be OR. Look at the quoted sources - they claim it does show US state terrorism. That is what is important for wikipedia. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Which source claims that this rape was state terrorism by the US? Ultramarine 09:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

For one: "Gareau, Frederick H. (2004). State Terrorism and the United States. London: Zed Books, pp22-25 and pp61-63. ISBN 1-84277-535-9."

Exactly how does he explain that this rape is state terrorism? Ultramarine 09:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The book explains how the rapists were trained and funded by the US. Their actions were aimed at controlling the population through violence and fear. The author claims this amounts to state terrorism by the US and named his book as such. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Seabhcan, but that's all irrelevant. The standards of this page demand that we show a source considers something to be State Terrorism. Once we have done that, the standards of this page have also demanded that any statements by the source be backed up with referenced sources. We have done both.

Of course, it didn't need to be this way (still doesn't, in fact). These are the standards that you have imposed upon us, Ultramarine. Since we must abide by them, you must, too.

If you would like to add some content to the page to expand its scope beyond what we see here then we will be happy to discuss that with you. As it is, though, there is no need for us to go into Gareau's reasoning. If you want to know that, i suggest you read the book. For the purposes of this page -- and according the strict standards for content that have been largely a product of your own rueful making -- the sources stand as they currently are. Stone put to sky 09:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine. Then we can state that Gareau thinks this rape is "state terrorism" but we do not know why. Why is the graphic rape scene included? Ultramarine 09:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Rape is widely considered to be a form of terrorism. If you read the UN reports on Darfur, state sponsored rape gangs are given as proof of terroristic intent. The rape scene is from testimony from a trial. Why shouldn't it be included? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Why include a long graphic description of just this particular rape? Ultramarine 09:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This 'particular rape' is important because it was recounted as testimony in a trial. That trail was widely reported in the media, at the UN and discussed in academic works. This is why I think it should be included. Why do you think it shouldn't? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Assuming we should mention this particular rape, why must we have a long graphic description of the rape itself? Ultramarine 09:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It is the woman's testimony given at the trial of the accused. I don't feel it right to reword it. Would you like to edit what she said? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No need to include it. We can simply state "Frederick H Gareau, Frederick H states in his book that the rape in Guatemala by persons not yet identified of US citizen and nun, Sister Diana Ortiz, was state terrorism by the US".Ultramarine 10:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Seabhcan and i have already given clear, unambiguous, and lengthy (in my case) answers to this question. There is no need for us to answer it again, and we won't.

We are not here to indulge your inquisitive nature, Ultramarine. Having answered the question and given justifications that are clearly supported both by Misplaced Pages protocol as well as the standards of this page (standards for which you, incidentally, are primarily responsible), there is no need for us to continue responding to repetitions of the word "Why?".

If you ask again, my answer will simply be: "Because. And if you want more, then look at the five entries above that've already answered this question." Stone put to sky 10:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm interested in Ultramarine thoughts on the subject. Do you want to edit the testimony of this rape victim? and if so, why? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that you do not want to discuss the issues. The article will then be corrected.Ultramarine 10:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I do want to discuss the issues. You can start by answering the above question.... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No need to include the graphic rape scene. We can simply state "Frederick H Gareau has stated that a rape in Guatemala, by persons not yet identified, of US citizen and nun, Sister Diana Ortiz, was state terrorism by the US".Ultramarine 10:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a need to include it. It gives detail and reality to the article. And your version risks being labeled OR. Better to simply quote the book. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It is sensationalistic and not needed. Has no relevance for if this was US state terrorism or not.Ultramarine 10:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The fact that it is public testimony in a relevant trial makes it important in itself. Further, the trial only took place because the accused was in the US and had been trained by the US. Further, and most importantly, secondary sources point to the trial and the testimony as evidence of US state terrorism. What is 'sensational' is the fact that it happened, not the recounting of the woman's experience. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Why should we then not quote the whole testimony? Quoting the particular paragraph has no purpose except being sensationalistic and the insinuation that all persons speaking American English are US government agents.Ultramarine 10:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy for more to be quoted. The insinuation was made in the original source, not by US. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If so, that claim is what should be quoted, not the testimony. Even regading the testimony, why include more than one of the involved was a man called "Alejandro" who "was a tall, light complexioned man, who spoke broken Spanish, but perfect North American English." Ultramarine 10:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This claim was in the original and treated as significant in that source. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not copy whole books and should attribute propersly. If there was an insinuation in the book that "Alejandro" was an US agent, then please quote that.Ultramarine 10:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does do quotes, and quoting the book is not to "copy whole books". ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If there is a claim that the persons involved were US agents, then the text making that claim should be quoted.Ultramarine 10:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm at work and don't have the book to hand. You are free to extend the quote yourself, though. It would be a good opportunity to familiarize yourself with the sources (something you clearly have not done). ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Those who make the claims should give the sources.Ultramarine 11:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The sources are given and publicly available. You seem to be the only one who has a problem with them. You also seem to be the only one who hasn't bothered to read them. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 11:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This is really very simple, Ultramarine: there is no consensus on deleting the material, and it meets all standards so far agreed to in the article.

It is not enough for you to say you don't like it; there must be a good reason to delete it, and you have not offered up one. The other editors here, however, have offered up several clearly explained and very intelligent reasons as to why it should be included.

Thus, the material stays. Stone put to sky 11:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Material must follow policy, wikpedia is no a soapbox for presenting false or biased claims.Ultramarine 11:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Material does follow policy. Moreover, it has gained a long consensus. There are clearly stated reasons for including it. You have yet to make a case that it should be deleted.

The material was included precisely as a result of your insistence that all claism be backed up.

You made the bed. Stone put to sky 11:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I have still not seen a reason for including a long graphic description of this particular rape. Any claims should be made in neutral language to be encyclopedia.Ultramarine 11:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

And we have seen no reason not to include it. It was deemed fit for inclusion in the academic source quoted. It is fit for wikipedia. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 11:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It has no purpose currently. If you want to add that this is evidence of something, then please do so quoting a source.Ultramarine 11:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The material clearly follows policy; many reasons have already been given for why it should remain; and you are trying to buck an already established consensus.

You set the standards for inclusion in this article; it was because of your own insistence that every statement in the article be sourced that we have found it necessary to include this testimony. Clearly, the portion of the article in question is dealing with the case of Sister Ortiz, who was awarded several millions in U.S. dollars (which were never received) because she suffered torture, rape and other abuse at the hands of a squad of Guatemalan military people.

The testimony was given in the U.S. courts and accepted as evidence therein. It demonstrates that what is asserted about Sister Ortiz' case has been accepted as truth; it demonstrates the severity of the abuse and torture Guatemalan victims generally suffered; and it demonstrates that the abuse was clearly suffered while she was under the nominal "care" of the state. All of these things contribute to the various points that are required for an act to qualify as "terrorist" in nature, according to the FBI, CIA, and other definitions of terrorism.

Because the testimony is able to bear witness to all these various facets of the issue at hand, it is extremely powerful. Because it is so succinct, it is very valuable. Thus, because it is succinct and powerful, it is included here.

The material will remain, and please be advised that if you attempt to delete it your actions will be interpreted as vandalism. Stone put to sky 11:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Individual accounts of terror

How do you people have time to get any work done?

The article could use a few graphic descriptions of violence like the rape scene. It is important to convey that this is not just some abstract issue about whether the acts of an abstract entity like a nation-state called the U.S. may be described under the rubric of "terrorism" but it is a very real issue with very real victims and consequences. It should never be just a dry recitation of places, dates and numbers of victims.--NYCJosh 18:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

But the purpose is conversely not to inflame the reader with endless graphic descriptions of torture porn that do not advance the discussion. This is an encyclopedia, not an activist site. Long quotes are summarized, with few exceptions. - Merzbow 19:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The passages about Guatemala are necessary to provide a personal account of the methods used by the US-supported death-squads to terrorize the population. The mass killings (bodies in pits), the lack of proper burial (the rats), the torture/rape tactics all served to terrorize the population in a very effective way. It is not endless--only several sentences, and is not "torture porn"--the reader is not led to identify with the torturers and is not particularly graphic in describing in anatomical details.

I would call for additional such human narration for countries other than Guatemala to provide the perspective of the victims, bring the discussion down from the abstract level to the human level, and to provide some specifics on the METHODS of terror. As a former graduate student of history, I know that the emphasis on individual human descriptions of important historical pheonmena (to the extent that they are in some sense typical or that they shed light on the larger abstract historical reality under discussion) has been an important trend. It's bottom up history not top-down history. --NYCJosh 21:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't claim to be an expert in encyclopedias or anything, but although it's a trend in history books, I doubt very much that bottom-up history (if I understand what that phrase means) is the trend in encyclopedias. In my opinion, an encyclopedia should portray items in an objective (i.e., "abstract"), rather than a personal, manner.

I agree that in an enclyclopedia bottom-up history should dominate in terms of prominence over succint dry accounts (if you look at my additions to this article, you'll note that they're just about all in the latter category). But there is an important place for the former for the reasons given. --NYCJosh 22:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

An encyclopedia is not for the purposes of containing verbatim narratives by victims recounting their experiences at excruciating length. See WP:ISNOT - Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. It is enough to say that someone was tortured, letting them go on and on about rats and dead bodies is transparently geared to inflame the reader while providing no relevant information to the discussion at hand. The article is not about the methods of torture, it is about allegations of state terrorism. - Merzbow 03:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Your objections are irrelevant, Merzbow; the content is in no way "soap-box" ranting and your attempt to portray it as such is laughable. There is consensus for the content, there is good reason for the content (see above), and it conforms both to Misplaced Pages policy as well as the contrived standards of content you and Ultramarine have devised for this page.

Please understand that if you try to delete the material your actions will be considered vandalism. Stone put to sky 04:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Guatemala 3

"estimate that the Guatemalan conflict claimed the lives of some 200,000 people with the most savage bloodletting occurring in the 1980s." The OR implication is that the US is responsible for all of these deaths when the in fact the US had cut of military aid during much of this period.Ultramarine 08:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That is pure claptrap; the statement implies only that the U.S. was a responsible party, and in no way suggests full and sole culpability.

As for the funding, the U.S. legislature cut off aid during that period; clearly, you are forgetting the secret CIA aid (quoted -- and sourced -- elsewhere in this article) that continued to be sent. Stone put to sky 09:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Please use indentation. Then we should obviously mention that the US is not responsible for all these deaths. What is the source for that CIA aid continued during this whole period?Ultramarine 09:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I only use indentation when it seems appropriate; typically, it's when i'm commenting on a block of text or engaging in a digression from the main point of a conversation. When in a dialogue on the talk page, however, i do not consider it appropriate.

Nor do i consider your request to be all that civil; i don't spend my time correcting your english or formatting options and i think it's a small thing to ask you to exercise restraint and show similar respect.

Finally: no, it is not necessary for us to introduce any such extraneous commentary. The text already makes quite clear that primary responsibility for these atrocities lay with the Guatemalan military, and that the U.S. is culpable only for the training, funding, political support and political leadership of the primary actors. Stone put to sky 09:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Does not state that. Only evidence presented has been limited training and some material assistance to some of the persons involved. The US did not support the regime politically for long periods.Ultramarine 09:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the text most certainly does state that, and the sources i have provided -- which are summaries of declassified CIA documents -- clearly show that funding, training, political support and political leadership were all provided to the Guatemalan leadership of that era.

You can't argue with declassified documentation, Ultramarine. It's all clearly there, and in no way controversial. Unless you can come up with a better argument, then the text will remain as it stands. Stone put to sky 10:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The sources you speak shows that the US cut off military support for long periods, helped stop a coup in 1993, and that the CIA, especially in more recent times, tried to lessen the human rights violations.Ultramarine 10:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You are not reading the sources:

"The funds the CIA provided to the Guatemalan liaison services were vital to the D-2 and Archivos. This funding was seen as necessary to make these services more capable partners with the station, particularly in pursuing anti-communist and counternarcotics objectives. The CIA, with the knowledge of ambassadors and other State Department and National Security Council officials, as well as the Congress, continued this aid after the termination of overt military assistance in l990.

There have been public allegations that CIA funds were increased to compensate for the cutoff of military aid in 1990. We did not find this to have been the case. Overall CIA funding levels to the Guatemalan services dropped consistently from about $3.5 million in FY 1989 to about l million in l995."

It clearly says the CIA continued to fund them. I understand you want to post counter arguments, but you are not looking well when you do not read the sources. --74.73.16.230 10:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC) More from this source:

Relations between the US and Guatemalan governments came under strain in 1977, when the Carter administration issued its first annual human rights report on Guatemala. The Guatemalan government rejected that report's negative assessment and refused US military aid. The Guatemalan government rejected that report's negative assessment and refused US military aid. The human rights situation deteriorated further in the late 1970's and early 1980's, as the Guatemalan army--in which the intelligence and security services played a central role--waged a ruthless scorched-earth campaign against the communist guerrillas as well as noncombatants. In the course of this campaign in a country with a population that has never been more than approximately 10 million, more than 100,000 Guatemalans died. Through the 1980's and into the 1990's, the human rights situation gradually improved as the insurgency waned, but successive Department of State human rights reports continued to document egregious violations, including murders of political opponents. Relations between the two countries warmed in the mid-1980's with gradual improvements in human rights and the Reagan administration's emphasis on curbing the spread of communism in Central America. After a civilian government under President Cerezo was elected in 1985, overt non-lethal US military aid to Guatemala resumed. In December 1990, however, largely as a result of the killing of US citizen Michael DeVine by members of the Guatemalan army, the Bush administration suspended almost all overt military aid.

The CIA's successes in Guatemala in conjunction with other US agencies, particularly in uncovering and working to counter coups and in reducing the narcotics flow, were at times dramatic and very much in the national interests of both the United States and Guatemala.

The human rights records of the Guatemalan security services--the D-2 and the Department of Presidential Security (known informally as "Archivos," after one of its predecessor organizations)--were generally known to have been reprehensible by all who were familiar with Guatemala. US policy-makers knew of both the CIA's liaison with them and the services' unsavory reputations. The CIA endeavored to improve the behavior of the Guatemalan services through frequent and close contact and by stressing the importance of human rights -- insisting, for example, that Guatemalan military intelligence training include human rights instruction. The station officers assigned to Guatemala and the CIA headquarters officials whom we interviewed believe that the CIA's contact with the Guatemalan services helped improve attitudes towards human rights. Several indices of human rights observance indeed reflected improvement--whether or not this was due to CIA efforts--but egregious violations continued, and some of the station's closest contacts in the security services remained a part of the problem.

So the US cannot be blamed for all of the deaths in the civil war.Ultramarine 11:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

What is your source? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

. So the US cannot be blamed for all the deaths in the civil war.Ultramarine 11:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The US government investigating itself, and finding itself to be blameless? Would you accept such a report from any other government at face value? If Iran investigated itself and found that it didn't support Hamas, would you consider that the final word on the matter? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 11:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Once again: there is nothing in the text that "blames" the U.S. for "all" the deaths in these incidents of state terrorism. The article clearly connects the U.S. to support -- through funding, training, and political protection -- of the Guatemalan military as it perpetrated many instances of torture, genocide, and terrorism. That's all the article says, and it says it just fine the way things are worded. Stone put to sky 11:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Obviously we must include the above material for NPOV.Ultramarine 11:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The relevant portions of the "above material" have already been included. If you peruse the article, mention is made of the vicissitudes in U.S. public policy, with attribution. The fluff, however, has been properly trimmed.

Once again: while it is perfectly appropriate to include material that shows the U.S. government did worry some over this policy, what is relevant to the article -- and the only thing relevant to the article, at this point -- is that the policy of support -- through funding and training -- did not change.

That is what is relevant to an entry titled "State terrorism by the United States". Again -- these are standards which you yourself engineered and insisted upon, with great prejudice and vehemence. Unless you are willing to change your own policy standards, then there is simply no way we can allow extraneous counter-arguments into the article. Stone put to sky 11:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, the article does not mention the CIA attempt to lessen the human rights violations and the help with stopping coups.Ultramarine 11:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you should include it, not remove anything to make a point, but add a criticism section stating the US point of view per WP:NPOV. If you find sources stating the opposite, those should be included, so why not just add a criticism section to each area? --SixOfDiamonds 15:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the 1996 President’s Intelligence Oversight Board report, the CIA funded D2 continuously from 1965 to 1993 ($3.5 Million/year). The report found that Terry Ward (CIA Latin America Chief) "was derelict in his Constitutional duty to inform Congress of Guatemalan human rights abuses, that he failed to followup the CIA’s commitment to investigate the Honduran military’s death squad, that he looked the other way when the Nicaraguan contras tortured their prisoners". The report stated "in the period since 1984, several CIA assets were credibly alleged to have ordered, planned, or participated in serious human rights violations such as assassination, extrajudicial execution, torture, or kidnapping while they were assets -- and that the CIA was contemporaneously aware". As a result of this report the CIA dropped over 1,000 agents " for lack of productivity, criminality or human rights abuses". The CIA may not have performed the torture themselves but according to U.S. Government documents they did have CIA polygraph experts present during interrogations where prisoners were tortured.
CIA attempts to lessen the human rights violations were rather inadequate. For example the "Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual" that the SOA used to train the interrogators in methods of torture was modified. The sentence "we want to make you aware of them and the proper way to use them (torture techniques)" was modified by putting a line through the phrase “the proper way to use them” and writing above it “so that you may avoid them.” Not the most efficient way to prevent torture. With so much U.S. government paperwork detailing the torture and funding available it amazes me that this is disputed. Wayne 16:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Lots of unsourced claims here. Regardless, the opposing views presented by me above should also be included.Ultramarine 16:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I cannot find your statements in the Intelligence Oversight Board report here: .Ultramarine 16:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You need to look harder. Some of the statements are from that report and some from related documents. It doesn't specifically mention Ward but he was the station Chief so was held responsible and fired. I also used a summary from George Washington university.
I'm interested in how you can have an opposing view when the U.S. government actually admits guilt. Are we talking about the "end justifies the means" defense? Wayne 16:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced claims are not interesting. There are some somewhat similar statements in the acutal report, but very different in crucial aspects, like that the level of aid declined during this period. Many of the quotes seems to be misquotations. Regardless, the opposing views presented in my quotes above should be included.Ultramarine 19:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

For more general opposing views, see the section on Opposing views above.Ultramarine 20:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Wayne, for that comment. I think you have pretty much demolished Ultramarine's line of argument, and i much appreciate the rest.  ;-) Stone put to sky 04:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Nicaragua 1

"Rosa had her breasts cut off. Then they cut into her chest and took out her heart. The men had their arms broken, their testicles cut off, and their eyes poked out. They were killed by slitting their throats and pulling the tongue out through the slit." Why is this graphic description of this particular human rights violation included. The ICJ stated that the US did not have sufficient control over the Contras to be responsible for their human rights violations.Ultramarine 11:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

How strange.

First, the ICJ never said any such thing. They clearly laid responsibility for the overall human rights violations upon the United States; that's why the U.S. was found guilty of an "illegal use of violence", or whatever the statement was.

What the ICJ refused to consider, however, was that every act by the Contras would fall to the responsibility of the United States.

Now, this has all been explained quite clearly above. Apparently you didn't understand it, then. I suggest you go back and review, because you are badly misinterpreting the ICJ ruling.

Next, i would like to ask if we are to presume from the above questions that you think:

A) Because the ICJ stated the U.S. was not responsible for all of the Contras' human rights violations, that

B) we should question the inclusion of the passage you cite above?

Because to me that seems like a very strange leap in logic.Stone put to sky 11:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I quote from the voted on statements "Finds that the United States of America, by producing in 1983 a manual entitled Operaciones sicologicas en guerra de guerrillas, and disseminating it to contra forces, has encouraged the commission by them of acts contrary to general principles of humanitarian law; but does not find a basis for concluding that any such acts which may have been committed are imputable to the United States of America as acts of the United States of America". They also stated, "It is for this reason that the Court does not have to determine whether the violations of humanitarian law attributed to the contras were in fact committed by them."Ultramarine 11:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry; you are selectively quoting from the ICJ. This has already been explained to you above. I am not going to go back into it. Either you are able to understand, or you're not. Regardless, your attempt to force this artificial and inaccurate interpretation is easily refuted.

The material remains, unaltered. Any attempt to delete it will be considered vandalism. Stone put to sky 11:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, no such counter-argument has been presented. The court made no judgement regarding whether HRV had occured because the US was not imputable for possible such violations.Ultramarine 11:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Imputable: To ascribe to or charge (a person) with an act or quality because of the conduct of another over whom one has control or for whose acts or conduct one is responsible. The court ruling is stating that The US broke the law by funding and providing materials including that document, however Bob killing Jane was in the end Bobs fault. I posted the definition since it seems to be ignored. --SixOfDiamonds 15:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The US was found guilty mainly for actions done directly by US personnel, such as laying mines. There is very little regarding the Contras in the final voted on verdict.Ultramarine 16:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Laying of mines, yes; odd how you fail to mention training of the Contras, teaching them torture techniques, funding the Contras, setting tactical and strategic goals along the lines of "low intensity warfare" (which means "kill and torture unarmed peasants but try to avoid the military"), and political protection in the UN and other international bodies.

The ICJ decision said considerably more than you are alleging here, and included the U.S. as the primary font of a long list of crimes. Stone put to sky 06:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it did not. Yes, the US supported the Contas, but there is very little mention of this in the voted on statements. The support of the Contras was illegal due to the obligation not to interfere in another state. The more serious statements, such as use of force, refered to actions done directly by US personnel. As per human rights violations by the Contras, see above. No reason to have the graphic quote.Ultramarine 08:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it did. You are simply wrong -- yet again, as you often seem to be, lately -- and please be advised that if you seek to delete material from the article based upon your deeply flawed interpretation of the ICJ ruling then your actions will be interpreted as vandalism.

Let me also remind you that you are performing WP:OR. There are plenty of sources which reference the ICJ ruling and unambiguously support the wording provided on the page. There will be no more discussion of this until you can come up with an authoritative legal or interpretive source that supports your perspective. And please be advised: if you seek to delete material from the article based upon your deeply flawed interpretation of the ICJ ruling then your actions will be interpreted as vandalism. Stone put to sky 09:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I have already quoted the ICJ ruling itself. Read Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. I will note further accusations of vandalism as violations of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks and Misplaced Pages:Civility.Ultramarine 09:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you are a vandal, but you are clearly not assuming good faith on behalf of the editors you disagree with. We are all part time editors here. It is unreasonable to propose to delete material because page numbers are lacking. It is also unreasonable to demand instant gratification for your demands. Especially on an article that you have not contributed to. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:Reliable sources."the responsibility for finding a source lies with the person who adds or restores the material""Unsourced or poorly sourced edits may be challenged and removed at any time." From the decision by the arbitration commitee in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Rktect "Cited references must relate to particular assertions, merely citing a book within which a person after exhaustive searching might find a source for information is not sufficient. Citations need to to be a specific passage on a specific page of an identified edition."Ultramarine 10:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Once again: Ultramarine, you are performing original research. Unless you can find a source which supports your interpretation of the ICJ ruling, the material will be re-worked and the quotation deleted.

If you try to delete other material in retaliation, your actions will be interpreted as vandalism.

If you try to force inclusion of this selective and clearly misleading quotation while excluding material that is more accurate, your actions will be considered vandalism.

There is no middle ground here: either find a source that supports your interpretation of that particular passage of the ICJ, re-work the material so that it provides an accurate sense of the ICJ ruling, or delete it.

And please remember that if you don't, i will - per the consensus of virtually every legal authority on the planet. Stone put to sky 04:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Nicaragua 2

We should add regarding the "Torture manuals" that the CIA claims that they were intended to "moderate" activities already being done.Ultramarine 11:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. Unless we have concrete evidence of what was actually being done at the time then there is no possible way for us to back up that statement.

Of course, if there were evidence that the U.S. and CIA knew what was being done at the time, that would of course implicate them as at least vicarious participants.

So feel free to do the research. i look forward to reading over your discoveries. Stone put to sky 11:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That is what the CIA claims. As per NPOV, views from both sides should be included.Ultramarine 11:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Claims" by the CIA are not allowed unless they are backed up with evidence. We have no evidence that the former methods of torture were in fact "worse" than the later ones the CIA tried to teach. Unless you can come up with a source that shows what methods of torture were used previously, then we must conclude that these claims by the CIA are questionable.

Otherwise you are guilty of WP:OR and WP:SYN.Stone put to sky 11:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of this article is claims, such as those by the Cuban government.Ultramarine 11:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I think the CIA side should be presented in whole. I will restate this, but I think the opposing side should be presented in each section by adding a criticism subsection. --SixOfDiamonds 15:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I am neutral on this, but the opposing views should also be presented.Ultramarine 16:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Opposing claims may only be included so long as they are backed up by properly sourced evidence and relevant to the text. Your sources do not deny that the U.S. participated in these acts; rather, they only explain the U.S. government's justification for why they felt their support for these methods of torture, genocide, rape and mass murder were justified. Stone put to sky 06:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Since we can cite Cuba's claims, we can also cite those of the opposing side. NPOV require the inclusion of the views of both sides.Ultramarine 08:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed we may; but only insofar as they are relevant to the article.

If you wish to include sources here disputing the events in question, then they must address the specific issue of State Terrorism, the specific incidents of state support, or the specific instances of terrorism mentioned. This is the standard to which you have held the other editors on this page, and this is the standard to which you will be now held. Stone put to sky 09:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Again read Misplaced Pages:POV forking. Attempts to violate NPOV is not allowed, articles must include the views of both sides. The article criticzes the US for the manuals, then the counter-view shold also be included.Ultramarine 09:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no violation of NPOV here; i know that because you -- one of the most vehement deletionists on this page -- are responsible for laying down the rules to which all material on this page must conform.

It was you who insisted that all initial statements must include reference to "State Terrorism" and attribute it to the United States; it was you who insisted that any discussion or attempts to elaborate upon definitions of "State Terrorism" and their relevance to actions by the U.S. would not be allowed; it was you who insisted that no material could be included unless it directly referenced the claims of state terrorism; and it was you who insisted that each and every fact on this page be sourced and referenced, no matter how trivial.

Obviously, with such standards we could not possibly be in violation of NPOV; similarly, since you clearly felt these standards were fair to impose on us, the other editors, you could not possibly feel that they are now restrictive and unfair.

Unless your material conforms to these three rigid guidelines, the material cannot be included. Stone put to sky 04:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Iran 1

"According to an article in the Asia Times, "Sponsoring terrorist activities inside Iran has been a consistent feature of US regional policy over the past quarter-century." This is from an unsourced commentary and seems to refer to US support of opposition in general inside Iran. A better source showing that the US have supported a group doing terrorism inside Iran needs to be quoted.Ultramarine 11:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine. That's easily enough done by looking up the articles by Seymour Hersh, which is who the Asia Times are quoting. Why don't you do that, Ultramarine? It'd be a good-faith gesture, and improve the article.

Of course, if you refuse to do so and instead simply attempt to delete the passage, we will interpret that as vandalism. Stone put to sky 11:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed before and no such evidence has been presented or found. It is those who make a claim that must provide the sources.Ultramarine 11:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry; i am sure you haven't tried very hard, because i clearly remember the article by Sy Hersh that made these claims. I believe they were in the New Yorker.

Again: either put up, or the material remains. Stone put to sky 11:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, that referred to that the US might send spies into other nations and that an anonymous editor thought that these may in the future maybe do sabotage. Again, it is those who make a claim that must provide the sources.Ultramarine 12:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The author of the article (M K Bhadrakumar) is the one stating the passage above. I am not sure what the drama is about? Its clear as day in the article that is used as a source. The author is a writer for the Asia Times, which is a WP:RS source ... I am not seeing the argument here. Please either of you fill me in. Thank you. --SixOfDiamonds 15:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

An unsourced commentary is not reliable, very little fact checking. As this is an extraordinary claims, very good sources are required. The commentary seems to refer to US support of opposition in general inside Iran. A better source showing that the US have supported a group doing terrorism inside Iran needs to be quoted.Ultramarine 16:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow. I'm actually contributing to this page.

Ultramarine, I think you're right in demanding that people who want to make allegations of state terrorism actually have to cite their sources specifically (No! Say it ain't so!). However, I have heard about what they're talking about.

Scott Ritter has spoken about the US supporting Mojahedin-e-Khalq.

Seymour Hersh alleges the US government is funding a variety of terror groups ina variety of ways

There's a RAW Story about the MEK.

And the Asia Times.

And it's pretty obvious by now the US government is funding Jundallah. MarkB2 00:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Mark. Those are all much appreciated. Stone put to sky 06:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see looking through these sources, there is no allegation that the US is supporting a violent group, only general support for opposition groups, sending spies etc. Please give a specific quotes supporting the allegation.Ultramarine 08:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

State funding and training of terrorist groups is universally defined as state terrorism. As Bush said. "From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime." ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 08:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Taking this at face value, please give a quote supporting at least the allegation that the US has done this in Iran.Ultramarine 09:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

"A Pakistani tribal militant group responsible for a series of deadly guerrilla raids inside Iran has been secretly encouraged and advised by American officials since 2005, U.S. and Pakistani intelligence sources tell ABC News."

"The US-funded terrorist rings have launched tremendous attacks against Iran, including the assassination of Iranian officials on early days after the victory of the Islamic Revolution." ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Iran 2

"Operation Ajax, which involved organised riots and the training of right-wing terrorist groups" None of the given sources mention "terrorist" groups.Ultramarine 11:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe ref# 100 does. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 11:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No. Page numbers must be provided for books in order to be verifiable.Ultramarine 12:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice if you would help in that task, rather than just barking orders at people. This book is widely available. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 12:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice it the article is correct. Giving sources is the responsibility of those making the claims.Ultramarine 12:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Source is given, a date missing from an article doesnt call for its removal, it calls for others to attempt to provide the information. I will have to hit the library it seems this weekend and waste valuable time due to these petty claims. I hope you then cease the arguing here over minors since you just WP:DONTLIKEIT in relation to the topic. --SixOfDiamonds 15:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I will allow some time before removing time.Ultramarine 16:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you allow some time for you to look it up yourself, instead of just wanting to delete? Unless you have some reason to believe that the source is not accurate I dont understand your tact in approaching it the way you are. It should be one of Fix, dont Delete. Only delete when its not fixable. Yes?Giovanni33 19:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It is those who make a claim that have the responsibility to provide a verifiable source.Ultramarine 19:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If Ultramarine does look it up and can't find it, what then? Will you accept his word, or will you then look it up? I'm just curious, because if you wouldn't be willing to accept his word (assuming he couldn't find it, which is honestly possible even if it is in the book), then it doesn't sound to me that you're genuinely interested in his contributions. (For the record, I doubt Ultramarine and I have the same general POV here. I just appreciate a NPOV. Also, I'm new here, so please forgive me if I go astray somewhere.) Benhocking 19:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If he can't veritfy it for whatever reason, and he believe it does not exist or is false, then thats one thing. But if he just says its not referenced, and deletes, without any intention or attempt to fix what may be an easily fixable problem, then thats another thing. I hope you see the difference between the two. And, yes, I always assume good faith, but that doesn't mean I won't try to see if I can't fix it, when he finds himeself unable to. I don't know why you say I don't sound like Im genuinely interested in his contributions. Can you please explain that statement? I'm interested in helping this article and am interested in everyones contributions--that is why I'm here talking to him.Giovanni33 20:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, I have no idea how big that book is. If the book is over a hundred pages, then it seems unreasonable to ask someone to look for it who isn't even sure it's there. On the other hand, someone already found it, so it seems to make most sense for that someone to say where they found it. It's hard enough to find something in a large book if you've already seen it once before. It's much, much harder to find something in a medium-to-large book if not only have you never seen it before, you've never even read the book! Obviously, Ultramarine is expressing a certain skepticism. Would you go looking through a book for something you weren't sure was even in there, instead of asking someone who's already found it to point you to which page it was on? I'm arguing this purely on general principles and not because of the subject matter at hand. If you look at other things I've edited, you'll notice that I'm mainly interested in academic issues. Benhocking 21:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I dont have a problem with skepticism, asking for the page number of the person citing, it, and not doing it yourself. I do have a problem with simply deleting it, without any effort made to fix it, directly or indirectly by asking the that person who might know, cite it. All I am saying is that the emphasis should be on fixing things, instead of deleting as a fix--unless thre is good reason to believe it can't be fixed.Giovanni33 21:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I am asking for a better citation right here and now.Ultramarine 22:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad. Just don't delete it, because I'm assuming its valid and the better citation will be provided in due time.Giovanni33 02:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Limited time before deletion. We want an accurate encyclopedia.Ultramarine 08:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Please cease barking orders, you are in no position to order anyone around. --SixOfDiamonds 20:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

No, Ultramarine; the citation will stand until either you go find the book and give us a clear citation showing that it does not, in fact, state what is asserted, or somebody else does.

If you cannot be bothered to go check on a source, then you will at least remain patient while others do. Stone put to sky 09:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:Reliable sources."the responsibility for finding a source lies with the person who adds or restores the material""Unsourced or poorly sourced edits may be challenged and removed at any time."Ultramarine 10:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I dispute that the material is poorly sourced.... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The only supposed source mentioning "terrorist" groups is a book without page numbers. From the decision by the arbitration commitee in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Rktect "Cited references must relate to particular assertions, merely citing a book within which a person after exhaustive searching might find a source for information is not sufficient. Citations need to to be a specific passage on a specific page of an identified edition."Ultramarine 16:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That is clearly not the case. There are over a hundred sources. Most are articles and don't require page numbers. Most of the cited books have page numbers. We are really only talking about a minority of the numerous sources. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I am talking about the specific claim regarding Operation Ajax, as per my first edit in this section.Ultramarine 10:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Western Europe 1

"an attempted coup in France (1961)" Seems to refer to some very obscure conpiracy theory. The given source is " Pierre Abramovici and Gabriel Périès, La Grande Manipulation, éd. Hachette, 2006" What is this? A book? Then page numbers would be required. Regardless, extraordinary claims require extrordinary evidence, so more sources should be added if claiming this is an established fact as per the current title of this article.Ultramarine 11:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry; in France, it's a widely accepted account of the post-war situation. A few folks here can read french, and believe it or not just because something isn't written in english doesn't mean that it's an "extraordinary" claim.

This is a widely respected academic history of the post-war situation in France. If you want to argue against it, then please come up with some sourced material. Otherwise, the material stays.

And, as always: any attempt to remove it against the established consensus will be interpreted as vandalism. Stone put to sky 11:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Your unsourced personal claims are not a reliable source in Misplaced Pages.Ultramarine 11:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

If you don't want to trust his word, you could try reading the sources. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 11:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It is those who make claim that must provide the sources.Ultramarine 11:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The sources are given. You refuse to read them. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 11:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources have been provided. It's not our responsibility to buy the book for you, prop open your eyelids, and give you shock therapy until you've completed it. Stone put to sky 11:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, in order to verifiably, page numbers must be provided for books. This has been confirmed in arbitration cases. Regardless, again, extraordinary claims require extrordinary evidence, so more sources should be added if claiming this is an established fact as per the current title of this article.Ultramarine 12:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Page numbers can be added to those few references which lack them. However, I advise you to also actually read the sources. It will do you good and you will be able to argue with us more effectively. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 12:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Unless done, this source is unverifiable. Those who make the claims must provide the sources. I repeat, extraordinary claims require extrordinary evidence, so more sources should be added if claiming this is an established fact as per the current title of this article.Ultramarine 12:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice if you would help in that task, rather than just barking orders at people. This book is widely available. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 12:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice it the article is correct. Giving sources is the responsibility of those making the claims.Ultramarine 12:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The sources are given. The lack of page numbers on some references is a minor issue which can be corrected in time. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative process. Please help out by adding some page numbers yourself. Thank you. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 12:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The claimed source is currently unverifiable. Extraordinary claims require extrordinary evidence, so more sources should be added if claiming this is an established fact as per the current title of this article. It would be nice it the article is correct. Giving sources is the responsibility of those making the claims.Ultramarine 12:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You seem unwilling to help, even in theory. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 12:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You all are acting like children. The source is verifiable, go search to see if the book exists. The source itself is then verifiable as existing. Your issue is then if the source is stating XYZ due to a lack of page numbers. While I agree page numbers would be more helpful, if there are no quotes being used, you cannot really reference a page to explain an overarching theme of a book. I would also be interested in reading the details of those arbitration cases. Please provide some links. Thank you. --SixOfDiamonds 15:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Rktect "Cited references must relate to particular assertions, merely citing a book within which a person after exhaustive searching might find a source for information is not sufficient. Citations need to to be a specific passage on a specific page of an identified edition."Ultramarine 16:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, after reading over it, it seems you are overly stating the point. Not sure what lead you to that case, but it was regarding someone adding false information or general sources, not sources that actually contain the items. I believe this is bordering on Wikilawyering. Nonetheless I will attempt to find some page numbers for you. --SixOfDiamonds 20:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Cuba 1

"In 2006, a former board member of CANF, Jose Antonio Llama testified that leaders of the foundation had created a paramilitary group to carry out destabilizing acts in Cuba. The foundation’s general board of directors didn’t know the details of the paramilitary group, which acted autonomously, Llama said. He added that current CANF board chairman Jorge Mas Santos was never told of the plan. The plans failed after Llama and four other exiles were arrested in the United States territory of Puerto Rico in 1997 on charges of conspiracy to assassinate Castro."

No involvement by the CANF and the US, so should be removed. Should if anything be cited as evidence againt state terrorism, since the it was the US who stopped the assassintion.Ultramarine 11:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, this is just so silly.

First, it has three different sources, one of which is from the UN. Second, it clearly documents the relationship between Mel Martinez and a famed anti-castro terrorist organization.

This is yet again another instance of supporting information that has been included to clarify statements that appear elsewhere in the article; in this particular instance, that "Granma, the official newspaper of Cuba, also reported that U.S. senator Mel Martinez was meeting with Cuban American terrorists and sponsoring them via CANF."

You have complained that we have cuban sources in the article; but here we have one source from the Miami-Herald and another from UN testimony, and you are complaining about it being "irrelevant".

Sorry; it's relevance as primary source material in support of an originating thesis is indisputable.

Once again: any attempt to delete this material will be considered vandalism. Stone put to sky 11:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Granma is not a reliable source. None of the other sources claims that US government was involved. The plot was stopped in US territory.Ultramarine 11:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Says who? How is the official newspaper of a nation not a reliable source? --SixOfDiamonds 15:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

A state-controlled censored newspaper is not reliable.Ultramarine 15:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Your belief they are censored is not valid. Further a state controlled document is then also not valid. So are you arguing that we should remove all documents from government offices? I doubt you are. Please cease attempts to brand anything Venezuelan or Cuban as not meeting WP:RS, or have the folks at WP:RS rule on that. Thank you. --SixOfDiamonds 15:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

See Reporters without borders. Documents from dictatorships are not reliable. Venezuela is not a dictatorships (yet), so is more reliable.Ultramarine 15:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You are imposing your own POV about what is a dicatorship and what is not, and basing that POV to determine reliablity of the source? That only produced the expected bias of the filtering system it employs. And that is not NPOV. That is like me saying that reports from big corporations are not reliable because big corpoations are elitist, undemocratic institutions, or that capitalist media can not be considered reliable by WP, and only sources from socialist democracies like Cuba, can be considered reliable. Obviously, this is not valid, but is the reasoning your using here.Giovanni33 22:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You can look at any respected human rights group, freedom of expression or of the press does not exist in Cuba, while it does in the US. However, I will agree on one pont. If this article was called "Allegations of...", we could list this as another one of Cuba's allegations of state terrorism.Ultramarine 22:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Granma is a valid source. That's all there is to it.

We are sorry that you have a prejudicial attitude towards the content presented there, but that's beside the point. It is a valid source, and the material remains. Stone put to sky 07:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is a state-censored newspaper a reliable source? But again, it could maybe be included as an allegation.Ultramarine 08:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We are sorry that you are prejudiced against Granma as a source. Nevertheless, it remains valid and the material remains. Stone put to sky 09:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Repeating a claim without giving any evidence does not help your case. Again, you can look at any respected human rights group, freedom of expression or of the press does not exist in Cuba, while it does in the US.Ultramarine 09:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

That is true, but before throwing stones in glass houses, you should consider that the US is not an ideal place for journalism either. RsF puts the US at 53rd place, joint with Tonga and Botswana, for freedom of the press. Perhaps you should take the output of US media with a healthy pinch of salt too. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 09:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Still in the upper third, while Cuba is 165 out of 168.Ultramarine 10:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. But if say, Botswana denied state terrorism against Tonga, would you take their denials at face value, or would you treat it with a healthy skepticism?... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Botswana is one of the best functioning and succesful democracies in Africa, so I would certainly consider their newspapers to be fairly free and reliable.Ultramarine 10:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

So no healthy skepticism then, no? You are very trusting. I live in Ireland (pos #1 ), and I'm skeptical of the Irish press. Its what keeps them honest. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 10:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Ultramarine, you are obviously prejudiced against Granma as a source. That doesn't concern us, though, because it remains a valid source and the material remains. Stone put to sky 10:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

All reputable human rights organizations are find Cuba's newspapers to be censored.Ultramarine 10:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Whether it is or not is beside the point. Even an allegation made by a state controlled source is still an allegation. Its perhaps more notable in the fact that it is the states' official view. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 12:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I hardly think that it's "more notable", Seabhcan; that's precisely the point. If we cannot count on Granma to communicate the Cuban Government's legal position and official findings, then who can we count on?

The CIA?

(P.S. -- hey, Seabhcan -- how do you pronounce that damn jumble you call a name, anyway?) Stone put to sky 13:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Its something like "Shaw-kawn" ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 13:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Granma, there is not evidence to give. The source meets all qualifications of WP:RS WP:V. There is nothing in either of those that says Cuban publications are not valid, or that views of the Cuban government are not WP:RS, if that is the argument. This is absurd the bickering over Cuba as a source in any form, and unless someone posts something other then, they do not have freedom of the press, which is not a valid argument, this seems to be closed. PS no I do no thave to prove the New York Times is valid, you have to prove it is not. Every source added does not come with a declaration from the author that they were not lying and fully backed by the president of the publishing company/network, then certified by the U.N. Stop asking people to prove nothing. You have an accusation, its that it does not meet criteria, then back it up and prove it. Stating a group says its really the government stating XYZ does not then make it invalid as the government would be a larger WP:RS source, and further a better source. --SixOfDiamonds 20:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I have already agreed that this particular allegation is really no different than all the others by the Cuban government.Ultramarine 12:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

State terrorism vs. State-sponsored coups

I don't think that state-sponsored coups can necessarily be labeled terrorism - unless part of their aim can reasonably be considered to be inspiring terror. Perhaps these can be moved to their own article, and have a link to that article added in the See Also section?

Agree.Ultramarine 17:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• I do not agree that there is clear consensus on the blanking of the massive cited section that ultramarine and company have been deleting. --Kukini 22:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. Currently above, we are working out consensus regarding the sources in contention, and progress is being made. Editors should respect this process and not force massive deletions by edit waring. Thanks for restoring the material.Giovanni33 22:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

While i admit that a coup in and of itself does not necessarily qualify as an act of state-sponsored terrorism (the coup against Idi Amin was a blessing, right?), coups that are sponsored by a foreign government against a democratically-elected or populist-government are clearly a) political violence, b) illegal, and c) intended to force a political accommodation against the agreed upon will of the people.

These are the essence of all definitions of "terrorism" so far posted, in each and every point. Moreover, in the case of Guatemala the relevance of the planning of the coup is substantiated by the assassination lists which were drawn up and perhaps acted upon as well as the emergence of "death squads" and other "political enforcers" in the aftermath. The realization of these atrocities was contingent upon the coup itself.

I find it hard to believe that you would seriously argue that a foreign-sponsored coup against a popular government -- which is the epitome of state-sponsored political violence against a people -- does not qualify as an act of state terrorism. Stone put to sky 06:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The good news is what you believe is irrelevant, and so is what I believe. What is relevant is if a reliable source calls a particular coup "state-sponsored terrorism". Anything else is original research. - Merzbow 07:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Perfect. Since we have such a source there is no need for any further talk about it.

Thank you, Merzbow, for putting an end to the discussion. I look forward to further contributions by you in the future. Stone put to sky 07:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Please stop

Mass blanking of properly sourced text without consensus. That would be great. Badagnani 05:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. As some of you may have figured out, editors have divergent views about some of the material included in this article. Accordingly, deleting significant content without first raising the issue on this page is inappropriate and borders on underhanded sabotage. This may not be true for all articles but it is true here.

Also, deleting material in a sneaky way is pointless because people will notice, restore your deletions and you will look like you were trying to pull a fast one and not acting in good faith. If you have a deletion, post it here with your argument for why it does not belong. --NYCJosh 22:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the burden should be on the people who want to include the material to justify it. Tom Harrison 15:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It is on the people who want to include the material, up to the point that they add sources for the material. If the material is sourced, but the sources are contested, do not blank, but discuss, or add other sourced material that presents a different view. Sancho 15:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there a guideline that says that? Tom Harrison 15:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes and Misplaced Pages:Editing policy#Major_changes are the two that come to mind. Sancho 15:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We also have policies like WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:OR, which enjoin us to remove nonsense like cites to blog posts and the pages of 9/11 conspiracy theorists like Chossudovsky. In fact, WP:V says this - "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." So does rock break scissors, or does paper cover rock? The point is that "my policy trumps your policy" chest-beating exercises get us nowhere. Simply make sure that the material in the article conforms to policy and it won't be removed or argued about. - Merzbow 18:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm new here, so I could totally be misinterpreting the various guidelines y'all throw about, but as I understand them the gist is that (a) People shouldn't be deleting sections without discussing first, even if those sections are not sourced properly (unless there are other good reasons to delete as detailed in the afore mentioned guide), and (b) People shouldn't be adding back those deleted sections without sourcing them properly first - even if they were deleted improperly. These two positions can be reconciled, I believe, through another Misplaced Pages concept. Benhocking 19:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course we can then run into arguments about whether a particular bit of material conforms to policy. In cases like this it is best to discuss before removing. Unfortunately on a topic like this it becomes very difficult to evaluate whether some material does or doesn't conform, which to me underlines the importance of discussion. I agree with you on the futility of setting one policy against another in these discussions. --John 18:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The dispute resolution policy and editing policy guide you how to resolve disagreement when it comes to the application of the other policies, and there's certainly disagreement at this page :-). Sancho 18:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

New people here always try to use rational means to thread the needle. However, i would like to point out that Merzbow, Ultramarine, Harrison, Morton Devonshire and the present-not-in-name-only MONGO have all made it clear that their ultimate goal is the deletion of the entire page, all content, without discrimination, always.

For three years, now, it's been this way. They are not going to change. Whatever reasons they come up with now for deleting material, once having managed to get portions or whatever taken away they will begin to work on the next batch.

Chossudovsky is a respected Canadian political commentator, editor of a widely regarded newsletter, and a tenured professor of political science; his commentary on the 9/11 incidents may be controversial, but they are well within the realm of appropriate academic speculation. Isaac Newton was a fierce proponent of Alchemy; that doesn't change the fact that gravity is still a relevant theory. Giordano Bruno believed he could practice witches, demons, and sorcery, but doesn't change the fact that he was a significant proponent of the Copernican model. There is no good reason to delete Chossudovsky's material.

Similarly, there is no evidence of violations of WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:V or WP:RS, and the only portion of the article that needs to be cleaned up at the moment is the badly misleading, highly selective quote from the ICJ in the Nicaragua section.

Now, there are two ways to go about something like that: either include an entire section on the ICJ, or give a brief -- one- or two-sentence summary -- of its findings, or simply link to the existing Nicaragua vs. United States wiki page and allow that to do all the talking. The cadre of deletionists, however, will not allow this; they insist upon inclusion of their misleading, selective quotation; only their misleading, selective quotation; and nothing but their own distorted, misleading commentary.

Please notice, however, that in addition to such improprieties there are others far more serious: the above commentators insist (based upon principles listed below) that there must be evidence provided to support a general statement like "The United States has been accused by numerous legal scholars, governments, political figures and human rights groups of funding, training, and harboring individuals and groups who engage in terrorism". Now, regardless of how patently and obviously true such a statement is, the editors here are enjoined to "show sources" that it is indeed the case.

When we do, the sources we provide are systematically attacked as "not authoritative enough" -- even though they are all from published, professional journalists, scholars, human rights groups, political figures, and legal scholars! This is the sort of thing we constantly go through on this page: a simple statement that says nothing more than that many people around the world are talking about these ideas is challenged as "not being sourced" or "not having proof", and then when proof is provided the complaint changes, and the sampling of a large spectrum of people is rejected as not being authoritative enough.

On this one sentence in particular, the deletionist editors here have work tirelessly to try and whittle down the sources and re-work the introduction to say "Noam Chomsky says that the United States has been accused of...."

That is not editing in good faith; what would be an easily accepted statement in other articles becomes a point of contention, here. What would be considered nitpicking and bad-faith editing in other articles is elevated here to policy.

I and most of the other contributing editors here have no problem with people wanting to make this page better; however, many here have made it clear they do not want to see this subject treated in any way other than flat denial. This group has further clarified themselves by holding 6 AfDs on this article, not including their posturing (as above), with the phantastical straw polls and mutual back-slapping and so on.

Currently, the other editors here are doing nothing more than holding them to their own standards; artificial and arbitrary standards have been imposed upon contributing editors by this handful of protesters. I personally can testify that, for over two years, every attempt to communicate, reason, or negotiate with them has been met with scorn and disdain. Their insistence has always been that:

A) All formal, predicating content must be related to and include a phrase approximating a claim of "State Terrorism by the United States"

B) All supporting material and any statements must be sourced in every detail, no matter how small or trivial

C) All material must be directly floating condemnations of State Terrorism, or directly referencing a specific set of supporting facts within such a statement.

Each of those rules in itself is already extreme and, by the standards of other Misplaced Pages pages, unreasonable. They are made many times more frustrating and aggravating when applied with the vigor that the deletionists here insist upon. Moreover, the result has been to steer this page into a list of atrocities with which the U.S. is directly linked. I ask: what else could it be, with rules like that?

My point, in case it's not clear, is this: it is not the contributing editors who have created the current form of this page. It is the deletionists, and their intransigent, obstinate insistence upon these artificial standards of quality.

Now, what has become a clear pattern over these last few AfDs is this: an AfD is called, and that gets the attention of the Wiki-ops. They send someone over -- in this case, i believe it's Sancho? -- who in all good faith jumps in and starts to try and make heads or tails of this morass. Suggestions are tabled, and attempts are made to try and massage the consensus here into something more cooperative.

Unfortunately, what the advisers and arbitrators rarely realize -- or at least, rarely realize until they've worked at it for a good while -- is that this page is really just bickering over a single issue: its right to exist.

There are several contributors here who will balk and resist at any and every attempt to expand, hone, or in any way improve the content of this page. Their only desire is to see all the content deleted -- and if you don't believe me, then go back and look at the six failed AfDs they've participated in. Or review the talk-page history. Or review the history of their edits.

This group rarely introduces content; when they do, the portions posted are poorly enough edited and suffer from such terrible grammar and syntax that they almost qualify as vandalism. Any attempt to change or clean up said passages is met with obstinate resistance, even when the material is clearly irrelevant.

Finally, the material they present rarely -- if ever -- adheres to their own, pre-established standards, and when requests are made that it be tightened up they are vehemently rejected; those requests must then become demands, and those are usually rejected; finally, those demands must simply become deletes, and when that happens we are offered a quid pro quo: either allow the material to remain, or a new round of deletions will begin again on the main page.

This happened most recently with Ultramarine, and if everyone will look just above they will see the offer clearly made: either we allow Ultramarine's content to remain, or he will begin to delete material. The implication is clearly that he won't delete the material if his material is allowed to stay, and i ask: is there any more clear violation of Misplaced Pages standards? His offer is unambiguous, and goes something like this: "If you allow my content to stay and do not challenge its validity, relevance, or authenticity, then i will not delete material that consensus has already established as valid, relevant, and authentic. But if you do not adhere to my demands, then i will begin to delete this material, regardless of how the community might protest."

In other words: you allow my poor content to remain, and i won't vandalize the page.

And indeed, what do we see, now, these last three or four days?

Continual attempts by Ultramarine to delete large portions of the article, against the established consensus and in contravention to virtually every wiki-policy yet authored. We had to freeze the page to stop him.

Sincerely -- Stone put to sky 04:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Please limit your future statements to some reasonable length, our time is valuable. There are no respected political commentators who hold that the 9/11 attacks were staged. I'm going to be dragged out of Misplaced Pages feet-first before cranks like Chossudovsky are considered reliable sources for anything other than their own statements. - Merzbow 07:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Merzbow is right. When the flag comes down, this stuff (http://www.globalresearch.ca - A personal site run by 9/11 conspiracy theorist Michel Chossudovsky; http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans - A non-notable political blog called "What's Left"; http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html - Personal website of a geography and Native American Studies professor nobody's ever heard of; http://www.cetim.ch/fr/interventions_details.php?iid=207 - Website of a French activist group nobody's ever heard of) has got to go. All of it violates WP:RS.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 09:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

No, dear fellows, i must inform you that you are wrong.

First, the citations are nothing more than sources demonstrating that the statement "numerous have accused the U.S. of state terrorism". The point of contention in this statement has always been the plural "commentators" and the adjective "numerous", which you and several others here have consistently tried to re-write as "Noam Chomsky". Your objections were that the statement was not sourced.

For the purposes of our current requirements, then, these sources are more than adequate: they demonstrate that there are official political, legal and bureaucratic organizations that have officially taken this stance; they demonstrate that professional commentators around the world have taken this stance; they demonstrate that legal scholars and human rights groups have taken this stance; and finally they demonstrate that academics within this area of expertise have taken this stance. Now, since it was y'all who demanded documentation on a trivial statement, we have given it. Now that you have it, you're not allowed to change the rules midstream and pretend like trivial facts require extraordinary documentation.

Secondly, i really don't care what you think or don't think about CETIM. It's currently on permanent advisory to the UN (as noted above); it's a formal research institute publicly funded; and it has a special research section devoted to International Law. It will most certainly stay. Finally: since y'all demanded documentation on a trivial statement, we have given it. Now that you have it, you're not allowed to rewrite your own rules and pretend like trivial facts require authoritative documentation.

Thirdly, the Zoltan Grossman site is widely cited as source material; it is published research by an academic well within his area of expertise; it provides clearly cited sources; and finally, it was published by a widely read publication. Say what you like, but that clearly qualifies as valid source material for wikipedia. In addition, if you can't wrap your brain around the idea of a professional "Native American Studies'" researcher as having relevance to this topic, then you are really out of touch with what is being built here. And lastly, i'd like to remind you that it was you and your comrades who contended this trivial statement; you all wanted documentation and we have given it. Now that it's there you're not allowed to change the rules and pretend like your whim is the rule for this page. The source stays.

Fourth, the "non-notable" political blog is the personal website of a published journalist writing in a formal and official manner about his area of expertise. Moreover, it is offered up only as evidence that there are, indeed, numerous commentators who are or have accused the U.S. of state terrorism. That's all we need to qualify that particular statement. Since y'all demanded documentation, we have given it. Now that you have it, you're not allowed to change the rules midstream and pretend like you didn't ask for it.

Finally, there is no reason to delete material simply because it comes from Chossudovsky; you will need to do better than that. Chossudovsky is a widely published political analyst who is editor and founder of a news and commentary site published in two different languages, with regular readership on three continents, and whose authors include a long list of high-profile academics, journalists, authors and ex-bureaucrats. He is a tenured professor and head of two different grass-roots political groups, both of which deal (if i'm not mistaken) with issues of international law and human rights. He is a far, far cry from a mere "conspiracy theorist". Whatever is said about him on other webpages is -- as in the words of our beloved Ultramarine -- utterly irrelevant to this page. Here we do things according to our own consensus, and -- as Ultramarine is so fond of saying -- if other pages want to make that mistake then fine. They may. For our page, however, you will need to do better than ad hominem attacks against Chossudovsky to justify deletion.

Moreover, since it was you, Morty -- along with your cadre of fellow deletionists -- who demanded that the most trivial and uncontestable statement on the page be backed up by sources, you now have no leg to stand on by decrying that a trivial statement is backed up by unremarkable sources. The content of the statement is clear: there are numerous people and groups around the world who have condemned actions by the United States as instances of State Terrorism. Regardless of how deeply you might object to that statement -- and it is clear from the repeated attempts you have made to delete this page that they are deep and fierce -- nevertheless, the statement clearly is substantiated by factual, incontrovertible sources which -- in every way! -- satisfy wikipedia's guidelines for valid references.

Unless you can come up with better reasons than these, the references stay. Stone put to sky 11:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

No, they won't. We can bring this up to any additional level of dispute resolution you want, and you won't succeed. 9/11 conspiracists will not be used as sources in articles about (more) mainstream political issues. - Merzbow 16:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

He has been published so this isnt up for debate.

• Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

And here is your list:

• Zed Books
• Columbia University School of International Public Affairs
• Institute for International Co-operation, University of Ottawa
• University of Ottawa Press
• Faculty of Social Sciences, Dept. of Economics, University of Ottawa
• Universidad Catolica de Chile, Instituto de Economia
• Madhyam Books
• Palgrave Macmillan

All on international politics and economics. --74.73.16.230 00:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

On what grounds are you prepared to exclude all such researchers from being cited in ALL subjects? Do you have a WP rule handy for that one? --NYCJosh 22:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. WP:RS and WP:Verify.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 23:10, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

See above. Thank you. --74.73.16.230 00:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

This subject has achieved no mainstream recognition as far as I can tell. Certainly that is due to his delusional conspiracy theories. Luckily, we have ArbCom precedent for how to deal with persons like this: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche - "Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Misplaced Pages article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles." Those claiming the Pentagon, the CIA, and the Klingons brought down the Twin Towers against all scientific evidence and all reliable researchers and news organizations are surely just as nuts. - Merzbow 23:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

What subject? The one with over 100 sources ... ? Whats la Rouche have to do with anything? Please try to stay on topic. Thank you. --74.73.16.230 00:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

And what do the twin towers have to do with improving this article? --John 18:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Opposing views 2

As per WP:NPOV, the article must also include opposing views. Some proposals can be found here: User:Ultramarine/Sandbox. Suggestions and discussion would be welcome, here or on the talk page of that user page.Ultramarine 12:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

We have no problem allowing opposing views, Ultramarine; however, any sources you introduce must adhere to the same standards you have set for the page:

• They must mention, specifically, the idea of "State Terrorism by the United States"
• Every last fact must directly refer back to the central thesis, and be properly sourced
• There must be no original research, no references back to commonly accepted definitions of any kind, and no synthesized analysis of any sort.
• All sources and comments introduced to the page must refer directly to events therein discussed, or else you must create a new section to house them.

So long as all additions to the page adhere to these rules -- which have been set and enforced by you -- then we will be happy to accept them.

Of course, if they fail on any count then they will not be admissible. Stone put to sky 12:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of the sources in this article do not mention "state terrorism" No double standard please.Ultramarine 12:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

All of the sources in this article either contain a statement that clearly uses the words "state terrorism" or directly reference such an article. Insofar as you wish to include any content, you may either use existing sources which mention "state terrorism" or you may supply your own. If, however, you are unable to manage either of these then the content is clearly inadmissible.

A cursory look at the sandbox:

Source one does not mention state terrorism; it is inadmissible

Source two does not address the events stated within the article, specifically: Guatemala, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, etc. However, if you would like to start a new section -- and can find an appropriate title for it, something other than "opposing views", because this page is not a POV article but instead merely an encyclopedic catalog -- then this source is admissible.

However, any mention of the Congo or other places must be excluded; they are irrelevant to the article, and irrelevant to the argument being made.

Section 3 -- responding to random rapes and murders by U.S. soldiers -- is irrelevant to the article, since it has been made clear throughout the article that it deals solely and exclusively with acts promoted and approved as U.S. policy.

The third source -- and final paragraph of the sandbox introduction -- is inadmissible because it is a straw-man argument; nobody here is blaming the U.S. for 'every human rights violation', nor is anyone making the argument that elements of the U.S. government -- and its people -- didn't oppose these actions. These arguments are completely outside the scope of the article.

If you would like to relax the standards you and your friends have imposed upon the article, then it would probably be possible for us to find some way to incorporate them into the article. However, as things stand source three does not mention "state terrorism" by name, but instead is dealing with human rights abuses and arguments that are strictly straw-man to the content of this article.

The Cuba subsection is inadmissible because it is clearly POV language. It is not within the scope or power of Misplaced Pages to judge the authenticity of official government releases, and any presumption to that effect is clearly inadmissible POV language.

This statement:

This statement is, first of all, clearly false; it is not merely Chomsky's personal interpretation, but the interpretation of a great many scholars around the world. Second, it is inadmissible because the claim that the judgment in favor of Nicaragua is interpretable as confirmation of state terrorism is clearly sourced to Chomsky and only a few other commentators. It is not necessary to call attention to this fact in the text of the entry; that is what footnotes and sources are for. To attempt to portray this as a minority -- or a majority -- viewpoint is original research and cannot be included on the page without sourcing.

We have no problem with allowing your fourth source (second paragraph, Nicaragua section); however, such selective editing is clearly misleading and deceptive. The Nicaragua judgment did not find the U.S. innocent of the Contra's actions; it merely ruled that, on the basis of the evidence, it did not have enough information to rule one way or the other. Consequently, this statement says only that the Court cannot rule in favor of Nicaragua's charges -- not that the U.S. is innocent of them.

This is a fine point of law; however, the vast bulk of the Nicaragua vs U.S. judgment clearly enumerates a long list of acts undertaken by the U.S. against Nicaragua for which the ICJ found them culpable and in fault. Most -- if not all -- of these actions are clearly considered to be acts of state terrorism. If we are not going to list all of the relevant passages, i do not see that we should list only one; therefore, my suggestion would be for you to eliminate the quotation and compose a short, one- or two-sentence summary of the point you want to make and source it with links to the ICJ judgment and the Nicaragua vs United States page.

Guatemala: most of what you present there is already included in the article in summarized form. There is no need to fluff it up with lots of irrelevant prose. However, there is some stuff clearly outside the scope of this article:

We don't care about when or why the U.S. called off its relationship with Guatemala unless those sources clearly deal with and mention issues of State Terrorism. Your passages don't.

There is no supporting source for your comments about the CIA and its "ameliorating" effects upon Guatemalan violence. Moreover, it doesn't mention anything at all about State Terrorism.

Finally, your section on SOA will be perfectly acceptable -- provided you create a new section for it, find something that specifically mentions "State Terrorism" and attributes it to the United States, and then source all details therein.

As you can see: i, at least, am willing to work with you. I will not, however, cut you any slack on these standards you have introduced to the page. If you are an honorable man then you will understand my resistance to indulging you a double standard; i trust you will take my observation to heart -- as i have done yours -- and do the necessary investigative research to bring your material up to snuff. Stone put to sky 13:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Lets start by discussing your first objection. Most of the sources in this article do not mention "state terrorism" nor do they link to such an article. Not that a webpage linking to another webpage is evidence for that the first webpage mentions "state terrorism". No double standard please.Ultramarine 13:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

RE: User:Ultramarine/Sandbox

The first and second paragraph has nothing to do with terrorism. It simply is a justification of US support for dictatorships, and explanation of why democracy is better. In regards to the democracy section, I support these staments, but it is better to be in another article.

The third paragraph says: "Chomsky claims that the United States is a leading terrorist nation." It then states: "However, actual empirical studies have found that democracies, including the United States, have killed much fewer civilians than dictatorships." This is true, but this does not mean that the US has or has not committed terrorism. Terrorism is not the same as the number of civilians killed.

Third paragraph: "Media may falsely give the impression that Chomsky's claim is correct." POV. The rest of the paragraph has nothing to do with terrorism either, just more justification of US foreign policy.

The fourth paragraph has little to do with terrorism also. It is also factually incorrect. Many of the actions of the CIA at the Nicaragua v US case were state supported and sanctioned terrorism.

The fifth paragraph is a broad statment "The US is often blamed for every single human rights violations in nations" not, to my knowledge, supported by the reference. This is not an article about the positive aspects of the US governmment, there are several articles like this, which I am sure you have built. Instead it focuses on the terrorism conducted by the US.

The Cuba section disregards the non-Cuba sources. (See footnotes 36-68--32 footnotes for that section alone)

The Nicaragua section ignores that there were 16 finding of the court, and typcially, only focuses on one, the positive one. This one paragraph is not the complete finding of the court.

Further, which is ignored in this white wash article, the court found the US guilty of "unlawful use of force" which is the very defintion of terrorism (look it up). Through out the judgement the judges mention terrorism, as do the witnesses.

The Guatemala section states: "The United States cannot be blamed for all the deaths in the long civil war." No one is.

Your own source: http://www.ciponline.org/iob.htm#Allegations

In the course of our review, we learned that in the period since 1984, several CIA assets were credibly alleged to have ordered, planned, or participated in serious human rights violations such as assassination, extrajudicial execution, torture, or kidnapping while they were assets--and that the CIA was contemporaneously aware of many of the allegations.

Granted this is not terrorism per se...

The School of the Americas section ignores the long bloody history of school of America's graduates. If I recall, it also ignores how many of the students and facilty see the training as a joke. The Torture Manualss from the School of America are also ignored. Not surprising, because the source is the SOA itself.

My question is: How many deaths can the US be blamed for? In this fairytale view of history, it looks like the answer is "none".

I appreciate your efforts. Please avoid blanket statments and narrow your research to terrorism only, especially in the first paragraph. 69.152.139.102 23:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I have modfied the text somewhat and may do more in the future. However, I note that most of the sources in this article do not mention "state terrorism" or even terrorism. No double standard please.Ultramarine 01:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no double standard here, Ultramarine, except for the one you are trying to beg for yourself.

Once again, Ultramarine: all of the sources in the article have been provided to either back up statements that were made within an article that clearly references "state terrorism by the u.s.", or because they are articles which make a direct statement to that effect.

All sources provided by you must conform to these two stipulations to be admitted to the article. If they do not, then you may not post them to the article. Obviously, you must now simply do more work and more research to find some that conform to these stipulations -- which you have imposed upon the article -- because the content you are currently offering up here clearly does not meet those standards. Stone put to sky 04:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, most of the sources do not mention "state terrorism" or even terrorism. That they instead "make a direct statement to that effect" is of course merely the opinion of the anonynmous Misplaced Pages editor who added these sources to the article. No double standard please.Ultramarine 08:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Title

A move has been proposed at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves to move this to Allegations of state terrorism by the United States. Now that the afd has closed with a recommendation to pursue other editorial venues, such a move back to the former consensus title can hopefully be discussed. The proposed title is a far better solution because it is not an point of view condemnation, would match the other title in the state terrorism series, Allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka, and would follow the NPOV titles for other contentious articles like Allegations of Israeli apartheid. The United States has never been definitively condemned as having engaged in terrorist acts, and the least the article can do is have the title reflect that. --MichaelLinnear 04:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the United States has been -- repeatedly -- and the sources are here on this page to prove it.

I'm sorry, but there is no consensus here -- and never has been -- for a change to the name "Allegations of State Terrorism...." That is weasel-language, and i am unconcerned if Jewish people in the United States are outraged by the fact that people want to point out Israeli Apartheid and protest it by defacing wikipedia content; the fact is that there are many, many people in the world who use that phrase -- as well as "State Terrorism" -- and it deserves mention.

The only reason this page is so long and detailed is because of the protesters here; for my part, i would have been happy with a three- or four-paragraph treatment of the subject, but because of the artificial and exaggerated content standards forced upon the editors of this page, it has grown into what it is now.

Open up an Encyclopedia Britannica and you will not find "Allegations of Armenian Genocide", "Allegations of Holocaust", "Allegations of Fascist Atrocities", "Allegations of Apartheid", or "Allegations of Torture at Guantanamo Bay"; in each case there are many people who challenge these ideas. In each case, however, the ideas themselves are listed under a simple declarative heading.

This article should -- and will, per Misplaced Pages policy -- follow the same pattern. Stone put to sky 04:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It's "allegations" because I can count on half of one hand the number of truly reliable sources for this allegation, once you weed out the self-published cranks, the bloggers, and the amateur 'ziners working in the garage. - Merzbow 06:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention allegatins by dictatorships like Cuba.Ultramarine 08:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Wonderful, this article has now been moved to Allegations of breaches of international law by the United States, which is really what it was about in the first place, and what the sources supported. And now it has been moved back, but this is a move that I could support. --MichaelLinnear 06:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I have moved it back to the original title. The move Morton Devonshire made had nothing even remotely approaching consensus, and I feel it was inadvisable to make such a drastic move right after the deletion discussion. Many, many people weighed in on the AfD, and without question the page title that most folks agreed on (from both sides) was Allegations of State terrorism by the United States. One editor proposed Allegations of breaches of international law by the United States and Morton Devonshire wholeheartedly endorsed it (and I partially endorsed it if many editors jumped on the bandwagon) but then no one else was interested in that move or else objected wholeheartedly. I don't have a huge problem with the current title, but I think a move to Allegations of State terrorism by the United States would satisfy the highest number of editors (while obviously some would remain unhappy). But let's talk about this for awhile and let feelings from the AfD cool down a little bit before we make any move. If a lot of people really do want to move to {] we can obviously do that, but there is not a rush right now. Let's take a breath and see where folks stand on what if any title to change this to before embarking on a move war in the immediate aftermath of the AfD. I think we might actually be able to come to some form of agreement on the title and working to that end in good faith would be a good way to move forward from the heated debate of the last few days.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"Allegations" was the consensus name for a while, and the overwhelming result of this recent move poll was "Allegations". There is no need to poll again. - Merzbow 06:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense; you are either lying, or ignorant of the facts, I don't know which (and don't really care). Looking at the history page back a year or so ago -- when the name was first changed to "Allegations" -- it is clear that there was no consensus reached, but the name-change was forced upon the page anyway, despite the protests of somewhere between half and two thirds of the contributing editors (in contrast to the deletionists). Stone put to sky 07:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Keep making personal attacks like that and you will be blocked, I guarantee. - Merzbow 07:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack? That was an exercise in logic: you made a categorically false statement in an authoritative manner. Therefore, you were either boldly lying, or unaware that you were wrong (or in other words, "ignorant of the facts"). I was not insulting you, but simply pointing out that your pretense to knowledge was in fact badly mangling the truth. I believe it would have been something of an insult had i claimed you were lying, but as i said then: i don't care either way, and the question never even crossed my mind. For my part, i try to assume good faith with all editors. My only concern was that your inaccurate statements not be accepted as truth. Stone put to sky 18:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

What the situation was one year ago is not interesting now. The current poll supported a move.Ultramarine 08:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

what happened a year ago is relevant; since we did not protest when the first move was made, i see no reason for you to protest now when it is moved back. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Stone put to sky 18:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much about the history of this article and had not looked at that poll carefully, but given that and the comments in the AfD I think a move to Allegations of state terrorism by the United States would be fine (I certainly would not revert it). I won't move it myself at this point, but perhaps someone else will. Even though I think that's the direction this article will go, it might be advisable to discuss this calmly for a day and try to get most folks on the same "page" (or maybe not, it could just prove more divisive). Though personally I have no problem with the "Allegations" move I do definitely object to efforts like that of Morton to bring in the "international law" language since no one seemed interested in that.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it even possible to move it back now or is administrator help required? The redirect is in the way. - Merzbow 07:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your measured tone, BTP, but i do hope you understand that changing the title will do nothing to ameliorate the efforts of those who want to see the page deleted; the only thing it will succeed in doing is watering down the page title.

As i have pointed out: millions upon millions of Turks and Muslims protest that the Armenian Genocide never happened, just as there are many thousands of folks (at least) who protest that the Holocaust never happened. We don't have pages called "Allegations of the Holocaust", "Allegations of the Armenian Genocide", nor "Allegations of Holocaust Denial". The place for such language is within the article proper, not in the title; unfortunately, the people here -- the very people now demanding the name change -- have put such artificial limits on the content here that this article could never include such rhetoric (i know, because a year or two ago i was the one who tried to get that language included).

The fact that there are vocal, boisterous people on these pages who protest the title is unremarkable, while the idea that this idea is somehow something that has only achieved the status of hazy allegations is extraordinarily inaccurate.

So basically, what we have here is a group that will not be satisfied by a name change that is inconsistent with Misplaced Pages policy and does nothing to clarify, improve, or strengthen the article. Do you really endorse that? And if so, then please explain your reasoning, because i just don't see it. Stone put to sky 07:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I understand that there are some folks who want this page deleted at any cost regardless of the title, and obviously I disagree with that and have no illusions about what a page move would accomplish. But I also think there were a large number of folks at the AfD who preferred that version and did not have an axe to grind. As I said I'm fine with the title as it is, but I don't think preceding it with "allegations" is such a terrible option and I think that it would placate some folks who feel the title is inherently POV (of course others would not be placated). I understand your analogies, but I don't think they are entirely pat. We can obviously prove conclusively that the Holocaust occurred, and though we can prove that the United States did many of the things described in the article, we cannot "prove" that these constitute "state terrorism" simply because, as everyone has acknowledged, that term remains controversial (if there was similar controversy around the term "Holocaust" it would be the same thing, but I at least am not aware of any such controversy in any serious sense). Thus I think the "allegations" label would be somewhat appropriate, and I don't think it fundamentally waters down the content of the article, which should speak for itself. I don't think that article title would be inconsistent with Wiki policy, and though I agree that the title move perhaps does little or nothing to clarify, improve, or strengthen the article I think it may be the best way forward at this point. For those of us interested in keeping this article I think it's also very much a question of picking our battles--whether "allegations" is in the title or not is just not a life and death issue for me.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, i can only say i respectfully disagree. State terrorism is a concept that has been rather clearly defined and is seeing increasing use in the international diplomatic, intelligence and legal communities; it's controversy is largely restricted to print and broadcast media and military circles, but even in the latter there's a lot more agreement than is widely acknowledged.

I don't think the name of this article would be an issue at all except that the people who want to see it deleted have made it one. Picking our battles? Everything on this page is a battle, even trivial, patently obvious statements like the opening sentence.

I wholeheartedly believe that changing the title will achieve nothing of value and its effects will work only counter-productively -- and not just for this page, but for all of wikipedia. The changes would only serve the interests of those people who want to see the page deleted and noone else. Leaving it as it is, however, will send a message to all prospective page vandals out to push a point-of-view on wikipedia, while helping to establish clear wikipedia policy on the introduction of weasel-words.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Regardless of the outcome, it's been a pleasure. Stone put to sky 08:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I urge everyone to read the Stone put to sky's last addition, the whole new section on the Philliphines. This completely one-sided personal essay regarding the relationship between two democratically elected governments speaks for itself.Ultramarine 10:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"This completely one-sided personal essay regarding the relationship between two democratically elected governments speaks for itself." Well, yes. It speaks well of SPtS's integrity that he is willing to include material even against interest, whether we address Cook's Castile Soap in the Philipines, US Army pinapple plantations in Hawaii, or Guatemala. If the position of the United Fruit Company were only morally relative, most of the methodological work in understanding American terrorism would obviate the requirement that pov-forking not be tolerated within the domain of our contemporary understanding of that term as contributors. Since the theory of political action developed during the Reagan administration must be considered in determining the extent of US latafundian imperialism, we have to work hard to provide a consistent structure for understanding. A case of lazie-faire capitalism of a different sort cannot be arbitrarily imposed by opinion-leaders of the "people" (as they would have us understand that obligation) at Misplaced Pages. Of course, any demonstrated association with Sam Zemurray should be presented and, at the same time, eliminated from the universe of discourse through demonstrating Reagan's notorious "hands-off' management style, that should not be presented as lack of accountability unless a reliable source has made that connection. The levels of acceptability of this kind of thing were fairly high during the Reagan admministration, if less well-articulated than might have been hoped by both his supporters and detractors. We must bring evidence in support or contradiction of this thesis if we are to present the casual reader with a balanced account. If we all approach this in SPtS's spirit of open-handed generousity by writing for the enemy, this process of "selection" by introduction of important context will, I'm sure we all hope, be determined by the relative distinction of the sources, in the holistic sense in common academic and non-academic use today. Tom Harrison 17:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Great post Tom. You make some good points, among them that we can only improve this article by the normal processes, and that assuming good faith will be the key. Let's take this idea forward; I think it is a lot more likely to achieve the goal of giving us a better article than watering down the title. --John 18:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The same standards used in other article must be used here. Misplaced Pages is often over-cautious with the US, let's void double standards.--BMF81 19:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Sandbox, 2

Ultramarine claims that he has improved the text, but so far as i can tell any changes are merely cosmetic and have done nothing to address the objections listed above. Stone put to sky 05:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

You mean the proposed additiions here: User:Ultramarine/Sandbox. The main objection seem to be that the sources do not mention "state terrorism." That is a double standard since the same applies to most of the sources in this article.Ultramarine 08:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not a double standard; this has already been explained to you repeatedly, but i will assume good faith and do so again:

The material introduced to this page must either use the phrase "state terrorism" and predicate that to the U.S, or it must directly reference such a publication. Much of your material does neither and so is inadmissible as content.

Further, you are ignoring the many complaints that much of what you have posted on that page is Original Research, unsourced personal opinions, or plain violations of the neutral point of view that wikipedia demands.

Thus, the consensus here is that the sandbox material does not meet the standards that you yourself have set for this page, and unless you can correct these flaws it cannot be added. Stone put to sky 08:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Your claims are incorrect and you have not answered to my responses regarding them above. But again, let's discuss your main objection. Again, most of the sources in this article do not mention "state terrorism" or reference another publication mentioning "state terrorism". Not that your last requirement in any way proves that the first source mentions "state terrorism". Ultramarine 08:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Once again:

The material introduced to this page must either use the phrase "state terrorism" and predicate that to the U.S, or it must directly reference such a publication. Much of your material does neither and so is inadmissible as content.

All of the material i just added does conform to this standard.

That's all there is to it. These are the standards that you yourself have laid down for the page. Please, do the honorable thing and adhere to your own standards. We will not allow you to create a double standard for this page.

I have deleted your "Opposing" section per the recommendations of the other contributing editors here. Please understand that any more mass deletions of material will be considered vandalism. Stone put to sky 09:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, most of the sources in this article do not mention "state terrorism" or reference another publication mentioning "state terrorism". Not that your last requirement in any way proves that the first source mentions "state terrorism". By the way, your last section on the Philippines is so obviously a completely one-sided personal essay that that I will probably just let it stand uncorrected.Ultramarine 10:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I shall take your inactivity in that matter as evidence that i have done an excellent job, managing to satisfy both your own high content standards as well as managing to properly exposit the intended subject.

Now, regarding your claims about the content standards on this page: you are plainly wrong.

All of the sources used in the sub-sections dealing with evidence against and condemnations of the U.S. are each clearly built around documents which first predicate the crime of state terrorism by the united states, and then supplemented by sources which outline the events and crimes outlined in those fundamental documents.

Either your sources must directly address those fundamental documents or they must themselves use the phrase "State terrorism" predicated to the United States. If your material and sources do not meet either of these criteria then they cannot be included on the page.

In addition, all contrasting views must be presented under the proper sub-heading. There is no place here for an "Opposing Views" section, because we are describing real-world events, not theories.

I suggest that you try harder to conform to these standards, and am in fact a little shocked at your protests. These are standards of your own creation; for you to claim that they do not hold is, frankly, ridiculous. Your presence on this page for the last two years has guaranteed adherence to them.

These are the rules which you yourself have established.

You plainly have no right to try and change them now. Stone put to sky 10:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, your so obviously biased personal essay regarding the relationship between two democratically elected governments will only damage your cause. As will your claim that the whole article only have established true facts and that there is no mere allegation. No, most of the sources in this article do not mention "state terrorism" or reference another publication mentioning "state terrorism". Not that your last requirement in any way proves that the first source mentions "state terrorism". So no double standard please. Regarding presenting all sides, see WP:NPOV and WP:Content forking.Ultramarine 10:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Move to Allegations of breaches of international law by the United States

Poll

I concur with MichaelLinnear and Morton devonshire that this is the most appropriate title for this article, especially since that is what the ICJ found the U.S. government to be guilty of in the case of Nicaragua vs United States. Even so, Nicaragua later dropped their suit and claim to reparations that the ICJ decreed that the U.S. was supposed to pay the government of Nicaragua.--MONGO 12:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll get a poll started here:

• Keep existing title

1. Stone put to sky 16:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
2. Bigtimepeace I'm also fine with Allegations of state terrorism by the United States, but the more I think about it the less I am okay with the breaches of international law option, which simply creates too many problems.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
3. Leave it alone --74.73.16.230 13:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
4. Have editors considered the consequences of moving the page to “Allegations of”? As it stands the page makes well sourced claims that are mostly admitted to by the U.S. (the dispute is mainly that the U.S. doesn’t consider it's actions terrorism) and is relatively NPOV thus making the current title more appropriate. For allegations, the burden of proof is lower and this will allow for more content that will be even more controversial. For example there is the illegal medical experimentation on pre pubescent children. The Unabomber is known to have taken part in CIA mind-control experiments and Sirhan Sirhan claimed the CIA programmed him to kill Kennedy. I have also read that the CIA sponsored militia in Guatemala wore swastika armbands and were organised along the lines of the SS. Then closer to my home there are the allegations of the U.S. arming terrorists that were fighting Australian troops in Timor. I'm sure the pro-U.S. editors don’t want all those extra claims in there despite them having (marginally) reliable sources. Of course such content being included will probably be a big part of arguments supporting deletion at the next AfD so maybe that is the plan. It’s time editors stopped the POV pushing by trying to get it deleted or violating NPOV by watering it down when that fails. You'd think that 6 AfD failures would give some an idea of what the consensus is. Wayne 18:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   I think you make an excellent point Wayne, and it is one I considered. However, the alternative, in my view, is to remove some of the allegations that have less merit. As it stands now, it seems to me that there are some editorial gymnastics that have been exercised in order to include items on this list. Having one notable person declare that an action is terrorism, especially when that person is someone with a well-known bias, does not seem like a sufficient condition for such an inclusion on this list. Although I feel that all of the items on this list reflect poorly on the US, and I cannot think of any whose actuality I dispute, many of them do not seem to be easily defined as "terrorism". Benhocking 18:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   Terrorism is hard to define as one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Unfortunately the bar has been set by content in WP articles on organisations and countries the U.S. does not like. WP must be consistant if it's to have credibility. Wayne 19:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   While I appreciate that terrorism is hard to define, it would seem that an intent to instill some sort of terror should be a prerequisite. Although an assertion as to such is made in all cases, in some cases that assertion seems dubious. As for the bar being set, I do not believe that the bar is all that rigid. If the term is applied inappropriately in articles on "organisations and countries the U.S. does not like" (and I'm not disputing that), then the appropriate action is to fix the "bar" there, and not apply an equally incorrect "bar" here. Benhocking 20:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

5. I'm against moving the article. Adding weasel words to an article, especially to the title, seldom improves it. --John 16:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
6. Keep, allegations, as John mentions allegations is a weasel word. Changing the title will not change the "usual suspects" frenzied rabid effort to delete this article. 69.152.139.102 20:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
7. Leave the title alone. Didn't you guys vote on the title last month? Will there be a vote on this next month too (no matter what title is chosen now)? Are you familiar with the work of Sisyphus? How about we get to work on adding to the article? --NYCJosh 21:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
8. Leave alone, as explained before. This is getting boring. Also, the credibility of those who really want the article deleted, is strained at best in regards to this article. I suggest a coolling off period from this article from these folks, and let this be delt with new editors whose neutrality is not so compromised, having just failed another AfD, which exposed a very pathetic attempt at nothing less than article vandalimsm (for what is a worse case of vandalism than trying to blank a legitimate articles very existence?).Giovanni33 03:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
9. Leave it alone. All articles are named for the particular controversy. Whether it turns out to be "true" or not is for the article's body to decide. Putting "allegations of" in the title is as inappropriate as putting "proof of" in the title. .V. 03:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
10. I'm also in favor of having further separate articles for Allegations of breaches of international law by the United States and Allegations of state terrorism by the United States. The broader the coverage in Misplaced Pages, the better.--BMF81 19:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move to Allegations of breaches of international law by the United States

1. --MONGO 12:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
2. Better describes page content; terminology used by mainstream sources. Tom Harrison 13:33, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   Your lack of reading the sources goes to show the weight of your agument. The terminology referencing international law only appears under one section, which also calls the acts terrorism. There are currently more sources alleging terrorism, then breaches of international law. --74.73.16.230 17:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   Agreed, I don't see how someone can argue that this title better describes the content of the page. It clearly does not so I don't think that's a valid rationale. If the objective is to make the article content conform to the new title ex post facto (i.e., once it is moved anything mentioning state terrorism would be deleted, i.e. an enormous percentage of the article) then please admit to this at the outset as it would seem to be little more than a means to get around the decision in the AfD.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The result of the AfD was No Consensus. "Getting around that" to achieve consensus should be the goal. Obstructing that is against policy.--Tbeatty 17:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. -- JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 14:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
2. Better. But it must be accompanied by the deleteion of all the POV and OR crap. --Tbeatty 16:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
3. 1st choice. - Merzbow 16:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
4. First choice --  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 17:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
5. Much more appropriate title. --Aude (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
6. Pablo Talk | Contributions 19:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
7. --MichaelLinnear 20:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move to Allegations of state terrorism by the United States

1. All of these cases involve definitive allegations of state terrorism and not just breaches of international law. That said, some of the articles seem to be somewhat acrobatic in getting there. Whether this is due to problems in illegitimate synthesis or poor writing, I cannot tell for certain as (a) I'm not familiar with many of the allegations made here, and (b) I'm not a good writer myself. This would be my rule of thumb, however: if you can't tell whether a "case" involves allegations of state terrorism (engaged in and/or sponsored by the US) until the last paragraph, it is, at the very least, not well written. Furthermore, some of the articles posted here are not just allegations, but seem to me to be somewhat dubious or speculative allegations. They are sourced allegations, but they are clearly just allegations. (For those who state this won't solve the bickering, that's not my point. I also don't plan on bringing peace to the Middle East. I just think that this article is consistently about allegations of US state-terrorism more than it is about well-established cases of US state-terrorism.) Benhocking 13:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
2. Since most opponents feel WP is not allowed to have a sourced critique on the US maybe renaming it to a watered down version helps aleviate concerns. Breaches of international law does not describe the numerous terrorism-like actions executed or supported by the US. Heck, for someone to break the law he need only to be jaywalking. Clearly, to include jaywalking with allegations of murder is muddying the waters. As an aside, exactly what is the difference between allegation and established fact? If we mandate a court ruling we should acknowledge that for political reasons no US administration will ever face a court of law. Does this mean no crime has been committed? Of course not. It proves that Justice still is not blind. Nomen Nescio 14:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   Did the ICJ decree that the US had committed terrorist acts? No...Chomsky and others of like mind have made that comparison. I'll be patiently waiting for similar articles we are long overdue for here to ensure Misplaced Pages provides a good hearing...such as State terrorism by Cuba, State terrorism by the USSR, State terrorism by Iraq, State terrorism by North Korea, State terrorism by (any other country...pick one). I see plenty of articles condemning U.S. international actions...Criticism of the War on Terrorism comes to mind...all I see regarding other countries "sponsoring" terrorism is Terrorism in Syria and Terrorism in Russia and a few others, with only the latter examining the issue of the country of Syria sponsoring terrorism. Hardly fair and balanced it seems.--MONGO 15:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   In all fairness, MONGO, I don't think anyone would be too upset if you created those articles yourself. I'm sure there is plenty of good evidence to back up those claims, too. However, actually writing the articles and providing the citations is not trivial. Perhaps you could start a project to help organize it? (Being new here, I don't really know what's involved in creating such projects, although I'm sure I could figure it out if I dug around for awhile.) My point is, that complaining that other articles don't exist does not have any bearing on whether or not this article should exist. If those articles should exist (and why shouldn't they?), then someone needs to write them. Just don't sign me up for that exercise. ;) Benhocking 15:33, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   You seemed to have missed the point...the point is wikipedia is not a here to report opinions as facts. It is the opinion of Chomsky and others that the U.S. has committed acts of terrorism. The only facts we have are that the ICJ decreed that the U.S. had violated Nicaraguan rights...they never said anything in their determination about terrorism and Nicaragua dropped their suit anyway. We don't have these articles because the radical left isn't on Misplaced Pages to be neutral...they just want to POV push this egregious violation of WP:SYNTH and others like it. I'm not going to create these articles just to be "fair", even though we definitely could find excellent references to support such articles. I'm not here to be a POV pusher...I am here to stop POV pushing.--MONGO 15:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   I do not feel that they are reporting opinions as facts, but rather reporting notable opinions as notable opinions, which is why I stated that moving this article to "Allegations of..." makes sense. (When it comes down to it, however, how does one separate "opinions" from "facts"? Would it be a fact if it were the opinion of the ICJ?) Benhocking 15:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

   Also, allow me to be clear about my point in creating those other articles. I'm not advocating creating them just to be "fair". I'm advocating creating them to help complete the discussion, and because they would be interesting. Although neutral is an admiral goal, "fair" is something that life isn't and never will be. ;) Benhocking 15:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

3. 2nd choice - Merzbow 16:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
4. Second. --MichaelLinnear 20:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
5. Second Choice --Tbeatty 01:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
6. Second choice --Sefringle 06:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• Do something else

1. Leave it alone --74.73.16.230 13:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
2. --"Involvement/complicity of the US in State terrorism and War Crimes", or something similar. It seems to me that there are a lot of sources that imply this in an unambiguous way. In the Cold War the US was involved in conflicts, backing parties who were involved in state terrorism, war crimes and other horrible things. To say that this means that US itself is then guilty of State Terrorism is more controversial. If we change the title to "Allegations of state terrorism by the US", then the focus of the article must be the opinion of the people who make this case, making the article less broad.Count Iblis 20:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
3. Leave it alone. Stone put to sky 14:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
4. Rename it to a truthful title. Rename to Terrosim committed by the Great Satan
5. better than leaving is alone, per Nescio's suggestion below, rename to "Sourced Critique of United States Foreign Policy." It will at least be sourced. --Tbeatty 01:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

   Tbeatty, I have a hard time believing you are acting in good faith by misrepresenting Nescio. He did not make the suggestion you attribute to him, and certainly this type of behavior is not condoned on Misplaced Pages. Benhocking 01:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how your personal feelings about me are relevant to this discussion. Considering that the article misrepresents the actions of the United States and is marginally sourced and hugely one sided, I would think your concerns about me are somewhat misapplied. --Tbeatty 04:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice way of dodging the point. You misrepresented Nescio. That is unacceptable. I have no personal feelings about you at all. However, I do have feelings about spreading misinformation - whether about other people or about entire countries. Do you think spreading misinformation is acceptable, in any format? Benhocking 12:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. Delete--Sefringle 06:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

The title "Allegations of breaches of international law by the United States" is too weak. Most countries of the world have violated international law in one way or another. So, it doesn't carry much information. In fact the word "allegation" in the title would actually suggest that the US actually performed better than most other countries when it comes to upholding international law. :) Count Iblis 13:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Does that mean you are for keeping the existing title? It's unclear. Perhaps you can weigh in above in the appropriate section.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

This not an article about "breaches of international law by the united states". However, if you all think that such an article is useful then feel free to create it. This article is about state terrorism by the united states -- the concept, who makes these charges, and what evidence there might be to support such an idea.

Please stop trying to play these name-change games, fellows. There is no consensus for such a change, and there will not be one. You are all currently quite guilty of WP:SOAPBOX, WP:NPOV, and WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

Please understand that any attempt to change the title without first reaching a consensus will be considered page vandalism, and acted upon accordingly. Stone put to sky 14:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

You mean like what was done here? Notice that it was marked as minor. That's a minor move??? Looks like vandalism by your definition. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 14:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism???? According to the article, that would be "terrorism.". --Tbeatty 06:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

It's too soon for this kind of warring junk. SchmuckyTheCat

Then head back to ED, Schmucky. Go troll there for awhile.--MONGO 15:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't call me a troll Mongo. SchmuckyTheCat

Then stop trolling Schmucky. If you have nothing useful to add to the conversation from which we can figure out how to make the article better, then simply go away.--MONGO 04:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

In less than 24 hours after an AfD the dissenters, including yourself, are systematically edit warring (including page moves) the page in an organized manner. My statement is that the situation needs to settle down and no particular action needs to happen immediately. It isn't trolling to state that we can all take a breather and discuss things before taking one-sided actions. SchmuckyTheCat

MONGO, a statement like that never does anything other than escalate a situation. Something this page certainly does not need. --MichaelLinnear 20:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Refrain from attacking people Mongo, you will get further if you try not intimidating others, this is not the school yard. --74.73.16.230 03:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

When the article was first moved from "State terrorism" to "Allegations of..." there was clearly no established consensus, vocal opposition to it, and much protest at the time it happened. Moving it back, therefore, was merely a restoration of the title after vandals had moved it against the wishes of the community. Stone put to sky 16:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The move poll under the "Title" section clearly showed that the consensus is for "Allegations of...", no matter how much you try to ignore it. - Merzbow 16:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, but then what's the point of this

poll?--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Most of the folks voting to change the name were hoping it would stop the AfDs. I'm not so sure they'd be that enthusiastic if they realized it wouldn't clean anything up.

As i counted it, there were 8 deletionists -- most of whom haven't contributed a single word to this article -- voting to change the name to something absurd, 5 contributing editors voting not to, and two contributing editors voting for "allegations". So if we cut the deletionist votes down to people who have actually contributed content (or attempted to), we get something like 5 to 4 against.

I think it's rather absurd to have 7 people who have refused any and all attempts to cooperate towards consensus -- and who are, in toto, more responsible than anyone else for the direction the page has taken -- getting the final say in what the title of the article is. Stone put to sky 19:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• I'm against moving the article. Adding weasel words to an article, especially to the title, seldom improves it. --John 16:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
• Move to "Sourced Critique of the United States" per Nomen Nescio above.

1. Seems like a good title to me. Seems to be the goal of the article too. --Tbeatty 17:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Please, this discussion is already going to be ridiculous enough as it is. Let's refrain from adding in jokey make a point comments like this one which serve no constructive purpose whatsoever. Obviously Nomen Nescio did not suggest this title, and you already voted for another option.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That's very disingenuous, Tbeatty, and does not seem like you're acting in good faith with respect to Nomen Nescio, as that was not his suggestion that you're attributing to him. Benhocking 17:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment. Personally I will be less than impressed by a fairly high vote title for the move to "breaches of international law by the united states." This proposal has, of course, been listed at Morton's Illuminati Noticeboard and will therefore receive votes from all of the usual suspects (many have already weighed in) who usually vote identically on "conspiracy theory" matters (though how this article has anything to do with conspiracy theories eludes me). It's obviously fine for that crew to weigh in here, but I think we should think of this "poll" (I'd much prefer a discussion) as an attempt to reach some consensus on the title (which may be impossible) rather than a straight winner-take-all vote. The proposed move is extremely, extremely radical, and I feel there should be fairly broad agreement about it in order for it to happen, not one well organized group of like-minded editors voting in lock step and thus bringing about a page move (I'm just calling it like I see it).--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Discussion is far better than a vote. --John 18:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Bigtime and John. --NYCJosh 21:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Which is why it specifically states that straw polls are not binding. --74.73.16.230 03:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I hope that none of you are allowing anti-American feelings to influence your interpretation of Wiki policy. Because, you know, this is not about whether you love or hate the US -- it's about following our policies. The US does plenty of stupid things, most of which is well-documented in these pages by reliable sources, without resort to synthesis. Why the need to pin this on America as well by resort to relying on axe-grinding Leftists like Chomsky and Chossudovsky is beyond me (neither of which meet our requirements as reliable sources for this subject matter). Is your disgust with American foreign policy so important that you would allow something which so obviously violates Wiki policies to stand? Let's put this to bed by choosing a title that all of us can live with.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 03:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Speaking for myself Morton, I take great offense at being even implicitly labeled anti-American, so please do not throw that kind of language around anymore. I object just as vociferously to anyone who would label you or other editors "pro-American" in a supposedly derogatory fashion. That kind of talk gets us nowhere, and literally has no meaning among people who do not know one another. Otherwise, I think the issues you bring up with respect to Wiki policy have already been discussed to death, so I see no point in rehashing them.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The last thing I expected to be called was anti-American. I know many kids these days like to run around talking about "left" and "right" but people like myself who have served do not play on the political divide. Do not consider yourself more American or any less American depending on the party you serve. If you want to take a moral high road and support your country, enlist. As with Bigtimepeace, I do not appreciate this "Leftists" bashing and labeling of people, we are here to edit, I hope you are not here representing your political party. --74.73.16.230 10:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I will ignore MortonD's name-calling and say that I agree (see my vote above) that we should get down to business and stop fighting over the title. You state: "The US does plenty of stupid things, most of which is well-documented in these pages by reliable sources, without resort to synthesis." OK, if you and some of the other editors (you know who you are) who are consistently trying to delete but hardly ever trying to add to this article each agreee to add one such act of terrorism (or whatever else you would like to call it) appropriate to this page and agree to desist from further attempts to delete the article or change its name, I for one will agree to change the title to "Allegations of State Terrorism by the U.S." Then we could stop playing games and start building the article.--NYCJosh 18:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I further agree with MortonD that we should follow WP policy in trying to resolve some of these issues.--NYCJosh 18:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, too. Should i move my "Honest proposal for Radical Change of Direction" up here? I think it's a bit long, but i'd appreciate y'all's input on it.

The only way we can get the attacks on content to stop is to open up the page a bit more so that the deletionists here are able to post a bit more freely; currently, thanks to the strict rules they've enforced so rigidly, there isn't much room for them to do the ol' rhetorical dance. I think if we modified the title just a bit we could resolve the lengthy content problem as well as make some folks feel like the page is a bit more fair.

Interesting, too: Henrik mentions below that he suggested the same thing a month ago. In light of that, it seems like an even better idea than it did before.Stone put to sky 18:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Guatemala and Philippine section

I really support this article, but I suggest the excellent written first section of Guatemala be moved to the 1950s overthrow article, since it has nothing to do with terrorism per se.

The Philippine section is also interesting, but it is so large, maybe it deserves a seperate new article. Military aid to the Philippines is not terrorism, unless it is used for terrorist purposes. 69.152.139.102 20:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

There is certainly enough info in the Philippine section to start a new article on the subject. Perhaps someone can do that and later when this article becomes too large, we can start to it down a bit, keeping the sections but moving a lot of the details to the article on the subject. This article needs a section on American Indians who faced terrorism by the US government. There is certainly notable observations of these occurances. Also, the KKK, and such terrorist, racist organizations, might be another one to look at, to the extent that the govt. is complicit.Giovanni33 03:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with including any of this stuff in distinct articles. The page is getting huge. I have always said that i thought a better treatment for this page would be to avoid getting bogged down in the details of the evidence and instead discuss the foundation of the condemnations of U.S. policy and why people think that qualifies as terrorism. The deletionists here have always rejected that approach out of hand.

Now they've got the page they insisted upon, and they want to delete that, too. Anyone surprised?

The first part of the Guatemala section is, IMO, relevant; it establishes that from the very beginning of U.S. involvement in the coup, assassinations, violence, and illegal, subversive action were common tools. All of that has bearing on what followed over the course of the next forty years, has in its own right been called state-sponsored terrorism, and falls within the scope of the definitions laid out at the top of this page. Stone put to sky 06:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The U.S. also gives to the U.N. Should we explore the "terrorism" by troops under the U.N. banner? It seems to fit the criteria that is used to include these other sections. --Tbeatty 07:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with that, and i would happily contribute to such a page. Why don't you start it, Tbeatty? Stone put to sky 09:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I would happily assist as well, just point me toward some material and I will crack some books. Thanks Tbeatty. --74.73.16.230 10:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

We don't need a new page, just a new section. I suggest we start with Rwanda. The U.S. gave money to the U.N. The U.N. is responsible for all those deaths. Therefore U.S. = terrorism in Rwanda. Same formula as the Phillipines and Guatemala section. We could do the same for a France secion. U.S. trains with France, French soldiers raped and terrorized girls in an African nation they were doing peacekeeping in, therefore U.S. = terrorism. --Tbeatty 14:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice we are getting somewhere, what we need now are references citing those things as terrorism attributable to the United States. If you have some books that do, or articles, even authors I will do a little leg work. Thank you much. --SixOfDiamonds 15:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Why do we need that? We only need the inference of that for the Phillipines and Guatemala. There is no doubt that the Rwanda killings were terrorism. U.N. was supposed to help. Therefore, the United States = Terrorism in Rwanda. This is the same synthesis as we are using in the Phillipines and Guatemala sections (and manjy others). --Tbeatty 16:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Why do we need what? sources? I do not get the question. There is a section below regarding the Cultural Terrorism I would like to get your feedback regarding. If you can rephrase your above question into a complete sentence let me know, perhaps I am not understanding why you are advocating not having any sources for your proposed articles above. --SixOfDiamonds 18:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Move against consensus?

I really can't see any consensus here for the move. This is an awful title. --John 05:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this was most certainly a major move against consensus. This new title has a number of problems. I'm trying to restore it but I'm not sure how its done properly. Please help.Giovanni33 05:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

You'll need an admin to undo the move now. Your edit here made it so that wikipedia can't move the article back to the State terrorism article name.--Bobblehead 05:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Opps. I've never tried to move, etc. articles. I think John is an admin., and can fix this. Thanks.Giovanni33 05:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Moved to "State-sponsored terrorism by the United States" until we can get this State terrorism.... bug worked out. Stone put to sky 06:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to try to move it back. Pablo Talk | Contributions 06:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

That didn't work. Pablo Talk | Contributions 06:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this even more POV move which is not supported by the evidence...unless of course by evidence we are using some really extreme opinions to justify this title. I hope you guys keep adding extremism to this article...it will make it easier to demostrate it for what it is...a soapbox. Have fun! Why not just retitle it to The U.S of A., the evil empire...seriously.--MONGO 06:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

MONGO: judging from the history, it looks like you were the one to first move it, but to the ludicrously generic and (presumably deliberatly) meaningless title of "Allegations of breaches of international law by the United States". If you read the comments above, that led to them trying to move it back. Difficulties ensued, and this is the result. So, you're the reason for the "even more POV move" that you're bemoaning. Actually, I don't see the difference between "State terrorism" and "State-sponsored terrorism", except for (a) the latter is more common usage, and (b) it seems to be less POV as it indicates sponsorship and not execution. Benhocking 12:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Get your facts straight next time...Morton moved it first so I was reverting to his wise decision --MONGO 12:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

That's why I was careful to cite my source. :) If you look at the history logs, you'll note that your name is first on the list of moves. I assume that all of the moves somehow damaged those history logs, which covered up Morton's move. However, the main point still stands. If someone hadn't moved it to that ridiculously generic name (how much additional information could go under such a category?!?), it wouldn't be where it is now. It seems that Stone put to sky was acting in good faith, but could not restore the title to it's original wording. It also seems that those choosing to rename were acting in a rash manner, after drumming up a small bit of support for their move. Do you really believe that "Allegations of breaches of international law by the United States" is a more precise or accurate description of this article?!? Are you actually inviting people to create a list that includes all allegations of breaches of international law and not just those that some consider to be terrorism? Such a title is at best a category title and not an article title. Perhaps someone should create that category! Benhocking 12:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes I do believe the move I made was to a title that could be more accurate based on the ICJ findings in Nicargua vs the U.S. Frankly, you did a few edits with this account two years ago and since returning very recently all you seem to be doing is POV pushing and arguing. In fact, you fit in nicely with the others here who are obvious single purpose editors.--MONGO 13:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Not entirely correct, The name you chose is to generic, encompasses even minor violations, and certainly was not supported by consensus. Nomen Nescio 13:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

So, are you actually inviting people to create a list that includes all allegations of breaches of international law and not just those that some consider to be terrorism? As for me: (a) I don't know what my editing habits have to do with my argument (the same point I've made in defending critics such as yourself to others, you might note, since you're so interested in my editing habits), and (b) POV pushing?!? Care to cite an example? I have been arguing both sides of this issue. Go ahead and read my edit history again. In this particular discussion (which has occupied the majority of my edits, I imagine), I think you'll find that I have been arguing more for due process than about any particular POV. Unless you consider arguing for a name change to "Allegations of state terrorism by the United States" POV! Benhocking 13:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

That depends if you are interested in disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point...are you? Yes, when I see someone with your editing history, I do see them as being here for one purpose...arguing. Due process? According to who? You? This isn't your only account...is it? If it is, what a waste. We have 1.8 million articles...go forth and create something...anything. I have...once you do, come back and let me know.--MONGO 13:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not interested in disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point - which is why I didn't make the name change that you are arguing would disrupt Misplaced Pages! Yes, I enjoy a good argument. I don't think this qualifies, however, as you never seem to actually answer my points. As for articles, I actually did create a couple a while back, and I'm sure I will again. I'm not a very good writer, however, so I'm more inclined to make minor edits where I see obvious flaws. I also try to make peace where I can. That was one reason I stepped in to defend Ultramarine earlier. Benhocking 13:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

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