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The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. The principals in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris are expected to convert the article from its present state based on original research and BK publications to an article containing verifiable information based on reliable third party sources. After a suitable grace period, the state of the article may be evaluated on the motion of any member of the Arbitration Committee and further remedies applied to those editors who continue to edit in an inappropriate manner. Any user may request review by members of the Arbitration Committee. Posted by Srikeit for the Arbitration committee. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris.

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Spirit Possession

I think spirit possession is pushing it too far and reflects a Western bias. It's clear the group does medium channeling and the sort they do seems consistent with many Eastern traditions.

Where the evidence is contradictory from reliable citations, I suggest removing whatever is being claimed and refer people to the contradictory pieces of evidence. For example, "BKWSU advocates celibacy, vegetarianism, and XXX..." should be more than enough said about sex. The quotations on sex are POV (selectively chosen to make spiritual celibacy look strange). Many spiritual traditions advocate celibacy (Roman Catholic priests come to mind first). Renee --Renee 16:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

First you write that "spirit possession" that should be removed and then you write that we should follow what reliable sources have stated. This strikes me as contradictory because the term is mentioned in reliable sources. Andries 20:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

From my read of the source, which does appear reliable, the author is doing a type of post-modern analysis of gender roles and power (and as a former university professor, I've reviewed many papers like this). The basic gist of her article is that even though women appear to be in positions of power, they possess their power only through the male voice speaking through them (showing that the power is still male). If you read what she says, she's not speaking of the common meaning of "spirit possession" (in which the common, connotative meaning usually is "demonic possession"), but of mediumistic channeling. So as I said above, it appears the group definitely says they are involved in mediumistic channeling, but the words "spirit possession" are not neutral and have a lot of connotative meaning for English speakers.

Also, when I edited it, it didn't seem right to put it in the lead paragraph, because it's not THE central core belief or practice. I think it should be in the article, but not in the lead, and it certainly should be written in a neutral manner.

Best wishes, Renee --Renee 20:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. remember our goal is to have an article that everyone can live with, though it may not be exactly how each person wants it. For example, I doubt if the pro-BKWSU group wants "mediumistic channeling" in the article because frankly, most Westerners would run for the hills at that statement. But, spirit possession really seems to be an intentional "anti" provocation, so I hope that the phrase "medium channeling" is a reasonable compromise. Renee 20:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Also the reference used is in itself misleading. It implies there are more than one medium delivering the murli in the present tense. This is simply not the case and if necessary I can show other references that show otherwise. It also seems to give the impression that these mediums (in plural) are in some kind of competition for prominence on account their mediumistic capability to do this. This is also patent nonsense. It's a very clunky and strange citation to be using, as it was, out of context, for a first paragraph. Some degree of care and common sense is needed when using Western academic citations to explain Eastern religion because sometimes it's clear they profoundly just haven't got it. Regards Bksimonb 20:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I consider the question of mediumship to be open. Compromise is required not deletion. The centrality appears to be well argued. Faithinhumanity 19:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The misreprentation that this misinterpretation belongs in the lead violates the policy of not giving undue weight to a minor point or a single source. IPSOS (talk) 19:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

May I ask Renee what her knowledge of this organisation is to make such pronounced statements about what is and is not central? I found the supporting evidence deleted from this page convincing. Mediumistic channelling is the name of the wikipedia topic. There is no such as "medium channeling".

There was an outstanding question regarding the age of the founder also removed. Faithinhumanity 13:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Faithinhumanity, I am a neutral, outside editor brought in by the Rfc. Accusations cannot be included because they are not verifiable. --Renee 20:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Faithinhumanity, I notice that "channeling" is highlighted in the opening paragraph and it leads to a link called "Channeling (mediumistic)," so this sentence conveys what you want it to. Is the age of the founder contested? Maybe a line could be put in saying, "The exact year of birth of the founder is unclear, with estimates ranging from XXXX to XXXX." Renee --Renee 14:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The age is indeed contested but not by any reliable source as yet. See this thread. Regards Bksimonb 15:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've just read the thread and it seems all opinions might be accommodated with a line like,

"Most published sources give the year of Lekhraj Kripalani's birth as 1876 (insert references 1-5 below), though one early book (insert ref 6 below) suggested it was 1884, and still others suggest birth years of 1887 or 1888 (insert appropriate ref)."

If the latter numbers are just speculation appearing on talk boards in the internet, then they can't be included here and the last clause should be cut. Again, we can only post verifiable evidence.

References for statement above:

1. Hunt, Stephen J. (2003). Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 120. ISBN 0754634108.

2. Clarke, Peter Bernard (2006). New Religions in Global Perspective: A Study of Religious Change in the Modern World. Routledge, 248. ISBN 0415257476.

3. Macgregor, Ronald Stuart (1992). Devotional Literature in South Asia: Current Research, 1985-8. Cambridge University Press, 302. ISBN 0521413117.

4. Woodhead, Linda (2002). Religions in the Modern World: Traditions and Transformations. Routledge, 31. ISBN 0415217830.

5. Doktór, Tadeusz (1999). Nowe ruchy religijne i parareligijne w Polsce: mały słownik. Verbinum, 37.

6. Radhe, Om (1938). Is this justice? Being an account of the founding of the Om Mandli & the Om Nivas and their suppression, by application of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908. The Phermacy Printing Press, Karachi, 154.

--Renee 20:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. The Radhe reference only implies the date rather than stating it. Some maths is required to reach 1885 and so, strictly speaking, it is original research. I guess at some point we need to address the article on Lekhraj Kripalani since it now differs from this article. Regards Bksimonb 12:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Renee, could you clarify what accusations I made? Faithinhumanity 16:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Edits?

Per the discussions above, I'd like to take a crack at streamlining this article where issues are contested (just give a neutral statement and retain the cites) as well as neutralize the language a bit. Feedback welcome. --Renee 14:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Help!! I edited the first two sections (as well as streamlined some of the later text) but lost most of the references. Everytime I tried to retain them they would either move everything to a footnote or highlight everything. So, I figured it was easier to write the text, and then have someone knowledgeable about how to do references go back in and add the references.

So, can someone please re-insert the references where they belong?

Also, if someone could please refer me to a reference tutorial, I'd appreciate it. This is just a start to the revamping of this article.

Thanks! --Renee 14:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Well it definitely reads with less of a sting now :-) I will see if I can re-insert the references now. Otherwise congratulations for a much needed cleanup of the language. And there's me thinking it would take another rfc to get that through...

I just managed to re-insert one reference OK. I'll try an put others back as required. I just copy and pasted from a previous version everything between and including the relevant <ref></ref> tags.

Best regards Bksimonb 15:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for working on re-inserting the references. Remember, we're not trying to make the article nice or pleasant (just like we're not trying to make it negative or hostile), but neutral and balanced. Thanks. --Renee 15:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

"neutral" and "balanced" is all I've ever hoped for. I was referring to the atmosphere on this talk page rather than the article.

What references need to be re-inserted other than the one I tried? I tried to tie-up the other refs to the text and from what I can tell the others are redundant now.

Regards Bksimonb 15:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. I think some third-party references are needed after the last sentence in the first paragraph. Do you know of any academic or journal citations that might be appropriate? Also, if possible the Barrett reference should be re-inserted after the second paragraph (starting "Some members...") in the Early History section. Thanks. --Renee 16:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

OK I've re-inserted the Barrett reference but it seems to be referring to something else. The Om Radhe reference cites the problems with the community but is a primary source. Is that the one you meant? If so then there are secondary sources that say the same thing. Will look into it tomorrow. Regards Bksimonb 21:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm...I was just re-inserting sources basically where they appeared in the earlier version, trusting that the sentence was sourced properly. If there's a better secondary source saying what the line says, by all means please use that. Thanks, Renee --Renee 21:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. The last sentence of the first paragraph is quite accurate but I haven't been able to find a reference that encapsulates all the four aspects (also known as four pillars) of BK life in a nutshell. Did you have any pointers as to where you sourced the info to narrow down the search?

I have added a sentence to the first paragraph to mention the "murlis" since these are quite a central part of the BKWSU. Regards Bksimonb 15:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bksimonb,

Most of the references listed are hard copies only, so I didn't have access to them. What I did was review the BKWSU website, extracted out what appeared to be the essentials, and then reviewed the anti-BKWSU sites to see if any of these sites disputed that these were key elements (and they didn't, they were often critical of some of these elements). The problem is we can't use any of these websites as sources because they're either biased (the anti sites) or primary (the BKWSU site). So, I was hoping some journal article or academic book also outlined these key issues. If not, then we should probably delete the line, but I would imagine that several of the books listed would list these key things, if they are really the key foci of the group.

I think adding the murlis line is a good move, and hopefully addresses faithinhumanity's concern that the mediumistic channeling appears in the lead.

Renee --Renee 23:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. I'm not aware of any secondary sources that really encapsulate the "four subjects". However a primary source should be OK just for stating what the "four subjects" are as this is, as far as I am aware, not a contested fact. In which case we could cite Ken O'Donnel, Raja Yoga New Beginnings, 1987, ISBN 0-9637396-4-6, page 170 (Actually the copy I have has no ISBN, the 1995 version does, will have to do more research to check the page number is the same on the latest edition).

Regards Bksimonb 17:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk Archive proposal

In the interests of making this a "nice" article to be involved with I am proposing we archive the talk with the exception of the above "Edits?" post. Although a lot of the threads are live they have become huge and are full of civility and other issues.

We can restart any important threads as required. Let me know if you have any views otherwise I will perform the operation tomorrow.

Regards Bksimonb 15:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for asking, I'd say go for it Simon. Best, Avyakt7 18:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

OK I've made the archive in the absence of any objections. I copied the end part of the thread on mediumship but left the first part only available in the archive due to WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL issues with it. I moved some posts in this "Talk Archive Proposal" up to the "spirit possession" thread since that is what they were discussing. Best regards Bksimonb 15:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Meaningless statistic?

"According to a 2004 study, only 18% of BKWSU followers felt that the movement was effective in raising its voice against atrocities against women."

If there is no objections I propose to delete this statement from the article tomorrow because it is not relevant. The BKWSU are not a campaigning lobbyist or activist organisation which probably explains the low result of the survey.

Regards Bksimonb 19:23, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that this line seemed a little random to me but I figured it did no harm in the article. It's kind of a 'so what' line. --Renee 23:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Further proposed changes

Looking through the article there are a few things that stand out that I would like to change if there are no objections.

1) Under the activities section, the paragraph starting, "On the periphery, the terminology " does not really explain what the activities are. It is juxtaposing three references to make a critisism. There is nothing wrong with this valid critisism except that Walliss has written whole papers on it so it can be stated without the synthesis from three references. It is also duplicated in the Controversies and Critisim section starting with the sentence, "Dr. Walliss notes that while the BKWSU was, "originally a reclusive...". I suggest we delete the paragraph in the Activities section leaving the one in the Critisism section.

2) Expansion section. There is a sentence in it, "On 16th January 1969, the BKWSU...", which is a detail that is unreferenced and seems to have little to do with "expansion". I suggest re-writing this paragraph. I propose the following text as the end of the first paragraph of the Expansion section.

From 1964 to 1969 more sophisticated methods of outreach began involving exhibitions, seminars and conferences in different parts of India (Frank Whaling, Journal of Contemporary Religion Vol.10 No.1 1995, p10).

Also the figures attributed to the BKWSU website need updating, the website currently claims, "...825,000 students and over 8,500 centres in 100 countries and territories."

3) The last sentence of the "View of Christianity" section seems redundant, "The BKWSU claim any more secrets about Christ and the other religious founders have been revealed by their God." Also the phrase, "their God" does not reflect what was stated in the reference. I suggest removing this one sentence as redundant. The original reference is quoted here...

"Just as far as God the Father was now sharing a body with Brahma Baba, in the same way Christ had entered the body of Jesus. It was Jesus who suffered on the cross, not Christ. That pure Son of God left the body early and went to and took rebirth to help guide his fledgling religion into maturity. Many more secrets about Christ and the other religious founders have been revealed by Baba". Chryssides, George D. and Margaret Z. Wilkins. 'A Reader in New Religious Movements'. p 270 IBSN 0-80826-6168-9".

4) Use of Mediumship. The last sentence, "Academics note the prominence", uses the same problematic Puttick reference. I suggest this is attributed if it is to be kept since it is a different account to that put forward by other reliable sources.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 16:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to propose to change the tone on the 'celibacy issues.' Brahma Kumaris practises celibacy. All the different reasons in the article are not accurate as far as our belief is concerned. It is not only about liberating "women" as a paragraph mentions, because men are part of the movement as well and men practice celibacy likewise. Celibacy is mentioned in the opening paragraph, in the "life style" paragraph and there is a whole paragraph about "attitudes towards sex." One of the references is in Hindi I believe, (why not use english references?) the other one calls Brahma Kumaris a "sect" which is not consistent with the term already used to refer to it NRM. Best, Avyakt7 20:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bksimonb,

This is too much for me to digest at once! (especially on a Sunday!) Maybe we can focus on 1-2 things at a time?

1. yes, having these sentences in one section without redundancy sounds right.

2. I think "sophisticated" should be deleted (by who's estimate was it sophisticated, if this is allowed then so are other descriptors, better to be simple and neutral). e.g.,

From 1964 to 1969 outreach efforts expanded to include exhibitions, seminars and conferences in different parts of India (Frank Whaling, Journal of Contemporary Religion Vol.10 No.1 1995, p10).

3. To be honest, this seems like way too much detail for Wiki. Also, if I were a gambler I'd bet that the sections "View of Christianity" and "Attitudes toward sex" were put in by those against BKWSU to make their case that it's strange. When topics like this are pulled out of a whole practice it seems suspicious and has a great possibility of being out of context. I would recommend cutting these two sections.

4. I agree that the last sentence can be cut (it seems like another 'so what?' line). By the way, when you click on this reference there's nothing there? same for 18.

Dear Riveros11 or Avyakt7, yes, I think it's best to just simply say "Brahma Kumaris practises celibacy."

Renee --Renee 22:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Renee; could you clarify as far as the extent of that change? I feel the "attitudes towards sex" paragraph should be erased since Celibacy has been mentioned enough.I feel that the word "celibacy" already contains enough info about our "attitude towards sex." Warm regards and Thank you. Riveros11 22:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think the attitudes toward sex paragraph should be cut. Celibacy is highlighted in the intro paragraph and explained further (i.e., even in marriage) in the lifestyle section. Simple and clear and NPOV. Best, Renee --Renee 22:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. Per the discussion here, I deleted the "View of Christianity" section. Very unclear and convoluted. If it's central to the group's beliefs and practice then please rewrite before re-posting. It really was a mess. --Renee 23:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

With regards to the Whaling reference, the word "sophisticated" was used in the reference but you are right, it isn't NPOV, and so it should be excluded. Regards Bksimonb 06:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

British or American spelling?

Hey guys, are you using British or American spelling here? I just made one paragraph consistent with American (it had "internationalisation" and "programme" with "centers") but then as it was saving another flashed before me in British spelling. Please advise. --Renee 23:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That is a good question. A couple of us (editors) come from the USA. The others from UK. They can tell the time, I tell time... tea or coffee? they don't mind... I don't care..Haven't a clue on this one...or perhaps "have no clue..." Best, Riveros11 01:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I live in London, but I am quite happy to standardise (oops!) standardize on US spelling :-) If you see me slip up on the article by all means correct what I type.

Regards Bksimonb 06:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The Atman foundation

I would like to bring this link to your attention: It comes from Cesnur (Center for Studies on New Religions) Please note that Dr. Heide Fittkau-Garthe was found innocent of all charges. Moreover, the article clearly states:"A leader of the German branch of the Brahma Kumaris, she left the Indian movement (or was excluded from it) and eventually became one of the most prominent self-help motivational speakers in Germany, organizing her activities into the Atman Foundation." I wonder what is the reason of that paragraph then? what is the message that is trying to convey? Best Wishes, Riveros11 11:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact that she was found innocent of all charges only emerged from a reliable source recently. All the news article before that had the news about the incident and Brahama Kumaris prominently in the same paragraph. I suspect this had propaganda value because of the simple word-association between the two that people may have made when reading it. The news articles at the time seemed to be quoting the same source. I reported the fact that this incident had been pushed into a number of different articles on Misplaced Pages at the time of the arbcom case.

Unfortunately with news incidents like this it is only the initial charges that get reported, not the outcome of the case. Especially if it embarrassing to the media outlets that they were led up the garden path by someone as in this case.

So the question remains, is this incident even notable, and, if so, is it notable enough for this article? I suggest not.

Regards Bksimonb 12:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's only notable if the charges were proven; otherwise it's just malicious gossip that has no place in an encyclopedia. --Renee 13:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Deleted "Atman foundation" paragraph per discussion. Best Wishes, Riveros11 14:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Kripalani vs Dada Lekhraj & Brahma Baba

Just want to float this issue again. It does seem a bit strange that a founder of an NRM should be called by his pre-NRM surname name all the way through the article. As an example of why this may have been done, take a look at this edit made to the Patibha Patil article recently by an IP account. Here it seems obvious to me that Brahma Baba is being derobed of his status as a founder of an NRM and reduced to a mere Sindhi merchant. I suspect the intention of going against the WP:COMMONAME guideline is the same here and also in the Lekhraj Kripalani article. I get the impression the underlying message is something along the lines of "You ain't special! You ain't nothin'!". Comments? Bksimonb 12:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What is an NRM? I think we need to just be consistent throughout the article. It seems that it is important to know his given name, and then when/why the name change occurred, and then refer to him consistently throughout. I don't think we should attach a particular value or meaning to calling him one over the other. --Renee 13:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. I just re-read the article and now know what an NRM is. Regarding the name issue, there are so many names given, that I think we should stick with Kripalani throughout and put Brahma Baba in parenthesis behind it (so all parties are accommodated). I understand the rationale of using the different names at different times, because when it goes through the history it has to refer to Kripalani in 1937 (for example) because his name hadn't changed yet (so you couldn't call him Brahma Baba here). I honestly don't think it reflects a value judgment to call him one or the other; it's just a matter of following a systematic protocol. --Renee 14:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem I have right now is that the article refers to him differently to any of the references. So I guess the question is why is Misplaced Pages doing it differently to everyone else? I seem to be whistling into the wind on this issue so perhaps, unless there is any support for it, I guess I'll park it for now. I'll have to think how I can articulate my concerns better.

Just some background, this is the article after Utcursch cleaned it up initially . And this is how it was undone (note the edit comment). Utcursch's initial response was "As for "Dada Lekhraj", it is not "cultic language" -- Lekhraj Kripalani is known as "Baba Brahma" among his followers, not "Dada Lekhraj". Kripalani was better known as "Dada Lekhraj", just like "Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi" was better known as "Mahatma Gandhi":" an explanation that I strongly agree with.

Regards Bksimonb 14:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Yikes, I'm so confused now. I just went through the article up to the beliefs section and made it consistently refer to "Kripalani (Brahma Baba)..." throughout. Is this acceptable to you? (or did you prefer "Dad Lekhraj"? I think you have a good point regarding Gandhi's name. --Renee 14:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well it's a step in the right direction :-) I don't want this small issue to detract from the fact that I really do appreciate your effort on this article. A concern with the name is that if anyone reads about the BKWSU or comes into contact with them or anything they are never going to hear the name "Kripalani" except on Misplaced Pages. So why add a layer of complexity for people to wade through? So at least referring to the the most common name also is an improvement. Usually, he is "Dada Lekhraj" before the establishment and "Brahama Baba" after. I suggest the best way to deal with the article is to call him "Dada Lekhraj Kripalani (later known as Brahma Baba)" when he is first introduced and then just Dada Lekhraj thereafter. That seems the best way to keep the name consistent and not confuse the reader with different names. What do you think? Regards Bksimonb 14:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've re-edited up to Tree of Humanity section and changed the name accordingly. There are currently two places where the courses are referenced (under beliefs and I think under activities). Shall we merge these together so they're not redundant? Please feel free to do so. Thanks, Renee --Renee 15:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Miscellaneous

Thanks for fixing the "fard"! --Renee 15:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem :-) I think they meant "food" rather than "fare". Bksimonb 15:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Meaning of Brahma Kumaris

Hi Folks, I'm reading and re-reading this article and just realized that no where does it define what "Brahma Kumaris" means. From what I've read it means "daughters of Brahma" and is based on the belief that women have an important spiritual leadership role to play in today's world, because of their feminine qualities such as patience, kindness and love. Is this statement accurate?

If yes, I think it should go in the lead paragraph, because it explains a basic essence of the group that's not currently reflected in the piece.

Thanks, Renee --Renee 19:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Renee. Yes "Brahma Kumaris" literally means "daughters of Brahma". Male BKs are referred to as "Brahma Kumars", or "sons of Brahma". Can't comment on the exact reasons why, I'll have to do some asking around & reading. Regards Bksimonb 19:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is my take on the name issue. It will not be easy to explain the signifcance without going into a bit of expansion...The actual name is "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya" which loosely means something like: "university of godly knowledge of the daughters (and sons) of the father of the people, Brahma." Prajapita means the "Father of the People." it is the equivalent of the "Adam" in christianity. As such, the whole humanity is Brahma Kumaris/Kumar (daughters and sons of Brahma.)However, as one Murli explained "we," "Bks" have recognized God when others (brothers and sisters) have not. Thus, the term is inclusive to all humanity. In the Hindu tradition there are 3 aspects which occur eternally in the universe; there is creation, sustenance and destruction, which in turn will originate a new cycle of creation, sustenance and destruction.. ad infinitum. Brahma is the name of that first part/act of the "trimurti"(3 aspects) namely,"creation" or establishment.

In other words, God "creates" the new world, through Brahma. Note that "Kumaris" rather then "Kumar" is being used for the utmost respect of the role of a woman at this point in time. (before women had a second class role throughout history and thus the "role reversal" that some religious experts note, but now God "Himself" is uplifting women at their due time ) There is a difference between "brahma" and "prajapita brahma" and the understanding of God creating/acting through others....but that is beyond the scope of this simplistic explanation...That is why, the name has been simplified to Brahma Kumaris. Warm regards, Riveros11 22:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Riveros11. So far it seems the two references that might cover this are "Peace and Purity" by Liz Hodgekinson and "Is this Justice" by Om Radhe. Obviously the former reference is preferred as Om Radhe is a primary source. I can't seem to find a copy of Peace and Purity right now. Do you have it? Otherwise I'll just buy another copy. Regards Bksimonb 07:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello bksimonb, I am traveling, so I will not be able to get a copy from the center which I normally attend. Will be out of the cyberworld for a couple of days as well...Thank you for pointing out the references. Best Wishes, Riveros11 14:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Chapter on God

This chapter is a mess. There's some funky synthesis going on with at least three different references to make a completely misleading paragraph.

• "Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba)did not claim himself to be a guru or avatar". Correct - but he did claim to be Brahma.
• "but the members of the Om Mandali believed he was the incarnation of Brahma." - and this is from a different reference. Synthesis? It also implies a rift between what Dada Lekhraj thought and what other BKs thought, otherwise why use the word "but"?
• "Some of his followers believed that a spiritual being (Shiva) entered his body and spoke through him to teach humanity verbally." So there was a rift between the BKs too? Some thought one thing some thought another? Why juxtapose these statements in this way? It is also mixing phases in history. This paragraph is supposed to be in the present tense.

I suggest the following paragraph to replace it with.

BK ideas about God are a marked departure from Hindu concepts. God is an eternal and conscient being of light, the ‘All-Highest Soul’, ever-pure and good. Although having all knowledge and in that sense being omniscient, he is not omnipresent. Not only is God eternal—an eternal power or energy—but matter and human souls are also eternal; neither are they created by God nor do they emerge from God.

This is referenced to Reender Kranenborg. It is also the same text as the Citizendium article but since I uploaded it I hereby dual-license it for use here too if it is useful.

Regards Bksimonb 19:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm...this sounds pretty esoteric to me and gobbly-gookish to me (sorry! must be my simple brain!).

Is there a simpler way of putting it?

Also, I think we should leave the descriptors out, like "marked" departure and just simply say "departure" because otherwise it sounds like POV. (e.g., I just read the CESNUR article and I think the author would agree that BK departs from Hindu but "marked departure" might be a stretch.)

So, the only line that reads clearly to me in the above paragraph is the first (after deleting the word "marked").

Thanks, Renee --Renee 19:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It was an attempt to paraphrase Kranenborg which doesn't give us much to work with. Do you think we should maybe use a more primary source in this instance? If so we could possibly use Ken O'Donnel, New Beginings however it would take me a day or so to distill the whole chapter into one paragraph. In the meantime I just visited the "Plain English Campaign" and suitably inspired, will now attempt to explain the BK concept of God free-from in plain English.

God is believed to be a the form of a point of light residing in an infinite expanse of golden-red light referred to as the "Brahm Element" or "Nirvana". God, referred to BK's as being "Shiva", is neither omnipresent nor the Brahm Element itself. Human souls are also points of light living in the Brahm element. The difference is they visit earth and take human forms and reincarnate whereas God stays at home. All souls are initially pure, that is, only having a nature of virtues such as love, bliss, wisdom, peace etc. however God has these to an infinite degree and never loses these qualities. God's role is then to instruct the souls who have by now forgotten their original form, and are completely depleted and caught up in worldly matters, how to become pure again in order to return home. This is done through the medium of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) and more recently Dadi Gulzar.

I can think of other stuff to include but it's already a long paragraph. Now I just need to reference it to something.

Regards Bksimonb 07:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Consensus

Faithinhumanity I have reverted your latest edits because they are adding serious undue weight to the first paragraph and are clearly not NPOV. There are three active editors who are in agreement over what the first paragraph should be and, just as importantly, should not be. If you feel strongly enough otherwise then please raise an Rfc to get more input but please do not just overrule the consensus that was reached here and the consensus that WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV represent. Also the Puttick reference was found to be not entirely accurate where cited nor used in context. You're cooperation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 18:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Faith

in case you have not notice , they have put in a sockpuppet complaint about you and me

two of those making up the consensus are both BK members and part of the Bkwsu Internet PR team , and the other one does not know anyting about the Bkwsu..............so i dont think it really counts

this is what they will do , they will grind you down with all sort of accusations which are really just excuses their pov or Pr......trying to block you if they can , it has been going on for a year and has happened beforeUser:Green108

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