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Revision as of 21:40, 8 July 2007

Barack Obama

previous FAR

Messages left at Columbia Univ. Project, Hawaii, Illinois, U.S. Congress, and Bio. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

notified (used tool as instructed by sandygeorgia): Barack Obama talk page, Maximusveritas, Jersyko (knows and already commented), Bobblehead, SandyGeorgia (knows and already commented), Dereks1x, HailFire, Steve Dufour, MPS, Italiavivi, Manic Hispanic, Jogurney.

Feddhicks, I have notified the Projects that you failed to notify, and partially cleaned up and completed the notificatoins of relevant parties; pls complete the rest. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The article is of good quality and I think it would pass a good article nomination, but it is not of featured article quality anymore.

Well written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable

• The article is not stable and subject to an ongoing edit war. While I AGF and do not accuse the editors of being campaign workers, the edits of some editors (not named to prevent accusations) is trying to hide information, place some information in small print, deleting relevant information, etc. Some editors give up but this doesn't mean there is a concensus.
• Article is prone to vandalism and reverts possibly due to frustration of the edit warring.
• There are other contentious issues that no censensus has been reached. These can be found in the archives of the talk page. Essentially, many editors left wikipedia because a small group of editors kept insisting on doing it their way, even if it wasn't right.

Examples include the controversy (without commenting what the right thing to do about each controversy) about his Muslim education (or explaining that it was a controversy but there's no substance to allegations), police endorsement and opposition, Myspace and internet support, etc.

Images

• Poor image, makes his skin blotchy and unattractive (subtle POV edit warring or not?)

Length and focus

• Exceeds recommended article length but attempts to shorten have only led to edit warring.

Loss of featured article status is no big deal. Prime Minister Blair's article is very good and loss of FA status does diminish Blair's reputation. Feddhicks 18:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• The article has not changed to such a significant degree since its last FAR as to warrant further review. The edit warring noted above is being perpetuated by that editor. Since the only other substantial reason given for delisting that doesn't reference edit warring is "Poor image, makes his skin blotchy and unattractive", this article should obviously not be delisted. · jersyko talk 18:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The lack of consensus is more than one editor. I am only concerned about hiding information by putting an important phrase in small print hidden in the footnotes, instead of the main article.

Other editors with other disputes include Group 1: Jersyko, Tvoz, Bobblehead; Group 2: Italiaviva, Jogurney; and the independent group: ManicHispanic, Vintagekits, UTAFA, Nuclearj, Hempbilly, and many others. All total, there are about a dozen disputes where all the editors have not reached an agreement (although some got fed up and left).

There is more than one area of edit warring. I don't represent the other editors and they have their own beef with the article, some of which seem to be very reasonable proposals.

The lack of FA status can be good. It does not say Senator Obama is bad because his article is not an FA. In fact, it encourages cooperation to improve the article rather than false resting on its laurels.

Feddhicks 19:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• This FAR seems to be largely in response to a dispute over some minor content and whether it is adequately covered by including the content in a footnote rather than in the main body of the article and subsequent accusations of sockpuppetry. As far as the issues raised by the submitter:

• Two reverts of actual content over two days does not make an edit war.
• The article is of a highly visible person whose chosen profession is going to draw attention from vandals and the four edits from the vandalism only account and three subsequent reverts are a function of that. Granted, the page is on fairly permanent semi-protection, so that does cut down on the vandalism quite a bit.
• Because a subject is frequently raised by different people does not mean that consensus has not been reached. I'm not going to go into detail on the specific examples given, except to say on the general level of "controversies" those have all been rather minor in regards to Obama and the amount of weight given to them has to be measured carefully.
• The image is free... What's there to complain about?
• The article's readable text is well within Misplaced Pages's guidelines, the size of the article is due solely to the 168 citations that have been used to support the article. All of which have been necessary because of the level of attention the article has gotten. To say attempts to shorten the article has been met with edit wars is a bit of an overstatement of what's been happening. Shortening the readable text more than what has already occurred would be detrimental to the article.

• Granted, if some of the other reviewers can find things wrong with the article beyond what the initial reviewer has "found", that'd be excellent. --Bobblehead 20:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

What does "Group 1," "Group 2," etc mean?

I am confused by Fred's description. Italiavivi 21:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. Feddhicks, please follow instruction number 6 at the top of the WP:FAR page, notify all relevant parties, and leave a record here (see other FARs for an example). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC) Done

Pasted from talk page: Comment - I am satisfied with the footnote mention of the Rezko relationship. My understanding from previous discussions (see Bobblehead's list above) was that most editors agreed that the controversy/relationship was notable but to give it more than a sentence or footnote mention would give it undue weight (compared to other more significant topics in this article). Other political candidate articles have used similar techniques (footnote mention of notable but minor controversies) such as Ron Paul. I hope this helps. Best regards. Jogurney 19:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ron Paul's article doesn't use tricky tactics as this article. That footnote further expands on a sentence in the article. The Paul article says there is controversy and explains the controversy in the footnoot. The Obama article makes no mention of the house controversy and then hides a one sentence in the footnotes that mentions the controversy. The Ron Paul footnote is in normal print. The Obama footnote is in such small print that some people can't even see it. Therefore, Jogurney's logic proves there is a problem.

SteveDufour removed the POV tag because he said "no topic was added to talk page to discuss possible problems" This shows how bad the small print in the footnote is. Steve read the personal life section and then looked at the talk page and didn't see any personal life discussion. However, the footnote is part of the personal life discussion. It is so hidden that a veteral editor, one who has edited Barack Obama more than hundreds and is in the top few editors as far as number of Barack Obama edits, did not even see it. This proves that the small print is a problem. Feddhicks 16:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult for me to assume good faith on the part of an obvious sock of a banned user. It's obvious to me that this FAR exists solely to draw attention to a single content dispute on a minor point. A FA will not be delisted almost solely because of the size of a bit of text in a footnote. This is an improper use of FAR, an attempt to skirt the required dispute resolution methods, and a violation of WP:POINT. I cannot take this FAR seriously. · jersyko talk 17:11, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

And if pictures are an issue, check out the public domain photos I have found at Google images. Pick one and upload it. User:Zscout370 08:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• I was not notified of this FAR, and I can guess why. This is just another tactic by a sock of a banned user who has used these tactics repeatedly to disrupt editing on many Misplaced Pages articles. Indeed some of the names he lists here are known or suspected socks of the same user. Bobblehead's summary and analysis is correct, as is Jersyko's, and this is an improper use of FAR. The RFC he instituted a couple of days ago didn't yield the support he wanted so he's now instituted a FAR and is canvassing for his POV as well. This is just one more disruption in a very long history. Tvoz |talk 15:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

AGF, you guess wrong. You wikistalk by following me to obscure article and disrupting these articles so I knew you would come here. If you did not wikistalk or come here, then I would have notified you. You just proved again that you wikistalk. Can't you see that you are part of the problem. Even Bobblehead, who I don't agree with has a calming effect but your edits cause disruption. Again more proof of edit warring which makes an article unsuitable for FA. With no FA status, there will be incentive for you to reach consensus so that we can bring the article back to FA status. Are you opposed to making an article better?

Do not look at me as the bad guy. I do not re-revert stuff on the article. I discuss, like here. Many others actually edit war by making the reverts and try to stop discussion, like this FAR.Feddhicks 16:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Feddhicks commentary

This is proof that there are many edit warring problems in this article making it unsuitable for FA (but quite possibly suitable for a GA). All this edit warring above involves only one of many issues.

Other issues involve other problems. These include (taking quotes from the talk pages):

Relentless Censorship of Anything that Would Hurt Obama

Why is it that I added something to this article about Barack Obama's opposition to a bill protecting infant victims of botched abortions and it was deleted by another user MINUTES later? Can somebody explain why CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM of Barack Obama is deleted with no explanation? Also, there is NOTHING negative about him in the whole article. Compare that to any article about a REPUBLICAN Presidential candidate and you will see what I mean. But for now, I will re-add the article from world net daily and hope that none of the censors (obama supporters/staffers) don't delete for fear it will take away from the positiveness of this fluff piece.

Has anyone else noticed how any mention of anything controversial regarding Obama does not survive in this article. It appears to be a tool for the Obama '08 campaign and they are stomping out all opposition in fascistic style. Can someone please report what's been going on here to the wikipedia administrators.

"not easily pegged to typical U.S. categories of the left or right"?

Hi. While I am inclined to support Obama (we're both left-handed smokers), my BS detector lights up a little after reading this. In the Political Image section it describes him as being neither lefty nor righty. He's been against the Iraq war since day one (a position typically reserved for the extremes on both sides - like Ron Paul or Denis Kucinich), is pro-choice and advocates universal healthcare. In 2007 America this combination puts you on the left.

Biased report on police endorsement

Hellfire made an edit in September. Essentially, it says that Obama got the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police and a citation is given. However, looking at that citation , the Chicago Tribune article actually said " 'I don't see him as pro-law enforcement," said Wheaton police Chief Mark Field. "I could spend hours with this man talking about his voting record. It is very anti-public safety." The crowd of 60 police officials applauded only once during Obama's 20-minute remarks. The whole article is about the chilly reception that Obama got.

This does not seem like very balanced reporting by Hellfire. It seems like there is a POV being pushed, i.e. trying to convince the reader that Obama has police support.

It's really very hard for me to see that this is other than biased editing by Hellfire. Furthermore, it wasn't just an honest mistake in editing because Hellfire recently reverted Italiavivi's correction accurately summarizing the citation back to the biased, one sided summary of the Chicago Tribune citation.

Picture

I don't feel Barak's picture is from a neutral point of view. This looks like an image from the campaign for his presidency.

Let me get this straight. A flattering picture of a person violates NPOV? Are you serious? KyuzoGator 15:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

(editor's note) so an unflattering picture may violate NPOV?

What is the image being considered a possible POV issue? The infobox photo? User:Zscout370 19:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Race and "blackness"

Since his Senate race in 2004, some American politicians and commentators, many African-American, have asserted that Sen. Obama is not "African-American" or not "black like me" because he was not descended from American slaves. His "blackness" has been questioned.

(editor's note) was overwhelming noted by many to be notable.

Antoin Rezko real estate

In November 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his participation in a real estate deal to which Antoin "Tony" Rezko, an Obama campaign contributor, was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and said "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it."

(editor's note) was found to be notable. No discussion was made on using small print despite false claims of a consensus.

Misplaced Pages has spoken

After reviewing the ongoing discussion regarding Senator Barack Obama's categorization as an "Irish American Politician,"

(editor's note) The consensus outnumber the minority by almost 2-1, yet the minority imposed their views.

These are just from ONE page of 9 in the archives. Also note that I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the above quotes, just that they raise some important questions that a censensus has NOT been reached. Feddhicks 16:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Res ipsa loquitur. Tvoz |talk 17:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
  • At this rate, some of this content may need to be refactored to Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review/Barack Obama. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Fine by me. User:Zscout370 21:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)