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Welcome to the discussion board for German-speaking Wikipedians! Feel free to discuss topics and articles of interest in either English or German. As this is the English-speaking Misplaced Pages, discussion in German may be requested for translation for non-German speakers. Happy editing!

Willkommen zum Diskussionsforum der deutschsprachigen Wikipedianer! Hier kannst du auf Deutsch oder auf Englisch über relevante Themen und Artikel diskutieren. Da dies die englische Misplaced Pages ist, kann jederzeit eine Übersetzung der Diskussion ins Englische angefordert werden. Viel Spaß!

Map translation request

Can de:Bild:Münchner abkommen4.png be translated and uploaded to Commons? Our Munich Agreement is missing a map and this seems like a good free candidate.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Nationality (Entering the minefield)

I am updating some German chemists and now I have a problem with the scientists info box entries. For example:

• Heinrich Limpricht (1827-1909) is Residence German Empire and Nationality Oldenburgian, then German
• Adolf von Baeyer (1835 - 1917) is Residence Germany and Nationality German

The problem of who is which nationality and is a German Empire German a BRD German or is this a discontinuety or what ever, is a question I will not ask!

I had this discussion already with if Fritz Pregl (1869 – 1930) is a Slowenian. This question I would deny because Slowenia was never a independant nation while he lived making him an Austria Hungaryan and later a State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbsan and later Kingdom of Yugoslavian. But this should be done by people who whant to fight about it. I will encounter the Problem with Poland and Elsaß early enough.

I only want a hint which of the two methods is prefered! --Stone 15:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

German nationality

Until 1913 there was no German nationality in a legal sense, only the nationality of one of the souverain German states. In 1913 the Reichstag passed the Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (RuStG), which was amended several times later on. It did not introduce a direct German nationality, but an indirect one. So a citizen of the Free Hanseatic City of Hamburg would have the Hamburg nationality and a Hamburg passport, which made him indirectly a citizen of the German Reich (1913-1934). This was changed by the Nazi-goverment through the 1934 amendment of the RuStG, then creating a direct German nationality for all those belonging to the "Reich" as defined by the amended RuStG. The West-German Grundgesetz from 1949 has a definition for German persons. Its "German in the sense of the Grundgesetz" is wider than the "German nationality" under the RuStG (kept until 1999).--Kresspahl 16:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Perfect for a lawyer but it does not help me with my question! Nationality is not defined by laws or birth only but also by heritage, making everything complicated. Staatsangehörigkeit and Nationalität I like more for these kind of definitions!

But still I need an answer!--Stone 16:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I think in cases like these, using "German", while technically inaccurate, is what readers expect. The flags are impossible to get right, but 99%+ of biographies should not have images of flags anyway (only biographies of flag designers etc. benefit from adding flag images). Kusma (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Flags are pointless in most bios. Maybe they are useful for politicians and soldiers, to illustrate which state(s) or army(s) they represented (sometimes changing).-- Matthead      O       13:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages really needs better guidelines regarding nationality. Due to changing borders, many famous Germans/Austrians/Prussians are claimed by present countries as "he lived here, so he's one of ours". See Gregor Mendel for a current ongoing editwar/debate.-- Matthead      O       13:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Categories

A prior discussion about categorization of Germans/German-speakers has got me thinking. Using the previously created Category:German natives of East Prussia and Category:German natives of Silesia as examples, I had created additional categories, such as Category:German natives of West Prussia (for more, see Category:German people by state, which is currently missing Bremen). However, I am doubting that this is the best way to approach the issue. It makes sense to categorize people according to the specific principality/state when they were born, but the current "German natives of" scheme is problematic with some territories.

Some of the current categories can be confusing on ethnic grounds, which are often subjective. When should we differentiate between a "German from Alsace" and an "Alsatian"? Bohemia, Moravia, and Austrian Silesia had substantial German-speaking populations, but were never part of "Germany". How/should we categorize such individuals? Should they be merged into Category:Sudeten Germans? Or should that latter category only refer to the late 19th/20th century concept of Sudeten Germans, or strictly to the Nazi era?

"East Prussia" is another problematic case. It was only formally created as a province of Prussia in 1773, but the phrase has frequently been used to refer to the territory of the Duchy of Prussia (1525-1701) and sometimes earlier. Should German natives of East Prussia be restricted to post-1773? King Frederick I of Prussia was born in Königsberg while it was part of Ducal Prussia; should Category:People from the Duchy of Prussia be created? What about people born in East Prussia between 1701 (elevation of the duchy to the Kingdom of Prussia) and 1773 (creation of Province of East Prussia)? What about when East Prussia was merged with West Prussia into the Province of Prussia (1824-1878)?

A possible solution is to do away with the ethnic classification of "German natives of" and instead categorize solely on citizenship. To avoid cluttering up the root German people by state category, People from former German states could be created as a subcategory. For example, the articles in German natives of Silesia could be split into People from the Province of Silesia, People from the Province of Lower Silesia, and People from the Province of Upper Silesia, based on when/where they were born. The controversial Jan Dzierzon (is he German, Polish, or Silesian?) would be included within People from the Province of Silesia, a subcategory of Category:People from Prussia, itself a subcategory of People from former German states. Of course, that wouldn't help with pre-1740 (First Silesian War) articles- should they be included within a People from Austrian Silesia category? "German" Alsatians could be restricted to People from Alsace-Lorraine, referring solely to the territory/era of the German Empire.

Since Prussian history can be complicated at times, categories such as People from Royal Prussia and People from the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights or People from the Ordenstaat could be created.

Thoughts/suggestions/alternatives? Olessi 17:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Category:German natives of Bohemia, an alternative would be to create Category:German Bohemians (i.e. Bohemians of German ethnicity). Olessi 17:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The current Category:German natives of Moravia could be troublesome, as Category:German Moravians would refer to both Moravians of German ethnicity or to members of the Moravian Church (often used in American publications). Perhaps this one should be merged into the aforementioned German Bohemians category. Olessi 17:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Because "East Prussia" is widely used in English to refer to both the Duchy of Prussia and the Province of East Prussia, I do not see a significant problem with including residents of both in a single category. Plus, this avoids the questionable 1701-1773 time period. However, Category:People from East Prussia is my preferred title. Olessi 17:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Your idea to drop the nationality and instead simply concentrate on just the regions (eg. People from the Province of Lower Silesia) is IMO the way to go. It might not solve all problems but it is a good start. Nationality could then be introduced as subcategories, if necessary. - 52 Pickup 18:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, the introduction of new categories trying to describe regions is useless as they will get removed from articles anyway by certain users claiming they did not exist as political entities at the time . -- Matthead      O       05:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Mistranslated source

Hi there. I'm working on the article on Emma Watson, and one of the key sources we're working with is an interview with the German press. Someone's done enough of a translation to permit us including some references, but the translation is not really perfect. The article is pushing featured article candidacy so we'd really like someone fluent in German to have a look at the source, find out where the quote is coming from, check the references are valid, and see if they can give us a better translation. If anyone is interested in helping, please have a look at the details on the talk page. Many thanks in advance. Happy-melon 18:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)