Misplaced Pages

Talk:Authentic Matthew: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 04:05, 22 May 2005 editMelissadolbeer (talk | contribs)403 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit Revision as of 23:13, 28 May 2005 edit undo-Ril- (talk | contribs)10,465 edits MNext edit →
(One intermediate revision by the same user not shown)
Line 134: Line 134:


By the way ANON, I have read the other material you have submitted to the Misplaced Pages and found it to be thought-provoking and interesting. Looking forward to your "scholarly" response on Authentic Matthew. I have undone the merge submitted by By George and at present both the Gospel of the Nazarenes and Authentic Matthew stand on their own to be debated and eventually revised. -- Melissa By the way ANON, I have read the other material you have submitted to the Misplaced Pages and found it to be thought-provoking and interesting. Looking forward to your "scholarly" response on Authentic Matthew. I have undone the merge submitted by By George and at present both the Gospel of the Nazarenes and Authentic Matthew stand on their own to be debated and eventually revised. -- Melissa

== M ==

M is not the original matthew.
M is '''defined''' as those elements which are not in either Q or Mark, but are in Matthew. <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> 23:13, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:13, 28 May 2005

To resolve conflict, I have merged articles.--By George

Unable to resolve conflict, therefore added template.--By George


The Discussion Continues

The template requires discussion of the article and ultimately revision of the article. Then, the template placed by user By George can be removed.


Historical Background

Traditional view

From the Middle Ages through the Reformation to the end of the 18th century, most Biblical scholars believed there was only one gospel of Matthew, written by the Apostle Matthew in Hebrew. It was further believed that this was the first gospel to be written. Finally, it was accepted that this gospel was translated into Greek and included in the Canon.

Synoptic Problem

Like the authors of the other gospels, the author wrote this book according to his own plans and aims and from his own point of view, while at the same time borrowing from other sources. According to the two-source hypothesis (the most commonly accepted solution to the synoptic problem), Matthew borrowed from both Mark and a hypothetical sayings collection, known by scholars as Q (for the German Quelle, meaning "source"). Therefore it became accepted that the Gospel of Matthew in the Bible was

a) not written by Matthew;

b) not the earliest gospel to be written;

c) not originally written in Koine Greek.

M Source

Streeter argued that a third source, referred to as M and also hypothetical, lies behind the material in Matthew that has no parallel in Mark or Luke. Through the remainder of the 20th century there were various challenges and refinements of Streeter's hypothesis, such as Parker (1953) who posited an early version of Matthew (proto-Matthew) as a the primary source. Although Parker's view was hotly debated, an "early version" of Matthew was refered to in more than 25 times in the writings of the Early Church Fathers.


Twenty-first century view

With the growth of "evangelical" Christianity, the majority of Christians have reverted to the traditional view that there is only one Gospel of Matthew: the one included in the Bible, that is believed to be inspired by God and written by the apostle. This view is not widely accepted in academic circles, nor by the Jesus Seminar.

Eusebius

Please note that Eusebius is not regarded as a reliable source in this field. Eusebius is 4th century. Iranaeus (of Lyons) (possibly spelt wrongly) is a much more reliable source. He is mid 2nd century, and even though he is a church father (and thus extremely biased) he nethertheless reports on the views of his opponents, and thus gives us both sides of the case. He is also much closer to the period.-- ANON


Dear ANON,

Certainly the area of Authentic Matthew has been a controversial one. Your points are good, and I agree with the above. However, most scholars concur that the catalogue of Eusebius is an accurate reflection of the works surviving to his time. -- Melissa


Also, listing Eusebius' choice of what is and isnt heresy is not relevant to an article about the gospel of matthew/M/nazoreans/hebrews. It is only relevant to Eusebius. Other people (including Iranaeus, Origen, and Celsus) had different views on the matter. -- ANON

Dear ANON,

There are those who think that Eusebius is a great church scholar. Our point of view is not relevant. In controversial areas, even sources with which we have difficulty should be cited. That is why "the fragments" contained a variety of sources including Origen, Iranaeus, etc. -- Melissa



Likewise, your own view of the origin of the biblical canon has no place in an encylopedia. Your view, is by its very nature, a view, and therefore not factual, is original research, and also not reporting on the views of scholars/relevant persons on the matter. In addition, it is not relevant to the articles you have inserted it into, as it belongs inarticles such as Gospel of Matthew and History of Christianity and Historicity of Jesus to name but a few. -- ANON

Dear ANON,

You jump to the wrong conclusion. There is much in the article on Authentic Matthew with which I disagree. Indeed, my point of view is probably closer to yours than that of the article. That is why I was pleased when user By George merged the two articles. Also, the article on Authentic Matthew is merely a summary of the writings from the early church to now. -- Melissa



Furthermore, Jerome is widely regarded as being inaccurate in this area, not least because he can't tell the difference between the gospel of the hebrews, the gospel of the nazoreans, and the gospel of the ebionites, which are distinct. We know that he can't tell the difference because he quotes from each of these but names them all as the gospel of the hebrews. As such, it makes what he says about hebrews unreliable, as it very difficult to seperate how much of what he says should correspond to a particular one of the texts, and how much to another, and how much is a conclusion he has erroneously reached because he has conflated the three texts into one. -- ANON

Dear ANON,

There are those who agree with what you say about Jerome, but there are many who believe he is a reliable source. Therefore, his writings must be included in any authoritative article. -- Melissa


As you appear to be concentrating your contributions on the apocrypha, at the moment, I would recommend you first read "Apocryphal Gospels:An introduction" by "Hans-Josef Klauck". -- ANON

Dear ANON,

I have. -- Melissa



Jerome vs. Hans-Josef Klauck

The difficulty is that Klauck does not have a copy of the document in question. Therefore, all he has to say about it is speculation.

Jerome, who is a respected writer of his time, and whose works have stood the test of time, has the advantage of living in the time period when the document is in existence. According to the GHeb fragments, Jerome has before him a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew which he refers to as the Hebrew Gospel or the Gospel of the Hebrews, but most of his contemporaries call this document Authentic Matthew.

Jerome is able to quote from it, translate it, and evaluate it. Jerome also knows its history, that it is used by the Ebionites, and also by the Nazarenes (apparently it was the Nazarene community that made a complete copy available to him). In his time, there is still a copy in the library at Caesarea.

Eusebius has the same advantage. You and I may disagree with the way he set up his catalogue of early Christian writings, but he, like Jerome, has the great advantage of living in a time when the document in question was still in existence.

In a Misplaced Pages article, all major works must be canvassed from a neutral point of view and be evaluated critically. Jerome, and particularly Eusebius, have their bias and their weaknesses, but they also have access to the document in question, which Klauck does not. (See GHeb fragments at the end of the article on Authentic Matthew.)



Authentic Matthew

Authentic Matthew remains one of the most controversial areas of biblical scholarship, and therefore makes it difficult to write a fully unbiased Misplaced Pages article. There are approximately twenty positions regarding this work that was called Authentic Matthew by the majority of writers in the Early Church. The following are the five major positions:


1. No such thing as Authentic Matthew


Many modern biblical scholars believe that the apostle Matthew never wrote a gospel. They include such scholars as Klauck, Streeter, and the two-source theory, which states that the Gospel of Matthew was written by an unknown editor who merged earlier sources and the oral tradition.

2. Authentic Matthew existed.

This position is supported by the fact that it is cited in the theological discussions of the Early Church fathers.

3. The Gospel of Matthew is Authentic Matthew.

This position states that Matthew wrote a gospel, that is the one that we have in the Bible today. This was the majority opinion until modern biblical scholarship pointed out that the Canonical Gospel was based on Greek sources and not an eye witness account.

4. My point of view.

Matthew wrote a Gospel in Aramaic. Because it was difficult to translate into Greek, sources such as Mark, Q, etc., were used in the translation. Thus, the heavy reliance on Q and Mark in the Canonical Gospel of Matthew.

5. Different Gospels.

This position states that the Gospel of Matthew, Authentic Matthew, the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Gospel of the Nazarenes, the Gospel of the Ebionites, the Hebrew Gospel, etc., are all different gospels.


Summary

The purpose of the article "Authentic Matthew" is to put forward the information that we know in an unbiased fashion, not emphasizing any one point of view. Therefore it is important to discuss and edit but not to merely delete or redirect. Where no consensus can be reached, both theories must be put forward so that the reader is fully informed.

By the way ANON, I have read the other material you have submitted to the Misplaced Pages and found it to be thought-provoking and interesting. Looking forward to your "scholarly" response on Authentic Matthew. I have undone the merge submitted by By George and at present both the Gospel of the Nazarenes and Authentic Matthew stand on their own to be debated and eventually revised. -- Melissa

M

M is not the original matthew. M is defined as those elements which are not in either Q or Mark, but are in Matthew. ~~~~ 23:13, 28 May 2005 (UTC)