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2003 - June 2007

Pictures of Muhammad (continued)

With respect to this subject let me mention here that pictorial dipictions of Our PROPHET (May Peace be upon HIM) or any other kind of attempt in this regard is total violation of Islamic values. It is an open defiance to the Sacredness of the PROPHET of ISLAM. Picture being relevant is not the issue here. The issue here is the Peronality it is depicting. This issue may be of little interest to many people but for followers of Islam it is very serious.Any picture may be offensive to anyone but this particular picture is depicting a PERSONALITY whose sacredness is beyond any doubt. This picture is offensive to whole of the Muslim Ummah and we all want it removed from this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 05:30, July 4, 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but Islamic values have no place at Wiki as wiki is a medium for knowledge and learning, not religous worship. Therefore Misplaced Pages policy takes precedence over islamic taboo See WP:CENSOR. Dman727 06:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

We would like to now what knowledge this particular picture provides to non-muslims or for that matter to muslims as well ? Learning to respect each other's religious values is better way to sort out differences. This particular picture is likely to create more confusion then sense. The problem here is that every one seems to judge things according to his/her own perspective with least knowledge of facts. If this issue is being pursued then it is clear that something is seriuosly wrong with this particular picture. Why not just replace it with actual picture of the black stone to close this issue once and for all and stop offensive remarks on each other's way of thinking and religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 04:53, July 5, 2007 (UTC)

We? Who is we? Misplaced Pages is not oriented towards Islam, nor any other religion. Its about knowledge - see WP:CENSOR I'm sorry that you personally find this offensive, however it would violate many wiki principles to censor the encylopedia to conform to a minority religious viewpoint. For that matter no encyclopedia at all would be possible if it attempt to conform to all religions. I would suggest not viewing the picture so as to avoid being offended. Dman727 05:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

why doesnt anyone realize that by displaying such blasphemeous content, the credibilty of wiki as whole becomes at stake. when this particular picture can very easily be substituted with actual picture of the black stone. i am trying to upload but with their seems to be some error. so if anyone is willing i can e-mail that picture to him and he/she can upload it. please stop mixing up blasphemy with knowledege. This picture provides hardly any knowledge while on the other end it is of offensive nature. so please do realize the importance of this issue and do not behave in narrow minded way. All dipictions of this sort should be avoided at all costs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 12:06, July 9, 2007 (UTC)

The painting isnt blasphemeous, nor offensive, nor even a picture (its a painting). Maybe to a few, but for those you can always try Islamopedia or simply closing your eyes. The painting is relevant, tasteful and extremely relative to the text at hand. Have you read the accompanying text?? What wikipolicy dictates that we must avoid it (at all cost no less)? Remember Islamo-policy has no relevance here, only wikipolicy. Frankly, this sillyness is starting to get quite annoying. Dman727 12:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

How you can decide if it is not blasphemeous and offensive. Are you Muslim? It is extremely offensive and blasphemeous for Muslims. --- A. L. M. 12:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Simple - I used the same process that you used to decide it is. Our religion has NO bearing here. See WP:CENSOR Dman727 13:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That is different debate and for its answer look at there. However, now you admit that it is (or may be) offensive to Muslims. Hence you will not say it again that "The painting isnt blasphemeous, nor offensive"? At least give us that much for God sake. --- A. L. M. 13:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Dman727 -- are you saying that the offence a picture causes part of the readership has absolutely no bearing on whether it should appear on Misplaced Pages? If so, I think you may be in the minority on that view. To make a rational decision, one must always weigh the positive against the negative with regards to Misplaced Pages's goals. If Misplaced Pages's goal is to inform, then the positive would be the knowledge conveyed by the photo, while the negative would be the alienation of a segment of the population. To be dominated by the latter would be irrational, but to ignore it entirely would be equally irrational. --P3d0 13:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

If an article is offensive to a majority of people, is not noteable, and doesnt inform then its certainly reasonable to remove it. In this case, this very old painting is noteable, informs and is tasteful to majority of the worlds population. Is offense 100% irrelevant? Perhaps not. But then I note the article Cleveland_steamer, one I find extremely offensive - probably to a majority of the worlds population, and only slightly noteable, yet the wiki community finds that the article meets wiki standards for inclusion (btw I've never voted on that article). In short "offense" is one of the least concerns. Dman727 13:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's hard not to agree to remove an image that if an image is simultaneously offensive, non-notable, and uninformative. Leaving aside your other points for a moment, what I'd like to figure out is, where is the line drawn? To me it would seem logical that if an image's negative attributes outweigh its pedagogical value, then it should be removed. Can we agree on this as a starting point? --P3d0 17:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh thats easy, the line is community consensus and wiki policy. This is hardly new ground. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel here, this same exact discussion has been hashed out several times (with the same objectors) on other articles. See Depictions_of_Muhammad, Black_stone, Talk:Muhammad/Mediation, Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy and a few others.Dman727 17:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The consensus is that such images can be included, if they are presented in a respectful way. I would also point out that though there are indeed traditions in the Muslim community which avoid images of Muhammad, that these traditions are directed towards Muslims, not towards non-Muslims. It would be inappropriate for a Muslim to go through the Library of Congress ripping out any page that had an image of Muhammad. It would be equally inappropriate for an orthodox Jew to go through a supermarket destroying anything that was non-kosher. Or for a Christian from the Midwest to go through a California liquor store and berate them for selling alcohol on a Sunday. Let's please keep individualized customs, separate from creating a source of knowledge. The images of Muhammad at Misplaced Pages are intended to inform -- not to antagonize, not to evangelize. They are intended to educate. Removing them would do a disservice to those who have a genuine good faith desire for knowledge. --Elonka 18:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Is there a relevant policy? That would be ideal. Thanks for the links. --P3d0 18:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

No one on this page has clearly stated what really does this image convey ? All the discussion on this topic clearly shows something is very wrong about this picture. This picture does not conform with Islamic principles so crediblity of the article and the knowledge it is suppose to provide is questionable. All the More so then this article is less of facts and more of fabricated non-Islamic material as this picture clearly indicates. If such pictures are to inform about PROPHET (SAW) then equally well they are wrong since Islam prohibits such depictions. If such pictures are to inform about Islam then they dont provide the clear picture about Islam as they are strongly prohibited. If such pictures are to inform about Kaaba then it is totally out of place. A picture of black stone is ore relevent here. If this picture is suppose to portray open mindedness then such iressponsible acts have resulted in un-warranted loss to many people of differing faiths. Non-Muslims dont realize this fact that is why they are insisting on keeping this image.

so is wiki a media of knowlegde or ignorance. Result is wiki being used by people who are happy and satisfied with defaming other religions and playing with sentiments of people of other faiths in the name of knowledge. so once again it is stressed that this picture be removed from this article and actual picture of black stone be placed in its place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) (06:12, July 10, 2007 (UTC)

I understand that English is not the first language of some of the editors here, so let me try to explain: The image is used with respect. It is a picture about something that happened at the Kaaba, so it is right for it to be here. Please do not use Muslim rules here. I understand that some Muslims say that there should be no images of Muhammad. These are rules that some Muslims follow. That is okay. But please understand. The rules about no images of Muhammad are religious rules. The rules apply to Muslims. They do not apply to non-Muslims. Please do not force Muslim rules on non-Muslims. You said that people want to defame other religions, but please, this is not correct. There is no desire here to defame religions. There is only the desire for knowledge. Please respect that Misplaced Pages is here to provide information -- not to promote religion. Misplaced Pages does not promote Christianity or Judaism or Islam or any other religion. The desire here is just for knowledge, to make Misplaced Pages like a very large library. We want a peaceful and respectful location to provide knowledge to the entire world. That is all. Peace. --Elonka 07:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If you have to add images then do add them we cannot stop you. However please stop saying following. "The image is used with respect.". No they are not. They are disrespect to us and great disrespect. Hence stop saying so at least. Pleasee. Secondly do not say that "I understand that some Muslims say that there should be no images of Muhammad.". Not SOME but very vast majority of Muslims dislike those images. Thanks. -- A. L. M. 10:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

This article (and a lot of its supporters) is claiming to present knowledge about the Holiest place of Islam at one end and on the other displaying images of The Highest PERSONALITY of the Islamic World with the pretext of knowledge which is strictly forbidden in the same religion. where has all the sense gone? cant anyone understand this important point. The Islamic rules apply to every thing related to Islam either person or location or article. Dont you see the point here ? This means that non-muslims cannot and should not interfere with core Islamic values and leave them as they are. on the other hand if non-muslims want to contribute some knowledge about Islam then they should be careful enough to exclude what voilates the Islamic values. no one not even muslims are allowed to make such irresponsible acts on pretext of knowledge. you people are talking about censor. what i want here is an actual picture of black stone on the wall of KAABA which will be all the more informative then an image which was made by someone (who Knows) and its legitimacy is highly questionable from knowledge point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 09:43, July 10, 2007 (UTC)

There's a response to this whole issue of image insertion: User:Matt57/Pictures of Muhammad and Misplaced Pages policies. In short, removing these images is against Misplaced Pages policy. --Matt57 14:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

(reply to 124.29.249.34) By "respect", I mean that our intentions are good, to show an image that honors Muhammad in a positive way. If we wanted to be disrespectful, we would show images like these. Instead, the consensus of Misplaced Pages editors is to use positive images of Muhammad that show him in a good light, as a wise man who made peace. I am confused as to how anything could be more respectful than that. --Elonka 16:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no question of being respectful of not. A pictorial depiction is very strong voilation of the values your article is trying to project here. This picture only seems to be informative for those who have blocked their minds to the simple fact that it is wrong, blasphemous and shows very little to one's knowledge. People keep on saying that deleting this image is against the policy of wiki. If that is so then why an actual image of black stone which was substituted yesterday has been promptly removed and this blasphemous picture placed in its place. This clearly shows discrimination on part of wiki as the editing is being made conditional according to the terms of those who control wiki.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghulam muhammad21 (talk • contribs) 05:48, July 11, 2007 (UTC)

The article is not attempting to project Islamic values (nor any other religion). The article is attempting to educate. In fact, if the article DID project Islamic values, it would likely constitute a violation of WP:NPOV. It is respectful, tasteful, encylopedic, it is not blasphemous to most people. While it is true that offends a small minority of vocal people, that is irrelevant to the task of writing an encylopedia and the overwhelming consensus supports its inclusion. If the picture offends you, I suggest that you not view it. 07:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is projecting something very important to Islam and at the same time depicting something more important in a false and blasphemous manner. What education does this particular picture give ? if everyone is so consious of wiki's policy, then why a legitimate edit is being reverted every time it is made i.e an actual picture of black stone is put in place of this offensive picture. why majority of you are in favour of a picture already mentioned and accepted as offensive for many people? why an actual picture of the black stone (which non-muslims dont see or have not seen) should not be placed here when the topic is related to the mounting of stone itself in Holy Kaaba's wall? why is this issue being compared to pictures of private body parts on some article ? Is this the respect people have for other people's faith and religion? what is meant by saying that this picture is presented with respect when making such pictures itself is strongly condemnable?

wiki will be equally educative and useful if this picture is removed or substituted. wiki's content is taken as fairly authentic by almost all of its users. now if this particaular content (regarding some topic) is falefully conveyed and still many people support it as educative then the credibilty of such people's intentions regarding inter-faith harmony become questionable.Education is important but falsehood should not be allowed to creep into it.That is why this matter needs to be sorted out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs) 11:54, July 11, 2007 (UTC)

Can I clarify something here? Do you believe that there are people who truly do not find the images offensive? Or do you think that everyone adding the images to this article must be doing so to cause controversy and disruption? --P3d0 16:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Controversy and disruption of what actual facts ? People who have added this blasphemous picture in the first place should have been asked the question. It is they who have placed a controversial image knowing very well its implications and under the pretext that it does not offend them. well it offends those who are related to whole of Islam. It offends those who know that it is not permissible. It offends those who know that its inclusion in this article is more of ignorance then fact. Finally it offends those who know that it is really an act to put down Islam very directly. On the other hand it does not offend those who have very little or no knowledge about this issue, who have no sympahty for followers of other faiths, who give more importance to wrong than right based on their own narrow-mindedness.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs)

It's not on the pretext that it does not offend them. It's on the basis that it doesn't matter if it offends people. I'm not sure I agree with that argument, but let's at least be clear what the argument is. --P3d0 11:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected because of the recent reverting over the image. Could someone explain what the issue is, and whether an alternative image could be found that would satisfy all parties? SlimVirgin 12:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The issue is simple: Muhammad is shown. Some editors feel that the appearance of Muhammad anywhere violates their religion. The trouble is that this image is very notable - it is one of the earliest surviving depictions of Muhammad - and couldn't be more topical - it depicts exactly the legend which is recounted in the text. If this tradition is not topical to the article, or too marginal to be mentioned, that is another discussion which I've not yet seen.Proabivouac 12:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for protecting page, Slim

(Slim, didn't see your edit above.)

Attention trolls: The picture of Muhammad does not have consensus. BYT 12:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I thought it was the main image that was being objected to. Could an alternative be found to the image of Muhammad? SlimVirgin 12:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Pro could help us look for one, as the seasoned consensus-builder in residence on this page. BYT 12:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Curb your sarcasm, BYT. As long as the article discusses the story of Muhammad and the Kaaba, an image of the same is on-topic.Proabivouac 12:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

And manifestly lacks consensus. By the way, we have a rule around here that you can't revert a page more than three times in a twenty-four-hour period. BYT 12:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, so why not start with anon who reverted seven times? (whereas my last revert was a self-revert after ALM's vexatious report) Do you really expect that anyone will believe that you are only here to ensure that others play by the rules? Anon was blocked for vandalism, BYT; reverting vandalism is upholding the rules, not violating them.Proabivouac 12:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

It's only "vandalism" when you disagree with the content, apparently. Yes, anon should have been blocked. Yes, anon was engaged in discussions on this talk page. Yes, this was a content dispute. Yes, you are still obliged to play by the rules. There were four reverts:

• 07:18, 10 July 2007
• 07:27, 10 July 2007
• 09:44, 10 July 2007
• 10:34, 10 July 2007

To the point. This image you're so enthusiastic about -- have you won consensus for it on this talk page? BYT 12:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

See this self-revert, BYT.

Anyhow, so what you're saying is, anon can revert an arbitrary number of times (however many he/she can get away with before block) - and who knows what is the regular usename of anon, or if it is even affected - while those which revert him/her are blocked for doing so. I am absolutely certain that you would not hold this stance were this material any kind of slur against your beloved POV. Otherwise, you might want to start with User:DavidYork71, whose socks have often been reverted as of late.Proabivouac 13:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am pretty sure I asked you whether you had secured consensus for the image you are trying to insert. Is there a reason you don't want to address that question, Pro? BYT 13:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, mediation showed a very clear consensus to include depictions of Muhammad. Ignoring !votes in blatant contempt of policy only makes it that much clearer. What is your reason for removing them, besides your personal religious sensibilities? There is none.Proabivouac 13:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

"Blatant contempt of policy" -- it doesn't sound to me like you're showing much good faith here. And I'm a veteran. I shudder to think what traumas the newbies may be experiencing here. Or is it policy to bite them now?

Two questions: 1) Is it your position that it simply doesn't matter whether there's consensus to include an image at Kaaba? (Not Muhammad, Pro -- Kaaba.) That's not how I understood the principles guiding this encyclopedia.

2) Once again -- and I'm only repeating myself because I can't seem to gauge your response to this -- would you say that the image you are trying to include has attained consensus? How would you describe the editorial reaction to it? BYT 13:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, spare us the wikilawyering. Everyone knows your reasons by now, and yes, including depictions of Muhammad on Misplaced Pages has earned very broad consensus, broader (judging from the number of editors) than almost anything else we discuss here. I encourage you to open an RfC for this or any other article.Proabivouac 13:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• You can call it wikilawyering if you want.
• I think the people who know what they're doing around here (and I certainly number you among them) have an obligation to try to find some common ground.
• If I can accept the necessity for consensus at Zionism, I see no reason why you can't make an effort here.
• Once again -- do you think it's worthwhile to try to attain consensus for the edits you want to make on this page? BYT 13:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

But doesn't 'common ground' mean 'remove all pictures of the Prophet from any article'? Tom Harrison 13:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

With respect, it certainly doesn't mean that at Muhammad, Tom. BYT 13:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

My impression is that, there, it is only a truce. I have not seen much acknowledgment that there is a consensus to include the pictures. Tom Harrison 13:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There was disagreement on the type of depictions (e.g. veiled or unveiled) and their placement (lead or not), but a clear consensus that at least some depictions would be included, and overwhelming support for the notion that Muhammad should be treated no differently from any other historical figure - but repeated blanking does just that.Proabivouac 21:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• I can only speak for myself. After the Danish cartoons thing, I realized consensus was the only meaningful yardstick here. As a practical matter, whether something, and particularly an image, offends Muslims is now totally beside the point. (See that article, by the way -- there was overwhelming consensus to include patently offensive images, and I've contented myself with improving the text.)

• It's not a truce, what's happening at Muhammad -- it's a quite purposeful piece of humiliation. But it has to stand if there is consensus, which there is.

• Were you aware, Tom, that there was a movement there recently to include an image of the Prophet being disemboweled? There was no consensus for that. Every once in a while there's evidence around here of an encyclopedia, as opposed to a live grenade in text form. BYT 13:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok BYT, removing these images is against Misplaced Pages policy. See User:Matt57/Pictures of Muhammad and Misplaced Pages policies. --Matt57 14:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Matt, and for the link to your userpage. If it's all right with you, I'll talk to some of the other Justices on the bench, too. BYT 14:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, You will not find a policy that states that you have the right to not be offended. Wiki is not censored.--Strothra 16:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. My point has never been that I am (or am not) offended, and I have ventured no such opinion about the image under dispute. (Read my posts, please, if you're interested in taking part in this discussion.) Rather, my point is that that there exists no consensus to place this image in the article. And also that editors who know better should abide by 3RR without attempting to tapdance their way around it. BYT 19:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I was already involved in this discussion before on the Muhammad article. The arguments are based on the same premises except for you claim that no consensus exists which I hardly agree with. Wiki policies and the majority of editors seem to support it except for those few who argue that the images are offensive - that argument, however, is not valid. Your argument is simply a red herring. --Strothra 21:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit surpised at the claim that there is no consensus. This has been raised repeatedly (by the same few folks), and the result is always the same. The images are perfectly fine and only offend a small minority of folks who make it a career to be offended by them here on wiki. Dman727 21:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That's because consensus does exist. BYT's attempt to assert otherwise does not make it true. Consensus existed on this same issue through recent and lengthy mediation on the Muhammad article. We have already achieved supermajority and consensus (see Wp:consensus#Consensus_vs._supermajority) through mediation in addition to this debate. Really, this issue has been solved already and any further disruptions due to it are bordering on violating WP:POINT particularly through BYT's consistent reversions. --Strothra 21:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• ALM
• Myself
• 124.29.249.34
• Ghulam Muhammad
• Zora

... are in opposition to the image. Pro and Matt57 appear to support, as does Dman727 and Strothra. SlimVirgin has asked whether a compromise image can be found, but I suspect that does not necessarily mean she supports our view of this. Tom has taken no position, as far as I can see.

If User:Strothra believes I have made "consistent reversions" -- indeed, any reversions at all -- to the article page, perhaps we could see the diffs that would confirm this. For my part, I believe I have made no edits whatsoever on the article related to this dispute.

Either I'm offended without knowing it (and, or course, editing the page without knowing it), or an apology is in order. BYT 17:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, we all know that those individuals are opposed to the image - however, as I stated above, they are opposed due to their "offensive" nature. That issue was resolved in extensive mediation and thus those arguments are invalid. --Strothra 18:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Another editor suggested we try using the show/hide template as a compromise. I've added it here so people can see what it looks like, though I don't know how it will work with Internet Explorer. I've reverted myself in the meantime. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin 18:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The show/hide template is far closer to compromise than the all or nothing demands that exist so far. I'm not completely opposed to it. I do have reservations, however, due to its censorship-like quality.

The only reason I can see in support of that edit is the fact that this article, unlike the Muhammad article, is not entirely about the individual. However, I oppose it because it is still a form of censorship. --Strothra 18:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The image is highly topical and Misplaced Pages's articles is written according to Wikpedia's own policies and not according to the regulations of Sharia. BrandonYusufToropov can continue attacking people that is opposing him here, but fact is that no valid argument for not including the image has been presented here. -- Karl Meier 20:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, your head count above is inaccurate. 124.29.249.34 and Ghulam Muhammad are one and the same, while you've failed to count Elonka, Euralyus, King Lopez and Matt57, who reverted the blanking just the other day.Proabivouac 19:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

My apologies. I believe I did include Matt (see above). Strothra, did I ever revert this article? Strothra, do people have to have the same motive in order to register opposition to an edit? BYT 20:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac and BYT, would you consider agreeing to the hide/show template, shown here, as a compromise? SlimVirgin 20:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but I want to hear what other editors have to say. BYT 14:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I would support a technical solution, but I don't think that's the right one: one should have to opt in to censorship, not opt out of it every time it arises. It's also easy for readers to miss that there is supposed to be an image there. Ideally, there'd be various filters users could apply to their own preferences, but I'm not certain Wikimedia would support it. Alternately, hide/show would be fine, as long as "show" were the default option: one shouldn't have to go around the article clicking things to make it display correctly.

I also recall from mediation that there was some compelling technical reason why we shouldn't use hide/show, but I can't recall what it was. Perhaps something about the way things appear (or don't appear) when mirrored?Proabivouac 21:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

If show were the default option, there'd be no point in using the template, because readers would see the image before they had time to hide it. The point is make it invisible except to those who seek it out. Not sure about the mirrored site issue. SlimVirgin 21:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

True, but someone must already be looking at the images to blank them. This would enable the offended to do so without affecting the article for anyone else.Proabivouac 21:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

We need some reasons with background in policy if we are to make any changes whatsoever. What are the reasons that we should limit the access to this image? That it doesn't suit the taste or religious ideas of a few editors is of course irrelevant to the discussion. -- Karl Meier 21:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Karl, I understand and respect the no-censorship issue. But the other side of it is that these images are sometimes added solely for the purpose of offending. I'm not saying this was done here, but it does sometimes happen. This is quite a depressing situation for the editors who may feel offended, because it's a double insult. We're saying: Not only are we willing to offend you; we're also going to use your feelings as your Achilles' heel and get another dig in whenever we see a chance. Again, I stress that I'm not saying this has happened here. I'm arguing that even the perception of it is distressing. That distress leads to entrenched positions, which leads to more enmity, which leads to more images being posted.

It would be an important gesture of goodwill to agree to a compromise that would break the cycle. SlimVirgin 21:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"But the other side of it is that these images are sometimes added solely for the purpose of offending."

Indeed. Several examples of this may be seen in mediation, where this image of Baphomet was proposed for inclusion, and more recently on Talk:Muhammad, where a famously disturbing work by Dali was displayed prominently on talk an edit-warred to remain despite widespread protest. Such trolling does not merit our indulgence, and should be reverted on sight.

Now see Talk:Black Stone#Moving the image lower on the page, where it was successfully argued that the image including Muhammad did not belong in the lead. Calls for censorship shouldn't be "bravely defied," but ignored.Proabivouac 22:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The hide/show template is rather interesting. For my part I don't know and I need to think about it. I suspect that it won't satisfy the folks who seek out being offended though. After all they don't have to click on "show", but then again they don't need to click on "Kabba" either. Perhaps we could use it for all manner of content disputes. For instance on articles about political figures we could use the hide/show template to cover up criticism so that the opposite political party members won't be offended. All the sexual reproduction articles could use the template to hide the naughty bits. I'm reserving judgement for now, but I'm skeptical on the basis that it won't satisfy the pro-censors folks, and it sets all kinds of bad precendent. Dman727 21:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

SV, I appreciate your effort for a compromise but goodwill actually is following Misplaced Pages policies. As a user pointed out this is still some form of censorship. Whats next? Having a little "show/hide" for 'PBUH' wherever Muhammad shows up? Please, no. Stick to policies. Thats what this website runs on, and if it didnt, there wouldnt be anything but chaos here. There's no need of a compromise that breaks policies. See my article on my user page why policies would be broken if these images are removed. --Matt57 23:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with Matt57. --Strothra 01:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I do as well--Sefringle 05:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

What's up with the page? It's got a padlock in the top right corner, but no top banner stating that it's protected/locked/whatever, and the reason why. 81.149.182.210 22:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Slimvirgin's creative show/hide option: I agree with Dman727's concerns, but I also have to say that I would be willing to accept it as a possible compromise. I am curious as to what ALM and Ghulam think about it. I'd also like to offer that another compromise might be simply changing the image caption. So instead of "Muhammad lifting the stone into place," it's simply "The Black Stone being lifted into place." --Elonka 07:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

No, this is censorship again. Read my link above. Dont compromise on policies. Misplaced Pages is not censored. --Matt57 14:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

If passive language ("being lifted") often sounds unduly evasive, here it would be exactly because we aim to evade. How about "An influential religious leader lifting the stone into place?" At least the sentence would have a proper subject.Proabivouac 19:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I think non-censorship should be the default, as it is elsewhere. If we do this here, then where else, and to accommodate who else? I'm not unsympathetic to those who are offended, but religious censorship is so dangerous that for me it is the over-riding concern. We could add a string to the name of each possibly-offensive image to make it easier to configure AdBlock to avoid them, or people could hack their css files and provide them to others. I've mentioned before that people might use AdBlock to avoid seeing images they do not want to see. As I recall, I was shot down immediately for insensitivity, etc. I suspect that letting the individual avoid the image is not the only motive for image removal. Tom Harrison 14:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

My personal feeling is that the proposal Slim has put forward shows a willingness to edit collaboratively that is worth discussing. I think consensus is worth pursuing on content issues. BYT 14:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Is that in reply to me? Tom Harrison 14:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope -- addressed to the page as a whole, back when yours was the most recent comment, located at the bottom of the page. BYT 14:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Tom harrison why cannot you understand a simple thing. That, if the aim is to not seeing pictures then I can stop visiting that page. Problem solved. However, aim is not show it to anyone by default so that my son does not see it and so is other people offended by it. Hence if AdBlock will be blocking it by default and you can see the image ONLY after pressing some button then the problem is solved. However, you are saying that first someone has to see it and get offended. Decide to stay in wikipedia and use AdBlock. In reality, most people decide to leave wikipedia after seeing those stupid pictures and vandalising page few time. Will you tell them all to come back and switch on the AdBlock instead? --- A. L. M. 14:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

ALM, this is not true: In reality, most people decide to leave wikipedia after seeing those stupid pictures. Why dont you read the stuff below and tell me how removing the images does not go against policy? This is an encyclopedia. Its primary job is to inform, not censor or cater to religious sentiments, customs or expectations.--Matt57 14:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

"In reality, most people decide to leave wikipedia after seeing those stupid pictures and vandalising page few time."

ALM, I'm glad you've finally admitted that blanking depictions of Muhammad is vandalism. That's a significant step.

"That, if the aim is to not seeing pictures then I can stop visiting that page. Problem solved."

Exactly.

"However, aim is not show it to anyone..."Proabivouac 08:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: Removing picture is NOT at all vandalism and I have never said it so. You has violated WP:3RR. I take page blanking as vandalism and that what I referred above as vandalism by many when they saw pictures. --- A. L. M. 10:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Been there, done that. I'm not going to yet again rehearse all the arguments from the mediation and the talk pages. I support keeping the image, with no show/hide template. Tom Harrison 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Then why you are repeating your AdBlock arguments. It has been replied similarly too before. Why to misguide readers with your argument of AdBlock that Tom wish to compromise but it is us... --- A. L. M. 14:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policies

Ok I'm going to reproduce part of my page here again to close this matter. Censoring images in any way is against Misplaced Pages policies. Any questions? Compromises on Misplaced Pages policies is not allowed, needless to say. Please stay firm with people who attempt to violate Misplaced Pages policies. --Matt57 14:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

How Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines may apply to issue of Muhammad's pictures

Misplaced Pages:Profanity

Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available. Including information about offensive material is part of Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not.

Some editors argue that in the light of this guideline:

• Typical Misplaced Pages readers do not find pictures of Muhammad offensive
• Exclusion of such pictures would result in the article being less informative, relevant and accurate.
• No suitable alternatives are available, as these pictures are historic
• As the policy states, "Including information about offensive material is part of Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not.". Therefore, the primary mission of Misplaced Pages and its editors is to improve articles so they are more informative. Being offensive is not Misplaced Pages's mission.
• In addition, there are no issues of copyrights as the copyrights for all these pictures have expired so the images can be used freely where relevant.

WP:NOT#CENSORED

This policy states:

• Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive.
• Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements.

Printing Images of Muhammad: A minority tradition?

Some users (Itaqallah and ALM) have suggested that since printing of Muhammad's images has not been a common affair, therefore Misplaced Pages too should not print the images otherwise it will be a violation of WP:UNDUE. Cartoon images of Muhammad have been printed all over the World and this is not likely to change now:

• List of newspapers that reprinted Jyllands-Posten's Muhammad cartoons

Printing of images is no longer a minority tradition and so UNDUE does not apply. --Matt57 14:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

very Good points. However, we should only use Cartoon in those pages. Because undue weight does not apply on them only. lets use cartoon on each page. --- A. L. M. 14:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The point is that printing of images of Muhammad is not a minority tradition. This was the only policy that you guys could bring up and its a weak policy anyway, in comparison to "NOT CENSORED" and "Misplaced Pages:Profanity". --Matt57 14:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Where can I find defination of WP:weak policy? Once again thanks for cool arguments. Lets start voting to use cartoon on each page. I am for it. --- A. L. M. 14:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Read below, the present cartoons are not relevant to this page. If you can find a notable cartoon of Muhammad and the Kaaba, feel free to upload it. --Matt57 14:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Then how undue weight get generalized for pictures because of those cartoons?? See your own arguments above. Do you think they are logical? Come on! --- A. L. M. 14:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by your first sentence? Please rephrase. --Matt57 15:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you once again for protecting what is obviously a contentious page, Slim

It's clear that there are some conflicting priorities in play here.

Matt, I'm not entirely sure why it was necessary to copy the contents of your userpage onto this talk page, but it seems to me unrelated to the task of formulating consensus on this issue. Why don't you simply share your own thoughts and contribute to the discussion as one editor to another? If we each quote vast chunks of our userpage, this conversation is going to become unwieldy very quickly. BYT 14:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I've pasted the content which relates to the policies. Why dont you respond to my question: How is removing these images not going against Misplaced Pages policies? There's no such thing as "having a consensus to go against Misplaced Pages policies". Please let it go. All this started because anons removing the picture repeatedly, something that no one would do under their real username. Respond to the policies issue now. Again, there's not going to be any consensus or compromise that violates Misplaced Pages policies. --Matt57 14:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I have replied above. That we should only use cartoon per your cool arguments. Hence lets start using cartoons only. --- A. L. M. 14:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure if you want to use one of those cartoons, go ahead but they wouldnt be very relevant to this page, unless someone drew a cartoon of Muhammad near the Kaaba and it received media attention - then we could use that cartoon as well. --Matt57 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• Matt, I need some specifics from you. Exactly what policy am I "violating" by not including, say, this image at Jesus, under the heading "Other views," where the article currently discusses New Age takes on Jesus and Bertrand Russell's view of him?

• You're saying, Matt, that it "violates policy" not to include this contentious, non-consensus image of Muhammad here at Kaaba. Would it "violate" the same "policy" to do the same thing at Jesus? If so, what policy is that?

• As editors (the very word implies a certain intelligence and judiciousness), we can include contentious images if there is consensus to do so. I see no policy that states that we must include contentious images in the absence of that consensus. BYT 14:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are you bringing in Jesus here? --Matt57 15:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Just answer the question, okay? You're very insistent on "policy" here. Would it or would it not "violate" the same "policy" to include this image at Jesus, under the heading "Other views," where the article currently discusses New Age takes on Jesus and Bertrand Russell's view of him?

I have no idea. Maybe its not a free image. Maybe you didnt try to use that image there and see what other people's arguments were. You're assuming the image cant be included, which is a false assumption. In any case, its not relevant to this issue. --Matt57 15:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

You have no idea. That's surprising to me.

It's entirely relevant by the way. You're claiming, repeatedly and with a certainty that stands in stark contrast to your response above, that it's "against policy" to "censor" a contentious image here.

It seems a fair question, Matt. Because we're all concerned about violations of policy, right? Would failing to include this image at Jesus, under the heading "Other views," constitute a violation of policy, or wouldn't it?

I need some clarity on your position. Is failing to insert an equally contentious, non-consensus image, in an analagous setting, equally "against policy" when it connects to a different audience? BYT 15:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I repeat, maybe its because that image is not free and its not relevant to anything there - I dont know. This issue is not relevant to this discussion. If you think that image is relevant and free for the article, go ahead and upload it, ok? Then if people are successful in removing it becuase they find it offensive, let me know. --Matt57 15:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

With respect, Matt, I think it is quite relevant.

There is a fundamental question at stake here: whether our goal is to edit collaboratively, with a willingness to work with and exchange views with other editors, or whether our goal is to hijack articles regardless of the feedback a proposed course of action elicits on the talk page.

For examples of collaborative editing where others stand in rigid (and continual) opposition to certain topics, see Zionism. The article does not look even close to the way it should, in my view. But that does not excuse me from the responsibility of winning consensus for edits I think are appropriate there. The end result is that I have to reach out to people who disagree with me, accept precedent in the article, and find common ground.

You should try it some time. BYT 15:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

You're changing the subject and going long winded. The fundamental issues here are not to violate Misplaced Pages policies. Removing an image that is considered offensive to some editors is the issue here and this (censorship) is against policies. Policies come first. Reaching a consensus comes second. If a consensus means compromising on a policy, that should obviously not be followed through. --Matt57 15:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt, which policies are you referring to? SlimVirgin 15:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

You can read above, the section I pasted from my page. WP:NOT CENSORED and NOT-profanity. Its all there above. --Matt57 15:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

You're obviously quite certain about them, so you won't mind answering a direct question I hope. Assuming the availability of a publc-domain image that looks like this, would someone who opposed the inclusion of that image at Jesus to illustrate the donnybrook over The Da Vinci Code be in "violation" of the same policies? Why wouldn't that be censorship, in your view? BYT 15:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok - why would anyone oppose the inclusion of that image? If they were offended by it, then yes it would be censorship. Whats your point? --Matt57 15:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt, thank you for outlining which policies you're relying on. Let's look at what they say.

WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored is policy, but it doesn't support your argument that not including this image would violate policy. It simply says that "Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements." That says nothing about our ability not to include such material.

Misplaced Pages:Profanity is a guideline, not policy, but it also doesn't support your argument. It says: "Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available. Including information about offensive material is part of Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not."

It also says: "As in all discussions on Misplaced Pages, it is vital that all parties practise civility and assume good faith. Words like "pornography" or "censorship" tend to inflame the discussion and should be avoided (emphasis added)."

So the question is: how would removing that image "cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate." SlimVirgin 15:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The policy NOT CENSORED does support my arguement. It says "Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive.". So if you're trying to move an image because its offensive, thats against policy. And be aware that there are perhaps 4 other articles that are using this image, including Muhammad and there are other images of Muhammad all over this website as well. Remove them all as well if they are not "adding any information".

So the question is: how would removing that image "cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate."

Ok so this is going to be your main argument then. Fine. This picture is a picture of Mohammad putting in the Kaaba stone. This event was an actual event recorded in Islamic history, so its obviously relevant and its accurate, as its a painting. I mean, they didnt have digital cameras 1400 years ago, so all we have is paintings for that era. That applies to all painting images in Misplaced Pages. The image is informative as well as its showing an even that really occured. Its as valid relevant, informative and accurate as the Misplaced Pages logo you see up there on the top of this page. --Matt57 15:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's what you gotta do SV : stick to polices, otherwise it ends up in a big mess everytime. You should have semi-protected (not full) that page so anons couldnt vandalize the article again. Thats what you should have done. Instead you've roused up this debate again which has taken place and settled many times before (see the talk page of Muhammad). --Matt57 15:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with that last sentence of the guideline: both "censorship" and "pornography" are completely legitimate words to use in our discussions; if not, then let us change WP:NOT which uses "censor" quite conspicuously. Much less useful is the word "blasphemy/blasphemous" which shouldn't apply here at all, as Misplaced Pages doesn't have a religion against which to blaspheme: this word appeared frequently in the posts which started this most recent discussion. Though others may have learned to avoid this term, it is an honest description of the concept which motivates this discussion.Proabivouac 20:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think removing the image in any way impairs the article. It's not like you won't be able to understand the event without seeing the image. BYT 15:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Lets remove the Misplaced Pages logo too then. I dont think its going to impair this website, right? --Matt57 15:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

If the article were discussing, say, the invasion of Normandy, and if the reader had to understand the different events taking place on Omaha Beach vs. Utah Beach (or whatever), including a map would be a good thing, and removing it would definitely detract from the article. If the article were France, however, removing the image would not be a problem in my view. This image would definitely belong at an article called Muhammad's role in the rebuilding of the Kaaba, which we could link to from this article. Perhaps you would be willing to work on such an article with me? BYT 16:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

If you're going to follow those lines, then I could argue that it would infact better belong in Muhammad as found at t-5.67 seconds before inserting the stone in the Kaaba. And no, the article you proposed would probably not have much content and people would ask it to be merged to Kaaba. For once people need to accept that this is an encyclopedia and its job is to inform. --Matt57 16:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

If you were serious about finding common ground with an editor who is working with you in good faith and trying to resolve a difference of opinion, though, you might consider working constructively and considering something other than the zero-sum game you've been proposing here. Working with people who disagree with you can actually improve the encyclopedia. It all depends on what you want from the process, Matt. BYT 16:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, there's no such thing as finding common grounds that violate policies. As I pointed out to SV, the image is relevant, informative and accurate for this article. Are you honest in treating this image as any other image or are you opposing its inclusion because you find it offensive? I mean, this is a great unique historical image that tells us about an event that actually happened. Why would anyone want to remove an image like this? --Matt57 16:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's our problem. Removing this image doesn't violate policy -- not in the way that, say, making a fourth reversion in a wtwenty-four hour period violates policy. Removing the image simply doesn't conform to your interpretation of what the policy requires. Not everyone views these matters in the way that you do. That's where the collaboration part comes in. (And no, I don't find the image offensive. If I did, why would I be proposing that we use it elsewhere?) BYT 16:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt, you want us to stick to WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored and Misplaced Pages:Profanity, and that's fine, but we must do it properly. The sentence you quoted from WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored is: "Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive." This does not mean that editors are not allowed to remove that content. So the policy does not support your argument.

As for your next point, the relevant sentence from Misplaced Pages:Profanity is: "Words and images that would be considered offensive ... should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate ... (emphasis added).

You argued only that the image is "obviously relevant and its accurate." But that is not the point of that sentence in Misplaced Pages:Profanity. What it says, again, is an offensive image may be used if and only if the omission of the image would make the ARTICLE less informative or accurate. If it were a photograph, it would make the article more informative, because we could see: "Oh, this really did happen." Or, if it were a contemporaneous image, we could see: "People believed even at that time that it really did happen, so it probably did." But this is a drawing from hundreds of years after the event. It tells us nothing about the event itself, but only what one person hundreds of years later imagined it might have looked like, sort of, assuming it happened. I could have drawn it; you could have drawn it.

So my question again is: "how would removing that image "cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate"? SlimVirgin 16:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin: The full sentence of the policy that you are quoting says: "Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available." First, the typical Misplaced Pages reader is not offended by the image, simply because the typical reader of Misplaced Pages isn't an ultraconservative Muslim. Even BrandonYusufToropov has made it clear that he personally doesn't find it offensive. As for the image, it is as mentioned highly topical, being included in the "at the time of Muhammad" section showing Muhammad interacting with the articles subject. I don't think it would make any sense for us to censor an image simply in order to meet the demands of ultraconservative Muslims. If we are going to meet their demands we will have to delete a whole lot of content from the 'pedia, but fortunately fact is that we don't have to because Misplaced Pages is not censored. -- Karl Meier 16:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

SV, this is not going to work in the end as you, ALM and BYT want it to, trust me. We can go on and on for this for 2 months and the result in the end is going to be the same. Now, profanity (as Karl pointed out as well) as you're talking about it here and offensive images, are only considered offensive if TYPICAL readers find the image offensive. You're picking parts of the policy for what suits you. The policy says: Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers - do TYPICAL Misplaced Pages readers find these images offensive? NO. --Matt57 16:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that's a fair point, and we can come to that. But first, could you please answer the question I've asked twice now, which is: How would removing that image cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate? SlimVirgin 17:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

That question is only relevant if the image is considered offensive by typical Misplaced Pages readers. Right? --Matt57 17:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, they're two separate points. I'd first like to know whether you can answer the question, given how much you want the image to remain. Can you please say why its omission would make the article less accurate, relevant, or informative? SlimVirgin 17:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

No its not two seperate points. Its being used in the same sentence infact. The question is irrelevant in this case as I said, since typical Misplaced Pages readers dont find the image offensive. --Matt57 18:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

At the very least, it is the oldest and most notable depiction of the Kaaba to be found on this article.Proabivouac 18:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It was painted hundreds of years later, so it doesn't tell us anything about the Kaaba. It tells us only about the artist. SlimVirgin 18:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

No, 1) it also tells about the famous story, which is depicted pretty much exactly as it is desribed in the records; 2) it confirms that the appearance of the Kaaba has not changed much since 1315, and 3) it is actually the only image on this page which gives any glimpse at all of what the Kaaba looks like when uncovered by the kiswah (among many other things, but those should do for now.) The notion that this is just a random artist's fanciful invention is completely unjustified.Proabivouac 19:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt, I'm asking why you feel that removing the image would leave the article less informative, accurate, or relevant. The guideline you say we must follow asks editors not to use the censorship argument. So I am asking what your editorial and intellectual opinion is regarding why that image adds to the article. You must have one, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that we keep it. So what is it? SlimVirgin 18:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I've explained many times how the image improves the article. Others have given the argument too. Even then, I repeat, the requirement of an image being informative, accurate, or relevant is only valid if the image is offensive to the typical Misplaced Pages editor. Answer this question: Is this image offensive to you and typical Misplaced Pages editors? --Matt57 20:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The article directly discuss what is illustrated by the image, and having both text and an image explaining to the reader what happened is better and more informative than including text only. Of course we can explain everything with words, and we could properly also remove all the images from for example the Pig articles due to ultra conservative Muslims perhaps being offended. However, explaining historical events as it the case with this article, or for example the anatomy of the pig with words only will make our articles less informative and less attractive to the readers, than if we choose to use a wider range of media to communicate relevant information with. -- Karl Meier 18:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

How on Earth could deleting the oldest and most noteable depiction of the event improve the article? Putting aside for a moment the issue of islamic taboo, removing this image only makes the article less informative. The painting does what any photo, painting or drawing does of an event, help the reader and viewer understand the event. For modern events, photos and clips of events illustrate them in words cannot do (i.e. "a picture is worth a thousand words"). For ancient events, paintings and drawings serve the same exact purpose. Frankly I believe that a fundamental debate about whether photos, paintings and drawings serve a purpose in an article is bordering on disengenious. Furthermore, lets be honest, the only compromise acceptable to the professional offendees would be the worldwide destruction of all images of Mohammed. Dman727 18:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

This was stated very frankly above:

"…do not behave in narrow minded way. All dipictions of this sort should be avoided at all costs."Proabivouac 20:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think striking up an extreme position in either direction is unhelpful: that all such images should be avoided in accordance with some Muslim sentiment, or that they must all stay in accordance with some anti-censorship sentiment. Rather, we need to look at each case separately and decide how much information the image is adding to the article. I hope Matt will answer my question about that. SlimVirgin 20:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

SV, no, Misplaced Pages does not cater to religious customs or beliefs and compromise on its policies and mission of being a source of information. The images are not offensive to typical Misplaced Pages readers and so your argument is moot. As to why the image is relevant and adds information to this article, others have given very good answers above in addition to my own. Why did you not reply to the issues others raised here? --Matt57 20:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt, I won't ask the question for the fifth time. I'm going to assume by your failure to reply that you don't have an editorial or intellectual argument that omitting the image would make the article less informative. The no-censorship argument is simplistic. We censor Misplaced Pages every time we include A but not B. We censor ourselves every time we go out in public; every time we're polite to someone we don't like. There is no such thing as no censorship.

Which issues I have not replied to, Matt? SlimVirgin 21:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Karl and Dman brought up some arguments which respond to your question. --Matt57 21:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't keep referring me to previous posts. I don't see anything to respond to. If I've missed something, please tell me here what it is. SlimVirgin 21:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok SV, I'll have to spell it out for you then: Karl's response to your question, Dman's response and now Tom's response below and you'll have many more if you like. Let me know if you dont get any of it and I'll rephrase it for you. I had responded to your question too and I can explain more if you need, but first you need to respond to Karl, Tom and Dman. --Matt57 21:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, re "We censor Misplaced Pages every time we include A but not B."

The contemporary denotations of "edit" and "censor" are very different, as a quick glance at any dictionary will show.

Re "We censor ourselves every time we go out in public."

The appropriate analogies to Misplaced Pages aren't interactions with random strangers on the sidewalk, but such public venues as libraries, museums and academic courses. Unless Edinburgh University Library is impolite to hold this original, or Edinburgh University Press impolite to have reprinted it? Certainly, Misplaced Pages should aim for respectability - and very often doesn't - but from a scholarly perspective, there is nothing at all disreputable about this material, or about making it available to the public.Proabivouac 21:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Break 1

How would removing a picture of the re-dedication of the Kaaba make our article on the Kaaba less informative? Because it would remove an illustration of one of the most significant events in the history of the subject. It would do so because some people find it blasphemous. Including a picture of any other historical figure doing anything else would pass without remark, unless someone said, "Hey, nice picture of Caesar at the Colosseum. That puts us on track to a featured article." Nobody would ask, "Could we remove this picture without impairing the article too much?" Raising the bar for pictures of Muhammad, is religious censorship. The motivation for removing this picture is that it is of Muhammad. Removing it, hiding it by default, fuzzing out the face, making it less prominent; any of these will then become a basis for further demands to compromise. Tom Harrison 21:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a slippery slope argument, Tom, and they're always weak. I take your point about religious censorship, I really do, but this is an article about a religion, and so it's obviously going to be a factor, just as writing about sex will raise the issue of sexual censorship, and writing about snuff movies will raise the issue of whether to show an image from one. Religious censorship isn't different from any other kind. What is happening is that people are saying: "I don't like this image/text because (fill in sexual, religious, intellectual, or other argument). And therefore other people must say: "We want to keep this image/text because it makes the article better in (fill in the ways it makes the article better).

It's the latter I'm waiting to see: the ways in which this image makes this article better. Someone has argued that it's an old image depicting the event. But it's not a very informative image, and it's not contemporaneous. So really it's just like something Tom or I could draw. So: are there any other ways in which this image makes this article better? SlimVirgin 21:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, if you accept one slippery-slope argument, you'll soon find yourself accepting others. Arguments need to be replied to, not just dismissed. If it were any other article it would be regarded as an improvement, and it clearly is an improvement, as would be any other historical illustration. Tom Harrison 22:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

SV, "it's not contemporaneous." It is indeed contemporaneous with the Kaaba, which existed in 1315, and presumably served as the basis for this illustration. It is not contemporaneous with the depicted events, but then neither is the written record of the same events, not by a longshot. That the illustration is not contemporaneous with the first appearance of the written records is a trivial point, especially as the entire story is most probably mythical anyhow.

"So really it's just like something Tom or I could draw." Perhaps if you are very skillful; I certainly could not reproduce it. But even if I could, it would fail notability; this image is held in the special collections of a prominent university library and certainly does not.

Ask this: Would there be any objection at all to this image were Muhammad and the Black Stone not part of it; i.e. if it illustrated only the kiswah being lifted to reveal the door of the Kaaba? Would it be called uninformative? And yet the presence of Muhammad and the black stone only adds information and context to the image (unless we are upset that he is obscures the right door?)Proabivouac 22:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering if there might actually be a technical solution here. The issue of "offensive pictures" is not unique to this article, it's also applicable to images in other articles, especially about sexual subjects. Perhaps the MediaWiki software could be adapted to include a "filter" option? It could be accessible in Preferences, so any User could tag checkboxes like "Show all images" or "Don't show images that are tagged as sensitive to Religion|graphical sex|etc." Then in certain image tags, we could add an option like "Filter=religion", which would trigger the appropriate preference. If it was triggered, the "show/hide option" would be enabled, and the image wouldn't automatically shown. Instead, the caption would be seen, with a disclaimer like Slimvirgin posted, "This image may be objectionable to some viewers. To see it anyway, please click 'Show'". --Elonka 04:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Elonka read this . I do not wish to censor all religious pictures. I love them. How can one imagine that Jesus is going to appear nacked on the page and hence he should censor without seeing him nacked first? --- A. L. M. 08:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

TOM POV: "Because it would remove an illustration of one of the most significant events in the history of the subject." He wish to have this image based on this POV, good point. I decline that such a minor event could be most significant. I will ask for any reference from TOM to prove this claim of one of most significant event.- --- A. L. M. 08:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The mistake that people here (SlimVirgin and Elonka) are making is giving in and listening to unreasonable demands, all because they want people like ALM and BYT to stop being offended and they see no other way out of it. Look at it rationally and stick to the rules: The job of this website is to inform. Anything that gets in the way of that should be swiftly ignored. I can stay in all year for this dispute, trust me. Elonka, what you're suggesting is probably not going to happen, it will involve the software developers to devote their time for this issue and they're busy with other stuff, you know. They dont care if a handful of articles have this problem. We have about 2 million articles here. Your solution would be justified if it applied to a good number of articles but it doesnt so its probably never going to be implemented. I appreciate your effort of trying to cooperate and find a compromise but I dont see any compromise here, except maybe - like we have in the Bahá'u'lláh article, they warn the reader by saying at the end of the lead:

Please note, a photograph of Bahá'u'lláh can be found at the end of this article.

So for example we could have:

Please note, a painting of Muhammad can be found in this article.

Thats all we can do. SlimVirgin are you there? You disappeared from this debate yesterday. I think you might realize that you probably made a mistake by fully-protecting the article and starting this debate, and not semi-protecting and ignoring these unreasonable demands. Now you've started off this debate again. --Matt57 14:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok and just to be sure, you all (Elonka and SlimV) are aware that there are many images of Muhammad all over Misplaced Pages, right? You're talking over here as if this is the only article which has a problem. Just making sure. --Matt57 14:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

We're not talking about other articles, Matt, just this one at the moment.

There's clearly no consensus to remove this image or to use the show/hide thing, which I see as a great pity, because it would have given both "sides" roughly what they wanted. The best thing to do is to post a warning at the top of the page. This may mean the article won't be read by some of the people who are probably most interested in it, but I don't see what else we can do. Elonka, thanks for your technical suggestions. They're definitely worth passing on to the developers. SlimVirgin 19:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Posting the warning is the only practical and acceptable thing to do, as it has been done for the Bahá'u'lláh article. So is this issue considered closed then? --Matt57 20:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Caption change requested

Appended to the caption is the message, "For more information on this image, please see Depictions of Muhammad." In fact, there is no further information about this image in that article which can't be more easily found by clicking on the image and viewing the Commons description, except for this: "…during the rule of the Sunni Arab Muzaffarid dynasty…" Which, as it happens, is false; accordingly I have removed it. There is no reason to send readers to Depictions of Muhammad looking for information which doesn't exist.Proabivouac 23:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be kept, as a way of reducing the edit wars. The link isn't just to more information about the image, but to more information about the controversy about the image. --Elonka 04:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Pro on this issue. The article doesn't elaborate further on the image nor is it necessarily relevant. --Strothra 04:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The image description page is on the Commons. It is my feeling that if a reader wanted more information about the image, that they should be advised to review the page at Depictions of Muhammad. --Elonka 05:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

No, that is misleading advice: there is no more information about the image to be found on that article. I say this as one who not too long ago followed the link and searched the article several times for the promised information before realizing that there was nothing besides the caption (which I then compared to the commons description and vetted to find the error.) Remember that there are readers involved here; However well intended, it's quite unethical to funnel them to that article in this way, even to reduce edit-warring. At the very least, the link could accurately state, "For information about Muslim attitudes towards Depictions of Muhammad in general…" Promising more information about "this image" is misrepresentation.

Nor am I aware of any controversy surrounding this image in particular. There was a controversy surrounding the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons, and a smaller one about the image on the frieze of the United States Supreme Court building - and there is more information about both of these, and about the controversy, in Depictions of Muhammad - but none surrounding this one. One may as well provide a link to Hijab from an image of Britney Spears.Proabivouac 06:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

There is manifestly no consensus to include the image in this article; removing it does not harm the article in any material way (as it would if the article were about the rebuilding of the Kaaba); and (sad but true) there is no willingness to compromise by placing the image in a linked article. Thus the best approach to removing the inaccuracy you have identified -- and the most obvious one, if I may add -- is simply to remove the image and the caption. BYT 13:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Proav here. Also this caption is sort of "weak". If you're trying to tell people that images should not be removed, include that as a hidden text comment, and semi-protect the article if there's a problem, that is it. Just remove that part of the caption. --Matt57 13:34, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Funny, I'd long though that the best and most obvious approach to removing an inaccuracy is to remove the inaccuracy.

BYT, would you have any objection to including a 1315 illustration of the Kaaba which does not show Muhammad, but only the kiswah being lifted to reveal the doors and masonry beneath, as they appeared at that time? Would you agree that it would be informative?Proabivouac 19:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Add category

{{editprotected}} I wish to add Category:Conversion of non-Muslim places of worship into mosques Chesdovi 13:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. SlimVirgin 19:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed image addition

I would like to include this image in the Location and physicial attributes section.Proabivouac 21:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

This is an excellent image, I wonder why it wasnt added before. Thanks for digging it up! Pretty interesting as well. --Matt57 21:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm…it was removed last year as "suspicious", but without any corresponding discussion or objections. The original image is here and was created by a Misplaced Pages editor using photoshop, supposedly from an older original. I would definitely prefer to find the original, and use it if we can. Otherwise, we have no way of verifying that these details are accurate (though I have no reason to doubt it.)Proabivouac 22:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I've written a message to the uploader here, I hope we can find the origin of information for these images. --Matt57 11:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Unprotected

I've unprotected and added the warning as discussed. SlimVirgin 22:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, as you're still providing the adult supervision around here, would you object to the removal of "For more information on this image, please see Depictions of Muhammad" from the caption, per this discussion above? It is as if we were to link Oh, God! to Idolatry in Judaism in order to combat potential misconceptions that the creators were following Jewish teachings: an OR-ish creation of controversy where none (outside of Misplaced Pages) exists and an inappropriately reader-confrontational use of links.

The warning looks fine, by the way. Very matter-of-fact and unobtrusive.Proabivouac 22:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say that with the warning at the top, it's perhaps not so necessary to link to that article in the caption too, though I also think it does no harm to leave it there. If it's to stay in the caption, it might be better to say "For information on why this image might be regarded as offensive, see ..." SlimVirgin 22:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

We already have a warning that mention that we sometimes include images that might be offensive to some. The disclaimer which every page link to make the reader aware that "Misplaced Pages contains many different images, some of which are considered objectionable or offensive by some readers.". There is no need for this "warning" at the top of the article, as it is redundant, and if we are going to warn readers about everything in our articles that could possibly be seen as offensive, nearly all our articles would be filled with such warnings. One example is that it is not just images of Muhammad that is considered offensive by ultraconservative Muslims. -- Karl Meier 06:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I think, in principle at least, that such warnings are appropriate. It's a way to have it both ways. It helps people to choose what they want to see. Censorship is bad, choice is good. Just like movie 'censorship' - cutting/banning is poor form in an open society, on the other hand, people appreciate being informed about what they are about to see (violence, nudity, etc). The warning is so small that IMO any attempt to remove it could be considered a form of trolling. Just my opinion. Merbabu 06:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

You both have good points; I'm still thinking about it.

For now, I'd like to ask, what is the point of linking again to Depictions of Muhammad? Yes, the phrase "depiction of Muhammad" is here, but what value does the link add? The phrase is transparent and doesn't need to be explained, while those for whom the warning is presumably intended will hate that article more than anything which exists here. Indeed, we have already seen one vandal (since blocked) who moved from blanking the image here to blanking that entire page, almost certainly by following one or the other unneccesary link.Proabivouac 08:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Merbabu: We will have to include a lot of warnings then, and I don't see why the warning that we already have should not be sufficient. How many times are we going to warn people against Misplaced Pages and it's lack of censorship? Politically I largely support the Danish People's party, and I and other people supporting that party most like feel that the criticism that has been raised regarding DPP has been largely unfair and sometimes rather offensive. Can I have a "this article include criticism" on the top of the article, to warn me and others that large agree with the policies of DPP against an article that include content we might very well object to and feel offended by? Or how about a function where I can click and turn the "criticism" section into a "praise" section? -- Karl Meier 08:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Your first sentence refers to a "warning we already have". Which warning? Do you mean the "Please note that this article contains a depiction of Muhammad." which you removed? Is there another warning? It is not clear to me what you are now referring too. As for your reasoning about criticism of political parties and some kind of button, i think you are getting off track and is also unclear - let's keep analogies relevant and reasonable. --Merbabu 08:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It is the warning that I quote above, which is from the disclaimer that is included on every single page on Misplaced Pages: "Misplaced Pages contains many different images, some of which are considered objectionable or offensive by some readers.". -- Karl Meier 08:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, would you agree to include similar warnings on other pages that include content that some readers might object to or find offensive? Would you support me including a similar warning on the Danish People's Party article? -- Karl Meier 08:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

On other articles? Possibly yes - but, i haven't given it much thought yet. In this case here it strikes me as a good faith gesture that supports the no-censorship policy and will possibly assist in preventing the tiring removal/reinsertion of such 'offensive' pics. As for the specific question of political party pages I've already commented on that analogy. Perhaps you can explain its relevance. --Merbabu 08:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it support the no censorship policy to include redundant apologies everywhere for our lack of censorship. Misplaced Pages is not censured and it is being mentioned on every page that we include images that might be offensive to some readers. That should be enough. Also, as I understand you, your position on this issue is that we should use a different approach on articles regarding Islam (and religion in general?) than we use on articles regarding political parties (and articles regarding politics in general?). If my understanding of your position is correct, then my question is why do you believe that we should use a different approach to articles when editing Islam and religion, then we have when editing articles regarding for example politics and DPP? The policies we are editing these articles according to are the same. -- Karl Meier 10:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I like this warning because it also links to Depictions of Muhammad which shows that there are many other images of Muhammad too so they should not remove it and not be shocked by seeing these images. --Matt57 11:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I am puzzled why this discussion is taking place here. There was a centralized discussion on the inclusion of depictions of Muhammad, and the consensus was that such images are appropraite. If some editors believe that a warning should be added to all articles containing images of Muhammad, they should suggest this first on Talk:Muhammad. Beit Or 17:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that. -- Karl Meier 22:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

As do I. I requested full protection of the article again. --Strothra 22:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The warning is intended to steer potentially offended editors away from reading further, or if they do, to leave them with the responsibility for having done so. However, I am concerned that it will have the unintended effect of cuing and facilitating vandalism.Proabivouac 22:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac's question

I wanted to respond in depth to Pro's question:

BYT, would you have any objection to including a 1315 illustration of the Kaaba which does not show Muhammad, but only the kiswah being lifted to reveal the doors and masonry beneath, as they appeared at that time? Would you agree that it would be informative?

• Pro, if consensus existed for it, I'd support putting it in. If, however, there was no consensus, and if it consistently polarized the talk page, if it led to frequent bouts of trauma with people attempting to access the article, and if it basically destabilized the encyclopedia and kept me from real work because it was necessary to take part in perpetually hair-splitting debates like this one, I'd say leave it out. But read on.

• Now then.

• Some editors act as though these kinds of judgment calls are unique to articles about Islam.

• They're not.

• Some people act as though the word "editor" meant nothing more than "provacateur."

• It shouldn't.

• This effort of yours has consensus now, Pro.

• It is also, let us be frank, a provocation. (BYT's Michael Corleone impression:) You insult my intelligence when you claim otherwise.

• But the word "editor" itself implies a certain maturity that I had hoped you possessed.

• The very word "editor" implies a certain judiciousness and a discretion and, here at WP, a presumed willingness to work on behalf of, not in fury against, the average reader.

• This is not an occasional provocation. It is a systemic provocation.

• Do you and Matt and Karl and Arrow provoke Christians about their "censorship" of alternate theories concerning Jesus' domestic status -- at Jesus.?

• Do you and Matt and Karl and Arrow provoke Israeli nationalists about their "censorship" of reports of casual contemporary racism, or of military forces attacking unarmed women and children -- at Zionism?

• Do you and Matt and Karl and Arrow provoke the "Israel lobby" about their "censorship" of efforts to report on their influence on American foreign policy at Israel, an influence that is now alienating large chunks of the intelligentsia within the US the academic and policy community?

• No. All of that would be "insensitive."

• You and Matt and Karl and Arrow and the rest are, let's face it, much more likely to work on pages like this. And then lecture me and a billion other people about the importance of freedom of speech.

• This is not a question of informativeness. This is a campaign. It wasn't happening three years ago. Now it is.

• Happy hunting. Looks like there is now consensus to put this latest, incredibly incendiary, incredibly insensitive, image in.

• Go for it.

• Please don't say I block consensus or make it up as I go along.

• Please don't lecture me about freedom of speech.

• And please do watch that reversion count. You get three within a 24-hour period, even if you don't like what the other person is saying, and even if the other person is clueless about 3RR. BYT 14:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

BrandonYusufToropov: This page is for discussing how the article should be developed. It is not a forum for your bad faith accusations or requests I and a number of other editors should go and "reveal" how the evil Zionists attack defenseless Muslim women and children and how they conspire to control the US government. On the subject however, I am quite surprised to see that you now consider the image which was painted by a Muslim to be "incredibly incendiary, incredibly insensitive". Just two days ago you mentioned that you didn't find it offensive. What happened? -- Karl Meier 16:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a convenient fiction. If these comics as linked from his user page are any guide, BYT opposes the depiction of any animate creature.Proabivouac 23:34, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, so whats your point? --Matt57 16:34, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, that was a yes or no question. Interesting though that one would support the censorship of something because it is offensive about one thing, but while supporting the uncensoring of something on a different topic. How convenient. --Strothra 17:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

<BYT here, quoting from my talk page, where Matt asked Karl's question:>

Here you said that the image of Muhammad was not offensive. Then you said the opposite thing, saying the image was "incredibly incendiary, incredibly insensitive". Can you please explain your comments? --Matt57 04:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

<and I answered:>

Happy to help you out, Matt. Some people might find a given image incendiary, and thus inappropriate for a given article, without finding it personally offensive.

A doctored photo of "Contemporary American Religious Leader X" with blood dripping from his mouth, for instance, might be something I find unpleasant, but the image itself would not personally offend me.

The image would, however, be inappropriate for inclusion at the article Contemporary American Religious Leader X, in my view. Not because it "offends" me as a person, but because it is over-the-top, coarse, and fundamentally insensitive to the realities of the world in which we live, a world in which people view direct attacks on their spiritual figures as attacks on themselves.

There was a time when encyclopedias did not make those kinds of attacks, or even risk the appearance of doing so.

Note, however, that the same image might be quite appropriate in an article such as Political cartoon. It's all about context.

Experienced editors learn to make these kinds of judgment calls. I hope you will eventually come to appreciate their importance. BYT 11:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It's quite silly to equate this image with a cartoon of Muhammad with blood dripping from his mouth, which in most cases would indeed be inappropriate. However, had a Meccan pagan painted the Kaaba in 631, and shown Muhammad before it in caricature with his mouth dripping with blood, we should be eager to display it despite the problems, because it would be the oldest picture of the Kaaba (and of Muhammad,) and obviously the most notable. This illustration, more than merely respectful, is reverent and devotional, depicting a plainly hagiographic post-mortem tale in which Muhammad is nothing if not wise, trusted and prophetic even before his prophecy, following Abraham in building the Kaaba and setting within it the Black Stone. Your objections are on target, if the target is a straw man. This image you cannot contest at all. It may be the starkest illustration yet of the incompatibility between religious considerations and encyclopedic goals: the contemporaneity of the illustrator and the Kaaba isn't contested, it is obvious that the illustrator had seen the Kaaba up close with his own eyes (or copied it very closely from someone who had,) it shows the Kaaba in intimate detail, it is the oldest illustration we have, the illustration accompanied a famous work by a famous scholar, was very likely produced under his direction, it illustrates a famous story which is recounted in the text and reflects wonderfully upon its human subject. Everything is right. Who can blame you for substituting something else (contemporary polemic caricatures of religious figures) to argue against? Against the image we are supposed to be discussing, there is no good argument.Proabivouac 06:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge

For the record, I am opposed to the idea of merging the articles of Black Stone and Kaaba. The Black Stone is a significant object in its own right, and it is appropriate to have a separate article about it. --Elonka 20:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I think its better to have its own article too, because this is something very significant like you said, so I agree.--Matt57 01:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a section here about the Black Stone, at least? My thinking was that this a very important part of the Kaaba as well as being its own subject. Black Stone isn't so large that it couldn't be that section (and would be smaller once duplicated information was removed.) In principle, there would be a Black Stone article would a very detailed treatment, but the existence of that article in its current state isn't a good reason not to have this general information here.Proabivouac 01:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree there should be something significant on the Black Stone, e.g. a picture of the stone in the Location and Physical attributions section (since thats where its being talked about). I think the article contains enough of a short mention of the stone and the picture should do the needful. --Matt57 02:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

• oppose merge per above. They are different topics--Sefringle 03:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
• oppose merge I think Elonka summed it perfectly. Dman727 03:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Well, this is obviously going nowhere. I didn't place the template, actually, just asked on talk.Proabivouac 10:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The need to compromise

A couple of editors seem to be saying that they must have things their way entirely. The image must stay; the caption link to Depictions of Muhammad must go; the show/hide option is unacceptable; and the warning must go too.

This isn't reasonable. Neither side can have everything it wants. Therefore, please continue discussing which compromise is best. I've protected the article again in the meantime. SlimVirgin 23:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The point here though is that any compromise is not rational because it is not what has been done in other articles repeatedly. This same issue has been discussed before and resolved in the only possible way - according to Wiki policy that does not allow censorship. A warning is ridiculous - why don't you try to propose a policy to place a warning at the top of every article that contains something potentially offensive and see how far that flies? Why should this article be any different from all others? If it's offensive then so be it. There is no policy against offensive material, if fact the tendency of Wiki has been in favor of its inclusion - ie the use of certain pornographic images and profanity. As long as it does not violate standards of inclusion that are already established, this discussion is pointless and interrupting progress that we could be making on the article. --Strothra 23:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Despite the inconsistency with WP practice elsewhere, I'm not opposed to a warning in principle. My question is, will it really keep the potentially offended from reading on, or will it only cue them that there is something in the article to vandalize? If the actions of active editors are indicative of what readers will do - I doubt they are, actually, but as this premise of "representation" is the only justification for this debate to begin with - the editors who've expressed the most offense don't avoid these pages at all, but hang around them looking for different ways to blank the images and keep the debate alive long past its rightful shelf life. It seems not anything about the visual appearance of the images themselves (cf. Kryptonite,) but the fact that they are being displayed that is causing the offense; this is plain in BYT and ALM's objections, at least. If so, then this message will cause the very same offense (per BYT, communal humiliation/provocation) to any who read it.

If, on the other hand, the appearance of this warning means that editors who then continue through the article are individually responsible for what they see, for whatever reactions they might have to it, and most importantly for whatever disruptive behavior the might then undertake, then this warning is a small price to pay.

In sum, a compromise that contributes to stability and prevents disruption is worthwhile insofar as it does, but one which unintentionally encourages disruption and/or facilitates vandalism is undesirable. To take another example, were all these articles placed in a Category:Articles with depictions of Muhammad, vandals could simply stroll through the Cat membership. The same might be true of filter tags, depending on how these were technically accomplished.Proabivouac 01:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

How do you compromise on the issue of censorship? Cut the image in half? Photoshop a new head on Mohammed? Wiki policies are in place to address this question. The policy is WP:CENSOR and says that we dont censor based on the objections of being offended. However I'll answer on how you compromise. You compromise by showing only noteable, informative images in a respectful manner.Dman727 01:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

We do have the show/hide option. SlimVirgin 02:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Have those desiring the censor of the image expressed ANY support for the show/hide option? I'll support it with a default show if they'll agree to stop trying to censor wiki on the basis of Islamic taboo. So far the only option I've seen from the pro-censor folks is the complete removal of all Mohammed images for anyone and everyone. Naturally there is an option for those afraid of the image..simply change their browser to a different web page.Dman727 02:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The show/hide option is pretty silly. If the default mode is "hide", then this is censorship; if the default mode is "show", then people who are supposed to be offended by this image will see it and get offended, negating the very purpose of the show/hide option. The current applicable disclaimers state plainly that people use Misplaced Pages at their own risk; if someone has failed to read them before reading the article, then it's not our problem. Beit Or 21:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT, could you say what your view is of having a warning at the top of the page? Is it worth the trouble, will it be helpful, or is it likely only to inflame? SlimVirgin 01:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

A supermajority has already made a decision during the debate on the Muhammad page that it is indeed acceptable to include images of Muhammad, with no censorship and no warnings/apologies. The image that we are going to include here is also both highly topical and valuable to the article, and the consensus is to include it and not to censure it. -- Karl Meier 09:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's another option for a compromise. There is an altered version of the Muhammad image, where the face has been digitally blanked out. Let's use that image here at the article, and provide a link in the image caption, to the unaltered image. Would that make everyone happy? --Elonka 18:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The short answer is no. As a member of the ArbCom mentioned when responding to a request for arbitration that was filed regarding Muhammad: "Misplaced Pages is not censored - not even when you really, really want it to be." -- Karl Meier 20:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, blanking the face out would be a perfect example of censorship and violation of WP:NOT. Please also note that adding a warning to the top of the article is blatant violation of commonly accepted guidelines - ie Misplaced Pages:No disclaimers in articles. You must realize that people use Misplaced Pages at their own risk and that Wiki contains objectionable content, but does not provide disclaimers. Seriously, the inclusion of this image, as is, is perfectly in-line with policy. Any form of so called "compromise" here is unacceptable and violates the spirit and word of Wiki policy. --Strothra 20:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, Misplaced Pages:No disclaimers in articles covers this issue perfectly. Any "compromise" in the form of an inclusion of some sort of warning would be a violation of the applicable guidelines. Beit Or 21:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, no, we dont want to use altered images. You're willing to give in unreasonable demands. Thats wrong. You should understand this: there is no point in a compromise which results in the violation of Misplaced Pages policies and if you want to read detail on that, read this. Stick to policies and ignore everything else or you'll end up in a messy or chaotic place because then every other rule can be violated too on the basis of a "compromise". We are fine now. This matter should be considered closed and hopefully not reopened like it was here. Further recurrent removals of Mohammed images should be dealt swiftly with semi-protections and warnings and if necessary, blocks. I mean, we're sorry but these are our policies and if anyone doesnt respect them, they need to be blocked. --Matt57 21:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt57, no one should be blocked; that would be unfair, insensitive and wrong. What should happen is that all affected pages should be either semi-protected or fully-protected into the indefinite future, and open-ended mediations should be initiated for all affected pages, which end if and only if and when there is a consensus to remove all depictions. Remember, our goal here isn't just to "create an encyclopedia": it's to prove we're not discriminating against anyone. Not everyone understands this. At the end of the day, readers and content are just not all that important compared to the religious sentiments of editors to this talk page. Keeping this debate alive - even if there is no purpose per se - is the very least we can do to show that we're listening.Proabivouac 09:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC) Sorry, for whatever reason I was thinking there were more than two editors complaining here. My mistake. Support solution proposed by Matt57 above.Proabivouac 09:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, that's the only way this farce can end. --Strothra 10:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, there is nothing to add. Beit Or 18:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Views from other scholars on the image issue

As another point of view here... I was attending an academic conference (on games and society) this weekend, and had the opportunity to go to a talk on "Computer games in Islamic culture." Which has nothing directly to do with this particular debate, but I did get the opportunity to meet some Muslims there, and I asked them about our current issue. The people that I talked to were generally Sunni, well-educated, highly-literate, and their views relatively liberal (it was, after all, a gaming conference). For example, despite the ban on "images of living figures," they were okay on taking photographs of family, seeing animated figures in computer games, etc.

They had heard of Misplaced Pages, had a positive impression of it, and were interested when I brought up the idea of articles about the Kaaba and Black Stone. Through all this, they were nodding and smiling and engaged. Then when I got to the point of mentioning "some 14th century artwork of Muhammad lifting the Black Stone into place," they actually recoiled like a physical blow. One woman laughed nervously, and said that if she were to see such an image, she would feel as though she had just committed blasphemy. I asked her to try and better explain the issue, and she said that part of her prayers are to keep her mind free of any particular image, and just to focus on the indefinable concept of God. But if she sees an image of Muhammad, or any prophet, that it would change the nature of her prayers, and her thoughts would then unwillingly form the image of the painting she had seen, even if she did not wish it. And that since the painting could not possibly be a true image of Muhammad, it would then somehow corrupt her own thoughts. It was startling to me, to see how this highly-educated and very open-minded woman, a trained engineer, suddenly became so distressed.

Her reaction, and those of the other scholars I spoke to, are making me rethink my position on this issue. I did bring up to them the quandary that we have about how we want to provide a source of knowledge, but we also do not want to offend, but neither do we want to censor. None of them had a good answer. Some, as librarians, grudgingly agreed that it's important to keep access to knowledge, and that it's wrong to simply remove books from a library simply because someone may find them offensive. Some had ambivalent feelings about the "show/hide filter" option, saying that even then they would be uncomfortable with knowing that the image was on the page, even if it was hidden from them.

The discussions gave me much more insight into the problem, and my own feeling now is that at a very minimum, we must post a warning on the page, to give a good-faith heads-up to those who are reading a Misplaced Pages article, that there may be an image further down that they might find as shocking as some of us might find the images on a shock site such as goatse.cx. I personally still believe that it's important that we provide the images here on Misplaced Pages for those who wish them for scholarship, but we must be responsible in how we provide them. --Elonka 18:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you were correct when you said that this was not relevant. Please restrict your discussion here to being about the article. Personal matters are better expressed via e-mail or editor discussion pages. --Strothra 18:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright. And where do we draw the line? Do we put a warning up on Xenu saying that L. Ron Hubbard says that anyone that learns of it before their time will die of pneumonia? Do we put warnings up on pages that criticize religion, on the ground that someone might find it offensive? See Misplaced Pages:Content disclaimer. To be blunt, it's not our job to protect people from themselves. --L 20:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, thank you for your post. It's a very interesting perspective, and what the woman said about prayer certainly makes sense. I wonder whether we could encourage some of our Muslim editors to write an essay about it for Misplaced Pages that explains their feelings. SlimVirgin 03:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

ALM has done it already here. Either the images stay or they move out, we have to decide one way or the other. We cant keep debating on this forever. This has to be decided once and for all. Or are you saying its okay to debate every time someone removes a picture? --Matt57 03:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

As it happens, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a grievance theater. Beit Or 18:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, Thanks those are some interesting insights. I cannot agree though that we should modify the image. Technically I don't see how it would make a difference, after all you'll still be able to see his body and I suspect that it won't satisfy the offendees objections.

In terms of compromise, well compromise is not required with those who would do wrong and by wrong I mean blantant censorship (in this case). If the 9/11 terrorist had came to us and told us they were going destroy two towers, we would not reach a compromise that says they can destroy just one tower simply because its their religious duty. Sometimes wrong is wrong. In this case, Islam is wrong about censorship and its simple as that. For the entire rest of the world to embrace censorship because of a handful of objectors is wrong. Still...I'm sympathetic to the non-radical Muslims who feel offended by the picture, but thats as far as it goes. Free Speech and open knowledge is a blessing and for those who feel otherwise that is their problem to solve or get over, not everyone elses.

I'll support language at the top of the page that indicates a Mohimmed picture is below(but not a "warning"). Also would support a show/hide option with a default show. As I said, the problem with Mohammed pictures lies with offendees, not with the rest of the word. Dman727 03:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Elonka for your understanding. I am always open for compromises. If we can hide those images so that Muslims do not see them and one has to press a button to see them. Furthermore, we put a warning on the button. Then it can be accepted by me. We should give reader option to choose. I have list of people who come and leave wikipeda because of those images. We should solve this problem. --- A. L. M. 08:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but your list includes several transparent sockpuppets and otherwise disruptive editors. If anything, it is evidence that we are not losing anyone valuable, and may not be losing anyone at all.Proabivouac 09:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

When I joined wikipedia, I also reverted few times on OBL. I had recieved WP:3RR warnings and I was also near to leave. My case was just like them. However, then few poeple compromised on the change I wish to introduce. Hence I stay here. Although, I do not edit as much as I should here (because of lack of time), but we could save many people by solving this pictures dispute. May be they have more time then me and they help wikipedia much better. --- A. L. M. 09:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

ALM, you've double listed editors who are sockpuppets of one another.Proabivouac 09:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I have also not added many editors. However, could you change listing of those editors who are socket puppits in one line instead of as sperate editors. Thanks in advance. --- A. L. M. 09:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, wait a minute: Just the other night, I was wondering whether Matt57's mention of Osama bin Laden in the proposed policy page wasn't just a little off-key…but now you're repeating it. you're saying that these reverts on OBL () are somehow similar ("My case was just like them") to blanking depictions of Muhammad?Proabivouac 10:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not know if I understand you? However, I wish to say that he is alleged to be involved in 9/11 attacks. I successfully able to change the article after some discussion and that make me stay here. I strongly believe that if we are able to compromise on image issue we will be able to have few more editors creating new article and improving wikipedia. Hence my case was at that time was like them. They need someone to listen to them, like I needed. --- A. L. M. 10:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

If blatant censorship is going to encourage more editors to join wiki, then I have to question whether we really want those editors to join at all. The last thing we need is more people who want to censor and hide knowledge for the entire rest of the world based on their own particular views. Respectfully, we need less pro-censor editors, not more. Dman727 23:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You do not know what you get until you get it. I have enriched with meeting (making friends) atheist, Christians and other. I understand my religion and world around me, much better by discussions with them. If you (or anyone else) wish to have one type of people in wikipedia then it will be an extremely bad place to be. It will be colorful when many people from all sides join with different ideas. --- A. L. M. 10:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

wiki is not a discussion group. Its an encyclopedia project and most could care less what an editors religion is. I stand by my suggestion that the last thing that Wiki needs is new editors bent on censorship - at the same time that you suggest that censorship is what would attract them. I'll let you have the last word on this as we've drifted off topic and are now into WP:SOAP. Dman727 14:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad images policy

I've attemped to wrap up this Muhammad images issue once and for all and left a note on the Muhammad page here. --Matt57 03:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I have nominated it for deletion. -- A. L. M.

This dispute can only be solved with a understanding on part of everyone whether Muslims or Non-Muslims.The Muslims have to realize that non-Muslims have to be given an impartial and non-radical insight into an issue of such nature to make them realize the impact of such critical issues on the people who have little or no knowledge about such issues. The non-Muslims have to bear in mind that whatever is contributed of religious importance (related to whatever religion) then it should at least be in accordance with the basic principles, values and practices of that particular religion. This will ensure authenticity of content present on wiki.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.249.34 (talk • contribs)

That's absurd, we're supposed to grant censorship to Muslims when we allow pornography on Wiki against the wishes of feminist and religious groups? Why does this one group deserve special treatment? --Strothra 10:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree that is absurb unreasonable. There is zero reason why everyone else should be held accountable to Islamic taboo. Dman727 15:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, 124.29.249.34, you have offered us some useful wisdom. And Strothra and Dman, please review WP:CIVIL and try to avoid characterizing other editors' good faith suggestions as "absurd." If you disagree, fine, but disagreeing in a rude way is not going to help us find a middle-ground here. --Elonka 15:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I can see how absurb could be construed to be uncivil. Nonetheless, the suggestion is unreasonable. I will amend my remark according.Dman727 20:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I told you before Elonka, there is not going to be a middle ground which violates Misplaced Pages policies. --Matt57 16:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Anon, the issue is simple. Misplaced Pages policies cant be compromised on to reach middle grounds and understandings. Thats not what this site is for. Its not about Muslims or non-muslims, its about rejecting censorship and adhering to policies. --Matt57 16:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, then "unreasonable." Either way, this whole discussion is a violation of WP:POINT. No compromise can be accomplished without violating existing policies and guidelines, thus certain editors seem to be interrupting the ability to make progress on this article in order to pursue this point. --Strothra 03:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that a reasonable compromise would be to use an image of the Black Stone, instead of the one with Muhammad. --Elonka 18:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

They're completely different, and not substitutes for one another at all. We can use both of them (and we would be already, had my ill-fated merger idea gained any support.) One is a 1) contemporary 2) photograph of 3) the black stone in its setting; the other a 1) medieval 2) illustration of 3) the Quraysh raising the stone before the Kaaba. That anyone would suggest such an equivalence shows how far afield we've drifted from thinking about content.Proabivouac 19:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Where's the old consensus?

Does anyone know the link for the old consensus formed which agreed to have the Muhammad images? I want to close this affair once and for all. --Matt57 11:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Here it is . I also post it here below
page flooding redacted, see link as providedProabivouac 22:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Great. Next time there's a question on the article Muhammad, we'll all know exactly where to look. BYT 12:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This is consensus for a small question. I'm talking about a general consensus for keeping Muhammad images in. --Matt57 14:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That small question is answer to this dispute. I do not know why you are declining to close the issue now once for all? -- A. L. M. 14:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Why didnt BYT link to this debate, which came later? The Poll BYT linked has this: Caution: the above summary has been substantially qualified/altered since the poll was opened. and has a link to the next poll which I just linked. --Matt57 15:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That's right, Matt57, the description was altered after the signatures were placed. It's meaningless except as an example of how not to conduct a poll.Proabivouac 19:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Consensus can change. Though I appreciate the good-faith nature of the discussions from last year and stretching into February, I see that most of those editors aren't even involved in the discussion anymore, and we have many new voices. Also, please keep in mind that mediation is never binding. It is a way for the participants to try and find an acceptable compromise which they can 'voluntarily choose or not choose to follow. See Misplaced Pages:Mediation. It's not something that can be decided upon by one group of editors, and then used as a club to beat up anyone else who comes along. --Elonka 15:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

So you think we should keep debating on this issue forever and get into a long discussion every time a Muhammad image is removed? --Matt57 16:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, many of the editors involved in discussions back then (including myself) simply grew tired of participating in endlessly repetitive and draining argumentation, and went off to work on other articles. the mediation discussion itself was highly geared towards the situation on the Muhammad article. i haven't observed the discussion on this article at any great length, but the image does appear to be topical. that doesn't mean we cannot employ one of the measures suggested above (such as the warning, which would parallel use of {{spoiler}}). ITAQALLAH 16:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I should add that a warning atop the page is not censorship. It may be unencyclopedic (as are spoiler warnings), it may violate Misplaced Pages:No disclaimers in articles, and it may not help anything (I doubt it will), but it isn't censorship, and it wouldn't make the article any less informative. This is the only proposed compromise of which this is true.Proabivouac 23:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Consensus can certainly change. However in this case I have not seen evidence that this is the case. Rather I see some new faces supporting the original consensus (such as myself), and those opposed to the original consensus repeating their arguments. Consensus can change is certainly something that needs to be taken to heart, however its not meant to be a license for continuously repeating the same debate until the other side gets what it wants either. This is a well worn and well debated topic and frankly, nothing fundamental has changed that indicates a new consensus is on the horizon. Dman727 20:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that the show/hide option is reasonable. It still makes the image available in an uncensored form, but removes it one simple mouse-click away. As for the Depictions of Muhammad page, I don't think that would be a good solution for that page, since the title clearly states that there will be depictions, so the images should be left on the page. But for here at Kaaba, I would support either using SlimVirgin's show/hide solution, or replacing the "Muhammad placing the stone" image with a simple image of the Black Stone itself, and then linking to Depictions of Muhammad via a "See also". --Elonka 22:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, hiding something in plain brown wrappers behind the counter is of course a form of censorship, even if what is inside is preserved intact. As such, it violates our policies, which expressly forbid censorship. Besides the fact that this solution is supremely unlikely to achieve consensus here, local consensus cannot override core policy.

More to the point - and this is the point of the policy, after all - it makes the article as displayed less informative, just as it would if we adopted a similar solution for controversial text. If we are to facilitate anyone censoring their own displays, that's fine, but when this becomes hindering the displays of others, it's unacceptable. We need to show some respect for the sensibilities of the majority.

Were an image not notable, topical and informative, we wouldn't hide it, but remove it altogether. The fact that we're talking about hiding it concedes that we are no longer concerned with our mission to inform. We need to show some respect for the goals of the academic enterprise in general and of this encyclopedia in particular.

From a scholarly perspective, there is nothing at all disreputable about this historic image, or about others like it which are curated, disseminated and displayed by the very most prestigious libraries and universities.Proabivouac 22:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes the show/hide option is censoring information and its a usability issue. To me this is as bad as not having the image. --Matt57 23:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I have redacted the pasting of a cherry-picked section of the mediation. Otherwise we might be tempted to paste such sections as this and this, and eventually this talk page becomes unusable.Proabivouac 23:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link Proav, it looks like the majority consensus was for "human depiction with no veil at the top AND multiple other images". Thats what we've agreed with here too. --Matt57 23:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Even so, there's only one image containing Muhammad, and there's no reason to have it at the top, where a current photograph is most appropriate. The ones I've seen where Muhammad is veiled are of lesser antiquity, do not depict any particular story and show the Kaaba in much less detail.Proabivouac 02:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry yes what I meant is, most editors agreed to have multiple unveiled images of Muhammad. I agree with you there. The placement is a smaller issue. --Matt57 14:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

we all know that wiki's primary objective is to provide authentic knowledge. This knowledge should be totally free from baseless facts not in total accordance with the topic about which this knowledge is being provided. secondly the effect of this knowlegde on its consumers is another important aspect which cannot be totally overlooked. what the viewers / consumers want is authenticity. Authenticity can only be gauranteed when contributers of knowledge make only those contributions which comply to basic principles of that particular topic. In this case contributers of this article know that they are providing information about a building which is held in the highest esteem in one of religions.This makes it all the more important that the content of this contribution should at least be in accordance with the basic principles of that particular religion to make this contribution authentic enough. Because viewers take this article as authentic and of importance so providing them the true image of facts should be the prime focus of article contributers / editors. The image in discussion has no authenticity what so ever. The contributer of this image must have seen its source and contributed it without seeing if it is authentic enough in context of the article topic it is suppose to support. why a compromise is not being reached on this issue merely shows the mis understandings between both the suppoters and offendees alike. The supporters are not ready to accept the significance of this issue, its impact and the confusions it is going to create or has already created among its viewers. To them the policies of wiki are more significant and rigid / unadaptable as compared to the basic principles / values of any faith or religion that articles of wiki project. The offendees want that knowlegede related to any faith should be in total accordance with its principles and values.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.250.2 (talk • contribs)

I am not certain what you mean by "authentic." Misplaced Pages does not aim to be an authentic Islamic site, actually; quite the opposite, as that would violate our neutrality policy. There is no requirement that "contributers of knowledge make only those contributions which comply to basic principles of that particular topic." Let us avoid such generalized discussions, as they go nowhere - you have stated that what is purported to be a 1315 illustration of the Kaaba is inauthentic. Here we do have a standard definition of "inauthentic" to work with, and that would be a compelling argument, were it true. Do you have any evidence to that effect? Below the image is a description of its provenance. Is that description inaccurate?Proabivouac 06:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

124 Anon, no, what you said is wrong "content of this contribution should at least be in accordance with the basic principles of that particular religion to make this contribution authentic enough" - Misplaced Pages doesnt do that. It doesnt "bow" in respect to any article. Its there to provide information on all articles and treat them the same. --Matt57 14:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

What is gathered from this and above discussion is that at one end wiki's contributers and editiors are not bothered about authenticity of the content and at the other end claim that wiki is a source of knowledge. At one time wiki's policy is to be neutral and on the same time it is depicting something in form of image supported by the claim that shia scholars have no objections in this regard-arent shia scholars muslims? dont they follow islam? if yes then religion is being brought in support of argument by wiki itself to form basis for supporting its content. Now if someone else from Islam religion points out a fact supported by vast majority of Islamic scholars then this point is rejected on the basis of being too much radical and religious in nature. Regarding the source of this image, something that happened almost 700 years before this image or painting was made, is an indicator of in-authenticity in itself. If anyone on wiki reads about this event in detail then they will come to know that this picture is an in-accurate depiction of facts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.250.2 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

That purported "inauthenticity" is your original research. One might as easily observe that the story it depicts is "inauthentic:" both would be inauthentic eyewitness accounts of Muhammad's life, which neither claims to be. Like the story, the image is attributed to a specific source and date; that is the only claim we are making here. Additionally, even were the illustration of the story wildly inaccurate (I can see no contradiction between what is shown and what is alleged to have occurred), the illustration of the Kaaba is verifiably not, and is the oldest and by far most notable image on this article.Proabivouac 06:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

When the issue is so contentious, why not remove the image in question for good, especially when offensive to the majority of the Muslim population and the probable readers of the article. --Altruism 09:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Because it would deprive our readers of topical information.Proabivouac 09:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

If your post is in reply to mine, then: What topical information would this sole picture convey? Absolutely nothing which can't be conveyed by words. --Altruism 10:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Then I invite you to write here the summary of that image in words, neglecting no detail whatsoever, such that a reader could duplicate the image from your description alone. There is a definition of information, actually.Proabivouac 10:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, this is not something which is most needed, without which the article would be violated. The picture only conveys a minor part of the history of the Kaaba. It was repaired several times, including the recent one by Muhammad ibn Ladin, if 'm not wrong. Most importantly The religion of Islam, whose sub-article this is, explicitly prohibits the depiction of animate forms, the exceptions being for science and research etc. but is even more stringent when in the case of Prophet Muhammad, with absolutely no exceptions whatsoever. --Altruism 11:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

No, this is not a "sub-article" of Islam. This article is about an actual building which existed (and still exists) in history. This building was important before there were any Muslims, and would still be important even if Islam were no longer practiced.Proabivouac 12:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, note that Islamic texts are not completely opposed to the depictions of Muhammad. It depends on who and what you consult. Sunni Muslims are generally against the practice whereas Shiite Muslims are more lax and have created many pieces of art including his likeness. --Strothra 01:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I meant: "Isn't the article a part of Islam or WikiProject Islam?" Please have a look at the top of the page. Its included in that category.

Yes this is basically a black stone, believed to have come from heaven, during Prophet Ibrahim's (Abraham) time. He along with his older son, the Prophet Ishmael, made it a symbol of monotheism, may be under the direction from God. Did you know that there was a pre-Islamic practice of people circumambulating around the Kaaba in the nude!!! A year or two before Prophet Muhammad's death, the Prophet's dear friend and father-in-law Abu Bakr Siddiq announced that the practice was being prohibited. Christians and Jews were still free to worship near the Kaaba!!! This was how liberal the Prophet and his companions were!!! The Kaaba was repaired several times. One of it happened to by the Prophet Muhammad, who before the revelation of the Qur'an to him, was chose as the best person in town (perhaps, all of Arabia) to do that, due to his qualities.

Do note that at least 95% of the Muslims vehemently oppose the depiction of the Prophet Muhammad. There are authentic proofs (Sahih Hadith) quoting the Prophet himself!!! The Prophet explicitly prohibited his depiction, to not make him another object of worship, as was unfortunately done, in the case of some of the earlier prophets. Even the Hashishiyaan (the Assasins) were a Shiite sect!!! Where do we draw the line. Not everyone who calls himself a Shia becomes one. Paintings may have been introduced by some such people. Anyways WP is definitely no place for offensive images, slander etc.

The World Book Encyclopaedia states "Even non-Muslim scholars do not doubt the sincerity of Prophet Muhammad in his mission." "The prophet was promised power, wealth.... by the pagan Meccans for stopping his preaching, but would have none of it." These statements go on to show how simple and humble the Prophet Muhammad was. Little wonder that he wanted people to worship none but God. Thanking You, Altruism 05:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

wiki itself claims on the "Depictions of MUHAMMAD (Peace Be Upon Him)" page that SOME shiite scholars are lax about images/paintings rest the majority is strictly against it. Here in this regard wiki is supporting its content on the basis of a small minority of a specific religion and on the same time rejecting the view of majority of scholars and followers of that same religion. Also when religion has no room in wiki (as claimed by those who support having this image) then why the opinion of a minority of shiite scholars is being given weight and importance on this issue. moreover the most significant Rebuilding of Kaaba was by PROPHET ABRAHAM (May Peace Be Upon Him)which is authenticated in the Holy Quran itself. This particular picture is related to only one of the many renovations undertaken during different times. so why is this controversial image and contemptuous issue is being given so much importance in this article and much more important re-building being brushed aside.Ghulam muhammad21 05:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Your claim that the picture is included on the basis of " small minority of a specific religion" is simply false. The paiting is included on the basis that is is topical, noteable, historic and a tasteful painting. Furthermore, the majority of the worlds population, and the typical wiki reader is not offended in the slightest. We do not look to Islamic law on when to include wiki content. We look to wiki policy. See WP:CENSOR. Dman727 06:13, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not topical and being just a one-off case doesn't merit its inclusion here. The Kaaba was repaired several times, one among which happened to be by the Prophet Muhammad. Why does anybody insist on placing this image, but for the sole purpose of hurting sentiments. What is important here is that this is a niche article in Islam, which is highly unlikely to be read by non-Muslims. The minor bone of contention can be dealt with best, by removing it. --Altruism 08:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

"…which is highly unlikely to be read by non-Muslims."

Where did you get that idea?Proabivouac 08:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Its an idea. OK I'll re-phrase At least 80-90% of the readers (detailed readers) are likely to be Muslim. --Altruism 08:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Sole desire to hurt sentiments? Come on. I could make an equally compelling case that some want to censor it just to hurt sentiments. Neither is true imo. The article is written to inform and educate. I'm sympathetic that you find this very old and yes, topical painting offensive, however it is not practical nor possible to write an encylopedia that adheres to all the worlds religions and individual sensibilitys. On a personal note, there ALOT of things on wiki that I find offensive. For me, when I find something offensive I avoid it..I don't try to destroy it for everyone else. Dman727 08:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

"At least 80-90% of the readers (detailed readers) are likely to be non-Muslim."

Right. It's the English-language Misplaced Pages, so what else would you expect?

There are no "niche" articles in the sense you'd intended. Articles don't belong to any religious or ideological community, no matter what they're about.Proabivouac 08:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

What else do I make of the insistence of some users to include the image, come what may? Yes, the article and Misplaced Pages's policy's to inform and educate.This topical painting would be offensive (to most of the potential readers). And, at a time when the feeling of compatibility in both the worlds is at its trough, why do we need to hurt their sentiments? I agree Misplaced Pages may not exactly suit all our sensibilities and tastes. But when something is possible why can't we be a bit flexible instead of deliberately offending religious sentiments? --Altruism 08:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry! Just corrected my sentence to "80-90% are likely to be Muslim." --Altruism 08:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC) Yes, articles here don't belong to anybody or any religion, but most or all articles definitely concern one main topic. It is the "WikiProject Islam" in this case. --Altruism 08:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

There is lack of understanding among people who are supporting this image. some say it is topical. some cite minority shiite scholars to form basis of having this image. on the other hand the offendees are all of one view that it is prohibited, not very topical as it was one of the routine RENOVATION as compared to RE-BUILDING which actually took place at the time of PROPHET IBRAHIM (May Peace be Upon Him), and offensive to all Muslim viewers. Then what is the sense of having this sub-topic at all. People who say that it is related to Kaaba, well lots of other things are related to Kaaba as well. why choose this particular sub-topic just to offend people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghulam muhammad21 (talk • contribs)

"Then what is the sense of having this sub-topic at all."

Are you saying that the coverage of the episode itself is assigned too much weight in the text?Proabivouac 19:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Whether we like it or not, we need to have this sub-topic. The coverage of the issue that we are discussing about is scant, only a para, and was only one of the several repair efforts that took place from the time of the Prophet Abraham. --Altruism 06:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

True this sub-topic is of general relevance but the main point is why a renovation (just one of the several) is being given much weight then the actual re-building done by PROPHET ABRAHAM (May Peace Be Upon Him). Also when the general consenous is that this picture is offensive to the Muslim viewers then why there is so much support for it. While Britanica (which is supposed to be most authoritative) is quite reserved on image issue. Then why is wiki being such vocal and explicit about this issue. About the source of this image, i am looking for the actual book itself to find out the facts. What has already been gathered about this book from different sources is that this image might not even exist. same goes for many other images.124.29.250.2 07:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The image "might not even exist?"Proabivouac 07:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

i happened to meet some learned shiites and when asked about this picture, they were as surprised as we all are on this blasphemous issue. According to them no shiite scholar whether old or new has allowed any leverage on such issues of pictures related to HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (May Peace Be Upon Him and His Family). they also clarified that painting such pictures was a part of pre-Islamic persian culture, and after advent of Islam in persia, such works were strictly forbidden. so here wiki is actually supporting an in-authentic and truly blasphemous work whose reality is not really known whether it is actually depicting the captioned subject or not. it has already been said again and again that the source of this picture is shaddy, the picture itself is offensive and blasphemous, it provides no valuable knowledge but still people are supporting it. when it is said that this picture is un-Islamic, some say shiites support it(when in truth they dont) and support keeping it neglecting the vast majority against it. some say this article is general not related to Islam but related to architectures. If yes then why doesnt wiki paste pictures of tower of pisa on the statue of liberty page. why because wiki's contributers know it is irrelevant and wrong information. Now in this particular case, wiki's contributers are delibrately insisting on providing a blasphemous wrong and shaddy picture which has very little relevance to the actual topic and the issue it is claiming to portray. IS THIS NOT DOUBLE STANDARD ON PART OF WIKI. bringing religion in discussion whenever wiki wants and negating it when someone else mentions it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.250.2 (talk • contribs) (05:13, July 23, 2007 (UTC)

Poll: Consensus check

Could everyone with an opinion on whether or not the 1315 Muhammad painting should be included at the Kaaba article, please weigh in? I'd like to see one opinion per editor, stating where you currently stand on this issue. Thanks, --Elonka 18:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Replace the painting with a photograph of the Black Stone. We use the painting on other articles, it doesn't have to be on this article, and providing a photo of the Black Stone seems like a reasonable compromise. Alternatively, we could use the show/hide option. --Elonka 18:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• B-Class Islam-related articles
• High-importance Islam-related articles
• WikiProject Islam articles
• B-Class Architecture articles
• Top-importance Architecture articles