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Revision as of 15:11, 10 August 2007

California B‑class Low‑importance

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LGBTQ+ studies B‑class

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Change in Insanity Defense Laws

Not that this is really that big of a deal, but I would like to point out one thing about crediting the White trial with reform in California's insantiy defense laws. Another, and much bigger, trial, the trial of John Hinckley Jr. and his attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, occurred in 1982. The outcome of that trial, which I am certain everyone is aware of, lead to a great deal of public outrage and federal as well as state reform of insantity defense laws. Given that Reagan was govenor of California, and that the reforming laws were passed in 1982, I would surmise that the law had more to do with the Hinckley verdict than the verdict for White. I am sure White's verdict played a part, but it just seems like a not guilty verdict being delivered for a man who shot the current president and former govenor would have more of an impact on the state legislature.

No, actually Proposition 8 really was more attributable to the Dan White case than the John Hinckley case. Prop 8 passed about two weeks before the verdict came in in the Hinckley trial. In fact, "Remember Dan White" was something of a rallying cry among some of those who campaigned for Prop 8. Mwelch 00:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well then...my mistake, and good to know. I've certainly never done any research into Dan White, I just wrote a research paper about Hinckley and assumed that given the year there was a correlation.

Misinterpretation

I can't help but think this article could benefit from some re-organization in terms of pointing out the actual etymology of the phrase. It is so blatantly misinterpreted in common reference that I think the article should have a separate section addressing this, as opposed to merely a one-sentence mention. Bullzeye 10:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added the section. The reference is the Snopes urban legend page, which is already listed. Bullzeye 10:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Um... it already did point out the "actual etymology of the phrase". You know this, because you moved it further down the page. I honestly don't think moving it further down is a good idea, but I'm going to try keeping it in its current place and cleaning up the phrasing a bit to see if we can make the actual sequence of events clearer. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Twinkie Image

Does having a picture of several Twinkies really enhance this article? Admittedly it's named after them but it's not ABOUT them. (note to self, sign in before editing) Howdoesthiswo 01:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

My Cousin Vinny

I don't remember this part of that movie, and I've seen it dozens of times...

My mistake, it was actually from Trial and Error (film), which is filled with homages to My Cousin Vinny. Staxringold 21:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

"although the latter concept has yet to gain complete acceptance in the U.S. legal community." is hilarious. 67.174.91.20 07:27, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

LGBT?

How does this related to LGBT? It's in that category, and doesn't seem directly relevant. The article could use an explanation of why it is in that category, if there is a reason. - User:ZachPruckowski

Just had a look at the article - its not as explicit as it once was. If you follow the links to Harvey Milk and White Night riots, you'll have a better idea of how it is an LGBT issue. -Seth Mahoney 06:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm just coming at this from the perspective of someone who had never heard of the case. It does make sense if you follow the links in the article, but I feel like it ought to have some mention of it in the actual article. I don't feel confident enough to actually put it in myself. -User:ZachPruckowski

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I agree - in fact, the article used to make the connection more explicitely. Dunno what happened to that. -Seth Mahoney 21:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, this article is related to gay rights because the gay panic defense is basically just a specific version of the Twinkie defense. These two articles should cross-reference eachother.--SeanQuixote | talk | my contribs 04:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Analogy

I think a lot of people have trouble even today understanding what the defense was really arguing, why they were bringing the Twinkies into it. I think they might understand it better if an analogy was drawn: If a particular person was known to care very deeply for his personal appearance, and to put great effort into his clothes and his grooming, then seeing that person show up somewhere poorly groomed and wearing ratty old clothes would be a strong indicator that there was something wrong -- no one would think that the clothes and the beard stubble were the cause of the person's problem, but it would be a good indicator that they were in some sort of distress, as they had clearly ceased to care about things they had been known to care about a great deal.

Can this analogy be added without being original research? -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, according to one of the linked articles, White's abandonment of personal grooming was also cited by the defense as evidence of his depression. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Chewbacca Defense

At the end of the "References in Popular Culture" section, there's mention of the South Park "Chewbacca Defense" bit. I thought that was more a reference to Cochran's defense of OJ Simpson and the "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit" line? Kai MacTane 17:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, that was a direct ref to the OJ trial. --Diogenes00 21:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It might be worth keeping as a "See also", though. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Relevance of Milk's homosexuality

Regarding the assertion that Milk's homosexuality is important to note in this article because "it was because of his being openly gay that the murders occured and allegedly the reason the defense was employed."

1. It's a matter of opinion that Milk's being gay was the reason the murder occurred. Admittedly, it's a very widely held opinion (and indeed, my personal opinion is that it was at the very least a significant contributing factor in White's not stopping with Moscone, but rather moving on to Milk also). But it's still an opinion, so I'd have to object to a Misplaced Pages article assuming it as a fact. The immediate precipitating factor was that Moscone and Milk were blocking his re-entry to the board. Moscone was not gay. A friend of White's has quoted him as later admitting that he wanted to shoot Carol Ruth Silver and Willie Brown too. Obviously, neither of them was gay. But they were both instrumental in blocking him from getting back on the board, just like Milk and Moscone were. So it's easy to put forth the argument that even though White was personally homophobic, his specific reason for killing people was political opposition, not the sexual orientation.
2. And even more importantly here . . . I've never seen a single reference that suggests the reason the defense team chose for the diminished capacity defense was that Milk was gay. If that were true, I agree that would make the point relevant in this article. (And even then, it would need to be expounded upon in the article more than just the two word addition.) But there definitely needs to be a reliable source attribution before the article accepts that suggestion as true. To be honest, I'm not even sure that I follow how that suggestion even makes sense. What if Milk had not been gay? What if (just for the sake of example) he was straight and thus there was no argument that White had killed him solely for political reasons as indicated above? How/why would that cause his defense team to not try to used diminished capacity as his defense?

If there is a reliable source reference that discusses legal reasons why Milk's homosexuality might have made a diminished capacity defense more suitable, then that source should be cited and the concept fully explored in this article. Without that, though, there is nothing that indicates Milk's homosexuality is relevant to this specific article about this type of legal defense. It seems to me that it was White's best play regardless of Milk's sexuality. Mwelch 03:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Upon thinking about it some more, I actually can see a compelling argument for relevance given the widespread belief (as evidenced by the riots) that defense would not have actually worked had it not been for Milk's homosexuality. As I say above, I can't see that it affects the decision to try it, but clearly many felt and feel that homophobia on the part of the jurors made them more willing to buy it than they might have been otherwise. So that is valid point. But still, it's a point that would need to made in full in the article, not just with the two-word "openly gay" addition in front of Milk's name. Mwelch 03:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Generally agreed. I've tried to flesh out the section but not sure I've captured the "old boy network" idea that White was a former police officer and firefighter and was generally ostracized as a conservative fringe by the newly liberal board that had just taken control of the SF Board of Supes. San Francisco had just turned to district elections so each district voted for residents of their areas to represent them.

In the trial, (not sure if this info fits or is useful) it was pointed out that a cop or firefighter had unlocked a window or opened a door so (former-employee) White could enter with a gun. Benjiboi 21:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

"a cop or firefighter had unlocked a window or opened a door so (former-employee) White could enter with a gun"? That's a rather powerful assertion of wrongdoing, accusing some unknown party of premeditated assistance to homicide. Where is your citation? -- 192.250.34.161 15:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not writing the book so haven't dug through the trial transcripts or newspaper accounts of the trial, as I've stated "not sure if this info fits or is useful." If someone wants to dig for it then go for it by all means. Benjiboi 23:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I realized that the above statement "a cop or firefighter had unlocked a window or opened a door so (former-employee) White could enter with a gun" makes less sense unless you know that the assassinations occurred in San Francisco's City Hall and that all visitors had to go through a security check point and Dan White would not have been allowed through with a gun. The windows that were accessible from the street level were secured and, I believe, the only folks who had access to the window that was unlocked was police and firemen. White was both a former cop and fireman. Benjiboi 23:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

And from that you are making your own deduction that the only possible reason someone could have opened that window was so that Dan White could get in that way. -- 192.250.34.161 14:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Mwelch, I believe Milk's homosexuality is relevant to this article, up to a point. It's fairly easy to find citations that people thought that homophobia was the real reason for the unexpectedly light verdict and sentence, and this made them more prone to believe that the "Twinkie defense" had actually been offered as the purported reason, even though the facts show it was not.

But that is the limit of the extent to which it is relevant. Benjiboi keeps showing that he is less interested in the facts than in pushing his agenda by referring to the "atmosphere of why "twinkie defense" worked", ignoring the fact that it didn't. There is no need for the material he keeps trying to add specifying what the White Night Riots consisted of; that is what the article White Night Riots is for. There is absolutely no need for the material he keeps adding to the References in popular culture section, which I will quote here:

Execution of Justice is an award-winning ensemble play by Emily Mann chronicling the case of the People vs. Dan White which is cited to law students as one of the leading examples of a miscarriage of justice. White assassinated openly gay San Francisco Supervisor Harvey Milk and San Francisco mayor George Moscone in November 1978. The play has been made into a movie as well.

What does this material do?

• It repeats already-covered basics of the case, namely, that White killed Milk and Moscone and Milk was openly gay.
• It tells us that the play is award-winning and has been made into a movie, which is of no relevance since the play is not the subject of this article and the subject of the play is not even the subject of this article.
• It pushes Benjiboi's agenda by volunteering the (uncited) claim that "the People vs. Dan White ... is cited to law students as one of the leading examples of a miscarriage of justice." At least I hope that the sentence is supposed to mean that it's the case being cited as a miscarriage of justice, rather than the play. Who cites the case to law students this way? Is it at least people who get the basic facts of the case correct, such as that the argument that most people think was accepted either gullibly or corruptly by a jury was in fact not even presented to the jury?

What does this material not do?

• It doesn't say a single damn thing about the Twinkie defense. Which, I regret that we must remind some people, is the subject of the article.

If Benjiboi wants to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of the Moscone-Milk killings and the events around them, he could easily start by finding reliable sources for White Night Riots. If he is merely trying to push an agenda, however, he will keep trying to push irrelevant material into this article. -- 192.250.34.161 15:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

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