Misplaced Pages

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Please to do the bug 9862

Dear Jimbo

A month ago you said some comments about No Open Proxies to help us in People's Republic of China to edit. Thank You! Now there is a Bug 9862 (bugzilla:9862) which can help very much and not be a problem for stopping vandals too. The Bug work stopped because no sysop will do the last part of it.

I ask you please to say that it is okay to do the finish of Bug 9862, which will help us edit from PRC. Fzpsc 21:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been having some bad luck speaking with you lately. The reason I wanted to speak with you is because I would like to ask you to push for completion of Bug 9862, and creation and grant of the relevant permission to several people on enwiki.

Besides being pretty much essential for people in the PRC, it will also help several people outside the PRC, including an experienced medcom mediator, and an experienced (non-associated) mediator. --Kim Bruning 16:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I third this request. ←Ben 04:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Fourth, we're blocking proxies for vandalism, but it's keeping good contributors out. ~Kylu (u|t) 19:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear jimbo Wales

I think your userpage needs to be protected from massive vandalism .Richardson j 00:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

He's not going to do that. Do you not see the bit that says "You can edit this page!". It's a core part of his philosophy, and ours too. --Deskana (apples) 00:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the whole of Misplaced Pages needs to be protected from massive vandalism. But as it is, it's organized in such a way as to allow massive vandalism by immature attention-seekers. (This is widely claimed not to be a bug but a side-effect of a feature.) The user page of the cofounder/founder of Misplaced Pages is an immensely attractive target for these nitwits. Granted that they'll be vandalizing some pages on WP, let them vandalize this one: as a known target of vandalism, it will be on many people's watchlists, so the nitwits can easily be identified (and their silliness elsewhere identified and reverted), warned off, and, if necessary, blocked. -- Hoary 00:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

O.k.Richardson j 02:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you just articulated Misplaced Pages:Fly paper.LessHeard vanU 20:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

He won't protect it. Its "watchlisted" by plenty of editors as Hoary stated. However having jimbo's page unprotected does make finding vandals easier.--Hu12 20:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

A complicated question about PD, GFDL, and so on that you (and maybe a Wikimedia lawyer) might want to take a look at

You can see the full question here, but the short version is: Can public domain sources be copyrighted, and if not, wouldn't a Misplaced Pages page drawn from a PD source be PD itself, as the GFDL cannot apply to it? I bring this to you because it's a complicated legal issue for the foundation, if a page was significantly founded on, say, 1911, the edits to it (barring total rewrites from the ground up) are all minor changes to a public domain source, and are probably not copyrightable, which means that a page made from PD sources would probably always be PD, and not GFDL. I also have seen you quoted as saying that Copyleft is incredibly important for Misplaced Pages (especially because of forks and mirrors), and thought this might interest you personally. --lucid 03:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

IANAL, but I don't think this is really a big problem. If something is under a less restrictive license than the GFDL, then it really doesn't affect distributability. And PD is the ultimate in less restrictive licenses, having as it does zero restrictions. -Amarkov moo! 03:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You are mistaken about the law, rendering the entire question moot. Things in the public domain can be modified and then the new version is copyrighted. Public domain is not "copyleft". A page made from a public domain original source can therefore be GFDL without any difficulty of any kind. Period.--Jimbo Wales 14:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Like I said though, this could be a problem because if something like this happened (which I'll admit is unlikely, as Jimbo has himself said in interviews that even things like historical articles in 1911 are horribly outdated) the Misplaced Pages article would not be able to be licensed under the GFDL, as that is a form of copyright, which can't be applied to PD. As Jimbo has also stated, Copyleft is important to Misplaced Pages, I can probably find the exact quote very easily. A Misplaced Pages article being in the Public Domain, instead of GFDL, could be problematic in the future, not to mention it's just an interesting scenario --lucid 03:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think adding wikimarkup, categories etc makes changes significant enough to consider an article to be a derivative piece of art. Thus, if an article is a verbatim copy of EB1911, then taking the text from wikipedia without applying GFDL is legal, taking the text and links and categories and illustrations is not. When we have a pure PD pieces of art, like our images we mark them accordingly Alex Bakharev 04:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a very valid issue especially since some misquote and misjudge Jimbo's words on the old sources and try to "clean WP" from 1911 EB and other old sources in a bot-like fashion. Once I've seen an excellent note to this degree by written Utgard Loki:

"It was absolutely endemic in 1900 to judge one's subject. 1911 EB entries on authors not only provide information but also rule on whether the authors are worth reading or not, and which works show the best spirit... The facts have not changed, largely, but we no longer pass judgments. It is not that the 1911 EB is a bad source -- it is a very, very good source -- but that it contains inappropriate judgments... is complying fully with scholarly practice. In simple terms: there is nothing wrong with citing an old source's information, but there is something wrong with citing its valuations... Scholarly practice is to use the most current references solely so that the reader knows that the author has read everything, not because there is anything inherently better about them. In fact, most contemporary sources will be based on the older ones, especially for their primary research. If there is nothing more current, then a 19th century source is fine..."

So, yes, we need to have the PD issue settled. At the same time, if I understand the issue correctly, we are concerned with the freedom of distribution and redistribution. Having some of the WP in PD in addition to most of it in GFDL won't limit the redistribution. In fact, some of the WP is already in PD as some users in their multilicense tag on their userpages, choose PD as their second license. So, unless there is something I don't see, both using the old sources is not bad, when done properly, and having part of the WP under PD-licence is not bad either. --Irpen 04:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't so much that the content is PD, so much as if the content is PD only, as using one from a previously PD source would be (A user's contributions might still be under the GFDL and PD, not PD only) because then small corrects made to it are still working off of a public domain source, which would make that revision itself copyright -- which could mean that an entire article is under PD, not GFDL, with no attribution to their authors, as well as copyleft not existing --lucid 04:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If the article does not cite its sources it needs to be fixed regardless of their copyright anyway. Once the sources are attributed, what exactly is the problem? I don't see any. --Irpen 04:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There may be editorial issues arising from use of sources such as the 1911 Britannica, but I agree that there are no troubling legal issues because PD by definition is more free than GFDL, not less, and in any event, no one would have standing to raise any complaint. Newyorkbrad 04:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

That rationale (setting aside the conclusion) is probably inconsistent with the statement just offered above Jimbo Wales. Moreover, an I.P. specialist would probably take immediate issue with the conclusion on standing, which is always contingent on specific facts, which have yet to be presented, let alone clearly stated.

In any event, the nuances and legal theories that may (or may not) apply here are entirely independent of the standards, practices and objectives presented by the Wikimedia Foundation pursuant to its charter. Impromptu adjudication of prospective legal disputes is, quite frankly, beyond the scope of this discussion page. dr.ef.tymac 15:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

IANAL, but "public domain" means that anyone is free to use the image for any purpose, which includes creating derivative works, using it for commercial profit, and relicensing derivative works under whatever license they choose. This means if we take PD works, we can use them for whatever we want, without attributing the author, and create derivatives (adding them into our articles) and relicense the derivative under GFDL. --Deskana (apples) 15:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

IANAL either, nor I do anal, but there are more sources that are public domain than just 1911 Britannica. On a much larger scale, all works by the U.S. Government on the federal level are PD, with some minor exceptions. Since we do reference pages created by the Feds, the concerns are not restricted to the Britannica text that has fallen out of copyright.

But even then, public domain means simply that the work is not copyrighted. Since copyleft uses copyright law to create restrictions on prohibition of redistribution/modification/lack of attribution and their kin, documents that fall outside of poyright restrictions also fall outside of copyleft restrictions. Since PD works are not copyrighted, you really can lift a PD document and do anything you want with it. (Of course, I'm leaving out the entire issue of moral rights, but that is an entirely different beast.)

Since we're supposed to be citing where we get our stuff from, this should not be an issue: Yes, we can distribute text or an image under the GFDL, because PD does not prevent us from doing that, but if someone wants to do something with the original PD text that the GFDL does not permit, then they can go straight and use the original PD source, just like we did to begin with. They would only have to obey the GFDL for any modifications we would have made to the original text, which constitute derivative works and are indeed copyrightable, or in our case, copyleftable by individual contributors. Or they could choose to follow the GFDL restrictions we placed on the PD text if they choose, because it would make their life easier. So I'm not really sure what the problem is here. Titoxd 19:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Titoxd hit it spot on. I could take, say, Ruthsarian's public domain layouts and redistribute them on my site under my own license. If I didn't substantially modify them (see e.g., Bridgeman Art Library vs Corel Corporation), then I wouldn't be able to enforce my license, but there's nothing wrong with applying my own license anyway. In the context of free documentation, copying a Misplaced Pages article which was based on a public domain source is effectively equivalent to copying the documentation from the PD source, then adding some changes that Wikipedians made. Whether that is fair use is based on those modifications from the original, not based on the article as a whole. — xDanielx /_C 06:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

racist anti-semitic editor

This is a tricky case and you may feel that it would be inappropriate to get involved, but you ought to be aware of this, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Kola Boof

A request was put on my talk page about an article myself and other editor deleted due to OTRS concerns. Since it was deleted twice for OTRS concerns, I wish to bring it to you before I wish to do anything with that article. User:Zscout370 04:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Complaint of 3RR

I found that someone merged Kiev and Kyiv. I explained that Kyiv is a wrong word but they still having revert. The problem becomes a edit war now. Raymond Giggs 20:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This is Jimbo Wales talk page and is usually used for matters that mostly concern Jimbo or require serious attention. Edit warring, three revert violations, and similar issues can be addressed at requests for page protection, the three revert noticeboard, and administrator noticeboard/incidents.¤~Persian Poet Gal 20:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations!

		The Original Barnstar
		Congratulations, you have been awarded the origional barnstar for creating Misplaced Pages, which is a major accomplishment that requires hard work. --Alien joe 21:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that Jimbo's awards can be put straight into his barnstars section, to which there is a link from his userpage. :-) Lradrama 15:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Um also you win for existing.

Attemping to compromise on the Sanger article

To no avail...any suggestions?--Trulexicon 01:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It should be pretty easy to find a compromise. It is wrong for Misplaced Pages to take either side on this issue.--Jimbo Wales 13:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me, or is the real problem here not a debate over whether or not Sanger is a co-founder, but that people insist on summing up a fairly complex situation in a few words, when it needs more like a paragraph to explain it? --lucid 14:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, just for the record, which "compromise" version of each article(yours and Larry's) do you endorse/perfer? It might help if you posted it here so we could refer to it. TIA and regardless of who "founded" wikipedia I really enjoy it :) Cheers! --Tom 14:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think my own preferences are not all that important as to the exact wording. :-) --Jimbo Wales 14:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I was curious since you say that a compromise should be easy and you have said that you like the "current version" but the ways thing change so fast around here I wasn't sure which version that was. I also disagree with the editor below. Your imput is welcome and trolls will be trolls regardless(not referring to the editor below). Anyways, --Tom 18:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, don't you think getting involved at all with this, let alone advocacy, does more damage to your reputation than whether he's called a co-founder or not? I sure do. It makes you seem pompous and vain. Can't you be emotionally independent enough to not care? I beg, please ignore this. It just gives fuel to your enemies who want to call you names behind your back. Tn017 17:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Judging from Jimbo's replies above, I don't think you have anything to complain about. - Crockspot 20:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

CONFERENCE IN MALLORCA, SPAIN

Dear Mr. Wales,

We would like to invite you to give a conference/speech about free software, open source, and linux in general, in our hometown, Palma, in Mallorca, Spain. We are an association called InfoCoop, which belongs to the UCTAIB, focusing on developing our work within a cooperative effort, especially in education, which started two years back, as a support group for computer science teachers, and which later developed into organizing related events. Last year we invited Xavi de Blas, a university teacher from Barcelona who shoud be coming back to do his linux show later this year, last May we had Richard Stallman talking about GNU/linux, and in October, we will have a journalist, Vicent Partal who is running an online newspaper all based on free/open source software from Barcelona. Now we are trying to organize and book some more lectures, and we would be very interested in having you over here, and listen to what you have to say. The lecture would be open, and we usually count on the cooperation from club Diario de Mallorca, a local newspaper's venue which fits over 200 people. There is also further press coverage, including television, since we keep it open to everyone and invite and send information to all major organizations in the area. Obviously we we would cover travel, food and board, and your own fees. I hope we can meet soon in Mallorca, and attend your lecture, of course. Please let us know about your agenda, availability of dates for 2007-2008-2009, whenever it is more convenient for you (except July, August, everything seems to stop for the summer, over here) and costs.

Thanks for your time, hoping to hear from you soon,

Llorenç Mercer

ll.mercer@gmail.com

Misplaced Pages:No original research

Hello! You may be interested in the heavy discussions and edit wars concerning Misplaced Pages:No original research. Cheers! The Ogre 18:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Eastern Europe

Jimbo, I know that you will probably not answer this, but i am quite certain that someone will. Any admin, or any user, who spends any time in wikipedia cannot but be aware that there is an increasing tendency for users from Eastern Europe to user the project as a platform for their particular political platforms. Yes, I know that any user can, and should be able to, edit wikipedia. And yes, I know that wikipedia is not censored. But it is patently obvious that our friends from (mostly) Romania, Lithuania, Ukraine and Estonia have no interest in posting any articles except their particular political dogma. This just leads to ongoing edit wars between diffent national political factions of the country in question, and does not in any way enhance Misplaced Pages. I am fully aware that I can 3RR block, but is there no more radical solution that can be adopted for what I see as a major problem? --Anthony.bradbury 22:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I would hazard that with the derth of reliable sources regarding immediately pre-Communist national history, the repression of cultural and nationalist sentiment during the Soviet bloc era, and the lack of *recent* experience for the citizens in *the practices of* democratic debate, that the attitudes emanating from *some of* the editorship of those articles is not surprising - if more than a little depressing. However, it is hoped that Misplaced Pages is going to be around for a very long time and that eventually we will see good articles being created (by consensus) around these very subjects. In other words, remove the worst, hope for the best, and wait. LessHeard vanU 22:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

As one of the editors primarily concerned about EE-related articles I wholly concur with Anthony's description of the problem although I disagree with Anthony's overgeneralization.

Yes, there are several EE editors who come here to pursue their narrow political and nationalist agendas. At the same time there are many EE editors who edit WP honestly and in good faith. They also frequently disagree which create a set of controversies that take root in a huge stack of interconnected content disagreements as many editors' views are often affected by nationalism or, at least, differences in narratives in national scholarship and/or education.

The ArbCom already threw its hands up recently at Piotrus' ArbCom. At the same time I already broached a porposal that may actually work. It is a lengthy one but if anyone has time to read it, as well as other parts of Piotrus' ArbCom they would understand what we are dealing with and, perhaps, develop my proposal or offer a better one. --Irpen 23:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. It looks as though it would need both internal and external momentum if it were to achieve its goals. LessHeard vanU 23:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

But as the first step, it would need the editors who express their concern about the problem and look for a solution to refrain from disrespectful and patronizing tone. Thank you. --Irpen 23:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I have read Piotrus comments. The basic difficulty, it seems to me, is that in political discussions/arguments on Eastern European issues, it is not possible for anyone to accept that their arguments or position might be wrong. Until editors accept that their opinions are only opinions, and not dogma cast in tablets of stone, the problem will remain. So, going back to my first comment, what is the answer? --Anthony.bradbury 23:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see - perhaps I should have put my consideration in a different manner; Contributors, whose first language is not English but who contribute to the English language wikipedia on subjects on which they may hold strong opinions, do not always recognise the efforts of other editors (who may have a differing cultural or recent political background), whose emotional distance from the subject matter may lead to making observations or comments - in good faith - which are sometimes misinterpreted as being something they were not intended to be. Until such time that involved editors are able to recognise good faith comment from uninvolved third parties and without immediately reading unwarranted bias, possibly owing to a lack of both fluency in the language medium and of experience of the culture of the speaker, the likelihood of there being a mediated resolution of the current difficulties being experienced in the editing of articles relating to Eastern Europe is remote. I have tried twice to offer an honest appraisal, one by an outsider, only to have my native tongue misrepresented and my motives questioned. Best of luck with your efforts, Irpen, but until you are able to understand the help that is being offered then asking for it is going to be pointless. LessHeard vanU 14:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The answer lies in a combination of things. Sensible enforcement of the existing policies has to, sadly, be combined with the enforcement of some common rules of decency and ethical conduct, which is less trivial, since the concept of ethics is often an implied, rather than an explicit one. That there are ethical issues along with the mere policy compliance was made clear in the case in questions.

Secondly, the answer is in the unbiased review and not of the "opinions" because editors' opinions don't matter onwiki and they should not. The reviewed should be (1) the fitness of the sources to the material they allegedly support and (2) the fitness of the material, even if sourced, to the article where it is being pushed. An example of (1) is having historic facts sourced to the newspaper article or some web-site signed by a non-historian, or worse, unsigned. Another example is passing the sources' judgment, even referenced to the academic's writings except for the cases where the judgment is widely accepted or at least very common. Being able to tell requires the knowledge of the subject, honesty and integrity since even academics fiercely disagree on judgments while mostly provide facts correctly.

On (2), the main problem is WP:UNDUE. When an account with an agenda creates a referenced section titled "Homophobia in Poland" and inserts it directly into the Poland article despite a dedicated and narrower LGBT rights in Poland article already exists the editor needs to be brought to order. The same way, the anti-Russian and anti-Soviet grievances some former Soviet-block editors have are being injected unduely into the Russia-related articles to make a WP:POINT.

Sorting this out requires not just good faith and willingness to help but also the familiarity with the subject. That's why I proposed the workgroup. ArbCom however neither accepted or rejected my proposal. Its "resolving" the case without any meaningful decision and lack of participation of the arbitrators in the workshop demonstrates its inability to handle the problem the way it should. I don't think Jimbo can help much either.

As I wrote in my original statement to the ArbCom's case, the mess will likely continue for the most part. After that, when the case was almost concluded, I came up with the proposal of the novel solution. I saw no meaningful reaction to this which, perhaps, means that my proposal is also unworkable. --Irpen 00:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is associated with wealth of Soviet and Imperial Russian sources that are used generously by contributors of Russian descent on Misplaced Pages, and which are very biased and propagandic. This leads frequently to conflict, the problem re-surfaces time and time again

As long as Stalinist era, Soviet and Tsarist era sources about history are used problems will continue. We don't use Nazi sources about history we shouldn't use Soviet ones either. Of course that is just part of the problem, many other factor's exist. --Molobo 00:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

This passionate entry by Molobo largely demonstrates what I was talking about. :( --Irpen 00:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. How does he dare to challenge the Stalinist, Soviet and Tsarist era sources? We all know that they are as reliable as any modern Western era sources, don't we?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

We do not seem to have a guideline on dealing with on-line hate groups. It is my belief, that in many cases what looks like a content dipute is in fact an on-line group using Misplaced Pages to promote an irredentist or revanchist agenda, or even worse, engaging in incitement to ethnic or racial hatred. -- Petri Krohn 03:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Briefly. I don't think EE area is more problematic than any of other controversial areas on Misplaced Pages. We have our share of problematic users, but we are also able to create high quality content (ex. Featured articles) at pretty decent rate. That said, indeed, my ArbCom was a major waste of time, illustrating a certain project-wide issue: WP:CIV and related policies are not enforced, and thus increasingly disrespected by many editors. I am indeed afraid that over long run this will worsen the quality of discource of Misplaced Pages, turning our talk pages into Usenet-level flamechats, as more editors used to more civilized discource (ex. academics) will refuse to contribute to a project where they can be constantly offended. I would indeed urge Jimbo to look into this issue, as this can, if not checked, lead to Misplaced Pages project collapse in future.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Piotrus's view that the EE area is no more problematic than any other area with Misplaced Pages. Anthony.bradbury's characterisation: "But it is patently obvious that our friends from (mostly) Romania, Lithuania, Ukraine and Estonia have no interest in posting any articles except their particular political dogma.", isn't really an accurate portrayal of the situation. Generally the conflict is between current Russian soviet-derived historiography on the one hand, and western-derived historiography adopted by the former Soviet Bloc states on the other. In my view, it will sort itself out over time when editors fully come to grips with WP:RS, WP:V, etc, etc. Martintg 05:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I am unfamiliar with Eastern Europe topics, as Estonia is in Northern Europe. I suspect that Anthony.bradbury means Eastern bloc.

And I fully agree with Molobo, Piotrus and Martintg. I see very little edit warring among "diffent national political factions of the country in question", but there are plenty of single-purpose accounts coming from Russia/Russians, whose issue seems to be inability to cope with the idea that historical Soviet sources are flawed. Add to that the extremely tendentious reporting of events in Russian media (see example) and official policy of Soviet glorification. And that is the root cause of the mess involving Eastern bloc in Misplaced Pages, not editors from "Romania, Lithuania, Ukraine and Estonia", who seem to get mostly along quite well, both inside their respective groups and with other Wikipedians (for inevitable Russophobe and "eSStonian nazi" accusations, not all Russian editors are like that. There are plenty of good, hard-working Russian editors (for example, it has been a pleasure to work with Colchicum and Ypetrachenko), but "bad" editors are far more visible then good ones. Out of five barnstars I've awarded, four are to (ethnically) Russian editors).

I see no quick and easy solution to this. There are examples of wikilawyering from all sides, as attempts to "shut up" their opponents. RfA started by Irpen is perhaps the latest example of that behavior. This constant pressure is... rather hard to tolerate, at least for me. I don't even remember when I had time to actually contribute to Misplaced Pages - especially to my areas of interest, such as evolution - or see about items on my to-do list. Or working on my tools for Misplaced Pages. Instead I have to waste my time constantly patrolling 1700 WikiProject Estonia articles and being involved in discussions such as this.

Perhaps only more attention by neutral administrators to Eastern bloc articles might help, with quickly enforced Misplaced Pages rules and stamping out incivility. Maybe as a separate noticeboard on AN or administrators-only WikiProject? Like I said, no quick and easy answers. I suspect that no matter how many RfC's, AN/I threads or RfA's there will be, this is something that Misplaced Pages just has to cope with. I really hope that I am wrong, but...

Sander Säde 06:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Ads for Misplaced Pages

Just curious, why don't we have commercials on Television for Misplaced Pages? I was shocked to see that a lot of people don't know about it. It would definatley be a nice break from that HeadOn commercial! Cheers,JetLover 23:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, which is a charity funded by donations from the people who edit its wikis. There's no money left for TV ads - most money gets used on things like bandwidth and computer equiptment. --h2g2bob (talk) 23:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The simple answer is (1) the foundation doesn't have any funds for this, and (2) most people know about Misplaced Pages already. — xDanielx /_C 00:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Also most internet searches on Yahoo or Google turn up Misplaced Pages as one of the top three search results. While Misplaced Pages is now the tenth most popular website, it is relatively unknown among the non-internet savvy generation, but who cares? 199.125.109.26 02:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Advertising Misplaced Pages on a country with TV is like Pissing in an Ocean of Pi-- I mean, It's a waste of perfectly good money. The money it would take to even have a very modest national marketing campaign would be much, much better spent paying for more employees, or hardware, or bandwidth, or electricity, or buying OLPCs for her, and so on an so forth. We could do a lot more for Misplaced Pages by putting that money into keeping Wikimedia afloat than by advertising it --lucid 06:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

HTML layout of Misplaced Pages

I have no idea how to get this information to the right person, however this should be a good start. You know that blank space at the top of every page that has a bar and above the bar is the name of the page? Like right now I am staring at "Editing User talk:Jimbo Wales (comment)" - well I have noticed that periodically other notices get stuffed in there and they are underneath (covered up by) the above text and make cutting and pasting page titles difficult, because the stuffed in stuff gets dragged along, like right now what is also there is: "• Your continued donations keep Misplaced Pages running! • • Learn more about using Misplaced Pages for research •". My suggestion, is there any way of talking your developers into moving that extra stuff to above the tabs, along with the other links like Sign in and stuff like that? However, I also want to thank your developers for moving the coordinates information, such as at the top of Glen Alpine, New South Wales to below the bar. It was very annoying to have the coordinate information up above the bar. While some page names are short, others are long, and covered up the coordinates. Just because you did one thing right you didn't need to mess it up by putting something else there. 199.125.109.26 02:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't listen to her! She's neurotic. 86.150.30.172 09:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Donations

I have a career pretty similar to your former one. How much do I need to donate to become an administrator? 86.150.30.172 09:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

See WP:SYSOP. Donations have nothing to do with it --lucid 09:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

All cheques payable to me... --Deskana (apples) 11:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The above comments and the one on my messages are not helpful. Surely it would be reasonable to give special privileges to donors. Naturally I see an arguement for greater scruitiny of the inexperienced, but a donation to Misplaced Pages can be as great a contribution as that of an editor. 86.150.30.172 12:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Adminship isn't a reward for contributing to Misplaced Pages. It is a tool. --lucid 12:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

So why can't I have that tool? 86.150.30.172 13:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, adminship is entrusted by the community to editors whom the community knows well. Editing from an IP address won't get you there (not to mention an IP can't be sysoped). I'd suggest that you create an account as a first step if you'd like to become an admin. Just edit for a long time; make solid, productive edits until you've impacted the community enough to be sysoped. But that shouldn't be your goal; your goal should be the project - making Misplaced Pages the best repository of human knowledge on the planet. =David_(contribs) 12:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely a substantial donation to the community should be enough? Why do I have to be "known well"? 86.150.30.172 13:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Substitute "well known" for "widely recognised as a good contributor", one who is considered unlikely - based on observation - to use the extra tools available to disrupt Misplaced Pages. This is important since the tools available for admins can do a great more damage than those used for general editing. Donating a considerable amount of money only indicates that you have a considerable amount of money available for donation, and not how well you would carry out the work of an admin. LessHeard vanU 14:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Which is sort of like trying to make the sun the biggest thing in the solar system --lucid 13:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Point granted.  :-) =David_(contribs) 13:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: I now have an account. Euriboring 13:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:RFA is the only way you're going to get sysop rights, and without a lot more contributions behind your account, your RfA will fail. Adminship is a set of tools that let you help Misplaced Pages more, and without a need or use for those tools, you will not be granted them. --Deskana (apples) 13:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The Henry Root Letters are much funnier. -- Hoary 13:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)