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Military history: North America / United States Start‑class

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Georgia (U.S. state) A‑class

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SOA Watch

This information is not really about the SOA but rather about its defamers, the so-called "SOA Watch". While one might be remiss to neglect mentioning such connections to the more notorious of its graduates it does little good to focus only upon negative, unproven allegations. Users of Misplaced Pages would be better served by an entry that actually deals with the SOA, not its detractors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.170.51 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 29 April 2004 (UTC)

This strikes me as a very interesting statement: "This information is not really about the SOA but rather about its defamers, the so-called "SOA Watch"." Hmmm. Certainly the posted article is "about" the School of the Americas/Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation! And yes, from it, Wiki readers also learn that the School has its "defamers" -- better, critics. From there, readers can easily go to the SOA/WHISC website for their version (understandably self-interested) of reality. Hopefully discerning Wiki-folk will then wonder and be willing to research whether criticisms of the School are indeed "negative, unproven allegations." There are numerous UN Truth Commission and other authoritative reports which can help them make that assessment.

Obviously, it is not rational to assume that anyone with a favorable view towards SOA/WHISC is necessarily more objective than those who criticize it. The reader needs to be willing to scrutinize and interpret the evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.171.35 (talk • contribs) 5 September 2004

I am not totally sure how to use this, but I think I found something that is factually inaccurate in this article, namely that Osama Bin Laden graduated from the school. I looked online and there's no mention of him graduating from the SOA. - Garrett

He most certainly did not, I'm sure that was vandalism. - Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It is VERY important to highlight the fact that WHINSEC is NOT the School of the Americas. The SOA was an Army ran tactial school, WHINSEC is a Depatrment of Defense (not army) sponsored institute which brings instructors, military and civilian, to enhance not only Latin American training but US as well.

campaign finance reform

Why is the article linked to campaign finance reform, hard money, and soft money? -Penta 15:10, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree. This might as well be an article on the SOA Watch site and other anti-SOA activist groups. 64.7.89.54 08:12, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've noticed that often with an issue like this, it can be difficult to find someone willing explicitly defend the topic/organization. Having said that, I'll try and organize the material a bit - seems to be the best first step to fixing things up. Krupo 02:55, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

First step was to seperate the criticisms from the history of the institution. More information on SOA/WHISC would probably help now. Alas, I don't know that much about it to do it justice. Some of the wording is probably less inflammatory/partisan now. Krupo 03:00, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

Dispute?

Is there still a serious dispute over this article? If not, I'll remove the tag. Shorne 03:07, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I suggest creating a seperate page for SOA Watch and make a link to it. --Mixcoatl 17:55, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me the article pretty openly violates the NPOV policy, perhaps it should be flagged as a neutrality questionable article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.104.16.114 (talk • contribs)

i agree, there is basically nothing in this article beyond left wing propaganda. Nayt1 09:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)nayt1

I think the article should remain tagged as disputed; I agree the SOA Watch should be mentioned, but equivalent mention should be given either to WHINSEC's responses to the allegations, and/or given to the praise that WHINSEC has drawn from objective parties (yes, such praise does exist). SOA Watch should indeed have their own article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 214.13.190.178 (talk • contribs) 8 August 2006.

minor changes

On "Controversy" I deleted the statement " but prospects for its passage are nil." in re of HR 1217. That statement is complete speculation.

Also made and external link to the library of congress to follow the House Resolution. On "Criticisms" changed from "The date for the annual demonstration commemorates the first Latin American massacre linked to the SOA" to "The date for the annual demonstration commemorates a Latin American massacre linked to the SOA". The killing of the Jesuits was not the first Latino American massacre linked to the SOA.

I will try to add some more information at a latter time. Elpucho 11:13, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

POV

This page is currently SERIOUSLY BIASED towards the school. There is almost no mention of the countless massacres and killings that the school's graduates have committed. There is no mention of the anti-union activity that the students are trained in. And, most of all, there is no mention of teh annual march against the school in which thousands participate every year, and in which dozens commit acts of civil disobedience in protest of the school. I have tagged this articl for disputed neutrality, and it would be great if someone researched the topic a little bit more and changed the article so it represented the reality of the school instead of the official government opinion. If no one else changes it, I'll have to. And soon.TrogdorPolitiks 20:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I fixed some stuff. Still needs a rewrite, not incredibly clear WHY there is so much dispute over the institution, but the facts are there.TrogdorPolitiks 20:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's remain objective. While I agree the article is flawed, what I see above my post here is as slanted as the article it's complaining about. If the facts are there, as you say, cite some references. I challenge you to present them without rhetorical devices like ALL CAPS; without inflammatory exaggerations like "countless massacres"; and without non-sequiturs: the fact that there are annual marches, in which people commit civil disobedience, does not demonstrate wrongdoing on the part of WHISC; it demonstrates that there are annual marches, in which people commit civil disobedience. The fact that numerous murders and some massacres (while clearly horrific and tragic) have occurred, does not prove that WHISC ordered them, nor that the WHISC trained the killers to commit them, any more than the fact that Ted Kaczynski's attendance at Harvard (or the attendance of any number of future white-collar criminals, lawyers, and CEOs) casts ill repute on that institution. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ancientgeekphilosopher (talk • contribs) 9 August 2006.

I would say it is POV in this manner: Most people who know about the School of the Americas/Western Hemispher INstitute for SEcurity Cooperation know about it because of the attrocities committed by graduates and the high number of future dictators it graduated and not what the institution says of itself. There is no reason to give the institution's POV of itself at 50% of all content. This type of thinking gives government a de facto veto on all such content. And that's just speaking of a US centric POV. Move beyond the US and the SOA/WHINSEC's POV of itself would be a much, much smaller minority. Unless of course US POV are the only views that matter. I don't think that is what wikipedia is about. LobotRobot 21 December 2006

Changes

I've added a new section about the changes between the SOA and the WHISC. My hope is that this will help make the article more neutral and more in line with Wiki standards. Kamikaze Highlander 05:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I moved the line about the Anti-Flag song to a new section labeled Trivia, as it was majorly out of place in the History section. Nayt1 23:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)nayt1

I agree that it was out of place in the history section, but I firmly believe that we should not have a "trivia" section in the article. A trivia section in the article makes the article seem much more juvenile, and will not promote this article or wikipedia as a whole as a quality information source. The information currently in the article either needs to be removed or incorporated into the rest of the article. Heavy Metal Cellist_contribs

Responses to criticisms

I think this article could still me a bit more NPOV, in that I think that as it stands the article is biased against the school. There are mentions of the massacres and criticisms, but no mention of the responses to the critics or the stated purpose of the school. A previous post states that readers can go to the schools website and get the school's point of view. However, it is my understanding that Misplaced Pages's purpose is to collect information in one location so that, like any other encyclopedia, the information will be collected in one location.

In addition, I do beleive that the discussion of the protests against the school is worded and structured in such a way that implies that the protesters are heroic and persecuted. This may or may not be true. However, the the dispassionate objective facts should be presented so that the reader can make up his or her own decision. Perhaps a page for "Protest Against the School of the Americas" should be created

--Ericsean 14:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)ericsean

It now seems to me to lean a bit the other way. You get 5 paragraphs in before you detect a whiff of controversy, and 8 paragraphs in before there is any indication what is controversial about the institution. Given that there is no question that quite a few graduates of the school have been major perpetrators of human rights abuses — the controversy is only over the degree to which the school may have encouraged this — that smacks of a whitewash.

By way of contrast, think of all of the articles where the lead indicates what governments consider the group that is the subject of the article to be terrorists, etc. There should be something about the controversy in the lead. - Jmabel | Talk 05:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree: there needs to be mention of the controversy in the introduction. Possibly a sentence paragraph below the introduction to summarize that there was controversy with the SOA and to summarize the "allegations". Something to show that the article isn't written to white-wash over the subject. Kamikaze Highlander 07:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

At least as of this moment, I think the third paragraph does this adequately. - Jmabel | Talk 00:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Ericsean has said that there is "no mention of the responses to the critics or the stated purpose of the school", and that he believes that the article is biased because of that. I have spent some time researching the issue, and I have found virtually no response to the SOA's critics other than the critics are exaggerating it. As somebody else has said on this talk page, there is no controversy over whether the human rights violations were committed by members of the school, just over exactly how much the school had to do with them. The article should reflect this in some way. Heavy Metal Cellist_contribs

Moved block of information from Changes to History

I moved a big block of information from the Changes section, which deals with changes after the SOA was repealed and replaced, to the history section, since it is historical information. I do feel that it should be rewritten, however, as it is a really big paragraph. Kamikaze Highlander 03:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Cut, pending citation

"Please refer to Maria Gaurdado's testimony of how she was tortured in El Salvador by an Anglo Saxon given orders, and how these people were linked to the School of the Americas and the CIA." Please refer to something where no link is provided? Please, if you want this in the article, cite for it. - Jmabel | Talk 01:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

SOA Current Function

Hello,

I noticed a lack of info on SOA's current role in the Western Hemisphere. On the SOA's web page, a third of the budget is reserved for narcotics control but I do not see any mention of this as a benefit of the school.

Also, would the school benefit America should a (radical Islamist) regime target a Central American country?

Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Littlehouse (talk • contribs) 24 November 2006.

Sounds to me like you are asking us to speculate on things being beneficial. If you have citable sources saying these things are beneficial then, of course, those can go in the article.

Insofar as I am being asked to speculate, though: a military approach to narcotics control doesn't sound very beneficial to me. It's things like this that bring us Plan Colombia. - Jmabel | Talk 02:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Edits by User:ChaplainKent on 12-21-06

I reverted all the parts of the edits that were false or had huge POV issues. I kept all informative and non-biased content. I hope its up to everyone's standards. Eclectek  06:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm moving the discussion that started on ChaplainKent's Talk page to this talk page so its out in the open. Eclectek  16:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey there! I saw that you made a very sweeping edit to the WHINSEC article. It looks like you put a lot of effort into it. Some parts, however, are not neutral in their point of view. You made it clear that you are affiliated with the WHINSEC. You removed a substantial amount of information about "torture manuals" that is in fact verifiable by Amnesty International as well as other independant organizations. I'm going to put that part back right now and will continue to help improve the article. Eclectek  05:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

"Some parts are not neutral" And you think the way this article is written is neutral in its language? I removed the torture manuel material because is just isn't true. You removed the explaination I gave concering the research I made on how that all came about. Why? That information is true and accurate. Over 10 congressional inquiries into the school found no such evidence. Just because Amenisty International has a copy of a manuel doesn't mean that it was ever used for instruction or approved as appropriate by the school. The article states as fact something which is just plain false. You also removed a correction I made on the huamn rights training. The article again states and "only a few" are giving the instruction. In fact its mandatory for all students. And the eight hours is the minimum. So if your there for a three week course out of fifteen days of instrucion you get one of human rights. Longer courses have much longer sections of training. Just why was that removed. Here's the link to document the proof of my statement.

You imply that I'm not objective because of my association with the school. Well that association is not paid and I'm not staff. I'm a social justice advocate from the religious community who was invited to look closely with a critical eye at the school, what it teachers, and what it does. That invitation to become an advisor to the Board Of Visitors came originally in 2002 when I heard all the accusations made against the school and went directly to them myself seeking information to either verify or disprove. They were overjoyed that somebody actually wanted to investigate and seek the truth in the matter rather than just parrot SOA Watch and their very biased rhetoric. As I continue to investigate the school and talk with those trying to close it down here is the conclusion I came to. And this is words coming from the detractors own mouths. "Well, even if all the things your saying are true we still want the school closed because we don't like our governements foreign policy towards the region." There are also a number of those who use the "torture manuel" false accusation to drum up emotions and support all the while knowing that it implies something which simply isn't true. They don't really care that torture was never taught at the school nor that the actual instuction manuels had nothing at all about it in them. Simply disagreeing with foreign policy would get a big yawn from most people and they certainly wouldn't take the time to write legislators or join protest marches. December 23rd 2006

Reverend / Chaplain Kent Svendsen United States Army Reserve —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ChaplainKent (talk • contribs) 00:48 24 December 2006.

Hello Kent - I'm sorry you aren't happy with my edits and reverts. I'm sure we can work through it and come to some mutual agreement. On Misplaced Pages, all major viewpoints that have been published in a reputable source are valid and shouldn't be reverted because any user disagrees with them. I want to make sure that's not happening here. We're working on making the article more WP:NPOV because no article is perfect, this one included. Lets address the revets and changes I made one by one.

• The school is frequently accused -> the school is frequently cited: this creates a more NPOV statement.
• "While the SOA was still active over ten congressional investigations took place without any evidence of wrongdoing be uncovered": I've never heard of these investigations. If you can provide citations for this, please re-insert it into the article.
• You claimed in your response that I reverted the fact that human rights training was now mandatory. I did not. As the article stands now, it says that 8 hours are required. It states that in the past, only a few took the classes as they were not required. I reverted the statement that the "quite often the mantadory 8 hours is exceeded" in human rights training. There's no evidence to support this.
• You said "According to a member of the Board of Visitors..." That refers to you and is original research. Original research is not allowed on wikipedia. Find an article to cite.
• I summarized your discussion of the invitation to visit the school to "At the SOAW vigil in November 2006, invitations were given to the public to visit the school." I'd like to see this expanded to something that explains the process of visiting, what visitors see, who they speak with, etc.
• You had speculated that students not electing to take human rights classes in the SOA may be reason that training is mandatory in WHINSEC. Misplaced Pages is not open to this kind of speculation, so I removed it.
• You completely removed the section on the training manuals that advocated inhumane treatment. These documents are proven to have existed by amnesty international and the washington post. That paragraph was even cited correctly. That kind of reverting cannot be tolerated.
• I changed your sentance from "Each year a number of protestors are arrested for purposely violating the law and forcing their arrest in an attempt to create more anger against the school." to "Each year a number of protestors are arrested and prosecuted for acts of civil disobediance including trespassing onto federal property in an apptempt to create more awareness for the SOAW." This sentance attempts to eliminate bias.
• You wrote "It is now also reported that some college professors give students credit for attending the protest." Provide citations or this cannot stay.

With that said, the current activities of WHINSEC are not accurately depicted in this article. They needed to be added in in a neutral manner and in a way that does not undermind the activist/justice side of the argument. I'd love to see more of the folloing added and cited from reputable places:

• new curriculum of the WHINSEC, courses required
• touring program

Please ask any specific questions about my reverts. I'd be glad to explain and work something out. Eclectek  18:02, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh?

Why on earth suppress the date on which WHISC replaced SOA? Or is something else going on here? Since the only comment here is that I was reverted via pop-ups (a very inappropriate way to handle my edit, I might add, given that it was obviously not vandalism), there is effectively no edit summary, so I cannot guess the editor's intent. - Jmabel | Talk 20:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for not giving an edit summary - not a nice/smart thing to do. My fault. On my revert, I didn't "suppress" the date on which SOA became WHINSEC. In fact, its mentioned elsewhere in the article (see "After the legal authorization for the former School of the Americas was repealed in 2001 and the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation was established"). That aside, your edits are only rhetoric, not fact. SOA did in fact close and WHINSEC is not SOA (on paper, at least). I say this as somebody involved with SOAW. The article should reflect the fact that the SOA closed, not that WHINSEC is a continuation of it. Saying that it is a continuation is your analysis. Eclectek  22:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

If SOA is not WHISC

If SOA is 'not WHISC', then why does the former redirect to the latter? User:Pedant 18:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Please look into this!

I think the recent edit by User:71.244.230.254 should be reverted (see here). I'm not going to do it myself because I've reverted the same edit about a week ago. The statement is self-referential and is original research. In fact, its a first-hand statement. I believe it was added by User:ChaplainKent, a member of the WHINSEC visitors board. He just didn't log in. Somebody please look into this issue. He added the same statement before and I reverted it. Help. Please. Eclectek  04:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes

I made a few edits that were quite needed. This is the second revert I've made to this material. I know its not good to do, but I asked for assistance at the Village Pump and got no help for over a week. One change I made was changing "according to a member of the board of visitors" to "according to the institution itself." This makes the connection between the board of visitors and the institution more clear and the reference links reflect the institution, not the opinion of a BOV member. The second edit I made was to remove the statement that often the number of hours students take in human rights exceeds the requirement. There are no sources in accord with this statement. Tell me if you disagree please. Eclectek  16:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

another notable student

http://en.wikipedia.org/Luis_Posada_Carriles I think he might be notable, I'll try to add him soon if possible 70.100.138.217 14:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Notable indeed! Eclectek  16:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Added, with citation. - Jmabel | Talk 19:09, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

"Graduates"

I saw some IP user recently add on General Augusto Pinochet and Cuban dictator Fugencio Batista as "graduates of the School of the Americas". I removed Pinochet as I know for a fact that he was never graduate of the SOA (and I provided a source from derechos.org) and I removed Batista as I believe he was never a graduate of the SOA (no mention of it on the Batista article). I think that this serves as a bit of warning for people who edit this article. Please do not just add names of Latin American dictators and presume that "they must have been SOA graduates".--Jersey Devil 10:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, Pinochet did spent some time in the school of americas, in fact i read in an article that there was even an special mention of it in the own school of americas. Perhaps he did not "graduated" per se, i wouldnt really know about that... (nor did i added that piece of info to the article) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.215.168.240 (talk) 05:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Totally disputed

I had carefully gone through the article and corrected numerous factual errors and unsourced POV claims. Everything carefully explained in edits summaries. This was reverted without explanation. Please explain, otherwise the sourced and checked version will be restored.Ultramarine 08:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Not in source

"The earlier School of the Americas had a controversial history of teaching the techniques of torture since the end of the Second World War, with many of its graduates claimed to be linked to the worst human rights crimes perpetrated in the western hemisphere, which were trained at U.S. taxpayer expense" The given source does not state the claims marked.Ultramarine 20:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Please read again. The source does state these facts. I quote: "UN commissions and research organizations have linked SOA graduates to many of the region's most heinous massacres, assassinations and torturous interrogations over the years...."Giovanni33 20:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

That is not what you stated. Furthermore, the infamous torture manuals were only used during 4 years.Ultramarine 20:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, the article does not have soures for its claims.Ultramarine 20:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I did say that. HOw is stating "the worst human rights violations" different than the souce's statments, "the most heinous massacres, assasinations and torurous..."? If anything, I toned down the rhetoric.Giovanni33 20:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

"Many of the most" is not the same of "the worst". You ignore that the torture manuals were only used for 4 years. Futhermore, it is not the same school anymore, it has a very different organization and name.Ultramarine 20:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Since you feel its a difference, I changed the language to "many of the most." I don't ingnore the other things, we are talking about its status as a controversial entity based on its record of the recent past. The claim of a very different organization, instead of simply a superficial name change and face lift, is a matter of contention, but not a point I've delt with in my edits.Giovanni33 21:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Again you ignore that the torture manuals were only used for 4 years and your source does not mention teaching torture since WWII. That the current organiztion has many differences is sourced later, while your claim that they are essentially the same is not.Ultramarine 21:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't even mention the manuals. Why bring up that point? The manuals are talked about later in the article. Since WW2 is supported by the source. It says: "Since its founding in 1946, the SOA--now located at Fort Benning in Georgia and renamed the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation--has trained more than 60,000 Latin American soldiers in commando and psychological warfare, counterinsurgency techniques..."Giovanni33 22:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Again the article gives no sources. From what I can see in sources, this is very dubious, many were there only a for a few months, taking a course in tank warfare or logistics or something like that, and not in the claimed above subjects. Regardless, there is no mention of torture in your quote.Ultramarine 22:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The source is the article itself. That is what I'm quoting and relying on. The Nation is a reputable publication that we can use to support claims. The claims are clear, and I can find other sources that makes the same claims. Its pretty well established. That is why, as the article mentions, Latin American countries are breaking ties with the school, and there has been a strong movement to abolish the school. The pentagon changing its name, also is noteworthy for its shameful role in supporting state terrorism, i.e. kidnapping families, etc.Giovanni33 22:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Obviously a scholarly source or an article that cited sources would be better. Again, the article does no state that they have teached torture since WWII. Nor does it state that these schools are identical, while I have presented sources stating that they are very different, obligatory human rights courses, also teaching civilians, DoD instead of US Army, external review, etc.Ultramarine 22:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

That may or may not be true, but its not relevant since the passage only claims that is has a controversial history, due to....--that is hardly in question by anyone. In fact, its still controversial now, and it may be closed very soon as a result--even if the changes you stay took place, did happen. It doesnt change its controversial history, as a combat training school hated throughout the world.Giovanni33 22:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

While Misplaced Pages avoids claiming "truth", these changes have verifiable sources. The correct description is "The earlier school of the Americas..." If you want to argue that these schools are identical, that is a separate issue. Again, the article does no state that they have teached torture since WWII.Ultramarine 22:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I removed the part "since WWII," to address your objection. However, let me point out that since we are talking about its PAST actions, saying the "earlier" school is redunant, since by definition its history is earlier. But, the other problem is that its history affects it current status that remains controversial due to that very history, name change or not. If this is in doubt, just take a look at some of the sources latest news, protests, and moves to have the school shut down. So, the changes that occured now, has nothing to do with my edits or its claim: it remains cotroversial given its history of abuse. To stress that is has all changed now, is false, since once thing has not changed (which is the point being made): it continued existence remains the center of a storm of controversy due its its ugly historical record. That is true TODAY. Unless this fact is disputed, talking about other things is off the point.Giovanni33 01:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Restored balancing material deleted by one user

I take a short break and I find the article white washed, with the crtical POV's removed. So, I've restored material that has been removed (by one editor, with no consensus in talk), which in effect white-washes this article. This restored material now restores the proper balance. The difference can be seen here:.Giovanni33 03:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Give sources for the claims, as per WP:V.Ultramarine 09:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Restored material is full of sources supporting claims, but I've added more. Blanking sourced material can be considered vandalism.Giovanni33 22:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Question: is the entire "Demonstrations" section sourced to Gareau?

As for the "Notable graduates" section, www.soaw.org does not look at all to be a reliable source. Blanking this material is therefore appropriate, especially in light of possible BLP concerns.Proabivouac 00:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the "Notable graduates" section, it contained names not mentioned even by SOA Watch, like Efraín Ríos Montt. But there is duplicate list under "Human rights abuses" that at least only have names mentioned by SOA Watch. But there is no evidence for these claims. The demonstration section was unsourced, Giovanni33 added some new material with Gareau as a source in his last edits before self-reverting. Unclear if this covers the old material. If so page number would be required.Ultramarine 00:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ultramarine, you claim that the list of notable graduates was not accurate. You cite one name to make your case. Now, even if you are correct that this name was not accurate, it follows that you should correct it by removing the name, not blanking the whole section, listing all of the other names, no? As I responded to your claim that I checked the names and they were accurate. Here are otehr sources (in addition to WP own article on the man) that support its accuracy: McSherry, J. Patrice 1949-The School of the Americas: Military Training and Political Violence in the Americas (review)Latin American Politics & Society - Volume 48, Number 1, Spring 2006, pp. 189-192;University of Miami, I quote, "General Rios Montt's evangelical zeal is linked to the military 'education' he received - like many of his peers in Latin America - from the School of the Americas, run by the US military in Panama.",One of the most vicious tyrants in recent Guatemalan history is Jose Efrain Rios Montt. General, dictator, and a former president from 1982-83, Rios Montt was proud of his political philosophy of "beans for the obedient; bullets for the rest". He was also a graduate of the SOA."Guatemalan dictator General Jose Efrain Rios Montt announced that he plans to run for Congress in September, which would provide him with immunity from prosecution on the charges of violating human rights during the country's 36-year civil war. The former dictator, who attended the SOA in the 1950?s for a Special courses, has been charged with genocide, torture, terrorism and illegal detention by the Spanish national court.Not only Rios Montt, but also most of the top echelon of generals in the Guatemalan military under Rios Montt were trained at the U.S. School of the Americas, then concentrated in Panama.As I said, I checked and its accurate.

You have still failed to explain why you blanked notable, topical, and sourced material for all the other sections. The very notable and specific charges of allegations of State Terrorism, are sources, and the specific charges, well referenced, are all blanked--replaced by the short one sentence, 'human right controveries."What disturbs me is that all your blanking has the effect of POV pushing, by whitewashing this article and thus removing the balancing, critical material. This violates NPOV.Giovanni33 02:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the Demonstrations section was already sourced to "the Real News Network," Garuau is only sourced to my additions to that section, with page numbers included. I restored the larger section because it looked like it was sourced and--along with all the other sourced material--was being blanked without any discussion or consensus. I now see that source no longer points to the news article about the protests. However, that major demonstration of 19,000 is well known, and here are several more sources that support it. See: (See page 10).

Thanks your comments about the notable graduates section. So the reason why it's blanked then is NOT (as UltraMarine alleges) because it didn't have a source, but because there is a quetion about the reliablity of that source, and BLP concerns. This is diferent, and was never mentioned. However, I disagree that the source is not reliable. School of the Americas Watch is a notable and reliable organization whose reports are factual. But, if it would be more acceptable, I can find other sources to add in addition to this one. As far s BLP concerns, I don't see the problem, since all its doing is listing notable graduates of the school, linking to WP's article on each of these individuals. How is stating a well documented fact that they graduated from the SOA's problematic under BLP?

Also, if these two sections were the only problems, why was everything else being blanked, despite the fact that the rest was well sourced? I take it, that you agree that doing so is not appropriate, esp. without any consensus or discussion about removing all this sourced material? Thanks again for your impute here.Giovanni33 01:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I haven't gotten to the rest of it, but started with the most obvious problems. You are certainly correct that well-sourced, topical and neutrally-presented material should not be blanked.

SOAW is a partisan advocacy group, not a mainstream or scholarly source. BLP is applicable due to the controversy surrounding the school. Where this is indeed well-documented, there should be no problem including this information, so I think your idea of finding other (hopefully less partisan) sources should solve the problem.

In the "Controversies" section, Frederick Gareau seems to me a perfectly acceptable scholarly source. The introduction of a house bill is also sourced . This information should not have been removed.

"As a cosmetic gesture…" sounds correct to me, although probably unnecessary. Merely stating that the name was changed is enough, as we're not saying anything else has changed along with it. The fact that the name was changed is visible in the cited bill, and isn't in dispute; I cannot see why this should have been removed.

The part about the "mysterious disappearance" and discovery of torture manuals should definitely be sourced. The first contains a vague allegation of wrongdoing, while the latter is a specific and very serious charge. I don't doubt it, but my lack of doubt isn't enough. However, further down is this from Amnesty International, which might contain some of this information, and is certainly a usable source, with attribution.

If we proceed stepwise in evaluating the disputed material, and restoring it where appropriate, there shouldn't be any problems. Some of the problem may just be the lack of careful citation where the sources are presented elsewhere in the article (e.g. the Amnesty Report.)Proabivouac 01:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Here may be found some sources we might wish to comb through for news coverage. While SOAW itself cannot be considered reliable, many of the sources to which they link are acceptable.Proabivouac 02:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your considered feedback. I will follow your advice, and hope this will end the problem here with the inappropriate blanking.Giovanni33 02:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The demonstrations section was unsourced except for one passage which had a citation to a program by "Independent World Television" that does not seem to exist anymore. The "Notable Graudates" section had errors according to the given source and there was already another duplicate list in the article. The introduction to "Controversy" section had unsourced claims or had material that duplicated that in other sections already.Ultramarine 07:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

If there is to be an introduction to the controversy (or any other) section, it will inevitably duplicate material.

A better approach is to get rid of the "controversy" subsections and compress the material into a few paragraphs.Proabivouac 08:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

If there was a problem with the source, instead of deleting the entire paragraph, a better approach was to find a better source--not delete valid information. As I showed above, finding several good sources to verify the information was easily done. Now that I have provided serveral valid sources above, I take it you will restore the section? Likewise with the notable graduates box, adding in any of the additional sources I provided above which shows the list is accurate. Since these are living people, its best to pick more than one source.Giovanni33 19:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Exactly what is sourced and should be added back?Ultramarine 19:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

See above. I provided sources for everything you took out. Pick which sources are good for you and use that to restore the information. Thanks.Giovanni33 01:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I am still unsure what part of the Demonsrations section is sourced. Add back what you state is sourced. Exactly what standard should we use for including someone as Graduate? Ultramarine 09:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, see above, and choose which source you think is best, with the corresponding statements regarding these notable demonstrations. As far as graduates, the standard is notablity. For instance, if they have WP articles about each graduate--whch the list you deleted did have. I say restore that list, and choose among any of the various sources above I provided for citation.Giovanni33 22:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The differences between our version is this + sources above.

Sourced regarding demonstrations is the last paragraph by Gareu and the 19,000 demonstation as per above.

Regarding graduates, you give sources above stating that Montt was a graduate. SOA watch does not list him despite claiming to have a complete database with all graduates. This seems to cast doubt about SOA watch in general (or the other sources). There is also a source claiming that Posada is a "Cuban exile" graduate of the school, not mentioned by SOA Watch, and not one of the usual allegations surroundig him. I propose we have one list with graduats and clearly states the source for each allegations. Like "SOA watch states that.... were graduates. X and Y states that Montt was a graduate." And so on. Thoughts?Ultramarine 12:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know that about the sources above, and he one from Gareu that I added with his own comments about the demonstrations. But, why havn't you added any of this material back to the article, then? I supplied many sources above. Your very quick to delete but very slow to restore. Regarding the graduates section, I think using serveral sources are needed, because these are living people. The SOA source is fine, but not alone. It needs additional sources, as I've provided above. Together they support all the listed graduates as I had orginally restored.Giovanni33 21:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I can only see that you have added multiple sources for Montt. Are there more sources for anyone else? Added material on demonstrations.Ultramarine 23:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the sources list multiple graduates. Since you were having trouble restoring this information, I have done it. The section should be restored, which is what I did, and added multiple references.Giovanni33 05:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section

I have removed the trivia section as unencyclopedic and useless. If there was any worthwhile information there, I encourage its restoration to an appropriate location in the body of the article.Proabivouac 08:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Two articles

As stated in the "Changes" section, the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation is very different from the School of the Americas. The Institute itself denies that it is the same organization as the School of Americas. So I think we should create a separate article for the School of the Americas.Ultramarine 08:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• Although the official position is they are two seperate entities there are numerous arguments to support the critique that the only difference is the name. Since much, if not all, has remained the same I have no objection to discussing them both in one article. However, I am not principally opposed to two articles. Just not my first choice as it seems a bit overly cautious. Nomen Nescio 09:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Please give these sourced "numerous arguments".Ultramarine 09:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ultramarine, apologies if you've already answered this question, but what are your sources?Proabivouac 09:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I am citing for example the Institute itself. It in turns refers to sources like US Congress legislation.Ultramarine 09:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a need for two article. The fact that the name has been changed, and that this article adopts its current name, suffices, for that recognition. There may have been other changes, but it can not earase its history, its previous name, or the fact that many see the chanages as onlyl only superficial to its overall nature. Any article about the WHISC (SOA), will necessessarily touch on these topics, so there is no reason to make two articles.Giovanni33 01:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Could you please proved sources for your claims that the differences are superficial.Ultramarine 09:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

As per above the article should be split into one called "School of the Americas" and one with the current title.Ultramarine 12:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

As per above, no it shouldn't. The history of this organization, including its changes, and name change, are all valid parts of this article. Why do you think there are anual protests held at the WHISC, to close it down? A change in name and adding soem courses, etc. in response to massive protests, does not earase its past. Do not blank sources, again, please.Giovanni33 05:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Please give sources for claims that they essentially not different, I have given sources for the opposite view.Ultramarine 05:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Month Long Revert War Ends Now

I have reverted this article back to the June 3rd, 2007 version. As you can see from the page history of this article there has been a revert war going on in this article for more than a month. I don't think that I have ever seen such a willful disregard for WP:CONSENSUS ever on this project. The revert warring ends now, all issues with regards to the article are to be discussed here and not forced upon the article without discussion. Of the two parties involved in this dispute, namely User:Giovanni33 and User:Ultramarine, I will say that if either of you instigate another revert war beyond this point you will be recieve a month long block. Good day.--Jersey Devil 07:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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