Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:28, 30 August 2007

Welcome!

Hello Moulton, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
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• How to write a great article
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!  bd2412 T 04:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:BLP

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Please do not add unreferenced or inadequately referenced controversial biographical information concerning living persons to Misplaced Pages articles, as you did to Rosalind Picard. Thank you. Hrafn42 18:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

3RR

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Rosalind Picard. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. ornis (t) 04:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have a US or Canadian phone number I will call you. Email it to me and let me know.--Filll 04:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Moulton, please do not revert edits on the article. The rules (sorry I know you hate the rules) are that you cannot revert more than 3 times in 24 hours or your access will be blocked. You are well over that limit I am afraid. You can end up getting blocked for days, or even have your IP blocked. So just let things continue as we investigate. Do not get overanxious, or they will block/ban you.--Filll 13:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Removing or editing others comments

Please do not delete or edit legitimate talk page comments, as you did at talk:Rosalind Picard. Such edits are disruptive and appear to be vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. ornis (t) 14:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The vandalism was the insertion into the page of a controversial issue which has no bearing on the subject of the page. The material had evidently been inserted because some previous editors erroneously believed and took at face value some recent propaganda published by a Seattle public relations firm that had no connection to the subject. The previous editors evidently adopted the unwarranted assumption that the propaganda amounted to a verified fact.

Moulton 06:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Request to Misplaced Pages Administrator

Joshua, would you be kind enough to nominate an ombudsman or mediator to resolve a perplexing conflict between myself and User:Hrafn42 regarding alleged violations of WP:BLP? I am concerned about the recurring publication of libelous falsehoods causing serious harm to scientists and academics with whom I am affiliated. Please feel free to E-Mail me if you need further information. Many thanks. Moulton 05:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Ombudsman

I don't think I can help you out with that since having reviewed the issue, I completely agree with Hrafn42 and Guettarda and disagree with both your position and actions there. My advice is take some time to better learn how Misplaced Pages actually handles these issues then revisit the articles; I think you'll find then your concern is unwarranted. FeloniousMonk 05:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there a higher authority than you that I can appeal to?

Is there some way we can talk over the phone so that I can explain to you (or anyone else you care to nominate) what I am concerned about and why? I am frustrated by my inability to get to the ground truth in this vexatiously crippling rule-bound system, as it only seems to be able to get to what most editors happen to believe, without providing any reliable functional process for getting past misconceptions into the ground truth. Science itself provides such a functional process known as the scientific method, but Misplaced Pages doesn't operate on that paradigm. Instead it operates on an anachronistic rule-based paradigm that wobbles to what the most dominant Misplaced Pages editors believe. When it comes to characterizing living persons, that paradigm is demonstrably fraught with errors that are nigh impossible to fix.

There are famous cases in history when the vast majority of people held laughable misconceptions. But science is an arduous process, and many dedicated scientists have suffered grievously for having the temerity to displace a popular misconception with a superior theory grounded in evidence and reasoning.

Getting people to honestly question their assumptions and conscientiously examine both their assumptions and the evidence for them is one of the recurring challenges in science education.

As a science educator, it pains me beyond words to observe how badly we have failed to inculcate a scientific mindset into the educable public.

Moulton 13:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

For more information on how Misplaced Pages works, please refer to the highest authority on truthiness and wikiality:

Hopefully this helps clarify the inner workings of Misplaced Pages. :) (Coincidentally and conversely, one could also apply such theories to the re-emergence of creationism, i.e. it doesn't need to be true for it to become fact as long as enough people insist it is.) Romperomperompe 08:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your perspective and your levity. Please see Misplaced Pages and Ethics in Online Journalism for a more analytical version of the same sentiment. Moulton 12:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:POINT

Please make yourself familiar with WP:POINT and avoid stunts like this again . Odd nature 22:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

So-called "anti-evolution" petition controversy redrafted

Having had a look at your concerns, I've added a section Talk:Rosalind Picard#Anti-evolution petition controversy redrafted. Feel free to comment. Please realise that Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source, and can only reflect published information that can be verified from reliable sources. .. dave souza, talk 16:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your assistance, Dave. I'll go take a look at your suggestions now. Moulton 21:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:COI

If you have a close connection to some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article Rosalind Picard, you may have a conflict of interest. In keeping with Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a conflict of interest, or where such a conflict might reasonably be inferred from the tone of the edit and the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. If you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid or exercise great caution when:

1. editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with,
2. participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors,
3. linking to the Misplaced Pages article or website of your organization in other articles (see Misplaced Pages:Spam);

   and you must always:

4. avoid breaching relevant policies and guidelines, especially neutral point of view, verifiability, and autobiography.

For information on how to contribute to Misplaced Pages when you have conflict of interest, please see Misplaced Pages:Business' FAQ. For more details about what constitutes a conflict of interest, please see Misplaced Pages:Conflict of Interest. Thank you. Hrafn42 08:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I was not writing about a person there. I am writing about two competing practices. One is the practice, which I support, of adhering to the protocols of the scientific method. The other is the practice, which I abhor, of adopting the propagandist technique of negative reframing which is both dishonest and unethical. I am utterly appalled that you would engage in the insidious and pernicious practice of negative reframing, in gross and egregious violation of WP:NPOV. Moulton 09:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The statement which she put her name to was anti-evolution when she put her name to it, and it remains anti-evolution today. No reframing need be involved to reach that assessment. But regardless of that, you violated the WP:COI guidelines by making a controversial edit to the article on her, and none of your hair-splitting can change that fact. Hrafn42 09:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That's your personal interpretation, your spin, which agrees with DI's intentional negative reframing of a statement regarding the appropriate application of the protocols of the scientific method. You are free to engage in the insidious, pernicious, and unethical practice of intentional negative reframing if it pleases you, but it would be unworthy of an ethical editor of Misplaced Pages to adopt that abhorrent propagandist practice. Since I would rather see you in a positive light than a negative one (and the same for Wikipedians in general), I urge you to abandon the contentious practice of negative reframing. Moulton 10:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Rosalind Picard

If you want to change talk page headers in a situation where there's a continuing argument, it would be best in this particular case to discuss the proposal first and seek consensus to avoid any suggestion of disruptive editing. Thanks, .. dave souza, talk 11:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Dave: changing section headings seems to be a standard 'debating tactic' of Moulton's. He's already done it several times on both Talk:Rosalind Picard‎ and Talk:A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism‎. I think a n explicit warning is now warranted. Hrafn42 11:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

My paragraph was moved out of the section to which I had inserted it and into a new section which unfairly reframed it under a different headline. So I 1) moved my paragraph back to the section it originally appeared in and 2) revised the heading of that section to establish a more neutral POV framing the controversy in that section.

I take exception to framing a discussion by highlighting one side in the headline. A headline should be a non-partisan NPOV framing the controversy, not framing one side of a controversy. The questionable practice of negative reframing is at the core of the controversy over how to frame the context and interpretation of a statement made within one scope and context and then ballyhooed years later in a substantially different scope and context. Moulton 11:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Look, fighting with people who could well be your allies doesn't help to get the changes you want. Note that disruptive editing can lead to a block, as will 3 reverts in edit warring, so both of you please stop and think before making too many edits. .. dave souza, talk 12:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Plea

I do not know if this fighting with other editors seems like fun to you or not. I am starting to think that it does. However, I am asking you to just relax and cool it for a few days here. Let's allow the facts to unfold. Then we will have more information on which to base any changes to the article.

This is what I have been seeking now for a week, and why I stopped basically editing the article. When you get in these mini-edit wars, you make more cruft for others to have to read through, and you manufacture ill-will, as I fear you already have in some quarters.

I realize you are quite QUITE fervent about this, and have your own views about what Misplaced Pages is and should be and how it should be run and what rules it should have. However, your thoughts are just those; your own. Your ideas on how Misplaced Pages should run and what rules it should follow are not consistent with the way Misplaced Pages really runs, whether that is correct or incorrect.

Now if you want to change the Misplaced Pages culture and rules, if that is your true goal, you will not do it by the path you are taking. Become an experienced member. Learn a bit about the rules and systems in place. And the mechanisms for changing the culture. And then introduce your suggestions to the venues where they might do some good.

I have tried to shepherd you through this process. I have gone above and beyond what anyone would normally expect. I have your and Picard's and MIT's and the science community's best interests in mind here. I am not trying to pillory Picard. I am trying to gather more information so we can address all concerns. A win-win solution. Isn't that optimal? Isn't that reasonable?

I told you this a week ago. And I am telling you the same thing now. Let's work together, not at cross-purposes. Do not go out of your way to make the situation worse. Please.--Filll 11:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not fun. It's exasperating. I don't like to play competitive games. My joy is in creative problem-solving, not chess games.

The facts are unfolding, albeit slowly. In the meantime, doesn't it make more sense (from the point of view of Misplaced Pages) to hold off publishing controversial (mis)interpretations on the main page? What is the rush to publish potentially false and defamatory content derived from DI's pernicious reframing of a statement that six scientists view as an expression of the protocols of the scientific method (and not as an expression of support for any partisan political agenda).

My passion is for science and science education, and for functional systems. As you may know, my discipline is Systems Theory. I don't believe it is possible or practical to change the architecture of Misplaced Pages's structure, which is why I join with others who predict the failure of systems with that kind of dysfunctional architecture. That's a scientific prediction, grounded in model-based reasoning. I don't wish for Misplaced Pages to fail, but I fear it will fail for the same reason that any system with that architecture is doomed.

In order to arrive at a win-win (cooperative) solution, we have to shift the paradigm from an adversarial zero-sum game of competition to a positive-sum game of cooperation. As you may know, there is no known strategy for stimulating such a paradigm shift. I wrote about that in my essay on "A Beautiful Mind." To this day, I don't know how to solve that problem. That's one of the reasons I don't care for adversarial rule-based paradigms -- they generally yield zero-sum games.

I wish you had not taken the initiative to contact anyone at MIT. Your message was viewed as being part of the previous campaign of harassment of MIT people. I had to explain that you were not of the same stripe as the sociopaths who previously disturbed MIT staff with reactions to what was found on the DI web site. You see, that previous campaign of abuse and harassment, which caused considerable harm, ended up being investigated by the MIT Police, and now you have engaged in an act that, on the face of it, looks similar to them.

That's why I am seeking to get back to solving the original problem, which is lifting Misplaced Pages out of the trap that the DI sucked them into.

My plea is to cease and desist from publishing false and defamatory interpretations that play right into the hands of the DI. Keep in mind that DI is not just anti-evolution. It's anti-science. They are happy to undermine anyone in science, because science is against them from the gitgo.

A lot of people see DI as a tar-baby. They worry (and with good reason) that anything you do only draws you deeper into their tar-pit.

That's why I'm trying to avoid tackling DI directly, and do an end-run around them by establishing the critical thinking skills that enable a responsible person to sift scientific fact from political fiction.

I don't care if Misplaced Pages (like the NY Times) writes an article about political fiction, but it's crucial not to end up publishing an account of some political fiction as if it were scientific fact.

Moulton 12:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)