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Islam B‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

There is a request, submitted by Menasim( discuss), for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages. The rationale behind the request is: "An important Article about an important person".

	Muhammad was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 7, 2005 Peer review Reviewed January 8, 2006 Good article nominee Listed March 30, 2006 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Template:WP1.0 Template:Troll warning

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1, 2, 3, 4, 5 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 16, 17, 18 Image archive Mediation Archives Request for Clarification/Muslim Guild Statements Clarity discussion/Refining positions Ars' final archive The rest of the mediation by Ars Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8

Muhammad being the "greatest" prophet

Where is the source that Muhammad is considered the greatest of the prophets according to Muslims? He is the most well known in Islam because he is considered the reviver of the faith, but greatest? I don't think Muslims as a whole would be so bold as to ignore all of the other prophets before him or to put them on a scale? Is Esposito the source, where does he say greatest? Muhammad compared to other prophets in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition was not as powerful, he could not separate the sea or cure the blind, so from what source is he considered the greatest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.19.135.178 (talk • contribs)

The sources are referenced in that sentence with the page numbers. I would expect it to be mentioned there since they are references to this specific statement (which indicates this question has arisen before). → AA — 22:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad is considered the greatest prophet in Islam, because he is the "al-insan al-kamil" ("the perfect man"), which is a unique title Muhammad has in islam, and a privilege he possesses, unlike all other Judeo-Christian prophets before him. In reality, Muslims more or less, worship Muhammad, though of course, they would never admit this. But it's pretty clear that they do indeed worship him, seeing how they go berserk every time someone says anything critical of Muhammad. By the way, in Islam, the Judeo-Christian prophets are considered Muslims, not Jews or Christians. Hope that helps. EliasAlucard|Talk 18:48 02 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

This explains the al-insan al-kamil part, and this explains that Islam considers all Judeo-Christian prophets as Muslims. Now, how is that trolling? Look, you may not like criticism. I understand some people have a problem with that, but get used to it. With criticism, comes improvement. EliasAlucard|Talk 01:54 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

I think al-insan al-kamil should be included in the article. What say you? EliasAlucard|Talk 05:21 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Not per those sources. If you can refer to scholarly sources, then there may be a case for inclusion. Cheers. → AA — 09:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Those are scholarly sources. If you checked the first link, Robert Spencer provides links to several Islamic sources. Also, saying that Robert Spencer himself, is not a scholar on Islam, is ridiculous, and most likely a bias motivated by the fact that he is a critic of islam. So really, it's just Ad hominem. He has written several best selling books on Islam, and they're all properly sourced to Islamic scholars and Islamic sources. Also, imam Abu Laban (before he died) was featured on 60 Minutes, and he proclaimed that, and I quote, “Muhammad, is the perfect man”, so what's the problem? Oh and one last thing: could you please stop censoring me? If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry, but look, I didn't exactly write anything outrageous; I didn't use profane language. Maybe you have a problem with accepting criticism, but that's not my problem. I'm allowed to express myself, and you should perhaps, try to listen to what I'm saying. Calling everything you disagree with "trolling" is just a cheap shot. Misplaced Pages is not censored. If you keep this up, I will report it. EliasAlucard|Talk 13:55 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Citing reliable sources does not a reliable source make. Kent Hovind cites Scott Tremaine when he talks about planet formation - yet Tremaine is a reliable source and Hovind isn't. I definitely see no evidence that the "JihadWatch" blog is a reliable source - and it doesn't pass the duck test at all. JSTOR gives me only 33 hits for "al-insan al-kamil" - indicating that it's probably not a very important concept. But I'll see if any discuss it in depth. Cheers, WilyD 14:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, searching through JSTOR this morning, I haven't found much of interest - most references to the concept are off-hand, and many associate with things apart from Muhammad to boot (like Adam, or generic, or whatever). Ibn 'Arabī's Theory of the Perfect Man and Its Place in the History of Islamic Thought by Masataka Takeshita might be a good reference for the issue, I'm not sure - but it's the best I've found. Cheers, WilyD 14:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, WilyD for doing the research (although the duty is on the editor who wants to add the content). EliasAlucard, I removed your comment above in line with policy:

• "talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles; they are not mere general discussion pages about the subject of the article"

However, if you feel they need to stay to show your POV, then it's fine with me. I was not trying to censor it but to ensure the discussions remain civil. → AA — 16:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe in uncompromised free speech, and I am against all forms of censorship, whether it's religious censorship, or, as WilyD called it on my talk page, "productivity censorship" (whatever that's supposed to mean). I wasn't at all off topic, or trolling. Anyway, I'll be looking for better sources, don't worry. EliasAlucard|Talk 20:59 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Elias, you have no right to say that Muslims worship Prophet Muhammad. You can say "It seems," or "I think", because it's offending. Just because Muslims, as you put it, "go beserk" everytime someone criticizes Muhammad (PBUH) doesn't mean that they worship him. I mean, Muslims don't go beserk everytime someone insults God---and that is because people hardly insult God. The Qu'ran says to treat Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) with respect, and that doesn't mean to outward worship him. Everything in the Qu'ran that tells us what we need to believe in, what we need to do is straight-forward. No hinting. Iman S1995 23:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Elias, you have no right to say that Muslims worship Prophet Muhammad — is that a threat? Is my fatwa coming up? Actually, I have all the right in the world to say that. It's called freedom of speech. I'm not a muslim and I'm not obliged to follow the Qu'ran. Please knock this off. You're not helping anyone, least of all, this article. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:17 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

al-insan al-kamil

All right, I think we got a case now. Feel free to improve it. EliasAlucard|Talk 04:05 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

I very much dislike these accusations of trolling and believe threats such as "If you persist on trolling Talk:Muhammad, you will find yourself unable to do so." are inappropriate and counterproductive. It would be better to discuss concerns instead of issuing threats in this situation because I think the original statement was intended to express a relevant point (whether right or wrong) as viewed by EliasAlucard, but not intended only to offend. Failing to make an effort not to offend isn't the same as attempting to offend and thus isn't trolling. The essence of what he was trying to say does have some veracity, although I would prefer to say Muhammad is highly venerated and nearly idolized in that criticism of him generally meets severe rebuke from Muslims. Ultimately however, Muslims pray to God, not Muhammad. So he might be considered perfect in religious, political, social, etc. matters, but still not quite worshiped. Talmage 06:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. In my honest opinion, though muslims regard it as shirk and deny that they worship Muhammad, I consider it worship, seeing how they defend him with violence. Is this offending muslims? Well then, so be it. But I still think Muslims should take what I'm saying, into consideration. EliasAlucard|Talk 13:22 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

See point two of WP:TALK#How to use article talk pages, also WP:SOAP. The opinion you've offered is interesting, but has nothing to do with improving the article.Proabivouac 02:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Al-insan al-kamil, merge for discussion

Merge discussions for . → AA — 08:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• Support merge - it is a notable aspect of how the Prophet is thought of and should be dealt with in the main article, doesn't need its own article. Itsmejudith 09:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep, no merge. The term al-insan al-kamil is notable enough to warrant its own article. This Muhammad article is generally about his life from the beginning to the end, and shouldn't focus too much on how Muhammad is revered in Muslim tradition. The Muhammad article is already huge, we don't need to overload it with more content. Just pointing out in the intro that he is called al-insan al-kamil, with a link to the article, is enough. We can expand this topic a lot more in its own article. EliasAlucard|Talk 13:22 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
• Support merge, i think it can be covered in a few sentences in this article, there doesn't seem to be much else to the concept anyway. needs some reliable sources. ITAQALLAH 12:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I can see what you're trying to do here. You're removing the sources from the main article and trying to make this into an obscure topic and undermining support for its existence as an article, in order to support your argument. You are simply trying to give this article less attention, presumably, by merging it into this one. Also, one of the reasons this article shouldn't be merged, is because it's not exclusively about Muhammad. This title (the perfect man) is also given to Adam, and other islamic saints. It's a notable article in its own right, and I know, for a fact, that there's a lot more to it than the few sources I've added right now. I haven't had enough time to expand on the article on my own. However, the sources I've provided, are all to islamic sources, and reliable. Period. EliasAlucard|Talk 14:43 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
    • please cease the incivility and bad faith attacks. the sources you added to the article aren't reliable, nor have you attempted to explain why they are so. back to the discussion: as said above, there's no need for content forking. ITAQALLAH 12:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
      • If Adam is also regarded as al-insan al-kamil in the Qur'an, then there's no reason the al-insan al-kamil article should be merged into this one, is there? Because the article is not exclusively about Muhammad. Also, there's nothing wrong with the sources. You just don't like them because you're biased. EliasAlucard|Talk 14:55 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
        • Quit the personal attacks, will you?Proabivouac 19:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with EliasAlucard. Al-insan al-kamil is a concept and it's not equal with the prophet. In practice prophet is matched with it perfectly. Itaqallah has claimed there doesn't seem to be much else to the concept anyway while there is sufficient information to have a separate article. There are several authors who wrote the books in Persian which discussed about this issue like Morteza Motahhari, Aziz Al-din Nasafi, Yahya Kamali. However we can have a section in this article to satisfy Itsmejudith too.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 02:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support merge per above--Sefringle 05:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge - barely anything there anyhow.Proabivouac 19:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment That's because, thanks to Itaqallah's revert warring, the article is protected, and no one is allowed to work on it. More content is available though, if you just look for it. Lots of muslims have written books on the al-insan al-kamil concept. This article, could be huge in its own right, if we started working on it. EliasAlucard|Talk 15:53 07 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
    • Discuss the changes you intend to add in the talk page. If there is consensus, it can be included via the use of the {{editprotected}} template. → AA — 21:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support merge per Itsmejudith and Itaqallah. BYT 20:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose merging as this would be a very narrow focus of Muhammad in Muslim tradition. I have included this point among others in this edit of mine . I think details (if there are any) should be mentioned in the al-insan al-kamil article. --Aminz 04:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support per above. The "oppose" votes are indicative of something interesting. Arrow740 06:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Would you like to share that interesting point for us? --Aminz 06:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - the current article is, indeed, shit. That doesn't mean the answer is a merge - it looks like the concept might be worth writing about, and writing about well, with real sources. If it is just a concept in Sufiism (or even more restrictive) then it's not necessarily worth mentioning here (and definitely not in the opening!) but may be worth exploring somewhere else. I've linked a couple sources on the talk page there, for a start - anybody else interested in trying to make an actual article on the subject? WilyD 13:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply – I can't believe a merge is being discussed. This insan kamil concept, is a concept of mainly, sufi islam, but not limited to sufi islam. It shouldn't be in the article of Muhammad, because that's not what the Muhammad article should focus on. EliasAlucard|Talk 16:11 14 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
    • from the sources available, it would seem that `al-insan al-kamil` is a concept in Sufism. there is currently no evidence to suggest it extends beyond that. this article should naturally cover the topic, as it relates to how he is perceived in Sufi thought. some users above are claiming there is more coverage of the concept, which i'll try to investigate. ITAQALLAH 14:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
      • It may not be a concept of mainstream islam, but definitely, not only Sufis use this. Abu Laban (a Sunni muslim) called Muhammad the perfect man on 60 minutes. I don't see any reason to merge it into the article of Muhammad, because this article is supposed to be sort of biographical, not delve into theological concepts on Muhammad. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:06 14 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

This article doesn't have to be just a biography. It should cover all the notable aspects of the topic Muhammad. If "60 minutes" is a TV programme then I think I am right in saying it doesn't count as a source unless a transcript has been made available. Itsmejudith 16:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad as a historical figure

All historical information in this wiki is presented like it's a fact. But this is not the Koran, this is wikipedia. There is no historical evidence that Muhammad ever existed. The mentioned sources all base their information on the Koran. And if Muhammad ever lived, there is some doubt that he lived in Saoudi Arabia (Syria is mentioned as a more likely place). The first scientific historical information about the new religion Islam comes from two centuries after Muhammad died.

In the wiki about Jesus, some doubts about the historical Jesus are mentioned. But the wiki about Muhammed does some copy / paste work form the Koran. Maybe this information should be an a different page, but it should be mentioned. I also think there is far too much information in this wiki.

• Do you know of any reliable sources that doubt that there was a historical guy named Muhammad? WilyD 21:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Why did you delete my comment? Political correctness? I think more needs to be said about how nonmuslims see Muhammad. They do not consider him the perfect man, to say the least.

• I explained why your comment was removed on your userpage. If you have productive comments to add, feel free, but vague insults are unhelpful. This is not a forum, but a discussion page for how to write an encyclopaedic article about Muhammad. Off-topic posts can be removed (and are aggressively here, for obvious reasons). Cheers, WilyD 19:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

How about this:

Amongst some non-Muslims and particularly westerners, Muhammad is seen as a controversial figure. Accounts of his actions and Islam, the religion he founded are considered to be excessively violent and immoral. In his 50s, he married Aisha, the daughter of his friend Abu Bakr, while she was only 6 years old. According to some, this justifies labeling him a pedophile. In recent years, many view his contributions and the religion that he passed on to his followers as inspiring of terrorism and colonialism. Sources:http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27975 , http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm ,

There are plenty of sources for this much information. If that muslims think he's perfect is mentioned, what the rest of the world thinks of him should be mentioned as well.

A lot of this kind of material is already in this article, as well as the much more detailed Christian view of Muhammad, for instance. In general, there's a strong need to avoid recentism here - especially with unimportant stuff like "historic moral judgements of". Since the kind of stuff you're talking about already has a section, why not begin by saying what you dislike about how it's covered? Cheers, WilyD 22:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, make sure to have stronger sources. Only a very few of the sources are not print sources and most are from well established press (and those are only about depictions of Muhammad and they are from major news organizations). gren グレン 07:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Kotham and Halabi

Can someone address in the article the birth names of Muhammad (PBUH) which are circulating the internet please? Thank you 82.6.114.172 16:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

conflict

In the middle years section, it says that both his sons died before the Prophet declared his mission, while the family life section says otherwise. Could someone solve this ?! Thank you. Unflavoured 12:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Destroying references

References 55 and 44 have disappeared because they apparently reference references which have since been removed. I did a brief search but couldn't find what they originally linked to. Can anyone find the references and we should be careful about this in the future. gren グレン 07:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Wrapping up the issue of Muhammad's images

Recently, we had another unnecessary uproar over a Muhammad image at the Kaaba article. Its time to form a clear policy page that we can just link too in future and warn the user for a block if they continue to remove a Muhammad image. I've made this page on the Wikiproject Islam's page: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Islam/Images of Muhammad. --Matt57 03:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

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