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Revision as of 18:13, 14 August 2007 editTariqabjotu (talk | contribs)Administrators36,354 edits →culture in israel: + reply← Previous edit Revision as of 18:56, 14 August 2007 edit undoGilabrand (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users72,084 edits →culture in israel: replyNext edit →
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:I've had enough. I've disagreed with you and others on pieces throughout the process of improving this article, but I have never resorted to ("Certain editors are trying to monopolize this page and push an Arab agenda"), ("The phrase "I take issue" already shows me you are in a militant state of mind."), ("If tariq tries to remove my edits, I will declare an edit war"), ("umpteenth time"), and comments. If you think you can do better, be my guest. But perhaps you should also spend some time examining how destructive some of your comments have been. -- ''']''' 18:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC) :I've had enough. I've disagreed with you and others on pieces throughout the process of improving this article, but I have never resorted to ("Certain editors are trying to monopolize this page and push an Arab agenda"), ("The phrase "I take issue" already shows me you are in a militant state of mind."), ("If tariq tries to remove my edits, I will declare an edit war"), ("umpteenth time"), and comments. If you think you can do better, be my guest. But perhaps you should also spend some time examining how destructive some of your comments have been. -- ''']''' 18:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
:::I don't enjoy the battle, I assure you, but your methods of reversing what anyone else has written (and not only me), rather than putting in a correction where needed, is presumptuous, inflammatory and destructive, to use your terminology. If you think that another sentence is necessary to balance the article out, I can understand that and will gladly work with you to find a compromise. What I will not accept is these blanket reverts, accompanied by statements to the effect that I have ruined some great masterpiece of English style and historical accuracy that was there before. Oh, and my comment on someone else's user page makes no mention of you. Could you be jumping to conclusions? On the whole, the article is slowly improving, and I hope we can work together to make it better and more accurate. One of the major problems I see is that in trying to condense the information into a few sentences, causal relationships are being introduced that are inaccurate, such as stating that Israel is doing well in high tech and linking that to the influx of Russians with college degrees. Also, important information that is crucial to the development of Israel and Israeli mentality is being glossed over as unimportant. An example is the Adolf Eichmann trial, where the text reads as if he were some ordinary Nazi that Israel decided to execute just for the heck of it. Another example is leaving out major reasons for the outbreak of a war, as if Israel launches wars without any provocation. These omissions are unacceptable. If there were only one such instance, I wouldn't make a big deal, but the text is full of such inaccuracies and my goal is to correct them. --] 18:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

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checkY A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.
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  • Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
  • Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
  • Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,834 words) "readable prose size"
  • Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
  • Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
  • East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8,152 words) "readable prose size"
  • Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9,092 words) "readable prose size"
  • New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,761 words) "readable prose size"
  • Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,178 words) "readable prose size"
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checkY== Economy ==Main article: Economy of Canada ☒N== Economy ==Main article: Economy of Canada See also: Petroleum industry in Canada and Agriculture in Canada Further information: Economic history of Canada and Early Canadian banking system

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Shortcut

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Notes

  1. Swedish: Sverige ; Finnish: Ruotsi; Meänkieli: Ruotti; Northern Sami: Ruoŧŧa; Lule Sami: Svierik; Pite Sami: Sverji; Ume Sami: Sverje; Southern Sami: Sveerje or Svöörje; Yiddish: שוועדן, romanized: Shvedn; Scandoromani: Svedikko; Kalo Finnish Romani: Sveittiko.
  2. Swedish: Konungariket Sverige
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Archives

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Archive
Old archives
  1. Israel and the Occupied Territories
  2. Jerusalem as capital

Utter Disgrace

How dare the editors, mention the occupied East Jerusalem and Hebron as a part of Israeli land. These areas were seized during the 6 day war, and they are not recongnised as Israeli land by the International community, but simply occupiers, hense the thought of the two state solution. This article has distroted the facts far enough, its time to stop this injustice and propaganda. I demand it be edited as quickly as possible. Any occupier does not have this power. And if the cowards are mentioning this, why have they failed to clearly state that Israel is a occupier nation. Cowardly attempt to make stuff up86.132.112.148 00:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You demand? Wow. Get over yourself.
And just as a reminder to anyone thinking of acting on this, please note that the article carefully distinguishes between Pre-1967 Israel, areas under Israeli law (like East Jerusalem) and disputed/occupied territories controlled in part by Israel but not under Israeli law (most of the West Bank).Schrodingers Mongoose 01:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Stop filling wikipedia with lies then. Heborn is in the West bank, just like E.J. dont tell me its under israeli law, because if that was the case, why are the thousands of Palestinians not treated the same as Israelis. The Palestinians that live in Hebron and the West Bank, should deserve the same rights the Israelis get inorder for this article to say ||palestinian territory||. And the settlements are illegal, that is why the Israel Prime minister has recently started its order of dismantlement. Israel can never get peace, if it continue its mass genocide and dispacement. 86.138.101.18 01:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions for improving the article? If there are errors, please cite sources that demonstrate this. Schrodingers Mongoose 01:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

thats stupid, find evidense to prove fact incorrect?, surely its the other way around. find evidense to prove facts right. theres no cite sources which say hebron 'belongs' to israel. on the other hand, you dont need to go far to see that israel is a occupier nation that denies the civilians of the occupation the rights they deserve under any occupation. 86.132.116.109 15:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe give us an example from the article of what you are saying. Where in the article is it written that "Hebron belongs to Israel" ? Benjil 16:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

well, its not a maybe, its just plain common sense, lol? you dont make claims without cites. and hebron is mentioned several times, i appreciate that sometimes it was suitable to mention it, but talking about hebron under the religion section is ridicilous. firstly this article is about israel, not the religion of judaism and its stupid to say the jews bla bla in hebron, secondly you shouldnt mention hebron under this section as it gives the impression that hebron is in israel (belongs to israel) which it does not, but is a disputed area. i say that because you dont see canadian cities listed on the american wiki, french on the spanish, kashmir on either pakistan and india, so it doesnt make sense, further more it is disrespect for the displaced palestinians that live in hebron.

if you want to talk about hebron, also talk about the fact that israel is an occupier nation, and that the international community sees there occupation as illegal following the rules of the fourth geneva convention bla bla. and it does not also allow the settlements that are made in the west bank, e.j and hebron (the main three) are also illegal, (that is why the israeli prime minister has demanded some to be dismantled (hebron recently))86.132.120.120 00:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The article mentions Hebron exactly four times:
  1. "In the 16th century, the pace stepped up, and large communities were established in Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed and Tiberias." (from Zionism and the British Mandate) - describes the Jewish presence in Eretz Israel and immigration to it.
  2. "At the end of the 1990s, Israel, under the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu, withdrew from Hebron" (from The first fifty years, 1950s-1990s) - do you have a problem with this one?
  3. "Of those, over 267,000 Israeli citizens lived in the West Bank within numerous settlements, including Ma'ale Adummim, Ariel, and a handful of communities, such as Hebron and Gush Etzion..." - the fact that these people don't live in Israel proper is clear. If we claimed Hebron is "in Israel", we wouldn't bother making the distinction, would we?
  4. "Other landmarks of great religious importance are located in the West Bank and include the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron and the birthplace of Jesus in Bethlehem." - Again, it's clear that these landmarks aren't in Israel proper, but are mentioned since they're under Israeli control.
I rest my case. okedem 14:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
For what's it's worth, in regards to the fourth item: the part about the West Bank was removed on August 7 (UTC) and I put it back this morning. -- tariqabjotu 15:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Intro, again

I have issues with the second paragraph of the intro:

Israel declared its independence in 1948 after the United Nations approved the partition of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Arab, in November 1947. Israel was admitted as a UN member in 1949. Since Independence, Israel has been at war with many of its neighbours, and many of its borders are disputed.

It's an awfully short paragraph and misleadingly implies that the U.N. Partition Plan's Jewish state is today's Israel. So... I propose something between this paragraph and the lengthy paragraph that previously resided in its place:

Israel (Hebrew: יִשְׂרָאֵל, Yisra'el), officially the State of Israel (Hebrew: \u05de\u05b0\u05d3\u05b4\u05d9\u05e0\u05b7\u05ea \u05d9\u05b4\u05e9\u05b0\u05c2\u05e8\u05b8\u05d0\u05b5\u05dc<\/b>"},"data":{"ipa":"","text":"","lang":"en","wikibase":"","file":"He-Medinat Israel.ogg"},"classes":}">מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל, Medinat Yisra'el; Template:Lang-ar, Dawlat Isrā'īl), is a country in Asia located on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It has borders with Lebanon in the north, Syria and Jordan in the east, and Egypt on the southwest, and contains geographically diverse features within its relatively small area. Also adjacent are the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which are partially administrated by the Palestinian National Authority.

The modern state of Israel has its roots in the land of Israel, which has been central to Judaism for four thousand years and, more recently, significant to other Abrahamic religions. In 1948, after the United Nations approved the partition of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Arab, Israel declared its independence. The new country's victory in the subsequent Arab-Israeli War expanded the borders of the Jewish state beyond those conceived by the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict with many of the neighboring Arab countries, with confrontations including the Six-Day War and the Yom Kippur War. Nevertheless, peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and numerous other conferences and agreements, have attempted to bring peace to Israel and the region.

Today, the population of Israel is about 7.1 million, with a large Jewish majority. While Israel is home to both Jews and Arabs, as well as a large number of Christian and other minority groups, it is the world's only Jewish state. Jerusalem is the capital, seat of government, and largest city. Due to its broad array of political rights and civil liberties, Israel is considered the only liberal democracy in the Middle East. Despite Israel's political problems and the vast sums it spends on military defense, Israel is an active competitor in the global market and is considered the most progressive in the region in terms of freedom of the press, business regulations, economic competition, and overall human development.

-- tariqabjotu 21:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tariqabjotu, firstly thanks for your comments the other day. I am responsible for removing the lengthy history section from the intro as I think we should try to avoid unnecessary repetitions and verbiage and there was a history seciton in place. I left the line about the UN as I think that UN membership legitimates a modern state and it seemed right for the intro. I have no objection to your correction iexcept that I think your last sentence is akward and wordy: "Nevertheless, peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and numerous other conferences and agreements, have attempted to bring peace to Israel and the region." I suggest "Since 1977 Israel has signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and efforts have been made to reach agreement with the Palestinian leaderhip." Telaviv1 09:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Scientific papers per capita

I removed a statement saying Israel has more scientific papers per capita, but Beit Or re-added it saying "the statement is reliably sourced, the link cited is not about per capita". The second part of that edit summary is not true. From the American Chemical Society:

An analysis by NSF gives a guide to the scientific productivity of nations. Based on the most recent data available (from within the 2000-to-2003 range) for each country, it is expressed as the number of science and engineering articles published per year per million inhabitants.


Of 157 nations ranked, the U.S. ranks 12th at 707 papers per million. The top six are smaller nations, with Sweden at 1,137; Switzerland, 1,120; Israel, 1,018; Finland, 974; Denmark, 933; and the Netherlands at 800. The U.K., at 796, ranks the highest among larger nations at seventh. The worldwide average is 108 papers per million.

Divide the figures by a million apiece and you have straight per capita (with the rankings unchanged). The Jerusalem Post is a reliable source, but they are a media source and probably did not research this matter themselves. Instead, they probably got this information from sources such as this one that are from the Israeli government, who has a vested interest in exaggerating Israel's status in this ranking and/or has outdated information. The article from the American Chemistry Society, on the other hand, comes from November 2006 (after the writing of the JP article) and cites the source of its data – the National Science Foundation, an organization that is certainly qualified to do the pertinent research. They also have no apparent reason to rank Sweden and Switzerland (and not the U.S.) above Israel in this matter. So, if anything, the article should say Israel is third in this field. However, I do not believe there is a need to attempt to pinpoint its exact position. Israel's contributions to the sciences are already amply detailed throughout the rest of the section. -- tariqabjotu 13:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The argument is based on a string of false premises. The idea that The Jerusalem Post took its data from the Israeli government is completely baseless. Likewise, the claim that the Israeli government gives a favorable spin to the information (in other words, that it is lying) reflects only an editor's personal opinions and/or prejudices. Yet more questionable was the action, If there is a contradiction between two reliable, then either both sources must be presented (to comply with WP:NPOV) or it must be decided which source is preferable under the circumstances. Tariqabjotu's decision to remove the material altogether did not improve the article and thus was correctly reverted. Beit Or 16:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Likewise, the claim that the Israeli government gives a favorable spin to the information (in other words, that it is lying) reflects only an editor's personal opinions and/or prejudices. That statement, heavily implying that I am prejudiced against Israel and/or Israelis, couldn't be farther from the truth and is derived from a perfectly valid statement that covers both explanations for the ranking disparity. Anyway, I will bypass the diversion, and allow you to find a third-party scientific source with data more recent than that published by the American Chemistry Society and National Science Foundation that corroborates the claim made in the article. If you can find that source comparable to the one I presented, I will gladly concede the point made in the article.
But, in the meantime, let's look at the two sources we have – one from The Jerusalem Post and the other from the American Chemistry Society. One is a media source and the other is a scientific source. Which is more relevant to the fact? (The latter.) One was published less recently, in August 2006, and one was published more recently, in November 2006. Which source is more pertinent? (The latter.) One does not cite where it received its data and the other does (citing from an established scientific foundation, at that). Which source is more reliable? (The latter.) Thankfully, I don't have to wrestle with you over which of those questions should take precedence, because all three point to the same source – the one that places Israel as third by this measure.
If you want to talk about neutrality, neutrality would be call for saying its "either first or third" (which, in my opinion, sounds ridiculous for such a minor point), making a blanket statement that covers every angle (i.e. saying "it's among the most"; this could work I suppose, but again this fact is so minor), or removing it altogether. I chose the last option. You chose the option of using the less reliable, more outdated source. That's not just an issue of neutrality, but an issue of factuality. If anything, you should have placed Israel third. Try formulating a sentence that fits that in. -- tariqabjotu 17:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
First of all, let's get our facts straight. While the ACS article was published in 2006, it relies on data from 2001-2003. I don't know where the JP got its info from, but it is quite conceiveble that the data is from a later period. Second, the ACS article refers to "science and engineering articles", wheras the JP article refers to "Scientific" papers, so it's quite possibel that we're talking about apples and oranges. In any case, it was inappropriate to completely remove the section - at best , you could have changed it to "ranked among the top 3". Isarig 18:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I completely agree with Isarig; it was the action, not the argument, that was the most reprehensible. Beit Or 18:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

culture in israel

The culture section before I edited it was a disaster (and still needs much work). The English was poor and the information clearly written by someone who doesn't have a clue about Israel or Israeli culture. If someone has specific information that will improve it, fine, but going back to the nonsense that was there previously is unacceptable.--Gilabrand 17:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I've had enough. I've disagreed with you and others on pieces throughout the process of improving this article, but I have never resorted to back-handed ("Certain editors are trying to monopolize this page and push an Arab agenda"), presumptuous ("The phrase "I take issue" already shows me you are in a militant state of mind."), inflammatory ("If tariq tries to remove my edits, I will declare an edit war"), exaggeratory ("umpteenth time"), and simply insulting comments. If you think you can do better, be my guest. But perhaps you should also spend some time examining how destructive some of your comments have been. -- tariqabjotu 18:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't enjoy the battle, I assure you, but your methods of reversing what anyone else has written (and not only me), rather than putting in a correction where needed, is presumptuous, inflammatory and destructive, to use your terminology. If you think that another sentence is necessary to balance the article out, I can understand that and will gladly work with you to find a compromise. What I will not accept is these blanket reverts, accompanied by statements to the effect that I have ruined some great masterpiece of English style and historical accuracy that was there before. Oh, and my comment on someone else's user page makes no mention of you. Could you be jumping to conclusions? On the whole, the article is slowly improving, and I hope we can work together to make it better and more accurate. One of the major problems I see is that in trying to condense the information into a few sentences, causal relationships are being introduced that are inaccurate, such as stating that Israel is doing well in high tech and linking that to the influx of Russians with college degrees. Also, important information that is crucial to the development of Israel and Israeli mentality is being glossed over as unimportant. An example is the Adolf Eichmann trial, where the text reads as if he were some ordinary Nazi that Israel decided to execute just for the heck of it. Another example is leaving out major reasons for the outbreak of a war, as if Israel launches wars without any provocation. These omissions are unacceptable. If there were only one such instance, I wouldn't make a big deal, but the text is full of such inaccuracies and my goal is to correct them. --Gilabrand 18:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
  1. Skolnik 2007, pp. 132–232 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSkolnik2007 (help)
  2. "Israel". Country Report. Freedom House. 2007. Retrieved 2007-07-15.
  3. Template:He icon "Israel Population Statistics" (PDF). Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 2006-10-02.
  4. Jerusalem is the capital city and seat of government of Israel: it is home to the President's residence, government offices, supreme court, and parliament. The Jerusalem Law states that "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel" although the Palestinian Authority sees East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian State and the United Nations and most countries do not accept the Jerusalem Law, arguing that Jerusalem's final status must await future negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Most countries maintain their embassies in other cities such as Tel Aviv, Ramat-Gan, and Herzliya(see the CIA Factbook and Map of Israel) See Positions on Jerusalem for more information.
  5. "Global Survey 2006: Middle East Progress Amid Global Gains in Freedom". Freedom House. 2005-12-19. Retrieved 2007-07-01. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  6. "Israel". Annual Report 2007. Reporters Without Borders. Retrieved 2007-07-15.
  7. "Economy Rankings: Middle East & North Africa". Doing Business. The World Bank Group. Retrieved 2007-07-15.
  8. "Global Competitiveness Report 2006-2007". World Economic Forum. 2007-02-14. Retrieved 2007-07-15. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  9. "Human Development Report 2006". United Nations Development Programme. Retrieved 2007-07-15.
  10. "Israel". Index of Economic Freedom 2007. The Heritage Foundation and The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 2007-07-01.
  11. "An Interactive Map". Economic Freedom of the World. Cato Institute. Retrieved 2007-07-15.
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