Misplaced Pages

Thank you very much. I'm flattered. Durova 16:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Security questions

Is this user's question (posted to many people) appropriate?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Snowolf

Asking someone to reveal information about their password seems very suspicious to me. -- Fyslee/talk 19:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

May I answer please :). There reason is here. Hence some people now think that ones with weak-password should not be admin anymore. --- A. L. M. 19:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll just have to AGF about Snowolf's motives, but whatever the case may be, doing this publicly and expecting public answers isn't very wise, IMHO. -- Fyslee/talk 19:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

CEM on Cole

The discussion seems to have ground to a halt; again, we could use your perspective. I believe that the microproblem has been solved, but we have yet to include the information in the article. As for the macroproblem, Armon claimed a couple of days ago that he was thinking about it; it's fine to give him a chance to respond but I don't see the need to hold up the rest of it while we wait. csloat 18:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

need help with another user.

hello. i appreciate the time you take to help maintain wiki. i will copy the message that i have sent to wiki on the vandalism post.

Morpheen

user continues to remove valid information from Acid Bath musical page, careless of multiple explanations on the content that wiki contains. an explanation that wiki contains all information (past members, and record labels) of the band. the user continues to edit the page to his views, and to blank his own talk page, in order to remove the warnings, and explanations.

i am not sure where to proceed from this, but this has been continuing for over a month. user states that he simply does not like the past record label of the band, so he assumes it should not be known that the band was signed to it. (that is stated from his talk page, which he continues to blank out)

thank you for your time and i hope you can help me fix this delinquency.

The best thing you could do is to add a reliable reference citation for the disputed information. Featured articles make good examples of how this is done. Here are three examples:

• AC/DC
• Sex Pistols
• "Weird Al" Yankovic

From a Wikipedian standpoint I could call an edit vandalism if the material is properly referenced, but when two people add and remove the same unreferenced passage I call that an edit war. If you're correct then it's time to look up some music magazines or CD inserts and write footnotes. Keep in touch to let me know how it goes. Durova 16:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Keith Henson investigation

I was working on a simple mediation cabal case , when I noticed a serious WP:BLP problem, so I started an investigation . What is the next step? I am thinking about checkuser. Jehochman (/_contrib) 21:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I've skimmed the article talk page as well as your mediation and the report. Good work on your part to date. Not sure where WP:BLP fits into the picture, but WP:OWN and WP:COI concerns look serious and obvious. This probably extends to WP:NOR and the undue weight clause of WP:NPOV. How exactly would you justify a checkuser request? Parameters for that are pretty narrow. Durova 17:29, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried to find a connection to show that some of these accounts are the same person, but I haven't been successful, probably because the hypothesis is false. I brought this to BLP at first because there was an severe disclosure of personal information, but should probably move this over to WP:COI/N, since that seems to be the primary concern. Jehochman (/_contrib) 18:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any blocks in the editor's log. From a browse of the account history this looks like a recent flareup of a fairly established (but not particularly active) editor who isn't a single purpose account. Have polite cautions been tried? Persuasion is always the better course when it's possible, and this might very well be a reasonable person. Durova 19:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Since he isn't engaged in abusive sock puppetry, I don't think he needs to be blocked. I have given polite warnings. According to news reports, he's back in custody for legal issues, so I think we can give this time to calm down. On another note, can you look at this other investigation for a Scientologist who has been making COI edits and pushing POV. People on both sides are causing trouble. If enough of them get blocked, they might eventually get the point that Misplaced Pages isn't a battleground. Jehochman (/_contrib) 02:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Scientology is a contentious subject that has gone into arbitration before. I've left my two cents at the thread. Durova 05:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Cole CEM

I know you've been away; when you get a chance, we could use your help on the Cole CEM. csloat 03:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, my comments and suggestions are at the mediation now. Durova 17:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for help

Hi Durova, can you please read this and fix obvious mistakes. I will also appreciate your comment in improving the article. I need to complete it in next few days and file arbitration case. with best wishes. --- A. L. M. 17:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, my keep vote conflicted with MFD closure. I'm not an expert on the subject at hand and partipated in the mediation with considerable trepidation. Arbitration looks like a reasonable step, yet I wonder whether the arbitrators would be bolder than I was. Serious real world controversies dovetail at this topic. Could you separate the site policy issues from the (probably insoluble) religious and political aspects? Durova 18:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not know that how to do that. It is difficult for me to tell that WP:Profanity is violated based on a Muslim religious believes. Furthermore, pictures drawing were very rare by Muslim artist given that it was against Islam. Hence presenting those very rare pictures in large number and putting them on prominent places in articles is clear violation of WP:Undue weight. I think some non-Muslim (like yourself) after reading the article can present my points in much better way. Hence if you could do some editing then it will be great. --- A. L. M. 14:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I gave my own two cents at the mediation, which was generally sympathetic to your position. Yet I suggest before you go farther you float the idea with at least one member of the arbitration committee. They generally deal with matters that pertain to user conduct and overall the conduct level at that mediation impressed me. Think about any aspects of your request that could be pertinent to arbitration and articulate those angles very clearly. The Committee usually rejects requests that are content disputes. Durova 15:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Done . Should I contact other members too? Also thinking to contact Jimbo Wales. --- A. L. M. 15:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Use your own best judgement. Durova 16:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Stopping Vandalism

I just spent 50 minutes playing cat and mouse with a vandal, and WP:AIV still hasn't acted on my block request. I guess its time to ask for the tools. What do you think? Jehochman (/_contrib) 04:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Done, 24 hour block. Sometimes it feels good to have the tools. Thanks for the heads up. Cheers, Durova 04:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

This one is using proxies. He's over here now: 142.179.62.0 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Jehochman (/_contrib) 04:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we are dealing with a black hat SEO who may be using some sort of script. I see a pattern in the edits. My suspicion is that they want one specific reference gone, and are attacking all of them to create confusion. Can we semi-protect the targeted articles, starting with Traffic Power? Jehochman (/_contrib) 05:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Am I caught up on the blocks? Keep me apprised; I'm working on a complex investigation with another editor atm. Durova 05:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protecting. Give me the full list. Durova 05:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocks are good. Here are the targeted articles. I think he'll be back soon. Jehochman (/_contrib) 05:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• 23:59, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) April 1, 2007
• 23:59, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) Traffic Power
• 23:58, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) One way link
• 23:58, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) Barry Schwartz (technologist)
• 23:57, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) Rand Fishkin
• 23:57, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) Link bait
• 23:56, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) Doug Heil
• 23:55, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) Big Daddy Google
• 23:54, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) Google Image Labeler
• 23:52, 13 May 2007 (hist) (diff) PageRank

All done. Are the fires out? You need the tools, my friend. We have to get you sysopped. I'll find you a barnstar for this work as soon as I'm free from the other task I was working on. Cheers! Durova 05:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

My watchlist is calm. I was pleased to see other users spontaneously helping out and left them "thank you" messages. Jehochman (/_contrib) 05:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You'll make an outstanding sysop someday, and I hope that day comes soon. Do me a favor please? Write up a summary of this incident and post to WP:AN. The community ought to be apprised of this. A lot of them are very naive about this sort of abuse. Durova 05:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Done Jehochman (/_contrib) 05:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think "competitor" was the right word, so I changed it to "adversary." Hope you don't mind. Jehochman (/_contrib) 06:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

That's fine with me. I was searching for the right wording. Didn't want to get into jargon. Durova 06:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't we have better things to do at 3 AM then this?

No? Oh well :). I've made an offer over on CN, if that account wants to post information and evidence in their defense, plus I've also sent the user a reply to the email he sent me. SirFozzie 07:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It isn't 3 AM in my time zone, and thanks. I'm helping an editor with a complex investigation atm. Took a break to check in on the RFAR. Durova 07:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh fun. Good luck! SirFozzie 07:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Defending oneself in CN discussions

Hello. Firstly, I want to confess to feeling intimidated when speaking to such experienced editors like yourself. Please excuse me if I say anything ignorant or that betrays unfamiliarity with CSN.

The concern that I tried to raise at the RFAR and at CSN is that I feel that editors against whom allegations are made should have the total freedom to defend themselves that is accorded to all the participants in the discussion. It is unfair that all the "claimants"/"prosecutors" should have complete freedom to debate every point and easily rebut every statement someone makes, while the defendant can only respond on his talk page, must depend on the graciousness of others to help him, and is barred from easily rebutting arguments on a point-by-point basis in real-time. It is a big disadvantage in a forum like CSN, where many different points and arguments are constantly being made by many different people. Indeed, points are frequently repeated by new participants who did not read all the discussion.

Though my experience with CSN is limited, my impression so far is that in certain controversial cases, you can get a cacophony of voices on one side of the issue that make it very difficult for the other side to be heard. I am guessing that these objections have been raised before, and that you have good answers to them. If you can refer me to answers written elsewhere that would be fine. Best and thanks, nadav 07:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I've posted to the thread there about defense. Basically I agree with you: I'd prefer not to block an editor while discussion is ongoing. Sometimes that's impossible because the editor has no intention of presenting a defense and abuses the opportunity, so arrangements often get made for the editor to post a defense to his or her own user talk page (which blocked editors may still edit). I've attempted to write some right of defense into banning policy but that attempt got overridden by other editors. You're welcome to raise your points at Misplaced Pages talk:Banning policy.

And please don't feel intimidated about posting to my user page. I'm just an editor who's been around a while and who happens to have the tools. Cheers, Durova 08:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I'll start reading tomorrow the lengthy discussion on that page, and will then hopefully repropose a "right to defend oneself" clause (or maybe "privilage," since as you say it should be revoked for abusers). Best, nadav 08:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's only absolutely revoked in extreme cases. If the editor needs to be blocked we do our best to accommodate a defense within the parameters of the block. Very rarely does the user's talk page need protection, and when that happens there's seldom much to discuss. Durova 08:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi - I haven't been spamming everyone's page with thanks, but I did want to thank you for your nomination and words of support in my recent RfA. The kind words and expression of trust meant a lot, especially coming from editors for whom I have so much respect. I hope to live up to it, and just wanted to say thanks again. MastCell 15:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration is as much fun as a root canal, but once in a while something positive grows out of it. Meeting you and supporting your bid for adminship was one of those occasions. Now let me nudge you over to WP:COIN and WP:SSP... ;) Durova 19:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Arrr...your opinion/input

Can you go to when you have a moment? There was an issue going on long before I visited the page, and by consensus and by various editors, an entry has been deleted. Yet, there is one editor, non registered, who consistently adds it and insists that it be added. The sentence is unsubstantiated, unsourced, and loaded. Any input you can give would be appreciated. I've warned, and warned each editor (whom I believe may be the same person) but they keep being hostile. You can plainly see the history of the conversation, and as stated, editors since February 2006 have been reverting it. Thanks! --Maniwar (talk) 19:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Wish you'd come to me before things heated up to this point, but good call about WP:RFC. I've semiprotected for two weeks. This looks like a new editor, even if possibly tendentious, and it's better to explain site standards before going to block warnings. Good luck resolving things. Durova 19:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Request

Your comments on CN were by and large very reassuring. I did leave a question for you following your last comment that referenced his block log, though, and since the discussion has now been closed by Tony there is no reason for you to answer it. I would appreciate it, however, if you did follow up on it, if you feel it is in the least valid, on the Arbitration page (or on my talkpage, if you so desire). Hornplease 22:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Taken by itself, a single violation of WP:CITE would hardly ever be bannable. Certainly that particular instance from PalestineRemembered wouldn't be. For an example of what could be bannable in itself I could pull up details from the Joan of Arc vandal investigation. That other fellow actually self-published his pet theories in an Adobe Acrobat file mocked up to mimic the look of a scholarly journal in order to push his POV OR on Misplaced Pages.

So for this present case, I think any account that's been blocked for four of seven months is one step away from banning. Maybe if the editor had taken some demonstrably positive step in the interim such as joining WP:ADOPT I'd have given more slack. His defense didn't recognize what I wanted to see, which is that Misplaced Pages tries to be a first stop for serious research. It's a lot of work to look up an old periodical - microfiche or interlibrary loan - and PalestineRemembered didn't appreciate that aspect of the issue. The POV pushers who deserve banning seldom demonstrate real respect for citation sources or for Misplaced Pages's readers: it's as if references were nothing more than a way of armoring an edit against assault. Fundamentally, that's not a sustainable way of building an encyclopedia.

If PalestineRemembered wanted to honor a Palestinian perspective there are much better ways of doing so. The most compelling book I've read on the subject is Raja Shehadeh's The Third Way, and of course I've sampled my share of Edward Said. I hope the people who sympathize with that editor's politics do their share to balance articles with solid citations to the best Palestinian authors. We're all human beings and Misplaced Pages as a project strives to be neutral. Durova 06:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your long response, which I believe deserves a considered reply.

I don't think it quite answers my concerns, which were about the editor's previous block log, which I see as punitive rather than preventative, but I understand and share your concerns about meticulous sourcing and misrepresentation of scholarship. On this occasion, though, and purely if you continue to be interested, I recommend that you look through this editor's edits, as I did when I first ran across the user yesterday. I have seen more than my share of unpleasant, single-issue POV-pushers in my time - and I maintain that nationalist editors with a sense of grievance are the worst - but this particular editor maintains a respect for such things as edit summaries. Also, unlike most of them, this editor does actually respect sourcing per se, which I fear contributed to his error with the Auckland Star, which as you say is disrespectful of genuine research.

Finally, if I had been blocked for four months out of seven, with really minimal pretext, when I first started - which I suppose even I could have been if I edited in certain articles - then I certainly would not have come back with improved politeness. I would have been convinced that WP was broken. (As it is I avoided logging on for years except when I wished to participate in an extended conversation.) This user came back improved, even if that was not likely given the misapplication of the block; but I did not see anyone offering to adopt him/her, and I am not even certain that it was recommended, or that the user learnt of the opportunity. In the devil-takes-the-hindmost hellhole that is the Arab-Israeli conflict on Misplaced Pages, I do not think anyone would have bothered, or thought that it was worthwhile. There will, people think, always be another. Hornplease 07:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Any blocked editor has the right to request an unblock review. None of these blocks were reduced so I accept them as legitimate. An editor who spends four months under block restrictions has plenty of time to read up on site procedures and policies. I started one avenue myself by founding Category:Eguor admins as a go-to list for editors who think they've gotten short shrift from Misplaced Pages processes and who don't want to be accused of admin shopping.

So in light of the shift in consensus at WP:CN I've supported arbitration. I still think, to be candid, that it's a fairly simple case. But something that garners this many differing views deserves a full hearing. Durova 07:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You're quite right that nobody unblocked. I remarked on that in my first post to the discussion at CN as an example of the validity of the block log as evidence; that was before Fayssal's post made me look more closely at the circumstances of the first two blocks. I should say that if I had been an uninvolved admin, even if I had thought the blocks unjustified, I would probably not have unblocked, and you are a braver man than I if you would have! Thank you for your time and attention.Hornplease 08:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, considering that I'm a female war veteran, I'm not sure how to take that braver man than I part. Let's hope arbitration sorts this out to the community's satisfaction. Durova 08:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Almost certainly still true, as I'm not brave at all:). Hornplease 08:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Miss Durova, Wow! You were in a war?! Which one? Are you okay? My daddy was also in the military! It makes ya wonder why people have to keep doing this to each other. Will people ever learn? Joan of Ark question asker below. :) --172.133.120.41 15:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies for the tardy reply: I was in the Global War on Terrorism. I joined because my uncle was a 9/11 survivor. Durova 19:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

COI charges

Your previous statements are being invoked as partial justification for a COI charge here, so you may want to let your views be known. Raymond Arritt 17:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I see that's already been handled. Durova 19:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: continuation of WP:ANI

Thank you for your comment, but tell me something:

If a person reports that three Muslim editors are violating WP:BLP on Ariel Sharon page, would that result in a few days of insults such as being called "antisemite", "immune to reason" or being put on "radar screen". Certainly not: that would have been acceptable, and the editors, if they were Muslim, wouldn't have mind that as well. I still can't believe we are arguing over a non-negative term, which from your POV is offensive.--Gerash77 20:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

And I find it hard to believe that, despite repeated assurances on my part and actual threads at this talk page where Muslim editors have sought my opinion as a neutral party, you continue to accuse me bigotry. You have no idea what my POV actually is. I strongly recommend you retract these offensive accusations. Durova 19:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

COIN on Connolley

I posted a second complaint on the COI Noticeboard on Connolley. I expected someone would show up magically like you did last time, but no one has. Is it unreasonable for me to ask you to take a look at Connolley's second offence? It is about the same information, but this time I posted it on the Hockey stick controversy page where other editors said it rightfully belonged. To me this seems an open and shut case, but someone has to make a decision. Will you do it? RonCram 01:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I've already speedy closed this discussion, as it was descending into wikilawyering and wasn't going to lead anywhere productive. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus, you deleted too early. I am certain Durova would have liked to express her opinion since she concluded the first case. I am not certain you even understand the issues. Your comments indicate that you do not. RonCram 01:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

RonCram has been highly disruptive. Whether he is right or wrong about the underlying content isn't the point. The COI guideline specifically warns not to use COI allegations to gain the upper hand in a content dispute. RonCram posted voluminous material on WP:COIN to litigate the content dispute, yet he only offered a single diff to substantiate the COI claim. That diff showed WilliamConnolley deleting a statement with a reference link to a .edu URL containing a ~, somebody's personal user space. What was there? A PDF reprint, probably a copyright violation, without any context. There was no way of knowing if this was a peer reviewed article, an advertorial, or an opinion piece. The publication has a website exclusively in Dutch language, so there is no easy way for us to verify anything about the source. Under these circumstances, deleting this questionable material wouldn't be a COI violation for any editor, no matter what their situation. The complaint was filed in bad faith. RonCram persists in his crusade against Connolley, in spite of warnings from three uninvolved, respected editors. My opinion is that RonCram needs to be stopped before he causes further harm to the project, since he obviously is unwilling to restrain himself. Jehochman / _✔ 03:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This was not a content dispute. I was trying uphold Durova's earlier conclusion. Connolley has completed disregarded Durova's statements. When I was told I needed to offer more than one diff, I posted four. The pdf I linked to is an English translation from a highly respected Dutch science magazine Natuurwetenschap & Techniek. The English translation is hosted on a website at the University of Guelph where Ross McKitrick is a professor. This is the first time anyone has raised any question about the copyright of the article. Such a question seems absurb on its face, but if that was a serious issue - information about the copyright can easily be obtained from the university. People have made some ridiculous claims that this Dutch science magazine is not a reliable source, but the fact is easy to establish. Go to Google Scholar and search for it or click this. But none of this really matters because these were not the reasons given by Connolley. He knows the magazine is reliable and he knows there is no problem with the copyright. Connolley (and his minions) have attempted to suppress valid information to protect his colleague. RonCram 05:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"I was trying uphold Durova's earlier conclusion." Res ipsa loquitor. Jehochman / _✔ 07:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus and Jehochman are both fine editors and I trust their judgement. I hope I'm correct in inferring from RonCram's requests that both sides of this dispute accept my neutrality. Durova 20:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

what to do at this point?

Armon still has not bothered to respond or acknowledge the attempts to deal with the microproblem or the macroproblem on the CEM page. Is there any way to speed up the process? csloat 09:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Even more troubling -- while Armon refuses to respond to CEM, he has been actively editing, including an extremely tendentious revert on another page in which he and I have been in revert wars in the past. As in his edits that went to CEM, he is deleting sourced and relevant material with cryptic and illogical explanations. I am tempted to restore the material he deleted, but I really don't want to get into another revert war with him. However, I do think this is an important aspect of the macroproblem -- his insistence on deleting sourced and relevant material that he doesn't agree with, often with deceptive or non sequitur reasoning (in this case, his reason for deleting the material is that he says it belongs in a different section. If that is true, why does he not move it to another section instead of deleting it, and initiating a revert war with the editor who added it?) I will reprint this statement on the CEM page so you can respond to it there, as it is relevant to the macroproblem that we need a solution to. csloat 01:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm rather close to closing the mediation. Durova 18:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What happens after that? csloat 20:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Most likely, you'd try to work things out until someone proposes arbitration. I consider it likely the Committee would accept the case. Durova 21:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

An earlier thread (above)

Due to exceptionally high traffic on your Talk page I’d like to make sure that you are going to take notice of my question above, so I'm posting an extra link to it here. Your input would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance. --Poeticbent  talk  13:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Replied above. Durova 18:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Triple Crown

Hey. With a DYK under my belt, I qualify for the level one triple crown. Evidence of one DYK, one GA, and one FA taken from the same topic for consistency: , , and . My userpage has a list of all my GA/FA/FT contribs if you need more evidence or different articles. Oh, and I'm not doing this as a self-nom because I'm an egomaniac; I don't want to make someone nominate me as a formality :) — Deckiller 15:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I wrote "Eyes of the Insane" to GA, and I also wrote Christ Illusion to FA and "Jihad" to FA. As concerns DYK's, here and here are DYK's I'm responsible for. I think this means I qualify for level one triple clown (I hope so), though I'm unsure. Thanks for the time by the way, and happy editing! LuciferMorgan 20:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Nikolai pavlyuk lenin in his working room.jpg

Hello Durova, an automated process has found an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, such as fair use. The image (Image:Nikolai pavlyuk lenin in his working room.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Durova/Archive 1. This image or media will be removed per statement number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. The image that was replaced will not be automatically deleted, but it could be deleted at a later date. Articles using the same image should not be affected by my edits. I ask you to please not readd the image to your userpage and could consider finding a replacement image licensed under either the Creative Commons or GFDL license or released to the public domain. Thanks for your attention and cooperation. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 02:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/PalestineRemembered

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/PalestineRemembered. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/PalestineRemembered/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/PalestineRemembered/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Srikeit 05:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Opinion and advice needed

Hi Durova. There is a kind of complicated issue between my hand. All details are found here at the AN/I MDS International / MDS America conflict bothering Misplaced Pages. I've done my best but i'd like to get your opinion on the matter and if it is time to go for an ArbCom case directly instead of wasting the community time. Thanks in advance. -- FayssalF - 13:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Durova. -- FayssalF - 19:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I wish I had time for more help than that. But you can always come to me with page protection requests. Durova 19:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

more from Anacapa

Hi Durova I was just contacted by another user (Jbolden1517) who's been having trouble with Anacapa on Talk:Shunning. Anacapa responded to my question (wherther hey were drop in editor or not) on my talk page with a long off-topic rant abou Maoism. I think there are elements of not assuming good faith in their response, as well as ranting on my talk-page. The words "you SEEM to be blind to the insane bullcrap and inane cowcrap (conservative, liberal or whatever) that prevails in the NAME of NPOV on Misplaced Pages" sounds like bad faith to me. I aksed Coelacan to have a look but I think she's a bit snowed under at the moment. Am I wrong or is there a case for at least warning Anacapa on NPOV grounds for their edits and WP:NPA and WP:AGF for their comments?

They have also made another traunch of edits to Feminism in the last 2 days - once again to the criticism sections - one particularly interesting bit of phrasing is "Feminist whistleblower, Christina Hoff-Sommers also shows how feminist misandry leads directly to misogyny by establishment feminists against (the majority of) women who love men in Who Stole Feminism: How Women Have Betrayed Women."

I also found a warning that Irishguy gave to one of Anacapa's IPs for POVPUSHing in November '06. I've deatiled it in the the report. Have you any advice on how best to proceed here. Should I respond to Anacapa or just WP:DENY?--Cailil 17:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's appropriate to give an NPOV warning. Thanks for your paitence. Durova 19:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

You're going to laugh when you read this but ... how should I phrase this warning? I was going to use the {{uw-npov1}} and add the diff and additional text ask Anacapa to "Please take note of the NPOV policy's guide to asserting opinions. Your characterization of the views is not conforming to the policy. I have not reverted your edits as I hope you will rewrite the information in accordance with NPOV" - is that the best thing to do or should I just use the template and the diff? Sorry for the question, I'm just a bit nervous of using the NPOV template--Cailil 23:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I left it myself. Durova 20:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Please protect the deer

The Deer article is in dire need of permanent semi-protection. Nearly every other edit is vandalism, and the other one is to revert it. -- Fyslee/talk 20:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I've given it six weeks of semiprotection. Usually we don't make these things permanent. Let me know if problems resume when this expires. Durova 20:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. It's irritating when everytime it pops up in my watchlist it's a waste of time to check what's going on. -- Fyslee/talk 20:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If this sort of thing happens elsewhere on your watchlist, don't hesitate to ask for page protection. It's a very simple check to confirm the need for protection and any sysop can implement it quickly. Durova 20:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

New sock of Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles?

You might remember the unblock discussion over ISOLA'd ELBA (talk · contribs), who you thought was a sock of Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles (talk · contribs) while I argued their only sin was handing out too many barnstars (to the wrong people). After unblock Isola continued working on userpage-type activities and also handed out lots of welcome templates, including one to a sock of SummerThunder. Isola recently had a bunch of their user pages deleted on MySpace grounds, but one, User:ISOLA'd ELBA/awards was just recreated by DaGrandPuba (talk · contribs). This person also edits video game articles, so it seems suspicious. I don't know Le Grand Roi all that well so I will leave handling DaGrandPuba to your judgment except to say please be sure before you decide to block. —dgies_c 06:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I was coming here to say something to you totally separately regarding this user. If you could take a look at Parma, Ohio: it has an edit war that has been (I kid you not) going on for 1.5 years. It's impossible for me to tell which are sockpuppets of User:Mycroft.Holmes and which are sockpuppets of his enemy (e.g., User:Mycroft.Holmz) (is this Le Grand?). It makes my head hurt just to look at it, but both users have a ridiculous history of sockpuppetry and going anonymous to edit war (e.g., User:Dianestover = User:164.107.223.217, as recent history shows), as well as spelling out their arguments in the edit summaries. This page has such an awful history of sockpuppetry that I'm tempted to bring it before Arbcom just to have them put a 1RR rule on the page or something (yes, I've been watching this page before I had this account, and I've been watching these same antics forever). The Evil Spartan 16:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I strongly recommend you both support the revival of WP:RFI - too many people post appeals to me directly and Misplaced Pages loses out when real life keeps me busy. I've had to cut down on my volunteer commitment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Durova (talk • contribs)

Actually, I've been thinking about that myself. On my previous account (yes, I had one), I actually !voted for deleted. It took about 3 seconds to realize this was bad, as ANI became clogged with reports which were so complex, and which everyone ignored. Now half the stuff on ANI doesn't even get a response. And it's all my fault! The Evil Spartan 20:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm very glad to learn about your change of heart. What that board really lacked was enough good editors to keep up with the work. I've been training a team of Wikisleuths since then, a few of whom have gotten sysopped, and hope to revive RFI when we have enough good people to run it. If you run across any promising candidates please send them my way. Regards, Durova 21:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion#Template:COI and Template:COI2

Shaking my head. People need to spend a few minutes in the trenches before suggesting disarmament. Jehochman / _✔ 16:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I've proposed WP:SNOW on the discussion. Deletionists really ought to take a few minutes and ask before putting things on the block. Thanks for the heads up. Durova 20:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Triple crown

Hi there, when have you set the date for my coronation as the next Tsar of Bulgaria? :) Here's my proof of noble descent:

• DYK: That's easy, I've got something like 20, you can find notifying tags all over my user talk. For the sake of the historical topic, Medieval Bulgarian royal charters may be a good choice.
• FA: Significantly contributed to (a bit like co-wrote) Ivan Alexander of Bulgaria and entirely rewrote Simeon I of Bulgaria.
• GA: Quite humble in that respect, I only have one: Banat Bulgarians. Sadly, I need one more to ascend to the throne of the Bulgarian Empire.

Royal greetings, Todor→Bozhinov 21:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Joan of Arc

Hi! I don't know if it's okay to ask questions like this hear as I'm not much of an editor (i dont know what i can add and im not online all that often), but I see that you edit Joan of Arc related articles and so, well, maybe you could help answer a question: we watched a movie in class the other day that implied that Joan of Arc was raped by guards during her trial. It was some older movie, but anyway, I heard elsewhere that she was a virgin, so was this true? If so, that's absolutely horrible! Anyway, I was just curious if you knew. Again, I'm sorry if we're not supposed to ask these kinds of questions or not, but I dint see anything about by taking a quick glance on the article (sorry if its there and I glossed over!), and I was just really curious. I'll check back on your page in a few days to see if you responded, but if not, no big deal, just curious and you seem to be some kind of expert on her, which is cool! :) Thanks either way! :) A fellow Joan of Arc fan! --172.144.16.113 23:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure Durova is about just now (I think she's pretty busy offline) but I don't expect she minds you asking questions about articles she's contributed to.

Our article does have a mention of this; it's in the first line of the Execution section. Apparently she was sexually assaulted and may have been subjected to attempted rape.

In future, you'll probably get a quicker response to questions like this from the Reference Desk, in this case the Humanities desk, which takes History questions. I hope this response is helpful - check back here a little later to see if Durova can flesh out my answer with a better explanation. All the best, --YFB ¿ 23:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the fast reply! Sorry I missed that in the article and that’s really too bad that such a thing would happen to such a strong woman (or to anybody for that matter!). The movie our teacher showed kinda just had a couple guards look at her funny, but you could tell something was up! Well, thanks again! Maybe when I’m older in a few years, I’ll get an account and have something to contribute, ‘cus I think aol gives us new numbers every time we log on otherwise :(. Is there some kind of age requirement for Misplaced Pages? Is this site safe? I’ve seen some nasty stuff on some other pages . . . Well, gotta run. Thanks again! Still a Joan of Arc fan! --172.133.120.41 15:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The nullification trial that took place a couple of decades after her death has some conflicting testimony about sexual abuse. We can say with certainty that English soldiers guarded her, although normal inquisitorial procedure would have been to use an ecclesiastical prison that would have had female guards. So the opportunity for abuse certainly existed. One nullification trial witness admitted that he had touched her breasts and that, in response, she shoved him away. The point of disagreement is whether the abuse went beyond that level of inappropriate touching.

Part of the context to consider here is political and economic and even military: the English government was financing her trial and the trial lasted far longer than they had anticipated. The Duke of Bedford also delayed offensive military campaigning that season until after her execution, either because his superstitious troops feared they could not win while she remained alive or because too many of his military commanders had been captured the previous year and he planned to lead the troops himself. So the English government pressured the ecclesiastical judges to bring the proceeding to a speedy conclusion. One of the nullification trial witnesses asserted that a serious sexual assault occurred shortly after her abjuration and that the assailant was a high ranking English nobleman. The law prevented them from executing her until she relapsed, so perhaps rape (or its threat or attempt) was one of the tactics used to hasten her death. Durova 20:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear miss (mrs?) Durova, thank you very much for the detailed response!If i ever do get an account and feel competent enough to edit articles when i'm a little older, i'll keep you and yummifruitbat in mind of good wikipedians to ask for help. Enjoy the summer! :) Joan of Arc asker! --172.130.224.152 18:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

See, I had a feeling Durova would make a better job of it! :-) By the way, I meant to address the other part of your question. There's no age restrictions on Misplaced Pages; making an account is free and you can get one at any age - it'll help you to keep track of any questions you ask here or at the Reference Desks, for one thing. Some of our most prolific administrators are in their mid-teens. Misplaced Pages is probably as safe as many other websites (we ask that minors restrict the information they disclose about themselves for their own protection) but it isn't censored for younger users, so you may come across strong language, nudity and sexual topics. There's a very broad range of subject areas which don't include that sort of content, so if you exercise the same level of caution and common sense as you'd use in other parts of the internet, you can keep away from most "nasty stuff". You don't have to write whole articles or be very knowledgeable about a particular topic to get involved, either. There's plenty of editing tasks (spelling fixes, adding images, formatting and cleaning up vandalism, for example) which don't require any specialist knowledge. We'd welcome your contributions whenever you feel ready. Thanks for your questions - if you have any others (about Misplaced Pages or anything else, with the possible exception of JoA), you can always ask them at my talk page. All the best, --YFB ¿ 19:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again and I hope you're enjoying the extended Memorial Day weekend! Go Joan! --172.144.146.32 23:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Jumping to conclusions, torches and pitchforks

I think we need to emphasize the need to investigate COI and SPAM reports fully before jumping to conclusions. There's a lot of real abuse, so we need to be careful not to mistake ignorance for malice. See this one. Jehochman / _✔ 07:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Durova 20:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

CEM

Hi, Durova. What will happen then? If Tajik would stay be blocked indefinitely, would this mean that both the ArbCom and CEM be closed? Actually, both cases never started. What do you recommend? Am i allowed to continue editing normally from now on? Regards. E104421 08:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, I'd like the status on the CEM clarified, since if CEM is closed, arbitration will proceed. - Penwhale | 19:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, CEM is closed. The case request no longer qualifies because of the sockpuppetry. To the best of my knowledge arbitration would go forward, but that's up to the Committee. Durova 20:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Huh, we lost the last chance to discuss the conflicts. I'd like to thank you for all your patience, help and hard work. I'm rather impressed your willingness to solve the disputes. Thank you again. Regards. E104421 18:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka might be able to help with web-related article?

Do you think your friend User:Elonka would be willing to look at Search engine optimization and leave comments at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Search engine optimization? I need more opinions about the reliability of online sources to help overcome the last objection of my friend User:SandyGeorgia. Jehochman / _✔ 21:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Question about Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles

I'm trying to verify a comment left on Misplaced Pages:Deceased Wikipedians about Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles. While I've removed the comment pending investigation, could you e-mail me about Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles's status, particularly the block on the account. In particular, I'm trying to determine if the comment at User_talk:Le_Grand_Roi_des_Citrouilles#Message_for_Durova_and_BigHaz is real or tied in with sockpuppet usage. Best, --Alabamaboy 22:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

That's very strange; I've semiprotected the deceased Wikipedians list for two weeks. Contact me via e-mail if your question has deeper ramifications. Durova 19:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No deeper ramifications. Someone placed a comment about Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles maybe being dead on Misplaced Pages:Deceased Wikipedians and I was trying to determine the veracity of that. Best, --Alabamaboy 19:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Triple Crown

Hi, I've only just spotted your triple crown & wonder if you can self nominate? If so:

• DYK 18 so far - see my talk page recent ones include; Observatory, Bristol, Royal Fort Red Lodge Museum, Bristol & Arno's Court Triumphal Arch
• GA 4 - include Chew Stoke, Chew Magna & Kennet and Avon Canal
• Featured:
  • Articles: Chew Valley Lake, Chew Valley & Mendip Hills
  • Lists: List of Sites of Special Scientific Interest in Somerset, Locks on the Kennet and Avon Canal & Grade I listed buildings in Bristol

If you need more info let me know.— Rod 09:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Dereks1x

Hi Durova. As someone familiar with the Dereks1x situation, I think your input would be useful here. Thanks. · jersyko talk 01:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Imperial triple Crown

G'day, greast idea for an award; I'm nominating myself for:

• 17 DYKs (so take your pick - but last two were Omphalotus nidiformis and Actinotus helianthi)
• 2 GAs (Diplodocus - did a whole bunch of editing before it was GA'ed in mid 2006, Kereru)
• a few FAs, but I'll stick with Banksia integrifolia and Stegosaurus as the ones I contributed most to (though I actually nominated neither on the FA list, there its Triceratops and Diplodocus

I can supply diffs etc. if required. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 05:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

CEM on Cole (again)

We could really use your help (again) on the CEM on Cole, on the main page if possible. Am I missing something here? csloat 07:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Triple crown?

Does it count if two or more are the same? (I could get through with V. thapsus XD)

• DYK: Common Milkweed ()
• GA: Verbascum thapsus ()
• F: Image:Hippo skull dark.jpg () or Verbascum thapsus ()

User:tompw apparently think I was a significant contributor in getting List of recordings preserved in the United States National Recording Registry featured, so I guess I only need some work before I can try for an imperial crown. Keep an eye out for Cornus canadensis! Circeus 11:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

 Done cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

My userpage

Hi Durova. As you may recall, some time ago you protected my userpage, and I just now realized that this prevents me from editing. Can you please fix this? Burntsauce 21:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually your user page has been unprotected since last month. Durova 20:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Possible article?

Is there any rule that forbids this from becoming a regular article/list?:

• Flora and fauna of Greenland

The title can be changed if necessary. Other encyclopedias have such galleries as a resource. Please reply on my talk page. -- Fyslee/talk 07:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

On the surface of it I don't see any problem with this. Durova 20:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles

I noticed that you indefblocked User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles, he seems very ill and may die soon. Why not pardon all his wrongdoings before and honorably rehabilitate this user as an act of compassion (a man possibly on deathbed, please!), or if he has already died, unblock him posthumously and symbolically? Wooyi 17:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Wooyi,

First off, let me apologize to Durova for posting this message on her talk page. I am not trying to evade my block by doing so, but I felt it absolutely necessary to respond somehow to Wooyi as I was made aware of this editor's concerns for me. Anyway, if you see my talk page, I have updated it accordingly to indicate that my health has drastically improved. That's not to say that I don't still have some problems (I can no longer eat nuts, popcorn, seeds, corn, berries, etc. and my stomach doesn't look too good), but I seem to be over the really dangerous problems. I sincerely appreciate your kind efforts and concerns, as you seem to be a really good and kind person, but I do NOT expect to be dying any time soon. I am completely out of the hospital at this point. Thus, if you wish to discuss anything further with me, please do so on my talk page. Again, I'm truly sorry for using an anonymous IP to post this on your page, Durova, as I'm doing my best to avoid creating any new accounts (I have not created anything after the Horace Horatius one) or anything else in the hopes that maybe several months from now you'll give me one more chance as you suggested a month or so ago, but I wanted to save you and Wooyi unnecessary trouble on my account as I should be okay. Again, your concern and efforts are admirable and really touching and I feel bad to have to use a friend's computer to reply and I hope doing so in this circumstance won't anger Durova too much, but I hope that this clarifies my situation and wish you all a pleasant day. Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles. --172.145.228.116 18:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This is egregious. Le Grand Roi, not only are you trying to evade your block, you actually have evaded it by posting to this page. You ought to have used e-mail. This recent bit about Category:Deceased Wikipedians and some supposedly grave illness means nothing more than last fall's stunt about that supposed six week business trip you claimed to be taking last fall while you actually started that black hand sockpuppet and edited through the Ohio State University IP address. Your credibility is nil. In response to this attempt to abuse the good faith Wikipedians might extend toward a legitimate illness I am doubling the schedule for my offer of reinstatement: stay off Misplaced Pages for eight months, starting today, and I'll consider unblocking you. If you violate this offer you can restart that calendar from the date of your next edit and set it to one year. Durova 20:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Duvora, please reconsider your apathy. A person is physically ill and may die at any moment. Let's at least offer some consoling measures, please. Wooyi 20:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

We assume good faith in absence of evidence to the contrary. This person has consistently lied - that strong word is accurate here - and long ago squandered any credibility. Per Le Grand Roi's own admission at this thread, the "condition" (ahem) is considerably better now. I believe a few weeks ago he or she claimed to be dead? Move along, nothing to see here. Durova 20:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

he/she didn't claim to be dead...as a dead person can't talk unless you are a psychic. The user said he/she was very ill and may die in his/her talk page post. And now it may be better but still... You know, compassion toward the sick and suffering is always important in any societies. Wooyi 22:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Submissions for Review

Look, somebody is using my talk page as a precursor to Misplaced Pages:Submissions for Review (WP:SFR) Jehochman / _✔ 18:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand this? Durova 20:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

We were discussing the possibility of a new notice board. Somebody came to my talk page and asked me to review material for addition to the encyclopedia. Obviously there is a demand for this service. Now, how do we take care of that? Jehochman 23:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

My RfA

Imperial Triple Crown application

Hey, I'd like to apply for an Imperial Triple Crown. Here are my credentials:

• Did You Know Articles
  • Standard Oil of Kentucky — November 26, 2006
  • Gettysburg Cyclorama — May 8, 2007
• Good Articles
  • NFL Playoffs — February 22, 2007
  • Gettysburg Cyclorama — May 24, 2007
  • U.S. Route 40 — May 26 2007
• Featured Articles
  • Timeline of chemistry — April 12, 2007
  • New England Patriots seasons — April 21, 2007

I have 3 GA's because I didn't know if you needed 6 distinct articles, and Gettysburg Cyclorama was both a DYK and a GA, so I waited until I had 6 articles to qualify. Thanks a bunch for managing this program. I know people poo-poo things like Barnstars and this, but I think that recognition programs are beneficial and you do a great job. Later! --Jayron32|talk|contribs 00:55, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for submitting that. My Misplaced Pages time is at a premium right now but I'll get around to those triple crown awards shortly. Cheers, and keep making those great contributions! Durova 20:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

(Holds hand up and fidgets) - don't forget Circeus and me :) cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 03:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't mean to be pushy, because you DO do very important work here at wikipedia, but it looks like triple crown appilcations are getting backlogged. There's half a dozen or so on your talk page. Again, thanks for all you do! Just don't want you to forget about us! --Jayron32|talk|contribs 19:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Amazing Facts RFC

I began an RFC on this article. I would welcome your review of the dispute. If you are an sda however please say so upfront. My opponent has been questioned on other sda articles about his bias. I can't see how he can complain if I quote Amazing Facts itself. Thank you.70.108.103.178 02:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

So far the RFC is just myself and maniwar. He seems determined to make sure his POV prevails. The article is now looking more like a tool for proslytizing. He has been accused of POV on sda issues before by others. How can more people participate in the RFC? We need someone who is not an sda to take a look at it.70.108.103.178 03:25, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I wish you would stick to the issue, you continue to lash out at me and personally attack me. I am asking you to deal with the issue and again refrain from coming after me. I encouraged you to call for rfc, which you did. Had I been POV, I would not have cared and would not have informed you, several times, to call for rfc. Additionally, this one sentence you want in, has been deleted by numerous editors, for over a year now for many reasons. As far your accusation that I am charged with POV by other editors, you will quickly see that those issues were resolved and the editor who called me POV, was banned a couple times for different reasons, mainly his POV. So, do not fabricate. I again, say, focus on getting others to comment and leave me out of it. Focus on learning how to edit in wikipedia, and also go to wp:rfc and ask them to comment if you want others to give input. No one is commenting, see my note to you on the article's talk page, because you have not posted in the proper places asking for comment. Anyway, happy posting. --Maniwar (talk) 00:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Yet another Anacapa IP

Hi Durova, I hope you're keeping well. I've just spotted another new IP being used by Anacapa: 128.111.95.45 has made the same type of POVPUSH edits to the Project Gender studies talk page. The IP is in Anacapa's range, it is in Santa Barbara, CA (like the others its from University of California, Santa Barbara) & its using the same language and style as Ancapa to edit. Below are some examples of the POVPUSH on May 27th & 28th:

Tagging Project Gender studies as POV again

On Project Gender studies talk page

about Project Gender studies on Project reform

On Gender studies

POVPUSH on Sex differences "sections relating to gender-feminist propaganda about gender-differences that are both POV and have nothing to do with sex differences. This confusion is what feminists have been banking on for political power plays as they pervert and the meaning of both terms."

same again on Talk:Antifeminism here 128.111.95.45 answers comments made to 128.111.95.237 (an Anacapa address).

Since you warned Anacapa's account this is third POVPUSH by this editor. Is it time to consider making a report to WP:AN?--Cailil 22:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Durova, you might want to look at this post by Anacapa. They used IP 209.129.49.65 to make it, which is an IP thay have previously used for months, it's also clear from the text that it is Anacapa making the post. It was made after their comments below but before your reply.

The post was to talk shunning, and its basically a soapboxing statement.

Some editors on wiki gang in parochial interests groups to censor, silence and slander editors who are 'problematic', politically incorrect or otherwise 'difficult' for the gang to control. This is the kind of conduct one sees in totalitarian tyrannies. Shunning is likely to build the reputation wikipedia already is gaining as a place where Maoist mobs rule.

Maybe I'm being harsh but isn't also a personal attack and a serious breach of WP:AGF?--Cailil 16:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Matrix17

Hello. You just unblocked this user in a seemingly drive-by fashion with apparently no discussion with anyone. I am just checking that you are, of course, aware that this user was blocked for a little more than just creating one article and that the block was revisted on ANI a week ago, where unanimous opinion was that she should stay blocked? – Steel 19:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I explained this situation to Durova and left it up to her to decide what to do. The user was blocked upon a faulty assumption. Then an unblock request was declined without explanation. Yes, this user has a history of problems. Hopefully they will take Durova's advice and join WP:ADOPT. If that fails, and you feel the user needs a community patience ban, please follow the necessary steps.

I don't think this discussion is a consensus, because it didn't address the issue of the article surviving AfD. That issue was finally raised here, but the discussion was deleted before anyone had a chance to comment. To me, this seems fundamentally unfair, which is why I investigated and reported this incident to Durova. Jehochman 19:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

What about this discussion where you yourself said "I am fine with the above resolution. Steel, thank you for blocking the sock"? – Steel 19:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm an admin trainee. I reported the facts to Durova and she made the final decision. Jehochman 19:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I see. So, you told Durova about the above discussion and she went against that? – Steel 19:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I did not show that thread to Durova, because it occurred after I emailed her my report. She was away for a few days. Sorry, I am monitoring a lot of things around here, so I don't rely on memory, and I did not see that discussion when I went back through the record and gave her a second update. Are you feeling upset about this? Jehochman 20:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not so much upset about someone reversing a block which wasn't even mine. Rather, confused that the person did so against consensus, without discussion and without full information. – Steel 20:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The only harm I've done is to occupy a few minutes of your time. Sorry for that. The block can always be restored, but shall we wait a little bit to see if Durova has thoughts? We don't know what investigating she may have done, or what her reasoning was. If Matrix17 steps out of line in the meanwhile, feel free to reblock. Durova specifically stated this in her comments to me. Jehochman 20:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I reblocked Matrix upon learning that Durova wasn't informed of the most recent ANI dicussion and so probably wasn't aware of this. This can, of course, be reversed if necessary, but perhaps after Durova explains her reasoning which is currently elusive and not obvious. – Steel 20:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually I was aware of the ANI discussion from last week. On a purely technical level I can't justify keeping an editor blocked for six months for creating a "non-notable" biography that turned out to survive AFD. I thought that reasoning was clear from my post and, to my knowledge, no other putative violation had occurred since the expiration of the previous block. I have no intention of wheel warring, however, so how about a middle ground of restoring editing privileges if Matrix17 enters WP:ADOPT?

BTW: in future, please contact me directly before reversing my actions based upon assumptions about how much I know. I believe WP:AGF requires you to suppose that I have adequate information. The onus shouldn't fall upon me to refer to or disclose e-mails, since that could compromise sensitive discussion. Durova 23:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually all AGF requires me to do is assume that you're acting in what you see as the best interests of the project, which I have never questioned. Also, I did contact you directly; this is your talk page.
Incidentally, I didn't reblock matrix immediately - I only did that after Jehochman above indicated that he didn't inform you of the most recent ANI discussion. I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that you were therefore unaware of it given your relative inactivity over the past few days.
On a lighter note, contrary to popular belief I have no serious objection to Matrix being unblocked. I hope you appreciate my concern, however, when a drive-by user emails a totally uninvolved admin and she unblocks against consensus. If you or someone from WP:ADOPT is willing to keep an eye on Matrix, great, unblock. – Steel 23:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately my online time is minimal and the unblock happened before I had a chance to respond to your post. I'll leave a note at Matrix's user page about the program. The ball's in his or her court. Regards, Durova 19:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the inspiration

Your WP:CN inspired me and several other editors to create a Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Any advice how to advertise it and streamline its operations would be much welcomed.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Libelous warning

You sent an unspecific warning about POV problems to me. This is a cheap shot unless you provide some sort of specific and constructive criteria for your concerns. I work on loaded issues where politicized mob ideologues make the rules. To take issue with mob POV is no cause for concern here. If you have genuine POV concerns please offer them. Otherwise please spend your time tackling the truly ugly personal cheap shots that people use against people like me who bring in content that counters the credulous content that prevails on a Maoist Mob rule encyclopedia. I suggest you read Fast Company's cover story on Jimmy Wales and his proud red bandana to see that I am (as usual) sourcing my pov's. Anacapa 02:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Cailil has provided an excellent and amply documented report. Bear in mind that your post treads on the margins of a legal threat, which I am choosing to treat leniently. Your speculations about my political leanings make me chuckle: it's no secret at Misplaced Pages that I'm a United States veteran of the War on Terrorism. When I see red bandanas I think Bloods, not Maoists. Durova 23:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Triple crown stuff

Nobleeagle (talk · contribs) (retired)

• Cricket World Cup - FA
• Indian cricket team - GA
• Vikram Singh - DYK

Hesperian (talk · contribs)

• Banksia brownii, Banksia integrifolia, Banksia epica, Yagan - FA
• The Atlas of Australian Birds - GA
• Tryal Rocks

Moondyne (talk · contribs) - see User:Moondyne/contributions

Nishkid64 (talk · contribs)

• Samuel Adams - FA
• Lee Smith (baseball) - GA
• What's the Story - DYK, many others

Idleguy (talk · contribs)

• Kargil War - FA
• Atlantique Incident - GA
• Yusuf Adil Shah - DYK

There are likely heaps more.....There are many guys who just skip GA and go straight to lots and lots of FAs, eg Nichalp, Rama's Arrow, PDH etc, all of whom have many DYKs also. Blnguyen (cranky admin anniversary) 03:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Admin coach

Hey, I saw your post on the Misplaced Pages:Admin coaching/Requests discussion page and it looks like you might do some interesting work here on WP. I'd be very grateful if you'd let me know what all it entails. Thanks--Helgers7 12:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Glad you've dropped by! I specialize in complex investigations, doing my best to keep Misplaced Pages free of manipulation by ideological or profit-driven editors. A summary of one of my cases is available at User:Durova/Complex vandalism at Joan of Arc.

This week I'm just keeping my head above water. If you'd like to plunge in then paddle over to WP:COIN or WP:SSP and start looking into the requests. Most of the time these things are pretty straightforward, but there's no telling when they'll get really interesting. Durova 23:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Talk Page Vandalism

An editor erased 30% of your talk page so I reverted it to keep things in order for others who may wish to comment. Jehochman 15:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

And that editor is, in all likelihood, a sockpuppet of a banned user. I'll describe why offline if you like. Durova 23:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

If you like. Somebody was defending him on my talk page. Jehochman 23:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Happy News

Search engine optimization . SandyGeorgia was extremely helpful. Thank you for the motivation. Jehochman 04:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations! Durova 19:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank You

Thank you and Armedblowfish will adopt me when he fixes the problems with his server. -PatPeter 19:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. I have a standing offer to any formerly banned editor that I'll award the Barnstar of Resilience for starting a new article that gets highlighted at Template:Did you know?. If you'd really like to thank me, go earn that barnstar. Happy editing! Durova 19:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

WP triple crown

I just found User:Durova/Triple crown winner's circle when I submitted John J. Bernet as a DYK suggestion today. I think I've got the necessary requirements for this recognition.

DYK

• American Car and Foundry; 2004-12-03
• Bourbonnais train accident; 2005-01-29
• Ralph Budd; 2005-02-24
• Pioneer Zephyr; 2005-02-26
• Matthew Baird; 2005-04-21
• Franklin B. Gowen; 2005-03-06
• John B. Jervis; 2005-03-11
• Iowa Interstate Railroad; 2005-05-25
• William Barstow Strong; 2005-06-03
• Cyrus K. Holliday; 2005-07-06
• Ginery Twichell; 2005-07-17
• Timken 1111; October 2005
• El Gobernador; 2006-01-23
• Scott Special; 2006-05-13
• California Southern Railroad; 2006-07-12
• There have been others where I did not get a notice on my talk page.

GA

• Dakota, Minnesota and Eastern Railroad; 2005-10-23
• Scott Special; 2006-05-12
• California Southern Railroad; 2006-07-23
• There have been others that have since been delisted, but these three remain on the GA list today

FA

• John Bull (locomotive); 2004-12-21
• Franklin B. Gowen; 2005-03-19
• Pioneer Zephyr; March 2005
• Rogers Locomotive and Machine Works; 2005-10-27

Featured Portal

• Portal:Trains; 2006-01-04

My article creation rate has slowed as I work through Category:Unassessed rail transport articles, and update Portal:Trains, but there will definitely be more on the way. Thanks. Slambo (Speak) 14:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Hotpotatoes

He created his account at 12:56 pm Eastern (9:56 your time), and his only edit is to the community ban discussion on Anacapa. I smell a sock ...Blueboy96 17:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Put in a Checkuser request--he's already been blocked, but want to cement it.Blueboy96 21:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

 Likely. C'est fini, je pense.Blueboy96 22:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The enforcement part of CEM

Hi Durova - please see my last comment on the from about a week ago. Is there any actual enforcement to the community enforceable mediation? Will there be any consequences to Armon's stalling of the process, or incentive for him to continue it? It really seems ridiculous that we are still stalled months later on minor wording issues in the "microproblem" or that he has not even had to take seriously my comments and propositions regarding the "macroproblem." I realize the debate seems tedious, but it affects a lot of the other articles as well (currently MEMRI, but I have been reluctant to edit on any Middle East-related topics as a result of this). I hope there's something that can be done other than simply throwing up our hands and saying the mediation was a failure. csloat 19:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

user page

Hi - how can I get this user page changed? This user, I believe, is another sock of Dereks1x, but he seems to have left so I am not pursuing it at this time. But I don't think I should have to put up with this wording on his user page. Thanks Tvoz |talk 22:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Non-free use disputed for Image:National Front.gif

Thanks for uploading Image:National Front.gif. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read carefully the instructions at Misplaced Pages:Non-free content and then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our Criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

COI Templates.

Hi, I'm sending you a message because of your involvement with the Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_May_18#Template:COI_and_Template:COI2 discussion. The result of the TfD was no-consensus, but there was a significant expressed consensus for editing the templates to bring them into line with good practice. Unfortunately this has not happened, and the templates have been left pretty much in the state they were before the TfD. Would you like to assist in bringing these templates in line with good practice? --Barberio 16:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

If I had more time I'd be glad to help. Try posting a request at the talk page of WP:COIN. Durova 23:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello

Hello. I'm thinking of using Misplaced Pages:Community enforceable mediation but for the mediation to work, we need a mediator who is willing to involve himself/herself, review all the evidence, and make a final remedy decision. Would you like to be that mediator? I'd really appreciate it. If you would like more information please feel free to ask. Thanks.Hajji Piruz 00:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your interest in the program. Offline business is taking up most of my time these days. I suggest you talk to Navou. Best regards, Durova 02:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.Hajji Piruz 14:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Mop handling coaching

Ya, I was hoping to get some pointers on how to handle a mop, should I actually be given one. Pointers please? :D - Penwhale | 11:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC) (as in, can you give me a few more tips apart from what you had above? Finals overwhelmed me.)

It will probably be a couple of weeks before I have time. Hope you can be patient. As you can see above, even my triple crowns are backlogged. Durova 20:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Unblock user

Matrix17 has been blocked against your will by steel again. And matrix17 really doesnt deserve to be threated this way ´he contributes to wikipedia in a nice way. Please unblock user. Have a nice wikiday...

I'll presume this unsigned comment from a throwaway account is either Matrix17 or a meatpuppet: actually I didn't reblock you. Another sysop did that. We've agreed to unblock you again if you join the WP:ADOPT mentorship program, which you can do by cutting and pasting a template to your user space. You can post to your own user space during the block. When you find a mentor, send them my way and I'll take care of the unblock. Best wishes, Durova 23:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Matrix17's talk page is protected so he or she can't edit it. Vints 06:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Isarig's comments on csloat/armon

Please feel free to refactor my comments there, as is your wont, if you feel them to be unproductive. From my vantage point Isarig's contribution to that mediation effort is anything but productive and I responded to them as I believed appropriate. However, I know that another new voice coming in can often further complicate this kind of process so I apologize if my comments do so. Unless they become decidedly more productive I'll be ignoring Isarig's further posts, so please excuse me if I don't respond to whatever issues he might raise in posts containing insults or personal attacks. Honest thanks! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please note that Isarig (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been modifying my comments on the mediation page by inserting his comments inside my own(, ), reverting despite my repeated objections. I see it as a disruptive act on his part - one which I've asked him twice not to repeat. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Triple crown winner's circle

Do you take nominations for this? Or is this just something you award people as you stumble upon them? -RunningOnBrains 01:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright, as I did not bother to read the rest of your talk page first, I'd like to nominate both myself and User:Thegreatdr. Both I and he have two FA's and multiple GA's and DYK's. -RunningOnBrains 01:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Could you list the specific articles for those nominations? Thanks for your interest (I'm trying to catch up with the triple crown backlog atm). Durova 23:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Brunei

Hey, what's Brunei like to visit? yalbik 05:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Very hot, very humid. Typical rain forest climate. One of the world's few absolute monarchies. Traditionally the people live in villages by the rivers. Some still do (see Water Village (Brunei)). An old local saying is that they'll never set foot on land until they're buried in it. The Sultan hasn't been able to persuade them to move so he's given them electricity, schools, a mosque, and a hospital on the main water village. I visited it by water taxi and sampled the local tea and pastries.

In other areas where flooding destroyed smaller villages the sultan built new villages with first world architecture and amenities (and that particularly remind me of California stucco housing developments). When the villagers resisted moving the sultan gave them the homes for free. The country doesn't have much private enterprise becuse the sultan is a generous employer, but at the current rate of drilling they'll run out of oil in about twenty-five years.

Fortunately, while the oil money lasts, they've had no need to damage their environment and nearly 90% of the country remains virgin rain forest. The country is on the island of Borneo, the only place in the world where orangutans live. When someone asked about a zoo our guide pointed to the window and smiled. "Our whole country is a zoo." So I didn't get to see the orangutans, but I supppose the orangutans weren't especially curious to see me. I've got a few other anecdotes about the place that are probably better to share by e-mail. Durova 20:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Triple Crown eligibility

If I remember correctly, you mentioned that the good article could be the same as the featured article if these steps were accomplished sequentially. If so, I have search engine optimization as my WP:GA and WP:FA, and Mahalo.com as my WP:DYK.Jehochman 15:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Durovina

This user copied to his/her user page part of my own userpage, claiming that she/he uploaded images that he/she did not. Do you think it's appropriate? --Ghirla 14:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the strange comment on this user's page, or the very peculiar list of user edits, including lots of page moves. This looks like a sock of a banned user. Reported at WP:ANI. Jehochman 14:25, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I see, thanks. Durova 20:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XV (May 2007)

The May 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 14:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Imperial Triple Crown nom

Hello, I'm here to claim the second round.

• DYK: There are a lot to choose from at User:Howcheng/DYK, but I'll go with the latest one: Edward F. Boyd.
• GA: I now have four under my belt. We used Rancho Camulos last time. Let's go with the related topic Ramona.
• FP: I believe Image:Crops Kansas AST 20010624.jpg has not been submitted yet.

Thanks. howcheng {chat} 23:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

An old friend?

Check this out. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

vandelism on Madison West High School entry

I believe Shmoogle728 has vandalized the Madison West High school wikipedia entry. Look at the user's edit to the Strongest Man Competition, and then the claim about this person being a freshman at Madison West High School.

request for a dispute clarification if you would agree on an informal procedure

Greetings, I've found your posts in talk section of user http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Cailil, so I believe you might be able to solve the situation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Lost_Angel "personal attacks on User:Edgarde" section (last one there).

• Situation is: - I got a warning which I don't agree with at all and my posts in discussion sections are constantly stalked and scrutinized by this user.
• I would like to request your supreme intervention to pull the warning and encourage the user to stop stalking and scrutinizing my posts.
• more information is in the body of the message in question - I have an arbitrary court hearing form filled up, so please read it for clarification.

Thank you and sorry for taking your time with this.Lost Angel 14:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Inquiry

In your view, Kent Hovind- yes or no to allowing courtesy deletion if he requested it? JoshuaZ 21:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Just butting in here.... Hovind may be violating NPOV by suggesting deletion. He seems to be the victim of the Law of Unintended Consequences, which applies to all articles and all subjects, regardless of who started the article. He has no say in the matter now, other than to correct actual libel. If we allow people to cover-up their misdeeds by deleting uncomfortable articles at their request, we are aiding and abetting misuse of Misplaced Pages. We often think of Misplaced Pages being misused to promote a person or damage a person, but it also works the other way around if we allow the person to control what is written about them. As long as it isn't libelous and is well sourced, we should keep it. IMHO. -- Fyslee/talk 21:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi...keep up the great work and keeping this mess straight.

Thank You

It looks like my Request for Admin has closed successfully at (58/8/2). Your support is a thing I'm very grateful for. I consider it my duty to try to live up to the trust that you and others have shown in me. And regarding our discussions, trust me, I will definitely be thinking things several times over before I actually do things! I won't bother you with the details now, since you have a lot on your plate (shoot me an email if you have free time), but I realize even more than ever, that an ill-considered word or phrase can be a very very very bad thing. If I end up being half as good as you with this kind of thing, I think I'll be a credit to Misplaced Pages. SirFozzie 18:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations! I think you'll do fine. Best regards, Durova 16:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Replacement Jane Austen Article

I am researching and writing a replacement for the main article on Jane Austen. I've substantially finished the "Life/Works/Criticism" sections (you can see from the outline where I plan to go from here). I believe that it is both customary and good manners to invite comments and constructive criticism before I make a wholesale substitution. You've been at least somewhat active in commenting on the existing article.

The replacement article may be found here: Replacement Jane Austen Article

Please review it and leave comments on the talk page of the original Jane Austen article or on the talk page of the replacement article. I plan to travel for the next week or so but will collect comments and respond when I return. Simmaren 21:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm so glad to see this article getting the serious attention it deserves. I'm not any expert on Austen biography or criticism so I'll defer to other editors on the specifics. My first impression is that you're doing fine work and I'd love to see it uploaded. Durova 17:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Message recieved with Durova's signature, but posted by another user

I received a message on my user page (not my talk page) today from the user Person24, however the message had your signature at the end. The message itself was also very odd, stating that "this" IP address has been blocked for violations of WP:POINT. I removed the message (mainly because it was posted in the wrong place), but an archive can be viewed here: . Note that the "J" in "June" is lowercase, meaning the signature may have been manually created by Person24. I left a message on Person24's talk page about the post and am currently waiting for a response. I believe the message may have been a personal attack in response to a message that I left on the user's talk page about image uploads. –Dream out loud (talk) 21:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually that was cut and pasted from an IP address block I imposed on 6 April. That IP hasn't edited since then so I didn't reimpose a block there, but it's a safe bet they're the same person. In all likelihood he or she has used other sockpuppets. Since Person24 is now blocked indefinitely for impersonating me, you're welcome to request a checkuser if you think the person has come back on another account. Thanks for the heads up and best wishes. Durova 16:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

NPA/"Attack Sites"

A while ago I proposed mediation for conflicts on the (currently protected) NPA policy page having to do with the inclusion of "attack sites" proscriptions: Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks#Mediation_request_proposal. While most of those on the "individual judgment/context-sensitive issue" side of the debate have indicated interest in doing this, most of those on the absolutist side (with the exceptions of ElinorD and SOPHIA) have not. I proposed this before I had never heard of "community enforceable mediation," which, if it is implementable, seems like the kind of approach this conflict needs... if "the community" can get those involved in the debate to come to a sticking agreement of some sort, rather than continue edit warring the issue(s) to death.

Before I read about this, I was thinking of starting a formal mediation request once NPA became unprotected and then compelling the revert warriors to undergo it, but i don't know if this would be feasible either. Either way, anything is worth a shot, as the reams of discussion so far only seems to have left people more entrenched, and a refereed debate may at least keep the NPA violations down on the NPA page. Is CEM the right approach? Please advise. Thanks, —AL 05:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Be aware that CEM is an experimental process. Go ahead if you'd like to try it. It's designed to be a low key alternative to arbitration. Durova 16:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

BLP

Thank you for your comment. I guess I consider the current deletion process an inappropriate venue for discussing issues like this. To me, the question of whether an individual merits an encyclopedia article is completely separate from the question of whether he or she wishes the article to exist. If an AfD discussion ends roughly split about whether or not the individual merits an article, then perhaps it is best to consider the individual's wishes. But if half of the people commenting believe that the individual merits an article, but the other half believe the article should be deleted because of the subject's wishes, then there really isn't a disagreement about whether or not the subject merits an article, and taking the subject's wishes into consideration isn't as appropriate because there is strong consensus about whether the individual merits an article.

If, for example, an AfD ended with, say, 50% of people voting "keep", 25% voting "delete" because they don't think the individual merits an article, and 25% voting "delete" because of the subject's wishes, then what we have is 75% of the people believing that the individual merits an article, 25% believing that the individual does not, and 25% believing that the individual's wishes are most important. Even though 75% believe that the individual merits an article, the "keep"/"delete" ratio is 50-50, and the closing admin, under BLP, should consider the individual's wishes, which only 25% of those voting felt were relevant.

If we want the individual's wishes to be a reason for deletion in and of itself, we should say so. And if that were the case, then I think the closing admin shouldn't be able to take the individual's wishes into consideration, because the people voting already would have. That is, I think there's a difference between a "keep"/"delete" split and a "keep"/"delete per the subject's wishes" split. The former represents a lack of consensus about whether the individual merits an article, at which point maybe the subject's wishes should be considered, but the latter represents a lack of consensus about whether the individual's wishes should be considered in the first place. I'm not really addressing the more morality-oriented points you made at my talk page because I think that's an entirely different discussion from anything that should be relevant to AfD or DRV. If we are to consider those issues, I think we should be doing so at a different forum, perhaps something like WP:OPTOUT. Right now I don't think our policies on this whole issue are as thought out as they need to be, especially with the volume at which the questions have started to be raised. --Maxamegalon2000 22:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Hard to find one you don't have already

Thank you very much! Durova 14:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Great comment

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the whole Brandt saga, but I would like to applaud you for one of the sanest and most thought provoking comments I've read it a while.--Kubigula (talk) 06:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I wonder sometimes how much people read these things. It's good to know they aren't missed. Durova 15:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

HTML Refresh Language

hi durova,

re your posting to delete the html refresh language entry i posted yesterday, i have posted the following in the deletions discussion but not sure if i posted it in the correct space. I am thus sending this direct to you as well.

Please follow the reference to the IETF archive for the draft that is in the article. This is the IETF's own storage of drafts so addresses the issues of WP:V and WP:RS. This article was added as an adjunct to the history section of the Ajax (programming) article to provide a complete picture of alternatives that exist to that strategy. As for "blatant WP:COI" I again point to the reference to the officially saved IETF draft which means the the only source for this article about a computer language is on an internationally recognised organisations web site and not on Rosswnelson's web site as was stated above. I have also attempted to keep the article strictly neutral and would be happy to accept any suggestions on how to improve this in the content.

regards

ross nelson

LionheartX

A user named LionheartX making a lot of POV changes (generally pro-Chinese). I see that you blocked him in the past (although, this took some looking because he constantly blanks his talk page). I would appreciate your help in keeping an eye on this guy. Thanks. Alexwoods 21:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I've sworn off that problem. Durova 00:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Blocking policy

Please check this diff. I think it clarifies and also accomplishes the change we were seeking. The key point is to distinguish between disruptive incidents by otherwise valued members of the community, and disruptive accounts that serve no purpose except to make trouble. Jehochman 17:24, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks adequate for Wikisleuthing of complex vandalism. Let's see whether anyone objects strongly enough to revert it. The most reasonable part of the criticism we've seen is that bad faith editors could try to misuse a change to railroad productive contributors in content dispute. If you make any further amendment, try your best to insulate against that. Durova 17:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:COIN

Hi Durova, I'm trying to honor your request to take on some of the work at COIN. I'm kind of unfamiliar with the territory, so any feedback or words of guidance are welcome. There be lions in that room! -Pete 20:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much for chipping in. Most of the notices at that board fit into three basic categories. Sometimes people make WP:COI mistakes in good faith when they're new to the site - we try to steer them in the right direction with polite user talk page posts. Another group of posts doesn't need much action because the edit history is old or there doesn't turn out to be an actual COI problem. The thing to really watch for is ideologically driven or profit motive abuse.

If you think you see the latter situation, assume good faith if possible and leave a polite warning. Update the noticeboard thread with specifics if you think administrative intervention is necessary. Article semi-protection is a simple solution to many COI problems. I'll also do full protections, user blocks, and (in extreme cases) user bans.

This area can be an interesting hobby if you like solving detective mysteries. There's no telling where a particular request may lead. Durova 20:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. That sounds about like what I see, but your breakdown is useful. I've already commented on two cases, and on the "talk" pages of several articles listed by the bot. Seems fine so far, maybe I'll report back after some some more work. -Pete 20:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me know if anything strange pops up. I'll be glad to give pointers as needed. Most of it is intuitive and common sense. Every once in a while you'll find a real sneaky vandal. It can be quite satisfying to uncover that type of abuse and put an end to it. Durova 21:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Invisible Water Soluble Safe Non-Toxic Barnstar

I hereby award you this Invisible Water Soluble Safe Non-Toxic Barnstar in recognition of the fact that, while for me to give you a visible barnstar might be construed as inappropriate given your position , your contributions to wikipedia patently merit recognition. Since the more I see the more I am impressed, you are, from this point until your next bath, shower, walk in the rain, or next Thursday at the latest, my hero. SheffieldSteel 22:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Golly, thanks. I've just fixed up some homemade herbal glycerin soap and I'll be sure to enjoy the barnstar with it. Cheers, Durova 05:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Herman Edwards

Is this what you meant to do? JoshuaZ 00:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Oops, thanks for the catch. I've fixed that better now. Cheers, Durova 05:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Help with Positive Coaching Alliance?

Durova, you seem to have chimed in on my poor first foray on wikipedia on the Positive Coaching Alliance page. Is there a way to simply remove the page until I better understand wikiquette? Thanks for any help or guidance you may provide.--PositiveCoach 02:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC) PositiveCoach

If the assertions at that article are true then it's certainly notable enough for Misplaced Pages. As volunteer editors we need to see some independent verification such as citations of news reports about your organization. It can also be problematic for a representative of any organization to attempt to write the Misplaced Pages article about it. The usual prose style of professional marketing/public relations writing doesn't fit well with this project. So you have several options here. I'll outline them and you can choose or ask me to elaborate if you need clarification.

• Join Misplaced Pages's WP:ADOPT mentorship program. That will put you in touch with an experienced editor who'll help you learn the ropes around here.
• Post suggested changes to the article's talk page. Misplaced Pages editors particularly like to see line citations to reliable sources. Then ask relevant WikiProjects to evaluate and adapt your suggested changes.
• If you're concerned that a high Google return for the current version of this article would embarrass the firm, you could try nominating it for deletion. Note your reasons in the deletion request. I'm not certain the nomination would carry because the organization does appear to be notable, but if that doesn't result in a deletion there's also a fair chance some uninvolved editors would improve it while it's under consideration.

Thanks for the polite reply and best wishes. Years ago I used to moonlight as an athletic instructor and positive reinforcement always seemed to work best. Durova 05:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

COFS

From the standpoint of fairness, I'd like to express that I think COFS is not getting a fair shake here.

1. There is/was a question about sock puppets, due to the IP address. This seems to have been resolved by establishing that the COS in LA has a proxy. As I can't see IPs, I am not in a position to know if Misou and/or COFS edits from multiple (different) respective IPs or not. However, observing their edit styles, it seems to me that they are different people.
2. Then there was the issue about WP:COI. Different people seem to have a different definition of what COI truly involves and to what degree sanctions should be placed on an editor with any degree of COI. In this case COFS has clearly indicated that there is not an 'employment' relationship. While it does not completely address the relationship, it does remove payment from the picture. That leaves 'volunteer' of some sort, and a volunteer is simply that, a volunteer. People volunteer for things for a variety of reasons, and it usually indicates some level of interest or dedication to what they are volunteering for. This could indicate some level of COI, but I think that is stretching things pretty thin and thats where we would have to start banning multiple users in multiple articles. Personally, I have no interest in biting into that apple. It's a dangerous road to start down.
3. Then there is the issue of COFS being and unmanageable edit warrior. A careful look at COF block log indicates only two blocks for 3RR edit warring (the rest of the blocks were unblocked). I can point you to several editors who edit from an anti-cult perspective with more blocks than that. One editor in particular has 4 blocks under an old name and 3 recent blocks under a new name and has been 'forgiven' for as many as 7RR without being blocked. This isn't 'about' that editor so it is not relevant who it is. The point is, COFS only has 2 blocks for 3RR, which hardly defines an edit warrior when compared to the other editor's 7 blocks and at least 12 lucky breaks (that I counted)
4. Then there is the issue of meatpuppets. This is a weak argument, since all pro-Scientologists and anti-Scientologists could easily be considered meatpuppets, given the strongly polarized views on the subject.

In my opinion, people are adding all this smoke together, without truly looking at the details of the facts, and they are forming an opinon based on a feeling, rather than the facts in front of them. The block history establishes that COFS is not an edit warrior. There has been no RfC on COFS, which suggests that nobody has engaged COFS in any unresolved disputes.

To me, this is a matter of "lets accuse COFS enough times of enough things so that people start associating 'COFS' with 'problems'.

It's one thing to say that COFS won't cooperate, but the facts are, neither side is willing to compromise any more or less than the other.

Something needs to be done, certainly. But, sacrificing COFS in the name of NPOV is not the solution.

Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts, such as they are.

Peace in God. Lsi john 19:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

My reply is at WP:CN. Durova 21:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Gray

I understand you don't do investigations anymore, by request anyway, but your comments on WP:CN were most gratifying since I'm pretty sure something involving gray ethics is going on among some supporters as well. Thanks for your open-minded, yet astute approach in mediating the issue. Anynobody 10:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• Gray ethics? You opened the AN/I to find out if your 3-month long list of offenses against Justanother violated any specific rules, and you wanted to know the exact location of those rules here. Then when your motives were questioned and you are told it is unacceptable, rather than stick to your original stated goal of 'finding out if it was acceptable' it looks like you posted a bunch of links intended to justify your behavior here.

Then after an admin had enough of the nonesense and closed the closed the discussion, you reopened it and tried to add this?

Now you suggest that going after COFS for gray ethics is acceptable? Sir your anti-Scientology campaign has been well documented. You began this charge against COFS, and now when you have nothing black and white, you shift over to gray and suggest that is acceptable? Be very careful that someone does not look at your conduct for gray. Lsi john 12:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll open this offer to all concerned in the dispute: if you believe some other editor has violated enough policies to merit community sanctions, draw up a report with evidence in your own user space. An example of an early report I did is User:Durova/Complex vandalism at Joan of Arc. Be mindful to avoid crossing the line into Misplaced Pages:Attack page. In the meantime, please refrain from trading accusations with each other. I strongly recommend mediation. Durova 14:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, but I respectfully decline. I have no desire to get anyone kicked off of wikipedia nor banned. I'd have thought that would have been obvious by now. I'm not here to 'compile' paranoid lists, thanks. The only reason I respond the way I do, is to help identify WP:KETTLE situations, when abusers attempt to draw unsuspecting good-faith editors and admins into their campaign to get someone booted. Lsi john 21:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually if there is a legitimate problem that needs to be addressed it's much better to put together a well referenced and well reasoned report. When I was a new administrator I would have referred your request to the request for investigations noticeboard and I'd like to get that noticeboard reactivated. In the meantime I've been training a talented core of up-and-coming wikisleuths, some of whom are now administrators, and you have my assurance they'll look into requests with impartiality. Set forth evidence with plenty of page diffs that connect all the dots, don't try to stretch the facts, and be the first to step forward with appropriate mea culpae regarding any mistakes you may have made. We just want to keep this site fair and honest. Durova 21:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Again I decline. I would much prefer to participate in editing articles than shooting ducks in a barrel. If you're truly interested in impartial investigation, several suggestions have been made on the sanctions noticeboard. Peace in God. Lsi john 00:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Lsi john, I didn't intend to start a fight on Durova's talk page. I simply agreed with the idea that those defending COFS might be collaborating offline. You've created another example of what I was talking about here. You seem to have taken the question I asked on WP:ANI pretty personally considering your lack of involvement; Justanother's ultimatum to Orsini. You're mentioning of the situation here, and on the WP:CN reminds me of how Justanother has reacted in similar situations. If you want to continue this "discussion" consider posting it on my talk page, but please don't use my posting here to agree with another editor as an excuse to whatever it is you are doing on another person's talk page.

Durova, do you have more cases like the rogue editor described in your report? (It's both interesting and educational.) I'll see what I can put together on this situation. If it looks as convincing as the case you cited, I'll proceed with some kind of action but I have a question. Assuming I have enough evidence, is it worth the time and effort? (in your opinion). Anynobody 03:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Anynobody, why are you bringing me into this conversation? Especially if you "didn't intend to start a fight" here. That is weird. --Justanother 05:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Anynobody (and Justanother also), If you're interested in putting together this type of report then be prepared to have your own actions scrutinized. Here's another example by one of my admin coaching students: User:Cailil/Complex vandalism on feminism and gender studies related articles. That one ended in a siteban and here's an ongoing case I've been reviewing: User:LUCPOL/Vandal:R9tgokunks. I cowrote the Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing guideline in order to make it easier to address this type of problem. When a report checks out then, depending on the situation, I take action or bring it to community discussion with my endorsement. Sometimes things go through arbitration. Several of the wikisleuths I've trained helped uncover a long term vandal when they were newish editors. It requires a thick skin and some patience, but it's a fascinating hobby. Durova 05:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I heartily agree with your statement that wikisleuthing is fascinating, for several reasons beyond whatever the point of the sleuthing is. By that I mean exposing a sock or meat puppet is interesting, but reading about what made them do it is the really fascinating part; Evading a ban, performing PR for their groups/ideas, personality issues, the list goes on and on. I'm starting to think that no matter how much a person tries to vary their persona in order to operate puppets, something always gives them away if one knows what to look for and has enough patience to let the puppeteer(s) expose themselves. I also have a thick skin, so I'll see what I can put together. Thanks for the information, Durova I really appreciate it.

Justanother I didn't "bring" you into anything, unless using your name counts. Lsi john's posts remind me of your behavior, which further reminds me of one last thing I wanted to ask Durova.

Some pages I can't see, deleted pages or admin only archives, as you're no doubt aware. If I run into a situation where research I need is on one of those types of pages would it be ok to ask your assistance? (I of course understand any help would be at your convenience, you have a lot more going on than any of my research requests I'm assuming.) Anynobody 08:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

violation of "do no harm"?

I am having an edit war over a poorly sourced "list of known Toupee wearers" that I feel clearly violates both BLP and WP:NOT as a list of useless and potentially harmful trivia. A new user and an anon keep ignoring my reversions and warnings. I bring this to you bc "do no harm" seems to be dear to your heart, and being accused of wearing a hairpeice could not only hurt someone deeply, but bring litigation.VanTucky 22:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Now they have removed all the living people, so it's just a bad trivia section now. VanTucky 22:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually that view has been attributed to me rather than something I've expressed. My actual view is that ethical decisions where good people disagree should be placed in the hands of the individuals who live with the consequences. So I've no particular opposition to living persons being included at a list of toupee wearers, so long as those entries are reliably sourced and the individuals themselves don't protest. Then again, in the interests of fair disclosure I happen to be a woman who has too much hair on my head - so maybe I'm not the best person to evaluate the potential for harm from such inclusions. Durova 23:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice disclosure of your hair "POV" there. Oh you gals and your emotional considerations! Why can't you just ignore people's legitimate feelings? VanTucky 05:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

for you

Thank you very much! Durova 03:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that it's a brilliant idea too, in the spirit of your concept I created Category:Eguor editors. Anynobody 00:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Your post

I am offended by your suggestion that I am involved in undefined and unspecificed offline complicity. And I take exception to your implication that I have somehow contradicted myself.

I feel you owe me an apology for attacking my character.

Peace in God. Lsi john 23:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I've already invited the editors at that thread to take the matter to arbitration if any of them take strong exception. You are welcome to raise conduct issues there if you believe there is any case to be made. If you'd like to handle things in a less formal manner I suggest you demonstrate goodwill by apologizing to Jehochman for this incivility. It hasn't been my intention to offend your feelings or anyone else's although I do stand by my actions. Durova 03:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

So you justify making uncivilized bad-faith and unfounded character assassinations against other editors, as long as you can point to something someone else did, that you consider wrong?!!! Durova, collusion and complicity, are very serious charges to make against someone. You carelessly made them with no evidence of any wrong doing. It's called defamation of character or character assassination without merit. In mainspace it would be a violation of WP:BLP. It's improper and you were way out of line to do it, regardless of anything that anyone else did.

Furthermore, there is absolutely no comparison between this response, where I identified a specific problem in a specific post, where Jehochman had misrepresented 25-hour old edit history as: fresh COI edits here, and your conduct, where you made spurious and unfounded accusations/allegations of offline complicity and implied wrong doing, and then mis-represented my posts as contradictory/conflicting and left an edit summary "evidence of collusion". a) Declaring them to be fresh, when they were 15 & 25 hours old, was improper. b) Declaring them to be COI edits, was yet another unfounded claim. There is no indication that COFS has a conflict of interest in editing those articles. There has been no determination by WP:COIN that restricts COFS from making Scientology edits. Therefore, Jehochman's post was improper, and I said so and I said why. I backed up my 'shame on you' to Jehochman with specific information. He claimed they indicated evidence of current edit warring, yet no block was issued and no report was even filed and the posts were 25 and 15 hours old respectively.

As for what I owe Jehochman, quite frankly, that is none of your business. Besides which, I am involved (in what you would call off-line complicity) with him regarding the issue and we have addressed the situation already by email. Though I prefer to use the term 'communication'.

You, on the other hand, did not questioned my judgment with a polite rebuke. You attacked my character, my integrity and my honest, without any supporting evidence.

The fact that you would somehow justify uncivilized and rude conduct on your part by pointing to a comment made by someone else as 'also bad' says a lot about your character.

The fact that you would tie an apology for your conduct to some action on my part says a lot about your character.

You are clearly unwilling to look at your own conduct and acknowledge your mistakes and appologize for them. I'm sorry to see that your arrogance runs so deep. It appears we have nothing further to say to each other on this issue.

Best regards. Good luck on your journey. Lsi john 13:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

As one of "COFS's defenders" I guess I should also be somewhat offended at this post on the part of Durova, whom I was under the impression was a fair and and respected admin. But it was not specifically directed at me and I am way too experienced an editor a human being to be put-off by that sort of vague accusation of impropriety so I kinda skipped right over it. It was, however, very specifically addressed to Lsi john and he is within his rights to request an apology. But my real concern is whether there was an intended chilling effect; i.e. an effort on the part of Durova to scare off any editor that might dare oppose her will. That would be pretty arrogant. --Justanother 14:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Lsi john, I see you've posted to Jimbo's talk page. Part of my reply is there. To both of you, I have no axe to grind here. I'll look into any well-substantiated report of serious policy violations by any editor. You are welcome to come to me with whatever reports you choose to research, and please do so in a calm and reasoned manner. Be aware that this aggressive conduct attracts scrutiny. For instance, the preliminary research I did that located the contradictory posts about COFS also revealed this odd interpretation of policy. Actually featured content standards favor large numbers of sources and line citations, and those expectations have risen steadily over time. I've contributed three featured pages so I speak from experience. Although I haven't looked into this situation in great detail as of yet, so far it has all the earmarks of something that turns out this way (rule 131). My actions have withstood scrutiny many times and I welcome more scrutiny. If that initial impression is mistaken then of course you have no reason to fear scrutiny either. Durova 19:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Durova, perhaps in my effort to remain civil, I was not as clear as I could have been. I believe that your post here is a personal attack. And now your post here, where you imply I am a vandal, is also a personal attack. And, describing my posts as contradictory is also a personal attack. I respectfully request that you stop making such public statements.

Regarding your opinion on excessive quotes, if you believe that {{quotefarm}} is an unnecessary and improper template, then you should seek to have it removed from wikipedia. Classifying my statement, that we are not supposed to have quotefarms, as odd, is certainly your choice, but doing so in an accusatory manner is also a personal attack. Implying that you will 'look into this situation', shows incredibly bad faith on your part, and indicates that you do, in fact, have an axe to grind. My edit history is public record, and you are more than welcome to scrutinize it. However, I request that you not make public 'observations' about my edits that could be construed as a personal attack.

If you believe you have a case that can be prosecuted through wikipedia's AN, AN/I, Medcab, Arbcom or whatever other forum, then please do so. Until such time, please refrain from public speculation about my edits, intentions or activities where such speculation could be construed as a personal attack. Lsi john 00:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I am requesting that you acknowledge that you will stop attacking me. Thank you. Lsi john 02:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Durova: As a courtesy to you, so you understand why I have such strong feelings about this: I was wrongfully and falsely accused of something years ago, and it took thousands of dollars and several years to disprove the lies and clear my name. Perhaps this also will explain why I speak so strongly in cases like the one where COFS is being railroaded without any formal Arbcom proceedings. I have severe negative reactions to witch hunting.

You said previously that this (investigating and banning) is a 'hobby' for you. What you need to understand and take into considerstaion, is that your 'hobby' is affecting people's lives. Lsi john 02:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Durova and I are not the only editors to have/had suspicions about your behavior Lsi john. I've actually seen a couple of other editors at various times express concern, one example of which I happened find while looking for something else:

Similar conversation with another editor. Anynobody 04:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

John, I too was falsely accused (in a commercial dispute) and paid a very significant amount of money to clear my name. I empathize with your situation, but you have to understand that Durova is like a Jedi, trying to defend Misplaced Pages from the dark side: commercial and ideological manipulation. If she's confused and said something wrong about you, please be calm and just present the facts. She's extremely reasonable and readily apologizes if she makes a mistake. Your reaction makes you look guilty. Please, employ all your strength to be civil even if you want to throw your shoe at somebody. Jehochman 04:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A favour regarding SEO etc

Hi, Durova: given your experience with SEO and notability etc, may I ask a favour (and the favour is extended to Jehochman if he's reading): I have a friend who is considering offering WP articles to her clients along with her other services. She knows nothing about WP, never edits here, never reads the site, and I've been trying to explain to her why that's a bad idea. The problem is that - despite my extensive experience with WP - her inexperience makes it difficult for her to understand the risk involved, as well as the consequences. I know there are important pages, WP:N, WP:COI, WP:SPAM, etc, but I feel that, with her inexperience with WP, those pages would be too complex for her to understand. Is there an essay, or a more brief, general article, that outlines WP's culture v/v this issue, as well as the consequences of being red-flagged as a COI or SPA editor? Thanks in advance, you can reply here. Anchoress 20:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed there is! See Misplaced Pages:Search engine optimization. Jehochman 21:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

An awesome essay, Jehochman, I've read it before. However, it's a bit too complex for her, I think, and the emphasis on linkspam will probably turn her brain off because she won't see how it relates to her ambition to write articles for clients. Thanks for reminding me of that essay, however, I like it very much. Anchoress 21:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

There's a simple shock treatment. You can point her to User:MyWikiBiz and say that this is what happens to users who "sell" Misplaced Pages articles. I also recommend User:Durova/The dark side. I've added an "Edit for hire" section to the SEO essay, so maybe that will be helpful to her. Thank you for the feedback. Jehochman 21:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for asking me, Anchoress. Actually I've written directly to the Foundation when I came across a firm that advertised Misplaced Pages article writing services. That could have resulted in an indef block from the Office if that company's Misplaced Pages account hadn't been dormant for several months (they didn't seem to actually get much business for it). I strongly advise your friend to tread cautiously. There's a huge and underappreciated potential downside to reckless WP:COI editing at this site: when the press latches onto a case that has the appearance of impropriety it becomes international news and that can have career ending consequences. If your friend is serious there are ways to edit ethically with a COI, but most of the relevant business press articles are written by people who know little about this site and whose recommendations point their readers in several dangerous directions. Durova 04:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Omaha Steaks

Sorry if you might be a vegetarian... This is the reason I came here in the first place. We have a passel of mischievous socks trying to whitewash and promote Omaha Steaks. Could you semi-protect this for a couple weeks so we have a chance to educate the company representatives. Jehochman 21:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'm no vegetarian, and sure thing. Durova 04:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Do no harm

I can't follow your objection to the proposed principle "Do no harm" in the Badlydrawnjeff arbitration .

Firstly you say:

The logical consequence of a do no harm precept is to demand evidence of harm, which a BLP subject may prefer not to provide since the evidence and any onsite analysis of it could defeat the purpose of courtesy deletion (such disclosures and related analysis would be indexed on Google with a prominent page ranking).

Fine. But then you say:

It's safe to conclude that silence from a BLP subject implies no objection; those who do object deserve to be treated with dignity.

Firstly, how do I know that the subject of the article has even heard of Misplaced Pages?

Secondly, your reasoning assumes that the precept is about how to treat objections. That principle isn't addressed in this arbitration (no objections having been received in any instances submitted in evidence). Rather, this is a general expression of the equivalent phrase in the BLP, and applies to our ethical duties at all times.

Thirdly, your two statements appear to be incompatible. In your first statement you give an excellent reason why the subject of an article might want to avoid openly objecting ("the evidence and any onsite analysis of it could defeat the purpose of courtesy deletion ("such disclosures and related analysis would be indexed on Google with a prominent page ranking)") but then you decide that "It's safe to conclude that silence from a BLP subject implies no objection." This doesn't make sense.

Yours. --Tony Sidaway 07:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

During the recent discussions about Angela Beesley, Seth Finkelstein, and Daniel Brandt I saw some editors try to estimate whether harm was done. It's rather hard to rebut a no harm was done here argument without supplying information about actual harm - and there's the catch-22. All we really need to know is that the BLP subject doesn't want an article about himself or herself on this site. It's possible to know that much and verify its authenticity through the Foundation without going into the reasons behind that desire (which is pretty rare anyway).

Basically I consider it a much sounder principle than do no harm to give weight to a subject's expressed wishes. If that still appears to be contradictory then I'll do my best to clarify further. Durova 15:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's easy enough to rebut "no harm was done here": set the onus in the opposite direction: those who think an article should exist, must demonstrate that it does not do any harm. This is how the arbitration committee puts it:

Any administrator, acting on their own judgment, may delete an article that is substantially a biography of a living person if they believe that it (and every previous version of it) significantly violates any aspect of the relevant policy. This deletion may be contested via the usual means; however, the article must not be restored, whether through undeletion or otherwise, without an actual consensus to do so. The burden of proof is on those who wish to retain the article to demonstrate that it is compliant with every aspect of the policy.

The proposal (here) is currently running 9-1-0 on the proposed decision. --Tony Sidaway 16:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback and I appreciate your perspective here. I hope I'm mistaken about the potential for a chilling effect. That's my candid opinion, though, and I'll stand by it. Durova 19:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Blocking of Bus stop

Hi--I'm just wondering if the indefinite block of Bus stop is a bit excessive. Although I'm sympathetic to his situation (and in a large part in agreement with his central concern), I'm not a supporter of his actions. Having said that, he's been an excellent editor in other articles, in particular visual art. Is it possible to block him for a longer "cooling-off" period that would expire, such as a month? If he were to continue to be disruptive after that, than, yes, an indefinite block may be necessary. I guess I'm just concerned that there appeared to be an active campaign to egg him on, and although he was his own worst enemy at times, there seemed to be others involved that were not merely victims. Thanks for listening. Freshacconci 14:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The problems I saw were quite serious. That said, I'm willing to be reasonable. How does this sound? If he pledges to enter mentorship and pledges to avoid the article for three months. Durova 15:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I passed along the offer to Bus stop. It's up to him now. Freshacconci 16:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If I might add a perhaps additional qualifier that, should he feel the urge to engage in any other such repetitive edits, he seek some sort of mediation (rather than oppose it). I note that this is apparently the second time he has engaged in behavior such as this, the first being in regards to Michael Richards, and that this repetition of potentially problematic behavior is my reason for trying to dissuade him from similar activity again in the future. Otherwise, as the person who first proposed action against him, I only sought his being kept from editing the articles related to the content in question, not from wikipedia as a whole, and think that he probably has made enough positive contributions elsewhere to be given the chance to continue to work on and develop that content. John Carter 16:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

From his insistence he has done no "disruption" and the continuous allegations of anti-semitism and a Catholic agenda (I'm atheist by the way), I find the notion of letting him continuing editing alarming. What assurance do we have he'll accept responsibility for his actions, and start taking WP:NOR and WP:RS to heart (besides e.g. cutting and pasting passages from policy pages and twisting them into a segue to preach "Bob Dylan is a Jew. This is a list of Christians. We do not contrive parameters to put a Jew on a list of Christians" ad nauseum as he has done for ~4 months?) He still has made no apologies for his conduct, nor shown any willingness whatsoever to WP:AGF and consider maybe other people's edits are well-intentioned and have merit...can a mentor change one's personality? Not everyone has had to witness and often be on the receiving end of that disruption since last November, I have and I believe 8 months is enough to consider someone irredeemable if they have never taken responsibility, never admitted any wrongdoing every time they've been blocked, and persist in the same rhetoric and behavior. If mentorship is the option, I hope I'm wrong and a mentor can help make one more introspective and be receptive to WP rules. Tendancer 17:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that, should he be found to engage in similar behavior in the future to any extent (I think four problematic edits would probably be enough to qualify here), the extant record of his previous behavior would probably be enough for someone to perhaps request and get at least a short term block on him. Should that behavior continue despite a block or similar censure again, I don't imagine that there would be any objection from anyone for another, probably more permanent, block. John Carter 17:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I have found Bus Stop to be a cogent, intelligent and useful editor on art-related articles, and I'd like to see him be reinstated, perhaps keeping his distance at this point from the Christianity convert article, its talk page and Bob Dylan as well. It would help if John Carter would ease up on him a little also. Modernist 17:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think John's been reasonable. I too, am troubled to see him blocked entirely, as he seems to be a good contributor beyond the subject matter in question. However, if this really is an obsession to him, it may reach a point where he attempts an indirect course of editing by convincing others of his faulty position without consideration of the responses of the other editors involved (as he has previously 'advertised' his argument on talk pages, specifically in response to me, but without my original response for reference or with my own response to his comment... apparently, he finds context an unnecessary nuisance). If he behaves (and he did get pretty bad recently), then there is really no reason why he should be banned entirely. He seems to be knowledgeable and useful in other subjects- just not this one.--C.Logan 18:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Consider me a hard-liner. I would like to see him make an apology or any kind of acknowledgement, and admit he has broken rules, and has been disruptive, and show some understanding what the rules stand for and why they are important for wiki. The "as long as he edits other articles" is more of a "as long as it's not my backyard" approach, all that will accomplish is we'll end up with an editor who disrupts wikipedia elsewhere. Just reading his talk page history, there had been plenty of other editors who found his conduct questionable even on the editing of art-related articles. Yes indefinite seems a harsh punishment, but the goal here is not punitive but preventive. What reason is there for anyone to think he'll not continue editing in his pattern? Even now, he's still refusing to admit he did anything wrong and accuse others of a conspiracy. Tendancer 18:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I can understand the above opinion, particularly regarding Bus stop's continuing denial of any wrongdoing and ongoing accusations. Maybe, if Durova would find this acceptable (and my apologies for all of us misusing your talk page like this, by the way) we could ensure that Bus stop receive a more active form of adopt-a-user than is usually the case. Have their ever been cases where the adopter also functions, to a degree, like a Probation officer, as in being someone that other users can contact should they see the subject engage in problematic behavior, and who has some degree of influence over the subject him/herself, possibly including blocking? If there have been, or if rules for doing so could be established, that might come close to being acceptable to the majority of the parties involved. And establishing such a system if it hasn't already existed might be useful in the future for similar cases as well. Again, sorry for all these off-topic posts on your page here, Durova. John Carter 18:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Tendancer, it's unlikely you'll get any sincere apology from someone who appears to have a sincere belief that his or her actions are justified. All I ask is that this person pledge to enter mentorship and avoid a particular article for three months. If Bus stop does that and further problems arise then you can report them to WP:AN along with this history and any administrator can take appropriate action. Sometimes editors can become productive if they just stay away from a hot button area - as I describe at User:Durova/Recusal I could have gone down the wrong road myself. And to John Carter, I proposed WP:CSN and started WP:CEM along similar lines to your thinking. If you've got useful and workable ideas in this area I'm all ears. Durova 19:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I realize that I'm in way over my head here, given my lack of familiarity with a lot of things, and that you've probably thought of most of this before. But maybe if the {{adoptee}} could be adjusted a little to include a statement to the effect of "If you have any concerns regarding the conduct of this user please contact the adopter" or creation of a new template like "How's my editing? Please leave a note ", or "This user has a short fuse on the subject of . Please forgive him if he's been out of line, or contact ". With any luck, the adopter or supervisor would be an admin or someone with a good deal of knowledge of the policies involved, and someone who has demonstrated some ability in working with individuals with the interests of the adoptee, like most of the adopt-a-users. I might think one of the later two might be preferable for someone who's been around for quite a while and might seem a bit too experienced to have been "adopted". I suppose that the "adoptee", in this case Bus stop, would have to agree to it as well, but under the circumstances I don't think that that's likely going to be a problem. I know I've also seen several pages where editors have {{User ADHD}}, {{User ADD}}, {{User Aspie}}, and so on, and maybe, depending on how many users have such things, and/or have occasionally problematic conduct as a result, link to the page of some admin or group who has some experience of them personally or have volunteered to work with editors with such conditions in general. I don't know if any of that would be "workable", but it's the best I can think of. John Carter 19:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a decent idea to present to the folks who run WP:ADOPT. I've never been a formal part of that program - I just have a high opinion of it. Go see what they think. Best regards, Durova 01:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Please restore or explain

Durova,

I am puzzled by your deletion of my post to WP:CSN here. It is in keeping with the two prior posts, one of which resulted in a block by you for Bus stop and the other resulted in a recommendation by you for a ban on COFS.

On your talkpage, above, you specifically asked for detailed information about anyone who should be banned. I went to quite some effort to compile that information for you. Now it appears that, contradicting your offer (above) to help, you simply delete the thread.

To my knowledge, neither of the two editors, who were reported in the prior posts, have an RfC against them, yet, in your edit summary, you suggested that I open an RfC. And, my post followed the example of both of those previous instances (and included everything you asked me for), and yet you deleted it.

It seems now that you are agreeing with Justanother on the usage of the CSN board, which is inconsistent with your previous ruling and recommendation.

I request that you restore my post there, or explain the difference between my post and the two that you have both left there and ruled on. At the very least, the post should be restored and marked 'archive' for documentation purposes (as I have seen done on AN and AN/I).

I really am trying to stay on wiki-break, specifically due to this entire situation. But I find it rather frustrating and contradictory, and a bit confusing.

Best Regards, Peace in God. Lsi john 19:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The explanation is in my edit note. That board is for specific community sanctions proposals. If you'd like to write up a report about inappropriate conduct, the place for that is your own user namespace (taking care not to cross the line into an attack page). The way you presented things looks very much like a request for comment and the editors at WP:CSN routinely close that type of post and refer the matter to the other venue.

It might shed light on my perspective to read my essay User:Durova/Recusal. When I was a new editor, fresh out of the military, I was rather shocked by what I saw on the talk pages of the World Trade Center article. My uncle had been one of the last people to escape from that disaster and I swore in and went to war because of it. I soon realized that I couldn't collaborate on that topic and stayed away after a couple of talk page posts. Whenever I encounter editors who've run into policy trouble I bear in mind how easily I could have gone down the same path myself. It may not seem this way to you, but I've been handling the Scientology matter with kid gloves: if I were on some sort of mission against COFS I could have blocked him myself - and bear in mind that my offer to review investigative reports applies equally to both sides of this issue. This site does have certain standard ways of doing things and you appear to be unfamiliar with them. That's one reason mentorship could be very useful to you. Another reason is that you'd get advice from someone totally uninvolved and objective. I understand Scientology is a polarizing subject for some people and if you've been burned by someone else it may be difficult to trust my assurances. Durova 19:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm more confused now. Sorry. I thought my proposal was for community sanctions against Smee. I simply gave more documentation than the prior two proposals, in order to avoid being accused of attacking him or of making unfounded accusations against him. Why do you suggest my complaint go to RfC but the two previous complaints were within the policy of that notice board?

As for Scientology being polarizing, I'm not a Scientologist and I've rarely made any edits to any Scientology articles.

As for being burned, well, I've been burned a couple of times by taking 'advice' and then having my efforts posted and declared to be 'disruptive'. And, burned by you, by speaking out and having you issue what I took to be a threat of a ban if I don't enter a mentor program.

Per your offer of assistance (above), please review what I posted and help me repost it in the correct format, in order to proceed in the same fashion as the COFS and Bus stop threads. I believe that Smee's history is much more disruptive and well documented than COFS, and it should not be any problem at all for you to help me establish the correct format, in order to proceed with a community ban (or mentorship program) for Smee. Lsi john 19:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

And, as I said before, I have no interest in the wikipedia litigation process. I compiled the information, per your request, as it seemed appropriate to the current thread. You have expressed a desire to 'clean up wikipedia' (my words), so I provided sufficient information to 'get started' on an issue. If you are unwilling to assist or pursue this, I will simply write it off to the contradictory, conflicting and unexplained actions of wikipedia, and some of its editors and admins. Peace in God. Lsi john 20:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. After carefully reading the top of the CSN page several times, it appears you are correct. The post against Smee was inappropriate for that page. As are the posts against COFS and Bus stop (and others?).

I originally had the feeling that the COFS (and Bus stop) threads were inappropriate, but was led to believe they were valid, by yourself and Jehochman. I trust you will be deleting those other two posts, and unblocking Bus stop?

I consider the matter closed from my perspective. Thank you for your patience. Lsi john 21:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Durova, the COFS thread has been closed by El C at my request. I felt I was too involved with several of the users to close it myself. (Hello there, Lsi john.) Bishonen | talk 21:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC).

Thanks, Bishonen. Lsi john, the other threads were specific requests for sanctions so they were appropriate for that board. I have no intention of silencing your concerns. It's just better to route these things appropriately. Go ahead and open a page at WP:RFC and if you think there's a case to be made against me you're welcome to present it there. I hope the situation irons itself out. Durova 01:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Triple crown

I would like to request a "Triple Crown" award. Please see my userpage for a list of my significant contributions. Thanks. Awadewit | talk 05:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

FA: Anna Laetitia Barbauld (primary editor)

GA: The Age of Reason (primary editor)

DYK: 1794 Treason Trials (primary editor)

Make that an "Imperial Triple Crown." Awadewit | talk 02:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

FA: Mary Wollstonecraft (primary editor)

GA: Mary Martha Sherwood (primary editor)

DYK: Priestley Riots (primary editor)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/HanzoHattori

As a user who has previously been in contact with this person, I am asking if you would be willing to be the second person to certify the basis for this dispute. Thank you. The Evil Spartan 20:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Although I'm not entirely unwilling to consider this request, it's been quite a few months since I blocked this editor. I see the editor has garnered a steady collection of userblocks since then. Am I really the best person to approach for this purpose? You may do better to approach someone whose interaction has been ongoing. Durova 20:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear Durova

I've sent you an e-mail. I'm not sure what to do in the future (in regards to the person mentioned in the e-mail). Advice would be appreciated. --Iamunknown 14:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll be right on it. Durova 16:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Durova, if I ask too much of you in the e-mail, let me know (I just saw User talk:Durova/Admin 2). If you only give advice on how I should approach this and future cases, I would sincerely appreciate that. --Iamunknown 17:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Your day for e-mail

It seems to be your day for e-mail! Peace.Lsi john 21:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

List of polio survivors

Hi Durova,

I've been working on the List of polio survivors with two other editors who are interested in polio-related articles. We are reaching the end of the process and hope to submit it to FLC soon. I'd very much appreciate if you could look at the text and point out any areas for improvement. Thanks, Colin° 22:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words and helpful comments. Colin° 17:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Admin coaching

Hi Durova,

Maybe I didn't make as much use of this relationship as I could have, but I thank you for what I did end up getting from it. I've had your page on my watchlist, you got me to participate over at COIN a little bit, which I'd like to actually be more active at than I am right now, and your interaction with other users has been a good example for me. Your triple crown motivated me to work on getting an article to GA status, and writing another article that ended up at DYK... just one FA away now :-). I ended up requesting adminship this past week and was successful. I look forward to working with you on some of the new tasks and at the classroom coordination once September rolls around. So, I guess you have one less student now. I'm still learning though, so I might throw a question your way now and then. Thanks again! Sancho 03:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations! Durova 18:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Business FAQ

You may be interested. That's just a start, please do expand and edit mercilessly if you feel motivated :) Kamryn Matika 04:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Good start. I suggest you link to WP:COIN and recommend that business people who suspect black hat attacks report suspected activity there. Also - and I leave it to you to evaluate this - I wrote the User:Durova/The dark side essay to counteract a serious underappreciation of the PR risks of careless activity. Durova 18:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Triple Crown

I think I'm eligible for a triple crown based on my content. DYK = Rollie Hemsley, GA = John Baldwin (founder), FL = 2004 NFL Draft. Hopefully the FL counts, not positive if it does. Wizardman 22:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Lekociv

Hi Durova, my protection had nothing to do with that account. I was alerted to a problem there by another, regular editor, and some of the criticism being added to it made it a clear BLP violation. I'm going to leave it protected until they produce some reliable third-party sources on talk that show there's enough for a well-rounded bio, rather than an attack page. SlimVirgin 05:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Newyorkbrad 22:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Brian Reddyb

Thanks for your handling of the Brian Reddyb issue. I'm glad an admin finally had the common sense to see through the hoax and take corrective action. However, I was wondering... do you think it might be prudent to run a checkuser on Sanchezsteamer? Even though I'm almost convinced that it's the same person as Reddyb, the evidence is not conclusive, and I would prefer if we could avoid risking complications being raised in the future.

Regarding the Misplaced Pages:Requests for investigation movement, personally I've become somewhat sceptical about the effectiveness of such noticeboards, especially following a recent case I was involved in where several admins on WP:AIAV refused to block a blatant and persistent vandal because of (what I perceive to be) a ridiculous loophole in Misplaced Pages policy (see , , and ). I only pursued the Brian Reddyb issue because I knew it was a clear-cut case from the beginning. Notwithstanding, I sincerely wish you the best of luck if you believe in reviving Misplaced Pages:Requests for investigation. Cheers. CounterFX 17:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

User with four edits, starting July 3 after previous sock was blocked, seems extremely familiar with WP policy, and has posted a bizarre copyright notice. I suggest an indef block for sock puppetry. Jehochman 21:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I have issued a request for a checkuser against Chiefofmsiss1 on grounds of evasion of the ban. It should not be long before the account is blocked. CounterFX 23:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser confirms. Jehochman 06:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

That thread

Not entirely surpised it has its detractors ... but this really is one of the funniest things I've seen in more than three years on the project. MastCell hit the nail on the head--it's life's most profound mysteries that inspire the most hilarious jokes. Best, Antandrus (talk) 18:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Nice to disprove the old saying "If you can keep your head while others around you are losing theirs.. you probably don't understand what's happening" ;) Seriously.. it's a very strange coincidence, but that's all it was. SirFozzie 16:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Wise RFC comment

I am very proud of John for this comment. Jehochman 16:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

:Durova, I'm not sure I understand your question to RIR. From what I can tell, RIR has been involved with mostly anti-viewpoint information. I find the post to be very contradictory and suspect someone 'signed' RIR's signature. Though only a checkuser could confirm that. Peace.Lsi john 19:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. I misread the diff and didn't realize RIR was 'quoting' someone else. Peace.Lsi john 19:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm still unclear as to the point of your question. RIR has provided negative information and didn't say that s/he didn't have an opinion about Juice Plus. Are you implying a former employee? Because, in fairness, I see the possibility of this being an example of your 'loose' non-attack non-accusation statements. If RIR said 'no relationship', then it should be 'no relationship'. For you to then suggest one, simply based on proximity, is not good faith. Peace.Lsi john 19:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that the anonymous IP was actually RIR and not someone impersonating him/her ? You've accused them of lying, based on what? Peace.Lsi john 20:16, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, it wasn't my intention to stir up a shitstorm here, but here goes. Given the information at hand, John's comment was quite reasonable and I wanted you, Durova, to see that he was making valuable contributions. The IP info about RIR is a new, and somewhat surprising revelation to me, and shows how well my mentor conducts complex investigations. For the record, I became interested in this RFC in the first place because of another surprising geographic connection--Elonka and Julia Griggs Havey (a Juice Plus spokesperson and distributor who had edited the article) live in the same city. That looked slightly odd to me, the same way RIR's presence near Juice Plus HQ is also an odd coincidence. At this point, I am definitely not suggesting actual wrongdoing by anybody, but if we investigate one geographic connection, we should also investigate the other too, in fairness to both sides. Darn it! I wish I could just ignore this whole situation, but I can't. Jehochman 21:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Jehochman, my objection is not with the suspicion. My objection is not with the investigation. My objection is with the very unprofessional, careless and wreckless accusation. There is no reason to believe that RIR Lied, even if she lives right next door to the plant. By implying she lied, insisting on an explanation, categorizing it as 'oddly coincidental', we cross the line from quietly investigating to publically accusing.

I have a very decided opinion about several companies and universities in my area, but that does not mean I have a conflict of interest. And my proximity to them should NEVER be used to suggest evidence that I've lied in a very direct and explicit statement about conflict of interest.

My concern is that Durova does not even realize the potential damage and harm she is doing when she makes these wreckless accusations. Peace.Lsi john 22:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

John, I like to forgive mistakes by other people in order to work with them and help them improve. Hopefully, other people will treat me the same way, because I make plenty of mistakes myself. Being perfect isn't a requirement for participating here. Jehochman 22:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Jehochman, and the very important and significant distinction there, is that you acknowledge your mistake(s). Tarnishing someone's reputation, with accusations of lying and masking a COI, with no evidence other than the proximity of an ISP, and then when questioned, instead of acknowledging and saying "oops, sorry", dragging in an unrelated Arbcom, is quite different. The key is "Ask and ye shall be forgiven." (ASK). Peace.Lsi john 22:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, I see that the accusations are flying fast and furious here. Just for the record, no, I am not friends with Havey, but yes, the geographic connection is one of the reasons that I was working on her article, because the fact that she's a "St. Louis author" is the reason I heard of her at all. I've also helped out with other articles related to St. Louis and Missouri, as I'm a participant at WikiProject Missouri. But to my knowledge, Havey and I have never physically met, and I absolutely positively have no business relationship with her or Juice Plus. --Elonka 23:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)