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Revision as of 14:54, 26 August 2007

Ted Frank

Ted Frank (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Not a notable person Tbeatty 02:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

This person fails all the inclusion tests for notability of people. He is not the subject of substantial coverage. He is not widely recognized. He has not been the subject of a credible biography, etc ,etc. His inlcusion in Misplaced Pages appears solely related to his Misplaced Pages presence. He was targeted by MichaelMoore dot com for his edits on Misplaced Pages and his biographical details have been increased but nothing that substantiates notability. He is a lawyer. One of millions it seems. He has not achieved any notable awards that would warrant a biography on Misplaced Pages. --Tbeatty 02:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as nominator. --Tbeatty 02:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete this seems to have been created as a result of the Misplaced Pages mm.com debate, which really isn't enough for this to be an article. ATren 03:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: You *do* realise that the article was created two years ago, correct? Not related to the Michael Moore stuff at all. Risker 06:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes, I do, but until yesterday it was deleted - it had been speedied a while back and was only recreated in response to the Michael Moore/THF firestorm. I'm not assuming bad faith in any way, I just felt that the article had been uncontroversially deleted before this whole thing started, so it probably should stay deleted. That's all. ATren 08:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and speedily close nomination. Speedy deletion is only appropriate when an article does not claim the notability of the subject. The article as originally written claimed he was a "prominent" attorney; as nominated that word had been removed but there were links to comments and pieces by (but not about) him in major publications. I have re-added a statement that he is a "leading" advocate of tort reform, a comment that appears regularly in 3rd party sources throughout the 10,000+ web pages that mention his name. If deletion is at all appropriate it would be under the AFD process. However, I believe that too is unwarranted because the individual is clearly notable. I accept that the nomination is in good faith but if I may ask, please do not make assumptions about my motivations for writing the article (WP:AGF). I have no ax to grind and have not taken part in any of the Michael Moore Misplaced Pages debates other than to admonish all sides to take a deep breath. Although the Misplaced Pages debate alerted me to the issue, I wrote the article after conducting numerous web searches briefly reviewing who he is. Tort reform is a significant political issue in the United States, his organization is one of its major proponents, and he is a fellow and one of the leaders of the organization. He writes prolifically and his name is often in the news. Like it or not, a political activist can boost himself to prominence and notability by writing a lot, taking part extensively in the public debate in America, and catching people's attention. He seems to have done so. A comprehensive, encyclopedic coverage of the state of the tort reform in the United States should include information about this individual. Wikidemo 03:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • This isn't a speedy delete request, it is a normal AfD. The claim you added is from the law blog hosted by Wall Street Journal (a notable blog, but a blog nonetheless). Nor have I taken part in the MM discussions. I merely note the buzz on this article has been created by that link. That's a simple fact. That appears to be his main claim to notability here and it simply isn't enough. We don't regularly create biographies with such a low level of notability. For example, the author of the blog entry doesn't have a bio here, neither does Frank's counterpoint, John Fabian Witt who penned the op-ed that Frank responded to. Nor does the head of the ATLA, Jon Haber. Please don't see that as a call to create these bio's as that would be a WP:POINT violation. Of the three people who commented or wrote about this in the WSJ article, Frank is the least notable and the only one with a bio and it was substantially created after MM link on his home page criticizing Frank, not as a lawyer, but as a wikipedian. --Tbeatty 03:56, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
    • You know what they say about 'Foo'. That there are no articles on Witt or Haber have no force on Ted Franks article. Being on MM's page gives him notability the others dont have too.. •smedleyΔbutler• 04:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Well, I'd say Michael Moore's criticism wasn't only directly "as a wikipedian". But rather (and I had better phrase this very carefully if I don't want to spend the whole weekend arguing over it) that Ted Frank's prominence as a policy lawyer/professional ideologue made his editing noteworthy for examination of issues of conflict of interest. After all, having an absolute nobody edit the articles would hardly be worth a personal mention. -- Seth Finkelstein 04:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I agree with you that his association with AEI opens his edits for scrutiny for COI. Just as any edits by an AEI employee (or any organization) should be scrutinized. That is not an assertion of notability, however. It seems that Ted Franks prominence as a Wikipedian is what attracted Moore's ire, not his prominence as professional. --Tbeatty 04:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
        • The Michael Moore website item described Ted Frank this way: "Frank Defended Merck in Cases Concerning Vioxx The American Enterprise Institute is a Right Wing think tank" (I know an objection has been raised to that "Defended" wording, but even if a mischaracterization, the point here is that it's a reference to his legal work). He wasn't described in terms of "prominence as a Wikipedian". And indeed, he isn't "prominent" as a Wikipedian (though if things continue on the way they have he may soon be notorious as one - joke!) -- Seth Finkelstein 05:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
          • The objection raised by Moore is that he edited the wikipedia article Sicko 96 times. Heck if I just go by word count, it's lawyer = 7 vs. Wikiepida editor = 50.. But I'll grant that neither claim stands on it's own. He's a lawyer that edited the Misplaced Pages article 'Sicko'. He is still not notable even if Michael Moore doesn't like him. --Tbeatty 05:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Let's get real here, folks. In any other context there would be no question as to notability. He's a nationally prominent pundit. It is silly and strains credulity to claim otherwise. The only reason this is an issue is the flap over Michael Moore. If we removed that issue, his notability is not open to serious question. The guidelines list various nonexclusive factors and caution that none are necessary or sufficient; we are to consider the person's prominence. Specifically, is he worthy of note? The guy is relevant. He articulates the agenda for tort reform. He is all over the websites, print pages, and airwaves, and his high-powered little institution has the attention not only of the press and the people but our national government. As a media personality he makes press but the press does not write about his life because mainstream media does not cover itself. However, as an author and commentator he is clearly prolific and widely read. Look at his peers among the +/- 90 AEI fellows. Going through the list alphabetically there's Michael Barone (pundit), Roger Bate, John R. Bolton, Lynne V. Cheney, Christopher DeMuth, Thomas Donnelly, Mark Falcoff, David Frum, David Gelernter, Reuel Marc Gerecht, James K. Glassman, Jack Goldsmith, Michael Greve. I lose steam after G but skimming the rest I see Fred Thompson, Newt Gingrich, John Yoo, Allan Meltzer, Paul Wolfowitz and Robert Novak. To say that half of this band is notable and the other half is not, strikes me as saying that two Beatles are worth articles and the other two are not. They are all making the music and the audience is listening. Wikidemo 08:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep because there is absolutely no question that a person of this prominence ought to be in any serious encyclopedia that includes current biographies. That this was even nominated for deletion is making me laugh. --Dude Manchap 03:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete - Does not appear to quite meet WP:BIO, either generally or under "creative professionals". I'm also not comfortable with the circumstances of the page's creation. - Crockspot 03:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete Being a "Fellow" of AEI isn't exactly a high honor. The title is made for the media, and does not mean that they give him a office and a secretary. Being part of an organization that is notable is worth something, but I don't think this guy inherits notability as a result. The country is crawling with self-important "activists", but few are notable in the eyes of Misplaced Pages. MarkinBoston 03:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete There are sources, but none of the ones that are truly notable or reliable seem to actually be about him. Being a member of a notable organization does not mean notability, if it did every Wikipedian would get their own page-- which also leads me Crockspot's point that the page was probably not created with good intentions. --lucid 04:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Gee, thanks for telling me I'm acting in bad faith. Any comment that presumes bad faith should not be considered in this discussion. Wikidemo 08:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Keep He's not super-famous, but he's "director of the American Enterprise Institute Liability Project", and at a high enough pundit level to have e.g. a Washington Post Op-Ed. Seems to be well-known in his field of legal policy. He was also a certified Usenet Net Legend, and that ought to count for something. -- Seth Finkelstein 04:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

However, Frank made it clear to me that he doesn't want to be associated with those actions, if I understand his comments on my Talk page correctly. If I am correct, then that cannot be mentioned per WP:BLP -- & there is one less reason to keep this article. A pity, since that would keep at least one Usenet-related article from becoming a Featured Article. -- llywrch 07:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Strong keep and strong speedy closing He is by far notable enough for an article and this vote is an out of process and IMO for bad faith reasons. •smedleyΔbutler• 04:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • What is out of process and what is bad faith? --Tbeatty 04:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Thats just my opinion not an attack. You are free to disagree of course. •smedleyΔbutler• 05:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I didn't say it was an attack. I want to know how this is 'out of process' and how it is 'bad faith'. You didn't support these claims and they are not obvious so I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion. I can't really disagree until I know how you arrived at your conclusion. --Tbeatty 06:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Asserting bad faith in this situation is an ad hominem attack. Please keep your comments to the matter at hand. Repeated assertions of notablility do not support themselves. MarkinBoston 04:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. This is going to be an emotional discussion -- if you've been reading WP:AN/I for the last few days that shouldn't be a surprise. So I recommend to any Admin considering closing this AfD discussion to let it run the complete period -- otherwise it'll be sent to DRV, bounced back here & repeated. (See Sisyphus.) Not to say that this won't happen in any case, but I suspect it definitely will if someone tries to cut corners here. -- llywrch 05:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, the sources clearly establish notability. Everyking 08:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep This man is notable. Ignore the stuff he's been doing onwiki and look at the article. I do not believe that Wikidemo did anything in bad faith, I believe she looked up a public figure, noted he didn't have an article, and created one. Isn't that what Misplaced Pages is SUPPOSED to be about? WHy do we keep getting caught up in the ceaseless circle of someoneone does something, we get all angsty about and try to cripple our own work for the sake of drama? Come on people, even if you yourself would rather fight than write, at least don't stop other people from doing so. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete. The subject of the article is not so notable that we need an article on him in order to keep credibility as an encyclopaedia. The subject clearly does not want this article (which is attracting editors who have a personal dispute with him). And, as Jimbo says, Misplaced Pages is not here to make people sad. ElinorD (talk) 09:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Hmm? My understanding was that he deliberately took no position on the article's existence. -- Seth Finkelstein 10:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Referenced and notable. AR Argon 09:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. The references to his views—which he's supposedly known for—are not about his views at all, but rather about other subjects where he's been quoted, apparently because he works for a conservative think tank. This is all trivial coverage. Also, I'm certain that neither the creator nor the nominator acted in bad faith. Cool Hand Luke 12:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Are you saying the section should be deleted? I would tend to agree but we don't need to go through AFD for that. As some have commented (and is mentioned in the article) he has taken on many issues, probably many dozens, from medical malpractice to asbestos, so listing four in the section (Virginia Tech, Michael Moore, home foreclosures, and criticism of Misplaced Pages) is somewhat arbitrary, does not represent his more serious work, and may run into WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE issues. If that is a problem, why not simply delete or fix the section? It's a moving target, though. The article is being heavily edited, perhaps faster than we can keep up with in an AFD discussion Wikidemo 13:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, I think the section should be deleted, but that the whole article should be deleted because that's his principle claim for notability. As noted above, none of these articles are actually about Ted Frank or his views, so nothing establishes that his views are notable. I would change my vote if a source genuinely profiled him for being influential or notable on at least one subject. Then his work on that subject would merit inclusion in the article, and the article could have a place here. Cool Hand Luke 13:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, I was leaning to delete because I didn't think he's notable, however Wikidemo's arguments have swung me.--Toffile 13:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Mentions in reliable secondary sources are in passing, in articles where he is not the subject. Frank is not sufficiently notable, and the depth of coverage is not enough to support a biography. Tom Harrison 13:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep He is clearly notable. If I had an opinion about any of the same topics, none of the major news outlets that turn to Ted Frank would care. The article is well-sourced.--David Shankbone 14:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

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