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Primary sources

Please be careful in adding primary sources. If we add all the opinion pieces Frank has written, it might overwhelm or bias the article. We need secondary coverage per WP:WEIGHT. Cool Hand Luke 21:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. That Moore one is central to recent media coverage of guy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johanbach (talk • contribs) 21:34, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

No. It's not. Incidentally, be mindful of WP:SOCK. Cool Hand Luke 21:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

viewpoints?

Is this type of thing even appropriate for this kind of article? This really seems like a vanity article to me, but that is just my opinion. --Chuck Sirloin 21:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Nah, he is a notable far right American pundit. Johanbach 21:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, no, I dislike that section. Notable pundit or not, it has the terrible and easy possibility of turning into a place for Mr. Frank to simply be misquoted. If Mr. Frank is noted by multiple reliable sources as being critical of Misplaced Pages or of Mr. Moore, then include those references in prose. Otherwise, I support removal. --Iamunknown 21:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

This is on-target. The section reeks of WEIGHT problems. We could probably list dozens or hundreds of topics that he's spoken on, but we should only list those that have received reliable third-party coverage. Cool Hand Luke 22:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I already corrected one allegation that seemed to misrepresent the source. ATren 22:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed. --Iamunknown 02:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

And then reinserted. --Iamunknown 17:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyright-free photo

This page could use a copyright-free photo. If someone is down in DC perhaps they could ask Ted Frank; they may be able to reach him through AEI's website. --David Shankbone 21:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the images. They could be easily replaced by free ones of acceptable quality in terms of encyclopedia use. --Iamunknown 21:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

When one becomes available the fair use ones can be replaced.Johanbach 22:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, does the article really need pics until then? Or indeed does it really need two non-free pics? --Chuck Sirloin 22:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It positively can't have two, and even one is questionable. WP:NONFREE "Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available or could be created that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose." Question though: is C-SPAN public domain as a government work? I know the house and senate video is public domain, but am not sure about conferences. Cool Hand Luke 22:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the answer is "no". C-SPAN is apparently non-commercial, which we do not accept. Cool Hand Luke 22:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

There is a clear CoI of editors working on this article, this applies to all sides and you all know what it is but lets not talk about it. Now its a real stub we should all not edit it and let wikipedia take its course OK. 23:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Saying "EVERYBODY STOP EDITING OK" and "let wikipedia take its course" is a direct contradiction. Most of the work on Misplaced Pages is probably at least somewhat of a conflict of interest-- interest is what makes people want to edit things --lucid 23:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

POV on documentaries

I think this article should include his POV on documentaries. The film industry and buisness industries (like Bloomberg) do not consider IMAX movies, reality movies (Jackass) or concert movies as documentaries. That is their 'standards'. Ted (with no expertise in film at all) wrote an article published in several RW sites with a list of documentaries including IMAX, Jackass and concert films to argue that Michael Moores movies were not in the top 5 but much lower. This is a notable POV to include. •smedleyΔbutler• 23:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's synthesis unless you have a source commenting on his allegedly notable POV. Cool Hand Luke 23:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Unless Michael moore or someone else complains about it and we can quote them, we can't say that. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I dont see why it cant be included in 'recorded viewpoints' but Im no expert. •smedleyΔbutler• 00:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

If it was included, we couldn't add lines about how x organization uses a different methodology. Moreover, the "recorded viewpoints" section is a WEIGHT disaster already without including primary documents he wrote himself with no outside commentary. Cool Hand Luke 01:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Okay, I think I understand the reasoning now. Thank you. •smedleyΔbutler• 02:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion

He's simply not notable enough. Seems to be just a run of the mill lawyer. A good one to be sure but we don't have articles just because they are good. See Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Ted_Frank. --Tbeatty 03:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering when that would happen to this article. IMHO, he's borderline notable for being mentioned in the net.legends.FAQ -- but for some reason does not want that part of his life publicized. -- llywrch 05:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering about that. Do we have any reliable sources about this? Are you sure it's the same Ted Frank? The name doesn't seem so uncommon. I think it would be an interesting addition. Cool Hand Luke 12:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The person mentioned in net.legends.FAQ made 17,000 usenet posts in 1993-1995 from University of Chicago servers, and claimed to be a law student there, which narrows things down quite a bit. What does that matter? People did a lot of things on usenet in the 1990s they would rather not relive.... Wikidemo 13:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

A citation to the book Internet Culture has recently been added to Troll (Internet). It looks like a reliable source. It seems he was of the two most "notorious" AFU trolls (which, the book explains, had a different connotation back then: the other notorious troll was snopes). Would the FAQ itself be a reliable source? Cool Hand Luke 14:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that's GREAT. Ted Frank was one of the most notorious trolls on usenet in the 90s? So notable. Let's add it immediately. Can anyone else dig up more on this? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

But "troll" seems to have had a very different meaning back then, so different that I think we should specifically explain it. The book makes "trolling" mean something more like "telling inside jokes to expose newbies." Cool Hand Luke 15:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, i have mentioned that it has a different meaning. Also, I have just searched him on google scholar and discovered he's written a book as well. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I saw that book, but I think a different Ted Frank wrote it. We don't have a cite for his age, but he went to Brandies by 1988, and nothing suggests that he was already pushing 40. Maybe it was written by Ted Frank businessman discussed below. About the parenthetical for troll; I'm going to take a break and if it's still in the article later, I'll try to think of a succinct non-prejudicial way to write it. Cool Hand Luke 16:00, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do. Oh, and we can always ASK Ted Frank if he wrote it. :) He's not exactly incommunicado. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Very funny stop your harassment. 19:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Come again? Why do think that Dev920's comment constitutes harassment? --Iamunknown 19:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Iamunknown his constant linking of the two bits of information is harassment, read WP:HARASS. 19:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, I am officially asking you to desist from your ranting and harrassing of other editors. In the past two days you have done nothing but harrass and attempt to intimidate other editors because of your false and increasingly hysterical interpretation of WP:HARRASS. There is nothing wrong in asking a Wikipedian who happens to have an article on him to clarify details about his person. In fact, Ted Frank has no problem with this either because he happily responded to my question. YOU WILL NOTE I HAVE AT NO POINT CONNECTED THE TWO NAMES, even though his username is plastered at the top of this page. Stop, for your own sake, or at some point you're going to get yourself blocked. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

You just violated WP:HARASS agin just like you did by re-inserting the above tag. Its not my interpretation is ArbComs. 19:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Dev, I did that about a week ago. You can see his response on my Talk apge; in essence, he thought I was harassing him by asking the question, although eventually admitted that he was the same person. (And for the record, I do know that the word "troll" meant something entirely different then from what it does now. A sad case where a perfectly good word for a practical jokester had its meaning mangled so that it means little more than "vandal".) Of course, I wonder if by mentioning this I would be considered harassing him all over again. ;-) -- llywrch 19:28, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The Justice Department cited a paper he co-wrote on blocking patents and antitrust. That's not non-trivial coverage of Frank himself, but it does suggest he has some authority in this area (as opposed to his punditry on Michael Moore). Cool Hand Luke 17:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

How do we work that in the text? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

We should see what the original co-written article says, summarize that, and note that it's been cited by the DoJ in the footnote. I really should be giving this a rest for a while, but this is coming along nicely. Might have to change my vote... Cool Hand Luke 17:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind doing that? I've never had to cite a legal paper before. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. I really should do this later though. His full name also brings up some COA cases. Like his bio says, he argued for Indian tribes and game manufacturers—in both California, United States v. 103 Elec. Gambling Devices, 223 F.3d 1091, 1095 (9th Cir. 2000), and Oklahoma, United States v. 162 Megamania Gambling Devices, 231 F.3d 713, 719 (10th Cir. 2000). It also looks like he won an (apparently pro bono) INS appeal to get a refugee asylum for political persecution. I think this is all a little dubious per WEIGHT (all litigators have experience, and it's hard to tell what's notable), but appellate cases take a long time to prepare; more than op-eds, anyway. Incidentally, where did you get his birthdate? Seems like it should be cited. Cool Hand Luke 17:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

He's written it on his talkpage. I've been looking under his full name but I'm being distracted by other stuff as well. The whole not understanding law properly thing doesn't help either :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• I've just added the {{notability|Biographies}} tag because it is clearly needed even if the article survives. If the article is deleted this will be moot. --Doug. 23:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• And I've just removed it. I'm not sure why you think it is "clearly needed" but first, it is usurped by the AfD tag; second, consensus at the AfD is that the article does indeed meet WP:BIO. Let's not litter the page with redundant tags that lack merit, regardless. --David Shankbone 01:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

• Well taken. I gave a somewhat more considered comment re my opinion with my vote, but I accept your correction on my use of the tag.--Doug. 02:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Other Ted Frank

Interesting. Incidentally, another Ted Frank is president of Axentis. Comes up in news archives a lot—about as much as this Ted Frank, but with actual profiles of the man. I think it actually has a equal claim for notability as this Ted Frank. Can we add a heading stating that Ted Frank might also refer to the president of Axentis? There's no need to disambiguate unless someone writes another article. Cool Hand Luke 13:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not write a stub and add a hatnote? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 15:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. Ted Frank (businessman). Cool Hand Luke 16:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

You forgot to mention this Ted at that article but I have fiixed that. if this article survives its afd it should be moved and this page turned made inot a disambiguation page, SqueakBox 19:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure anymore. Google seems to think this Ted Frank is more notable (9 of the first 10 hits, I believe), and many articles about the businessmen appear to be press releases. This is probably an ok primary topic disambiguation. Cool Hand Luke 05:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

There is yet another Ted Frank, a lawyer at Arnold & Porter.--Doug. 04:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• I PRODed the Ted Frank (businessman) article - it doesn't appear he is particularly notable except, well, that leads a business. Ted Frank is a very common name, so there are bound to be many Ted Franks. --David Shankbone 04:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

And it get more complicated. Do a Lexis/Nexis search on "Ted Frank" for the past five years and one of the main guys you see in the first few hits is a 30-year employee of NBC named Ted Frank who was promoted to Executive VP:Current programs back in 2004. The NBC entertainment president said of him back then "No one in the programming ranks has been more of an advocate for our product and our network than Ted Frank. His institutional memory and strategic advice will be invaluable to me in his new, expanded role at NBC." Considering that he was overseeing The West Wing and a bunch of other shows, he's probably at least as notable as the president of Axentis. But then again until I read the article on that company I did not know there was such a thing as "Sarbanes-Oxley users." Point is I am not naming my first kid "Ted Frank (last name redacted)" in order to avoid confusion.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If the AFD passes as a keep, who's up for Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Ted Frank? A Wikiproject devoted to the many different Ted Franks in the world! --lucid 05:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Future editors may also find this link convenient: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Wikiproject Ted Frank. In the event these pages are created, my actions are join and delete respectively. Cool Hand Luke 05:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Frank's views on legal matters

The section on Frank's views is very, well, shallow at the moment. He writes predominantly on law and for blogs which express concern at excessive litigation. I added a sentence about his concern over culpability, but I don't know enough about class action and tort reform to make a good go of it. If anyone could look through his work and write something more meaty that would be good, and I shall alert WP:LAW that we need their help. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

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