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2003 - June 2007

Pictures of Muhammad (continued)

With respect to this subject let me mention here that pictorial dipictions of Our PROPHET (May Peace be upon HIM) or any other kind of attempt in this regard is total violation of Islamic values. It is an open defiance to the Sacredness of the PROPHET of ISLAM. Picture being relevant is not the issue here. The issue here is the Peronality it is depicting. This issue may be of little interest to many people but for followers of Islam it is very serious.Any picture may be offensive to anyone but this particular picture is depicting a PERSONALITY whose sacredness is beyond any doubt. This picture is offensive to whole of the Muslim Ummah and we all want it removed from this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 05:30, July 4, 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but Islamic values have no place at Wiki as wiki is a medium for knowledge and learning, not religous worship. Therefore Misplaced Pages policy takes precedence over islamic taboo See WP:CENSOR. Dman727 06:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

We would like to now what knowledge this particular picture provides to non-muslims or for that matter to muslims as well ? Learning to respect each other's religious values is better way to sort out differences. This particular picture is likely to create more confusion then sense. The problem here is that every one seems to judge things according to his/her own perspective with least knowledge of facts. If this issue is being pursued then it is clear that something is seriuosly wrong with this particular picture. Why not just replace it with actual picture of the black stone to close this issue once and for all and stop offensive remarks on each other's way of thinking and religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 04:53, July 5, 2007 (UTC)

We? Who is we? Misplaced Pages is not oriented towards Islam, nor any other religion. Its about knowledge - see WP:CENSOR I'm sorry that you personally find this offensive, however it would violate many wiki principles to censor the encylopedia to conform to a minority religious viewpoint. For that matter no encyclopedia at all would be possible if it attempt to conform to all religions. I would suggest not viewing the picture so as to avoid being offended. Dman727 05:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

why doesnt anyone realize that by displaying such blasphemeous content, the credibilty of wiki as whole becomes at stake. when this particular picture can very easily be substituted with actual picture of the black stone. i am trying to upload but with their seems to be some error. so if anyone is willing i can e-mail that picture to him and he/she can upload it. please stop mixing up blasphemy with knowledege. This picture provides hardly any knowledge while on the other end it is of offensive nature. so please do realize the importance of this issue and do not behave in narrow minded way. All dipictions of this sort should be avoided at all costs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 12:06, July 9, 2007 (UTC)

The painting isnt blasphemeous, nor offensive, nor even a picture (its a painting). Maybe to a few, but for those you can always try Islamopedia or simply closing your eyes. The painting is relevant, tasteful and extremely relative to the text at hand. Have you read the accompanying text?? What wikipolicy dictates that we must avoid it (at all cost no less)? Remember Islamo-policy has no relevance here, only wikipolicy. Frankly, this sillyness is starting to get quite annoying. Dman727 12:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

How you can decide if it is not blasphemeous and offensive. Are you Muslim? It is extremely offensive and blasphemeous for Muslims. --- A. L. M. 12:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Simple - I used the same process that you used to decide it is. Our religion has NO bearing here. See WP:CENSOR Dman727 13:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That is different debate and for its answer look at there. However, now you admit that it is (or may be) offensive to Muslims. Hence you will not say it again that "The painting isnt blasphemeous, nor offensive"? At least give us that much for God sake. --- A. L. M. 13:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Dman727 -- are you saying that the offence a picture causes part of the readership has absolutely no bearing on whether it should appear on Misplaced Pages? If so, I think you may be in the minority on that view. To make a rational decision, one must always weigh the positive against the negative with regards to Misplaced Pages's goals. If Misplaced Pages's goal is to inform, then the positive would be the knowledge conveyed by the photo, while the negative would be the alienation of a segment of the population. To be dominated by the latter would be irrational, but to ignore it entirely would be equally irrational. --P3d0 13:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

If an article is offensive to a majority of people, is not noteable, and doesnt inform then its certainly reasonable to remove it. In this case, this very old painting is noteable, informs and is tasteful to majority of the worlds population. Is offense 100% irrelevant? Perhaps not. But then I note the article Cleveland_steamer, one I find extremely offensive - probably to a majority of the worlds population, and only slightly noteable, yet the wiki community finds that the article meets wiki standards for inclusion (btw I've never voted on that article). In short "offense" is one of the least concerns. Dman727 13:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's hard not to agree to remove an image that if an image is simultaneously offensive, non-notable, and uninformative. Leaving aside your other points for a moment, what I'd like to figure out is, where is the line drawn? To me it would seem logical that if an image's negative attributes outweigh its pedagogical value, then it should be removed. Can we agree on this as a starting point? --P3d0 17:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh thats easy, the line is community consensus and wiki policy. This is hardly new ground. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel here, this same exact discussion has been hashed out several times (with the same objectors) on other articles. See Depictions_of_Muhammad, Black_stone, Talk:Muhammad/Mediation, Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy and a few others.Dman727 17:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The consensus is that such images can be included, if they are presented in a respectful way. I would also point out that though there are indeed traditions in the Muslim community which avoid images of Muhammad, that these traditions are directed towards Muslims, not towards non-Muslims. It would be inappropriate for a Muslim to go through the Library of Congress ripping out any page that had an image of Muhammad. It would be equally inappropriate for an orthodox Jew to go through a supermarket destroying anything that was non-kosher. Or for a Christian from the Midwest to go through a California liquor store and berate them for selling alcohol on a Sunday. Let's please keep individualized customs, separate from creating a source of knowledge. The images of Muhammad at Misplaced Pages are intended to inform -- not to antagonize, not to evangelize. They are intended to educate. Removing them would do a disservice to those who have a genuine good faith desire for knowledge. --Elonka 18:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Is there a relevant policy? That would be ideal. Thanks for the links. --P3d0 18:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

No one on this page has clearly stated what really does this image convey ? All the discussion on this topic clearly shows something is very wrong about this picture. This picture does not conform with Islamic principles so crediblity of the article and the knowledge it is suppose to provide is questionable. All the More so then this article is less of facts and more of fabricated non-Islamic material as this picture clearly indicates. If such pictures are to inform about PROPHET (SAW) then equally well they are wrong since Islam prohibits such depictions. If such pictures are to inform about Islam then they dont provide the clear picture about Islam as they are strongly prohibited. If such pictures are to inform about Kaaba then it is totally out of place. A picture of black stone is ore relevent here. If this picture is suppose to portray open mindedness then such iressponsible acts have resulted in un-warranted loss to many people of differing faiths. Non-Muslims dont realize this fact that is why they are insisting on keeping this image.

so is wiki a media of knowlegde or ignorance. Result is wiki being used by people who are happy and satisfied with defaming other religions and playing with sentiments of people of other faiths in the name of knowledge. so once again it is stressed that this picture be removed from this article and actual picture of black stone be placed in its place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) (06:12, July 10, 2007 (UTC)

I understand that English is not the first language of some of the editors here, so let me try to explain: The image is used with respect. It is a picture about something that happened at the Kaaba, so it is right for it to be here. Please do not use Muslim rules here. I understand that some Muslims say that there should be no images of Muhammad. These are rules that some Muslims follow. That is okay. But please understand. The rules about no images of Muhammad are religious rules. The rules apply to Muslims. They do not apply to non-Muslims. Please do not force Muslim rules on non-Muslims. You said that people want to defame other religions, but please, this is not correct. There is no desire here to defame religions. There is only the desire for knowledge. Please respect that Misplaced Pages is here to provide information -- not to promote religion. Misplaced Pages does not promote Christianity or Judaism or Islam or any other religion. The desire here is just for knowledge, to make Misplaced Pages like a very large library. We want a peaceful and respectful location to provide knowledge to the entire world. That is all. Peace. --Elonka 07:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If you have to add images then do add them we cannot stop you. However please stop saying following. "The image is used with respect.". No they are not. They are disrespect to us and great disrespect. Hence stop saying so at least. Pleasee. Secondly do not say that "I understand that some Muslims say that there should be no images of Muhammad.". Not SOME but very vast majority of Muslims dislike those images. Thanks. -- A. L. M. 10:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

This article (and a lot of its supporters) is claiming to present knowledge about the Holiest place of Islam at one end and on the other displaying images of The Highest PERSONALITY of the Islamic World with the pretext of knowledge which is strictly forbidden in the same religion. where has all the sense gone? cant anyone understand this important point. The Islamic rules apply to every thing related to Islam either person or location or article. Dont you see the point here ? This means that non-muslims cannot and should not interfere with core Islamic values and leave them as they are. on the other hand if non-muslims want to contribute some knowledge about Islam then they should be careful enough to exclude what voilates the Islamic values. no one not even muslims are allowed to make such irresponsible acts on pretext of knowledge. you people are talking about censor. what i want here is an actual picture of black stone on the wall of KAABA which will be all the more informative then an image which was made by someone (who Knows) and its legitimacy is highly questionable from knowledge point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 09:43, July 10, 2007 (UTC)

There's a response to this whole issue of image insertion: User:Matt57/Pictures of Muhammad and Misplaced Pages policies. In short, removing these images is against Misplaced Pages policy. --Matt57 14:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

(reply to 124.29.249.34) By "respect", I mean that our intentions are good, to show an image that honors Muhammad in a positive way. If we wanted to be disrespectful, we would show images like these. Instead, the consensus of Misplaced Pages editors is to use positive images of Muhammad that show him in a good light, as a wise man who made peace. I am confused as to how anything could be more respectful than that. --Elonka 16:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no question of being respectful of not. A pictorial depiction is very strong voilation of the values your article is trying to project here. This picture only seems to be informative for those who have blocked their minds to the simple fact that it is wrong, blasphemous and shows very little to one's knowledge. People keep on saying that deleting this image is against the policy of wiki. If that is so then why an actual image of black stone which was substituted yesterday has been promptly removed and this blasphemous picture placed in its place. This clearly shows discrimination on part of wiki as the editing is being made conditional according to the terms of those who control wiki.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghulam muhammad21 (talk • contribs) 05:48, July 11, 2007 (UTC)

The article is not attempting to project Islamic values (nor any other religion). The article is attempting to educate. In fact, if the article DID project Islamic values, it would likely constitute a violation of WP:NPOV. It is respectful, tasteful, encylopedic, it is not blasphemous to most people. While it is true that offends a small minority of vocal people, that is irrelevant to the task of writing an encylopedia and the overwhelming consensus supports its inclusion. If the picture offends you, I suggest that you not view it. 07:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is projecting something very important to Islam and at the same time depicting something more important in a false and blasphemous manner. What education does this particular picture give ? if everyone is so consious of wiki's policy, then why a legitimate edit is being reverted every time it is made i.e an actual picture of black stone is put in place of this offensive picture. why majority of you are in favour of a picture already mentioned and accepted as offensive for many people? why an actual picture of the black stone (which non-muslims dont see or have not seen) should not be placed here when the topic is related to the mounting of stone itself in Holy Kaaba's wall? why is this issue being compared to pictures of private body parts on some article ? Is this the respect people have for other people's faith and religion? what is meant by saying that this picture is presented with respect when making such pictures itself is strongly condemnable?

wiki will be equally educative and useful if this picture is removed or substituted. wiki's content is taken as fairly authentic by almost all of its users. now if this particaular content (regarding some topic) is falefully conveyed and still many people support it as educative then the credibilty of such people's intentions regarding inter-faith harmony become questionable.Education is important but falsehood should not be allowed to creep into it.That is why this matter needs to be sorted out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 11:54, July 11, 2007 (UTC)

Can I clarify something here? Do you believe that there are people who truly do not find the images offensive? Or do you think that everyone adding the images to this article must be doing so to cause controversy and disruption? --P3d0 16:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Controversy and disruption of what actual facts ? People who have added this blasphemous picture in the first place should have been asked the question. It is they who have placed a controversial image knowing very well its implications and under the pretext that it does not offend them. well it offends those who are related to whole of Islam. It offends those who know that it is not permissible. It offends those who know that its inclusion in this article is more of ignorance then fact. Finally it offends those who know that it is really an act to put down Islam very directly. On the other hand it does not offend those who have very little or no knowledge about this issue, who have no sympahty for followers of other faiths, who give more importance to wrong than right based on their own narrow-mindedness.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs)

Page protection

I've protected because of the recent reverting over the image. Could someone explain what the issue is, and whether an alternative image could be found that would satisfy all parties? SlimVirgin 12:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The issue is simple: Muhammad is shown. Some editors feel that the appearance of Muhammad anywhere violates their religion. The trouble is that this image is very notable - it is one of the earliest surviving depictions of Muhammad - and couldn't be more topical - it depicts exactly the legend which is recounted in the text. If this tradition is not topical to the article, or too marginal to be mentioned, that is another discussion which I've not yet seen.Proabivouac 12:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for protecting page, Slim

(Slim, didn't see your edit above.)

Attention trolls: The picture of Muhammad does not have consensus. BYT 12:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I thought it was the main image that was being objected to. Could an alternative be found to the image of Muhammad? SlimVirgin 12:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Pro could help us look for one, as the seasoned consensus-builder in residence on this page. BYT 12:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Curb your sarcasm, BYT. As long as the article discusses the story of Muhammad and the Kaaba, an image of the same is on-topic.Proabivouac 12:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

And manifestly lacks consensus. By the way, we have a rule around here that you can't revert a page more than three times in a twenty-four-hour period. BYT 12:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, so why not start with anon who reverted seven times? (whereas my last revert was a self-revert after ALM's vexatious report) Do you really expect that anyone will believe that you are only here to ensure that others play by the rules? Anon was blocked for vandalism, BYT; reverting vandalism is upholding the rules, not violating them.Proabivouac 12:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

It's only "vandalism" when you disagree with the content, apparently. Yes, anon should have been blocked. Yes, anon was engaged in discussions on this talk page. Yes, this was a content dispute. Yes, you are still obliged to play by the rules. There were four reverts:

• 07:18, 10 July 2007
• 07:27, 10 July 2007
• 09:44, 10 July 2007
• 10:34, 10 July 2007

To the point. This image you're so enthusiastic about -- have you won consensus for it on this talk page? BYT 12:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

See this self-revert, BYT.

Anyhow, so what you're saying is, anon can revert an arbitrary number of times (however many he/she can get away with before block) - and who knows what is the regular usename of anon, or if it is even affected - while those which revert him/her are blocked for doing so. I am absolutely certain that you would not hold this stance were this material any kind of slur against your beloved POV. Otherwise, you might want to start with User:DavidYork71, whose socks have often been reverted as of late.Proabivouac 13:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am pretty sure I asked you whether you had secured consensus for the image you are trying to insert. Is there a reason you don't want to address that question, Pro? BYT 13:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, mediation showed a very clear consensus to include depictions of Muhammad. Ignoring !votes in blatant contempt of policy only makes it that much clearer. What is your reason for removing them, besides your personal religious sensibilities? There is none.Proabivouac 13:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

"Blatant contempt of policy" -- it doesn't sound to me like you're showing much good faith here. And I'm a veteran. I shudder to think what traumas the newbies may be experiencing here. Or is it policy to bite them now?

Two questions: 1) Is it your position that it simply doesn't matter whether there's consensus to include an image at Kaaba? (Not Muhammad, Pro -- Kaaba.) That's not how I understood the principles guiding this encyclopedia.

2) Once again -- and I'm only repeating myself because I can't seem to gauge your response to this -- would you say that the image you are trying to include has attained consensus? How would you describe the editorial reaction to it? BYT 13:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, spare us the wikilawyering. Everyone knows your reasons by now, and yes, including depictions of Muhammad on Misplaced Pages has earned very broad consensus, broader (judging from the number of editors) than almost anything else we discuss here. I encourage you to open an RfC for this or any other article.Proabivouac 13:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• You can call it wikilawyering if you want.
• I think the people who know what they're doing around here (and I certainly number you among them) have an obligation to try to find some common ground.
• If I can accept the necessity for consensus at Zionism, I see no reason why you can't make an effort here.
• Once again -- do you think it's worthwhile to try to attain consensus for the edits you want to make on this page? BYT 13:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

But doesn't 'common ground' mean 'remove all pictures of the Prophet from any article'? Tom Harrison 13:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

With respect, it certainly doesn't mean that at Muhammad, Tom. BYT 13:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

My impression is that, there, it is only a truce. I have not seen much acknowledgment that there is a consensus to include the pictures. Tom Harrison 13:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There was disagreement on the type of depictions (e.g. veiled or unveiled) and their placement (lead or not), but a clear consensus that at least some depictions would be included, and overwhelming support for the notion that Muhammad should be treated no differently from any other historical figure - but repeated blanking does just that.Proabivouac 21:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• I can only speak for myself. After the Danish cartoons thing, I realized consensus was the only meaningful yardstick here. As a practical matter, whether something, and particularly an image, offends Muslims is now totally beside the point. (See that article, by the way -- there was overwhelming consensus to include patently offensive images, and I've contented myself with improving the text.)

• It's not a truce, what's happening at Muhammad -- it's a quite purposeful piece of humiliation. But it has to stand if there is consensus, which there is.

• Were you aware, Tom, that there was a movement there recently to include an image of the Prophet being disemboweled? There was no consensus for that. Every once in a while there's evidence around here of an encyclopedia, as opposed to a live grenade in text form. BYT 13:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok BYT, removing these images is against Misplaced Pages policy. See User:Matt57/Pictures of Muhammad and Misplaced Pages policies. --Matt57 14:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Matt, and for the link to your userpage. If it's all right with you, I'll talk to some of the other Justices on the bench, too. BYT 14:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, You will not find a policy that states that you have the right to not be offended. Wiki is not censored.--Strothra 16:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. My point has never been that I am (or am not) offended, and I have ventured no such opinion about the image under dispute. (Read my posts, please, if you're interested in taking part in this discussion.) Rather, my point is that that there exists no consensus to place this image in the article. And also that editors who know better should abide by 3RR without attempting to tapdance their way around it. BYT 19:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I was already involved in this discussion before on the Muhammad article. The arguments are based on the same premises except for you claim that no consensus exists which I hardly agree with. Wiki policies and the majority of editors seem to support it except for those few who argue that the images are offensive - that argument, however, is not valid. Your argument is simply a red herring. --Strothra 21:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit surpised at the claim that there is no consensus. This has been raised repeatedly (by the same few folks), and the result is always the same. The images are perfectly fine and only offend a small minority of folks who make it a career to be offended by them here on wiki. Dman727 21:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That's because consensus does exist. BYT's attempt to assert otherwise does not make it true. Consensus existed on this same issue through recent and lengthy mediation on the Muhammad article. We have already achieved supermajority and consensus (see Wp:consensus#Consensus_vs._supermajority) through mediation in addition to this debate. Really, this issue has been solved already and any further disruptions due to it are bordering on violating WP:POINT particularly through BYT's consistent reversions. --Strothra 21:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• ALM
• Myself
• 124.29.249.34
• Ghulam Muhammad
• Zora

... are in opposition to the image. Pro and Matt57 appear to support, as does Dman727 and Strothra. SlimVirgin has asked whether a compromise image can be found, but I suspect that does not necessarily mean she supports our view of this. Tom has taken no position, as far as I can see.

If User:Strothra believes I have made "consistent reversions" -- indeed, any reversions at all -- to the article page, perhaps we could see the diffs that would confirm this. For my part, I believe I have made no edits whatsoever on the article related to this dispute.

Either I'm offended without knowing it (and, or course, editing the page without knowing it), or an apology is in order. BYT 17:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, we all know that those individuals are opposed to the image - however, as I stated above, they are opposed due to their "offensive" nature. That issue was resolved in extensive mediation and thus those arguments are invalid. --Strothra 18:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Another editor suggested we try using the show/hide template as a compromise. I've added it here so people can see what it looks like, though I don't know how it will work with Internet Explorer. I've reverted myself in the meantime. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin 18:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The show/hide template is far closer to compromise than the all or nothing demands that exist so far. I'm not completely opposed to it. I do have reservations, however, due to its censorship-like quality.

The only reason I can see in support of that edit is the fact that this article, unlike the Muhammad article, is not entirely about the individual. However, I oppose it because it is still a form of censorship. --Strothra 18:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The image is highly topical and Misplaced Pages's articles is written according to Wikpedia's own policies and not according to the regulations of Sharia. BrandonYusufToropov can continue attacking people that is opposing him here, but fact is that no valid argument for not including the image has been presented here. -- Karl Meier 20:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, your head count above is inaccurate. 124.29.249.34 and Ghulam Muhammad are one and the same, while you've failed to count Elonka, Euralyus, King Lopez and Matt57, who reverted the blanking just the other day.Proabivouac 19:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

My apologies. I believe I did include Matt (see above). Strothra, did I ever revert this article? Strothra, do people have to have the same motive in order to register opposition to an edit? BYT 20:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac and BYT, would you consider agreeing to the hide/show template, shown here, as a compromise? SlimVirgin 20:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but I want to hear what other editors have to say. BYT 14:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I would support a technical solution, but I don't think that's the right one: one should have to opt in to censorship, not opt out of it every time it arises. It's also easy for readers to miss that there is supposed to be an image there. Ideally, there'd be various filters users could apply to their own preferences, but I'm not certain Wikimedia would support it. Alternately, hide/show would be fine, as long as "show" were the default option: one shouldn't have to go around the article clicking things to make it display correctly.

I also recall from mediation that there was some compelling technical reason why we shouldn't use hide/show, but I can't recall what it was. Perhaps something about the way things appear (or don't appear) when mirrored?Proabivouac 21:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

If show were the default option, there'd be no point in using the template, because readers would see the image before they had time to hide it. The point is make it invisible except to those who seek it out. Not sure about the mirrored site issue. SlimVirgin 21:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

True, but someone must already be looking at the images to blank them. This would enable the offended to do so without affecting the article for anyone else.Proabivouac 21:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

We need some reasons with background in policy if we are to make any changes whatsoever. What are the reasons that we should limit the access to this image? That it doesn't suit the taste or religious ideas of a few editors is of course irrelevant to the discussion. -- Karl Meier 21:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Karl, I understand and respect the no-censorship issue. But the other side of it is that these images are sometimes added solely for the purpose of offending. I'm not saying this was done here, but it does sometimes happen. This is quite a depressing situation for the editors who may feel offended, because it's a double insult. We're saying: Not only are we willing to offend you; we're also going to use your feelings as your Achilles' heel and get another dig in whenever we see a chance. Again, I stress that I'm not saying this has happened here. I'm arguing that even the perception of it is distressing. That distress leads to entrenched positions, which leads to more enmity, which leads to more images being posted.

It would be an important gesture of goodwill to agree to a compromise that would break the cycle. SlimVirgin 21:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"But the other side of it is that these images are sometimes added solely for the purpose of offending."

Indeed. Several examples of this may be seen in mediation, where this image of Baphomet was proposed for inclusion, and more recently on Talk:Muhammad, where a famously disturbing work by Dali was displayed prominently on talk an edit-warred to remain despite widespread protest. Such trolling does not merit our indulgence, and should be reverted on sight.

Now see Talk:Black Stone#Moving the image lower on the page, where it was successfully argued that the image including Muhammad did not belong in the lead. Calls for censorship shouldn't be "bravely defied," but ignored.Proabivouac 22:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The hide/show template is rather interesting. For my part I don't know and I need to think about it. I suspect that it won't satisfy the folks who seek out being offended though. After all they don't have to click on "show", but then again they don't need to click on "Kabba" either. Perhaps we could use it for all manner of content disputes. For instance on articles about political figures we could use the hide/show template to cover up criticism so that the opposite political party members won't be offended. All the sexual reproduction articles could use the template to hide the naughty bits. I'm reserving judgement for now, but I'm skeptical on the basis that it won't satisfy the pro-censors folks, and it sets all kinds of bad precendent. Dman727 21:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

SV, I appreciate your effort for a compromise but goodwill actually is following Misplaced Pages policies. As a user pointed out this is still some form of censorship. Whats next? Having a little "show/hide" for 'PBUH' wherever Muhammad shows up? Please, no. Stick to policies. Thats what this website runs on, and if it didnt, there wouldnt be anything but chaos here. There's no need of a compromise that breaks policies. See my article on my user page why policies would be broken if these images are removed. --Matt57 23:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with Matt57. --Strothra 01:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I do as well--Sefringle 05:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

What's up with the page? It's got a padlock in the top right corner, but no top banner stating that it's protected/locked/whatever, and the reason why. 81.149.182.210 22:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Slimvirgin's creative show/hide option: I agree with Dman727's concerns, but I also have to say that I would be willing to accept it as a possible compromise. I am curious as to what ALM and Ghulam think about it. I'd also like to offer that another compromise might be simply changing the image caption. So instead of "Muhammad lifting the stone into place," it's simply "The Black Stone being lifted into place." --Elonka 07:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

No, this is censorship again. Read my link above. Dont compromise on policies. Misplaced Pages is not censored. --Matt57 14:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think non-censorship should be the default, as it is elsewhere. If we do this here, then where else, and to accommodate who else? I'm not unsympathetic to those who are offended, but religious censorship is so dangerous that for me it is the over-riding concern. We could add a string to the name of each possibly-offensive image to make it easier to configure AdBlock to avoid them, or people could hack their css files and provide them to others. I've mentioned before that people might use AdBlock to avoid seeing images they do not want to see. As I recall, I was shot down immediately for insensitivity, etc. I suspect that letting the individual avoid the image is not the only motive for image removal. Tom Harrison 14:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

My personal feeling is that the proposal Slim has put forward shows a willingness to edit collaboratively that is worth discussing. I think consensus is worth pursuing on content issues. BYT 14:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Is that in reply to me? Tom Harrison 14:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope -- addressed to the page as a whole, back when yours was the most recent comment, located at the bottom of the page. BYT 14:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Tom harrison why cannot you understand a simple thing. That, if the aim is to not seeing pictures then I can stop visiting that page. Problem solved. However, aim is not show it to anyone by default so that my son does not see it and so is other people offended by it. Hence if AdBlock will be blocking it by default and you can see the image ONLY after pressing some button then the problem is solved. However, you are saying that first someone has to see it and get offended. Decide to stay in wikipedia and use AdBlock. In reality, most people decide to leave wikipedia after seeing those stupid pictures and vandalising page few time. Will you tell them all to come back and switch on the AdBlock instead? --- A. L. M. 14:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

ALM, this is not true: In reality, most people decide to leave wikipedia after seeing those stupid pictures. Why dont you read the stuff below and tell me how removing the images does not go against policy? This is an encyclopedia. Its primary job is to inform, not censor or cater to religious sentiments, customs or expectations.--Matt57 14:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Been there, done that. I'm not going to yet again rehearse all the arguments from the mediation and the talk pages. I support keeping the image, with no show/hide template. Tom Harrison 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Then why you are repeating your AdBlock arguments. It has been replied similarly too before. Why to misguide readers with your argument of AdBlock that Tom wish to compromise but it is us... --- A. L. M. 14:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policies

Ok I'm going to reproduce part of my page here again to close this matter. Censoring images in any way is against Misplaced Pages policies. Any questions? Compromises on Misplaced Pages policies is not allowed, needless to say. Please stay firm with people who attempt to violate Misplaced Pages policies. --Matt57 14:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

How Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines may apply to issue of Muhammad's pictures

Misplaced Pages:Profanity

Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available. Including information about offensive material is part of Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not.

Some editors argue that in the light of this guideline:

• Typical Misplaced Pages readers do not find pictures of Muhammad offensive
• Exclusion of such pictures would result in the article being less informative, relevant and accurate.
• No suitable alternatives are available, as these pictures are historic
• As the policy states, "Including information about offensive material is part of Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not.". Therefore, the primary mission of Misplaced Pages and its editors is to improve articles so they are more informative. Being offensive is not Misplaced Pages's mission.
• In addition, there are no issues of copyrights as the copyrights for all these pictures have expired so the images can be used freely where relevant.

WP:NOT#CENSORED

This policy states:

• Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive.
• Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements.

Printing Images of Muhammad: A minority tradition?

Some users (Itaqallah and ALM) have suggested that since printing of Muhammad's images has not been a common affair, therefore Misplaced Pages too should not print the images otherwise it will be a violation of WP:UNDUE. Cartoon images of Muhammad have been printed all over the World and this is not likely to change now:

• List of newspapers that reprinted Jyllands-Posten's Muhammad cartoons

Printing of images is no longer a minority tradition and so UNDUE does not apply. --Matt57 14:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

very Good points. However, we should only use Cartoon in those pages. Because undue weight does not apply on them only. lets use cartoon on each page. --- A. L. M. 14:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The point is that printing of images of Muhammad is not a minority tradition. This was the only policy that you guys could bring up and its a weak policy anyway, in comparison to "NOT CENSORED" and "Misplaced Pages:Profanity". --Matt57 14:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Where can I find defination of WP:weak policy? Once again thanks for cool arguments. Lets start voting to use cartoon on each page. I am for it. --- A. L. M. 14:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Read below, the present cartoons are not relevant to this page. If you can find a notable cartoon of Muhammad and the Kaaba, feel free to upload it. --Matt57 14:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Then how undue weight get generalized for pictures because of those cartoons?? See your own arguments above. Do you think they are logical? Come on! --- A. L. M. 14:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by your first sentence? Please rephrase. --Matt57 15:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you once again for protecting what is obviously a contentious page, Slim

It's clear that there are some conflicting priorities in play here.

Matt, I'm not entirely sure why it was necessary to copy the contents of your userpage onto this talk page, but it seems to me unrelated to the task of formulating consensus on this issue. Why don't you simply share your own thoughts and contribute to the discussion as one editor to another? If we each quote vast chunks of our userpage, this conversation is going to become unwieldy very quickly. BYT 14:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I've pasted the content which relates to the policies. Why dont you respond to my question: How is removing these images not going against Misplaced Pages policies? There's no such thing as "having a consensus to go against Misplaced Pages policies". Please let it go. All this started because anons removing the picture repeatedly, something that no one would do under their real username. Respond to the policies issue now. Again, there's not going to be any consensus or compromise that violates Misplaced Pages policies. --Matt57 14:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I have replied above. That we should only use cartoon per your cool arguments. Hence lets start using cartoons only. --- A. L. M. 14:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure if you want to use one of those cartoons, go ahead but they wouldnt be very relevant to this page, unless someone drew a cartoon of Muhammad near the Kaaba and it received media attention - then we could use that cartoon as well. --Matt57 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• Matt, I need some specifics from you. Exactly what policy am I "violating" by not including, say, this image at Jesus, under the heading "Other views," where the article currently discusses New Age takes on Jesus and Bertrand Russell's view of him?

• You're saying, Matt, that it "violates policy" not to include this contentious, non-consensus image of Muhammad here at Kaaba. Would it "violate" the same "policy" to do the same thing at Jesus? If so, what policy is that?

• As editors (the very word implies a certain intelligence and judiciousness), we can include contentious images if there is consensus to do so. I see no policy that states that we must include contentious images in the absence of that consensus. BYT 14:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are you bringing in Jesus here? --Matt57 15:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Just answer the question, okay? You're very insistent on "policy" here. Would it or would it not "violate" the same "policy" to include this image at Jesus, under the heading "Other views," where the article currently discusses New Age takes on Jesus and Bertrand Russell's view of him?

I have no idea. Maybe its not a free image. Maybe you didnt try to use that image there and see what other people's arguments were. You're assuming the image cant be included, which is a false assumption. In any case, its not relevant to this issue. --Matt57 15:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

You have no idea. That's surprising to me.

It's entirely relevant by the way. You're claiming, repeatedly and with a certainty that stands in stark contrast to your response above, that it's "against policy" to "censor" a contentious image here.

It seems a fair question, Matt. Because we're all concerned about violations of policy, right? Would failing to include this image at Jesus, under the heading "Other views," constitute a violation of policy, or wouldn't it?

I need some clarity on your position. Is failing to insert an equally contentious, non-consensus image, in an analagous setting, equally "against policy" when it connects to a different audience? BYT 15:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I repeat, maybe its because that image is not free and its not relevant to anything there - I dont know. This issue is not relevant to this discussion. If you think that image is relevant and free for the article, go ahead and upload it, ok? Then if people are successful in removing it becuase they find it offensive, let me know. --Matt57 15:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

With respect, Matt, I think it is quite relevant.

There is a fundamental question at stake here: whether our goal is to edit collaboratively, with a willingness to work with and exchange views with other editors, or whether our goal is to hijack articles regardless of the feedback a proposed course of action elicits on the talk page.

For examples of collaborative editing where others stand in rigid (and continual) opposition to certain topics, see Zionism. The article does not look even close to the way it should, in my view. But that does not excuse me from the responsibility of winning consensus for edits I think are appropriate there. The end result is that I have to reach out to people who disagree with me, accept precedent in the article, and find common ground.

You should try it some time. BYT 15:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

You're changing the subject and going long winded. The fundamental issues here are not to violate Misplaced Pages policies. Removing an image that is considered offensive to some editors is the issue here and this (censorship) is against policies. Policies come first. Reaching a consensus comes second. If a consensus means compromising on a policy, that should obviously not be followed through. --Matt57 15:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt, which policies are you referring to? SlimVirgin 15:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

You can read above, the section I pasted from my page. WP:NOT CENSORED and NOT-profanity. Its all there above. --Matt57 15:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

You're obviously quite certain about them, so you won't mind answering a direct question I hope. Assuming the availability of a publc-domain image that looks like this, would someone who opposed the inclusion of that image at Jesus to illustrate the donnybrook over The Da Vinci Code be in "violation" of the same policies? Why wouldn't that be censorship, in your view? BYT 15:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok - why would anyone oppose the inclusion of that image? If they were offended by it, then yes it would be censorship. Whats your point? --Matt57 15:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt, thank you for outlining which policies you're relying on. Let's look at what they say.

WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored is policy, but it doesn't support your argument that not including this image would violate policy. It simply says that "Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements." That says nothing about our ability not to include such material.

Misplaced Pages:Profanity is a guideline, not policy, but it also doesn't support your argument. It says: "Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available. Including information about offensive material is part of Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not."

It also says: "As in all discussions on Misplaced Pages, it is vital that all parties practise civility and assume good faith. Words like "pornography" or "censorship" tend to inflame the discussion and should be avoided (emphasis added)."

So the question is: how would removing that image "cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate." SlimVirgin 15:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The policy NOT CENSORED does support my arguement, ok. It says "Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive.". So if you're trying to move an image because its offensive, thats against policy. And be aware that there are perhaps 4 other articles that are using this image, including Muhammad and there are other images of Muhammad all over this website as well. Remove them all as well if they are not "adding any information".

So the question is: how would removing that image "cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate."

Ok so this is going to be your main argument then. Fine. This picture is a picture of Mohammad putting in the Kaaba stone. This event was an actual event recorded in Islamic history, so its obviously relevant and its accurate, as its a painting. I mean, they didnt have digital cameras 1400 years ago, so we have is paintings for that era. That applies to all painting images in Misplaced Pages. The image is informative as well as its showing an even that really occured. Its as valid relevant, informative and accurate as the Misplaced Pages logo you see up there on the top of this page. --Matt57 15:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

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