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--] 13:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC) --] 13:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

== Crucial aspects of reliability ==

Reading over the guideline I am surprised to see two essential aspects of reliability near completely absent from the description.
*'''Relevance'''. A reliable source should be written purposefully to inform about the subject they are being cited for. Passing references, asides and similar statements should not be used. When a reference is written specifically for the topic, the editorial focus (and therefore the "fact checking" and resulting "accuracy") is on that topic, helping to ensure the reliability of the information. For example, a book about breast cancer is not a reliable source of information about heart attacks, except perhaps are correlated with breast cancer specifically. The author could be a well-respected doctor, but the focus of the work is on breast cancer and cardiology is likely outside the author's direct expertise in oncology.
*'''Recency'''. A reliable source should represent ''current'' knowledge and views of the topic, including information and opinions about historical views. Out-of-date sources lack reliability, as they will tend to represent obsolete, disproved and inaccurate information in relation to current knowledge and views. A book about particle physics from the 1960s would be significantly out-of-date and out-of-step with a modern understanding of particle physics. A book about ancient Christian history from the 1860s would be similarly obsolete and contrary to the current understanding of the subject. There are surely exceptions to such a rule, but they are exceptions, not the common example.
Thoughts?

Revision as of 21:15, 31 August 2007

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Weasel words

Why is this article in the weasel words category? --Blue Tie 14:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Because of a comment by Itayb about half way past the page, where he cites another editor and points out a lot of alleged weasel words and POV in the citation. Not a very good reason, I suppose, but there you go. >Radiant< 14:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
    • In the guideline itself or on the talk page? If it is on the talk page, I don't see the tag as applying... we can be a weasly as anything on a talk page... different rules apply. Should we delete the tag? Blueboar 17:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
In which case, I will remove the tag. I really don't think such tags apply to talk pages. Blueboar 13:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I see the problem... Solved by adding "no-wiki" formatting to his flags.

Nick Baker (prisoner in Japan) exceptional claims

On the Nick Baker (prisoner in Japan) article an editor is using the "exceptional claims" provision to exclude information that was published in Metropolis (English magazine in Japan). The removed claims are here: Talk about the claim is here: . In this case my position is that the removed claims support the major claim that Baker lied to the public, and that the removed claims are not exceptional claims in their own right. Another way to put this is: do supporting claims on a BLP also need multiple sources?

I have had some confirmation that these claims are not exceptional before but the issue keeps coming up and I would be very grateful some more advice and comments. Thank you. Sparkzilla 06:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This item has been moved to an RFC on the article's talk page. Talk:Nick_Baker_(prisoner_in_Japan)#Request_for_comments I appreciate your comments. Sparkzilla 02:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

If the...FBI and GAO don't write Government Reports... who does?

The past two days have seen some pretty strange editing on List of groups referred to as cults in government reports with different editors giving different reasons why this is not a government report: Cover Page CRS Report No. 79-24 GOV 1/23/79 Addendum II CRS-45 and why the ...FBI and GAO don't write Government Reports... I'm sorry but that is a very odd statement, on top of odd logic implying it was my idea to remove them. I've been asking this editor and some others to explain why CRS a division of the LOC isn't WP:RS or WP:V. Can someone explain why it isn't a RS? (Granted it should not be used to imply that all groups in the report are still even in existence and those that are may have changed so it needs to be qualified.) I realize WP:V is discussed on that page, so I'm not bringing it up except to say that they are pretty easily verfied. Anynobody 09:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't read much of it without my eyes glazing over. Seems to me like much ado about nothing – an inability to distinguish between a "government report" and a "Government Report". I've read a great many U.S. "government reports" of a wide range of types, but I cannot recall ever coming across one called a "Government Report", per se. Usually if it is produced by a U.S. government organization or agency or employee (writing at the direction of a government official) and printed by the GPO, it's considered a government report. Perhaps those arguing against the contested "government reports" being "Government Reports" can provide a link to a U.S. Govt. site that defines what is and what isn't a formal "Government Report". All that nonsense aside, it's hard to credit the CRS and FBI as not being "reliable sources" as WP:RS defines them. Askari Mark (Talk) 00:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with your definition of a government report, and have asked them to provide some examples of their definition of a "Government Report". Their main contentions are that it should represent the opinion of "the government" and hold it's Imprimatur. They have also indicated a belief that CRS is a "private" arm of the LOC. The example provided of what they consider it to be was a Congressional report. When I pointed out that a Congressional report fails their own definition (it only represents Congress) it seemed to make no difference.

I've tried explaining that their are no reports which express the opinion of the entire federal government. Such a report would need to be from all three branches (Executive, Legislative, and Judicial) and that's not really possible because the Constitution, the only official document which affects all three, makes no provisions for it.

The whole situation is almost surreal because if they are right, all the articles citing anything produced by the government has gotta go. Anynobody 01:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I have dealt with the CRS from time to time. They are not a "private" arm of the LOC; more like they're the "dedicated" research arm of the Congress. They are supposed to be non-partisan, and their analytical products are certainly more respected than, say, those of the GAO. You are correct that the three branches of the U.S. government publish separately. I've never heard of an imprimatur for the U.S. government. I've only heard of the Roman Catholic church using it. We're a democracy, so we don't need to have such a thing. If there were, then there would be a formal government organization tasked with the duty to prepare, vet and promulgate a document reviewed and approved by all three branches, as well as to maintain the "official version". If the critics you're dealing with cannot identify this organization and provide a link to its website that confirms its charter, then it doesn't exist. End of story. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Government Reports are reasonably reliable sources, from any branch. I would not say that CRS is more respected than the GAO, but if either of them were less respected, the lesser respected service would still be a reliable source. There should be no problem using them as sources. --Blue Tie 03:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I really appreciate your input, Askari Mark (Talk) and Blue Tie. Do you know if anyone has ever doubted the reliability of this type of information? I found that there isn't much said about gov't sources, probably because it's assumed most people "understand". Anynobody 04:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

There are good reasons to doubt its REAL reliability SOMETIMES, but from WP:RS perspective, there is no reason to doubt it. If someone objects, they probably do not like what it says. In that case NPOV comes into play and they can find another source that presents a different perspective.--Blue Tie 04:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. Anynobody 04:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi. As one of those doing what Mr. Anynobody calls "pretty strange editing", I asked the Director of the CRS whether he writes "Government Reports" and I got a very enlightening response from his Coordinator of Communications. Please see Talk:Groups referred to as cults in government reports#Straight from the source, the CRS weighs in. Here is the interesting part:

    CRS, like the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the Government Accountability Office (GAO), as parts of the Legislative Branch, serve the Congress but do not “speak for it.” Only documents provided by these agencies pursuant to specific statutory mandates might be said to be “official government reports” – an imprecise term. Even those documents, however, cannot necessarily be said to “carry the weight or tacit approval” of the Congress.

    CRS reports represent our response to congressional legislative needs and in no way represent “what the legislative branch of government says” on a given topic. The 435 members of the House, the 100 Senators, and the delegates and committees that together make up the Congress have no single voice, save through legislation, nor has the Congress vested in CRS the authority to speak for it on any matter.

    So, do they write good reports? Probably. Are their reports respected? Probably. Do their reports "speak for the government"? Absolutely not! Their reports are no more "special" than the reports of any expert or academic. Remember please where Anynobody et al would use these reports. In an article entitled Groups referred to as cults in government reports and since we already have the more general article, List of groups referred to as cults, the opposing editors want to reserve the former for actual reports that bear the seal, literally or figuratively, of the issuing government. The CRS reports clearly do not fit in that category. --Justanother 00:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I think that you're going through some logical gymnastics to try to exclude something you don't happen to agree with. I've received lots of communications from government functionaries, and that reply is typical of the way these guys qualify everything they say. If we followed your reasoning to its logical conclusion, very few government-produced documents would be allowed as sources. For example, the reports of the Warren Commission or the 9/11 Commission would be excluded, because we couldn't say definitively that those reports "speak for the government", because I am sure there could be found a congresscritter or two that did not agree with the conclusions. - Crockspot 01:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Crockspot. That's one of the things I've been saying. Anynobody 01:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

No one is disputing that these reports are reliable sources that can be used in Misplaced Pages articles. They are, of course. The dispute is about the labeling of these as "Government Reports", as if they represent the view of the government or an official commission. When asked, the Coordinator of Communications of the CRS responded with this unequivocal statement: ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Mr. ----,


The Director has asked me to respond to your email regarding the “status” of CRS reports. While I’m not sure I can “settle an argument” for you, I can provide you some general thoughts regarding the role of the Congressional Research Service (CRS) vis a vis the Congress and the nature of its reports.

CRS works exclusively for the Congress of the United States. It has no public mission. All of its reports are therefore produced for and provided to Members who are then free to distribute them as they deem appropriate.

As you know, the Congress is a body made up of individual Members – Senators, Representatives, and Delegates – and there is no single voice for the Congress, either for the body as whole or for the individual chambers. Only through the passage of legislation can it be said that the Congress “has spoken.”

CRS, like the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the Government Accountability Office (GAO), as parts of the Legislative Branch, serve the Congress but do not “speak for it.” Only documents provided by these agencies pursuant to specific statutory mandates might be said to be “official government reports” – an imprecise term. Even those documents, however, cannot necessarily be said to “carry the weight or tacit approval” of the Congress.

CRS reports represent our response to congressional legislative needs and in no way represent “what the legislative branch of government says” on a given topic. The 435 members of the House, the 100 Senators, and the delegates and committees that together make up the Congress have no single voice, save through legislation, nor has the Congress vested in CRS the authority to speak for it on any matter.

_______________

(name removed)
Coordinator of Communications
Congressional Research Service


I would think that there is no agency of any sort that provides a report of the position of the whole government. They provide reports of the position of that agency. These are still government reports. But I do not think there is such a thing as a report from the whole government. The US has 3 branches of government and sometimes reports from one branch are intentionally created to counter a report from another branch. This does not make either of them unreliable for purposes of RS. The FBI will issue a report that is contradicted by the CIA. Which one represents what the "Executive Branch" says? Maybe neither. But they are still government reports. --Blue Tie 01:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I would argue that calling these "government reports" is misleading to our readers. The obvious connotations for a reader would be that a "government report" represents the view of the government, or an official commission appointed by it, particularly when such documents are placed alongside other documents from other governments reports (such as from France, for example) that are indeed official government reports. That is the dispute, Blue Tie. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

It appears that List of groups referred to as cults in government reports is a redirect to List of groups referred to as cults in government documents. So what's the problem? Maybe it should further redirect to List of groups referred to as cults in government-produced documents? This is hair-splitting to the extreme. Come up with a name for the list that suits everyone, and move on. - Crockspot 01:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, somebody messed up trying to undo a move... A suitable article name for its contents is surely the way out. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Next! :) - Crockspot 01:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Do I disagree that a 28-year-old report by an agency that does not speak for anyone has been cherry-picked to be included as something that appears to be the position of the United States government? Especially when it specifically is NOT the position of the United States govenement as regards Scientology, my area of interest. Well, yes, I guess I do disagree. And there is little point in renaming to "documents" as we already have the more general article. So what is the point? But we will sort it out. Your'alls help is welcome. --Justanother 02:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Attacking the source as outdated is a different ball of wax, and one you may have better luck arguing. Views do change over decades. - Crockspot 02:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The issue Anynobody wants it to be is whether CRS writes WP:RS. The real issue is the definition (or implication) of government reports. A government report, (at minimum suggests that it), represents the view or opinion of a government, or an official sub-section of a government which is authorized to release reports and opinions. The Congress would write and release Government reports for that sub-section of the Unites States government. The CRS works for the Congress and per an email from the CRS, it is not authorized, without specific statutory mandates, to write official government reports. The only question is whether or not the wiki-LIST implies the word official. I submit that a goverment report implies official. Lsi john 02:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The problem I see with interpreting the above e-mail in this way is that it suggests that, essentially, there is no such thing as an official government report, other than via direct legislation. This is clearly a meaningless distinction; if a phrase is being used without specificity and it can refer to two different things, one of which is exceedingly rare, I would say interpreting it in the broader sense is usually the correct thing to do. Specifically, the sense of "official government report" used in the e-mail above is a very restrictive one. The e-mail even goes so far as to suggest that the term isn't a particularly useful one. Why we should then interpret another term as meaning it by implication is beyond me. JulesH 10:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Justanother has a point about the age of the list report in question, which is why I've been saying it needs to be mentioned because indeed the groups may have changed. As a historical document though, there is no reason it should be excluded (discussing the phrasing of a source is all that's needed. Removing it is overkill and actually is against WP:NPOV. Anynobody 07:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

These emails are unverifiable and therefore completely moot to the article and the argument. I would think Jossi you'd be the first one to point that out. The arguments based on the emails would, if used to modify the article in any way, go against our policy. If the agency were willing to *post* their responses to their own verifiable website that would be a different situation.Wjhonson 19:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Curious question. Would it be considered WP:V if they wrote an email to wiki staff, objecting to the use of their report being cited as a government report? I have no idea if they would do this or not, I'm just curious, mostly for curiosity sake. Lsi john 20:06, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The essence of verifiability is that any editor *could* independently confirm that the attribution is accurate. None of us can confirm that wiki staff got an email. Just like none of us can confirm that you did. And none of us can confirm who sent it. Any of us however *could* confirm public records, newspapers, books, etc. Sometimes it might not be easy to do, but we could. However with private emails we cannot. Wjhonson 04:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The verifiability or otherwise of the e-mail is not an issue. It is not suggested that it be included in the article, as far as I can tell, so I fail to see where WP:V (which applies only to articles) comes into it. JulesH 10:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

My recent Edit

Lsi john added this to the guideline: It is important to note that, while 'Reliable Sources' is a guideline, and verifiability is a policy, neither should be used to justify including (or keeping) material in an article. Regardless of how well sourced an item is, satisfying the criteria for reliable source and verifiability alone does not provide sufficient reason to include material in an article. Common sense must be applied, and editors should ask themselves if the material being cited is both relevant and noteworthy.

- the following was originally to Anynobody's userpage, and was relocated here by him.

Lsi john 03:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Anynobody, with all due respect, I do not appreciate being followed to WP:RS. Due to our past history, I believe it is inappropriate for you to revert my edits in unrelated articles.
I will be making a slight change to my edit and putting it back. There are numerous editors and admins who watch that page and it would be more appropriate for them to revert my edit, if a revert is necessary.
As there are a sufficient number of other editors who watch that page, I believe your revert is COI and borders on stalking and harassment. Please leave the edit for someone else to handle.
Thank you.
Peace in God.
Lsi john 01:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Lsi john, I was actually editing there first so "following" somehow fails to describe the sequence of events.
As I said in the edit summary, your edit should have been discussed on the talk page first. That being said if you do add your comment to the project page, without discussing it on the talk page, I'll revert it again. In a WP:3RR situation it's up to you to prove a consensus when adding new material. Anynobody 01:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Anynobody, as I said on your talk page (which you moved here), given the large number of people who watch this guideline page, your immediate revert was unnecessary. Regarding discussion first, the page says do not make major changed, it does not say 'do not make any changes. My change was not major.
Given our edit history, it was COI for you to revert my change here. There are a substantial number of other editors and admins who can revert if my edit is not in keeping with wiki policy or guidelines.
Wiki says be bold and I was bold.
Lsi john 02:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a guideline that says "It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow." Your addition was not bold, it was presumptuous. A single user should never assert what is "generally accepted". Please revert it and start a discussion since it plainly is not a minor edit. 2005 02:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not see this as a major change. It does not have any impact on what WP:RS is. It does not change or affect what can be included in an article. It merely clarifies that WP:RS is not justification to include something. The material being cited, must also be relevant and notable. I have opened a discussion about this below. Lsi john 02:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Adding a full paragraph to a fairly short document is obviously a major change. If it's not a major chnage, you'll easily get a consensus. The world won't catch fire in the next few days while is is discussed. 2005 02:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
To clarify, as I said below: if you disagree with the statement I added, then you are saying WP:RS IS justification solely by itself to include or keep material. That would imply that you would agree to including citable plumbing facts in sewing articles, solely on the basis of WP:RS. Lsi john 02:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Please focus on the issue. You should not make a major change to a guideline without starting a discussion. Whether or not it is a good idea is irrelevant. Discuss it, then if it gets agreement it will be in the document because it DOES represent a consensus, rather than an unsupported edit by a single editor. 2005 02:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
2005, I apologize for projecting the Anynobody situation onto you. I have no problem with discussing at all. In fact, my post to Anynobody clearly stated that a neutral editor was welcome to revert me. Based on my frustration at being reverted by someone with COI, I responded to your post with frustration and that was improper. As i said above, I have opened discussion below. Lsi john 03:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm honestly not trying to hassle you Lsi john, after all I didn't say it couldn't ever be added just that it needed discussion as 2005 is saying. Are you forgetting that even though it's a guideline the entire wiki will be using it? WP:BOLD applies to articles, not policies and guidelines. If it did, I could boldly remove all of them and cite it as an excuse. Anynobody 04:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Is RS sufficient justification for including (or keeping) material in an article?

In my short history at wikipedia, I have witnessed a large number of editors revert with edit comments like: "the material is highly sourced", "do not remove sourced material", "highly sourced".

To me, these seem to be falacious and circular arguments. Based on the fact that so many of these arguments are presented in edit-comments for reverts, it seems to me that there is a general misunderstanding and misapplication of the WP:RS guideline.

For example, if WP:RS is justification for including material, then we could include the fact that a second stage scuba mouthpiece works at roughly 100psi, in an article about the mating habits of the North East Woodpecker.

Because so many editors are using WP:RS as a reason to include or keep material, it seems that there is a general misunderstanding of what WP:RS is and what it is not.

By giving a definition for what is acceptable, it is basically a guideline for what not to include.

It is not a guidline for what to include. And does not provide justification for including material solely on the basis of WP:RS.

I believe that it will be both beneficial and helpful to the wiki community to include a brief paragraph on this in the guideline.

Lsi john 02:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Answer
Yes, with very few exceptions, one of which I will discuss. The ONLY time a WP:RS should be automatically excluded or removed is if it has nothing at all to do with the article.
Example of appropriate removal
Removing a NASA report on space debris from an article about Napoleon.
Example of inappropriate removal
A CRS report outlining perceived cults operating in America and abroad circa the mid to late 1970's in an article discussing groups identified as a cult in government documents.
There are probably other exceptions I haven't thought of. Anynobody 06:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Anynobody, this really has nothing to do with that article or that debate. My question is Is it ever appropriate to justify material solely on the basis of Reliable Source? Your answer contained the provision that it must also be relevant to the article, which is exactly what my proposed wording says. Not meeting RS would be a reason to remove something, but simply meeting RS is not sufficient justification to include or retain it. Lsi john 22:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
My question is Is it ever appropriate to justify material solely on the basis of Reliable Source?
Actually sounds more like you're asking if WP:RS should ever be allowed to trump WP:V or WP:OR concerns. There are several policies and guidelines which could conceivably affect the worthiness of a source for inclusion. (For example, a source for an article on a living person must also meet WP:BLP concerns.) I must also point out that the clarification you provided probably should be added to the section title in order to replace the question that's already there.
Is RS sufficient justification for including (or keeping) material in an article?
Yes, with very few exceptions. Anynobody 04:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion to modify WP:RS Lead

Specifically I suggest the following wording be added as a 3rd paragraph:

"It is important to note that, while 'Reliable Sources' is a guideline, and verifiability is a policy, neither should be used as sufficient reason to justify including (or keeping) material in an article. Regardless of how well sourced an item is, satisfying the criteria for reliable source and verifiability does not provide sufficient grounds, by itself, to include, or retain, material in an article. Common sense must be applied, and editors should ask themselves if the material being cited is both relevant and noteworthy."

Lsi john 03:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, this seems a bit pointless to me. WP:RS and V are about what types of sources it is appropriate to use, relevancy is another question altogether and it would seem to me that it's already self evident that material added to a page must be relevant to the article topic. Gatoclass 07:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Gatoclass, to be honest, I agree so much that I would have used the word silly rather than pointless. To me, the difference between relevant and reliable is clearly obvious. In the same way that WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA are obvious, yet both of those exist in order to guide editors toward resolution.
I see 'numerous' editors cite WP:RS as the sole reason for restoring material, even when the reliability is not being challenged. Perhaps it is isolated to the the area of contentious articles where I edit, but it is done often enough that I believe a paragraph here might help clarify the issue and thus help to reduce edit warring. Which is, afterall , the purpose of guidelines.
is one quick example where an editor (whom I do not know) uses WP:RS as the reason to keep an article. There are countless others but I did not feel a litany of examples would be productive. (I can produce a quick dozen or two if anyone requests). At the very least, it won't hurt to include this text. And at its best, the wording will help remind editors in highly contested articles to address and discuss the issues rather than using WP:RS as 'justification' for reverts and edit warring. Lsi john 12:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Your example is a non-example. Several editors have commented that the article is noteworthy independent of there being RS or not. There being RS is a requirement, but not the sole one, and it's not the sole reason for Keep votes on the AFD either. Wjhonson 20:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps I didn't explain very well (that happens with me too often) I wasn't debating the value of that article. I was only referring to this one specific reason given for keep:

"*Keep. This death was discussed in reliable sources, so it should be included"

With the multitude of other reasons s/he could have cited, s/he chose WP:RS. This speaks directly to what I have seen numerous times. It demonstrates that people use WP:RS as a justification, which it isn't. WP:RS is a requirement, not a justification and just because something meets WP:RS does not mean we must include it.
Specifically, rather than look at my example, what is your opinion of the wording I have proposed? Lsi john 21:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't like it. And I'll tell you why. Once an article has passed muster to be in Misplaced Pages at all, trying to fall back on noteworthiness for each detail would basically say, we can't include the birthdate unless it's exceptional, we can't mention their occupation unless it's unusual, we can't say where they were born unless it's extraordinary. It's not the material in the article that must pass noteworthiness, it's the *subject* of the article. Once that bar has been passed, the material of the article should only be required to pass undue weight. Wjhonson 04:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
You raise a good point. Specifically I'm speaking about articles that have not 'passed muster' but are still under development. I used the AfD as an example, but I see WP:RS cited far too often in regular article editing rather than addressing the objection to the material which was deleted. To me, citing Notable or Relevant would at least address the issue. Citing RS doesn't. And, even for articles which have passed muster, it would be just as easy (and more correct) to cite notability or relevance. Lsi john 19:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
For example, in the article on Anna Nicole Smith we can mention that she had a daughter. Not because having a daughter is noteworthy, but because the article is meant to be a biography and children are part of your life story. Wjhonson 04:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Lsi john are you assuming that the article in your example is failing some other policy or guideline?. If it isn't, WHY NOT cite the reliability of the source? A bible is WP:V but not a reliable source on science or anything of a concrete nature that can be reliably quoted by it. Anynobody 04:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Anynobody, I'm not assuming anything at all about that article. RS is a requirement for material to be included. Relevantce or Notability would be justification. Using a requirement as justification is an invalid and circular argument.
Arguing to keep information on the mating habits of the raccoon, in an article on airplanes, based solely on the fact that the information is reliably sourced, is obviously absurd and everyone sees it. However, in less obvious examples, it seems that some editors believe RS is justification. When material is deleted based on Notability or Relevance, the specific objection is ignored and RS is cited as justificiation for a revert. It is simply a bad and circular argument.
My desire to add wording is for clarification, not to change how anything works. Lsi john 19:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a problem with this proposal--the link to WP:N creates a circular reference, because there it says:

...These guidelines do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by other Misplaced Pages's guidelines, such as those on the reliability of sources...

I would also avoid referring to that guideline anyway, as it has been perpetually disputed. I think the point about relevance is valid, but such a long winded lede is over-the-top. A brief mention in the body, or a footnote should suffice. Dhaluza 10:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not hung up on how it gets worded. I just believe that some clarification should be included in order to preclude using RS as justification (see above). Lsi john 19:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
We could just add the word relevant to the opening sentence:(Changes in bold)

Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable and relevant published sources. This page is a guideline, not a policy, and is mandatory only insofar as it repeats material from policy pages. The related policies on sources are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:No original research, and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point-of-view.

Anynobody 01:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

We could, except that doesn't really address my concern and would raise additional concerns by tying relevance into RS. I'm suggesting a disclaimer statement which clarifies' that RS is a requirement but is insufficient as justification. Lsi john 01:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

You do understand that this guideline refers to the sources used in articles, if you're concerned about WP:RS being used as a justification to keep an article in a WP:AFD you really ought to be voicing these concerns on Misplaced Pages Deletion Policy. Up until now I assumed you were talking about sources which WP:RS covers, justification to keep an article is not what WP:RS is about. Anynobody 01:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion, but you have misunderstood and misstated my concern. Lsi john 01:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please correct me where I've interpreted your proposal and example incorrectly. Anynobody 01:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Per your request I have corrected your interpretation. Lsi john 02:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
You are saying that WP:RS is not justification on it's own to add or keep a source in an article. There is no policy or guideline that can be used on it's own to justify inclusion though. A source that is only WP:V does not justify inclusion, no more than a a solely WP:RS source would. Anynobody 02:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Yep. Now you've got it. And, since quite a few people do cite RS as justification, I believe we need something here to let them know that its insufficient. Lsi john 02:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
That goes back to what I asked about your earlier example, as long as a source also meets WP:V and isn't WP:OR why not cite the nature of a WP:RS? If the source in your example didn't meet WP:V, then one could point that out to an editor arguing for the source's WP:RS. Anynobody 02:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. And to help prevent editors from incorrectly citing WP:RS as justification in the first place, a short comment on the WP:RS page which better explains that WP:RS should not be used as justification. How about giving a hand with the wording? Lsi john 02:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I think such a statement would be too restrictive. There are probably times when WP:RS shouldn't be cited, but there are many more times when it would be acceptable. Suggesting it should not be cited assumes the exceptions define the rule. Anynobody 02:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Name one single situation when WP:RS alone, by itself, is sole justification (not permission) for adding or keeping a citation, where no other reason applies. Lsi john 03:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Now you are misunderstanding me, if a source meets WP:V, WP:RS, and is not WP:OR citing the WP:RS as a particularly strong point in favor of the source is fine with me. If a source doesn't meet WP:V, but is a WP:RS and isn't WP:OR and an editor argues the WP:RS is strong; All you need to do is point out that it can't be verified per WP:V. Anynobody 03:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I asked you to give an example where WP:RS can be used as the only reason for including material. You added WP:V, which I'll concede. Are you willing to stand by this statement unconditionally, without bringing in any other requirements? A simple yes or no will do.

"If a source meets WP:V, WP:RS, and is not WP:OR citing the WP:RS as the only reason for including or keeping the source is fine with me."

Lsi john 03:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Which again goes back to the example you tried to use and my question about whether it failed other relevant policies and guidelines. No single policy or guideline by itself can justify a source. As long as it meets all necessary requirements, citing one requirement as an especially strong reason to keep said source is ok. Your idea about saying people should not cite WP:RS ignores that aspect and is too restrictive. Anynobody 03:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Why do you continually change my words? I never once said that people could not cite WP:RS. I said that WP:RS cannot be used as the only reason for adding or keeping something. But people are using it as the only reason. My suggestion doesn't change anything. It clarifies exactly what you and I are both saying.
Hopefully someone else can explain this to you, because I really don't know how to explain it in any other way. I'm sorry. Lsi john 03:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, never mind. I think your claim that WP:RS, alone, can be used to justify including material only further illustrates the need for a statement here. WP:RS is not justification. There are lots of reliably sourced things which are not relevant, not significant, and not important.

Justification is a reason, which stands on its own merits and needs nothing else to support it.

WP:RS only means that the person who said it is qualified to make the claim. WP:V means that the information is verifiable. If material isn't WP:RS then we can't include it. But just because it meets WP:RS doesn't mean we must allow it, and thus WP:RS isn't justification.

I really can't explain it any better than that. Perhaps someone else can. Lsi john 03:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Lsi john I think a table may make explain my point better: (Relevance of sources is assumed in this table)
Source WP:RS WP:V not WP:OR cite WP:RS?
1 Most situations
2 Exception (rare)
3 Ineligible
4 Ineligible -
5 Ineligible
Numbers 3, 4, and 5 are ineligible so editors should not be citing ANY of the policies or guidelines it does meet.
Number 2 is an exception, since WP:RS is a guideline it is conceivable that a source which doesn't meet it could be included.
Number 1 represents most of the sources included. In situations like this, citing the especially reliable nature of the WP:RS is perfectly acceptable.(Note: I don't mean to imply citing compliance with WP:V or WP:OR should not be done, I'm just not mentioning citing either of them as justification because this would be the wrong forum for it.)
The only time what you're suggesting is true and WP:RS should not be cited as a reason to keep/include a source is during exceptional situations like Number 2
Remember the last three are invalid regardless of which valid policies/guidelines are cited. For example, saying Number 4 is WP:V would be irrelevant because it's WP:OR. The same would apply to Number 3 when citing WP:RS, since that source is also WP:OR it's invalid so NO policy or guideline it does satisfy could save it.
Proposing that an exception scenario can invalidate the majority of situations is too restrictive which is what you are saying should happen: Because WP:RS can't be cited in each and every case it should not be cited at all. I am saying that it can more often than it can not, therefore restricting it's usage is over reacting and places restrictions which are unnecessary on editors. Anynobody 22:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Anynobody, I see no reason to continue going back and forth. You keep rewording my point and then arguing against your version. Your table doesn't show any case where WP:RS is the only argument. Lsi john 11:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully, Lsi john I never said WP:RS by itself (without passing WP:V and WP:OR concerns) was enough justification to add or keep a source. This is why I've asked several times if your statement is assuming a source that does meet all requirements or not, see above table for specifics. I guess I just figured everyone understood that a source has more than one requirement to satisfy.

The irony is by claiming that I am saying only WP:RS needs to be satisfied, it is in fact you who are trying to change my words. Anynobody 22:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Misuse of online voting

CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and other news sites regularly have online votes on a whole range of issues. Although these news sites are generally considered reliable sources, these online votes are completely unreliable. The news sites even state that they are unscientific polls. The problem is that online voting contains very significant self-selection bias. Some political campaigns specifically email supporters and ask them to go the the news sites and "vote for candidate X" after a political debate. I believe Misplaced Pages needs to clearly state its policy regarding the use of unscientific online voting. These unscientific poll results are already being used in the some of the articles about Presidential candidates. --JHP 07:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

We are discussing deprecating "how to create policy", because frankly, we don't. Instead, just discuss with people. In the case of these polls, if there are no better sources, you may have to make do with those polls, but you should attribute them. People can probably decide on the reliability themselves, though you could add a note or so if you want to be really sure. --Kim Bruning 21:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

A follow-up: The reason unscientific polls should not be used is because they are not reliable. To quote the Misplaced Pages article on the subject, "A voodoo poll is an opinion poll with no statistical or scientific reliability and which is therefore not a good indicator of opinion on any given issue. A voodoo poll will tend to involve self-selection, will be unrepresenative of the 'polled' population, and is often very easy to rig by those with a partisan interest in the results of the poll." --JHP 03:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent issue with reliable sources

Recently a number of experts testified that there might be some issues with our reliable sources guideline, at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/James D. Nicoll (2nd nomination).

While many wikipedians interpret this guideline as saying that this article is either "non-notable" or has no "reliable sources", experts in the field have been so kind as to point out that this is a notable person who deserves an encyclopedia article.

--Kim Bruning 18:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Kim Bruning, can you point to a diff there that illustrates your claim? I see lots of discussion and opinion about whether or not the sources met WP:RS, but I didn't see that issues with the guidelines were raised. Whether or not the sources that are cited in that article meet WP:RS wouldn't necessarily affect the guidelines. I'm not sure that I'd agree with some of those editors who were saying 'not reliable source' regarding some of the sources.
Are you suggesting a change to the WP:RS guideline? Lsi john 19:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, Let me provide a link on the AFD, so interested folks can drop by, and maybe explain for themselves :) --Kim Bruning 19:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
To be clear, the problem in this case was that an Usenet source on this subject was not seen as reliable, as per the guidelines when in fact this was the primary source and highly relevant to the article in question. The guidelines as they currently stand promote a mistrust of Usenet as source for anything, without considering the context. For example, Usenet can be a good source for things that happened on Usenet --Martin Wisse 19:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the main issue most people had there was that many editors were disputing the acceptability of usenet sources to substantiate that the subject of the article is, essentially, a usenet celebrity. Clearly, this kind of source ought to be considered acceptable, as it is the medium such sources are most likely to be published in. Other issues were the recent removal of a number of self-published sources from the article that had provided key biographical details about the subject. Clearly, again, these should be accepted. There is little or no doubt that they were originally written by the subject, and if he isn't authorititive on (e.g.) his own date of birth, I don't know who would be. See, for instance the comment by User:121a0012 . Also see User:Shimgray here and User:Pnh (Patrick Nielsen Hayden) here (although his comments speak more to notability requirements than reliable sourcing requirements). Also see Shimgray here and User:Bth here.

The other comment is that when we're writing an article about a subculture that doesn't get discussed in traditional reliable sources in very much detail, the type of source you need to use is likely to be non-traditional. This doesn't mean it's unreliable; in this case the reliability of the sources wasn't questionable, only whether or not they conformed to the rules. Frankly, that's not how this project is supposed to be run and there's a good reason for that. One of Misplaced Pages's strengths is that it can harness all of these unusual sources to provide coverage that is much broader and much deeper than any other encyclopedia ever has. We can cover the personalities of online science fiction fandom if we want, because there are authorititive sources that talk about them. Unfortunately, the rules we have here (and, to a lesser extent, at WP:V) tend to get in the way of that. JulesH 20:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

JulesH hits the nail on the head, particularly about "traditional reliable sources". The "printed matter uber alles" attitude of some editors risks Misplaced Pages missing the opportunity to give useful, notable, verifiable information on subjects that people might well expect to find here, simply because they're not of interest to print media. I've recently changed my user page to explain a thought experiment on just how silly this is; anyone interested can go and have a look.
I was particularly irritated in the particular AfD we're discussing here by the assertion in the nomination that LiveJournal links weren't acceptable as a source. WP:BLP states that a subject's blog can be used a source on the subject given certain conditions, all of which are satisfied by the James Nicoll's blog, which happens to be hosted on LJ. I'm fairly prejudiced against LJ myself, as it happens, but that opinion is irrelevant to the sourcing question.
Having said all which, the fact that these things keep seeming to come up over and over again every time I get within a mile of returning to Misplaced Pages has crystallised my disenchantment with the current state of the project. I don't feel I have the time, patience or emotional energy to fight this fight myself. I wish the best of luck to those clear-sighted people who have kept their eye on the main goal of Improving Misplaced Pages as opposed to sticking to rules for the sake of sticking to rules. --Bth 20:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
See also WP:SELFPUB Lsi john 20:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
On the contrary, I tend to think that WP:SELFPUB might need some tweaking, if we are going to go by the letter of the policy. There are clearly otherwise going to be blind spots if we decide to categorize stuff that goes on in non-traditional media as part of the sum of all human knowledge. We may wish to tweak the policy about reliable sources if we wish to report on things that happen in contexts that sources traditionally regarded as reliable just don't report on. Are there, for instance, traditional reliable sources that talk about the Green Card Lottery spam incident on USENET in a reliable way? How about any other source but the Village Voice for the Rape in Cyberspace (LambdaMOO)? There's stuff that happens on the fringes that might be important that may or may not have reliable sources, but which we may decide in consensus we want to/should keep around for posterity, right here. --MalcolmGin Talk / Conts 20:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
No doubt. But then there is always WP:IAR. heh. I'm not saying that I don't think improvements can be made. (See my above.) But in the end, I think that it comes down to common sense. Lsi john 20:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
We've dealt with many USENET-related articles, including some about UENET celebrities. See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/alt.romath and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Romath, for example. Likewise we get articles about radio personalities full of assertions that can be verified by users who were listening to the program on a certain day. Again and again we return to the principle that if a topic is hard to source using proper means then the answer is not to bend the rules but rather to question whether the topic is truly notable. Someone who is known only within USENET is probably not notable in a general encyclopedia. I should also mention that using USENET as a source is also problematic becuase it is a primary source and subject to misinterpretation, fraud, omissions, and other sourcing issues. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 21:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Usenet may be either a primary or secondary source, depending on the exact post you're talking about. I see no reason it should be treated differently to a blog in this regard. In some cases it may be difficult to verify who posted the information, but for cases where the identity of the poster has not been called into question I see no reason not to use it. JulesH 22:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
IAR when used for unique or very rarely occurring special situations is a good way of avoiding rule creep. For things likely to repeat frequently, it has to be considered emergency first aid: it will deal with the article immediately at hand in a reasonable way, but after that it's an indication that we need to adjust the definitions or interpretations of the guidelines. Articles on web phenomena or things or people documented only on the web are not a rare phenomena. We need a consistent way of dealing with them, so the encyclopedia-worthy among them can be kept, and the unnotable one deleted, without arguing it all from the beginning each time. What we need to adjust is RS and WP:WEB. Some of us saw the need before, but it seems to have been necessary for a really unequivocally indisputable example to all to see the absurdity of the present situation.
We're building an encyclopedia, and the ore principles hold. Everything else should be interpreted to lead to the goal--building an encyclopedia, not arguing about what to put in it. Will would have us adjust our common-sense definition of notability until it matches the existing rules. With all respect, he's wrong this time. We should adjust the rules to match what the editors and the readers recognize. Primarily the readers, because we're not building an encyclopedia as an academic exercise, or primarily to improve our own skills at writing and argument, but to be used. Perhaps useful is the real foundation of the principles and the rules. DGG 21:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The reason that notability is tied to sourcing is that anybody who is notable should have already been noted, and without reasonable sources we can't write NPOV articles. The policies all fit together. In this case it appears we have a single expert, who is apparently an acquaintance of the subject, asserting with no evidence that the subject is notable and should have lots written about him. While the expert may be right that the subject should be notable it isn't our job to correct the errors of society by noting him. If we begin to say that inadequate sources are sufficient to establish the notability of people we know in our hearts to be notable then we have no longer have useful standards. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 22:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you clarify what you mean by "single expert .. asserting with no evidence" in this regard? Looking at the AfD I see multiple professionals in the field (PNH, Scalzi and Stross) speaking on Nicoll's behalf, along with attributions to multiple published works quoting him. The fact that he gained his notability thru Usenet suggests that those wanting to learn more about him will want to reference Usenet sources. LisRiba 22:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The issue here isn't one of a single expert with no evidence to back him up. The issue is that there is a whole swathe of sources about this subject that are being disregarded for no good reason, other than the technology that was used to publish them. Every single statement in the article in question can be sourced to one or more usenet posts. Additional statements not currently in the article (e.g. that he is a leading SF blogger) could be sourced to blogs (which would require a stretch of the circumstances where they are acceptable sources, but I think a reasonable one).
Furthermore, if an expert asserts that a topic that he is not directly connected with is notable, why do we need any more evidence than this to keep an article? Yes, delete an article if it cannot be sourced (which clearly isn't the case for this article), but don't say that it is because it isn't notable. JulesH 22:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't aware that user:Scalzi is an editor, and co-worker with user:PNH. Even so, being friends with prominent SF editors or being quoted in multiple blogs is not a sufficient basis for notability. While Usenet sources may help readers learn more about subjects (so long as we can be sure that the Usenet postings are legitimate) they are not reliable sources for establishing the notability of the subjects in the real world. Having friends in the blogosphere does help recruit supporters, though. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
What happens if notable persons make public statements saying "This dude is notable" ? ;-) --Kim Bruning 23:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought this was supposed to be a discussion about sourcing, rather than notability. Nonetheless, if you want to talk about "standards for Misplaced Pages", one question is -- is this person(or thing) somebody/something people will want to look up? In this case, the subject is well known for a quote -- well-known enough to deserve a page in Wikiquote, and people trying to source the quote want to find out more about the author. Furthermore, since the quote has often been misattributed (including to a historic figure of the same name) then within the Wikiverse there's a need for further information. Does that make sense? LisRiba 23:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The definition of notability incorporates the definition of a reliable source by reference. I think this part of the argument is best handled over there; my guess is that the best solution is to use a less-rigorous definition of reliable source for this purpose. But we would still be able to delete articles as unverifiable if there were no reliable sources by the definition there. Which is normally interpreted to mean the same as the definition here. JulesH 08:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Who determines what "in the real world" criteria? There are numerous entries in Misplaced Pages on subjects that are not very well known to the world at large. How many people outside Usenet or some portions of the Internet know (or care) about Ed Conrad, Alexander Abian, Joel Furr or Kibo? The fact that Nicoll is well known to a good portion of the online science fiction community, to the point where people will object to the removal of his article, is in itself sufficient proof that there should probably be an article. Given the lengthy articles on fictional people, some of whom are minor characters in novels, films and TV shows, that people complain about a real person seems a tad absurd.Keith Morrison 00:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Will, why does "notability of the subjects in the real world" enter into the question? Why shouldn't WP include articles on subjects that are important to a particular subculture (in this case the Usenet community) on the say-so of members of that subculture alone? (Assuming the subculture is, in itself, notable.) I think the heart of this is stating: for information on a subculture, prominent members of that subculture should usually be regarded as reliable sources, however they choose to publish (whether that be in magazines, newspapers, blogs or usenet comments). This applies equally, in my opinion, to sourcing (non-contentious) statements within an article and determining whether or not that article is notable. JulesH 08:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The thing about noticability is that it always has to be considered in context. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the ultimate encyclopedia, not just a replacement for a general knowledge encyclopedia like the EB; which means that for every suject mentioned in here that everybody has heard of (e.g. history of Rome, or George W. Bush or whatever) there will be zillions of subjects most users and editors will not have heard off. To judge whether one of them is noticable enough to keep, you need to look into the context of such an entry, rather than deciding because it has never been mentioned in the NYT it's not noticable.--Martin Wisse 13:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the notability angle, this also highlights a problem with approaches to verifiability: over-zealous (and selective) insistence on policies intended to improve the accuracy of articles can actually have the reverse effect. I'm afraid this comment turned out longer than I'd intended...

Let's start with a bit of heresy: notwithstanding BLP, it is absurd to insist that every bit of data - even in a living-person bio - can or should be cited, and not a single Misplaced Pages editor actually does so. Looking at George W. Bush, the first paragraph alone contains half a dozen uncited facts. No citation is given for his birthdate, that he's the oldest brother, that he's the 43rd President rather than the 42nd or 44th... I could go on, but you get the idea, and you will find similar uncited material in any BLP worth reading.

This is not for want of scrutiny; it's because applying that standard of citation would make it so tedious to write new material on Misplaced Pages that nobody would do it. Further, even if we could do it without effort, waving a magic wand at the article to get everything cited, it wouldn't actually be an improvement. The only thing we'd achieve is to bury the article content under an unreadable mess of citations.

So let's agree that this is not a desirable or achievable goal (I may change my mind on this if somebody can show me even one featured article where all facts are cited). Let's also agree that as far as controversial information is concerned - anything where there is a reasonable likelihood somebody might be upset by what the article claims, anything where two editors in good faith maintain a disagreement about a fact in the article, anything that puts a significant positive or negative light on somebody - cites are in order.

Those two points acknowledged, it's time to take a more pragmatic attitude to uncontroversial information, and in particular to first-party sources. On controversial points, first-party sources are unsatisfactory for reasons that don't need explanation. On uncontroversial points - minor biographical details, etc - they are probably the most reliable sources we could look for.

As an example, the article on James D. Nicoll (best known from USENET) listed his birthdate, citing a USENET posting by Nicoll as the source. Leaving aside the point that most birthdates given in WP have no citation at all and this doesn't seem to bother anybody, it is absurd that this sort of citation should be rejected without some evidence to the contrary. Is there a reason why somebody else would impersonate Nicoll and lie about his birthday? Is there a reason why Nicoll would lie (or be mistaken) about his birthday? Is there any risk of Nicoll suing WP for defamation in the event that it is mistaken about his birthday?

If not, then perhaps we should be treating this sort of information as more reliable, rather than less, on account of its source. (And I would suspect that most of the 'reliable' sources we customarily accept as authorities on such things just take the subject's word for it anyway, unless they are known to be untrustworthy; I don't know of a lot of journalists who go around checking birth certificates as a matter of course.)

Here's another example: the article on Patrick Nielsen Hayden, a well-known SF editor. On January 27, an editor added a large chunk of material to Hayden's bibliography; along with a lot of correct information, it contained an error: it listed 'Yolen and Greenberg' as editors on a book where it should have listed Yolen alone.

The error sat there undetected for two months until Pnh - i.e. the subject of the article - corrected it. In response, he was asked not to do this sort of thing, but to go through the more roundabout path (and less obvious to a newcomer) of posting on the talk page to ask that somebody else do it.

If he had been posting about awards he'd won, sure. But on a minor point of fact which the guy can be expected to know? At best, this attitude encourages people to correct their own entries anonymously, or nudge a friend to do it. At worst, it hurts accuracy by discouraging those who are best placed to correct this sort of detail from doing so. These are hardly isolated incidents; every time something like the Nicoll AFD kicks up a discussion about this somewhere, I hear half a dozen stories about people who've given up on trying to correct uncontroversial data in their own articles - like, say, the spelling of their name - because of the opposition to first-party edits. It's hardly going to stop the unscrupulous ones, who'll just create a sock.

When Misplaced Pages started out, this sort of thing was less of a problem. Put simply, anybody who was notable enough to be mentioned in WP probably had better things to do than edit it; when somebody did edit their own entry, it was often for bad-faith reasons. With WP's growing profile and importance, there is more and more legitimate reason for notable people to take an interest in their own articles. While acknowledging the potential for bias on certain types of information, we should welcome proofreading of uncontroversial data by the people best qualified to do so. --Calair 02:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Footnote: As I should've noted before, WP:BLP does allow some circumstances in which first-person sources may be used, but these would still exclude both the examples I gave above. The first requirement is that the information in question "is relevant to the person's notability" - which rules out things like birthdays and the exact spelling of somebody's name - and the third is that it "does not involve claims about third parties", which the Hayden example does. --Calair 04:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Reliable Source

I invite comments from expert members on this forum about defination of reliable source in context of forced divorces there is a discussion about a blog of a person who has stated that he was forcefully divorced by a cult group, this however is not accepted as reliable source by some editor's. Wiki say's clearly that blogs are accepted incase they are from reliable source, can anyone explain who can be a reliable source incase of forced divorces other then the person himself ?

--Shashwat pandey 09:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

First, I think you are not correct on blogs... blogs are generally considered unacceptable. There may be rare exceptions, but this does not sound like one of them (an expection for noted journalists and experts in an accademic field has some consensus... but is not yet part of Policy). Second, you definitely should be hesitant to use someone's personal blog... Such a source clearly falls under the "Self-Published" clause of WP:V and WP:RS... it might be useable in an article about the person claiming to have been forcibly devorced, but not in a general article on the topic. What I think you would need is a reliable third party report, such as a newspaper, that repeats (and has fact checked) the person's claim. Blueboar 12:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Tnx for the info.

--Shashwat pandey 13:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

If blogs are unacceptable, why do we have an article on Groklaw? --Kim Bruning 23:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC) I wonder if I'm violating WP:BEANS , WP:POINT and several as yet unwritten metapolicies by mentioning that ^^;;

If neo-nazi forums are unacceptable, why do we have an article on Stormfront? Because not everything with an article is an RS. Hipocrite - «Talk» 23:14, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Other wikis

Would infromation from another wiki (not from Wikimedia) be considered a reliable source or not? Ashura96 19:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Depends on who the author is. Hipocrite - «Talk» 23:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
In the vast majority of cases, no.--tjstrf talk 23:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I just wanted to make sure. Ashura96 23:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Revision/Addition to WP:RS

I'm proposing a clarification for WP:RS. The problem that seems to arise is that the policy, as it is now, allows for agenda-pushing. A good example of this is what has been happening for months on the Georg Cantor article. The debate is whether or not it is correct to categorize/refer to Georg Cantor as "Jewish." It seems that some sources write off Cantor directly as "Jewish." They're mostly Jewish-culture oriented websites, sometimes newspapers or magazines. However these sources seem to leave out the whole story, and when you read into Cantor's biographies you learn that his father was Lutheran, his mother Roman Catholic, his family somewhat anti-semitic, and only an ethnically Jewish grandfather to qualify him as "Jewish." In other words, he was neither self-identifying nor substantially of ethnic descent. A frequent excuse used to during the debate is that anyone who removes the categories/qualifications is being a vandal because they're removing sourced information (even though there is OTHER sourced information contesting it). This debate extends to many other articles and also is closely related to WP:BLP issues.

My proposal for a solution is to modify WP:RS so that a "hierarchy of sources" exists for biographies of people. Ones that are higher on the hierarchy are seen as more reliable for categorization and listing purposes. The hierarchy would be something like:
  1. Quotes and Statements from Person
  2. Official Published Biographies
  3. Newspaper Articles, Magazine Articles
  4. Reliable Websites

Is there any way we can get something like this into WP:RS? --Tellerman

  • Per WP:V The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. Jeepday (talk) 04:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
    • With a viewpoint like that, it's no wonder so many people consider wikipedia unreliable. All you need is someone pushing an agenda and looking as deep as possible for a source that could be called borderline reliable, and voila you get potentially misleading information. Newspapers and websites tend to ignore the specifics and just simplify details on people to a poor degree. I, and I think everyone should, apply WP:IAR to that part of WP:V. --Tellerman
  • For better or worse, I don't think there's any substitute for careful editorial judgment in these cases. Sometimes direct quotes are more reliable then biographies, sometimes the reverse; sometimes a (reliable) website or newspaper article may in fact trump all other sources because of being based on more recently-discovered data. -- Visviva 04:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
  • But if it's important recently-discovered data, it will appear in other more reliable places eventually. If it's only trivial, it's probably not even worthy of being mentioned on wikipedia. --Tellerman
Quotes are of course the most reliable for the person's opinions, but not really for anything else. Objective biographic sources are probably better for accomplishments, and I wouldn't rank "official" ones very high in the case of, say, political figures. Even for opinions, you can't use use any quote at all--by selecting the quote you can affect the meaning--it's a well-known art. But V not truth means or should mean that we do not have to prove its actually true, but that doesn't mean we should take something published which is likely to be false. There is no way to avoid the need for good judgment. DGG 06:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Remember the person's opinion on themselves is usually one of the most important aspects of their biography. To entertain the subject, let's say scientists somehow biologically prove a person to born a homosexual, if that person then says they're not, we shouldn't put them in an LGBT category. If there's relevance, it can be said "scientists said this and this" but the direct references should still stay off, whether the person is dead or alive (WP:BLP). If there is contradictory information, it should still be said, but not highlighted. Sorry, I might be doing a poor job of explaining. --Tellerman
  • Per WP:RS Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. In the example given you appear to have multiple reliable publication, placing a person in a category you do not agree with, there is nothing saying the person can not be in more then one religious category. Jeepday (talk) 13:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with Visviva: “For better or worse, I don't think there's any substitute for careful editorial judgment in these cases.” As well-intentioned as Tellerman’s proposal is, there are just too many exceptions to the rule to make it uniformly applicable. In the particular case of Georg Cantor, you’ve encountered an issue that can’t even be resolved in Misplaced Pages: Who is a Jew? Is it someone who practices Judaism or is it an ethnicity – or both? And who gets to decide the qualifications? Even for ethnicity there are religiously based differences of opinion on whether someone is ethnically Jewish – is it determined by having either parent a Jew or only through matrilineal descent? Ironically, some Jewish culture-oriented sources you mention will include as Jewish a person who is non-professing, although of solid matrilineal descent (such as an adoptee), and yet won’t touch a Messianic Jew of solid matrilineal descent. And what about someone like Bob Dylan who converted to Christianity but is no longer apparently a professing Christian (and may or may not have become a Lubavitcher)? About the only thing one can reliably and accurately say is “Oy vey!” Askari Mark (Talk) 01:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Dark Tea/Carleton Coon

I am currently involved in what is becoming an increasingly tiresome and long running edit-war with user:Dark Tea over material related to the mid 20th century anthropologist Carleton Coon, whose works DT seems to hate with a passion. I would be glad of some input, since DT keeps quoting WP:RS regarding Coon. It is worth nothing that some editors do treat Coon as a current "reliable source" on racial categories (see Nordic race for example). This is problematic to say the least, but the issue concerns inclusion of his work in accounts of the history of racial theories, as for example on the Australoid article. DT seems to want to delete all reference to the history of the theory (except, oddly Thomas Huxley) on the grounds that early theorists are not Reliable Sources. As far as I am concerned this is as barmy as deleting all references to Aristotle in accounts of the history of physics or biology, because Aristotle is no longer a reliable source on these subjects. Paul B 15:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that such a rationale is "barmy". I would think that early theorists would be the most reliable sources on what they believed/wrote. Imagine writing an article on Mein Kampf without being able to refer to anything it says. Editing out unpalatable or unfortunate "history" does not make it "go away" and is itself nothing more than trying to make and enforce a particular point. However, perhaps you could encourage Dark Tea to take the issue to the talk page, instead of both of you continuing with edit-warring and personal attacks. Askari Mark (Talk) 18:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate that my comments on Australoid may seem intemperate, but I have been over this in detail with Dark Tea on the Talk:Mongoloid race page. When she can't answer, she goes silent then repeats the same claims on another page. I'm not trying to scapegoat here, I just want some consensus to be established. Paul B 21:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Just looked into her edit history and she seems to be calling anyone who doesn't have a politically correct view on race a racist and using this as an excuse to remove them from wikipedia. Sounds like an extreme case of POV pushing to me. Carleton Coon is most certainly a reliable source by any definition of the term. Now certainly some of his views may seem obsolete decades later but all scientific view points get revised over time and there are certainly experts today who still believe in a lot of his ideas. And the notion of removing him from a historical discussion of human races is ludicrous. Secularrise 14:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. While I would add the caveat that references to Coon and his views should always be placed in historical context, the fact that he is obsolete is no reason to exclude him. Blueboar 16:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
That's right. I'm also not aware that too much research has been done since along the lines of Coon's - instead it seems to me (I'm no expert, so correct me if I'm wrong) that the whole line of investigation was dropped as politically suspect. What is current is population genetics, which using a different methodology, addresses the same underlying questions. That the word "race" is unmentioned or even attacked is superficial response to politically poisonous but intellectually insubstantial line of criticism.Proabivouac 20:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
His theories are so thoroughly irrelevant that I do not think he is a RS except in an historical context: I am not sure you could find any current mainstream support. DGG 07:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
From what I gather, that is how he is being used... in an historical context. As such he is reliable. Blueboar 12:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Blogs and web forums as reliable sources?

For articles about web topics, many of the most reliable sources are published online. Online magazines often call themselves "blogs," even though they have paid editors and reporters. We should not be biased by the publication media; our criteria should be editorial review and fact checking.

We do allow self-published sources for experts commenting in their field of expertise. We also allow self-published sources as primary references. As such web forums and personal blogs can sometimes be reliable sources, in some situations.

My concern is two-fold: (1) Can we improve our policies and guidelines so people understand these fine distinctions? (2) User:SandyGeorgia suggested that I start a thread here to draw more attention to Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Search engine optimization, a situation that needs comments on the reliability of online sources. There is a concern about promoting this article to WP:FA because it relies on web sources, but those are the best available sources for this topic. How do we resolve this? Jehochman / 16:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Jehochman, I'm going to be very busy IRL over the next few weeks, and may lose track of this; please ping me if you get any resolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I've moved this over to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for further discussion. Jehochman 01:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

whilst the strict "no blogs" rules are laudable, especially since it prevents linking to blogs that were set up last thursday (and are then never updated), this rule falls apart when we are dealing with the early blogs which now have 5 year (or more) archives. since a lot of political discussion is happening on the blogs right now, then to ignore the impact of blogs is a weakness in wikipedia entries. For if a story breaks on a blog and then ends up in the MSM, the wiki narrative only shows the MSM "reliable source" and not the blog that broke the story. Maybe , rather than the "no blogs" rule, might we have a "age rule" , where only blogs that have consistent archives going back 5 years are considered as a ref links? It is a difficult one to square I admit - as this could open up the floodgates and break the NPOV attitude of wikipedia. But it is becoming increasingly hard to ignore. What do others think about this? Joflaitheamhain 21:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

School newspapers reliable ?

We could use a weigh in at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/University High School (Los Angeles, California).

The article in question is protected after an edit war and we're now attempting to get consensus on whether or not school newspaper articles are RS. Until such a time... Miss Mondegreen talk  00:42, May 24 2007 (UTC)

I have restored this discussion after seeing User:Will_Beback incorrectly (imho) chastise Miss Mondegreen for Spam and canvassing, and after he pointed out that this RFC is already at WP:AN/I. I feel that is inappropriate. RS issues are discussed here, not an AN/I. A user should be quite free to post RFC's on RS issues right here and not be attacked for doing so. That is one of the main reasons for this discussion page. Wjhonson 02:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Reliable or not?

I'm involved in a dispute over whether any, all, or none of the following sources can be considered reliable. Any comments or opinions are appreciated. - Crockspot 17:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

MediaMatters usually includes transcripts or other sources as the basis for its articles, although it may be preferable to cite the primary source for a highlighted incident. Also, some of the cited content (such as radio shows) is ephemeral, or the MediaMatters site may most clearly summarize the situation. The other sources you list are prone to generate arguments about the source tangential to the content, so if there are less controversial sources you might want to use them instead. If there aren't any other sources, how about handling it case by case? --Sgorton 04:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I also think MM is a good resource for their video and transcripts (which appear to be accessible long after the story is no longer 'the news of the day'. They are undoubtedly reliable in this respect. I'm aware of their leanings though, and I don't think we should advance their POV (care must be taken to keep the overall wiki article NPOV). Traditional media should also be referenced (wrt transcript and video) for as long as it is available.
  • rawstory (for the most part I think) reprints stories available elsewhere, although they do have some original reporting which may require a direct cite from them. I think they've also made a move to increase their original reporting, which means their organization may come up more often in the future. In any case, I think they're reliable, so if the work is original to them, cite them as often as is relevent and needed, if it's a posting of somebody else's work, cite the original (AP, CBS, . . . etc.)
  • Haven't seen a whole lot of Salon. . .case by case basis where relevent I suppose. I think they're reliable, I just don't know. . . how often they would be needed in wiki-articles that don't concern themselves. disclaimer: I contribute to the Glenn Greenwald (Salon columnist) wiki-article. R. Baley 17:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

WorldNetDaily is famous for having a heavy bias, and they have a tendency to report stories not picked up anywhere else. I'd try to find a second source to corroborate anything they post in less inflammatory terms. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 15:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Media Matters is extremely biased. It doesn't just identify itself as liberal but rather as out to expose conservative lies. How much more biased can one be. When an article relies heavily on Media Matters as a source, it can be assumed that any other sources are either non-existent or other left wing hit sites. Media Matters is useful as a flag that anybody citing them is committed to promoting a POV at all costs.
  • I am unaware that WorldNetDaily purports to be NPOV.JoeFriday 03:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Reliability noticeboard

Per #A reliable source committee?, and to answer questions just as that above, I would like to create Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, where editors could post questions about whether given source(s) are reliable, and editors interested in reliability would answer. In essence it would be a non-binding RfC for reliability and a place to gather all discussions about specific sources, freeing this talk page to more theoretical discussions.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Good idea; might help solve an old edit war or two that flare up every now and again. ~ ONUnicornproblem solving 20:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I also like the idea. I've created the page with your nutshell statement of it's purpose. It would be good if you could add a link from the main article directly to that page, and also we should put a link at the top of this Talk page as well. Wjhonson 02:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Unclear status of Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/examples

This useful page - linked from here - seems partially forgotten, and has no clear status, I have labelled it with 'proposed'. See also my comments at relevant discussion page.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Also a good idea. If this is an orphan page, it should be linked from the main page and also linked at the top of this Talk page as well I'd think. Wjhonson 02:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record... much of RS/Examples page was copied and merged into the WP:Attribution FAQ... not all of it, but a large chunk. I see that there is a proposal to (sort of) "undo" that merge and bring the material back to the RS/Examples page. This is fine with me if that is consensus, but personally I think it is useful to have duplication of the examples in both pages. Blueboar 12:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Blueboar I'd recommend linkifying the examples off WP:Attribution FAQ to the RS/Examples page. That way we don't have competing example-wars. Wjhonson 13:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
As opposed to competing policy/guideline wars? Perhaps what we need is a single joint examples page, that both RS and ATT point to. Blueboar 14:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Make it so! I refrained from saying "Pikachu I choose you!"Wjhonson 14:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Not to do

Do not include the "tag" characters "<" and ">" in your comments. I just archived a piece of this page and those characters were in it, and totally whacked out Wiki when followed by something I suppose vaguely looked like a command or ambiguous expression. Well by "totally whacked-out" I just mean it cut off the rest of the page and threw-up some weird error in the text body.Wjhonson 14:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyone know exactly where I can report something like this to the Wiki-coding-monsters so maybe they could find a way to Wikifix the Wikimachine? Wjhonson 14:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Conservapedia?

Do we consider Conservapedia a WP:RS? I've noticed it's been used in some articles (e.g., ). My instinct tells me a tertiary source -- especially one that is self-declared as having a non-neutral point of view -- should not be considered a RS for objective information. Raymond Arritt 00:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd say no, Conservapedia is not a reliable source. I should note, though, that both of those article links listed Conservapedia under external links, not as a citation. --Alabamaboy 01:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Wikis are not considered reliable sources. The main reason for this is that one can never predict what one will get when they load a page. A reader could get a page that had been vandalized a few seconds earlier. As for the EL issue, WP:EL states in "links to be avoided, #12, Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. I can't think of another open wiki besides WP that I would consider qualifying by this criteria. Certainly not conservapedia, dkospedia, or any other wiki that has an openly POV editorial policy. - Crockspot 01:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Indeed... I would not even put WP in this category. But it comes down to this... Conservapedia is not a reliable source. Blueboar 12:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Pot calling the kettle black and blue--RCT 17:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course, it's not a reliable source by any normal standard.--Svetovid 13:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I was going to ask whether it is possible for any wiki to be considered a reliable source here.--h i s r e s e a r c h 09:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Al Jazeera

Is al Jazeera considered a reliable source? Thanks in advance, --Samiharris 16:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the answer is "it depends." Raymond Arritt 17:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking about its usage at naked short selling, where a program on the subjet was listed under "media coverage." --Samiharris 18:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
The statement being sourced is that they reported on it, at least at the moment. They are a reliable source for that.

Al Jazeera is seed funded by the Emir of Qatar how does that make it "reliable" over an individuals blog? Is it the case that Al Jazeera just has more money pumped into it over the individuals zero-cost blog, so therefore money infusion makes it more "reliable"? In other words , being a bilionaire buys you "reliabilty" on wikipedia?

They do have an editorial structure and a reputation for fact-checking and correcting errors. However, I agree with Raymond above and suggest that the source be named in the text, not just the footnotes, for controversial material. ←Ben 22:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Isn't this particular article concerned with the reliability of sources cited to support article material rather than with the character of the material in support of which sources are cited? Taking a step back from the point under discussion in this section, I looked at the article intro to find out what this article declared that it intended to cover, and did not find that info there.
IMHO, whether/when a supporting source needs to be named inline in the material citing the source is a matter to be covered in WP:V and/or WP:CITE, not here. IMHO, there is already too much blurring of the lines separating the territory covered by various WP guidelines and policies, and too much conflict between separate guideline/policy articles regarding points which are addressed in multiple independently-crafted and independently-maintained guidelines/policies. -- Boracay Bill 00:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Opie & Anthony

Another question: What about using the Opie & Anthony radio show, in the context of the "Criticism" section of Tucker Max?--Samiharris 18:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Sri Lanka related sources

Due to the conflict in Sri Lanka, we often experience edit wars centered around the reliability of Sri Lanka related sources. Earlier this year, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation started a section Classification of sources, which was largely respected across the spectrum of Sri Lanka related editors. Since these were only recommendations, it was inevitable that some day some editors would ignore them. This happened lately, which lead to a long, fruitless discussion on WP:ANI#Removal of RS sources. I pointed that discussion here because I believe this talk page is a more appropriate place for deciding if sources are reliable. — Sebastian 18:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I propose to split the problem in two (or more) parts:

What kinds of sources do we want to distinguish?

This guideline distinguishes two kinds of sources: Reliable and unreliable sources. For Sri Lanka conflict related sources, unfortunately, this distinction is often practically impossible. The reliability of many sources is constantly under dispute between the two factions. Compliant with the Misplaced Pages policy for Attributing and substantiating biased statements, the members of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation therefore decided unanimously to recommend a third option, which was called "Qualified Source" (QS). This option allows citing QS only with explicit attribution and an agreed qualification, such as "The pro-rebel Tamilnet.com reports that ..." (see details). This has been successfully implemented in many articles. However, the problem is that it is not an official WP guideline, so there are some editors who only respect this recommendation when it fits their partisan agenda.

Therefore, I hope that QS can become a guideline for Sri Lanka conflict related articles. — Sebastian 19:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. If all the articles in the scope of SL is to use this as a guideline it would benefit everyone. If this recommendation is not used by all parties who edit SL related articles then we will go back to the problem of distinguishing which is RS and which is not. Watchdogb 16:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think Sebastian’s ‘QS’ concept is a good first step toward at least clarifying which sources are “reliable” for at least the unexceptional fact, but subject to bias in certain circumstances and subjects; however, I suspect it may be too simplistic to be broadly practical.
Whenever the question “Is this source ‘reliable’?” is asked, it needs to be responded to with another question, “With respect to what?” Otherwise, the answer can only be “It depends.” Fundamentally, sources are reliable or unreliable with respect to their ability to provide an informed and objective treatment of the issue or fact in question. For instance, is Mein Kampf ‘reliable’ for Misplaced Pages’s purposes? It is a RS for Hitler’s political beliefs or a testament to Nazi philosophy, worldview and perspectives; it is not a RS for Jewish history or culture or belief systems or even for an unbiased (or even clear-headed) analysis and rationale on the causes and consequences of the First World War and Germany’s defeat therein.
To follow the ‘QS’ approach, I think we have to say it has at best limited applicability and only in those circumstances in which it is a significant resource in of itself. Mein Kampf would be a ‘QS’ for certain subjects related to WWII, the Nazis, German history, and so on, but it would be neither a ‘QS’ or ‘RS’ for anything having to do with Sri Lanka, for instance.
With respect to news media, at the trivial level, when it comes to incontrovertible facts like “2 + 2 = 4” or general news of no political significance, a source like Tamilnet (or German mass media publications under the sway of the Nazis’ Propagandaministerium) can be just as “reliable” a source as any other of the same type. (Keep in mind, though, that for Misplaced Pages, “reliable” does not necessarily mean all of the source’s products are “unbiased”.) It’s whenever events or issues are of political significance, or value judgments are being expressed, or opinions or interpretations are being presented (e.g., op-eds) that such sources become quite uncertain in their ‘reliability’ – except, of course, as sources for quotes representative of their “side’s” particular biases or as examples of propaganda statements regarding the topic.
Basically, if there’s no value to the publisher (or the government looking over their shoulder) to do so, there’s no reason to go to the effort to slant the story. Contrariwise, if publishing the story is likely to cost the publisher, then the reliability of the information sourced might be quite credible indeed. In short, rating a source as always being on one side of the “reliability” line or the other is a simplistic approach which WP:RS has taken for the sake of, well, simplicity. The better question to ask is, “Is XYZ a reliable source for this information in the given context?” Askari Mark (Talk) 02:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It's only reliable for telling us what the LTTE and other pro-Tamil groups think, and not for what factual event occurred or did not occur, or if some other people said something (or did not). Just like "a video was posted on a pro-Al-Qaeda website... stating some event/policy change, declaration, etc. This conflict is heavily covered globally and there are many, much more reliable sources.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The point is local media covers extensively about local events. We can not expect BBC international to cover all the events say in Tamilnadu which are important to local people. This is like saying we should only use BBC international as source for Tamilnadu related events and not Dinathanti (a local newspaper) Praveen 15:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, these are good points. In particular, I agree with the point of the Al-Qaeda and Nazi examples that sources can be reliable, but biased. I now realize that the concept of QS as we defined it may not be optimal because it lumped together reliability and bias, and we may need to distinguish between the two. However, this distinction opens a new dimension of complexity. Few cases are so black/white as Al-Qaeda and Mein Kampf. To stay with the example of Nazi Germany, and to illustrate the other extreme: Suppose, it's 1944. The Nazis successfully fooled the world. Suppose, a Jewish organization had published detailed reports of concentration camps, and one of our editors quoted from that. The Nazis, of course, would denounce the Jewish organization as "biased". Would we have to remove that information?

But let's move away from Nazi Germany, which was an extreme case. There is a wide range of uncertainty between these extreme examples, which probably is part of why we saw continuous edit wars (at least until we we defined QS). WP:RS curently does not address this dimension, so we need to spend some thought about how and where to draw the line. I now lean towards only allowing reliable sources, but distinguishing between:

  • unbiased sources
  • sources that may be seen as biased (or partial). These sources would only be allowed to be used with proper qualification ("pro-X").

The experience of SL conflict related articles shows that that would work as a guideline. I don't think we need to explicitly specify certain contexts of applicability; that was never a point of contention in the conflicts so far. (Presumably because it would be strange to contest a claim such as "party X killed civilians of party Y" with the argument that it's not pertinent to an article about terrorism and massacres.) — Sebastian 05:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I employed the Nazi example because it would be well-appreciated across a wide range of cultures (and to break away from the emotionally charged connections to Tamilnet in this particular instance). The “1944” scenario is interesting, but – assuming the Nazis hadn’t won the war, in which case there’d be no Misplaced Pages (or likely an Internet, for that matter) – Misplaced Pages can only draw from published sources perceived to be reliable; infallibility is not our standard, but rather correctability.
I would encourage you to please not abandon your ‘QS’ innovation, because it’s a useful tool in certain cases. I think the ‘QS’ technique can be useful in especially contentious situations and narrow application as with the SL/LTTE. If editors from a broad range of viewpoints can be brought together to form a consensus on the degree of reliability (in Misplaced Pages terms) of various commonly used sources, that’s a real boon in that you don’t have to keep arguing the RS issue over again and again and again and …, but instead have something to point them to. Bias does play into the reliability factor, but the “X says Y; however, Y says X” formulation helps us to deal with that. In fact, if you think about it, identifying and responsibly and appropriately employing ‘QS’ sources helps show that we are accurately capturing the full range of viewpoints; in short, it can be a tool to ensure NPOV, not just reduce time wasted in edit warring.
I don’t think we can usefully sort reliable news sources into “unbiased” and “biased/partially biased” bins. All sources are “biased” in some way, wherever subjective evaluation comes into play. I think what you mean to catch is something more like the following:
  • Automatically RS: neutral or disinterested sources – those without a “brand in the fire” which neither benefit nor suffer from one side or another being “right”.
  • QS (Sometimes RS): partisan sources – those which have a reputation for generally following mainstream journalistic practices except with topics where their obvious/admitted bias is “aroused” or “at stake”.
That isn’t perfect wording, but I think you can catch what I’m reaching for. ‘QS’ sources can then be handled as a provisional RS – where no better RS has yet been found – for non-contentious material, but as a “pro-X” (or “anti-Y”) quasi-RS regarding material that “resonates” with its bias. (This captures the ‘contextual’ side of the source’s reliability.) Thoughts? Askari Mark (Talk) 03:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
That sounds perfect to me Taprobanus 14:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I can agree with the idea of a QS... but not with your definition of RS. A source can have a "brand in the fire" and still be reliable. I see what you call QS as a subset of RS, not as a separate item. A qualified source can be reliable ... if nothing else, it is reliable as a source for what a particular group or individual says. Once again, we are dealing with the difference between a source that is reliable for factual statements vs. one that is reliable for statements of opinion. Both are reliabile ... but the second needs to be attributed in the text of the article. Blueboar 15:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems everyone agrees in the intent and the only disagreement seems to be in how to name what we mean. Blueboar is right that RS should be a superset, or put differently, all sources that are allowed in Misplaced Pages need to be RS. Now the distinction we need to make is simply that some RS may need attribution while others don't. The latter are what Askari called "RS", maybe we could better call them "RS/n" (where the "n" can stand for "no attribution necessary" or for "neutral or disinterested"). For symmetry, the former, which Askari called "QS" could be called "RS/a" (for "attribution necessary"). — Sebastian 18:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Blueboar, I agree fully. I wasn’t really trying to define ‘RS’ as much as winnow out the neighborhood of ‘QS’. What I was trying to do was lump non-contentious sources as automatically and unequivocally RS (inasmuch as unbiased sources are a moot point for this discussion), while defining QS sources as potentially and conditionally RS sources, depending upon how they are used (i.e., context). A QS source would be certainly be “reliable” as a source for what a particular group or individual says – but not necessarily so with respect to how they represent their opponents’ positions. If you don’t mind, I’m going to slightly redact (in bold) what I wrote to make it clearer. Askari Mark (Talk) 04:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
As I understand, the general position is that QS attribution be used only when any source is used to reference content, that maligns its 'perceived' opponents. One problem that we have to consider is how to find the perceived opponents... Praveen 14:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
‘QS’ would not be a broad application, but rather a tool to allow a broad range of editors to come to consensus as to how to treat certain contentious sources – especially newspapers and other news media – as potentially reliable sources, despite perceived bias, in terms of the context in which it is to be used. This is particularly helpful where several related articles are not only drawing upon the same sources, but in such cases only one side’s sources are available (like those in a guerrilla-controlled area). Based on the discussion here, ‘QS’ would be applicable to a source that is either notably biased against or a partisan toward another party under discussion. On non-contentious topics and on topics reflecting their side’s viewpoints, QS sources could be treated as RS, while on topics where their bias may prohibited a neutral and fair-minded treatment, they would need to be handled on a “X says A” basis – following which it would be fair to say “but Y claims B” for a balanced perspective. It’s a tool being experimented with at WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation; what we’re trying to do here is see if we can’t evolve it into a more formally described and practical tool for such disputatious cases for which few useful neutral, unbiased RS can be found. In these cases, a more subtle approach is needed than WP:RS offers – it basically tells us to march straight through the minefield, the torpedoes be damned. Askari Mark (Talk) 03:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I do not think we should see this as fixed categories. I do not think you could propose examples where there would be a sharp distinction. Even newspapers: the WSJ news section is one thing, the editorials another. The various NYT columnists are not of equal standing. BBC does very reliable news, and it also does a moderate degree of sensationalism. Even the worst source from a unreliable organization will tell us who the president is and when they were founded (though I can think of exceptions). "Nature" has published some pseudoscience from time to time, to maintain a show of impartial coverage, and has erroneously published some very obvious frauds as well. There is no way of avoiding individual analysis of the difficult cases. We do not need a straight-jacket. DGG 06:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
DDG, we’re looking at QS as a tool (not policy) to “remove straightjackets” through capturing a stable consensus of “individual analysis of the difficult cases” among related articles where a source may actually be useful (or even essential as one of the few sources available) and that source may be reliable for some uses but obviously subject to bias in others. Just like we don’t give carte blanche to WSJ or NYT op-eds, there are sources for which they’re “reliable” in some ways and unreliable in others.
In a recent posting in the section following this one, Nishkid64 succinctly and clearly captures the “traditional and proper” RS approach:
“Personally, I don't think if neutral reputable sources such as Reuters and Associated Press label Tamilnet as "pro-LTTE", then the site should not be used as a reliable source. Given that the website itself is called Tamilnet, and only reports on news regarding Tamil people and LTTE, I think there will sometimes be a COI in the news material the website publishes (which can be seen in some of the material the news website publishes). With a COI and a reputation of being a pro-LTTE news website, I would disapprove of Tamilnet being kept as a reliable source in these articles. Neutral sources that are not biased should be best used in these type of situations. I think the fact that there has been so much discussion about this speaks for itself. Not everyone agrees that the website is a reliable source, and given its controversial nature, we should avoid using it as a source.”
One of the problems with LTTE-controlled areas is that the LTTE doesn’t normally allow “neutral” reliable sources to wander around freely – even for general news that has nothing to do with the LTTE or Tamil-Sinhalese relations; Tamilnet reporters can, and sometimes it’s the only available source for what’s going on in Tamil areas. The “traditional and proper” approach is unquestionably the way to go in most cases; however, it leaves unaddressed how to deal with these exceptional “difficult cases” – other than constant warring over what sources are or are not “reliable” and then each time something is “settled”, have to start all over again with the next new editor joins the fray or turmoil in a related article boils over into “adjacent” articles again. WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation is an experiment in trying to resolve source issues in a central location and contain the RS issues there, while allowing the affected articles to progress in a more constructive and less contentious manner. Askari Mark (Talk) 21:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
  • "One of the problems with LTTE-controlled areas is that the LTTE doesn’t normally allow “neutral” reliable sources to wander around freely – even for general news that has nothing to do with the LTTE or Tamil-Sinhalese relations; Tamilnet reporters can, and sometimes it’s the only available source for what’s going on in Tamil areas." - I disagree. For starters, I am not too sure of the veracity of that claim and secondly, we do not need info coming out of LTTE held areas 24x7x365. We are not a news service. We are an encyclopedia. As an encyclopedia, we are only keeping track of the notable issues. If something is notable, I am sure BBC and Reuters will pull all stops and publish it. BBC and even the Indian media has covered the conflict extensively and I cant think of any notable issue that they've missed. Tamilnet otoh might publish every gunshot fired and grenade hurled, but we're not interested in that because, regardless of what else we'd use it for, I'd shudder to think of using it as a source to establish notability. To put it simply, if the absolutely reliable and reputed sources like BBC and Reuters and The Hindu, The Indian Express etc., are not reporting something that tnet alone is cooking up, then we also should not be allowing it on Misplaced Pages. The BBC, Reuters, Hindu, IE etc., have no axe to grind in the conflict and can be taken as impartial observers with impeccable credentials. tnet, otoh is a brazenly biased source with questionable credentials.
  • Almost every dispute on the Sri Lanka project traces back to these dubious sources. You flush out these sources and several of the disputes will settle themselves. First they use dubious sources like these and then they open wikiprojects just to keep track of the disputes! I've never seen anything quite like this on wikipedia. Sarvagnya 21:45, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

What kind of a source is Tamilnet?

I believe Tamilnet is a reliable source and it does not violate WP:RS because it has

  • 1. Editor (See source)
  • 2. Editorial board ( See source)
  • 3. Thorough review of information from reporters and removal of any suspect material.(See source)
  • 4. It is extensively used by news agencies such as Reuters, AFP and news organizations such as BBC, CNN as a primary source for information from Sri Lanka that is usually censored. (See source)

But it is also a biased source hence , it should be used with attribution. Following are the views of 3 neutral editors about this news site.

Thanks Taprobanus 17:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Tamilnet is a RS. This is simply because it has all the qualifications for it to be a RS.
After the discussion on the ANI other neutral editors have said that Tamilnet is a RS. The discussion is here. Watchdogb 16:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
No there isn't. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Do you have any information regarding it's Editor and it's Editorial board, Taprobanus? --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ 21:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks and did it 20:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.201.162.1 (talkcontribs)
:D Sarvagnya 23:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Even though news organisations quote Tamilnet they quote Tamilnet as a mouthpiece of the LTTE. the fact that they do not regard Tamilnet as a reliable source is shown by they always add to the bottom (Neither Governemnt nor LTTE (in this case claims made by tamilnet)claims can be independently verified))Dutugemunu 13:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

In response to Taprobanus' points, the People's Daily also satisfies 1 and 2. In respect to 4, many things that are not RS are used as primary sources by all sorts of reputable information. Otherwise where do all the journalists get all their leaked CIA reports, cabinet reports etc from...from backroom bureaucrats leaking bits and pieces. These guys do not then become reliable of their own accord.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as ANI goes, there is consensus by "neutral editors" that it is not RS. By neutral you obviously mean to exclude people from the ethnicities involved in the SL conflict(Sinhalese and Tamil). If that's what you want, then the only person who wants these websites is FayssalF. For those who think that these are lobby groups, we have Y, Dineshkannambadi, Sarvagnya, Nishkid64, Blnguyen, Sir Nick who are not of the conflicting parties. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Come on, dont put words into my words, I meant by neutral non Indians and non Sri Lankans, that mean excluding you and me who had the difference opinion to begin with, one neutral editor said it was RS with reasons another said it was not without any reasons. Because it was a negative from a neutral negative, I have invite him. Views from India centric editors such as you included is not neutral either way. It is biased one way or the other, further this is not a contest of numbers but ideas. Let us argue with citations not just our opinions.Thanks 17:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Wow! so it is you, an invested party to the dispute, get to decide who is neutral? That's logical and fair. Praveen 15:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Even the People's Daily seems to be better. They have editors and journalists who have the moral courage to attach their names to their stories. Not backroom zombies operating in anonymity and writing whatever trash they want with no accountability. For that matter, I might have a blog and I am its editor and editorial board. huh. Sarvagnya 02:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't count Sarvagnya as a "neutral editor", having shown his bias against anything Tamil. But, back to the point, the one suggestion I can think of is if we intend to disallow tamilnet.com because of its partisan content, we should disallow the pro-sinhala sites too, irrespective of whether they have an editorial board and what not. Lotlil 04:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
And nobody cares what an obvious sock of somebody thinks of an established editor like me. In all humility, my contributions to wikipedia are way more honourable than yours. All that you and your buddies Aadal and PP have ever done on wikipedia is stalk and troll me. Do you have anything else to show for yourself? Sarvagnya 06:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The biggest anti-Tamil, Kannada troll thinks itself as an established editor... What an irony! way to go ... Praveen 15:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Go for it. When did I ever say that Lankaweb or Sinhalanation etc were any good. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not saying you said anything about Lankaweb etc. All I'm saying is, if there's consensus among neutral parties that tamilnet should be disallowed, only because of its partisan content, we should use the same yardstick for all pro-Sinhala sources on the Sri Lanka related articles. This is just my opinion. Lotlil 05:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Good point. It relates to the example I just wrote at the end of the previous section. — Sebastian 05:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Tamilnet is not only partisan but it is invalid as a source for wikipedia purposes because it is not even a bonafide news service or website(flimsy pdfs that prove nothing notwithstanding). It is claimed that it has an editor and editorial board, but we arent told who they are. Nor has anybody demonstrated that they are affiliated to any 'official' press bodies and the like. In other words, I am not sure if we should be putting all 'partisan' sources in one basket.

For example, Times of India may be biased in some cases... they even have plagiarised from Misplaced Pages(Blnguyen's own content).. they are loved and they are hated.. but at the end of the day, we cannot wish them away as a bonafide source. They have editors and journalists accredited by relevant press bodies working for them and all the right affiliations. So we can be sure that there are checks and balances. We can be sure that they are held accountable by someone somewhere. Same with FOX. And CNN. And BBC and The Hindu, Deccan Herald(all of which have covered the Sri Lankan conflict and are as neutral as neutral can be in the affair). The same cannot be said of Tamilnet. Tell me, what is the difference between Tamilnet/tamilnation etc., and the random blog? Yes.. tnet and tnation may get a gazillion hits. But that can only make them "notable" not "RS"

Another reason why tnet and tnation are useless as sources for wikipedia is because, they blog about nothing but Tamil. Tamil-this, tamil-that, tamil, tamil, tamil. Nothing else. And afa Tamil is concerned, we dont believe them. Period. Not even with truckloads of salt. Is there anything other than Tamil related stuff on those blogs that we could salvage? I looked. But I didnt find any! Sarvagnya 06:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Your pathetic arguments continue... Is there any rule that if certain website speaks about only certain things, its not reliable? All local news channels cover local events only... Does that mean they are not reliable? There are independent thesis/reports made on reliability of Tamilnet. Do you have anything concrete or only your opinions? Praveen 15:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Just for the convenience of editors who did not follow the discussion on ANI, let me restate the evidence/independent research papers on reliability of Tamilnet.com.
A PHD thesis of Kasun Ubayasiri, Central Queensland University covers extensively Tamilnet. This is the conclusion that it derives.
"It can also be argued the Tamilnet success as internet based news service has been largely attributed to a unique position it has created as the only ‘independent’ provider of a reliable alternative view in the Sri Lankan theatre, one designed to counter the states rudimentary propaganda machine. Tamilnet has also adopted a reportage style closely resembling a wire service feed identified by western media practitioners as viable and reliable media. The prompt coverage of news both in the government controlled regions and those under the LTTE control has placed the a Tamilnet in the unique position of the being a news service with the widest coverage – a defining attribute in a media theatre dominated by Colombo and south centric media.Therefore it can be argued that Tamilnet’s strategy of providing pro-Eelamist news without any overt LTTE connections has yielded results and coupled with its reporting style and content, paved the way significantly wider coverage in both the internet and through international mainstream media, when compared with any other web based media Sri Lankan media product." here is the link
Same goes for Tamilnation.org. A simple search in google shows that tamilnation website is used as references in conference papers and other research papers. Associate press & BBC uses these websites as reference too. Praveen 16:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Just because the website covers news about tamils it does not make it a non realiable source. How about news that cover only Canadian/American/Indian news ? Are they not allowed to be used ? Pathetic. It is also noted that Tamilnet has fired some of its editors as soon as they became activists for the LTTE. Why would a propaganda site do such ? Because its not a propaganda site. It just covers what has happend. Tamilnet gets source from both the LTTE and the SLA. For instance if an attack happend then Tamilnet states "According to LTTE..." and then it also states "However, according to...". Another thing is just because another website that has editorial board and blah blah balh is not used as RS does not mean that Tamilnet cannot be used. Taprobanus said that because to show that it Passes WP:RS. Furthermore the fact that Tamilnet has an editorial board proves that it indeed goes thru fact-checking. Since it has all the requirments as a RS I can say that it is RS Watchdogb 18:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Also please take a look at Undueweight. Watchdogb 19:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
hmmm could you give some examples for kicking out their editors with evidence? --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ 20:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I can indeed. Here is a achiever of the paper released my Whitker a well known person who studied tamilnet and the murder of one of its editers. It has also information of the displeasure by LTTE towards Tamilnet because Tamilnet has put LTTE in "bad light". Watchdogb 23:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The PDF that taprobanus is showing doesn't really prove anything. What it's really showing is that TamilNet is just "notable". It doesn't prove that it is reliable or that it is neutral. And please, Praveen should stop harping that the TamilNet has been "referenced". It might have been referenced a few dozen times in the last 10 years(as the PDF says). That is hardly anything. Also, BBC is a news service and works very much differently than an encyclopedia. And yeah, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. No encyclopedia which talks about truth uses sources like these whose only purpose is to spread Tamil nationalistic ideologies. Gnanapiti 06:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Gnanapiti, I think you are confusing WP:RS with WP:NPOV, where does RS says that the source has tobe neutral ? they have to be reliable but sometimes we have to use biased sources to neutralize articles hence Tamilnet becomes very valuable in making articles neutral. Anyway, every body who is arguing here has a known position so this is not going to go anywhere unless we follow the wiki process where truely neutral people can weigh in such as through rfc, rfm and rfa. Thanks Taprobanus 12:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
(reply to Gnanapiti:) Do not create rules on-the-fly to suit your regionalistic ideas... Since when did number of times a source got referenced has to be taken into account? If that is the case, then regionalistic propaganda sources such as Kamath's pseudo-history books would have never seen the light in Misplaced Pages... BTW: Read the underlined portion in my previous reply. Praveen 13:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
(reply to Gnanapiti:) The way Watchdogb just dropped a link to a whole document is indeed not very helpful to prove his point. However, I found the following on page 27: "none of the backers and editors of Tamilnet.com are members of the LTTE, and when one became an activist for the LTTE he was asked to leave his job as a sub-editor, and did." That seems to answer Lahiru's question precisely. — Sebastian 17:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
(reply to gnanapiti:) Yes, as Sebastian has pointed out it is to give answer to Lahiru's comment Watchdogb 18:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Are we now going to synthesise sources to establish reliability? Sorry. I dont buy it. Like Gnanapiti says, the pdf doesnt establish reliability in the least. It is at best only an 'academic' study of a very popular website(and hence the study). And whether its editors are members of the LTTE and whether they fired such people or not is really besides the point. The question here is really of RS. Not that of COI on the part of tnet.
  • It is one thing for Reuters, BBC etc to use this source a couple of times a year and a totally different thing for us to use it as a source for an encyclopedia. And even Reuters doesnt use it as a routine/regular "reference"/"source". They only use it(very infrequently) to indicate what the extreme-Tamil view of the situation is. This whole specious argument that "hey.. it is good enough for BBC.. its good enough Reuters.. so it should be good enough for us" is bogus. First of all, we are not BBC. We are an encyclopedia. Second of all, "its good enough for BBC" is a lie. Sarvagnya 18:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Sarvagnya, the pdf was there for many reasons
  • First off its there to show that Tamilnet is not a Arm on LTTE and neither is it there as a propaganda for LTTE. Remember that they indeed have put LTTE in bad light. They have also been criticized by the LTTE.
  • For tamilnet to fire its editor because they became an LTTE activist shows that it does not tolerate anyone who might bring the hardcore LTTE stand to the news. If they wanted to spread propaganda then they would have kept the editor.
  • PDF shows that the because Tamilnet had "subeditors" it must then go through the editorial process as any other news sites out there. Watchdogb 18:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

(reply to sarvagnya) We are not synthesizing the source. What I have written is verbatim reproduction of independent research. Not my research. OTOH, all your points are baseless claims without any attribution. Praveen 15:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

random break - tamilnet discussion

Folks, we are getting way off topic here. The original question was: is Tamilnet a reliable source? And the answer seems to be that it is... allbeit (perhaps) a biased one. What you all seem to be arguing about now is a further question: is Tamilnet reliable for a specific statement? That is a debate that should take place on the article talk page, not here. One option to consider: change the text of the article so that it includes a text attribution, as in "According to Tamilnet...." (ie change the wording so that you are giving a statement of opinion rather than a statement of fact). In any case, I think we have reached a stage where you need to move the discussion back to the article talk page. Blueboar 15:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Great, will follow that reccomendation. Thanks Taprobanus 15:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Blueboar there is no consensus among the editors here that Tamilnet is a reliable or unbiased site. furthermore the evidence in the public domain is overwhelming that Tamilnet is unreliable , biased and is simply the official website of the LTTE.The purpose of Tamilnet is to disseminate LTTE propaganda , not news. Almost every report Tamilnet makes about major battles is later proved to be unreliable. This is the simple statement of facts which you are welcome to verify by using Google to check the bona fides of this propaganda website Dutugemunu 13:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Blueboar , maybe tamilnet is a reliable source in Wikiality. According to one of Indias largest papers The Hindu (http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20070615004904600.htm&date=fl2411/&prd=fline&)
"TamilNet (www.tamilnet.com) is the unofficial mouthpiece of the Tigers in English. It is a kind of news agency chronicling the conflict as perceived by the LTTE. The site is a `must hit' for any serious Sri Lanka watcher. A senior official in the Presidential Secretariat told Frontline, "My first port of call on the internet is TamilNet. Though it is brazenly pro-Tigers, it is a good guide to know the mind of the Tiger leadership tucked away in the safe havens of the Wanni jungles."
Tamilnet frequently reports lies propagated by the LTTE which are later disproved.It os about as reliable as any terrorsit website usually is Dutugemunu 12:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Blueboar, please see the AN/I discussion. There were a number of editors (not just one) who did not think Tamilnet was a reliable source (some neutral editors, as well, such as myself). Nishkid64 (talk) 23:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
ANI is not the place for the discussion of WP:RS, and people have been invited to bring their arguments forward here. The discussion on ANI has become very long and drifted off in personal attacks and an unrelated discussion; we can't expect everybody to read that discussion. If you see any points in that discussion that have not been mentioned here, how about listing them here? — Sebastian 01:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here are the views I posted at AN/I:
I have been a reader of Tamilnet for quite a while. I've always had an interest in the actions of Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka. Anyway, now that you know my background, I wish to give my whole take on Tamilnet being a reliable source. Personally, I don't think if neutral reputable sources such as Reuters and Associated Press label Tamilnet as "pro-LTTE", then the site should not be used as a reliable source. Given that the website itself is called Tamilnet, and only reports on news regarding Tamil people and LTTE, I think there will sometimes be a COI in the news material the website publishes (which can be seen in some of the material the news website publishes). With a COI and a reputation of being a pro-LTTE news website, I would disapprove of Tamilnet being kept as a reliable source in these articles. Neutral sources that are not biased should be best used in these type of situations. I think the fact that there has been so much discussion about this speaks for itself. Not everyone agrees that the website is a reliable source, and given its controversial nature, we should avoid using it as a source.
Then in response to being labeled as an Indian sub-contient Wikipedian who shouldn't be in the debate I am not an Indian sub-continent Wikipedian. I live in the United States. I also rarely edit India-related articles (actually, the only one I really edited was Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale). Given that I have no history of participation with Tamil-related articles or India-related articles for the most part, then I don't see why my opinion is not valued.
I was later branded as a biased editor because I am Indian, which makes absolutely no sense. In response to a question about why TamilNet fails RS, I said: At WP:RS, it says "The relevant policies on sources are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:No original research, and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point-of-view." I do not think Tamilnet provides a neutral view, which in this case, would fail RS. Also, the policy says, "their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." Nishkid64 (talk) 18:15, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Basically, the two pro-TamilNet users here have been telling Indian editors that their opinions are biased because they come from India. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and it makes them look like hypocrites. They're Tamil (I presume), and yet they are tellings Indians that they are biased. What bias do we have? We're expressing the opinions here, as are you (Lustead and Taprobanus). If you consider us biased, then you must consider yourself biased and abstain from the discussion. If you really want to hear the opinion of the community, ask neutral editors who have no affiliation to any Sri Lanka or Tamil-related articles, such as myself (like I said, I only have edited a few Indian-related articles on Misplaced Pages; most of my work is American sports and history) and other people, then that's fine. Nishkid64 (talk) 18:15, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Ah, thank you. I remember reading this, and wondering what you meant by the double negation in "I don't think if neutral reputable sources such as Reuters and Associated Press label Tamilnet as "pro-LTTE", then the site should not be used as a reliable source." I assume you mean you do think so?
Two words about COI: Unfortunately, WP:COI is one of those guidelines that are most often cited by people who either don't understand it or use it to further their own agenda, instead of Misplaced Pages's best interest. This guideline clearly only applies to Misplaced Pages editors and not to sources. Of course, for any topic, whether conflict or not, we need to use information from interested parties. The same guideline is a bit fuzzy about what kind of "contributions" it covers. The way I see it is that it only applies to edits in article spaces. I therefore think that it's wrong to cite WP:COI to exclude an editor from reasonably participating in a discussion. Please let's not expand on this here, though. I only wanted to mention it briefly. (The right place for discussing the policy is WT:COI, and for discussing if certain users abuse this policy you may want to use their talk page, or you could create a section on WT:SLR.) — Sebastian 22:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
My usage of "COI" was not about Misplaced Pages editors, but about the people who write newsstories for TamilNet. Nishkid64 (talk) 22:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
As people here suggested, we can use Tamilnet without qualifications when there are no other sources. If there is alternative view available (say from Lankanation etc), we will qualify both sources with 'pro-LTTE' and 'pro-SLGOV' respectively as per existing guidelines in Srilanka Reconciliation project. BTW: See my reply above for the claim that if certain sources covers extensively about local things, they can not be used as RS. Praveen 02:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
That would be a step backwards. For four months, we have successfully followed the recommendation of citing Tamilnet with the attribution. Plain and simple, without conditions. This has never been questioned. In the contrary, the reason why we have this discussion is because some editors questioned whether Tamilnet should be allowed at all. I understand that you're trying to turn the table on those who questioned Tamilnet, but the point here is not who can push the other side better from the table, but to stay at the table together and work out our differences. There is no reason to change a recommendation that is working well. — Sebastian 02:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand how COI applies outside of wikipedia. Clearly the COI of wikipedia is for the editors of wikipedia. It does not mention anything about RS and COI. Besides how can you say that there is COI with the writers of tamilnet? It is allready established that Tamilnet is not an arm of LTTE. No proof has been shown to say that Tamilnet is a propaganda sight either. Watchdogb 15:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Then please explain why TamilNet has been labeled as a pro-LTTE news website by many, many other neutral sources like Reuters or the Associated Press. COI is not a Misplaced Pages-only term. The term also carries meaning in the real world, and that's how I am applying it. Nishkid64 (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2007(UTC)
I agree with the statement of Blueboar – "A source can have a "brand in the fire" and still be reliable. .......... Once again, we are dealing with the difference between a source that is reliable for factual statements vs. one that is reliable for statements of opinion. Both are reliable ... but the second needs to be attributed in the text of the article".
My answer to Nishkid64 is, you yourself proclaimed – "I have been a reader of Tamilnet for quite a while. I've always had an interest in the actions of Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka. Anyway, now that you know my background..........".
The way you expressed your background only made me to say – you are biased, because you are an Indian, though you haven’t edited much the issues of India related.
You are saying Tamilnet is not providing a neutral view, then how did they manage to publish the Sri Lankan President's interview at Al Jazeera television here, where he heavily slammed LTTE.
Tamilnet, because of its name-sake and the way it is carrying the news might be biased, but that doesn't mean that that is not a reliable source. Then for the name-sake, we can assume The Hindu is anti-Muslim or anti-Christian and also we can assume The Hindustan Times is ant-Pakistan. But that is not the case there.
I like to high light some of the views from User:FayssalF , a Moroccan nationality - "I see that TamilNet respects our policy on RS. These are my reasons:
  • TamilNet has been cited and used as a reference in both notable media outlets such as BBC, CNN and news agencies such as the notable Reuters. It has also been used in academic papers and still being used in government websites such as the Canadian immigration and refugee board website. (Based on the links provided by participants above).
  • Saying a pro-X is biased and unreliable is just like saying that opponent pro-X is biased and unreliable. Defence.lk reporting on TamilNet having lied is not a totally unbiased reporting. They are both partisan websites. In our case here, we only have one partisan side having a say in wikipedia. It is against our core policy NPOV. The article should be balanced. You are talking about "state terrorism in Srilanka" but the main accuser is silenced…
.................
  • The argument that says that TamilNet lied once is just not a perfect one. In the list of journalism scandals you'd find almost every universally notable media. Who doesn't remember the Sorry, We were hoaxed story about the fake abuse photos of prisoners in Iraq? Daily Mirror is still considered notable. Newspapers and media in general sometimes lie intentionally and sometimes unintentionally. You can't be sure about that.
.................
  • NPOV = Work for balance, that is: divide space describing the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources. And, when available, give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner".
I also agree with the conclusion of Blueboar that Tamilnet seems to meet the WP:RS – "..........is Tamilnet a reliable source? And the answer seems to be that it is... allbeit (perhaps) a biased one.............".
Lustead 16:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I also like to mention here, the Reuters or the Associated Press are not the accreditation institutions for world media.Lustead 16:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The only reason why I mentioned my background is because I know you and Taprobanus would say I was biased because I am Indian. Are you biased because you support Sri Lanka? No one's ever said you were biased because of your belief, but yet I see you accuse only Indian editors of a predetermined bias. That's just absolute nonsense. Getting back to what I said earlier, I still feel TamilNet is biased. Unlike others who just targeted the bias of the website, I showed why I think it fails WP:RS. Also, you say Reuters and AP are not accredited institutions of world media. Then, tell me what media sources are? Clearly, these two are known for neutral and accurate reporting, worldwide. They are not centralized in particular regions, and they report the news, in an unbiased manner. If you really think it's an RS, then I would only accept it if you say, "According to TamilNet, ....". By doing so, you're providing a disclaimer to readers who may not be familiar with the opinion of many regarding TamilNet. Nishkid64 (talk) 16:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Again you fail to show me how COI of Tamilnet would make it not RS. Please point out to a statement in WP:RS that complies with your statement ? I agree that the NPOV news sites like Reuters say Tamilnet is "pro rebel" but thats primarily because
  • Say for instance there is a clas between LTTE and SLA. Tamilnet gets the first hand information from the LTTE as in "X amount of SLA has been killed and Y has been injured-LTTE". This does not make tamilnet Pro rebel. Tamilnet just states what the LTTE states. If you follow tamilnet as you claim to then you know that each statement from ltte is attributed TO LTTE. Tamilnet does not present what LTTE say as fact. If you read a little above you see that none of the Tamilnet editors are LTTE.... None of them are activists for LTTE (one got fired as he became an activist).... Tamilnet has put LTTE under some bad light and has
been critized by LTTE. The argument that Tamilnet covers story from "Tamil Eelam" does not make in not RS. 
  • BBC, though mostly covers the conflict neutrally, has showed some bias against the LTTE sometimes. Does that make BBC not RS ? Sure it doesn't... So just because some news seem to be bias towards one side does not make the source not RS. Watchdogb 01:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I didn't say COI of TamilNet did not make it an RS. I said earlier, "In response to a question about why TamilNet fails RS, I said: At WP:RS, it says "The relevant policies on sources are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:No original research, and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point-of-view." I do not think Tamilnet provides a neutral view, which in this case, would fail RS. Also, the policy says, "their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." Nishkid64 (talk) 01:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I kindly ask you to check WP:NPOV. And please provide revelent paragraph which would make Tamilnet fail RS. About "their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand.". Definitely the tamilnet writers ARE "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand". Also they are trustworthy... Do you have specific proof that they are not trust worthy ? On one occasion they released a "mistake" of news. However, one incident alone does not permit the source to be untrustworthy. Other RS have sometimes published "mistake" news. Watchdogb 14:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I really think this discussion needs to be moved back to the article talk page, or perhaps to WP:NPOV. It is clear to me that the consensus of non-involved editors here is that Tamilnet is indeed reliable. Yes, it may be biased towards a POV but, if nothing else, it is reliable for expressing that POV. This bias may restrict how it is used, but not if it can be used. Now, there may be other issues (such as undue weight) that come into play in a given article... but those are issues that should be discussed in other places. Here, we simply focus on general reliability, and I think we are safe in stating that the question has been answered - it is reliable. Further debate here is pointless. Blueboar 16:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. From the arguments brought forward on this page, it seems obvious to me that the people who disagreed with this did so because of a false understanding of Misplaced Pages policies, above all WP:NPOV and WP:COI, neither of which are a policy about sources. — Sebastian 20:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

(unindenting) I don't think anyone would doubt that the sources argued over above are biassed; one of the open secrets of jounralism is that all newspapers, radio, television & internet sources are biassed to some degree. The trick is whether a given source will overcome their innate bias sufficiently enough to report the truth -- even if it unfavorable to them.

The problem is that in many parts of the world, the reporting is (to put it one way) polemical: if the truth isn't good enough, the reporters are "encouraged" to improve on the truth. There aren't any reporters who could observe, report what they see, & get it splashed over the front pages of every newspaper in Europe & North America in these parts of the world. So we end up with accounts where one party claims one thing, & the opposing party claims its complete opposite: one -- or both -- of these two sources is obviously lying. This is where NPOV comes into play: we report what both parties say (on the assumption that even a blind pig finds the occasional acorn), & leave it to the reader to figure out the truth. (And if a better source comes along to present an account that more accurately rflects the truth, hopefully there will be an editor with the skill & wisdom to integrate this POV into the article.) -- llywrch 02:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly what I try to do, I know Tamilnet is a POV source but it does not violate RS principles, hence I don’t ever use it to establish a fact that without attributing it. When I use it to establish a fact, I usually use it along with other sources which pretty much tell the same but not in the same detail as Tamilnet but in general agree with Tamilnet. For example in Sarathambal article which has been reverted number of times now based on removing Tamilnet as a source. I used Tamilnet to give details about a funeral that everyone accepts happened. No one can make up the fact the funeral happened and Tamilnet helps to provide details about the number of dignitaries from all communities who attended it. It also provides details about the protest that is also corroborated by a journal research paper. All these details are mundane details that makes the article encyclopedic without making it POV as an article. I just dont understand the agenda of some editors who keep removing it only making the article violate NPOV, I just dont know. Thanks Taprobanus 15:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Take the debate elsewhere please... the consensus on this page is that Tamilnet IS essentially reliable. Whether it violates NPOV, or some other issue is to be debated in other forums. Further arguments for and against are getting tiresome and will not lead to any additional resolution. Blueboar 16:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks and sorry for pro-longing the discussion Taprobanus 19:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
No, there is consensus from here and the related ANI thread that TamilNet or TC or TNation is not RS. It's as obvious as can get, since Taprobanus said that "neutral parties" only. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I no longer care... as long as there is consensus, great... go follow it. My point was: take it elsewhere. Blueboar 19:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)Blueboar - There is no need to take it anywhere else. And blueboar, dont simply keep repeating that there is a consensus that tnet and other such sites are reliable. There is NO such consensus either here or on ANI. On the contrary, there IS a consensus that they are NOT reliable sources.

tnet is a self styled news service with no affiliations and no accountability. It is an out and out advocacy site. Its views are radically different not just from those of the SriLankan government, but also other 'definitely' RS sources like BBC. For example, neither the BBC nor the mainstream Indian media or any respectable news source uses terms like "genocide", "ethnic cleansing" etc., to describe what is happening in SriLanka. Tamilnet and its clones on the other hand use such terms 'matter of factly' all the time. And what are the credentials of those running these sites? We dont even know who the editor is. Tamilnation, for example is run by one of the terrorists' lawyers who says on his site that "he bows his head humbly to those leaders"(sic).

The question here is not of NPOV at all for us to take it to WT:NPOV. NPOV is established by using reliable sources. You dont bring NPOV to a USA vs Bin Laden article by citing some pamphlet by Taliban or some other Islamist fundamentalist group. Some people here are talking as if NPOV can be used as an alibi to circumvent RS! No. RS is non-negotiable. Whatever NPOV you want to achieve in the article will have to be sourced from RSes. And a source doesnt become RS simply because they have a slick website or a high traffic website. A non-RS is non-RS even if it got a billion hits a day.

In the case of the Sri Lankan conflict, though the Sri Lankan military cannot be taken as totally unbiased, their site is a RS(simply because they are a bonafide organisation whose owners(the SL govt.,) is accountable to fora such as the SAARC and UN). So, if editors use the SriLankan military site as a source, in the interest of NPOV, I'd expect them to a) filter the 'commentary' out b) double check what a 'neutral' source like BBC or Reuters or The Hindu or Indian Express says about the issue and factor it in while writing the article. That is the way to achieve NPOV. Not by citing propaganda pamphlets and advocacy sites and claiming that you're 'balancing' it! Sarvagnya 21:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

"You dont bring NPOV to a USA vs Bin Laden article by citing some pamphlet by Taliban or some other Islamist fundamentalist group." - actually a Taliban or some other Islamist fundamentalist group pamphlet can, in some cases, be a reliable (if limited) source... it can be used as verification for the fact that the Islamist group actually said what the article quotes it as saying. It can be used as a statement of opinion as opposed to a statement of fact. It should be attributed so readers know that it might be biased... but it can certainly be used in certain specific circumstances. I would assume the same with any POV source, including Tamilnet. But all that aside... if, as you say, there is consensus not to use tamilnet, then fine... don't use it. Harping on the topic here is simply beating a dead horse. I don't see you convincing anyone to change their opinion on the matter. Blueboar 00:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There is consensus among uninvolved neutral parties that TN is a RS albeit a biased one. The baseless claim by involved parties such as Blungyen & Sarvagnya will not change it. It is interesting to see that they never provide iota of evidence/references for any juvenile claim that they make. It is all based purely on their whims and fantasies. Give us a break, will ya? Praveen 16:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
whatever. Blueboar 17:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a consensus in the media (BBC, Hindu, AFP, Reuters) that Tamilnet reports what the LTTE wants it to report. "Therefore it cant be neutral since the LTTE is a terrorist group and websites of terrorist group are hardly known for their neutrality. Next you will be quoting Hamas, IRA , ETA and Hezbollah sites as independent news sites.
Look at this quote from a Sri Lanka analyst in the Hindu (http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20070615004904600.htm&date=fl2411/&prd=fline&) "TamilNet (www.tamilnet.com) is the unofficial mouthpiece of the Tigers in English. It is a kind of news agency chronicling the conflict as perceived by the LTTE. The site is a `must hit' for any serious Sri Lanka watcher. A senior official in the Presidential Secretariat told Frontline, "My first port of call on the internet is TamilNet. Though it is brazenly pro-Tigers, it is a good guide to know the mind of the Tiger leadership tucked away in the safe havens of the Wanni jungles."Dutugemunu 12:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I am going to try to explain this one last time... I don't contest that Tamilnet is biased, or even blaitantly partisan. But being biased or partisan does not automatically exclude a source from being considered reliable. Reliability, as used in Misplaced Pages, does not equate to "respected" or even "factual"... it is an offshoot of "verifiable". Tamilnet really falls under the heading of "questionable source"... reliable for statements of opinion but not for statements of fact. As long as you give it proper attribution (ie you say: "According to Tamilnet...") it can be considered a reliable source for quoting the statements and opinions of Tamilnet and those it represents.
Now, this does not mean that you can quote Tamilnet in just any article... there are many other policies that affect whether you can include a statement by Tamilnet (WP:NPOV#Undue weight for example). These are issues that are better discussed in other forums (such as the NPOV talk page). My point is that, if you do quote what Tamilnet says, you most certainly can consider it to be a reliable source for that quote. An analogy would be citing a Pro-Islamist website to back a statement of the opinion of Islalmists. There is a serious question as to when it is appropriate (or even allowable) to include such a statement in an article, but... once you do, the source where the statement is found becomes reliable.
I doubt anything I have said will change anyone's opinion (this seems to be too political an issue for people to view with dispassion)... but as a neutral third party, I felt it nescessary to express my opinion on the matter. 'nuff said. Blueboar 15:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I actually saw this comment just now. I guess what wasnt clear was your definition of Tamilnet as reliable source. Most people here thought when you said Tamilnet is a reliable source, that you meant it provides accurate news about events in Sri Lanka.However your above comment does clarify what you meant . Thanks for that.I agree that Tamilnet is reliable for statements of opinion by the LTTE but not for statements of fact. Dutugemunu 09:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Need for reliable sources\

I'm pretty sure that reliable, published sources are necessitated for compliance with WP:V ("Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources.") and WP:NOR ("Articles should only contain verifiable content from reliable sources without further analysis."), but the question of what constitutes a reliable source is left up to guidelines to decide. I think the lede of this piece should be changed to point out that reliable sources are mandatory, though this is only a guideline on what constitutes one. Am I missing something? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 15:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The long-term resolution of this issue is presently under discussion. — Sebastian 06:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

A list of unreliable sites?

Is there any possibilty of there being made a list of sites that are "unreliable", thus making it a rule not to use them? What I'm aiming at is that many history-related articles are propaganda-infested by sites with a clear inclination towards Historical revisionism, far right attitutes and so on. As it stands, anyone can simply write some massacre didn't happen and then link to a far right source that confirms that claim. Shouldn't there be a mechanism to prevent this? -The Spanish Inquisitor 09:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

No... because the same site might be perfectly valid in the context of some other article we can not make a list of "unreliable sites" based on their content. Unfortunately, you need to battle these citations out article by article. The first thing I would suggest is that you insist on text attribution... ie that the article states something along the lines of "According to the revisionist history site www.pseudohistorynutjobs.com the massare did not happen". This at least lets the reader know who is making the claim. Beyond that, there are several other guidelines and policy statements that can be used to cut the really fringe stuff ... If you have not already done so, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with WP:V, WP:NPOV (especially the section on Undue Weight), WP:FRINGE and WP:NOR. Blueboar 19:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Government databases as reliable sources

I had occasion to cite a public records database of Los Angeles County as a source. Another editor reverted this with the comment "Database searches are not reliable sources; as I said, we need something that is not ephemeral." The database is an official public record; that's how the county publishes business license information. Are public records databases reliable sources? --John Nagle 18:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It is far, far better to use reliable secondary sources. We want to avoid articles that are based entirely on database sources like the one you describe, because the article would then fail to demonstrate that its subject is notable enough to warrant a WP article. And even assuming the article cites secondary sources, are you really also citing the type of facts that are found in a database (like co. owners, founding date, address, etc.?) This information is not typically cited, in my experience. UnitedStatesian 19:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
It's one of those things that resulted when another editor added {{fact}} tags which had to be answered. Notability wasn't the issue; there were other sources for that. It was the relationship between related organizations which was controversial. This sort of thing tends to come up with lobbying organizations, where the organization would prefer not to have too much information disseminated about who's behind them. --John Nagle 20:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, public records are reliable sources. SchmuckyTheCat
Agreed. Some editors seem to confuse "reliable source" with other factors. Not every source must "indicate notability"; even self-published sources don't have to say why the fact is notable, they just are not to be used to include non-notable information (e.g. the SPS for "Bob likes cats" doesn't have to say why Bob's preference for felines is notable, but if that preference is not notable for Bob's article then the whole statement should be removed from the article no matter that we have a source). Not every source must be permanently online, although WebCite can be used to preserve "ephemeral" sources. And while secondary sources are required for critical commentary and proof of notability, primary sources are ideal for establishing simple facts and should be used without hesitation for that purpose. Anomie 20:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Database searches are not verifiable, as the contents of databases are ephemeral. Jayjg 23:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not the database itself is ephemeral (which isn't always true; for instance, http://www.nationalbridges.com/ is just a front-end to a database published once a year by the Federal Highway Administration), the actual records can be checked by anyone going to the county offices. --NE2 00:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Please quote the part of WP:V that supports your statement. Thanks. Anomie 01:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Government databases, like any database, sometimes record things transiently and sometimes archivally. The individual nature of the source must be considered. We continually use directory type databases that record things as of a certain date, and our edits reflect it. that's the very purpose of giving the date when it was accessed. The same is true of essentially everything we use. If WP was intended for the scholarly preservation of information, we would record and freeze he state of every source we use--but we '- this is a level of certainty and proof that is not the function of a general encyclopedia. We are a merely a convenient tertiary source, of no greater reliability than our sources and how we use them. DGG 07:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The database he is talking about is archival. It brings up text versions of business records, I prefer the one from Florida, which gives you direct document images . SchmuckyTheCat
For that matter, WebCite can be used to preserve links that may "go dead". Anomie 12:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

John Nagle has misstated the issue; the issue was original research, as was plainly stated many times - the edits summaries were consistently "remove original research", e.g. , and I said the same in the Talk: page comments: True, in my final comment I accidentally used the phrase "reliable source" rather than "original research", but the issue has been clear from the start. It's baffling why John would try to present the issue this way now. Jayjg 23:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

nycsubway.org

The relevant discussion is at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation#Fact Checking on Station Opening Dates. http://nycsubway.org/ has opening dates for all stations, but many of them are incorrect. Can it be cited for other stations where we don't have another source? --NE2 22:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Would you have numbers? How many out of how many checked dates were incorrect, and how far off were they? — Sebastian 23:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd guess about 1/2 to 2/3 of the dates before about 1915 are off; it's a lot more accurate after that. --NE2 00:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to ask the website owners which sources were used to cite the dates? Tinlinkin 03:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I would say that the site can be used for those situations where no other sources for a station opening date are available ... however you might consider adding a text foot note to the reference citation, cautioning the reader that the source is known to contain occasional errors. Obviously, if a more reliable source is eventually located you should then replace it. Blueboar 13:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Best sources, not just Reliable sources

I recently tried to trace down the sources of some dubious statements in an area that I know something about -- the history of medieval astronomy. After spending some time on line, searching the bibliographies, and getting books at the library, I identified what seems to be a common factor underlying such dubious claims.

These dubious claims tend to cite tertiary sources written by people with little historical expertise -- sometimes web-based articles, sometimes popular printed books, sometimes books and articles published by little known publishing houses and journals. The replies to the claims tend to be by qualified historians and usually appear in well respected, extensively documented books and articles published by well known publishing houses and scholarly journals with well-established reputations.

The key here is that we can find an indicator of the dominant scholarly opinion by comparing the quality of the rival sources. What I'm getting at is that when there's nothing better, we have to rely on whatever sources are available. However, when there is disagreement among the sources, the "best sources" carry more weight. At some times we can even use the "best sources" to justify dismissing the fringe point of view presented in sources of lesser quality that might formally qualify as "reliable sources".

Shouldn't this article -- or a related one -- address the concept that meeting some technical standard of reliability isn't always an adequate criterion for inclusion? There are a lot of sources out there; we're writing an encyclopedia; so we should use the best available sources. --SteveMcCluskey 01:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You may want to read the Undue Weight section of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view as well as WP:FRINGE - both make a stab at dealing with this issue. Blueboar 16:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I find the same as SteveMcCluskey; but I am not sure how the guideline can cover that. The Verifiability page says that verifiability is the threshold, and I take that to mean that verifiability is just the start and that verifiable information can be superseded by superior information from superior sources. Good editors will use the best sources and avoid the worst; but the difficulty is that for popular subjects—say, the history of the Holy Grail legend—the bad sources can outnumber the good ones and put high-quality editing at a premium. I fear that we don't have enough academically trained editors to make sure that any more than a minority of articles are comprehensively discerning about sources. At the moment there is much scope for people, in the best of faith, to add information and say, "Look, it's sourced; job done". qp10qp 15:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I have seen a similar problem as to what Steve describes in articles on the Greco-Roman world, which I have a bit of background in. There used to be quite good descriptions of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources here in WP:RS that have been moved to WP:NOR. It strikes me, however, that WP:NOR aims at quite a different thing: excluding the loopy, weird, and/or novel. But the emphasis here should be on having a resource that helps us educate editors about how to make articles better. semper fictilis 13:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

MySpace

Misplaced Pages:Don't use MySpace as a source redirects here, but there's nothing in the guideline that says so directly. Could this be changed? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

My first thought was that the implications should be obvious. On reflection, if someone is foolish enough to even consider using MySpace as a source they probably need it to be spelled out. Will try to think of something. Raymond Arritt 04:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
No, what SatyrTN is pointing out is a growing problem: increasing numbers of celebrities & other people are preferring to open a MySpace account & maintain a presence there over creating their own website. Grrr -- why can't these people recognize that MySpace is a cesspit & stay away from it? That would make our article-writing much simpler. -- llywrch 19:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there any way to verify that the person on MySpace actually is who they claim to be? Someone claiming to be e.g., George Bush or Angelina Jolie couldn't get away with the ruse for long. On the other hand, might it be possible for someone to fake the identity of a minor celebrity? Raymond Arritt 02:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I would assume that the person in question told the public (in a manner that was hopefully verifiable) that the MySpace page was their home page. For example, a band who otherwise qualified under notability, & the back of their album states that their web presence is a page on MySpace. (Not where I would have my web page, but then I'm not a 20-something performer.) The problem comes when the only proof that could be offered is that numerous people heard the subject state in an ephemeral form (e.g., heard on the radio) that the celebrity created the MySpace account. -- llywrch 21:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This would be covered by WP:V#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves, the last of the criteria listed being the kicker in this case. - Crockspot 03:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

That policy was created to combat the claim that a person can claim notability by having a MySpace account -- which is not what I am saying. What I'm saying is that there is a problem when the most reliable source for a person who is otherwise notable is their MySpace account, & that this problem will be growing in the near future. (Or do think that any given person is entirely unreliable about all details concerning him/herself, including date & place of birth, education, & marital status?) My comment about MySpace is based on my (admittedly subjective) impression of a series of radio interviews I've heard over the last few weeks: people who want a web presence are turning to MySpace in increasing numbers. I find this development disturbing, because I'd prefer that we maintain the status quo & not link to MySpace at all; however, denial is not a permanent solution for this problem. -- llywrch 21:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I really don't like this. But, if we do start chipping away at the "No MySpace" rule... I would suggest being very strict and demand a double citation... first a citation to a reliable source that establishes that the subject of the article indeed created the MySpace page, and then a citation to the MySpace page itself. Also such citations should definitely be restricted to "articles about themselves" situations. On the other hand... there is the argument that anything notable about someone will have been reported by a reliable third party source, and so there is no need to cite to the MySpace page. Blueboar 12:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
That sounds really dumb. If there is a problem with a bogus myspace account, remove anything cited by it. Don't make people jump through procedural hoops because some bad sources exist, just remove the bad sources. SchmuckyTheCat 22:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we're going to need to develop some specific policy on this, per llywrch. MySpace has a mechanism to allow celebrities to thwart impersonators, but I haven't noticed any system by which outsiders can confirm the supposed celebrity is who they say they are. That's only half of a proper editorial overview, one that allows insiders to know about themselves, but preventing outsiders from being able to rely on claims. Could we, as an 800-lb (400-kg) Internet gorilla, ask MySpace to provide a confirmation mechanism, like an on-page seal that they (not the user) control, or a central list of identity-confirmed users, that outsiders can use? This would be a win-win-win, since it would increase the confidence outside sources have in (some parts of) MySpace, protect the celebrities, and probably be highly desired by the MySpace community. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

On this topic, we've run into a dispute on the Talk:Cloverfield page. Cloverfield is a film in production that is using a viral marketing campaign. Several of the character's names have been revealed on the official website. The characters can be found on myspace; their pages were created and updated before the names were released, making it reasonable to assume that the pages were created by official sources. Furthermore, there are numerous pictures (not seen anywhere else) that undeniably identify them (same people seen in the trailer). Because of the secrecy of the whole marketing campaign, it makes it impossible to ensure that information is 100% "official," and causing verifiability disputes. --ElectricZookeeper 14:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Newsmax

Is Newsmax considered a reliable source? I'm not familiar with them. They've been used in some articles, and whenever I've followed up the references their coverage often is strongly slanted. Raymond Arritt 02:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

  • There are a number of "slanted" news sources that are used quite a bit on wikipedia, NewMax, WorldNetDaily slanted right, MediaMatters, and Raw Story slanted left, to name just a few. I've tried to get consistent treatment of these sources, to no avail. It basically comes down to the editor's own biases. If an editor leans left, then he probably thinks that NewsMax and WND (and maybe even Fox News) are unreliable sources, and MediaMatters and Raw Story are worthy of Pullitzers. Flip that if the editor leans right. You have to work it out in the trenches of the individual articles. And don't be shocked if you see an editor arguing one way in one article, and another way in a different article. Good luck. It's a shame that it has to work this way. It would be nice if we had a magic list, but then there would be a battle over the contents of the list. - Crockspot 03:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, maybe we need to insist that for each cite from Newsmax there has to be one from Mother Jones, and vice versa... only half-joking here. It would indeed be nice to segregate common sources into reliable, reliable but partisan, etc. with caveats for each category, but as you say there would be lots of contention over which source belonged where. Thanks for your response. Raymond Arritt 03:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

point for discussion

Are BBC, CNN, New York Times etc. 'reliable sources'? Because the evidence shows them to be unvarnished liars when the Establishment demands it (the killer point being that they contradict *their own reports* when this becomes politically necessary)

One glaring example: http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/milospeech.htm

PS, I'm being slightly facetious in my question -- I know full well what the conventional answer is, but I think it sucks (and is inaccurate) that Misplaced Pages gives Establishment media a 'carte blanche' for accuracy.

Mind you, I can probably predict a response that *not* to do so would open a 'can of worms' -- there probably is something to this, but I think it ought to be brought to people's attention that, as is shown by the above article, Establishment sources are not always reliable sources.

Cheers everyone -- feel free to discuss this issue on my talk page if this isn't an appropriate forum. Jonathanmills 14:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

As you guessed, the answer is that they are reliable. However, that does not mean that they are always accurate. There is a subtle difference. Any reliable source can get their facts wrong on occasion. Good article writing and sourcing means that you don't take anything for granted... you check your sources to make sure that THEY got it right. It may well be that for a given statement, in a given article, a specific citation to the NYT or BBC might be inaccurate. In which case, you can argue on the talk page that the specific citation is unreliable for the given statement (be sure you have at least one better and more accurate source to back up your argument or it will look like you are just trying to POV push). This guideline deals with generalities and not specifics. In general, mainstream media outlets are considered reliable. Much of the time they are accurate as well. Blueboar 14:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi there, thanks for your response. I'm wondering if you read the article I linked to, or just dismissed it out of hand? (You seem to suggest it comes from a poor and inaccurate source). I'm honestly not trying to sound smarmy or be argumentative here, just asking a question -- if you have criticisms to make of the article, I'd be interested to hear them -- because it seems to me the article (backed by evidence) proves a much stronger case than what you appear to be suggesting (ie, that mainstream/Establishment sources 'get their facts wrong on occasion'.) It appears to me the article proves that such sources will *consistently (and deliberately) fabricate* things where and when it is deemed politically necessary (for the purposes of war propaganda, for example, as in this case). Given that, I think deeming them inherently reliable (excepting occasional minor errors) is inaccurate.
I know this is a big issue, and again, I don't mean to get into any sort of ill-tempered argument, but this is probably the one thing that concerns me most about Misplaced Pages policy, so I thought I'd tackle it head-on. Cheers Jonathanmills 16:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I looked at it... and Francisco Gil-White is entitled to his opinion (it is obvious that he has an agenda... which is not bad in itself, but the agenda should be recognized). It is borderline Fringe... I would certainly not base a condemnation of all mainstreme media on his research. Again, it might play into a discussion about a specific citation in a specific article, but not for a general statement on the overall reliability of mainstreme media. Blueboar 12:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Well Jonathan, there is much truth in the old saying "History is written by the victor." The challenge is to overcome that hurdle & to present a fair account. If you can do that in a Misplaced Pages article, & not violate WP:NPOV or WP:NOR, then you've done a great job. Otherwise, we try to give each party the hearing they deserve & leave it to the reader to sort it out. -- llywrch 21:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys, thanks for your responses.
I agree that one article would be a very tenuous basis with which to discredit the entire mainstream media. The thing is, it is just one example -- a powerful and compelling one, in my opinion, but certainly not the only one. A few others I can pull off the top of my head:
  • The democratic nature of the Sandinista government in Nicaragua (1979-1990). Whether or not one sympathises with their politics, the mainstream media -- particularly in the US -- systematically distorted the fact that the Sandinistas were holding democratic elections (one in 1984, which they won, and then another in 1990, which was long-scheduled, but portrayed as a concession by the Sandinistas!)
  • The 1976 Arab (including PLO) offer to Israel for a 'two-state solution' to the Middle East problem -- ie, a 'Palestinian state' in the post-1967 Occupied Territories. (I might note here that I am not particularly a partisan of the Arab/Palestinian cause -- simply that in the overwhelming majority of mainstream media accounts, this important event never occurred).
  • Routinely referring to Slobodan Milosevic as a 'dictator' -- again, one need not be a fan of Milosevic to accept the fact that he was in fact repeatedly elected. (Ironically, this fact was brought up by NATO when necessary -- 'the Serbs voted for him, so they should pay')
  • Claiming that Saddam Hussein 'kicked out' UN weapons inspectors in 1998 (in fact, they were withdrawn after the US made it clear they were about to begin bombing Iraq (see http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1750 for a brief rundown on this). This is in addition to incredibly misleading coverage of Iraqi cooperation (portrayed as intransigience) with UN inspections (see http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1025).
I could honestly go on. This is not even going into the somewhat different level of bias which sees Establishment claims routinely treated as fact, rather than the claims of the Establishment -- eg, taking at face value US military claims who is behind the death squads in Iraq (see http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=1230 for a different, and in my view far more compelling, view -- also http://www.cryingwolf.deconstructingiraq.org.uk/sceneselection.html (this is an annotated version of a film viewable by clicking the link in the top left corner)
I'll stop giving examples now, anyway! Just wanted to show a bit more evidence than one article. (I might add also that I bear no particular anti-US animus -- just that American media, like everything else, dominate Western discourse (and are held to be 'reliable sources')
The basic point is, as Llywrch points out, 'history is written by the victors'. Moreover, one would expect (or I would, anyway :-) that information will reflect the national bias of its outlet -- in the same way that one would probably be sceptical of Establishment Russian or Chinese reporting of topics sensitive to them, one should (I submit) be similarly sceptical of Western media on topics sensitive to them. (This can be as simple as unconscious patriotic bias). I know that it is said that we have a 'free' media and thus are immune from this dynamic, but I believe the evidence contradicts this.
Thus I can't agree with the idea that a source should be discredited merely because it shows 'an agenda' -- *everyone* has an agenda, conscious or unconscious. (I know this wasn't exactly what was said in the comment above Llywrch's (Blueboar?), but it appears to be the underlying idea). It is clear from the evidence (well, it is to me anyway :-) that mainstream Western media systematically distort information in order to conform with the needs of Western power, thus they have an agenda. In addition, if one's 'agenda' is to expose lies and uncover the truth (whether or not this applies specifically to Gil-White), I can't see a problem with that.
That said, (almost finished now!) the irony is that most of my examples of media distortion themselves rely on the accuracy of the mainstream media, in that they compare claims to previous and/or downplayed information from the same sources. So I'm not suggesting for a moment that the mainstream media simply make stuff up routinely (Jayson Blair aside :-) -- rather, they distort (and, yes, even fabricate) facts when the agenda of power dictates (I know it sounds like crude 'conspiracy theory', but I don't know how else to describe it)
In conclusion, I agree with Llywrch about presenting both sides -- it's the only workable option (having been on some controversial-issue discussion boards, things would probably be even more unworkable than they already are if no sources were taken at face value -- that's the 'can of worms' I referred to in my original post). So I guess my main suggestion -- and I know this is huge, and very unlikely to be implemented :-) would be to make some sort of mention of the potential inaccuracy of *all* sources, based on the fundamental principles already discussed.
Well, that's it! Sincere apologies for the length of the post -- I know it is against Misplaced Pages style, but I wanted to make my position clear (and as compelling as possible). Thanks again, guys, for your responses. Incidentally, Blueboar, if you are still following this, it appears we have something in common -- a love for English pubs! I've just moved to London actually, so if you're ever in town, maybe we should meet up at one and hash things out over a pint :-)
Cheers everyone Jonathanmills 10:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately that would be a bit difficult... I live in New York (not a decent pint to be found!). But thanks for the invite. Good luck with your editing. Blueboar 12:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh, you poor b*stard! I always remember the Monty Python joke about American beer being like making love in a canoe boat -- it's f*cking close to water! :-) Jonathanmills 12:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Nah... its worse. More like making love in a stable... close to horse piss. Cheers. Blueboar 13:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
First, while Jonathan understands me correctly about presenting both sides to an issue -- the official story & what appears to be the actual truth. However, there is a caveat here, which has slipped into policy for understandable reasons: all too often someone who claims that she/he is only "presenting the truth" is in fact either presenting original research ("I have incontrovertable proof that George Washington was a woman, but mainstream historians have suppressed this information") or attempting to get visibility for crank or lunatic fringe theories that don't deserve space on Misplaced Pages (the LaRouchies being the first group to attempt this on a significant scale). To anyone who finds that she/he must surmount this barrier, I'd suggest (1) make sure all of the facts & conclusions are adequately cited, & (2) be sure to have at hand a persuasive argument that the side you are reporting is a notable one. I figure that one could get the most obnoxious & lunatic-fringe POVs represented in a Misplaced Pages article if they were presented in a satisfactorily entertaining manner (e.g., some famous person actually believed that George Washington was a woman, & include that person's reasons why they believed that silly idea.)
About beer: both of you need to visit the Pacific Northwest. Speaking as someone who has sampled the beers in Germany & Britain as well as my native Oregon, the local brews here are comparible to almost anything brewed in those countries. Sadly, I find I'm always in a struggle with the local waitstaff to tell me the offerings from that part of the list & omit the American commercial stuff (e.g., Budweiser, Miller, Coors, etc.) -- llywrch 19:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, Llywrch (on both topics). Actually I have a friend living in Seattle at the moment, so if I go for a visit I'll check out those local brews :-) Jonathanmills 16:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Imageshack images as sources

At La Toya Jackson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Rhythmnation2004 (talk · contribs) added a bunch of awards and accomplishments for La Toya Jackson (see this edit) with the sources being a bunch of scans and photos to Imageshack. How does this stand in terms of reliable sources? I removed them because I don't feel that they are too reliable, especially since you can barely read some of the awards in the photos. In my opinion, these are not reliable sources and that these statements should be sourced with some sort of news coverage or press release of the organization giving the award that states she received it. Thoughts? Metros 13:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Use of Google as a RS???

If you want to have some fun cleaning up an article, take a look at the "references" at the Royal Rife article! -- Fyslee/talk 12:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

It's clearly full of Google refs, which presumably you know is not allowed. So, why haven't you removed them? Lsi john 12:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I did it for him. Blueboar 16:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Sentence removal

I just removed the following sentence "When sourcing, be careful not to attribute a statement to a source that may have itself originally taken the same information from Misplaced Pages (either with or without acknowledgement). This applies especially to self-authored third-party websites;" the sentence was recently added by anon IP 86.136.194.161 without any discussion on this page. While I agree with the sentiment, I have no idea how an editor is supposed to avoid this "circular sourcing," so I think the sentence obfusctates more than it clarifies. Any efforts at a clearer guideline are welcome. UnitedStatesian 13:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

What if we expand it a bit... something like: "When sourcing, be careful not to attribute a statement to a source that may have itself originally taken the same information from Misplaced Pages. A source that credits Misplaced Pages among its sources for the information in question should never be used. If no credit is given, such "circular referencing" may be more difficult to determine. One good indication would be if the language used in the source is substantially similar to what appears in Misplaced Pages articles related to the topic. If you suspect that a sourced statement contains a circular reference to a Misplaced Pages article, you should raise the issue on the article talk page." Blueboar 14:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I originally added this. As Misplaced Pages itself becomes used more and more as a source this is a potential danger. Many articles were originally written with no references or inadequate references. There now seems to be a drive to tighten this with many "citation needed" tags appearing. The temptation is to look for web references via Google as they're easiest to find, but there is a danger that the information on the web page that you find was itself taken from Misplaced Pages. I fear a kind of circle of bogus validation. I think it's worth alerting people to this problem, just so it's in the back of their minds, even if we can't give a foolproof way to tell. Matt 01:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC).

One Question Was the articles of the columinst from a news sources reliable or not?

--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 05:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I assume you are asking if an op-ed collumn is reliable. It is reliable - with the following caution: an op-ed collumnist is writing his or her opinion on matters, and not necessarily a factual article. So, any citation to such a collumn should be expressed as the author's opinion and not as pure fact. It is best to attribute statements the collumnist makes... example: "According to New York Times collumnist Thomas Freedman..." Blueboar 18:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks,and another question,why we must or not cite one commentary,if the commentary only represent his or her own view,as you know,there are millions in the world daily publish countless views,so if we had cited one commentary,why not cite them all?--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 18:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, one collumnist may be considered an expert on the topic, while another may not be... so the opinion of the first is more notable. Also, a third collumnist may represent a fringe view that is not worth mentioning in the article.
Deciding which views to include in an article is up to the authors working on any given article. Ideally we should include all significant views on any given topic (See the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view policy), understanding that we should not give "undue weight" to any one view. But that is really not a discussion for this page. All we can say here is: Op-Ed articles (at least those appearing in major newspapers and the like) are reliable sources - but, being opinion, it is best to attribute the author in text as well as cite them. Hope this helps. Blueboar 19:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thanks a lot,your answer is very helpful.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 19:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Modern flags of early medieval countries

Lots of fancy flags have already been deleted, but the problem has surfaced again. Image:GokturkFlag.png is taken from an unreferenced Flags of the World page purporting to depict flags of the "Sixteen Great Turkish Empires", the vast majority of which are fanciful and uncited. No scholarly reference is given for this flag. I have a hefty monograph on the Gokturks which mentions in passim that the war standard of the Gokturks contained the image of the golden she-wolf, but this data is not referenced as well. Briangotts nominated the image for deletion on Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion/2007 June 11. The discussion has been inconclusive so far, but User:Quadell suddenly removed the ifd tag from the image with the edit summary "not deleted", claiming on his talk page that the picture is "sourced". I would welcome input from those people who understand our RS policy better than I do. --Ghirla 14:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Government documents via second-hand sources

Government documents (e.g., court filings) often are not easily accessible from their official sources, but may be available second-hand from web pages that discuss related topics. What's the view on convenience links to such sites? And what if the web site has a point of view on the matter? Even in the latter case, I'd think it would be unlikely that anyone sane would forge legal documents given the legal liabilities of doing so. In case anyone is wondering the specific matter I'm interested in is here. Raymond Arritt 20:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Given that the hosted documents are PDF files of the official court records (complete with the court's stamp recording its filing) I would say that the documents are definitely reliable (They would be admissable in most courts if you printed them from the website). The host site, on the other hand, is a blog ... which would not be reliable for anything it says on the matter.
Thus, I would take care to only talk about what is stated in the documents themselves and not discuss any commentary from the blog site. Your citation should run something like: <ref>Ball v. The Calgary Herold et al., Statement of Claim - filed in the Court of Queen's Bench of Alberta, Judicial District of Calgary, 1 Sept., 2006 - courtesy copy hosted on website.</ref> Blueboar 20:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I plan simply to link the documents as such and not to include what Desmogblog says about the case nor to make any comment myself on what they contain (to do so would be WP:OR, in my view). An interesting twist on this case is that Desmogblog says the lawsuit has been dropped, but I haven't been able to confirm that with other sources. Raymond Arritt 20:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

AlterNet

Some Roman Catholics say AlterNet is not a reliable source and keep reverting edits. What do you think? --BMF81

Like other sources, it depends on what they are used for. They are a politically oriented news source, and they admit it, and you can therefore figure out what to accept. I'd be reluctant to accept their word as definitive about any controversial situation, but I wouldn't be at all reluctant to cite them for their opinion. That's about what I feel about most other sources too. This can be discussed more usefully with the actual questioned material.DGG 03:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Opinion sources vs. Fact sources

We continue to have a lot of questions of the "is X a reliable source?" variety... and in the vast majority of cases these have been answered with ... "it is reliable for a citation to back a statement of opinion, but not a statement of fact" Often advising the editor to include a text attribution as in "According to noted person Y: 'quote of Y's opinion'<citation to where Y says it>". It would be very helpful to have a section in the guideline that discusses this "grey zone" of reliability (with an example or two) that we could point to in answering such questions. Thoughts? Blueboar 12:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Since I've commented on this, I'll give it a try. (I think there's some material on this in WP already, though I'll have to look for it.)
But, let me ask: I'm accustomed to a practice where the preferred way of giving someone's opinion is always a quotation from the source, normally in italics. It has the advantage of accuracy, though of course one can still manipulate it to be unrepresentative. This doesn't seem to be done around here much, with the exception of displayed quotes, using the blockquote or cquote templates. I doubt it's concern over copyvio, because for an inline italicized quotation only a sentence at most is ordinarily used, while some of the displayed quotes use whole paragraphs or multiple paragraphs. Can anyone enlighten me here? DGG 03:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree: For a short (one or two sentence) quotation, it is best to use an inline attribution and quote (ie using quotation marks and a footnoted "<ref>citation</ref>") is ideal... and for a longer (several sentence or paragraph length) quotation, editors should use block quotes (followed by a footnoted citation). But that is an issue for a style guideline.
The issue I am raising is more fundamental than that... a lot of editors don't seem to understand when to state something as an oppinion vs. stating it as a fact. I would even go so far as to say that may don't seem to understand the difference between a statement of opinion and a statement of fact... both need to be referenced, but the reference involes a different aspect of reliability. We get a lot of questions on this, and it is becoming more obvious to me that we need to address this issue in the quideline. Blueboar 13:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

A bit that I find questionable.

A sentence used to say:

Misplaced Pages relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable. However, they may be outdated by more recent research, or controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly explanations. Misplaced Pages articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic.

After this edit by SlimVirgin, with the edit summary "tidied writing, removed bits that made little sense or stated the obvious", the meaning is very different:

Misplaced Pages relies in part on material written by scientists, scholars, and researchers around the world. These may be outdated by more recent research, or may controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly and non-scholarly treatments. Misplaced Pages articles should therefore ideally rely on all majority and significant-minority treatments of a topic, scholarly and non-scholarly, so long as the sources are reliable.

Do we really need the "non-scholarly" part? I think scholarly treatments should always outweigh non-scholarly ones. A "significant minority" (who decides how significant it needs to be?), or even a majority could say anything, and be opposed to anything that modern science has established. Dinosaurs did not evolve, they were created on the sixth day; blacks are born criminals; Sumerian evolved from Ukrainian; Hitler was really a nice man; alligators dwell in New York City's sewers. The "so long as the sources are reliable" bit doesn't help that much, because the current definition of "reliable" only requires that the author should be "generally regarded as trustworthy" or "authoritative" (if "generally regarded" means "regarded by everybody", the criterion is unsatisfiable, if it means "regarded by most", it is unfalsifiable). The "peer-reviewed" criterion was a lot easier to apply. --Anonymous44 14:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

SV's edit simply is a reflection of reality, i.e., Wikpedia's growing hostility toward expertise and competence. The acknowledged logical fallacy of appeal to authority has somehow careened off into the idea that experts are inherently untrustworthy, and that the ravings of the village idiot deserve the same careful consideration (if not more) as peer-reviewed publications by someone who has devoted their life to a topic. That's regrettable, but that's the way it is, so the edit should stay. Raymond Arritt 15:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I think you are over reacting a bit, Raymond... I support SV's edit because we were having situations where knowledgable and highly reliable sources were being dismissed simply because they were not "scholars" - ie accademics. The change allows for the knowledgable (expert or near expert) amature to be cited. Obviously, accademics are reliable... and in some topics they will be the best, most reliable, sources of information... but they are not the only reliable sources. Blueboar 18:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
The proposed wording puts peer-reviewed journal articles on an equal footing with op-ed columns by people with an axe to grind, conspiracy theorists, interviews with cranks on sensationalized TV "documentaries", and well-connected lunatics -- as long as they can get their way into a non-self-published venue. While that's certainly common enough in practice, institutionalizing it will be one more blow to the increasingly shaky credibility of Misplaced Pages. I doubt that's your intent, but experience has taught me never, ever to assume that people will make the reasonable and logical interpretation when an otherwise-preferred interpretation is remotely plausible (ref wikilawyering).
An example from my own experience is the repeated attempt to use material by Christopher Monckton in articles about global warming. Monckton is an amateur with no disciplinary training, and much of what he has written has been shown elswehere to be wrong. But because he's a former government official and his "scientific" analysis of the global warming problem was published in a major British newspaper, people are arguing that it's a WP:RS just as good as journal articles or reports by major scientific bodies. The wording proposed here says "yes, it is." If that's what we want, go for it. Raymond Arritt 18:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Alas, 'tis not a "proposed wording"... It's been here since April, though it obviously passed with practically no discussion.--Anonymous44 21:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Blueboar, could you give me an example of these "knowledgable and highly reliable sources" who were not academics? Anyway, I can see how mainstream media, investigative journalists etc. are or may be reliable sources, but I think this should be restricted. The current wording explicitly endorses non-scholarly views when they contradict the scholarly ones. It's on the verge of saying: "You and your group may not like the mainstream scholarly treatment/view about something. Feel free to add an alternative non-scholarly treatment/view that suits you better, provided that you find its author trustworthy." My impression is that "alternative non-scholarly treatments/views", aka cranks, are among the greatest dangers for Misplaced Pages's reliability. --Anonymous44 21:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree strongly with this rewrite and am disturbed that it occurred with no discussion and such a misleading edit summary. I propose the more accurate version:

Where available, articles written by scientists, scholars, and researchers are the preferred source material in Misplaced Pages. Articles should use such sources to summarise all majority and significant-minority treatments of a topic, while following the appropriate policies on a WP:Undue weight.

Does this sound reasonable? TimVickers 02:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It's better, but I'd rather make it clear that we give primacy to peer-reviewed literature. One problem that we're seeing is use of popular-press commentary, especially by people with marginal scientific qualifications. Partisan editors are fond of things like stating "Professor X said in the New York Times..." Prof. X as an "expert" because he wrote a single paper on a vaguely related topic in 1983, and of course the New York Times is a reliable source, so his offhand comments to the Times reporter ought to be just as valid as a National Academy of Sciences review. Or so the argument goes. Raymond Arritt 02:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Changed it to Undue Weight, which deals with that problem. TimVickers 02:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to get much involved in this discussion, but it seems to me that this page has two signficant problems. First, it should somewhere acknowledged that articles can always be improved with regard to their sourcing. Second (and more importantly), it probably aims at something that is not realistic: a single guideline about sourcing for all subjects. It seems to me obvious that the rules about what sources are best for an article about the Peloponnesian War will be completely different from those on abortion or pokemon or Hillary Clinton. Now, I think scholarly-vs.-none-scholarly is not a helpful division when in comes to Hillary--sourcing will be main-stream-media and opinions are those of notable commentators. But for the Peloponnesian War, we should be able to aim for peer-reviewed history articles and books in university presses, a standard that would be completely unrealistic for pokemon articles. I have no concrete plan of action, but I wonder whether WP:RS shouldn't be blown into a dozen different guidelines: one for ancient history, another for popular culture, another for contemporary politics, etc., etc. semper fictilis 04:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with peer-review as a standard is that not all peer review is created equal. For instance, the Journal of Scientific Exploration and the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (JPandS) are "peer-reviewed", technically, but they promote fringe ideas nonetheless. I share Raymond's concern; I edit primarily medical articles, and I can tell you that there is a huge problem with quality of sources. It's not like we have so many good sources that some are being unfairly excluded by WP:RS - quite the opposite. There are already far too many questionable sources forming the basis of articles here. If you got your health information from Misplaced Pages (which people do, despite the disclaimer), you could be forgiven for believing that vaccines are deadly, that their link to autism is scientifically proven, that statins are poison, that HIV doesn't exist (nor does AIDS), or that most human ailments can be prevented or cured with megadose vitamins or the right proprietary brand of supplements. This is fundamentally inconsistent with Misplaced Pages's stated goal to summarize and present the current state of human knowledge. From where I stand (granted, probably a different vantage point from those who changed the guideline), we should be tightening WP:RS and being more demanding with our sourcing here, not less so. Misplaced Pages is inundated with promoters of fringe scientific/medical ideas, despite WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT, and weakening WP:RS to vaguely endorse "non-scholarly" sources will worsen that problem. MastCell 05:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
It would be very helpful for specialist Wikiprojects to work on developing guidelines on sourcing for their topic area -- guidelines which are close enough to the topics in question to be relevant, and far enough from specific content disputes to be reasonably stable. Once those guidelines develop and mature it would be sensible for RS to defer increasingly to them. However, at this point there has been remarkably little work in this direction... -- Visviva 09:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
There are a number of topics that don't have peer reviewed accademic journals to rely on. Take the topic of "railroading" for example: In an article about a train line, or a type of locomotive, we have to rely on amatures... hobbyists who wrote books on the topic or articles in railroad fan magazines. Some of these hobbyists can become well regarded and very expert on their narrow field of study, but they are not usually thought of as being "scholars". Under a strict interpretation of the pre-SV edit, it could be argued that they were not "reliable". Blueboar 11:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Many good points. I've made the following revision in attempt to take these into account:

"Misplaced Pages welcomes material written by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly material published by peer-reviewed journals. Such sources are preferred in subject areas where scholarly work is commonly performed, such as the natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities, but may not be available in other subject areas (such as topics related to popular culture). Misplaced Pages articles should represent all majority and significant-minority treatments of a topic, so long as the sources are reliable."

Clarifications, corrections, etc. of course welcome. Thanks to all for thoughtful discussion of this important topic. Raymond Arritt 13:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I've shortened this a little, and removed the restatement of WP:UNDUE, which is unnecessary - we don't need to highlight one other policy to follow as we should follow all the other policies. TimVickers 13:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages welcomes material published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals. Such sources are preferred in subjects such as medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities. However, alternative sources can be used when scholarly publications are not available - such as in topics related to popular culture or current events."

I don't much likes "wikipedia welcomes". How about "The best articles rely on material published…"? semper fictilis 14:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

True, what about focussing on reliability, which is the core of the issue:
"The most reliable material is published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals. Such sources are preferred in subjects such as medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities. However, alternative sources can be used when scholarly publications are not available - such as in topics related to popular culture or current events." TimVickers 14:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I like that. The "welcome" bit was left over from before. It gives the wrong impression -- "we're willing to accept it" rather than it being preferred. Raymond Arritt 14:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

In many technical fields the academic journals only cover leading edge technology. These scholarly journals are unlikely to report on the early commercial products that used this technology. The technical trade press, manufacturer's brochures and product service manuals, taken together, are reliable sources in tracing the history of a technology's introduction to the real world. What did a typical mini computer cost in 1970? What was the feature set? What types of semiconductors were used? Who was the leading supplier? This is the history of engineering and science, not popular culture or current events.

Moore's Law was published in Electronics, a trade magazine, not a peer review journal. Does someone want the tag the article as having dubious sources? -- SWTPC6800 19:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you feel this is adequately covered in the proposed new wording with "However, alternative reliable sources are used when scholarly publications are not available"? Tim Vickers 22:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
And if it had stayed only an article in Electronics, we wouldn't have an article on it - or if we did, it should be deleted as non-notable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Straw poll to assess if consensus has been reached

Version 1 - Misplaced Pages relies in part on material written by scientists, scholars, and researchers around the world. These may be outdated by more recent research, or may be controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly and non-scholarly treatments. Misplaced Pages articles should therefore ideally rely on all majority and significant-minority treatments of a topic, scholarly and non-scholarly, so long as the sources are reliable.
Version 2 - The most reliable material is published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses. These sources are preferred in subjects such as medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities. However, alternative reliable sources are used when scholarly publications are not available - such as in topics related to popular culture or current events.
Note - this second draft of version 2 contains two changes suggested below by Raymond Arritt and Semperf Tim Vickers 22:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Version 1


Version 2

  1. Tim Vickers 22:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  2. With friendly amendment - insert "reliable" after "alternative" in the last sentence of v.2, i.e., "However, alternative reliable sources..." Raymond Arritt 14:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  3. But suggest adding "and academic presses" after "peer-reviewed journals", since in some humanities fields books are just as important as articles as scholarly venues. semper fictilis 14:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  4. I do like this version better (and would agree with adding "academic presses". The Clinical Medicine Wikiproject has been developing medicine-specific RS guidelines (see WP:MEDRS), which might solve one of my major objections to version 1. However, I'm not clear on how these would interface or take precedence over the parent WP:RS guideline. MastCell 16:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  5. v1 doesn't make much sense: just because old scholarly research is superseded by new scholarly research doesn't mean we turn to non-scholarly research, and they're all still useful to report any controversy. –Pomte 19:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  6. Version 2 flows well, sounds reasonable and is appropriate. I reserve judgement on the suggested additions mentioned above until I see them in a paragraph. Jeepday (talk) 22:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  7. Definitely version 2. Where available, peer-reviewed writings supercede non-peer-reviewed. Non-peer reviewed may be used where they help to explain ideas, details or jargon, but not to contradict (per undue weight). Also agree with Arrit's edit ('reliable' insert) and Semperf's comment about 'academic presses'. R. Baley 22:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
    • These are some good observations and perhaps should be included in the text. The expansion "Non-peer reviewed sources may be used where they help to explain ideas, details or jargon, but not to contradict peer-reviewed sources" is especially helpful. Raymond Arritt 15:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
  8. Version 2, definitely. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
  9. with "alternative reliable sources" wording. --Aude (talk) 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
  10. Which version would be adopted by a reputable academic reference work? That's the one we want: version 2.Proabivouac 17:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
  11. Only if something like the following is added: "This is not an invitation to add material with uncertain sources; if there are no sources that are reliable per other aspects of policy, the material should not be included." I agree that the scholarly/non-scholarly wording makes no sense as it stands, but this can't be a backdoor means of creating a pop cult exception. Marskell 21:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
  12. Version 2; and we should consider moving it to WP:NOR, where more eyes will see it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added the new consensus wording on the page. Thanks to everybody who participated. Tim Vickers 04:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I tried to add the same material to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, since WP:V and WP:RS are supposed to be consistent with one another. It was summarily reverted. Oh well. Raymond Arritt 04:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I like the second version better, but I disagree with its assertion that scholarly sources cannot be found for "popular culture". There is good, scholarly material out there about all sorts of popular culture, and we shouldn't imply that there isn't. Therefore, I have no !vote. — Brian (talk) 04:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. There certainly are scholarly works on my favorite pop culture topic, for example. We could replace "such as in topics related to popular culture" with something like "as may be the case in some topics related to popular culture." Raymond Arritt 04:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
That would be better, yes. I think scholarly coverage of pop culture often just takes time. It's hard to find scholarly material on characters in current popular fiction, for example, but more information tends to appear as time passes. I've just finished researching an article on an obscure Merrie Melodies cartoon that's been banned from distribution for decades, and I was floored by how much had been written about it! — Brian (talk) 05:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't particularly like either. But I think they both miss important points. Anyone can call himself a scholar or researcher. The practical test is whether other scholars think you are one or are writing scholarly level material . They overemphasize the place that something is published - saying that the most reliable material is ... published in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses implicitly belittles works not found there. Again a better test is whether the person or theory is taken seriously in such places. Examples of non-academics in the sciences who are taken seriously by academia are Julian Barbour and James Lovelock. A major category of exception is journalists who write academic level works e.g. reviewed in scholarly journals and used as standard histories - e.g. the late Ze'ev Schiff "just a journalist" writing on Arab-Israeli conflict, who often wrote histories with another journalist Ehud Ya'ari. It is hard to think of any scholar of the subject who was more respected across the board.John Z 09:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The version now on the page incorporates your suggestion, Brian and Raymond:
"The most reliable material is published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses. These sources are preferred in subjects such as medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities. However, alternative reliable sources are used if scholarly publications are not available - which may be the case in topics related to popular culture or current events."
Substituting the wording from WP:verifiability is unhelpful, since it simply states that we should use "reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." This is a circular definition, since this definition of a "reliable source" is only that it is a reliable source. This is the page that must define precisely what these words mean. As to exceptions, yes John, there will be a few exceptions to this general rule. This is a guideline, rather than a policy - some exceptions are expected. Tim Vickers 12:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
John Z makes a good point, and I think that we were trying to recognize this principle in the last line concerning popular culture and current events. Perhaps this can be clarified. semper fictilis 12:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
As I noted above, the last line in the newest version has been changed, do you think this covers the concern? Tim Vickers 12:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
How about something like this:
"For many articles, the most reliable material is published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses. These sources are preferred in subjects such as medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities. However, alternative reliable sources are used if scholarly publications are not available - which may be the case In other articles, especially those related to popular culture or current events, sources must be found elsewhere."
It seems to me that what is important is that the guideline recognizes that different kinds of articles have different sources and makes this clear. semper fictilis 12:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

We have to move this discussion to Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability. That's the policy page; this one isn't. Note that every attempt to change the wording based on what's decided here is being summarily reverted, because it conflicts with WP:Verifiability. And when anyone tries to change WP:V, it's summarily reverted because the discussion was here, not there (which is reasonable). So the discussion has to be moved to Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability or we're simply wasting our time. Raymond Arritt 12:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

  • It seems to me that the appropriate place to discuss the evolution of a guideline is here, on the guideline page. If something here contradicts a policy, obviously it needs to be changed. But it is perfectly appropriate (and necessary) that a guideline will provide more guidance (hence "guideline") than is found in a policy. WP:V tells us that articles must depend on WP:RS. An improved guideline should help editors form judgements about what is good enough, better, and best in different kinds of articles. semper fictilis 14:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you, but unfortunately that doesn't matter because WP:V is the policy page. Anything we do here will be summarily reverted (and has been, several times) on the grounds that it's inconsistent with WP:V. Since WP:V is the mothership everything we do here is being dismissed out of hand. If we continue here, we're wasting our time. Raymond Arritt 14:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Nothing here can conflict with WP:V as the verifiability policy does not define reliable sources. All WP:V says is that reliable sources must be used. This is the page that must define reliable sources. Tim Vickers 16:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Time to relocate?

The discussion above has been useful, but Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is the actual policy page. It's disconcerting that the words "peer reviewed" appear nowhere on that policy page, much less the relevant merits of peer-reviewed and non-peer reviewed sources. To all who have been involved in this discussion, shall we continue continue at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability? Raymond Arritt 01:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Good idea; we'd get more eyes on it, for one thing. SlimVirgin 02:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Inline tag?

Is there a tag similar to the tag that can be placed inline in the article when a more reliable source is needed? Wrad 16:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is. At the moment we simply have to raise the issue on the talk page. This is a very interesting idea... I could see something along the lines of or ... something non-confrontational, but stating that the source used may not the best available. (Editing in History related articles, I could use something like this when I come across a citation to - for example - a History Channel documentary... which is not nescessarily an unreliable source, but is often not the best source available.) Blueboar 18:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I have run into a few cases where this would be very useful. As it is, this is one of the most difficult issues to point out on an article, because ref numbers change so often as an article is edited. I have a bit of knowledge about creating such templates. I'll see what I can do about it... Wrad 19:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I was about to create one, but it already exists at {{rs}}. I wonder why it isn't mentioned on this page? That would be very helpful. Wrad 19:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Well... {{rs}} sort of relates... but it seems to be a level of confrontation higher than what I was talking about. It questions whether the source is reliable at all, not whether there is a more reliable source that can be used. Blueboar 11:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. You're right. I like your , personally. I also think that all of these templates should be mentioned on this page (Once they're created, of course). Wrad 15:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
If you are good at creating tags, why don't you create a proposal for it... in the meantime, I am going to mention this at a few other places (such as the talk for WP:V, and perhaps at the Village Pump). I think it is worth gaining more imput. Blueboar 22:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm confident I can make the tag, but am unsure where to propose it... Wrad 22:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Would this be based on {{Refimprove}} maybe? Call it it {{ir}} (Improve reference) or {{nar}} (need additional reference) suggested text "needs additional references" kind of like {{or}} or {{fact}} signed Jeepday (talk) 23:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a very good idea. There's a lot of stuff that's sourced to some random webpage, when we really should have good sources on that topic. If the opinion is that {{rs}} is too harsh, it might be a better idea to just tone it down a little rather than creating a whole new class of tag (it's only being used on one article now anyway).--Pharos 00:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
{{rs}} has a useful purpose... it is for challenging whether a citation is in fact reliable. We should probably use it more often. However, it is more accusatory than what we are talking about. I like "Improve reference" or even the "needs additional references" (which says you can keep the so-so ref, but should find another one to bolster it).
I also think we should make it clear in some way that this tag is not a "challenge" (ie the statement should not be removed if another citation isn't found)... it is for situations where the original reference is on the reliable side of the line, but a better one should be found.Blueboar 02:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I just think it's a bad idea to have tags around that nobody's using. And if something really does have only a very bad source, the usual course is just to remove it. So, it might be preferable if not to change the existing RS tag, then at least to redirect it to whatever new thing we brew up.--Pharos 03:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Great idea! Another example: claims sourced only to newspaper opinion columns, not to news items. For non-confrontational language: perhaps "stronger source requested"? Cheers, CWC 02:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's how this whole thing started. I'm part of a group of editors trying to get William Shakespeare to FA status. We decided that we wanted the most reliable sources we could find, although the article's sources are for the most part ok, but not great. I wanted to find a tag to put on problem refs, but couldn't find one, and this was proposed. Wrad 02:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

There used to be a template "betterfact". It might be useful to read the WP:TFD discussion and see if those concerns can be addressed.Gimmetrow 07:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer, Gimmetrow. Here's a list of problems people had with "betterfact" in that TfD:
  • "very large and intrusive marker"
  • "typographic travesty" (?!)
  • "'Better' is a matter of opinion ... could be used to push a POV in cases where someone doesn't like a particular reliable source for whatever reason"
  • "no established criterion for when the should be removed"
Another good point from the TfD: in articles using <ref> footnotes, our proposed tag should go inside the <ref> so that is appears in the footnote, not the article body.
Here's an possible wording to kick around:
Cheers, CWC 07:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

New section

I added a new section to this page: Frequently used sources that do not qualify as reliable. Feel free to edit it, improve on it, or remove it and discuss it here. Cheers. SalaSkan 11:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

How about ranking sources from least to most reliable, as an example?
  1. Anything the average Joe can edit: (wikis, blogs, discussion forums)
  2. Poorly written or constructed websites that don't site their sources
  3. Tertiary sources which summarize material such as encyclopedias, Sparknotes, etc.
  4. Primary sources are excellent unless cited to support original research
  5. Secondary sources discussing primary works are excellent, especially those coming from academic, peer reviewed sources

Something like that. Most people don't know what is and isn't reliable. We should explain it. This is just a start. Wrad 15:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

wikiprojects and subject specific reliability guides

The idea of including wikiprojects is a good idea. But in practical terms how do we see this developing? Presumably the guidelines will develop on a wikiproject page or subpage. But once it reaches consensus, how would it be linked back to WP:RS? semper fictilis 12:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

How about a Template for reliable resources with Misplaced Pages articles?

I just referenced The Political Graveyard on the article James K. Dressel and I did a wikilink to The Political Graveyard (I also do this for IMDb, etc). Which lead to a thought; there are a lot of notable sources out there, many of which are used as references on wikipedia and also have article here. What do editors here think about making a template to place on articles that addresses the reliability of the source as a reference? (I am thinking small right side template like {{Wikispecies}} or {{wiktionary}}) What would it say? How would you address rating? Jeepday (talk) 15:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

We're talking about something along these lines farther up on the talk page, if you'd like to join in. I'm interested in your proposal. Wrad 15:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Where? This page is 216 kilobytes long. It may be helpful to move older discussion into an archive subpage. See Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page page for guidance Jeepday (talk) 15:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. On second thought, let's keep the discussion here. My proposal was more for an inline tag. I'm not sure I completely understand your proposal. Something that explains the reliability of a source? Wrad 15:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

An example would be on IMDb a small template that looks similar to {{wiktionary}} with the text "IMDb is considered a good reference on Misplaced Pages only for basic information." or maybe the text "Misplaced Pages editors consider IMDb to be a good reference only for basic information. See talk for Reliables Source Rating discussion. Jeepday (talk) 16:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
So this would be in the See also section of articles about the sources they tag. Wrad 16:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The template addressing reliability of for IMDb would be on IMDb the the template addressing reliability for the CIA "World Factbook" would be on the article The World Factbook so that when a reader or editor is reading James K. Dressel they can click on the link to The Political Graveyard and learn if Misplaced Pages considers "The Political Graveyard" to be a reliable reference, and if they have questions they could go to Talk:The Political Graveyard#Reliables Source Rating Discussion (just made this up, there is no "Reliables Source Rating discussion" on Talk:The Political Graveyard) to see why it considered reliable or not. Jeepday (talk) 16:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Would we need a source to back up our statement about its reliability, or is it just decided by consensus based on WP guidelines? How would we keep these uniform? Wrad 16:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

A section Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Frequently used sources that do not qualify as reliable was just added here and it is based on editor perception. I think if we had some kind of rating system similar to what is used in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biography/Assessment it could be applied consistently across article (would require some kind of project to set the rating system). Then the discussion about each reference could occur on the talk page of article about the reference. Jeepday (talk) 16:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
So, a WikiProject:Reliable sources to set up a rating system? I think it would help. This is one of the biggest problems on wikipedia. How would it be similar to the Biography assessment? Wrad 16:46, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
First step would be to name values for the ratings and define them. using a format based loosely on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Quality_scale. Jeepday (talk) 16:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm all for looking into it. Perhaps we should propose a Wikiproject. We could rate sources and whatnot on their talk pages or something. Wrad 17:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea, Currently there are only two of us. How can we get more support?

How many sources are required?

Can a controversial statement be concerned a fact by Misplaced Pages standards if it is supported by one reliable source, while other comparable sources fail to mention it? An editor recently wrote on Template talk:History of Manchuria: "Misplaced Pages requests proof from reliable sources, but has no requirement on number of reliable sources." I'm not sure how well this matches the intent of this policy page.—Nat Krause 17:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The editor may have been referring to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. Jeepday (talk) 17:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
This guideline says nothing about the number of reliable sources... all we say is that a source must be reliable. WP:V seems to indicate that one reliable source is all that is needed. However, you should note that there are other policies that come into play on this issue. The Undue weight of WP:NPOV would apply if the "fact" is not a commonly held view. Blueboar 21:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Press Releases - RS?

Press releases are often the basis of news articles about a subject, particularly when it relates to announcements (e.g., Joe Smith is New VP, Mary Jones to Release New Album, etc). Is it appropriate to link directly to the press release (which often has more complete information) as a reference source, instead of just the news articles that excerpt it? Risker 19:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The bit on primary, secondary, and tertiary sources at WP:NOR provides some guidance. For basic facts such as you describe they're probably OK. For uses beyond such straightforward info one has to recognize that press releases often contain puffery, so it's better to rely on secondary sources that cover them when possible. Raymond Arritt 20:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The information in a press release used as a source by a reliable newspaper is reliable, but the reliability depends not upon the press release, but upon the authority of the newspaper. The newspaper article should be the one cited. The article may have omitted some material which it thinks less reliable (such as praise of the subject), or added some of its own. This is an exception to the general rule that the original source is better, because the original source has no independent editorial control and the newspaper does.,DGG 20:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I was thinking specifically of fact information (graduated from..., names of performers on albums, etc.) that would be relevant to the article but may not be interesting or important enough for a brief news report. The puffery part, I absolutely agree upon. So would I be correct in interpreting this to mean that factual information MAY be acceptable, but should be included with caution and other sources sought to replace/support the press release? Risker 20:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd say that's a reasonable conclusion. The more basic and unambiguous the facts in question, the better -- e.g., "XYZ Corp. holds its Annual Meeting on 25 June" would be OK, but "XYZ Corp. is the leading manufacturer of pocket diaper steamers" would not. (What does "leading" mean, for a start?) Raymond Arritt 21:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that's about right, but with some caveats re BLP information. In BLP material, where all reliable secondary sources have left out specific information about a relatively unknown person, given in press releases and similar primary sources, the information is not supposed to go into the article (see WP:BLP#People who are relatively unknown). WP:BLP#Well known public figures prohibits the use of e.g. material from public records that has not been presented by a reliable secondary source; I'm not sure how this translates to press releases. AvB ÷ talk 21:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
How about we create Misplaced Pages:Verifiability/Examples? Different people have different learning styles. I for one prefer examples. Jehochman 01:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Someone left a note on my talk page saying there was a discussion here about scholarly/non-scholarly sources, but I don't see it. The point is that we use academic and non-academic sources, obviously, and this page must reflect that. SlimVirgin 21:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Searching on scholarly would have found it, but it's #A bit that I find questionable. above. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The policy says "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources." No mention of scholarly sources. Any attempt to prioritize them over other mainstream sources flies in the face of V and NPOV. SlimVirgin 07:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
If we want a caveat based on subject area it might be "Primacy should be given to scholarly sources, particularly in the sciences. Historical and arts topics will often have a greater range of reliable material, scholarly and non-scholarly." It needs a caveat if its to go in at all, but singling out Pop culture, as Tim's edit did, is not the way to do it.
But this will take up two lines on V, so I suggest moving it there. While we're at it, let's tighten the wording on Exceptional claims and move it over as well. Marskell 07:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The exceptional claims thing is already in V, as I recall. It would definitely be better to discuss this there, because this is just a guideline, and it can't contradict the policies. SlimVirgin 08:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I've copied thist discussion to WT:V. Marskell 08:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, let's keep the WP:V statement that reliable sources must be used, and add our consensus wording on what constitutes reliable sources in the section on "Types of source material". We can't however try to define reliable sources with a statement that reliable sources must be used - that is circular logic that will not help the reader. Tim Vickers 16:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
It's not consensus wording. There are people objecting, and it arguably contradicts V and NPOV. SlimVirgin 18:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of section on generally unacceptable sources

Salaskan, please don't add that list of non-reliable sources again. It contains material that's meaningless, e.g. "A confidential source, i.e. those sources which are considered confidential by the originating publisher may hold uncertain authority, as the original cannot be used to validate the reference." That completely misunderstands the policy. SlimVirgin 18:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I notice you deleted this entire section SlimVirgin, but I must have missed you proposing this change on the talk page. When did you discuss this and gain consensus for this drastic change in the guideline? Tim Vickers 18:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Tim, there is no consensus to add this, so I don't need to seek consensus to remove it, in addition to which it contains nonsense. Please explain what the confidential thing quoted above means. SlimVirgin 18:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
My word, looking that the history I see this page has been almost completely gutted over the last few weeks. Why on earth is this so controversial? Tim Vickers 19:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Tim, you're not editing responsibly. You're adding material that is meaningless, then refusing to say on talk what it means, while complaining that others won't engage you on talk. I am trying to engage you, so please don't ignore me. You need to say what this means: "A confidential source, i.e. those sources which are considered confidential by the originating publisher may hold uncertain authority, as the original cannot be used to validate the reference." SlimVirgin 19:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
That is a little unclear, where you have minor issues with wording such as that, the best way to approach this is surely to re-work the sentence, rather than deleting the entire section? I'd support changing that sentence to "A confidential source, i.e. sources which are considered confidential by the editor who cites them, as the original cannot be inspected by other editors to validate the reference." Tim Vickers 19:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Agree. The section can be reworded, but it provides a useful guidance about sources. --Aude (talk) 19:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Disagree. This is a guideline while WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR are policies. Therefore we cannot contradict the policies here. We do allow unnamed authors - our focus is on the publisher, not the individual author. A 'confidential source' could be acceptable if published by a well-vetted reputable publication. In general, it is a bad idea to enumerate these types of sources, because their acceptability and prioritization depends on the context and on our own editorial judgment, where V, NPOV etc. are the controlling policies. Having this section in place will only add confusion, nor reduce it. Crum375 19:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Tim, rather than tweaking the wording, please say what you think it means. SlimVirgin 20:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It means that if somebody cites what they say is a secret document and they refuse to show this document to other people, this isn't a reliable source. Tim Vickers 20:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

When you say "this" isn't a reliable source, do you mean the document, or the publisher of what the document purportedly contains? SlimVirgin 21:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

"A confidential source, i.e. documents that are considered confidential by the editor who cites them, as these documents cannot be inspected by other editors to validate the reference." Clear? Tim Vickers 21:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Avoid cross-posting. Discussion is at WT:V ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a discussion of a different section of this guideline. Tim Vickers 21:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Tim, you're being very unclear. I'll ask again: What do you mean by "this" in the sentence: "It means that if somebody cites what they say is a secret document and they refuse to show this document to other people, this isn't a reliable source."
You can't mean the document, because it's not our source, obviously, if we haven't seen it and it's unpublished. So by "this" do you mean the publisher of the purported content of the secret document? If the latter, it means if the NYT tells us they obtained a secret CIA document that implies X, but they can't tell us exactly what it says or show it, then we can't publish their story, which is nonsense, because our source is the NYT, which counts as a reliable source.
These examples have been discussed a thousand times over the last few years on this page, at ATT, at NOR, and at V. Yet here are you raising the issue again, and without saying what your new arguments are, or what you mean precisely.
Therefore, please explain very clearly and in full what the section about confidential sources means exactly; otherwise, you're just wasting our time. SlimVirgin 21:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Tim, I see that you hadn't edited NPOV, NOR, V, RS, or ATT, or their talk pages, until two days ago, yet you're rushing in to add material that was rejected a long time ago, for good reason, and asking us to go through the arguments for the millionth time, which frankly isn't fair. If you want to make big changes, can I ask you please to spend some time reading the related policies carefully and checking the archives first? SlimVirgin 22:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I realise you may have spent a lot of your time on Misplaced Pages in editing these pages, but we should be able to work together effectively on this and you share some of the insights that you have gained from your huge experience of the finicky details of policy making. Something we found useful at the Evolution page as to have a Talk:Evolution/FAQ, where you could deal with these arguments you make millions of times to each inexperienced administrator who comes along. Might that save you some work?

To expand on my answer above, I would rewrite this sentence to say - "A confidential source, i.e. documents that are considered confidential by the editor who cites them, as these documents cannot be inspected by other editors to validate the reference." Here, if a confidential document is cited in a reliable source, such as the NYT, we can cite the NYT. However, if a person has read confidential government reports (which would be reliable sources if they were accessible to others), they cannot add the material in these reports to Misplaced Pages. Tim Vickers 22:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Given various brush fires, another one over "confidential sources" is probably not best, Tim. The addition in question was well-intended, but difficult to explain and certainly difficult to police.
One meal at a time. The Evolution/FAQ is good (I remember the article on FAR) and it hits on some of the points we've been debating. (Global Warming has something very similar.) Let's deal with the issue of science sourcing first and, particularly, let's kill as best we can the idea that scholarly sources should be treated equally to generic sources. But let's do it on WT:V. Again, it matters more there.
Confidential sources are not our largest worry right now. Marskell 22:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
No, this is important, because the addition of those sections shows a fundamental failure to understand the sourcing policies. Tim, you wrote: "Here, if a confidential document is cited in a reliable source, such as the NYT, we can cite the NYT. However, if a person has read confidential government reports (which would be reliable sources if they were accessible to others), they cannot add the material in these reports to Misplaced Pages."
Yes. Obviously. So what you're saying is we don't use unpublished documents as sources, not that we don't use confidential ones. And we know that already. We don't use unpublished sources no matter why they're unpublished: whether it's because they're secret, or because they're crap, or for whatever other reason. Unpublished is unpublished. No need for a separate section on each of the ways they might be unpublished. And because of your failure to understand this simple point, I've had to waste hours today responding to you, but if I don't do it, I'm accused of being unresponsive, and therefore not allowed to revert. It's called hostage-taking in other contexts. SlimVirgin 23:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
A government secret report has certainly been published, but it is not publicly available as it is confidential. However, as you feel this discussion to be a waste of your time, I will bring it to a close here and apologise if I have annoyed you by appearing to be uninformed and slow to understand simple concepts. Thank you for your patience. I think I agree with Marskell, let's concentrate all our efforts on the more important issue being discussed at WP:V. Tim Vickers 23:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Types of source material

The section that was agreed on above has now been repeatedly removed by users SlimVirgin and Crum375 with the explanation that this contradicts the WP:Verifiability policy.

The proposed, consensus addition:

The most reliable material is published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses. These sources are preferred in subjects such as medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities. However, alternative reliable sources are used if scholarly publications are not available - which may sometimes be the case in topics such as popular culture or current events.

The policy it that it is thought it might contradict:

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made.

What is the contradiction? Tim Vickers 18:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The contradiction is that V and NPOV do not prioritize scholarly sources, and indeed make clear that all majority and significant-minority published views must be represented, within the limitations laid down by V and NOR. SlimVirgin 19:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
In other words, a story in a local newspaper carries the same weight as a paper in the Physical Review? Raymond Arritt 19:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I didn't say that either. This discussion is taking place at WT:V, by the way, so I won't be commenting again here. SlimVirgin 19:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, this is a guideline, and as such must follow the policies, not contradict them. Secondly, our primary goal is to follow WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE, while adhering to verifiable sourcing per WP:V. We need to prioritize mainstream publications and mainstream views, not 'academia' vs. news media, which could run afoul of NPOV. We also prioritize well-vetted published sources vs. minimally vetted ones, which is a core component of WP:V. But we cannot blindly promote 'scholarly' over 'non-scholarly' for example, as that could easily violate our core NPOV and V policies. Also, we must focus on the publishers and their vetting mechanisms, not on the individual authors. Crum375 19:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
(ec) OK, so a story in a local newspaper does the same weight as a paper in the Physical Review. This needs to be more prominently noted, because many contributors assume otherwise. Raymond Arritt 19:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Scholarly publications, such as peer-reviewed journals and academic publishers, are well-vetted published sources, to an even greater extent than news media. There is no contradiction to say "The most reliable material is published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses." --Aude (talk) 19:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I think the problem is that people read "The most reliable material..." as saying that this is the only reliable material. This is not the case, all this says is that this is the most reliable material and, as a result it is "preferred" in the subject areas listed. I think this statement is true for these subjects - peer-reviewed sources in the sciences etc are indeed usually the most reliable and they are indeed preferred as a result. This is of course completely different from saying that you cannot use non-peer-reviewed sources, all it says that if peer-reviewed and scholarly sources exist, they are usually the most reliable. A guideline cannot contradict a policy, all it can do is expand and clarify such policies. Tim Vickers 19:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

How about rewording it to say, "The most reliable material for subjects such as medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities are published by scientists, scholars, and researchers, particularly publications in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses. However, alternative reliable sources are used if scholarly publications are not available - which may sometimes be the case in topics such as popular culture or current events." --Aude (talk) 19:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Please let's keep this discussion in one place at WT:V, where it matters more. Marskell 19:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of changes under way

Discussion of changes to this article is under way at Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability#Sources. This is mentioned within above comments above. (SEWilco 23:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

No discussion of change to this page is under discussion there. It's a proposal to change that page that's being discussed. What this page says is largely irrelevant, because V is the policy. SlimVirgin 00:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:RS Guideline Deprecated?

My understanding is that this guideline has been deprecated in favor of WP:V and WP:NOR. This page in current form is mainly a signpost to direct users to the appropriate place. I am wondering why there are ongoing discussions here, when these discussions seem like they should move to those policy pages instead. Jehochman 23:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There's certainly nothing on the page that indicates that it's deprecated. That should be fixed, because almost everyone I've interacted with thinks that it's still in effect. Raymond Arritt 23:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I would certainly be in favor of redirecting this title to WP:V. The phrase "reliable sources" is referred to a lot, but that's because WP:V, which is the policy, uses that phrase, so people get mixed up and think this page is the policy. It would be good to redirect it so that the misunderstanding stops. SlimVirgin 23:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of simplicity and consistency we should remove this redundant guideline. Jehochman 23:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I fully agree - this should be redirected to WP:V. Anything else causes constant confusion. Crum375 00:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems the "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" part is the only thing not fully redundant to WP:V, and there seems no reason that could not be added there. 2005 00:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Agree; the only thing of value in it is the phrase "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", which should be moved to WP:V. The rest either duplicates policy or contradicts it. Jayjg 00:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
It's in V, second sentence in the Sources section. SlimVirgin 00:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I stand corrected; then there's nothing of value in it that is not already found in WP:V. Jayjg 01:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
There's more emphasis about the fact we expect reliable sources to be cited when we refer people to a page called "Reliable sources". It's useful to detail what we mean by reliable sources when we say that in WP:V and elsewhere. People still often refer to this page and it's certainly still active. --Aude (talk) 00:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
People refer to this page because they get mixed up. It doesn't actually say anything. SlimVirgin 00:53, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't say anything, because the passage about reliable sources and scholarly sources keeps being removed. The page needs to explain what we mean by reliable sources, what's generally expected for articles on scientific topics and other topics and what's generally not acceptable. Of course, we have WP:IAR for exceptions. But this page needs to be meaningful and elaborate/support WP:V. It's handy to refer people to this page, with the page title also meaningful. --Aude (talk) 01:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The page title would still exist; the suggestion is to redirect it, not delete it. SlimVirgin 01:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Understood. But, it's more helpful for people to come to a page with this title, and not a redirect to another page. The word reliable is important, and this page can discuss what we mean. What reliable means may be one thing for scientific articles, something else for biographies, pop culture, and many other topics. But, it's an important idea-- important enough that it can't hurt to give extra emphasis, reiterate, and discussion of it here. The WP:V page would be helpful to keep short, simple, and more concise. --Aude (talk) 01:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
This page is needed to give guidance on what are reliable sources and what is not and provide expansion on the policy summarised at WP:V. At present, the WP:V policy only states that reliable sources are "third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" This is clearly insufficient for new editors unsure of what this might mean. However, although more specific examples will be useful for the reader, there will always have exceptions, so any such general guidance would be inappropriate for policy. Hence, this clarification needs to be done in a guideline. Tim Vickers 01:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Aude and Tim; the problem exists because most of the needed content here was removed months ago (around November 2006, I think) during the writing of ATT. The solution is to restore and rework the lost content hre. We need a guideline that expands on the policy, as we had before the ATT situation. WP:V lost too much of WP:RS, and it was never replaced here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Strongly agree with SG here. The old RS page was tremendously helpful, whereas WP:V is so vague that it invites a lot of edit warring. But I think the solution is to improve WP:V instead of having two different pages that can drift out of sync. Raymond Arritt 02:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I, too, strongly agree with SandyGeorgia. I was very upset to discover some critical content missing, and I am hardly alone.Proabivouac 02:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the page needs to be redirected to WP:V. It's too confusing to have two pages that cover the same ground. At the same time, WP:V in its present state is hopelessly inadequate and needs to be revised so that it gives useful guidance. Ideally we would have a single, useful page rather than two poor ones. Raymond Arritt 01:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
We tried to have one for a while, Raymond; see WP:ATT, and it worked very well, but then it was overturned. SlimVirgin 01:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
No. WP:ATT also folded WP:NOR into the mix, a huge difference. Raymond Arritt 01:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
It is rather confusing to have two pages, and seems a bit pointless. I too would be happy with a redirect. ElinorD (talk) 01:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I never thought of it this way before, but Aude's rationale for keeping the page with this title seems a very good one: Reliable sources. And i agree with Tim that we need this to explain things adequately.DGG 02:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Even if WP:V is to legitimize the liberal resort to junk sources, we should still provide a reliable source guideline to aid those editors who want to produce serious quality articles anyway.Proabivouac 02:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Redirect to WP:V and start developing a WP:V/FAQ in which we can expand on general examples and provide answers to commonly asked questions related to sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We need to keep policy brief. An FAQ would be extremely helpful. Would this address your concerns, SandyGeorgia? Jehochman 05:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Started. Of course, it means we'll still have a page to watch. The FAQ format may be preferable though. Marskell 09:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Why an FAQ? The title of this page, "Reliable sources" is more to the point. We should work material that used to be in the WP:RS page, back into it and make it a useful guideline. --Aude (talk) 12:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I went back and looked at the RS page, as it was in October. Wow! Folks have sure been busy eliminating a lot of stuff from this page. I don't think that's a good thing. Not helpful. We need to keep this page and work back in some of the useful material that used to be here. For example, the page used to say:

"Reliability is a spectrum, and must be considered on a case-by-case basis. Typically peer reviewed publications are considered to be the most reliable, with established professional publications next. Government publications are often reliable, but governments vary widely in their level of reliability, and often have their own interests which will explicitly allow for withholding of information, or other motives."

Saying this in the WP:RS guideline would be helpful. More of what use to be in the guideline is at User:Aude/Reliable sources, which may have other useful bits that need to be worked back into the guideline. --Aude (talk) 12:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to somewhere provide people with guidance on reliable sources. The logical place to do that seems to be Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. If there is a reason to do it somewhere else, I would want to know where else and why. Right now the material seems to be everywhere. Poking around a little, Misplaced Pages:Attribution#Reliable sources points to WP:NOR#Sources and back to FAQ: Types of source material. WP:NOR#Sources says the main article is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, which says see also Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources and Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons. Should we pick one place to record what the core policies imply about reliable sources, and summarize it where ever else it would be useful? I haven't followed these discussions as closely as many others have, so excuse me if we have already been over this and point me to the conclusion. Tom Harrison 14:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Certainly WP:V should talk about reliable sources, but expanding on it and addressing people's questions in one place such as WP:RS is very helpful. We should build this page back up, to something better than what was here before. But, some of what used to be here may be worth including. And discussion of sources on those other pages could be covered here. --Aude (talk) 14:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I support Aude's position. There is no need to be averse to having two pages that relate to one another: WP:V should be primarily about dealing with why we verify material (like it says in the "nutshell" box) and WP:RS should be primarily about what sources to use. There was a lot of good content here once. I do not know if the removal was an attempt to cater for short attention spans or something, but that sort of thing is neither necessary nor desirable. Whatever we need to include in order to provide a detailed guideline with good coverage, we should not shy away from that. If V and RS were to be merged/redirected, it would do nothing positive for their content, intention, or usability. Adrian M. H. 16:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

We can rename this Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources, frequently asked questions or some such, and fold in WP:ATTFAQ. Much of that page is consensus, and should be salvaged; much of it is too longwinded for a policy page. This page's bits and pieces should also be considered; some of them may be more appropriate as policy, others as pages of their own. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I like that idea, but the bottom line is that it should be EASY for a user to find information on 'what is reliable', with examples like 'are blogs/newspapers/journals/etc. reliable?'. I have spent countless hours engaged in discussion of whether a given source was reliable or not because we lack answers to simple questions like that. As a content creator, I'd be much happier if people editing those policy pages would stop highly theoretical arguments about semantics of some WP:V wording, and instead ensured we have policy/guidelines answering basic questions asked by content creators.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

As many discussions around wiki show, theory of verifiability is hardly questioned, same with reliability. The latter is however much more useful and in need of being fleshed out and clearly defined, thus I'd say that this page is of much more practical importance then WP:V (of course I agree that WP:V is much more important in theory, but for people writing articles, nine times out of then, WP:RS is more relevant then WP:V).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

section "What is a reliable source?"

"In general, an article should use the most reliable and appropriate published sources to cover all majority and significant-minority published views, in line with Neutral point of view."

It concerns me that this wording seems to imply that the point of view comes first, and the best sources are found to support it. My understanding is that points of view are included because they exist in reliable sources. Tom Harrison 14:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree with you both in implication and correct priority. --BozMo talk 16:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
"It concerns me that this wording seems to imply that the point of view comes first, and the best sources are found to support it."
That is indeed a very common approach, and we should do everything we can do discourage it.Proabivouac 02:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Generally unacceptable sources

Some people wished to delete this section as there was "no consensus" to include it. I moved it to my user space, feel free to comment on it here. What exactly does this guideline overlook or say wrong? Do you want to include it or not? Let's try to build consensus here. SalaSkan 14:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This has two parts; a list of definitions, which seem quite reasonable, and a list of specific unreliable, or often unreliable, sources, which is a grabbag. I would support inclusion of the definitions, in some form; the list of examples seems both arbitrary and controversial. (I largely agree with it; but stigmatizing Urban Dictionary and deprecating the scientific content of the Bible both need discussion.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Examples are out of place, particularly considering we have Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Examples - which was split off exactly because discussion of specific examples was unbalanacing this page. PS. But for the record, I am definetly in favor of keeping the well designed sections on what is reliable and unreliable sources, the reliability issues seem like the biggest achievement of the ATT fiasco.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

a project to assess reliability of frequently used references

User Wrad and myself recently discussed a project to assess reliability of frequently used references here. It looks like there is room for combining towards a single goal. Jeepday (talk) 01:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
there are probably some sources you will be able to specify as being accepted almost unconditionally, but almost all are accepted to a greater or lesser degree, and i am not sure how a template will do it. Septentrionalis's examples are very much to the point. DGG 00:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Just thinking out loud here, but maybe a rating system based (very) loosely on the example Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Quality_scale. Even if you begin by just listing the areas the source would be considered primary for and the giving a rating of it's known fact checking as a secondary and/or tertiary source. Jeepday (talk) 14:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Just start with People magazine as being most reliable, as that's where it will get moved to. Repeatedly. (SEWilco 15:22, 30 June 2007 (UTC))

A project to assess reliability of frequently used references: we have Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for discussion, and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Examples for preservation of findings and such. I'd suggest working with those pages - no need to reinvent what we already have.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Why use a reliable source section

I think we should overhaul the "why use" section. At the moment I think we could be clearer about the important negatives that RS are important for (RS help us not violate NOR and NPOV and various bits of NOT). More importantly, however, the positive seems left more or less unstated: RS help us make a better encyclopedia. semper fictilis 15:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could write a new draft for review?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:54, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Will do. I'll get started later tonight. semper fictilis 22:08, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Current version

For the record.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Sources are used:

  • To support an assertion made in an article. Sources used in this manner should be directly referenced for the point that is being supported.
  • To give credit to the source, to avoid the appearance of plagiarism or copyright violations.

If all the sources for a given statement or topic are of low reliability, the material may not be suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages.

Draft

Heres a draft. semper fictilis 02:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is, before anything else, an encyclopedia, and as such aims at being authoritative. The best paper encyclopedias achieve this by hiring experts to write its articles. Misplaced Pages's articles, by contrast, are written mostly by non-experts who depend on Reliable Sources for their information. The citation of sources, then, helps establish authority by supporting assertions made in an article. Citing sources also

  • helps other editors know which details in an article are secure and which may need further examination;
  • helps direct readers who want to know more about a subject towards useful bibiography;
  • helps avoid Original Research, since the existence of a reliable source proves that a fact, argument, or theory has been presented to the world in other fora;
  • helps facilitate Neutral Point of View, which promotes the inclusion of all significant points of view, since views that are supported by reliable sources are by definition worthy of inclusion;
  • help give credit to the source, thereby making clear that plagiarism and/or copyright violations have been avoided.

Finally, citing a reliable source proves that what is being added is worth including because it is verifiable.


Hmmm, I'd incorporate the two current notions, and try to link WP:V and WP:CITE too.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Good point. I've squeezed the first of the two points ("support assertions") into the first part, and copyvio to the end. And I've added WP:V to its own sentence. WP:CITE, which is about mechanics, I think should be brought up later in the article. semper fictilis 02:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest changes as below:

Misplaced Pages is, before anything else, an encyclopedia, and as such aims at being authoritative. The best paper encyclopedias achieve this by hiring experts to write its articles. Misplaced Pages's articles, by contrast, are written mostly by non-experts who depend on reliable sources for their information. The citation of sources helps establish authority by supporting assertions made in an article. Citing sources also

  • helps other editors know which details in an article are verified and which may need further examination;
  • helps direct readers who want to know more about a subject towards useful bibliography;
  • helps avoid original research, since the existence of a reliable source proves that a fact, argument, or theory has been presented to the world in other fora;
  • helps facilitate Neutral Point of View, which promotes the inclusion of all significant points of view, since views that are supported by reliable sources are by definition worthy of inclusion;
  • helps give credit to the source, thereby making clear that plagiarism and/or copyright violations have been avoided.
That's better. I've fixed a typo or two. Also: (1) I've struck "by definition worthy of inclusion", since that could be used for mischief and any argument about that question should be referring to WP:V and WP:UNDUE, not here. (2) I suspect the order could be more effective. semper fictilis 16:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Open wikis, including Misplaced Pages as unacceptable sources.

I just had an occurrence of finding a wikipedia article cited as a supporting source. I reverted that, and explained my reversion on the article's talk page. However, I had to jump through hoops to find a spot in the guidelines where it says clearly that Misplaced Pages (and other open wikis) are not reliable sources. I see this often enough that I am convinced that this guideline needs to be made more visible. Accordingly, I have revised the "Generally unacceptable sources" subsection to explicitly list Misplaced Pages in particular, and other open wikis in the explanation of that as a generally unacceptable source. My intention is to wait a few days to see what discussion of this develops here, and then make similar changes in WP:V and, possible, in WP:CITE. -- Boracay Bill 07:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I saw your change Diff it looks appropriate. Jeepday (talk) 14:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
With the disclaimer that wikis are a type of self-published source, and so in certain cases they may be appopriate, I do agree that on average, their reliability is very low - and I do think that we had (have?) a rule of 'Misplaced Pages articles are not suitable references for other Misplaced Pages articles).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
If such a statement has gotten lost in the shuffle, we need to re-add it. That has long been the rule. Blueboar 17:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It has been already discussed that there is no consensus in providing such examples. Removed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

See above #Generally unacceptable sources ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that specific examples can be removed, there is no consensus for them - they belong to WP:RSEX anyway. But the sections themselves are extremly useful, we need that level of detail for this policy to be actually useful for content editors.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I looked at that, and that discussion seemed to be about a wider, more general subject. Specifically, I propose that this guideline say, explicitly and clearly, that open wikis are not considered reliable sources and should not be cited — and that this specifically applies to Misplaced Pages articles. A clear statement of this guideline is needed in order to support challenges to or removal of instances of citations of wikipedia articles as supporting sources. -- Boracay Bill 04:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur. --Coolcaesar 07:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
That is already obvious in policy. See WP:SPS ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess you mean WP:SPS#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29. I disagree that it is obvious there that the section speaks of Misplaced Pages articles. I can read into it a presumption that Misplaced Pages is no better than a blog, making Misplaced Pages articles "largely unacceptable" as sources. Some, though, would probably not agree with equating Misplaced Pages with a blog, and "largely unacceptable" isn't strong enough.

Please note that with the recent removal of the "Generally acceptable source" and "Generally unacceptable sources" sections from this article, there is now no clear statement which I have been able to find that Misplaced Pages articles not to be cited as sources. One can draw that conclusion by reading the "What is a reliable source?" section of this article and mulling it over. One might be able to convince another Misplaced Pages editor who disagrees with that conclusion; or might not. If the answer to the question, "May Misplaced Pages articles be cited as supporting sources?" requires a talk page discussion to answer, I'll just give up on this point and stop challenging the cites of Misplaced Pages articles which I sometimes run across (yesterday, I removed two of these in two separate articles). -- Boracay Bill 23:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of Best_Week_Ever

Does that show count as a reliable source? Corpx 09:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Please ask questions about specific sources at the noticeboard.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  10:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Short answer is... it depends ... it depends on what article you are using it in (a quote from the show itself is a reliable source in the article about the show), and what you are trying to say in that article. to give any further advice we would need specifics... and as Piotr has noted, the best place for that is the noticeboard. Blueboar 12:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Generally acceptable and unacceptable sources

Since those sections were removed (and restored, and removed, etc.) let's try to discuss whether we want to keep them, remove them or rewrite them. As a content editor, I find them extremly useful insofar as they tell me that:

  1. Books and journals published by universities and known publishing houses;
  2. Mainstream newspapers and magazines published by notable media outlets;
  3. Books written by widely published authors;
  4. Mainstream websites published and maintained by notable media outlets

are reliable and further, note some specific qualities in a checklist that allow one to identify if a source is reliable (if it has editorial oversight, for example) or not (if its an anonymous source or article from Misplaced Pages). I am sure that those sections can be tweaked, maybe some editors would object to parts of them, would like to introduce other items to the checklist or would like to rewrite some for clarification, but as a content editor who spend hours arguing over reliability of newspapers or obsolete sources, I think it is crucial that we have a policy that clearly what those paragraph state. As I wrote before, without them, this policy (and WP:V, too) are an exercise in philosophy with little usefulness for content editors, who all agree that we should use verifiable, reliable sources, but then spend countless hours arguing about the definition of those terms. Those two paras contribute greatly to the definition of reliability, and thus should remain in the article (of course, I am all for rewriting and improving any unclear or inconsistent fragments).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Just as useful, IMO, was the clear statement that

  1. anonymous sources
  2. unpublished sources
  3. obsolete sources
  4. confidential source
  5. questionable sources
  6. self-published sources
  7. Misplaced Pages articles, or any article from open wikis
Are generally unacceptable (with some case-by-case exceptions and amplifications which were explained at that point) . I added the final item to that list less than 24 hours prior to the deletion of those sections. My purpose in doing that was to provide a clear statement that could be cited in an edit summary. I know that WP:V#What_is_a_reliable_source.3F and WP:OR#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources cover this, but they don't cover this specifically, clearly, or concisely. I want to be able to point to something in an edit summary which clearly says that a citation which I'm challenging or removing is not considered acceptable. -- Boracay Bill 02:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. But also we need to be able to point out that a source is reliable: I had a looong discussion recently with a user who argued that newspapers are never reliable, and any fact giving newspaper as a source is as good as having no source at all...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  11:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I’m not sure how prescriptive we can make such lists, however worthy. While their inclusion provides better insight into what’s generally reliable and what is not, they bear their vague definitions. For instance, what’s an “obsolete” source – and is it unreliable in its entirety because of later findings or theories? Asserting that something is a “questionable source” begs the question of “how so”? What factors make a source questionable? As Piotr notes, some editors have considered all newspapers and related popular news sources to be “questionable” if not altogether “unreliable”. Furthermore, even if generally true, suggestions like “Books written by widely published authors” are too broad, because any such source can be a reliable source for some uses and an unreliable source for others. (E.g., as I’ve pointed out before, Mein Kampf is a reliable source for some subjects, such as Nazi ideology, but unreliable for others, such as Jewish cultural values.) Rather than lists of generalized guidelines, perhaps what is needed is better specific guidance on how to determine what makes a source reliable or unreliable – for Misplaced Pages’s purposes – for a given usage. Askari Mark (Talk) 19:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I feel that the sections on examples were on balance more helpful than not, and should be restored. However I do agree that they can benefit from refinement. Rather than remove the lists entirely, I would prefer to see them restored, and then modified on a point-by-point basis to improve them. Of the two lists, I feel that the positive one listing examples of good sources is of greater importance to restore than the list of bad examples. Buddhipriya 00:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Go right ahead and improve the sections further. Eventually I think we will end up with a clear procedure allowing us to determine what is reliable and not, and an extensive list of specific examples at WP:RSEX. Certainly the current version, while more useful then the past, still has much room for improvement (for example, see my post below).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  08:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that having a short set of well-chosen examples here is important because keeping the policies clear and easy to understand is very important. Many editors (including me) are very frustrated by the very large and complex number of policies that we must consult. Something as critical as WP:RS should offer a sort of "one-stop shopping" where an editor can get a very clear picture of the policy and its application all in one place. The maze of detail WP:RSEX is important, but it is not designed to be an overview, and should not be confused with the primary article, which is WP:RS. A short list of example (not to exceed seven as an absolute maximum) makes things clear in ways that describing ideas does not. In the list of "good" sources it has "Books written by widely published authors" which someone else has objected to. I agree that it is a problem, because being widely published may be a sign of notability but it may not be a sign of reliability. This distinction comes up often on articles I edit, as there are some very well-known cranks whose WP:FRINGE ideas are widely published, and not worth the paper they are printed on. So I would agree some change is needed to that example. Buddhipriya 08:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I guess I agree with Piotr and Buddhipriya that these detailed sections are helpful, especially for less experienced editors who need this sort of direction. I've relied heavily on these sections in the past and wish they were still in the guideline. TimidGuy 19:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream websites published and maintained by notable media outlets

I was just composing a rely to a noticeboard question, and I discovered that the above definition is suboptimal. There are many 'Mainstream websites published and maintained by notable non-media outlets'. For example, governmental websites or various small organizations that are not very notable, nor media, but reliable nonetheless (professional associations, etc.). I'd suggest removing the the entire second part of this - instead, let's make sure there is consensus on what are 'mainstream websites'. Certainly, those 'published and maintained by notable media outlets' are reliable, but they don't fill the entire picture, I am afraid.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Examples section

There is no consensus for adding these sections. Please do not re-add. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:59, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

You are the only one who has objected so far to them; all other editors who commented seem to approve their inclusion. Please stop removing content many find useful, particularly w/out any reasoning or explanation, while others have provided plenty arguments for inclusion.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  07:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I strongly agree with the restoration of the examples and am puzzled by the statement about why they were removed. Can we have more discussion here regarding the issue before they are removed again? Buddhipriya 08:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, the section contains material that is plain wrong. Look at the confidential sources part, just as an example (under unacceptable sources). It's practically meaningless, and the only meaning that can be derived from it (viz. that we wouldn't have been allowed to use material from the W/Post when it was relying on Deep Throat) is simply false. SlimVirgin 11:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
As I and several other editors wrote above, there is room for improvement, but on average, the section is useful. I will restore it, minus the 'confidential' part. If you have objections to any other parts, please list them here, perhaps if we cut out all 'plain wrong' material that way we will end up with the most useful part (and I do agree the sections are a bit overweight at present). The 'Generally acceptable sources', with one exception noted above, seems quite uncontroversial. The 'Generally unacceptable sources' may contain more problems, (like overlap of 'questionable source' and 'Misplaced Pages article, or any article from an open wiki'), but with the removal of the 'confidential' part it seems quite reasonable. Do you think that statements like 'Books and journals published by universities and known publishing houses are generally reliable', for example, is 'plain wrong'? I'd think not.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the material because it would be better to improve the parts that need improvement rather than throw the baby out with the bath water. I am unwilling to see the statement 'Books and journals published by universities and known publishing houses are generally reliable' removed from this article, because it is an essential issue on most of the articles that I edit. Removal of this material from this place will make my editing life more difficult. Can we pick one statement at a time and either agree it is OK or improve the wording? For example, I just removed the specific statement "* Books written by widely published authors;" because of the reasons which I previously explained above. Does anyone feel that that specific point should be put back in? For the list of unacceptable sources, I have cut: "An obsolete source is one that is out-of-date, or has been officially withdrawn or deprecated by its author(s) or publisher. Editors of articles on fast-moving subjects such as law, science, or current events should ensure they use the latest sources." This seems to me to be the weakest of the examples. In the articles that I edit most often, which related to history of India and topics in Indian philosophy and religion, some of the academic sources are subject to intense debate, and establishing what is obsolete is not an easy task. So that that particular issue is very difficult to enforce on a practical basis. By removing these two items, one from the good and one from the bad, I am trying to get the two lists down to a minimal core which may be better able to reach consensus. If you do not agree with these specific items, please dialog about them so they may be improved. Buddhipriya 18:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Widely published indeed is not enough, Hitler's Main Kampf is quite widely published, but it's not very reliable (other then as a source on Nazism, but let's not go into details). On the other hand, I'd like to restore the obsolete sources claim, although possibly rewritten. It is a fact that a lot of even great quality academic work eventually gets obsolete. It is quite apparent in the 'natural sciences' (I do remember reading a papar that claimed that a very high percentage, approaching 90%, of works in medicine, is obsolete (wrong) after ~50 years...), and less so in the 'social sciences' - but even there we can see a process of replacement of old sources with new; for example, pre-20th century historians are much more biased and much less accurate then newer works, and should be avoided if a replacement exists.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the "obsolete sources", I completely agree that it is an important issue, and could live with restoration of a reworded version. This comes up very often on the articles I edit, where sources in Indology published over 100 years ago are regularly cited as authoritative, despite the fact that the field has progressed quite a bit since then. My concern over the wording relates to the fact that whether something is obsolete is a matter of opinion for some fields more so that for others. I can see that in the case of fields such as medicine, where very current research is well-documented and the subject of constant peer review, the obsolete criterion would be relatively easy to enforce. However in the cases of history or philosophy, intellectual debate may take place over a much longer period of time and be subject to controversy that is more difficult to document. Can you try to addresses these issues in a reworded version? The terminology of fields that are "fast-moving" does not do the job, because any academic field is subject to constant change. I am a strong supporter of using the most current possible sources in Indology, for example, because even if the subject is the ancient past, the impulse to publish, publish, publish, results in constant rethinking of old materials. Regarding the Main Kampf example, it is a good example of a book that is notable but not reliable with regard to matters of fact. The confusion between notable and reliable comes up constantly on religious articles. Buddhipriya 20:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I think a key division here is 'natural' vs 'social' sciences. It is relatively easy to judge what is obsolete in first, not so in the second. Thus, wording for the first should be easy (we could simply restore it and note it applies for natural sciences), for the second, we may need to think a little bit more.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Rather than try to state specific fields, which will lead to Wikilawyering, I would prefer to see a general statement of principles without mentioning specific fields. Since most fields that are subjects of academic study undergo constant refinement, use of current sources is preferred in all cases. The issue is when a work can be labeled as "obsolete" which is a matter of opinion. That is the issue that is very active on many of the articles which I edit. If you put in a policy which mentions the natural sciences, those who are not editing those articles may engage in Wikilawering to say that the currency issue does not apply to them. Can you take a stab at specific language again? Buddhipriya 21:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Please don't keep adding this. Much of it is simply incorrect. SlimVirgin 21:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Can you please say specifically what is incorrect? Your choice not to participate in dialog on this matter seems disruptive. Buddhipriya 21:45, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Almost all of it. This has been dealt with before; the section was edited down to be accurate, and there was almost nothing left of it, so it was removed. You're trying to reinvent the wheel. :-) SlimVirgin 21:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Then surely you can provide us with diffs to the old version that was removed and the corresponding discussion. I am also puzzled how statements like 'academic sources are reliable' are 'wrong'. Interested editors have been discussing some issues above, but puzzlingly, the consensus is that only few minor details need tweaking, not the entire section. Once again, you are welcome to post in detail why you disagree with specific points that the section is making, but please, don't remove it again claiming that 'it is all wrong' when there is no consensus for that. PS. Please stop moving RS noticeboard, you ignored both my questions at that page and yours talk after the move last time.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
It was months ago, and I don't have time to look for diffs right now, so you'll have to look around yourself. That some of the claims are correct doesn't mean that most are. SlimVirgin 22:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
It may have been months ago, but it is incumbent on you to repeat your arguments, rather than to claim a consensus continues to exist because it may have existed months ago. Hornplease 23:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) Here is the text of the most recent version of the "credible" examples. Can you please say specifically what is problematic with this text?

Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand:

  • Books and journals published by universities and known publishing houses;
  • Mainstream newspapers and magazines published by notable media outlets;
  • Mainstream websites published and maintained by notable media outlets;

Note that the reliability of a source depends on context; what is reliable in one topic may not be in another. A world-renowned mathematician may not be a reliable source on topics of biology.

It seems to me that all of this is clear, helpful, and necessary. Rather than bulk reverting all of the material, can you join in a discussion of specific parts with a view to improving them? Individual sections could be restored rather than continuing bulk reverts without dialog on the content. To try to break the cycle of bulk reverts, I have restored just that one section back to the article, since I have not seen any specific criticism of those statements. Buddhipriya 22:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Good move. Let's discuss the parts one by one - as SlimVirgin herself told us that a 'move to talk' is what she wants - and if there are no critical comments, we can move it back to the guideline. PS. Please note I would like to see a change of the point 3, see section above.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:36, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding point 3, I am unsure what text you are referring to "above". Can you please state here the suggested wording change? Buddhipriya 22:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Ilinked it above :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Your comment was "I'd suggest removing the the entire second part of this - instead, let's make sure there is consensus on what are 'mainstream websites'. Certainly, those 'published and maintained by notable media outlets' are reliable, but they don't fill the entire picture, I am afraid." As a general strategy, I would support removal of the dubious phrase, while keeping the first part. Simplification of the directive will help get us down to a simple and clear statement, if possible, while adding more detail may make it more difficult. In order to break the revert cycle, if we can reach agreement on a short but strong list, it may stick longer. Buddhipriya 22:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Great; could you do the appropriate edit?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I just tried the cut strategy, but it leaves us with just "Mainstream websites" which seems worse. Is Google a "mainstream website", for example, or prominent blog portals? So I guess my suggestion about cutting was too simplistic. Any other suggestions? Since you did agree that "Mainstream websites published and maintained by notable media outlets" is OK, but that it is incomplete, I would suggest leaving it in because the purpose of the example list is to get a short set of "no brainer" examples in place rather than to be a comprehensive list. Buddhipriya 23:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Hmm. I have one, but I am not happy with it. Mainstream websites published and maintained by reliable outlets. That, of course, is only skirting the issue, leaving us with the inevitable follow-up question... :( Btw, I spotted another issue in the first part of the section: 'known publishing houses' - known = notable = the problem you spotted earlier. I would suggest a change to reliable publishing houses, but... Similar, the world notable in the second part one may also be problematic. PS. Looking at it from a different angle, we are dealing with two issues here: a type of publication and a type of publisher. A tentative solution is to keep listing the types until we run into problematic one. For example, 'academic' publishers are as reliable as 'academic' publications, so that's easy. Media is more difficult.. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:07, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be good to step back and give other editors a chance to react to the edits we have made so far. My main concern was to break the bulk reversion war and get into a dialog mode regarding specific content points. Do any other editors want to chime in at this point regarding this? Buddhipriya 23:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

New title needed

The problem with this page is that people keep wanting to add descriptions of what a reliable source might be, but they have very little knowledge of the content policies, so they keep adding stuff that's wrong. Then other people come here and think it is the policy, and they leave the page misunderstanding what the sourcing policies say. That problem has led this page to be widely ignored by most good editors, which leads to even more confusion.

I think a solution might be to direct this page to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability/FAQ, or Misplaced Pages:Verifiability/Reliable sources, and to build up that page as just an FAQ, not as a guideline or a policy. Then people can basically add any opinion they want, with the understanding that it's a subpage of the policy and shouldn't be inconsistent with it (and if it is inconsistent, the policy applies).

Any thoughts? SlimVirgin 21:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

For content editors, as I wrote before, the issue of reliability (and detailed explanation of it) is crucial; while everyone agrees (and nobody has problems) with verifiability. This page needs to be developed, not curtailed.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
What do you see as the difference (for Misplaced Pages) between reliability and verifiability? And I'm not saying this page can't be built up. I'm saying it needs to be a subpage of the policy, just like NPOV/FAQ. SlimVirgin 22:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
It might be better to build the new page you propose, so everyone will understand exactly what you have in mind. I would not support dismantling this page until and if I see that what is to replace it is better. Tom Harrison 22:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
It would be this page, Tom. I'm suggesting it be redirected to a new title (e.g. V/FAQ) to make clear that it's a subpage of the policy, and not a policy itself, as in NPOV/FAQ. Therefore, there's nothing I can build to show you. It would be up to others to expand it (i.e. expand this page at the new location) if they wanted to. SlimVirgin 22:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, you want to move this page to another title, preserving all the content that is now here? Tom Harrison 22:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes. If it has a title that makes it clear it's a subpage of the policy, and if it's an FAQ and not a guideline, then people can add opinions about sources to their heart's content. SlimVirgin 22:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
If all the current content is preserved, I am not opposed to moving to an appropriately-titled subpage of V. There may be issues I have not considered, so I would want to take a few days and hear what people think. I do not think we should deprecate the guideline, or turn it into a noticeboard. Tom Harrison 22:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
If it's a guideline, then we have to be tighter about what can be allowed in it, and that's the problem with this page. Because it's a guideline, it doesn't get as much attention as the policies, and so lots of editors arrive here to add their own opinions, sometimes helpfully, often not. But the guideline status makes new editors think this is the main sourcing guideline/policy page, and they then wonder why it seems to contradict itself and other pages. That's why other editors have to swoop in here every so often and remove the worst parts of it.
This page started life as a POV fork of V, and has had these problems throughout its existence, including several good editors trying to remove the guideline tag. The situation does need to be sorted out because it's been going on for too long. It's fitting if it's returned to V as an FAQ subpage, and so long as it's not a guideline, people can feel free to add whatever opinion about sources they want to, and others can use the advice or ignore it as they see fit. SlimVirgin 22:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I do not support the idea of creating new pages, as the number of places where someone must look to get a clear answer is already too great. The proliferation of policies, FAQs, and guidelines makes it more difficult to work on Misplaced Pages for the average editor. The WP:RS may be supported by other detail, but anything essential to the core ideas, and examples which help the new reader to grasp them, should remain here. Buddhipriya 22:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Not a new page. This page; new title. SlimVirgin 22:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Simply. Nobody disputes that a source needs to be verifiable - or to be precise, I have yet to see a verifiability issue come up in a content dispute. However, what is a reliable source is a cause of many disputes. Therefore instead of tweaking the verifiability policy, which is already good enough, we should concentrate on provided the best possible answers to the question 'what is a reliable source', a question that plagues many content editors. PS. I think that this page is the best place for answering it; since it is widely known and the name is quite self-explanatory.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
You wrote: "Nobody disputes that a source needs to be verifiable ..." Can you say what you mean by that? SlimVirgin 22:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
You know WP:V quite well, I don't think I should quote it to you. I have yet to hear an argument about content where the issue of 'what is verifiability' or 'this is not verifiable' or 'this is against WP:V' comes up in a content discussion (although I'll admit it probably happens, just from my experience not as often as the 'is this reliable or not'. Of course, if you want to split hairs, the word 'reliable' (and derivatives), from WP:V policy, does come up quite often - but this only shows we need a guideline (at the very least) to describe it.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I do know V quite well, but I don't understand what you mean. Could you please say what you mean by "a source needs to be verifiable"? SlimVirgin 22:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Everybody agrees that "Articles should only contain material that has been published by reliable sources. Editors adding or restoring material that has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, or quotations, must provide a reliable published source, or the material may be removed." But a lot of people disagree about 'what is reliable' and 'what is not'. Is this sufficiently clear?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that is clear. But it doesn't say anything about "a source needs to be verifiable." You said everyone agrees with it, but I can't even work out what it means. Please explain. SlimVirgin 22:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Let's try it that way: you try to explain to me why a content editor might have problems with that policy. I can give you plenty of examples why content editors can and have problems with too vague wordings of WP:RS. If you cannot do the same for WP:V, then its proof that content editors don't have (on average) problems with it.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand your question.
You made a very strong statement above, which you now won't explain. You wrote: "Nobody disputes that a source needs to be verifiable ..." But it's a meaningless sentence. And herein lies the problem. The profileration of sourcing policies and the unclear use of language causes editors not to have a clue. They then turn up and try to edit those pages, causing further deterioration. That is why I'm requesting that we at least move this to a new title (V/FAQ) or similar, so the page falls under the policy.
To get back to how this started, there is no difference between the concepts of reliability and verifiability as we use the terms on Misplaced Pages. Material has to be referenced to reliable sources, period. That's what V and RS are both about, and there's no need to have both, unless one distinguishes itself by being an FAQ. SlimVirgin 23:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Good question, why do we need both? RS was there in support of V, and was never policy. Let's augment V with an FAQ about reliable sources and redirect RS to V. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Jossi, do you have an opinion as to whether the FAQ should have the guideline tag on it? I'm inclined to think not, so that it remains an advice page only. That means people can be free to add their own opinions, with the understanding that, in any content dispute, the policy holds sway. SlimVirgin 23:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I would start by having the FAQ without any status. Then in a month or so, we can look at it again and decide if it is stable enough to promote, if at all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Before you do any of that, I am assuming you will advertise your plan on appopriate fora and wait for a consensus? Which, the last time I checked, was not reached. Instead of discussing a bureaucratic technicality of correct name for this page, a much more important issue - of clarifying what is reliable - should be addressed.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think "reliable" will ever be clarified, because it boils down to editorial judgment and depends heavily on context. WP:V has offered some rules of thumb. The reason for wanting to move this page to V/FAQ is that these rules of thumb could be expanded without people thinking (as they do here) that it's a separate guideline. SlimVirgin 23:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

<<< (oudent) There is no need for consensus to start a WP:V/FAQ, where frequently asked questions about WP:V can be answered. The reliability of sources belongs to WP:V as it is the policy that discusses them. See WP:V#Sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, you can start such a page, or create a verifiability noticeboard. Keep in mind, however, that content forking should be avoided with policies, too; and we don't need two pages on the same issue. Already enough effort has been wasted on WP:ATT, much of which is now slowly being forgotten and gather dust. It has been shown since a long time that reliablity needs a dedicated page, thus why WP:V/FAQ answering other questions may be a good idea, reliability questions should be addressed here, and other pages should only summarize the consensus reached here, not suggest some new, possibly contradictory, info.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  11:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
That's a very sensible beginning, though proliferating pages is not the answer. And as for 'reliable' never being clarified, some of us may choose to disagree with that assumption. And consensus should be seen to emerge before, if ever, this page loses guideline status.Hornplease 23:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, I would support a move, probably to the FAQ option. I tend to agree that people aren't fully understanding what the policies are. I've lost count of the number of people who don't realise that information must reflect the source referenced. That was why I thought WP:ATT was so vital. Steve block Talk 13:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Biographical material about living people

Is this change objectionable for some reason? If not, why was it reverted over? Tom Harrison 14:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Many changes were recently reverted, without any explanation on talk. This is indeed a worrying development in policy/guideline discussion :( -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLP applies to all materials about living persons and not only on specific articles, as explained in the policy itself. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Certainly it does, which is why I changed and in biographies of living people to and material about living people. Why did you revert that change I made? Tom Harrison 15:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The change is definitely appropriate, to reflect what BLP applies to - not just biographical articles but any material. --Aude (talk) 15:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I have no problems with the re-write, although I do not think it is necessary. The revert was done on the context of reverting to the stable version before the last round of edits. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
You seemed to think it was necessary just above, when you told me how blp works, and gave me a link to the policy. In the future I hope you will read my edits, assume I have some idea what the hell I'm doing, and don't revert my changes if you don't object to them. Tom Harrison 15:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Lead changes

Old lead:

Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources. This page is a guideline, not a policy, and is mandatory only insofar as it repeats material from policy pages. The relevant policies on sources are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and Misplaced Pages:No original research.

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability says that any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a source, as do quotations, and the responsibility for finding a source lies with the person who adds or restores the material. Unsourced or poorly sourced edits may be challenged and removed at any time. Sometimes it is better to have no information than to have information without a source.

See Misplaced Pages:Verifiability/Noticeboard for queries about the reliability of particular sources; see Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability for queries about the policy.

I think the new lead, which is shorter, has better (non-redirect) links and doesn't repeat parts of WP:V nor of Template:Guideline is better:

Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources. This page explains what sources are considered reliable.

Note that this page is a guideline, not a policy; the relevant policies on sources are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No original research.

See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for queries about the reliability of specific sources; see Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources for queries about the guideline; see Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages talk:No original research for discussion of relevant policies.

Any comments?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This page explains what sources are considered reliable I do not think this page does that, Piotrus. The only piece of information that is not already available in policy pages is the section about "extraordinary claims", that IMO needs to be moved to WP:V. The rest is wikilinks to existing policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
In other words, you are saying that "Reliable sources" page does not address the issue of reliability? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest that you put your excellent copyediting skills at work at WP:V/FAQ, where they will be put at better use... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Please note that we already have substantial material in policy pages about the reliability of sources:

...making this page redundant. Let's work instead on the FAQ for V were we can address specific questions. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

No, that only makes the editors confused which page to check; that material should be moved here.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree.Hornplease 23:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
How can you say that? V, NOR and BLP are official policy of Misplaced Pages. This page is a guideline. A guideline can only provide guidance on existing policies, not create new ones. The aspects of reliability of sources are already described in these policy pages, this being only a convenient place to link to these aspects in existing policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I think I misunderstood Piotr's proposal. I was objecting to the creation of a FAQ subpage of V instantly without a consensus here about what it would contain. I hope that makes my position clearer. I do not think that we should start by assuming that RS is merely a series of links. If nothing else, that would seem to contradict an eventual goal of a subpage of V.Hornplease 06:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
What is confusing, is that editors refer to WP:RS as if it was a policy when actually it is not. The policies that discuss sources and their reliability are V, NOR, NPOV and BLP, as explained in the lead: This page is a guideline, not a policy, and is mandatory only insofar as it repeats material from policy pages. The relevant policies on sources are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and Misplaced Pages:No original research. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
WP:RS is referred to in many places throughout Misplaced Pages, so it's understandable that people believe it carries some weight. (See WP:GACR, WP:FACR, even WP:NOR.) What needs to be done is to go through all these places and replace the references to WP:RS with WP:V given that (a) WP:RS isn't policy and (b) over the past few months WP:RS has been essentially gutted of any meaningful content. Raymond Arritt 02:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Even in the current form, RS tells the editors more about reliablity then V. V, for content editors, is mostly useless, it is more of a peace of 'Wiki philosophy'. RS is extremly needed, and whether it is explained here or moved to V FAQ, explanation of 'what is reliable' is what will be constantly referred to in content discussions (hence the noticeboard issue - go ahead and create a WP:V noticeboard and see if anybody ever uses it...).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  10:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The main issue, I believe, is that people refer to RS without the necessary context (i.e. V, NOR, NPOV, BLP, etc.). The reliability of sources is not an aspect that stands alone: sources must be evaluated in the necessary context, always. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Of course, but this only means we need a more detailed explanation on this page - something that both the 'unreliable and reliable section', and WP:RSEX, are trying to do. Splitting the reliability issue among a few policies is a worse solution then having a dedicated page for its discussion. Btw, my main problem with WP:V/FAQ is that /FAQs and generally /slashed subpages are not common on Misplaced Pages.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that the key problem is that most editors are not experts in Misplaced Pages policy and lack context for many things. For that reason, some redundancy between guidance articles is a good thing, because it increases the chance that editors will see the key ideas. So long as the redundant material is consistent across multiple uses, I see no problem with it. I view the proliferation of policies, guidelines, and FAQs on Misplaced Pages as a serious problem. Buddhipriya 15:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

removed at any time

I propose the removal of "material with no sources or unreliable sources may be removed at any time" from the lede. This is a part of WP:V. (I'm not 100% sure it commands unqualified agreement either, considering the way it has been used with what some people may think excessive zeal.) I think simply referring to WP:V will prevent possible duplicate argument. DGG (talk) 02:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I replaced that sentence with the wording used in the policy page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I think that's better 02:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Grey Area of WP:RS

Often times, we see notable media publications quoting questionable, non-WP:RS sources. What are people's thoughts on the usage of these articles in WP articles? To make matters confusing, often times, I find people involved with the non-WP:RS sources also writing articles on the same topic in said media publications. Apologies if this is confusing to read Kkm5848 06:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

We tried to address the issue of notable media publications, but the relevant section keeps being removed from the article. Please see recent threads above; the proposed version declares 'notable media publications' (more or less) reliable.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  11:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
See Misplaced Pages:Fact laundering and related ArbCom case ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
A very interesting statement, one that should certainly make it to this guideline (or whatever rewritten form it takes in the future).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
when a reliable publication uses an inadequate source, they are presumed to do so on the basis of their professional judgment and reputation. Thus we can quote a NYT statement based on an unidentified informant--they stake their reputation on the accuracy. This is only a presumption, and can of course be countered by other evidence. A peer-reviewed article in a journal can be assumed correct, but the strength of the assumption depends on the reputation of the journal, and for even the best journals, it can be upset by evidence from elsewhere. DGG (talk) 01:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
What type of facts / sources are required to upset the fact laundering that occurs? I have sometimes found that going to the original sources reveals alot of things that are common sense as unsubstantiatable...but do we need a secondary wp:rs sources to counter-wait the first? Kkm5848 08:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Television episodes

What is considered a reliable source for the plot of a television episode? The reason I ask is that there is a discussion going on at Talk:The_Sarah_Connor_Chronicles#Leak as to whether a plot description based on a viewing of a leaked episode is appropriate for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. In the list of featured televsion articles at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Television/How_to_write_an_episode_article many do not site any references at all for the plot description. One cites the DVD reelase and a couple cite summaries elsewhere on the net. Citing a DVD releases makes some sense, but what is the recommended practice for shows without haven't been released on DVD yet? I can see that a leaked episode could easily be considered a non-reliable source, however in this particular case, the article already includes a link to a review that appears to predate the leak and describes a plot identical to the leaked episode, thus providing an independent source.

I'm interested in peoples opinions on the general question of how to cite for TV episode plots, and also on the question of whether it is okay to describe details of prebroadcast or leaked shows. BigBadaboom0 06:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The episode itself is not verifiable till it becomes legitimately available. So no, you can't cite it. Matthew 07:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Unless you have another source for it ofcourse. // Liftarn
  • I think watching a show and writing a plot summary about it constitutes as interpretation of a primary source, and thus becomes original research. I don't think any plot summary should be added unless its referenced from a secondary source. Corpx 08:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages as an unreliable source

In Misplaced Pages:Researching with Misplaced Pages we read:

In all academic institutions, Misplaced Pages is unacceptable as a major source for a research paper.

Also in Misplaced Pages:Citing Misplaced Pages we have:

For many purposes, but particularly in academia, Misplaced Pages may not be considered an acceptable source.

I think it should also be reflected on this guidline. One way is to confine to adding a link to the above two giudelines. Another way (which I prefer) is to also add a statement which has the same message in it.

I have added a section to this giudeline, here. If you think it is not appropriate (or not enough) I'd be glad to have your comments. hujiTALK 09:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is more reliable than some newspapers that we sometimes cite. But the point of attributing accessable (published) reliable sources is to a minor degree to provide further information, which we also do with internal linking which would not make sense if it was to a page with unreliable data. But mostly it to enhance credibility which can not be done by citing ourselves: "See here is further evidence that I am right, I agree with myself." WAS 4.250 11:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) See WP:OR#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources -- Boracay Bill 11:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

additionally, it would seem perfectly legitimate for a summary article in WP to rely on the sourcing of the detail articles--I have sometimes seen this challenged, though I cannot think why (assumingthe detail articles are themselves adequately sourced). It might be good to say something about this--the routine bio facts in the principle article about someone should be sufficient for mention of them in other articles. DGG (talk) 01:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
In principle this should be OK, but care has to be taken that the two articles do not drift out of sync so that we end up with unreferenced statements. Someone may edit the detail article without realizing that other articles depend on it for references. I'd tend to err on the side of duplication. This is especially a concern when WP:BLP issues are at stake. Raymond Arritt 02:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Reasonable indeed given the nature of Wiki, though as a matter of style, I tend to leave introductory summary paragraphs to longer cited sections, or introductory statements linking to other sourced articles, footnote-free unless specifically asked to provide a citation. Sometimes it seems to be a bit of an overkill leading to unnecessary redundancy, but after interacting with other editors who too freely place {{fact}} tags to statements that may be referenced in the very next paragraph, I try to make it a habit as often as reasonably possible. In the end, it is probably better to err on the side of duplication than to have legitimate material removed. Don't know how this should reflect on the guideline though. — Zerida 06:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with WAS 4.250's statement — Misplaced Pages is less reliable than any newspaper. It cannot be reliable, because it is subject to change at any moment. It is often more accurate than some reliable sources. It's important not to confuse the two. Reliable sources do not guarantee accuracy, but are merely our best substitute for for something that cannot be achieved in human-collected and -reported information. And it largely works, too. Ironically, what makes Misplaced Pages so useful to readers is its surprising amount of accuracy for such an unreliable publication. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, it all depends on reliable for what purpose. The current version can not be relied on to not change, but any specific dated version can be relied on to not change. And wikipedia can be relied on in general to be accurate as you just said. As noted below, even court documents can be inaccurate. WAS 4.250 14:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. For the record, RS had a statement about Misplaced Pages and wikis in general being unreliable, but it was removed together with other clarifications - see my comment in the section below.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  10:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Australia's government used the Essjay case as evidence in arguing that "freely edited web sites such as Misplaced Pages (and by extension the linked web site "Armeniapedia"" are unreliable, saying :

It is also noted that in support of the submissions concerning the unreliability of the web site, reference was made to a newspaper article critical of the parent site namely Misplaced Pages. The article apparently appeared in The Age newspaper on 8 March 2007 under the title, "Misplaced Pages ‘expert’ admits: I made it up". The article involved a person purportedly claiming to be an editor of Misplaced Pages and who had been incorrectly referred to as a "professor of religion with a PhD in theology and a degree in cannon law" serving his "second term as chair of the mediation committee" which purportedly rules on disputes over information posted on the web site. The article reveals that the person holds no advanced degrees and in fact is a 24 year old from Kentucky. It was submitted this demonstrates the unreliability of the material.(source : http://www.austlii.edu.au//cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/cases/cth/FMCA/2007/975.html?query=Refugee%20Review%20Tribunal )

The court itself make the mistake of saying Armeniapedia was "a branch of Misplaced Pages". Inaccuracies can be found in even the best of sources! WAS 4.250 14:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Jeff Q probably just isn't aware of how often newspaper are wrong - the Pullitzer Prize winning journalist Dave Barry summed up the problem nicely, who noted the problem with American newspapers is that while you can be fairly sure what you're reading is false, you really can't rely on it - unless it's a weather forecast, economic outlook or horoscopes, all of which are consistantly false. Hell, where I work the usual joke is that anything printed in Nature must be wrong ... although the occasional correct article probably does slip through. WilyD 14:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This, I believe, is more of a WP:V discussion: we don't care about right or wrong (truth or untruth). We care about verifiability. Newspapers are sometimes wrong, sometimes correct. So are wikis. Most newspapers, however, are written by pros, not amateurs, and have some editorial checking.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Outdated scientific research superseded by by more recent research

Didn't this guideline previously contain advice about later studies superseding earlier research? Can't seem to find that now in the policies and guidelines. I thought it was useful. TimidGuy 17:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It did, but some users decided there is no consensus to include such examples, although they had not provided detailed rationale. Please see #Generally acceptable and unacceptable sources and #Examples section. Feel free to comment there or restore the points you liked. See also WP:RSEX.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks much, Piotr. That explains why I couldn't find it. Of course, it's a bit disorienting to be familiar with the guidelines, to reference them in debates, and then get into another debate, only to return and find that the guideline has changed. : ) But I guess that's the nature of Misplaced Pages. I'll add a note to the discussion you pointed to. TimidGuy 19:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

As a frequent editor of WP:RSN I can attest that having explain something on Day A using part of the guideline that is disputed on Day B is not a pleasant experience :( I look forward to reading your other comments.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Forums

There's a section in the Randall Flagg article detailing the fans' controversy over his appearence in his last book. Would in this case topics and opinions from thedarktower.net count as a source?--CyberGhostface 01:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Fora are not reliable sources in themselves. You may be able to report what was written on a forum, as you would report what someone said in an interview, but you should not use that to enforce a point of view or verify a claim. Adrian M. H. 17:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Conference proceedings

Trawick, Prof. Margaret (1999), "Lessons from Kokkodaicholai", Proceedings of Tamil Nationhood & Search for Peace in Sri Lanka, Carleton University, pp. 1–10

Does using this violate WP:RS ? This is Professor Trawicks home page. This has been disputed in the Prawn farm massacre article. Thanks Taprobanus 17:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Moved it here per requestTaprobanus 21:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Citing the content of television and radio factual programmes

I cannot find any information or prior discussion that outlines whether it is generally appropriate to cite the content of television and/or radio documentaries and other factual programming. Does the transient nature of the source make the claims unverifiable once the programme is no longer being broadcast? Does this actually matter? I am thinking about this preemptively in anticipation of encountering references such as this (I'm sure they are used on occasions), and I really would like to see some advice about this incorporated into either this guideline, WP:V, or an essay. Even the historical Attribution/FAQ neglected to cover it. Adrian M. H. 22:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Technically, these are primary sources and can be used stuff. However, there should not be any kind of interpretations drawn from this. Corpx 00:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
It has to be possible for someone to "look it up". The broadcast must be recorded and available someplace reliable or it can't count as a verifiable claim. WAS 4.250 16:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
So such a source could be described as unverifiable in the event of a content dispute. That confirms what I suspected. With the ATT FAQ being lost amid the debris of ATT itself, where best would such a piece of information by placed? Is there an RS FAQ? Adrian M. H. 16:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
WP:V and/or WP:NOR should have what you want. WAS 4.250 17:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
First, most such programs have published transcripts. Second, almost all have archived content. It either of them is available to the public there are sources. sources do not have to be in writing. The content of WP includes images as well as text, and the sources likewise. But, as Corpx says, in general they are primary sources and can be cited for the content of what they say. But programs prepared by recognized authorities and commentators have authority as secondary sources. For example, the various BBC and discovery channel transcripts and summaries have the same authority as any printed magazine. DGG (talk) 04:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I see. If a dispute arises in which an editor had cited the programme itself, and another editor requests that a transcript be used instead, what is the likelihood of this being possible. I ask because I was not aware that such transcripts were ever publicly available. This is all hypothetical, but I do a lot of work with 3O and advising new editors, so this would be useful. Adrian M. H. 15:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if we have ever dealt with this... so I don't know how likely approval for such a request would be. Personally, I think it would depend on the program and how available it is ... TV programs are usually recorded and put up for sale... For example, the History Channel regularly makes their programs available (for purcase) on DVD. Thus, such a TV program itself and what is said in it is verifiable, and "Published" (ie produced) by a reputable company. Radio broadcasts, however, are not often recorded for sale... instead they are transcribed, and the transcript is made available.
In most cases, a citation to a TV program is fine. However, if the underlying statement being cited is contentious, and especially if it is challenged, I think it might appropriate for the challenger to request a quote from the transcript. Also, it might be appropriate to request that information cited to a radio or TV show be attributed to the producers of the program as statements of opinion as opposed to statements of fact. Blueboar 16:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Just reverted an attempted expansion of who can publish a reliable source

I just reverted the following insertion by User:DieWeisseRose:

However, a source may be reliable outside her/his primary field if s/he has gained expertise through substantial work in that area.

This passage is patently ridiculous on its face. There are many examples in the history of science of sources gaining "expertise" out of their primary fields in other areas and making complete fools of themselves in the process. Should we cite physicist Linus Pauling as an authoritative expert on vitamins? Or cite physicist William Shockley as an expert on eugenics? Or cite Vannevar Bush as an expert on the value of the social sciences? I think not. --Coolcaesar 06:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

This really depends on the fields of study we are talking about and the reputation of the source in their "side" field. For example, a person's primary field of work may be in agriculture (they may be a farmer)... but they could also be considered an amature expert on steem locomotives, or of the tactics of Robert E. Lea, or a host of other things. Reliability does not always equate to having a degree... it can be achieved through building a reputation for good, accurate, work.
I do agree with your deletion... the insertion was a bit too vague... but we do need something that allows for amature expertise where appropriate. Blueboar 11:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
There are also way too many self-proclaimed "experts" in certain fields who are not really experts. Corpx 15:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The reverted edit read, in full: "The reliability of a source depends on subject matter context, for example, a world-renowned mathematician may not necessarily be a reliable source about biology. However, a source may be reliable outside her/his primary field if s/he has gained expertise through substantial work in that area."

The current language is too restrictive. For example, Noam Chomsky was trained as a linguist and that is what he teaches at MIT but he is also an accomplished speaker and writer on politics and international affairs. His work in these areas has been widely published in both the scholarly--e.g. "Simple Truths, Hard Problems." Philosophy. January, 2005--and popular press. As currently written, this guideline would suggest that Chomksy is not a reliable source for articles on politics and international affairs merely because he is a linguist. This is a ridiculous result which should not stand. Finally, my revision does not open the door to any and every source who claims expertise in a particular field it merely allows that some people may acquire expertise outside their primary fields--expertise that would qualify them as a reliable source. This is patently true. --DieWeisseRose 04:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It's hardly a ridiculous result, and don't try to change policy so you can cite your favorite author in an area in which he has no expertise, regardless of his vocal activism. Jayjg 18:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, please remember to assume good faith. Chomsky was just an example and I have not anywhere tried to cite him or anyone else "in an area in which he has no expertise". --DieWeisseRose 21:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
yes, but the proposed version was too broad. It is not experience alone which does it. It's acceptance as an authority. DGG (talk) 04:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
My statement spoke only to how expertise may be acquired. Although I didn't use the word "experience" I agree that experience is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for a source ot be reliable in a particular field. --DieWeisseRose 21:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Suggested rewording: "The reliability of a source depends on subject matter context, for example, a world-renowned mathematician may not necessarily be a reliable source about biology. However, a source may be reliable outside her/his primary field if s/he has become recognized as having expertise in that area."
I think this is more along the lines of consensus. Recognition of the expertise of the source is the key. Blueboar 12:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I think your rewording is an improvement. Thanks. --DieWeisseRose 21:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The whole thing is nonsense. An expert in one field doesn't become an expert in another simply by being an activist. These kinds of attempts to create new policy so as to win edit conflicts are tiresome. Jayjg 18:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

No one but you, Jayjg, has suggested that one becomes an expert "simply by being an activist." Let us please stick to the arguments people are actually making, instead of knocking down arguments that no one is making. --DieWeisseRose 22:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
"gained expertise through substantial work in that area" - Who determines if the work is substantial? I really dont think we need to open this door. Corpx 18:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Agree completely with Corpx. This is a subjective determination, as any source that someone might want to include under this change will obviously have been active in the subject matter. Tewfik 18:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

While there have been a few world-famous experts in one field who have used their celebrity status to "take on the establishment" in another field and (very occasionally) been made to look complete idiots, we'd be doing the project a grave dis-service to ignore these academic giants and the contributions they make. The statement "The reliability of a source depends on subject matter context, for example, a world-renowned mathematician may not necessarily be a reliable source about biology. However, a source may be reliable outside her/his primary field if s/he has gained expertise through substantial work in that area." covers the case and belongs in this Content Guideline. It's not the likes of Noam Chomsky, a widely published author and speaker who are (ever?) a problem, but propagandists such as Shmuel Katz with just one respected book to their name. PalestineRemembered 20:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


The rule should be read to understand that books written with due regard for academic rules of evidence, by people with an academic background, cannot be disputed as sources. It does not matter what discipline they hail from, since the question is, are they dedicated to the rules of evidence acceptable by the academic world. There is such a thing as interdisciplinary work, and all such interdisciplinary work would be unquotable if the rule was interpreted as some have tried to do in objecting to Chomsky et al. Wiki deals in reliable (i.e. the work of people trained to analyse evidence scrupulously) sources, their verifiability. It is not concerned with the truth of what those sources say. Any other reading just opens the floodgates to pernickety and pretextual attempts to disqualify information this or that poster dislikes, and make serious contributors to this encyclopedia lose valuable time in making it a worthwhile source by actually collaborating on building up articles, by having them frig about with inane disputes. I will now comment on the general issue.

'There are many examples in the history of science of sources gaining "expertise" out of their primary fields in other areas and making complete fools of themselves in the process'
So what? There are many examples in the history of science of qualified scientists making fools of themselves within their own discipline (Pons-Fleischmann, Cyril Burt,Lysenko, etc.etc.)
(1)Charles Darwin fumbled his first degree in Edinburgh and withdrew from medicine, and was sent to study theology at Cambridge, where he just got by for his degree in math, physics and theology. He was an amateur student of nature through those years, but never qualified for the science that would, later, make his career and his revolutionary theory. Same as Alfred R.Wallace who thought out the same theory contemporaneously. His major qualification was surveying and map-making.
(2) Aristotle trained as a philosopher, after his primary education as a physician, and wrote on rhetoric and everything else. All of his works are classics in their field
(3) Ernest Gellner trained as an anthropologist-sociologist, and wrote a powerful, quoted critique of psychoanalysis.
(4) Richard Rorty was a philosopher who wrote brilliant essays on Nabokov, Proust. All professional literary scholars read them and cite them with informed interest.
(5) A.E. Housman wrote poetry while being primarily one of the greatest classical philologists in history (though he was failed in the subject in his finals). The poetry is accepted by all anthologists as a beautifully crafted lyric voice.
(6) Sir Joseph Needham, writer and editor of the massive encyclopedia 'Science and Civilization in China' qualified as a biochemist, and was only tutored privately in classical Chinese. All sinologists ignore the fact he was primarily a biochemist, and recognize his preeminence as an historian (another discipline) of Chinese sciences and thought patterns.
(7) Karl Popper trained as a carpenter before qualifying in philosophy, and then aside from the 'Logic of Scientific Discovery' wrote extensively on 'Historicism' and History .
(8)Schliemann was a wealthy businessman who had no training in archeology or academic qualifications in classical languages. His discovery of 'Troy' and excavations in Mycenae radically revised scholarly interpretations on prehistoric Greece, and he is numbered amongst those who have made invaluable contributions to the history of Greece.
(9) Robert Bittlestone, a management consultant, turned amateur archeologist, has been recognized by eminent scholars like James Diggle for his epochal revision of the age-old identification of Odysseus's home with present-day Ithaca, which he identified as Paliki off Kephallonia. No one in the field worries about his being a businessman. He did the required background studied, employed consultants, financed the work, and discovered fascinating facts. He will be accredited for his contribution to the crux for generations by all classical scholars.
(10) All three founding anglophone scholars of Japanology, Basil Hall Chamberlain, Ernest Satow, and William George Aston, not to speak of George Bailey Sansom, were, before coming to Japan, bankers, diplomats,English teachers,classicists etc., who had no prior training in Oriental languages, or historical writing. They all became historians and philologists of Japan without the requisite academic degrees.
(11)William Empson did a double in mathematics and English at Cambridge, but wrote his seminal book on 'Seven Types of Ambiguity' as an undergraduate, before he got his BA, and never got a MA and was expelled from the University for using condoms in his college rooms. The failure to qualify properly never stopped him from getting a professorship later in life, or being recognized as the greatest literary critic of his age.
(12) Bertrand Russell qualified as a mathematician but his first work, one of many to come on history, society and ethics, was on German Social Democracy, a book which in 1896 got him a post as lecturer at the London School of Economics. He had no formal qualifications in history, politics or sociology. That book is still regarde by historians as a useful historian source.
(13) Leonardo da Vinci's only professional training was with Verrocchio as a painter. Historians of engineering and science consider him one of the most remarkable minds in the history of those latter two fields.
(14) Claude Lévi-Strauss was qualified in law and philosophy. His career in anthropology and his fieldwork were done without formal training in the discipline.
(15) Jacques Berque, one of the finest French Arabists of the last century, was primarily a civil servant and agronomist, and despite lack of formal qualifications in either Arabic or ethnography, got a chair at the Sorbonne.
(16) James Lovelock, the formulator of the ecological theory known as the Gaia hypothesis. His only qualification is a medical degree. His theories are taken seriously by paleogeologists and theorists.
(17) Uri Milstein, correct me if I err, qualified in political science, economics and philosophy, but was employed by the IDF as a military historian. He's quoted all over wiki articles on Palestine.
(18) Meron Benvenisti qualified in political sciences, and spent a good part of his middle career as an administrator. That doesn't stop historians from using his Sacred Landscape: The Buried History of the Holy Land since 1948
(19) One of the most important foundational studies for Holocaust history in the post-war period, Gerald Reitlinger's Die Endlösung - Hitlers Versuch der Ausrottung der Juden Europas (Eng.The Final Solution, 1953) was written by a British archeologist.
(20)Raul Hilberg, the greatest authority on the history and mechanisms of the Holocaust, trained in law and political science, not in the faculty of history.
These people got recognition as authorities in fields they had no formal qualification in, because of the quality of their contributions (technically as amateurs or outsiders to a professional discipline) to those fields. In general this whole absurd, maliciously motivated debate (malicious because wikipedia articles are overwhelmingly sourced to Internet sources, newspapers, etc., written not by specialized academics or field professionals.A larger number of people participating democratically in these pages show a poor understanding of what careful historian composition requires. Many do not seem to read books but skim their contributions off net sources, which contain 0.000001 of the omne scibile in libraries.)
Chomsky qualified both in linguistics and philosophy. But his thesis was on the Morphophonemics of Hebrew. As both a Jew and specialist in the Hebrew language, from early in his career he, like Milstein, wrote historical studies which reveal a very close and precise knowledge of primary and secondary sources in Hebrew and other languages. His approach is informed by recognizable criteria for academic research. Chomsky has many works, meticulously sourced, on the Middle East. His serious critics do not waste time challenging his right, to comment on Arab-Israeli relations and history because his primary academic qualification was in linguistics. They challenge his interpretations of the evidence he has marshalled. I.e., they do what all historians do to each others work in peer review.
Most articles in Misplaced Pages on Arab-Palestinian relations suffer from what historians (the phrase goes back to Thucydides) call 'preponderance of power'. The majority of those who read, edit and write on the issue in here are extremely attentive to Israel's image, and use the rules to contest anything that can possibly read as casting a negative light on what is a political image in the world's imagination. (2) While large numbers of Israelis and West Bank squatters contribute, there are relatively few contributions from Palestinians, many of whom don't perhaps even know they are being written about (3) Israel's various versions of what happened are predominantly in Hebrew and English sources. Little of what happened, as experienced by Palestinians, got into archives. (Indeed, Pappe has documented, I believe, the way military victories in 48,67 led to academics and authorities ransacking Palestinian archives. The practice hasn't stopped. Over the years, incursions against suspected terrorist enclaves have on occasion led to 'incidental' destruction of important muncipal archives in various towns). The Palestinian story so far, predominantly, and the point is one of relevant comparison by volume, is one of oral narrative, or in Arabic sources little known even to historians. As insiders, these contested scholars trouble many because they never lose sight of this simple fact: overwhelmingly the English language narrative of 1948-2007 comes from sources, professional and otherwise, hailing from the country that won successive wars, and wrote the master narrative. The obsessively close scholarship they use holds this fact in mind. - We are discussing Israeli-English issues about a third party, that is massively under-represented.
That Palestinian narrative of events is reconstructed mainly through Hebrew and English sources. No historian thinks this anything but a highly partial and parlous procedure. Due weight must be given, in each evaluation of sources, to what is lacking from the unheard voices of the vanquished. Most modern historical writing does this. Why did Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago make such a huge impact- partially because for the first time, history no longer relied on partial accounts and selective Soviet uses of archives, mostly kept under lock and key, but could harvest the massive and minutely recalled reconstruction of the Gulags by the victims. The work of Chomsky, Finkelstein, Shahak, Mezvinzky, are frequently challenged on an extremely pedantic and forced reading of the technical rules, though it is they who endeavour to balance the natural bias in the world's understanding of the tragedy visited on the Palestinians.

p.s.I have yet to see the slightest evidence that those who cite the putative rule about reliable sourcing against Chomsky and co., have the faintest familiarity with his works. If they did, they wouldn't underwrite attempts to censor him here. Nishidani 12:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well said, Nishidani. --DieWeisseRose 00:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

well said, but i do want to point out that 1/many of the examples listed were early figures at a time where there was no really targeted professional training (eg daVinci 2/what establish reputation is not the first degree but the equiv of the thesis, the "master-piece" in the old sense. Darwin established that with Voyage and the book on Barnacles. 3/ Some of the 19th century amateurs listed would not really be accepted as authorities today. Obviously the first European Japanologists must have been amateurs. 4/ some of them relied much on specialist assistants or collaborators, such as Needham. 5/ the difference between some fields like political science & history is very small. 6/ geniuses are exceptions. 7/ Lysenko is not an example of a qualified anything.

and, more important, when people write about controversial politics, academic expertise is not the deciding factor.

incidentally, most of the israeli patriots (or chauvinists, whichever you prefer) around here are convinced that the anti-israelis are dominant at WP and they they are a small and misunderstood minority here. The evolutionists too think they are in a holding battle against the hoards of conservative christians, and vice-versa.
My personal viewpoint is that those who seek to exclude views from expression, here or anywhere else, are likely to have the wrong of it. I take NPOV seriously, and think that the provision for exclusion of very small minority viewpoints is much overused, though in the perfect good faith that the views one thinks hideously wrong are unimportant. DGG (talk) 06:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
First let me clear up 'anti-Israelis'(which sounds like 'anti-semite'.What is under discussion is not the existence of Israel or of sentiments expressive of a dislike of Israelis. It is about how to deal with Israel, a country and political unit, and its relations with the Arab world and especially Occupied Palestine. There is nothing personal about this. I personally am 'pro-Palestinian' (see below) but this entails nothing about being 'anti-Israeli' a term which is stupid and implies racism if not a restricted, politically delimited, anti-semitism, involving also Israeli Arabs).
DGG (Apropos 1/2) I cited not 'many' but two premodern examples of 20. Most of the examples (I could cite another 50) are of the modern period. I made my remarks with Arnold Toynbee's 'A Study of History in Mind', vol.1 in mind, in that long passage where he discusses the negative consequences of the academic professionalism of certain areas of the humanities. If you qualify as a Sinologist, technically nowadays, it does not mean you can talk with authority on China. For your qualification will be in an abstruse subject like 'Education under the Ming', 'The phonology of Jurchen loan-words in Middle Chinese', 'Ch'an soteriological texts in early Qing China' etc., a specialisation so intense it often means that the expert in question can tell you little original or reliable about anything outside his or her field of formal competence. If we drive this rule to its logical conclusion, only those with academic qualifications on any specific issue in Arab-Israeli relations 1948 onwards can be cited. So Benny Morris's books would not be citable on Egyptian foreign policy under Nasser, nor Shlaim on demographics, nor Lustik on rabbinical ideology: no historian or political science graduate unversed in Arabic would be citable on Arabic affairs etc., an obvious absurdity, Walter Laqueur idem (a fine historian on Europe and fascism, but his volume on the 'Road to War:1967' is virtually unusable for its shoddy use of selective sources, except to document the bias of rashly jerrybuilt books on events). An historian is always an historian qualified in a very specific and restricted field of study. An historian of Byzantine dynasties does not by that token gain authority on the Peloponessian war. Talk of demography, well only specialists qualified in the field can be cited? Talk of wars? only Creveld and a few others. Talk of the erasure of old Palestinian toponyms, only Benvenisti. etc. The sense of an encyclopedia would evaporate.
On point 3/, you write:' Some of the 19th century amateurs listed would not really be accepted as authorities today. Obviously the first European Japanologists must have been amateurs.' 'Some' perhaps. But the men I cited, Aston, Chamblerlain, Satow and Sansom are and always will be considered authoritative, (and of course challengeable). They achieved marvels of scholarship from a zero ground base. Their annotated translations of difficult texts are still used.
On point 4/ 'some of them relied much on specialist assistants or collaborators, such as Needham.' Some, namely 2, Needham and Bittlestone, but note, Needham authored alone volumes 1 and 2, and had a decisive role in ordering, mustering, analysing and writing up much of the rest, until Parkinson's disease hit him. It wasn't as if the assistants he required to write about Chinese mechanics or astronomy had to keep him on guard from making amateurish lapses. He was fully accepted by the sinological community as an astonishing polymath in their ranks, despite his lack of formal qualifications in their discipline.
On point 5/ 'the difference between some fields like political science & history is very small.' Actually, that is hugely debatable. A historian typically must strain after intricate details and evaluate them, to recover the unsaid of the past. They have to tease out what the record doesn't tell us explicitly, if they are worth their salt. Political scientists basically deal with what is said. There's a whole difference in the professional mindset each type of discipline cultivates.
On point 6/ 'geniuses are exceptions.' I could quip back 'and exceptions prove the rule' in its modern sense, but geniuses, in the strict IQ sense, are not that rare in academia. Darwin and Einstein have changed the way scientists see the world. Both were notoriously poorly qualified.
On point 7/Lysenko was an agronomist, and, like it or not, controlled thousands of scientists in the Soviet Union. If you dislike that example, replace it with that madman Nikolay Marr, author of the Japhetic theory of the Kartvelian languages.

I.e. the majority of my cases were modern, and consist of unqualified outsiders who, with a good professional background in some subject, took on a completely different field as amateurs, and made a great impact on it, subsequently recognized by their peers.

You then write: 'and, more important, when people write about controversial politics, academic expertise is not the deciding factor.'
I don't understand this, I'm afraid. All politics are controversial, by their very nature. All comment on politics cannot avoid a controversial character. It is in the nature of controversy that different parties see things differently. The Israeli-Palestinian issue is not uniquely controversial. It illustrates a general problem acutely, yes.
I'm not talking about Israeli chauvinists or patriots.
Many of those I would strongly disagree with in here are serious people motivated to monitor minutely texts according to the rules of Wiki which however they apply unilaterally. They are far more certain or what can and can not be said than I myself am. Many I disagree with prefer intensive editing on what others write to actually reading up and writing contributions. Many individual edits I have done are the result of a half an hour to several hours meditation. I put it in, and someone spends little more than a few minutes in editing it out or reverting, without adequate explanation I spend another half hour clarifying the edit and analysing whatever reason was given, usually discovering that the editor in question has not taken the time to read my motivation, but merely cites wiki rules (I.e., I'm too lazy to tell you why you are wrong, read the following pages) I know, and which, even rechecked, prove irrelevant. It is this editorial mania unaccompanied by productive contributions, which disconcerts many.
NPOV is an excellent rule for writing, but it does not avoid the obvious problems of knowledge, something which is a whole academic field, in good part, initiated by Karl Mannheim. We know that however hard a historian tries to get the facts right, no matter how scrupulous his intended objectivity may consciously be, his presentation will ineludibly have a POV. To practice the profession of history is not ipso facto to enjoy exemption from a POV. It simply means, in proper practice, that the historical mind is trained to observe his own prejudices while trying to evaluate data about others. To have a POV is not a fault, since we all have it. It is a fault if we allow it to distort the intrinsic complexity of evaluating the available information at our disposal so that only one version triumphs. To pretend that while excising what others write as POV means 'invariably that in the edit concerned, there is no POV involved, but simply a neutral application of the NPOV rule, is superficial. I trust NPOV judgements, personally, by looking to see how those who edit apply it, unilaterally or equably to either side in a disputed section. There are several people who I admire in here for editing quickly contributions by anyone, pro-Palestinian or Pro-Israeli as the case may be, that attempt to distort or maim the historical record, or establish language that prejudices the reader (The use of 'Judea' without some gloss like 'in the Biblical Judea' when writing of the West Bank has gone largely unnoticed. You cannot technically speak of 'Judea' without adjectival qualification referring to its past denomination in Biblical texts, of territory which in international law is Palestinian, and is now properly 'The West Bank'. To do so is to insinuate settler language onto the page. Several dozen pages have this error, sitting quietly there, without anyone troubling to correct the misusage).
'most of the israeli patriots (or chauvinists, whichever you prefer) around here are convinced that the anti-israelis are dominant at WP'
Well, professional historians I know of (and some are Jewish, and not public figures in these controversies, and please don't object to the qualification 'jewish') say they have given up trying to contribute to Misplaced Pages because on Israel-Arab relations, it is impossible to work sanely, and not because of pro-Palestinian bias. We are required to be balanced, sure, but 10% of the historic population in 1900 has 78% of the land, and is still haggling for more of the remaining 22% nominally in Palestinian hands, but effectively under the control of the IDF and 'settlers'.(a euphemism for 'squatters', as English usage customarily called the practice they engage in), on the grounds that the residual, undeportable population is congenitally terrorist, or as Rabbi Kook put it, not fully endowed with a human soul.
If one is in pursuit of objectivity, one shows it by using sharp eyes out for imbalance on all sides. For example, every instance of an Arab massacre of Jews is minutely documented, argued, and detailed (fortunately). Look at the 1929 Hebron massacre. I touched that because I know that the universally voiced figure of 67 murdered happens to be incorrect, and needs finessing, and a futile edit war was sparked off, I suspect by overnervous people who thought that by lowering the figure to the median 64-5. somehow the memory of those who were massacred would be dishonoured, or even that I might be an anti-semite. Most known massacres of Arabs do not even have pages, or if they do, but do not register on the average person's memory, they are brief (the Safsaf massacre was as atrocious as the 1929 Hebron massacre. It has none of the detail of the latter). If the massacre of Arabs registers on popular opinion and looks like it could be the likely object of frequent searches, Deir Yassin for example, then the site seizes up with edit battles endlessly, guess what, over the numbers, with 'patriots' endeavouring to haul the figure down, independently of whether Milstein is correct or not.
'exclusion of very small minority viewpoints' I hope this is not an allusion to Shahak, Chomsky, Mezvinsky etc., or even Finklelstein (whose purging from the University was organized by Alan Dershowitz, against the consensus of peer review, and against the known esteem for the quality of Finkelstein's research by Raul Hilberg, the foremost authority on the Holocaust - instance enough to show one how important a role the control of what the public may know is considered in many quarters). 'Majority viewpoints' are basically about 'public opinion' and as Nietzsche once observed, public opinions are what people who lack private opinions embrace, i.e. they follow the impressionistic drift of the 'public' consensus Walter LIppman long identified as a consciously structured bias manufactured for political ends. In the academic world, there is not neat sensible 'majority' - crackpot minority divide on these issues. (The minority rule is rightly understood to keep flat-earther kinds of comment to a minimum, not to exclude say, in articles, on Turkish history, Armenian or Kurdish contributions).
I can assure you that whatever Wikipedians of different persuasion think, the views of these men are not minority views among people who trouble to inform themselves of the history of Arab-Israeli relations. What Shahak says Lustik says, only Lustik has the proper degree, Shahak was just a Holocaust survivor and chemistry professor with a deep interest in Jewish traditions. "You cannot cite him, he's a polemical Chemist!" Okay, one cites his sources, Nahum Barnea, Herusalem Post/Haaretz etc. You cannot cite them because you got them from Shahak", the ever reliable Jayjg shouts, and the newspaper articles are cited without titles (as they are, unchallenged, on numerous other wiki pages, btw). Effect? Neither Jayjg nor I doubt that Nahum Barnea's article on the Baruch Goldstein massacre on the said date exists. But unless I take a plane and go to the archives (original research) and dig out that article, I cannot cite it from a secondary source he regards as 'unreliable'. This is not editing, this is censorship, or making it laboriously difficult to get well known evidence paged. I note this with equanimity, as slightly comical, and a proof of the said editor's indifference to Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of information, and bide my time.

These men are deeply respected for their exemplary display of an old virtue, the capacity of a dominant majority to see deeply into the hidden unspoken or suppressed world of the dominated minority. I even know of people whose anti-semitic outlook I managed to break down because I thrust on them precisely books written by the Chomskys and Shahaks of this world. They talk truth to power. Half of Western modernity came from Jewish intellectuals who could do that, because they assimilated into the majority culture of Germany, France and the US, but kept their vision tuned to the age-old awareness of what it was like to be an abused and despised minority. It is now characteristic of much Western thought, and reins in our implicitly imperial presumptions to enjoy the world at whatever cost to those who will never be a part of it, because the system has crushed them underfoot, and swept them under the carpet.There you have my POV. I got it from a great man, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who wrote it while imprisoned by the Nazis,-We have learned to see the great events of world history from below, from the perspective of those who are excluded, under suspicion, ill-treated, powerless, oppressed, and scorned, in short those who suffer. I thrust it into view, because we all have one, only some pretend that WIKI rules, if scrupulously applied, will guarantee that one's POV as editor/contributor will automatically disappear. That is epistemologically puerile Nishidani 11:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

who can publish a reliable source - break

I posted this above, but it may have gotten lost in the shuffle... does anyone have a problem with changing the wording to:
  • "The reliability of a source depends on subject matter context, for example, a world-renowned mathematician may not necessarily be a reliable source about biology. However, a source may be reliable outside her/his primary field if s/he has become recognized as having expertise in that area."
I think the change shifts the focus onto how others view the source... It accounts for the fact that some people are considered experts in multiple fields, or are recognized as being amature experts in one field even though they may be primarily employed in another. Think beyond the Chomsky debate folks... there are a lot of subject areas that have recognized experts who are working outside their primary field of study. We can not write policy based on our desire to either include or exclude one particular source. Blueboar 12:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I think your rewording is an improvement. Thanks. --DieWeisseRose 23:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
It depends on what "recognized as having expertise in that area" means, and how we can objectively define it. Tewfik 07:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
‘’The Middle East Policy Council’’ of Washington opened its pages for several years to Israel Shahak some years before his death, for 11 articles and an interview. They do not publish fringe-lunatics, or weirdo views, but only positions by people considered as having authority to speak on the subjects they address. An editor, Jayjg, has removed consistently citations of this material, published in that journal, because he was a primarily a Chemistry Professor, at Tel Aviv, notwithstanding the fact that one of his works was also written in collaboration with a noted historian, Norton Mezvinsky, professor of history at Central Connecticut State University. Long a distinguished scholar and teacher the latter was awarded the title of Professor by that university in 2002 with the following words:-
'Norton Mezvinsky is consumed with excellence in teaching, research and scholarship, ever mindful of his responsibilities to contribute to the larger good of his fellow human beings. Professor Mezvinsky’s work as a consultant in Arab/Israeli peace negotiations over many years has had a profound effect. The insight of those many years of labor provide his students with ‘living’ history. Professor Mezvinsky is one of those rare, extraordinary, and erudite professors who make the profession of teaching the calling that it truly is.'
That is not good enough for some editors in here. Are anonymous editors better judges of the concept of ‘academic authority’ than ‘The Middle East Policy Council’ and the Trustees of an American University? He considers Shahak as an outstanding authority in the field of Jewish fundamentalism. Why do the views of anonymous editors, whose credentials for making such judgements one cannot evaluate, carry more weight than recognized experts and organizations in the field?Nishidani 09:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we can set a clearly defined line for what "recognition of expertise" means... it really depends on the subject area, the reputation of the source in question within that subject area, and the consensus of editors working on our articles dealing with that subject area.
My point is that we can not and should not write policy based on the disputes that arise out of one topic area or another. We have to take a more wholistic view. There are subject areas (especially those dealing with pop culture) that rely completely on "amature" experts (one does not get a degree in Pop Culture)... these have to be accounted for. And some sources are considered experts in more than one field (the TV sports commentator Stan Fischler, for example, is considered an expert on both the sport of Hockey and on the history of the New York City Subway). We have to allow some wiggle room in our policies and guidelines.
Yes, an undefined line will mean that there is a grey zone... where a source may be considered an "expert" by some but not by others. Where there is a debate over the degree of "expertise" of a given source (such as the ones you discribe above) it will have to be settled by consensus on the article or project talk pages, by the Misplaced Pages community at large through RfCs, and even in a few situations by Arbcom cases. Blueboar 13:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
DieWeisseRose's edit and Blueboar's subsequent modification are an improvement, and Nishidani's list of scholars whose training was in one field who have made significant contributions in other fields was fascinating and enlightening (thank you!). I would add to the latter two examples of a slightly different order. R.P. Blackmur and James Wood are two of the most influential literary scholars of the second half of the 20th century. Wood never did any graduate degree and Blackmur only had a high school diploma. I give these examples because the discussion of "primary" vs. "secondary" areas of expertise is sort of a red herring. The credibility and stature of a source is determined not by his degrees or the topic of her dissertation; it's determined by his or her recognized contribution to a given field. This is measurable. That Chomsky is a linguist is neither here nor there; his contribution to media studies, political science, and Middle East studies (in that order, probably) is enormous, and recognized as such. This can very easily and objectively be established by scholarly citation indices, honorary doctorates, academic conferences organized around his work, and so on. Of course Chomsky can be cited as a reliable source; and if Nishidani's edits on Hebron are being reverted on WP:RS grounds, he should probably file an RfC. That Chomsky has a bias does not distinguish him in the field of Middle East Studies; if Chomsky is cited for an opinion or analysis or whatever, then certainly it should be "balanced" by others, but then that is true of any scholar in such a contentious field. But if it's a citation of archival materials that's at issue, as Nishidani's post above indicates, there should be absolutely no question of Chomsky's reliability.--G-Dett 23:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
A slight correction. Chomsky if I recall correctly hasn't be challenged on Hebron, certainly for as long as I have worked there, but on other pages where I contributed. I think one would have great difficulty in denying him, within the rules, the right to be cited on the Middle East, because it is fairly obvious that he is recognized for the quality and intelligence of his input. I believe West Point Military Academy recenly invited him to give a lectureon the Middle East to the graduating class. Yet, editors of senior standing still question his being cited (except possibly in court), and the challenge is pretextual.
I would have thought no one would question Ian Lustik's right to be cited, of course, but I have actually been challenged by Jayjg for having cited his quotation of an anonymous rabbi at Baruch Goldstein's funeral in a section on 'Commemoration' , which was removed on the grounds that it is a  :' claim attributed to an unknown and possibly non-existent rabbi'
I don't need to explain to experts what's going on here (apart from noting that the phrasing is inept. What is being attributed is not a 'claim' but a quotation.) We're not supposed to refuse material from eminent authorities because we have personal or unexpressed grounds for doubting its veracity. The principle is verifiability not truth, or asking people to do background checks to ascertain a hinted counter-truth which may inform the editor in question's suspicions but which he will not divulge to others. To challenge, anonymously, a qualified historian in this way is . . .extraordinary.
A more difficult case is Shahak. Second part of the page on him is disgraceful, esp.for giving prominence to the foul charge he was anti-semitic, and for highlighting quotes from people who don't know what they are talking about (or aren't familiar with such old classic studies as Joshua Trachtenberg's on the odder sides of Jewish folk religion and rabbinical treatment of it). There are very few people deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Talmud, its reflection in certain fundamentalis rabbinical circles in Israel, and on ideology Shahak was one of the few to scrutinize this complex terrain. He may well have got some important things wrong - I don't know a historian who doesn't - but he does give one a glimpse into areas little known, and cites his sources. Secondly, since he collaborated with Mezvinsky, a qualified and distinguished historian, to make those charges is by association to brand Mezvinsky an incompetent and an anti-semite, all to disqualify important (if polemical) material from pages where it may have relevance.Nishidani 12:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


Tehelka on terrorism

  • Tehelka, an investigative paper in India, has been cited as the source for claims that a suspected terrorist identified the Indian gov't and not Sikh separatists as being behind the worst act of aviation terrrorism prior to 9-11. See new content added to Air India Flight 182 and Talwinder Singh Parmar. Does anyone have perspective on whether it is a reliable source? The theory had in the past been discredited, but if reliable sources are examining it, I guess we have to cover it. Canuckle 00:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I would say hold off on it until other sources are reporting their own findings (as opposed to reporting what Tehelka found). WP:RS says "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" and I would say that this would need more verification. Corpx 01:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
If this is something covered and discredited in multiple reliable sources, the best route for inclusion would be to mention the paper said X, but that this theory has been generally discredited. Be sure to cite mentions of the theory being widely discredited from reliable sources. To present the theory as potentially accurate, multiple reliable sources would need to be available as mentioned by Corpx. Vassyana 01:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Tehelka is a 'notable' source, but I dont think it can be called a 'reliable' source, especially in sensitive and controversial issues. Tehelka is known for sensationalism and its promoters and journalists themselves have been the subject of several legal/criminal investigations. So, anything they say has to be taken with truckloads of salt. Sarvagnya 01:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks all for ther reassurance. I'll go see what I can do about the content. Canuckle 06:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Please try Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for queries about reliability of specific sources.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Who took out everything under see-SUMMARY sections?

Hey, WP:SUMMARY says you're supposed to leave at least a paragraph in {{see}} sections. Who took out everything and just left links? This page sucks for searching now. ←Ben 19:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dammit, I'm going to revert those sections back to what they were before in a day or so unless someone else does it first. ←Ben 06:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a quibble ... but WP:SUMMARY applies to Article Space, not Policy/Guideline Space. That said, I don't see any harm in summarizing the other Policy and Guidelines pages that relate to this one... as long as we do so accurately. Blueboar 12:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Pointers to this page attempting to explain what a reliable source is are now worthless, because someone deleted the explanations of what qualifies and replaced them with pointers to other pages
the above line used to be the section header ←Ben 07:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I am so upset about this. I hope lengthy headers don't qualify as WP:POINTs, but if they do I apologize. I think it's fair to make everyone who looks at the TOC see this at least until it's fixed, at which time I will be the first to shorten the header. ←Ben 04:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well this was one of the deletions in question, done at the time WP:ATT was being promoted as a unified policy. I have seen widespread lamentations about the missing information. I am restoring the blanked sections. ←Ben 07:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I put them back

I believe I have brought the missing sections of this guideline back to their pre-WP:ATT-promotion state. This guideline was positively eviscerated by SlimVirgin in April while she was trying to build consensus for the WP:ATT policy merge. This version is the result of my effort.(diff) ←Ben 07:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I support the restoration of this material. I understand that there are two schools of thought on this, that some feel simple, broad, general guidelines are best and that the more detail there is, the more it leads to wikilawyering. But I believe that it's good to spell things out for people. I've seen many editors who use very poor judgment in regard to sources and who have benefitted from this greater detail in the past. TimidGuy 15:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind having the material back... but one of SV's criticisms was that the material at times contradicted what was said at WP:V and WP:NOR (and thus WP:ATT)... if we are to keep the material we need to carefully go through and check each bit against the Policy in question. Blueboar 15:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Blueboar. I could put in a little bit of time each day -- up to a half hour. Could you help? And Ben? TimidGuy 16:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Not a problem: I copied the sections when applicable from WP:V and preserved the {{see}} header at the top of those sections. Only when the section was not available from other policies did I use the text from the early April version. ←Ben 20:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Good work. Maybe invite SV to take a look? Would be nice to have her on board. TimidGuy 20:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

IMDb?

As a user-contributed source, should IMDb be considered a reliable source for biographical information (i.e. an actor's full name, DOB, etc)? — pd_THOR | 12:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

No, because the information is not verifiable... we don't know who contributed or what their qualifications are. Blueboar 12:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikinews, Firefox news, other user created news sites

Do these meet WP:RS? They don't appear to, from my understanding, but wanted to get a third opinion. Kyaa the Catlord 21:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Wikinews definately is not a reliable source. It looks to me like firefox news is user-submitted articles, so I'd say it does not either. I might be wrong on that Corpx 14:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Biased sources

I apologize if this has been asked and discussed before, but I do not see any element on the numerous policy/guideline pages regarding conflicts of biased sources (or those accused of bias). We all understand the concept of reliability and verifiability as it pertains to, say, published scholarly works vs something you found on the internet, but when it comes to a conflict between sources equivalently official or formal or scholastic, what is to be done?

The problem derives largely from political agendas embedded into sources, and political persuasions of the editors using those sources. There are countless ostensibly reliable sources which are heavily tilted to the political left or right, twisting, skewing, and otherwise misrepresenting the facts.

In short, many (if not most) editors will, based on their background, education, etc, have sharply differing views about which sources are reliable. There are those who are strongly anti-American, and will accuse American sources of being biased and inaccurate. There are those who trust American sources over Chinese, Soviet, or Arab/Muslim sources, accusing the latter of being ideologically biased. There are those who discount all Israeli or pro-Israeli sources as being part of some Zionist conspiracy. This isn't restricted to secondary sources (scholarship, the media) - historical primary sources can differ widely on the facts as well.

How do we deal with this? How can we argue, definitively and convincingly, that (for example) American government sources are more reliable than Chinese government sources on any given subject, particularly when dealing with someone from an anti-American and/or pro-Chinese background and persuasion?

Not all government sources are equally reliable. Not all scholarly sources are equally reliable. For that matter, not all wiki, blog, or otherwise online sources are equally unreliable. But how can we objectively and definitively argue the reliability of one source against another? Surely a majority vote is not quite good enough. I see this as one of the most major problems facing NPOV and verifiability on Misplaced Pages, and I don't see any direct policy or guideline addressing it.LordAmeth 16:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Neutral point of view and no original research require that we do not attempt to judge which information is "true", but rather that we present the information from reliable sources available, without placing our own conclusions into the article. Claims from a single source, a dubious source or held by an extreme minority are covered by rules regarding undue weight and fringe theories. Our verifiability policy sets out how questionable sources should be handled. Also keep in mind, we're expected to use some sense and discretion. The rules are intended to be an elaboration of principles, explicitly discouraged from trying to detail every circumstance. I think the situation you describe is already well within a sensible application of the principles as already elaborated. Vassyana 22:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I definitely agree that rules creep is a bad thing. Still, the diversity which makes Misplaced Pages so wonderful also means that there is no commonality among editors as to discretion, or our ideas of what constitutes common sense, reliable sources, or dubious material. WP:V explicitly states that "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and that "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight." But this kind of guideline/policy only serves to leave it completely open for people to disrupt Misplaced Pages in order to further their own political or ideological agendas. This isn't about different scholars interpreting the same event differently, the kind of debate which fuels all academia; rather, this is about people being raised and educated in highly nationalistic, ideological, or otherwise propaganda-laden environments and then arguing, repeatedly and endlessly, that their version of the truth is the real truth, that their sources are reliable, and that others are not. How can Misplaced Pages itself ever hope to be a reliable source itself if it gives in to this kind of skewing of the facts? LordAmeth 23:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
this is not a question for rules, but for the development of a proper spirit of cooperation and cultural sensitivity, and this can only done by the continued interaction of WPedian committed to these ideals. In practical terms, when it breaks down, the solution is a WP:THIRD third opinion or other dispute resolution,or a discussion of the sources at this notice board or elsewhere as appropriate. Most WP articles actually do fairly well once the problem is pointed out, and if you have some exceptions in mind, let's hear about them.DGG (talk) 07:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
You're right, this really is about developing a spirit of cooperation and cultural sensitivity, but unfortunately, that idea works far better for a smaller, closed community wherein the members can gradually work towards this spirit together. As it is, with new people constantly joining, who have not been a part of that development of a spirit of cooperation and sensitivity, and bringing their own biases, their own agendas, etc. ... As you asked for some examples, I point you to Korean War, where one editor has been repeatedly and incessantly pushing for the use of Chinese and North Korean statistics rather than Pentagon statistics regarding casualties. Take a look at Japan, Military history of Japan, or countless other articles in which editors constantly push for a representation of Japan more in line with their own Chinese, Korean, or otherwise anti-Japanese nationalistic ideology. These forces are even stronger and even more evident in articles such as Israel, Palestinian people, and 2006 Lebanon War. I have no interest in continuing this debate further - I am not trying to be confrontational or contrary - but I think the problem is evident, and is a quite serious one. If Misplaced Pages hopes to ever be a reliable source, it needs to take a stand for truth, and to stop giving in to nationalistic, ideologically skewed, or otherwise inaccurate accounts, regardless of how many people believe them or how strongly they believe them. LordAmeth 13:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but in the examples given, it is not only Chinese and Korean nationalistic sources that are problematical, but nationalistic Japanese sources as well, just as Pentagon statistics are one source, but not for that fact absolutely more trustworthy (independent sources seem more reliable on Vietnam and Iraq, for example). Ienaga Saburo was forced into a 30 year lawsuit from the mid-fifties because of the Educational Ministry's cancellation of his history book dealing with WW2. There are still many issues: brothel slavery, Nanking, Causes of World War Two(many senior political figures blame the US), Unit 731, colonial policy in Korea, genocidal policies in Chinese regions etc., which find strong editorial and political opposition in Japan, though one must allow that the quality and diversity of scholarly research in that country covers far more angles than is the case in many countries which were its victims in WW2. There are senior figures in academia who deny the Nanking massacre took place, and many scholars who affirm it did, but are often treated as minority voices. Generally speaking, if a country has a vigorous culture of quality public and academic controversy over key questions of this order then one is in better waters, and Japan does, unlike China and to a lesser degree South Korea, have this. But much of what passes for mainstream opinion, or is dismissed as minority views in Japan would, respectively, be minority views and majority opinion elsewhere. Western countries are not exempt from this apparent paradox, nor is the Middle East. Israelis often express surprise at how little of what is debated with polemical fire within Israel gets into the Western press, and how many opinions many of them entertain unproblematically in Israel, are attacked as 'anti-semitic' if represented abroad.
I understand the well-meaning intentions of the governing principles and think them salutary, but they do not solve many outstanding issues, and those with long experience (certainly not people like myself) should do a little more to refine them. National viewpoints in themselves are not at all trustworthy, American, Chinese, Japanese, English, Russian, Israeli, or Arab. I would go further, a national perspective ipso facto is unreliable: though it can be studied and cited as such, it necessarily understeps the limits from which serious understanding begins, because the scholars engaged in it do not look at the facts, but rather what facts are congenial to the image and politics of the nation defended. Scholarship that is up to snuff is required to strive for certain cross-national, or universal standards of qualitative research into archives, sieved by basic principles of judgement about bias, tendentiousness, incomplete perspectives etc. I think one can get beyond this by insisting that, rather than scooping the net for information, in these delicate, politically charged areas, people be asked to give particular attention to the scholarly literature, of which there are vast quantities, most of it not available by scouring search machines. The vice, as I see it, is that wikipedia tends to feed off net-sources in areas of controversy where national interests are in play. Net sources contain immense riches, but in critical sectors are so riven by sectarian, nationalistic and political interest groups, that composition of an informed, neutral and intelligent article, is improbable if much of the work is woven from digital sources.
You can't cite Alexander Cockburn's Counrterpunch here (radical leftist rag), independently of who is hosted on it (Uri Avnery, Craig Roberts) without strong challenges, but you can cite the once respectable, (but in scholarly circles considered thus no longer) Wall Street Journal, despite the many self-opinionated crackpots with a dreadful trackrecord for honest and precise analysis it hosts. The problem here, is that Alexander Cockburn was a resident editorialist of the Wall Street Journal for several years. He hasn't changed, and was acceptable to the WSJ. That has changed radically over the last two decades, and yet is still acceptable on the strength of a reputation in desuetude, while Cockburn and his paper are not.
As a though exercise, I would ask, finally, others to imagine what kind of wikipedia would have been written had it been composed in 1770? Voltaire, Rousseau, Hume, Diderot, d'Alembert, Helvetius, etc. would have been swamped out as minority polemicists with a strong POV, and no fixed social position, opposed to the standard powers, royal and clerical, of the age, and instead we would have a tissue of articles mugged up from précis of broadsheets, newspapers, chapbooks, antiquarian encyclopedia, learned provincial journals for the educated gentry etc. Nishidani 15:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This policy should be destroyed

just for the bands sections

WAIT!!!is just my opinion cuz... the stupid people ACTUALY exist... now, I'm basing my opinion in a video I watch on youtube the video was named Stone Sour & Murderdolls: don't remember this part (but you can still see a link in the talk page from slipknot).. there the viedo said that Slipknot is a Death Metal Band and they're NOT. If you sheck the death metal section you will se their far away from death metal. The only reason they say that slipknot is a death metal band is beacuse their heavy and they nihilistic, but (again) their FAR AWAY from death metal.

Another example is when I saw in a magazine (i don't remember it's name XD but it was a poser magazine) that my chemical romance is emo and if you take a look in the emo page you'll see that they're far away from emo, just like Fall Out Boy that call them selves emo

My point is... we should rather use the experts musicologists opinions than the opinions of unexpert crritics or the self-labeling bands cuz the next thing we would see is that a power pop band that is a bit heavy is thrash metal or grindcore just beacuse MTV says so (besides grindcore ain't even metal)

I'm sure that many of the wikipedists are musicologists just like me (I'm not famous but still I am). But in the meanwhile we should use perhaps the sound of the bands based definitions of the generes to know which genere is which band.

HEY!!! HO!!! SHEISHOP!!!

Actually, your comments show exactly why this guideline (it isn't a Policy) is needed. It clearly states that we should be using expert musicologists as sources... provided they can be established to be experts and have published their opinions in a reliable forum. Youtube isn't a reliable forum. Blueboar 12:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
no, but what I was about is the video that was on youtube, but the video is an MTV video, so then, can I still taking MTV as a reliable source?
Another thing is that, for example you can find in a page that the Used is heavy metal, so for then, that page can't bee considered as a reliable source, can it? - Yo, yo!!! sheish!!
You could not report your own observations or findings based on watching MTV. That would be considered original research. On the other question, it would depend on what kind of "page" it is. If it's a page from a music magazine, or a music magazine's website, then yes that would reliable and probably would need to be cited for verification purposes. If it's just another website, then no. Vassyana 01:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Then, at least this policy or rule or whatever should change just for these cases. Only in pages that especializes in music, but what about the self-labeling bands? can a band's page that self-labeles itself as a genere and does not not fit in a genere be considered as a reliable source? User;SHeishop =P
There is an absolutely vast number of references that discuss music, including (but not limited to) popular music magazines, trade publications, reference works, textbooks and so forth. If there is a lack of such material, it is highly questionable whether or not the band is notable. If the band is notable, there should be third party reliable sources that describe the music. Vassyana 02:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
In a case where a band self identifies with a particular genre of music, and they have their own webpage, that webpage is considered reliable per WP:V and WP:RS (under the self published clause). MTV is a reliable source... however where a musicologist contradicts MTV in another reliable source (say, a music magazine) I would give the expert a greater weight. This is a perfect example of the fact that there is a range of reliability. It isn't always black and white, yes or no. One expert might classify a band in one genre, and another might classify them in another. Blueboar 02:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The music magazine SWITCH talks about haow pop punk now days is not punk at all is just pop, those are musicologists, does that means I can change the genere of a band like +44 to pop rather than pop punk? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sheish (talkcontribs) 02:22, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

footnotes

User:Iknowyourider recently added (returned?) a footnotes section. I (sort of) object... Not to the content of the footnotes, but to having footnotes at all. This is a styalistic thing... I don't think policies and guidelines should have footnotes. If something is worth including in this guideline, it should be in the main text and not stuck down at the bottom of the page in a footnote. We can argue about the specifics of what these particular footnotes say later... first, let's see what the consensus is on having such a section at all. Blueboar 17:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

PhD Thesis

Are PhD thesises considered a reliable source? In some instances when I am hunting sources they are cited (in journal articles and other scholarly works). While arguably self-published, it isn't like they aren't given serious scrutiny by experts (my own thesis defence is still three years away and already I dread it!). Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I consider them "semi reliable". I would trust them for factual claims, less so for opinions. Often the key points appear later published in a peer-reviewed paper, which is certainly reliable. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Depends - many are published by the relevant University Press, and they're at least "quasi-reviewed" - i.e. the defence. WilyD 13:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This has been discussed in the past. A PhD dissertation undergoes a considerable amount of peer review -- perhaps more so than a published article. There are typically five committee members who are specialists in the field. The committee also usually includes someone from outside the department or the university. Dissertations are regularly cited in academic journals. I think they can be cited as bona fide scholarly work. TimidGuy 15:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I generally think otherwise, at least in science. first, they are often almost unavailable--in the case of many UK theses, literally unavailable without the consent of the author. Second, anything good in them would normally be published in a peer reviewed journal. Third, at least in my experience on both sides of things, the level required is nowhere near as high as an article. In the humanities, theses are sometimes cited. I would not accept it as a reference unless it had been cited by another worker in a peer reviewed article, or if there were special circumstances. They're just too iffy. US theses are never' published by the university press in the usual meaning of publication--if they appear to be, it is either a case of a book based on the thesis having been published by the university press, or the university being listed as the publisher--which is another matter entirely of much lesser authority--the university publishes all sorts of things, press releases included, or they are printed by the university press--that also is the case in Europe sometimes. Basically I agree with CBM on this. DGG (talk) 01:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, DGG. Good points. Let's say I wanted to cite a Harvard dissertation. Which guideline or policy would disallow it? TimidGuy 10:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I would discourage the use of theses in general, especially if they are not on the university’s normal accession lists. The whole purpose of sourcing is allow other editors and readers to readily confirm what has been written in an article. If the source is accessible with only the greatest difficulty – or not at all – then it’s really rather useless. Worse, it becomes a venue to insert someone’s POV in a nearly unverifiable way. If the thesis is of fundamental interest to the specialized community, then it will likely be further developed and find its way into a peer-reviewed publication or book. Perhaps we should best think of them as “proto-reliable sources.” Askari Mark (Talk) 16:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Whoa! Please note that in some countries doctoral dissertations are always published, and they are completely uncontroversial to cite, just like any other academic monographs. Considering the crap that appears to be acceptable to reference on Misplaced Pages (see my complaint about the name website below), gratuitously banning all doctoral dissertations would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Olaus 12:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I had the same thought -- that compared to other types of sources cited in Misplaced Pages, such as a local newspaper, dissertations would be a good source of expert information. And it seems like they're relatively easy to access, either via interlibrary loan of via purchase through ProQuest. But it may be that Misplaced Pages should at some point address the issue raised by DGG and Askari that relative accessibility may be a consideration. Right now the impression I've gotten from earlier discussions is that if the source is, in theory, available, then it's acceptable -- even if that means traveling to a special collection in a distant city. TimidGuy 15:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Spam of on-line "source" for personal names acceptable?

I just noticed that somebody has added a box with a number of standard links to a great number of pages on personal names. One of the links goes to a website called http://www.behindthename.com/. It seems to be a pretty low-quality amateurish and non-academic website, which cites no sources in itself. Is it really acceptable to spam a link such as this one on all pages on personal names?

If sources are needed for these pages (even though most are basically just lists of people with a certain name), there are real, academic onomastic dictionaries for various languages or cultures. Most are probably not on-line, but will be found on a reference shelf in your favourite research library. Olaus 07:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You've certainly got the right idea. Check out our pages about external links and spam. The good people over at the spam WikiProject might be able to help you out with individual cases or get feedback. If a particular site is problematic or a particular user repeatedly spams, you may wish to report the incident so it can be handled. Hope this all helps. Cheers! Vassyana 08:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I went to Misplaced Pages talk:External links and discovered that there had already been a discussion about this very website there a few weeks ago, but with few comments and no clear conclusion reached. I added my view there. Olaus 08:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Is a collection of article summaries hosted at a third party site a reliable source?

I my mind it is not, since the summaries carry the biases of the one that summarized them. Also for quotes, the context is missing... What do you think?--Alexia Death the Grey 16:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It depends on what you are using the source for. Blueboar 17:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
For this. Comments are welcome.--Alexia Death the Grey 18:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Can a wiki ever be a reliable source?

I'd say no, given that the content of a wiki can change, but what do others think?--h i s r e s e a r c h 09:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That's not relevant. Opinions change over time. Reliable sources of knowledge die eventually. The paradigms that govern our perceptions shiftover time, etc.etc. See Thomas Kuhn, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Wiki is invaluable because it does constitute an intimately meticulous record of the way general judgements are constituted over time, unlike most reliable sources which present one with a single-frame snapshot of a field that has limited temporal validity Nishidani 10:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Personal website of family member, a reliable source?

Is the personal website of a family member considered a reliable source for an article's subject? We're facing this issue at Antoni Dunin where a number of people keep resisting removal of stuff that is sourced to the subject's granddaughter's personal website. WP:RS says specifically:

For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

I have stressed the point that we cant use personal websites like this as sources for an article or to assert notability, and this is what is being done here. Any feedback from uninvolved editors would be appreciated. --Matt57 12:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I have weighed in at the article... but will repeat here. Basically the answer is "no", it is not reliable. It would be a reliable source in an article about the family member who owns the website (and I would say a statement in another article about that family member) but not as used. Blueboar 13:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Should Misplaced Pages prefer non registration/subscription sources for references?

I believe that Misplaced Pages should prefer references and sources from websites that do not require registration or subscription. What does everyone else think? How should I go about fixing reference policy? Note there is a WP:External links policy that external links generally not be made to sites that require registration or subscription but it excludes references, I think it should include references. Which sand witch sandwich? 21:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It really depends on how this "preference" is expressed. If two sources are equally reliable, and one is freely available to all, while the other requires registration or subscription, then I think it's reasonable to replace the paid/registration source with the free one. But if information is available only on a reliable site which requires registration (such as the New York Times' archives), it would be foolish to exclude that as a source.
For article sources, reliability is more important than accessibility. Lots of reliable sources can be accessed only by going to an academic library. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use them. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 21:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I nominate your text above for how the policy change should be worded: equally reliable then free content is preferred. I bring this suggestion up because I think nytimes.com is used way too heavily as a source since it requires registration and there are numerous other newspaper websites that don't. How many people have to agree before we can update policy? Which sand witch sandwich? 21:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
If we have two reliable sources we should generally cite them both - multiple sources are considered a good thing aren't they? While I understand the desire for freely accessible links, I think the only time we should consider replacing a link for a reliable source is if there happens to be a link to an equally reliable free/non-registration/non-copy-vio version of the same document. -- SiobhanHansa 21:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
(EC) That the reliable source exists (or existed) and has been used is the most important part. We don't mind when someone refers to a long out of print book that they found in a well stocked reference library, and I have occasionally used subscription sources when they had no equal. For obvious practical reasons, we do not insist upon sources that anyone and everyone can verify. Otherwise, anyone who does not live near a reference library (to use that example again) could challenge a perfectly good source, and that would be unreasonable. Adrian M. H. 21:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Isn't a bedrock policy of Misplaced Pages open or free as in freedom content? I think non registration/subscription requiring sources should always be preferred, and sources that require registration/subscription should only be included if there is no other reliable source. Which sand witch sandwich? 21:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but that surely refers to the content that Misplaced Pages is providing directly, not to content to which we refer in citations. Book analogy again: If someone cites a book that they purchased because it is not available in libraries or in Google books, is that wrong because it is not free content? Adrian M. H. 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I think Misplaced Pages is part of the open and free as in freedom content movement, as such Misplaced Pages should prefer non registration/subscription sources. Which sand witch sandwich? 21:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Free-as-in-beer/non-subscription does not equal open content in a licensing sense. Are you proposing we should prefer GFDL or similarly licensed sources? -- SiobhanHansa 22:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Registration and subscription really are examples of closed content, as such we should prefer alternative sources. Which sand witch sandwich? 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
They are no more closed than a book published in the last 70 years. But more to the point - sites that are free are still not necessarily open content- and open content is what we wikipedia is about. We're about making closed content open. As such using closed sources and rewriting them so the information is now easily available in a GFDL format is a good thing. -- SiobhanHansa 22:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
That's not necessarily true, when I am done with a book I can give it to my neighboor, subscription websites might not let you do that. Should I create a straw poll section for whether non registration/subscription websites should be preferred for references? Which sand witch sandwich? 22:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The discussion at WP:CITE is fairly detailed by now, and largely parallel to this one. I suggest that you wait and see what consensus emerges there before pushing the discussion here further. And remember that polling is not a substitute for discussion. —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 08:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Since registration and subscription sources are not readily accessible to all, except on payment (1) citing them can be abused for evident reasons, also for financial ends by interested parties (2) one must, if one cannot pony up each time the necessary price, take the citer's word for it. Presumably then the person employing such resources has access and should cite for others, in the talk forum at least, the relevant snippet from the text in order that others may be in a position to judge the relevance and authenticity of the cited article. Unless some mechanism of this kind exists, one will create a two-tiered system among editors, consisting of (academics and the well-heeled) and the hoi polloi. I had a problem verifying one cited source which looked very suspicious to me, because I happen to know the author's writings well, and the view attributed to him was totally out of keeping with his known views. Fortunately I knew someone with professional access to the restricted site, and after some hours, he passed me on a copy of the text. The passage in question was wrongly quoted. Most editors will not have the opportunity, as I did in this case, of controlling and verifying the correctness of a reference to a restricted source.Nishidani 08:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It is perfectly in order to request first page numbers, and then quotations, and translations if necessary, if the material is critical and contentious. I have even known scans to be supplied in particularly difficult cases where the existence of sources was doubted.
But in any case there are editors who can help provide access to almost any material. A good place to start is at the appropriate wikiProject talk page for the subject. Some of those with extensive general access who offer to help can be found at the WikiProject Resource Exchange which has a list of people prepared to supply copies of articles and other material, almost always for free, (for wikipedia research purposes only). Most librarians at Misplaced Pages will do whatever necessary to obtain copies of needed material without their individual capabilities. See the WikiProject Librarians.
Librarians in any public school or academic library will also help. They all know about Misplaced Pages, and most are fascinated by it. There should be no need for payment in most cases, at least if one is willing to be patient-- books generally take several weeks.
Remember that many books before 1900 or 1920 can be found in full text via Google Books--an amazing number is already available, which will soon include the complete contents of some of the largest libraries. Even for books after those dates, sometimes "snippets" of material are available there which can serve to verify quotations.
For the long range solution to this problem, see Open access. DGG (talk) 10:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Josiah, Adrian, et al. This movement is (in the short term, while most of the world remains copyrighted) a chilling effect rather than a step towards editorial democracy. If implemented, it could do more to help supporters of censorship and editorial control rather than those who oppose those values. Anchoress 23:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Using Michael Neumann as a source for remark on Raul Hilberg

I've been slightly worried, I think needlessly, but I am not expert on these rules, about possible objections to my using Michael Neumann as a source for a remark on Raul Hilberg as a life-long Republican voter. He wrote an 'In Memorian' article in Counterpunch recently. Michael Neumann is, for some (not myself) a controversial figure: Counterpunch is attacked as an, intrinsically, 'unreliable source'. But . .Michael Neumann happens to be the son of Franz Neumann, who was Raul Hilberg's Phd supervisor, and oversaw the drafting of that historical masterpiece. There's a family connection, in short. If someone out there thinks this questionable, I'd appreciate a note.Nishidani 14:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Please post this at WP:RSN. ←Ben 08:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Fox News. Reliable Source?

I was wondering the community view on this. Some consider the network to be conservative biased and at worst a propaganda network and that believe they edit certain material so using them as a citation is not reliable. Some may make the argument that other news networks are biased and follow these same practices. I do not think they are any better or worse than CNN or MSNBC for verification purposes and they are not without accusations of biases themselves. Does the contention of editing their programming when they store it on their website constitute lack of reliability or is this normal practice blown out of proportion by partisans? Just curious. MrMurph101 20:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

  • I have yet to be shown any evidence of stories Fox published that were factually incorrect, or had to be retracted, that would show them to be any less reliable than any other news network. People may have an issue with what stories they choose to report on, or what aspects of those stories they choose to emphasize, but that in no way reflects on the reliability or accuracy of the facts they report. In my opinion, calling Fox News "unreliable" is simply partisan hackery. I notice no one has a problem with Fox being cited in Sicko. Probably because they gave the film a glowing review. - Crockspot 21:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree with you. They should be given equal weight as the other networks. If they do report something it increases the notablity of the subject since the network is broadcast worldwide. We should not blantantly dismiss a source due to perceived biases. It seems the alleged post-production editing is used as an excuse not to use them as a source. I was wondering what the deal is with that. MrMurph101 21:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh dear, dear. Gentleman, if there's time for some vacation reading, I commend Walter Lippmann's Public Opinion 1921. It even exists online, and studying it will save many from naivity about what these networks do. He was no fanatic, a centrist, but a clear-eyed realist about how reporting functions Nishidani 21:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice and I will consider it. I wonder what he would think of wikipedia? However, I'm not here to discuss the more general debate of the philosophies or methods of mass media. I just wanted to know the consensus of using Fox News as a source as opposed to other news networks. MrMurph101 22:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
We treat The Guardian as a reliable source, though it's far more to the left than Fox is to the right, and The Guardian, unlike Fox, has been repeatedly demonstrated inaccurate on controversial political topics. We may not enforce WP:NPA consistently vis-a-vis left-wing and right-wing, but NPOV suggests we should at least try to do with respect to sources. THF 01:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

TV Squad

Is TV Squad a reliable source? - Peregrine Fisher 03:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Primary/Secondary sources

I've removed the recently-added material concerning primary and secondary sources. This material was previously at WP:NOR, and was moved here despite a major controversy concerning it on the talk page. Clearly, there is no consensus as to this section, and in any event, it would be redundant, as there already is a link here to the disputed section. COGDEN 20:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The edit summary (link here) indicates that this material used to be a part of RS and was removed when WP:ATT was promoted (unsuccessfully). Was this removed by consensus at the time? If not, shouldn't there need to be consensus to remove it, not add it? R. Baley 21:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think so. Policy and guideline articles aren't like normal Misplaced Pages articles, where consensus has a kind of "inertia". Policies and guidelines must reflect and describe present consensus and usage. See WP:Policies and guidelines. They are very conservative, since they have a potentially damaging coercive effect across the whole Misplaced Pages. If something is controversial, it doesn't belong in a policy or guideline, unless Jimbo or the WP:Arbitration Committee make a ruling. COGDEN 22:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow! I have been against mentioning that concept for a long time, but I had given up on it and didn't look here for a long time (I applied WP:Ignore_All_Rules instead). :-)

In short, the (in principle good!) idea was that original raw data ("primary source) may be difficult to interpret for average editors, in which case it could be better to use so-called "secondary" (interpretive) sources. Regretfully that led to introduction of more stuff ("tertiary sources) as well as to the misunderstanding that hear-say and inaccurate citations of earlier sources should be preferred over the original sources, even when those original sources are perfectly clear and/or already interpretive. In the end, it's better to do without confusing jargon. Harald88 19:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Jargon serves a purpose. And in any case, the primary/secondary divide is very important to spell out. I am restoring that divide, at any rate. Hornplease 21:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Hang on, I've just seen the edit comment that removed it. Can the reason its not here be explained futher? Is it now enshrined permanently in WP:NOR as policy, or is, as it used to be, a guideline? In which case it should be here? Hornplease 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, I see that it's still present in WP:NOR; however, the mess that I described here above is - happily - absent, as far as I can see. So it's become quite harmless now. Harald88 20:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Interview article on web site

I have conducted an interview with an individual on his product.

The interview is posted on a site, which also happens to be a forum.

There are further articles in the same area of interest, often with research, references, etc.

The site bares a valid Health On the Net Foundation logo, and abides by it.

Could the interview be referenced and considered as reliable source?

If not, what are the criteria for reliability for web-published interviews?

--Libertate 13:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Crucial aspects of reliability

Reading over the guideline I am surprised to see two essential aspects of reliability near completely absent from the description.

  • Relevance. A reliable source should be written purposefully to inform about the subject they are being cited for. Passing references, asides and similar statements should not be used. When a reference is written specifically for the topic, the editorial focus (and therefore the "fact checking" and resulting "accuracy") is on that topic, helping to ensure the reliability of the information. For example, a book about breast cancer is not a reliable source of information about heart attacks, except perhaps are correlated with breast cancer specifically. The author could be a well-respected doctor, but the focus of the work is on breast cancer and cardiology is likely outside the author's direct expertise in oncology.
  • Recency. A reliable source should represent current knowledge and views of the topic, including information and opinions about historical views. Out-of-date sources lack reliability, as they will tend to represent obsolete, disproved and inaccurate information in relation to current knowledge and views. A book about particle physics from the 1960s would be significantly out-of-date and out-of-step with a modern understanding of particle physics. A book about ancient Christian history from the 1860s would be similarly obsolete and contrary to the current understanding of the subject. There are surely exceptions to such a rule, but they are exceptions, not the common example.

Thoughts?

  1. Kasun Ubayasiri. "PHD thesis" (PDF). Retrieved 2007-05-31.