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Revision as of 18:12, 19 September 2007 view sourceMastCell (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators43,155 edits →Ratify indefinite ban of {{user5|Giovanni33}}: archiving← Previous edit Revision as of 20:21, 19 September 2007 view source Space Cadet (talk | contribs)8,095 edits →Proposal to ban User:Space Cadet from German-Polish-related topicsNext edit →
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When I proposed this, I thought that this board had the main or only focus on long-term disruption rather than a recent and more urgent problem, and that bans can be appealed at the Arbitration Committee if a promising change of direction becomes obvious. Therefore I picked this board because I believed that this naming disruption was destined for eternity. I still believe in this eternity (, as ever ), though I agree with Banno that this here is going nowhere and apologize for the time this has all cost you. If there will be no end in sight and especially should it erupt in a more extreme way, I should like to take this to the Arbitration Committee, where also Dbachmann's suggestion could be considered and which should do justice to the concerns of it being a content dispute and Space Cadet in relative terms. I think it can be closed now. ] 18:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC) When I proposed this, I thought that this board had the main or only focus on long-term disruption rather than a recent and more urgent problem, and that bans can be appealed at the Arbitration Committee if a promising change of direction becomes obvious. Therefore I picked this board because I believed that this naming disruption was destined for eternity. I still believe in this eternity (, as ever ), though I agree with Banno that this here is going nowhere and apologize for the time this has all cost you. If there will be no end in sight and especially should it erupt in a more extreme way, I should like to take this to the Arbitration Committee, where also Dbachmann's suggestion could be considered and which should do justice to the concerns of it being a content dispute and Space Cadet in relative terms. I think it can be closed now. ] 18:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Am I supposed to say something now? Well, I'm glad it's over, that's for sure. I wrote a beautiful response, just didn't enclose it early enough before the whole thing ended. I guess I'll save it for later, just in case. I will definitely try to learn from this experience. Happy editing, everyone! ] 20:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


== ] closed == == ] closed ==

Revision as of 20:21, 19 September 2007

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User:Malbrain

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Reason for block unclear; user unblocked

I have indefinitely blocked this user after seeing his bizarre work on National Labor Federation. Review and undo welcome. Tom Harrison 17:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something here, but indef seems a bit harsh. I didn't see anything that couldn't be solved by filing an RfC ... I could be wrong, though. Blueboy96 20:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I've reviewed the user's edits there. I've pulled up there last six edits to the article, before they were blocked:
These all look like misguided, yes, but good-faith edits by a user unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages policy. Just to point this out, misguided edits by new users are not uncommon. Yes, it's bizarre for them to be only working on one article, but I see no evidence of vandalism or intentional harm caused. In fact, I'm not even sure if this could warrant an RfC. It seems to me all the user needs in a push in the right direction and a little mentoring. With all due respect, Tom harrison, I'm not sure if it's necessary to indefinitely block an account unfamiliar with even how to write articles for, and I quote, "not here to write an encyclopedia". The thing is, if the user knew how and how not to contribute here, they'd be writing perfectly fine articles. I'm sorry if I come off as rough here, but blocking a user who has only started editing regularly on September 6th 8 days later is overreacting to the highest degree, especially not telling them how to use the {{unblock}} template and thus giving them no chance whatsoever at being unblocked. Sorry again if I sound a little abrasive, Arky 20:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
No problem, I posted to hear what people think. Tom Harrison 23:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I haven't examined the edits, so won't comment on the block, but there isn't really any need to tell a blocked user how to use {{unblock}}. If you're blocked, you'll get full instructions on your screen as soon as you try to edit. ElinorD (talk) 23:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)‎
Sorry, ElinorD. I was not aware of his. Cheers, Arky 23:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a puzzling block. The justification is not at all clear. So a community ban is unlikely. So far as I can see, there is no case here. Banno 22:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC) I have requested a second opinion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Second opinion on block for User:Malbrain. Banno 22:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Do what you think best, but please keep an eye on him if you unblock. Tom Harrison 23:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the user has been unblocked by User:Banno and I think that is appropriate. We can watchlist the page and keep an eye on him. --JodyB yak, yak, yak 01:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites opened

An Arbitration case, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites, has been opened. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, - Penwhale | 21:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


Ratify indefinite ban of Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Issue referred to Arbitration. MastCell 18:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

From AN/I. After an extensive block log and two very recent, lengthy blocks for edit warring and gaming the 3RR system, User:Giovanni33 has been blocked indefintely by User:Durova. His previous block on 15 August 2007 was reduced by User:El_C.

Never mind the quality feel the width - great judgment criteria. I suppose it's easier than bothering with the background details. The perm ban of an established editor is a serious matter that should not be decided just by the length of the block log - most of which is over a year old. Sophia 06:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right, we should just ignore his block log. Good call. Pablo Talk | Contributions 06:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a whole area of options between "ban" and "ignore". I am not advocating "ignore" but still fail to see why this particular incident has attracted so much attention. Check out WP:RfC and WP:RfAr and you will see there are many ways to skin a cat. Of course you can always shoot the poor thing and be done with it. Sophia 08:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it's not jsut one incident. It's the fourth edit warring incident in 2 months involving 4 differnt article and 4 different editors. All involved gaming the system. 3 of which ended in blocks and one of which ended in his 2RR pledge in July. His last block of two weeks was reduced by El_C for all the reasons that are being stated for why he should not receive an indefinite ban. Indeed, El_C is threatening to unilaterally reduce his block again. IT's clear that G33 has not taken his admonishments or his pledges to heart. --DHeyward 14:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Sarcasm will not get you the community ban you seek, Pablo. In fact, it increasingly appears to be a form of intimidation. Please try to be a bit more collegial, if not friendly, to your follow editors. Thanks. El_C 10:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Object to sanctions here while ANI discussion is ongoing. Let the dust settle and see what happens with Durova's offer. R. Baley 06:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Object - Length of block log is as much dependent on how quick admins are to block someone as to their actual actions. There are many users with just as extensive a history of edit warring and POV pushing as Giovanni33... several of them actively campaigning for this ban. That their block logs are not, in some cases, as lengthy as Giovanni33's demonstrates to me why such a criteria is a poor choice. Much (though not all) of the impetus for this ban is an effort by one set of edit warriors to banish their opponent. That isn't something we should ever encourage, and if it succeeds it should be applied equally to long term edit warriors of all stripes with similar histories... whether they have the block log to show for it or not. --CBD 07:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse indefinite ban for Giovanni33, or alternatively a 3 month block followed by a 1-year probation period allowing for 1RR only. Breaking 1RR during probation shall result in an automatic indef-ban. If this alternate suggestion is taken, force the resumption of Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story 2‎, which may be escalated into WP:RfArb if the mediation fails again. Those requesting for "parity" here should rather join the aforementioned mediation/arbitration on Mao/Jung Chang to pursue their content disputes. No sanctions are necessary for other editors at this point.--Endroit 14:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I was inclined to support a short-term ban from the whole project, to be followed by a permanent topic ban on all Asia-related articles. But after seeing the evidence of stalking, I have to reluctantly endorse an indefinite ban. Blueboy96 14:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Stalking?????? No one is actually taking that one seriously as it's absurd and an accusation put out by the editor who Gio was in conflict with. Sophia 14:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
That was me, providing the diff's at ANI. I don't believe I ever was in a conflict with Giovanni33. Do you have any proof of it, Sophia?--Endroit 14:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It takes two to edit-war; it seems unfair to indef-ban one side in a war (particularly when it's the opposing side in this case that actually violated 3RR). This seems to be another case of a double standard being imposed by the ruling clique. *Dan T.* 14:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Object. Duplicating an ongoing discussion at ANI here is a bad idea, and this discussion was only started after it become obvious that there was not consensus for an indefinite ban at ANI. On his talk page, after being prompted by Durova, Giovanni (following others before him) has proposed alternate remedies of 1RR probation or a topic ban on Mao related articles (with both remedies to be in effect for himself and the editor he edit warred with). Let's pursue those options for now and keep the discussion in the place which it began. I'd rather not even comment here and lend credence to this thread, but I don't want a few editors who have been in content disputes with Giovanni in the past to do an end-around on the dialogue that is already happening.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse. The behavior of other users should also be looked into, but that doesn't excuse Giovanni33. A fairly lengthy ban (at least 6 months) would be my second choice, though still acceptable. Chaz 17:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Other solutions should be tried before an end-all-be-all indefinite block. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Agree with many here, a contributing editor should not be blocked, especially after showing such an ability to improve in bahavior. If an admin finds themself loosing patience, perhaps they should step back, patience is required to deal with situations. Their proposal, Giovanni33 that is, seems to be the best implementation to avoiding further edit warring over the issue. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33's offer

Reposted from user talk:

:Thanks for your offer and being amicable. For the good of the project, I propose a 1RR limit for myself and John Smiths as fair. I self imposed a 2 RR for myself, and only went to 3 when I saw what he was pushing. I'll happily go to 1 revert as a limit for a proposed lenght of time as is agreed per consensus (1 year, 6 months?), with the condition that the same applies to the other editor in these edit wars with me, who has been reverting in excess of what I have been doing over several articles (more than myself). Since this ANI is considering both of us (or should be, per the 3RR report), its apropos that both are dealt with in a similar manner with a solution that benefits the project. It would also dispel appearances of being one-side, unfair, etc.Giovanni33 03:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a 2nd solution that I think would be better for WP: a topic ban on Mao related articles--but again for both parties. The edit wars all center around the Jung Chang book and Mao's China, and I'd be happy to accept a topic ban on these articles provided John Smiths included, as well. This would be my first choice, and I think a better solution as it would end the edit wars period, instead of slowing them down (I can see John Smith doing 1 revert a day, and this would not a real solution).Giovanni33 03:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Both of these suggestions include reciprocal sanctions on another editor. I would really need to see evidence in support of such a thing before backing that idea, but I have an alternative proposal: this type of remedy fits within the scope of community enforceable mediation where two editors can come together and agree to binding remedies upon themselves. If John Smith is agreeable, I propose a limited unblock of Giovanni33 for the exclusive purpose of community enforceable mediation, which would last until CEM concludes or for one month: if no agreement is forthcoming by that deadline I'd refer to arbitration (shifting the limited unblock to arbitration). This comes with no automatic limitation on John Smith's editing privileges, although I or any other administrator may take action as appropriate. Durova 17:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed it would be best for all concerned if the two can reach a settlement between themselves. If this fails, actions with respect to Giovanni33 and John Smith should each be considered on their individual merits. Raymond Arritt 17:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Option One proposed by Gio seems more favourable to me. As someone who have seen the work of both editors, I know that they have valuable contributions. Only they need to be more willing to give-and-take when they disagree. But I have a question for this Option One - would it be a 1RR/article/week? And is it limited to those articles they have edit warred over? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The idea of community enforceable mediation floated by Durova sounds excellent to me, and is probably largely in line with the spirit of Giovanni's suggestions which seem to revolve around both parties agreeing to some wrongdoing, agreeing to dial down the level of conflict, and submitting to restrictions on their editing activities. Has User:John Smith's been contacted about this proposal? I think he is blocked now but it seems like it would be useful to bring him into the discussion via his talk page.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's and I have traded e-mails and had an online chat. He's preparing a proposal. I'll post here when it's ready. Durova 19:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment This was his pledge 6 weeks ago on a 3RR/edit warring transgression that went unblocked. A few weeks later, he was blocked again for edit warring with a different editor on a different article. That block was reduced by El_C. This weeks edit war was with yet a different editor, a different blocking admin and a different article. If the 2RR pledge didn't mean anything and his blocks keep getting reduced, why is their a belief that anything other that a long period of quiet reflection will produce a change in behaviour? --DHeyward 22:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment — This appears to be an effort by Giovanni33 to shirk responsibility by blaming it all on one user. However, Mongo and others were involved the last time, not John Smith's. I believe the admins from the other recent incidents need to be consulted to determine the appropriate action here. At least a 3-month block on Giovanni33 is in order, for his general disruptions, in addition to the WP:CEM suggested above by Durova.--Endroit 23:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's offer

This is longer so I'll link to it. Reactions and comments are welcome, and Giovanni33 may respond by talk page posts, e-mail, or chat. Durova 21:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's basically a rant, devoid of any introspection (in it, John Smith doesn't acknowledge his pov pushing of Changism for years). The proposal, if I could parse it, involves himself having some sort of revert advantage, that he promises not to use to his advantage. As a sign of good faith, he asks that his version in the dispute be retained. Feel free to stop me at any time. El_C 22:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, please do stop. I'm seeking an effective community solution here to avoid arbitration, which is where things will go if we can't achieve consensus. If there's something constructive to build upon please focus on that, or if there's nothing of value then please say so without placing additional strain on the discussion. Durova 23:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
If you're unwilling, or unable, to reach parity, which thus far seems to be the case, perhaps arbitration would be the best recourse. El_C 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I certainly am willing and able to reach parity if I see a good case that parity is appropriate. You're welcome to make such a case. Please offer evidence in a dry just-the-facts-ma'am presentation. Durova 23:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I just am not sure you are capable of being evenhanded, seeing that your first action will need to be justified in the result. El_C 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
If you need any evidence of my impartiality, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Agapetos angel where I was the sole defender of an editor whose ideology I abhorred. I simply don't accept the paradigm that it takes two to tango: I've seen enough editors where there was a primary antagonist, and it's a very commonplace tactic for a primary antagonist to invoke it takes two to tango in a bid for retributive action when sanctions appeared to be imminent. So I examine each instance separately and so far I'm not impressed by the direction that this conversation has taken: rather than a presentation of evidence for analysis and judgement this approaches challenges to my capacity for analysis and judgement. WP:AGF should weigh here. Please, if you have evidence to present for community discussion then do present it. Durova 01:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of your impressions, I object to you deciding the content end of an edit war that's been going on for years via clumsy action that obviously lacks consensus and is only supported by seemingly well-defined circles. El_C 03:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Reposting: I think Giovanni sees the world too politically and categorises people as being "with him", "against him" or "not involved". He also has trouble accepting that others may have a valid point and trying to find compromise that maybe he doesn't agree with but is a "halfway house" that can move things on. So whilst he was blocked, I would suggest we get a mediator (maybe 2-3) to chat things over with him every so often to see how he was feeling. I think he could do with a sort of "behavioural mentor", someone (or some people) to try to get him to be more flexible and less prone to just want to get what he initially thinks is right. If for some reason they thought he hadn't changed they could recommend he stay blocked, but generally they would be there to help him out.

After the X weeks/months were up, Giovanni would be allowed back. He would be put on 1-revert parole (either per article per week or week) for 6 months/1 year. If he started breaking the terms he would be indef blocked. Also if he was referred again by wikipedians for repeated disruptive behaviour even after the parole was up he might be indef blocked, though that would depend on how people felt at the time.

As for myself, I would re-assure Giovanni I wouldn't game his parole by agreeing not to get involved in articles he has edited and/or still edits which I have not edited. He would draw up a list of articles he is interested in that he thinks apply and we could agree them with someone like Durova. If I started reverting his changes on those articles we had agreed on, I would get a 72-hour ban.

In regards to the points we had been mediating, I would agree not to use my revert "advantage" to change them. In return he would agree to med-arb with three administrators who have not been involved in blocking/unblocking us, editing in our favours/against us, etc. I would suggest Durova (again as a very non-partisan admin) be chair admin, and if we couldn't agree on the other two she would find them herself. As a sign of good faith I would ask that Giovanni not try to change the recent edits I proposed to the lead of the Mao: The Unknown Story article - if he was not happy with them after he returned from his block he could ask they be included in the med-arb.

Some wikipedians sympathetic to Giovanni may think this proposal unfair, but I would point out that if we can't agree to a resolution the matter will go to arbitration, which will be long-winded and probably eventually ban Giovanni or otherwise censor him more severely. There is no reason why we can't get to the position where Giovanni never edit-wars again, but I think a bit of "tough love" is is required here to do that. John Smith's 20:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

First you link to it, now you're "reposting it"? Is this some sort of rhetorical device? It looks like it serves to drown the discussion. El_C 23:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
To be candid, your comment looked like an attempt at poisoning the well. I'm not attempting any sort of rhetoric: I have no dog in this race. I'd just rather achieve a workable consensus if it's possible to do that without referring the matter to WP:RFAR. Durova 23:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I am still talking about parity. I find tou are not being responsive about this limited point. El_C 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
My view of parity is that we consider each case equally dispassionately on its own merits. Giovanni33's case should be considered on its merits, including present behavior in light of prior context. John Smith's case should be considered on its merits, including present behavior in light of prior context. The "if you block one of mine, then we have to block one of theirs" approach uncomfortably resembles tit-for-tat rather than true parity. Raymond Arritt 00:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Block-log and political-derived prejudice appears headed to skew any notions of fair review, leading to such distortion. El_C 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
My worry is that many seem to not be reading the block log correctly, citing each line as a seperate block, and ignoring the time many of those took place and the long stretch between them. They should also take note of who the last blocking admin was back in 2006, and who seems to be advocating the block now. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni's remedies seem to be first more fair, limiting one user and not the other, is just telling one its ok to war and the other its not. What prevents the one not limited from continuing to drown the other out? I am more in favor of the first then the second, however if the belief is the topic and their views, then 2 should be studied. I agree with others, John seems to just be ranting, not actually making a solid proposal. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a worry that John Smith is getting off lightly while Giovanni33 bears the brunt of the punishment. Since this is a CSN notice about Giovanni33, this would be appropriate. JS has a much less impressive block log. I have not seen him reported on ANI or CSN previously as Giovanni33 has. He has not violated other rules such as gaming the system and sockpuppet policies as Giovanni33. In fact, he received one the harshest 3RR penalties from El_C given his block log and he chose to block JS but not Giovanni for edit warring on April 4 (yes they were both involved, it was the same article). It's clear that El_C has a conflict with JS and feels some affinity for Giovanni33 as he has inly blocked JS and only unblocked Giovanni33. Bringing JS into Giovanni33's CSN is more of a red herring. This is about Giovanni33's inability to act civillly within the bounds of consensus and the community adopted policies such as 3RR, Sockpuppetry and Gaming the System and his inability to live up to his previous commitments and promises. --DHeyward 02:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You really should try not to accuse admins of anything unless you are going to stand by them and report it properly. Slinging mud is not appropriate. --SevenOfDiamonds 03:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think I accused anybody of anything here except Giovanni33 who should be blocked indefinitely. I know of no policy that El_C has broken so there is nothing to report. It certainly would be wildly inappropriate for him to use his admin tools to change the blocks of either Giovanni33 or John Smith as he has a history with both of them. --DHeyward 03:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration request opened

This thread can close now. It appears unlikely to generate consensus so I've taken it to arbitration and given limited unblocks for both John Smith's and Giovanni33 for the purpose of participation there. Other editors may wish to revise and expand the lists of involved parties and dispute resolution attempts. Durova 03:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Proposing Community Ban on User:Gold heart

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The community consensus here is clearly to have Gold heart banned. It is highly unlikely that any administrator would be willing to unblock him, as the behavior demonstrated by the user is beyond unacceptable. As such, Gold heart can be considered banned. Acalamari 21:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing a community ban for User:Gold heart, per suggestion of Fred Bauder in "The Troubles" ArbCom case. He was a somewhat good user, who suddenly decided to retire from Misplaced Pages and scrambled his password, but when The Troubles Arbcom case started. he activated an up till then dormant account, User:Thepiper and attempted to contribute to that case (without letting folks know that he was Gold heart). He also created another account, User:Gold Heart (Temp), which violates WP:SOCK and ArbCom Rules. This started a downward spiral which continues to the present time.

Recently, this user has created several sockpuppets to harass User:Alison, both on and off-Misplaced Pages. This harassment included outing of personal, medical data about Alison on Misplaced Pages, and the use of anonymous remailers to harass her off-Misplaced Pages. You can see his on-Misplaced Pages harassment from the contributions of sockpuppets Pronterra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Perolla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Alison has taken the incredibly brave step of stepping forward to show her harrasser for what he is at User_talk:Alison#Public_statement. Now it's time for the rest of us to step forward. I call for a community ban on User:Gold heart and all accounts that they may possess. SirFozzie 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: In order to consider a community ban, we will need diffs to the different allegations that you are making against User:Gold heart. Without seeing links to the actual evidence to these charges (and not a general link, but specific diffs), I personally will not support any ban.--Alabamaboy 23:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Pronterra Perella , , and trying to explain why he's doing this, using another sock account today, SirFozzie 23:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Endorse witch burning. His trolling using multiple sockpuppets during the ArbCom was a very unwelcome distraction to begin with, and now his sinister behaviour and harassment are becoming totally unacceptable. One Night In Hackney303 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I want to see evidence that these accounts are the same editor. If so, then I'd support. Has there been a checkuser? Durova 23:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The user has confirmed that they were User:Gold heart . When I brought this up with ArbCom member Fred Bauder privately off-wiki (due to the sensitive nature of the issue, he confirmed that they were the same account but it would be hard to block the range, because the IP changes). Fred Bauder then directed me over here in the ArbCom case , and suggested an indefinite community ban would be in order here. SirFozzie 23:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

All right then, I endorse it. Sockpuppetry to confound an arbitration case is a very serious matter, and the accusations against another editor are nontrivial. Durova 00:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Endorse I see no reason not to. Abusing multiple accounts, trolling in an ArbCom case, the positive checkuser request, and the on and off-wiki harassment to an editor in good standing provide no alternative. Arky 02:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Endorse community ban absolutely. I found that comment posted to RfARB (link 42 posted above by Fozzie) declaring his love genuinely disturbing. The sooner this gets chopped off at the knees, the better. There is no reason whatsoever for us to allow a user to use Misplaced Pages to harass and stalk one of our editors. I have reblocked Gold Heart (Temp), Gold heart, Perolla with email disabled (partly to disable email and partly to put the blocks in a third party's name rather than his victim's name). This will have no affect on his ability to email Alison, but at least will prevent him from abusing the email function to harass anyone else. Sarah 04:33, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban. What this user has done is unforgivable. Sam Blacketer 13:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strongest possible support The conduct demonstrated is unacceptable in any civilized online community. Would advise contacting his ISP as well, in light of the serious off-wiki abuse. Blueboy96 14:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban. Wholly unacceptable behaviour. Worth checking other wikis too. - Kittybrewster (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse community ban, per Sarah. Second chances are for people who do a bit of edit warring or POV pushing, or get a bit disruptive. They are NOT for people who start real life harassment of our contributors. ElinorD (talk) 14:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban. I'm not familiar with the background to this dispute, but the comments by the user (and his sockpuppets) about Alison's medical history certainly do seem unacceptable. Lots of Wikipedians have medical, personal or emotional issues of various kinds in their lives; publicising details like that about someone else in an attempt to discredit them is not acceptable. As such, I endorse the proposed ban, based solely on the comments made towards Alison; I'm not factoring in the behaviour on the arbitration case, since I don't know the issues involved. Walton 14:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong endorse ban. Blatant sockpuppetry, and now harassment of an editor including breach of privacy: there's no wiggle room here. Away with him, and I sincerely hope that he takes time to seek whatever help he needs. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Unquestionably endorse ban. This user's behavior has been absolutely despicable. --krimpet⟲ 17:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban now that links to the evidence were provided. This behavior should not be tolerated.--Alabamaboy 17:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban - completely unacceptable behavior. Cheers, Lights (♣ • ♦) 18:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban - For all the reasons stated above. Serious abuse on numerous fronts. - Crockspot 18:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I move to close--is there any objection? I see it snowing outside ... granted, it's been open a day, but I can't see why anyone would ever unblock this guy. Blueboy96 19:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban, and second motion to close, per WP:SNOW and the unacceptable behaviour of the subject. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban and motion to close. I was the target of Gold Heart's socks at WP:RfAr. Those were ridiculous enough to be little more than a distraction. However, after his account was publically revealed to be a sock, he emailed with with an apology and explained that his actions at ArbCom were more to do with his issues with Alison than myself. That he will go so far to create socks to attack me just because I happened to support Alison's actions is both scary and indicative of the lengths this editor will go. Lets put an end to this now. Rockpocket 19:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Let it Snow!

  • Pile-on support I know this is closed, but I just wanted to register my support of Alison. She's a great admin and crap like this won't be allowed. Of course it's snowing. . .as well it should be. Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow. R. Baley 07:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to ban User:Space Cadet from German-Polish-related topics

Space Cadet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been disruptive for about five years now in this field. Notified, he seemed willing to change ( ). Some days on, however, a single-purpose account appeared in a WP:POINT campaign, to whom Space Cadet could not help but express his approval and vowed to help himself after his break (). Now he has notified me that his break was over and violated the Gdansk-vote twice again ( ). I suggest he has long exhausted the community's patience regarding German-Polish-related areas. Sciurinæ 01:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a more accurate description of the problem is: for five years, Space Cadet has held a completely different POV from Sciurinæ. The last time I checked, we don't ban people for that. I don't see any revert warring or incivility in Cadet's recent edits you linked above, so there is no serious disruption to consider.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
You are clearly presenting a straw man argument, because you claim that the reason for banning him would be my different POV when in fact I want him banned from Polish-German related topics given his obvious, recurring and never-ending violations of the Gdansk/Vote. You also seem to present an ad hominem argument, because you play down my presentation by pointing out my different POV. I did not even cite revert warring in the two edits (though actually it is on a slow level), nor did I cite incivility, though incivility, too, is an issue (eg against interfering admins for blocking User:Molobo or this more recently one in which an admin just tried to mediate in some Gdansk-related struggle ). It's about a topical ban and not a block for incivility. Sciurinæ 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose ban. I see no evidence of recent disruption in the cited links. In the first of the two "incivility" diffs provided (), it looked like the phrase "what an idiot" was referring self-deprecatingly to himself, not to another user. In the second instance () I agree that he was being uncivil towards Anthony.bradbury (a respected admin), but the incivility wasn't severe enough to merit a block or ban, IMO. Although I understand that this WP:LAME content dispute has been going on a very long time, I don't see any reason to ban this user. I may change my mind if any evidence of actual recent disruption is provided. Walton 18:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Space cadet has never been blocked. This is not a place to continue disputes. Take it elsewhere. Banno 21:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually Space Cadet has been blocked six times. The most recent was in April 2006. I'd like to see a compelling argument that this is not an extension of a POV dispute. Durova 00:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe banning Spacer is out of question. I must say that it has been a while since I've seen a useful edit from him (if ever). Most of edits that I have seen was adding a Polish name to an article and nothing else often without a good reason. He occasionally revert warred too but never even close to the amount of grief brought to this project by Piotrus' most important protegé Molobo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) after the latter's last return from a one year block alone. Also, Spacer is good natured, friendly and sometimes admits to past mistakes and even apologizes for them. I would like to see doing some useful activity but not doing anything useful on the project is by itself not a reason for a ban. --Irpen 01:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
It took me a second reading to understand the irony. :-) Sciurinæ 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
For Durova: The Gdansk vote was the climax of a long-runing POV dispute, to finish it after all was said time and time again. It was intended as a community decision and most voted for its enforcement (including Piotrus), meaning its persistent violation was to be considered an act of vandalism. There was enforcement long ago, most decisively in the cases of Halibut (WP:POINT campaign) and of Molobo ( ). Even so, that was discouraging due to wheel warring by Piotrus ( respectively), so that now after the last attempt of enforcement (wheel warring over Molobo), as far as I'm aware, enforcement through blocking other than 3RR has completely died out. Although Piotrus had certainly been inexperienced as an admin then and you can't bear him any grudge for that now, it is unbelievable that he has managed to make this here look like a content or POV dispute (and "we don't ban people for that" -- Piotrus) rather than someone actively resisting a community's decision. This creeping and never-ending campaign of Space Cadet's five-year-long disruption finally has to be tackled and if that's not the way, then what is? Revert warring against "vandalism"? Or another pointless arbitration case featuring Piotrus? Of all choices, this one seemed to me to be the most rational. Please reconsider it. Sciurinæ 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
To Irpen: if you can't recall seeing a useful edit from this person and perhaps never have seen one, then why oppose banning? Each editor's contributions (or lack thereof) stand on their own merits. Congenial people who aren't building an encyclopedia can easily find a niche at MySpace or some other site. Durova 05:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Durova, I am simply a humanist. I don't like harsh measures without a very strong reason. Besides, banning editors for not being useful while tolerating editors who clearly bring more harm than good to the project just does not make much sense. Nationalist extremist POV-pushers roam freely wasting our potentially productive time on dealing with their edits or endless "discussions" about nonsense at the talk pages and in order to get banned they have to make a mistake of also attacking users in especially horrific ways. Or violate 3RR repeatedly (10 times or so and 3RR reports are not even handled these days). Others spend entire days chatting on IRC, hardly make content edits at all (some none at all) but join every possible policy debate with comments that are completely detached from real Misplaced Pages needs (because someone who does not edit cannot understand the encyclopedia's concerns.) We do not ban those, do we? Sad but true. And here is just a guy who occasionally needs to be reverted. Big deal! If we are serious about improving the project through community sanctions, it is only sensible to start with much more grievously users. --Irpen 07:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Then by all means raise those serious cases in separate proposals. At AFD there's a term for that argument, and although I don't mean it disparagingly toward the individual as opposed to the behavior, that class of argument is known as WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. I wish I had a more polite term for it in this context, but it carries no more weight here than it does there. Durova 07:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Durova, I am not only a great humanist but also a sober realist :) Do you really believe any of the editors like I named above are bannable through this board? I mean some names popped at the top of your head when I gave some typical descriptions, right? Yes, you guessed right. And that one too.
Now, do you believe those users we thought of are bannable through this board? Realistically? And the reasons why it is impossible have nothing to do with their not being harmful enough. So, why waste time? I mean, if you insist that my pessimism is unwarranted I can try and initiated a couple of threads but both of us know that this is futile. So, why start from Spacer? This is simply unfair. When he adds Kijow or Krolewiec once in a while, I would revert him and not see him for another 3 months. But some of his talk page remarks are truly funny and none of them are offensive. --Irpen 08:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The activity of the Piotrus-Space Cadet edit-warring tandem was discussed as part of a recent ArbCom case. One of the key disruptors during the infamous Gdanzig dispute several years ago, Space Cadet has evolved into a "little helper" of Piotrus in his never-ending POV disputes with Lithuanians and Germans, whose occasional revert may prove inesteemable for Molobo and whose fraudulent edit summaries are still mildly amusing. His activity is not nearly as disruptive as that of his comrades-in-arms, so I think that a suspension of his editing rights may be premature at this juncture. --Ghirla 10:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The ArbCom found no wrongdoings on my part, but Ghirlandajo still goes around various boards and discussion pages repeating accusations discarded by ArbCom. I'd appreciate if the community would put an end to smearing my name by Ghirlandajo.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

As someone who doesn't share the opinion that neutrality can miraculously emerge from opposing sides pushing their respective POV, I strongly support the motion to take "official" steps against Space Cadet's Poland-related activities. Look at it this way: Diverting Space Cadet's attention to other topics for some time might actually help him demonstrate to the community that he is not a nationalist one-trick troll, but intends and is able to make useful objective contributions to Misplaced Pages. Personally, I don't suppose he would succeed, but he deserves the benefit of the doubt as much as anyone. --Thorsten1 15:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

What is being asked is that we set up an agreement according to which, if Space Cadet edits certain pages, he will be blocked. So here are the important questions:

  • Are there any administrators willing to implement such a block?
  • If such a block were implemented, are there administrators who would disagree, and unblock?

If no admin is willing to implement the block - I certainly would not on the basis of the info presented here - then we can close this discussion. Banno 22:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


  • Support ban of Space Cadet as his long time record speaks for itself - and against him. Recently, Olessi made some suggestions regarding categorization of Germans/German-speakers at German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I've responded that the introduction of new categories trying to describe regions is useless as they will get removed from articles anyway by certain users, giving seven recent diffs of Space Cadet removing the Category:German natives of East Prussia (No East Prussia before 1772) from persons like Frederick I of Prussia who were born in Königsberg (important Królewiec according to Space Cadet). Apart from biographies, he also "restores POV" to the articles on places like Frauenburg, which is called Frombork only since 1945, but not during the Copernican era . Denying centuries of German history by pushing Polish POV over it is Space Cadet's only agenda. As long as he is around, development of the German-Polish-related topics on Misplaced Pages will stagnate as his behaviour is driving away good faith editors. After five years, it should be him who is made to go elsewhere, e.g. to the Wiki articles covering central oder modern Poland. -- Matthead      O       00:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You can support it all you like. Unless an admin is willing to impliment it, it's dead in the water. Banno 00:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess "Community sanction noticeboard" means that if the Community agrees on a sanction, and it is violated, and evidence is presented, then one of the admins will enforce it. "Load sharing" seems to work in other admins business, too. Do you really expect that first an admin has to be identified before the pros and cons of a sanction may be discussed? BTW: no violation of the community sanction, no admin needed. It can be that simple. -- Matthead      O       01:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you should have a look at the policy. The "community topic ban" idea is fraught. It is not obvious that you have a consensus here, I doubt that any admin would block on the evidence presented. Hence my question - is there an admin willing to block on this evidence? (I hope not, since the evidence presented is years old). If so, then this can proceed. If not, then let's close this discussion. Banno 02:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
If the community agrees on a remedy then I am willing to enforce it. So far I'm neutral on the merits of the proposal. Furthermore, any editor can report evidence of a topic ban violation to WP:ANI and get action. The question isn't dearth of administrators willing to act; the question is whether consensus exists for action. I am categorically disregarding attempts to establish linkage between this discussion and other editors. We all know the Eastern European topics are a mess, but no heap ever got sorted by wailing about what a mess it is. One chooses a particular part of the problem and solves it, then moves on to the next part. Durova 02:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose ban. There are many POVed editors in Poland-German area. But after the great Danzig/Gdansk vote, the area is relatively peaceful. As I explained above, to ban one semi-active editor from one side of the dispute would be petty and hardly constructive. I am not surprised to find that POV-pushers from one side would like to see the others banned - but this is not how this project works; we are supposed to reach consensus by discussions and meet mid-way, not try to ban the other side. Lastly: it would be nice if somebody could actually show that Cadet has violated the Gdansk Vote - citing the relevant part of the vote and relevant diff.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, now you are getting ridiculous. Is the "Poland-German area" and the Gdansk vote again extended to the West bank of the Rhine? Next stop, French-Polish border? -- Matthead      O       04:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Ekhm, Matthead, why do you give us diffs from non-Space Cadet editor and from 2005, too? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
ROFL, although this underscores my longstanding opinion that community sanction consensus should be established by uninvolved editors rather than by partisans to a dispute. BTW what's Polish for Koblenz? Durova 05:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Good point: so far all critics of Space Cadet are the users who have disagreed with him in the content dispute. Considering Cadet's inactivity in past months, that doesn't seem fair.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I came across with Space Cadet contributions back in 2006 in regards of his possible sock puppetry case involving User:Tirid Tirid . That draw my additional attention was his provocative edit summaries as further events shows such practice is carried on till recent . I made impression that attempts to discuss issues with this contributor is hard as he tries to derail them with flaming or irrelevancies . However at that time I did not regard his contributions as extremely disruptive, but Sciurinæ presentation of overall picture of his offensives made me evaluate his behavior more strictly. Regular attempts to go against consensus can be seen as disruptive and neglect towards WP:POINT, which disregard I criticize in other cases too, is especially frustrating. However I do knot know if a ban is a solution here, in other hand I would voice support for additional supervision of Cadet’s future conducts by neutral administrator. M.K. 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose ban. Space Cadet is relentless in long term dealing with historical revisionism and equivocation, thus providing a much needed balance to other POV warriors who hold views opposing to his. Interestingly enough, Space Cadet gets occasional support from the German editors as well, not only from the Polish ones. Please take a look at this series of quick reverts. Matthead, Space Cadet, Matthead, and finally, Rex Germanus,. --Poeticbent talk 15:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
As my name just popped up, I thought I'd join the discussion. First of all, despite what's implied above, I'm not a German editor, though I understand that my user:name might act as a false friend. Talking about 'false friends', I would like to warn everyone (especially the admins and persons unfamiliar with him) do not trust the person behind the 'EU' pic. ("     O      ") I can assure all of you (and a simple look at his contributions will say more than what I'm about to write) that the thing on this persons mind is not the EU, but to infect wikipedia with Pro-German and Anti-Polish nationalistic POV. So naturally he's against a Polish user like Spacecadet, and will try to do everything to get him banned (as proven by his numerous reactions above). I'll say this. Yes, Spacecadet is pro-polish, and yes, a little less Polish POV wouldn't hurt, but given that persons, like Matthead, are currently active on Poland-related articles ... we need all the spacecadets in this world just to compensate.Rex 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Naturally I STRONGLY OPPOSE the proposed bann.Rex 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
this sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" or "POINT counter-POINT / troll counter-troll" arithmetics is unhelpful, and of course very unwikilike. --dab (𒁳) 17:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah I see, and your 'the enemy of my friend is my enemy' is somehow morally superior? Please. It's fine with me that you don't like me Dbachman, absolutely fine, but keep it to yourself, and don't support 'users' like matthead to prove the proven.Rex 17:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I cannot conceive of any way to read my above comment as ad hominem, or supportive of Matthead. --dab (𒁳) 17:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
  • SpaceCadet's pov is irrelevant, the question is, does he make an arguable effort to establish compromise. I see nothing blatant enough to warrant a topic ban. These slow Crossen/Krosno type toponym-wars are annoying, but they occur spontaneously from driveby IPs anyway, SpaceCadet doesn't need his account for that. If we can show that a significant portion of SpaceCadet's efforts on Misplaced Pages go into such toponym-wars, we should impose a toponym revert ban, or 1RR parole, not a topic-ban. Such a specialized ban could help him contentrating on adding content or building consensus instead of obsessing over placenames. --dab (𒁳) 17:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Oppose ban the offense is way too minor for such a heavy action. German vs other language names (not only Polish, e.g. I know that the Dutch and Italians also have these issues with German editors) is a highly politicised issue. I am afraid nothing but banning all German and all Polish editors and IP's from these articles will help. Many good editors seem to get carried away, and I don't see SpaceDadet being other than the others. Hence no reason to ban him (alone) for this. Arnoutf 17:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

When I proposed this, I thought that this board had the main or only focus on long-term disruption rather than a recent and more urgent problem, and that bans can be appealed at the Arbitration Committee if a promising change of direction becomes obvious. Therefore I picked this board because I believed that this naming disruption was destined for eternity. I still believe in this eternity (yesterday, as ever ), though I agree with Banno that this here is going nowhere and apologize for the time this has all cost you. If there will be no end in sight and especially should it erupt in a more extreme way, I should like to take this to the Arbitration Committee, where also Dbachmann's suggestion could be considered and which should do justice to the concerns of it being a content dispute and Space Cadet in relative terms. I think it can be closed now. Sciurinæ 18:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Am I supposed to say something now? Well, I'm glad it's over, that's for sure. I wrote a beautiful response, just didn't enclose it early enough before the whole thing ended. I guess I'll save it for later, just in case. I will definitely try to learn from this experience. Happy editing, everyone! Space Cadet 20:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Catalonia closed

The above arbitration case has closed. Maurice27 (talk · contribs) is banned for 30 days, and the parties to the underlying content disputes are encouraged to continue with the normal consensus-building process to produce high-quality articles. For the Arbitration Committee, Picaroon (t) 02:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)



User:Malbrain

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Reason for block unclear; user unblocked

I have indefinitely blocked this user after seeing his bizarre work on National Labor Federation. Review and undo welcome. Tom Harrison 17:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something here, but indef seems a bit harsh. I didn't see anything that couldn't be solved by filing an RfC ... I could be wrong, though. Blueboy96 20:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I've reviewed the user's edits there. I've pulled up there last six edits to the article, before they were blocked:
These all look like misguided, yes, but good-faith edits by a user unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages policy. Just to point this out, misguided edits by new users are not uncommon. Yes, it's bizarre for them to be only working on one article, but I see no evidence of vandalism or intentional harm caused. In fact, I'm not even sure if this could warrant an RfC. It seems to me all the user needs in a push in the right direction and a little mentoring. With all due respect, Tom harrison, I'm not sure if it's necessary to indefinitely block an account unfamiliar with even how to write articles for, and I quote, "not here to write an encyclopedia". The thing is, if the user knew how and how not to contribute here, they'd be writing perfectly fine articles. I'm sorry if I come off as rough here, but blocking a user who has only started editing regularly on September 6th 8 days later is overreacting to the highest degree, especially not telling them how to use the {{unblock}} template and thus giving them no chance whatsoever at being unblocked. Sorry again if I sound a little abrasive, Arky 20:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
No problem, I posted to hear what people think. Tom Harrison 23:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I haven't examined the edits, so won't comment on the block, but there isn't really any need to tell a blocked user how to use {{unblock}}. If you're blocked, you'll get full instructions on your screen as soon as you try to edit. ElinorD (talk) 23:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)‎
Sorry, ElinorD. I was not aware of his. Cheers, Arky 23:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a puzzling block. The justification is not at all clear. So a community ban is unlikely. So far as I can see, there is no case here. Banno 22:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC) I have requested a second opinion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Second opinion on block for User:Malbrain. Banno 22:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Do what you think best, but please keep an eye on him if you unblock. Tom Harrison 23:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the user has been unblocked by User:Banno and I think that is appropriate. We can watchlist the page and keep an eye on him. --JodyB yak, yak, yak 01:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites opened

An Arbitration case, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites, has been opened. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, - Penwhale | 21:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


Ratify indefinite ban of Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Issue referred to Arbitration. MastCell 18:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

From AN/I. After an extensive block log and two very recent, lengthy blocks for edit warring and gaming the 3RR system, User:Giovanni33 has been blocked indefintely by User:Durova. His previous block on 15 August 2007 was reduced by User:El_C.

Never mind the quality feel the width - great judgment criteria. I suppose it's easier than bothering with the background details. The perm ban of an established editor is a serious matter that should not be decided just by the length of the block log - most of which is over a year old. Sophia 06:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right, we should just ignore his block log. Good call. Pablo Talk | Contributions 06:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a whole area of options between "ban" and "ignore". I am not advocating "ignore" but still fail to see why this particular incident has attracted so much attention. Check out WP:RfC and WP:RfAr and you will see there are many ways to skin a cat. Of course you can always shoot the poor thing and be done with it. Sophia 08:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it's not jsut one incident. It's the fourth edit warring incident in 2 months involving 4 differnt article and 4 different editors. All involved gaming the system. 3 of which ended in blocks and one of which ended in his 2RR pledge in July. His last block of two weeks was reduced by El_C for all the reasons that are being stated for why he should not receive an indefinite ban. Indeed, El_C is threatening to unilaterally reduce his block again. IT's clear that G33 has not taken his admonishments or his pledges to heart. --DHeyward 14:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Sarcasm will not get you the community ban you seek, Pablo. In fact, it increasingly appears to be a form of intimidation. Please try to be a bit more collegial, if not friendly, to your follow editors. Thanks. El_C 10:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Object to sanctions here while ANI discussion is ongoing. Let the dust settle and see what happens with Durova's offer. R. Baley 06:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Object - Length of block log is as much dependent on how quick admins are to block someone as to their actual actions. There are many users with just as extensive a history of edit warring and POV pushing as Giovanni33... several of them actively campaigning for this ban. That their block logs are not, in some cases, as lengthy as Giovanni33's demonstrates to me why such a criteria is a poor choice. Much (though not all) of the impetus for this ban is an effort by one set of edit warriors to banish their opponent. That isn't something we should ever encourage, and if it succeeds it should be applied equally to long term edit warriors of all stripes with similar histories... whether they have the block log to show for it or not. --CBD 07:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse indefinite ban for Giovanni33, or alternatively a 3 month block followed by a 1-year probation period allowing for 1RR only. Breaking 1RR during probation shall result in an automatic indef-ban. If this alternate suggestion is taken, force the resumption of Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story 2‎, which may be escalated into WP:RfArb if the mediation fails again. Those requesting for "parity" here should rather join the aforementioned mediation/arbitration on Mao/Jung Chang to pursue their content disputes. No sanctions are necessary for other editors at this point.--Endroit 14:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I was inclined to support a short-term ban from the whole project, to be followed by a permanent topic ban on all Asia-related articles. But after seeing the evidence of stalking, I have to reluctantly endorse an indefinite ban. Blueboy96 14:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Stalking?????? No one is actually taking that one seriously as it's absurd and an accusation put out by the editor who Gio was in conflict with. Sophia 14:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
That was me, providing the diff's at ANI. I don't believe I ever was in a conflict with Giovanni33. Do you have any proof of it, Sophia?--Endroit 14:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It takes two to edit-war; it seems unfair to indef-ban one side in a war (particularly when it's the opposing side in this case that actually violated 3RR). This seems to be another case of a double standard being imposed by the ruling clique. *Dan T.* 14:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Object. Duplicating an ongoing discussion at ANI here is a bad idea, and this discussion was only started after it become obvious that there was not consensus for an indefinite ban at ANI. On his talk page, after being prompted by Durova, Giovanni (following others before him) has proposed alternate remedies of 1RR probation or a topic ban on Mao related articles (with both remedies to be in effect for himself and the editor he edit warred with). Let's pursue those options for now and keep the discussion in the place which it began. I'd rather not even comment here and lend credence to this thread, but I don't want a few editors who have been in content disputes with Giovanni in the past to do an end-around on the dialogue that is already happening.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse. The behavior of other users should also be looked into, but that doesn't excuse Giovanni33. A fairly lengthy ban (at least 6 months) would be my second choice, though still acceptable. Chaz 17:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Other solutions should be tried before an end-all-be-all indefinite block. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Agree with many here, a contributing editor should not be blocked, especially after showing such an ability to improve in bahavior. If an admin finds themself loosing patience, perhaps they should step back, patience is required to deal with situations. Their proposal, Giovanni33 that is, seems to be the best implementation to avoiding further edit warring over the issue. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33's offer

Reposted from user talk:

:Thanks for your offer and being amicable. For the good of the project, I propose a 1RR limit for myself and John Smiths as fair. I self imposed a 2 RR for myself, and only went to 3 when I saw what he was pushing. I'll happily go to 1 revert as a limit for a proposed lenght of time as is agreed per consensus (1 year, 6 months?), with the condition that the same applies to the other editor in these edit wars with me, who has been reverting in excess of what I have been doing over several articles (more than myself). Since this ANI is considering both of us (or should be, per the 3RR report), its apropos that both are dealt with in a similar manner with a solution that benefits the project. It would also dispel appearances of being one-side, unfair, etc.Giovanni33 03:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a 2nd solution that I think would be better for WP: a topic ban on Mao related articles--but again for both parties. The edit wars all center around the Jung Chang book and Mao's China, and I'd be happy to accept a topic ban on these articles provided John Smiths included, as well. This would be my first choice, and I think a better solution as it would end the edit wars period, instead of slowing them down (I can see John Smith doing 1 revert a day, and this would not a real solution).Giovanni33 03:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Both of these suggestions include reciprocal sanctions on another editor. I would really need to see evidence in support of such a thing before backing that idea, but I have an alternative proposal: this type of remedy fits within the scope of community enforceable mediation where two editors can come together and agree to binding remedies upon themselves. If John Smith is agreeable, I propose a limited unblock of Giovanni33 for the exclusive purpose of community enforceable mediation, which would last until CEM concludes or for one month: if no agreement is forthcoming by that deadline I'd refer to arbitration (shifting the limited unblock to arbitration). This comes with no automatic limitation on John Smith's editing privileges, although I or any other administrator may take action as appropriate. Durova 17:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed it would be best for all concerned if the two can reach a settlement between themselves. If this fails, actions with respect to Giovanni33 and John Smith should each be considered on their individual merits. Raymond Arritt 17:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Option One proposed by Gio seems more favourable to me. As someone who have seen the work of both editors, I know that they have valuable contributions. Only they need to be more willing to give-and-take when they disagree. But I have a question for this Option One - would it be a 1RR/article/week? And is it limited to those articles they have edit warred over? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The idea of community enforceable mediation floated by Durova sounds excellent to me, and is probably largely in line with the spirit of Giovanni's suggestions which seem to revolve around both parties agreeing to some wrongdoing, agreeing to dial down the level of conflict, and submitting to restrictions on their editing activities. Has User:John Smith's been contacted about this proposal? I think he is blocked now but it seems like it would be useful to bring him into the discussion via his talk page.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's and I have traded e-mails and had an online chat. He's preparing a proposal. I'll post here when it's ready. Durova 19:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment This was his pledge 6 weeks ago on a 3RR/edit warring transgression that went unblocked. A few weeks later, he was blocked again for edit warring with a different editor on a different article. That block was reduced by El_C. This weeks edit war was with yet a different editor, a different blocking admin and a different article. If the 2RR pledge didn't mean anything and his blocks keep getting reduced, why is their a belief that anything other that a long period of quiet reflection will produce a change in behaviour? --DHeyward 22:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment — This appears to be an effort by Giovanni33 to shirk responsibility by blaming it all on one user. However, Mongo and others were involved the last time, not John Smith's. I believe the admins from the other recent incidents need to be consulted to determine the appropriate action here. At least a 3-month block on Giovanni33 is in order, for his general disruptions, in addition to the WP:CEM suggested above by Durova.--Endroit 23:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's offer

This is longer so I'll link to it. Reactions and comments are welcome, and Giovanni33 may respond by talk page posts, e-mail, or chat. Durova 21:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's basically a rant, devoid of any introspection (in it, John Smith doesn't acknowledge his pov pushing of Changism for years). The proposal, if I could parse it, involves himself having some sort of revert advantage, that he promises not to use to his advantage. As a sign of good faith, he asks that his version in the dispute be retained. Feel free to stop me at any time. El_C 22:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, please do stop. I'm seeking an effective community solution here to avoid arbitration, which is where things will go if we can't achieve consensus. If there's something constructive to build upon please focus on that, or if there's nothing of value then please say so without placing additional strain on the discussion. Durova 23:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
If you're unwilling, or unable, to reach parity, which thus far seems to be the case, perhaps arbitration would be the best recourse. El_C 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I certainly am willing and able to reach parity if I see a good case that parity is appropriate. You're welcome to make such a case. Please offer evidence in a dry just-the-facts-ma'am presentation. Durova 23:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I just am not sure you are capable of being evenhanded, seeing that your first action will need to be justified in the result. El_C 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
If you need any evidence of my impartiality, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Agapetos angel where I was the sole defender of an editor whose ideology I abhorred. I simply don't accept the paradigm that it takes two to tango: I've seen enough editors where there was a primary antagonist, and it's a very commonplace tactic for a primary antagonist to invoke it takes two to tango in a bid for retributive action when sanctions appeared to be imminent. So I examine each instance separately and so far I'm not impressed by the direction that this conversation has taken: rather than a presentation of evidence for analysis and judgement this approaches challenges to my capacity for analysis and judgement. WP:AGF should weigh here. Please, if you have evidence to present for community discussion then do present it. Durova 01:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of your impressions, I object to you deciding the content end of an edit war that's been going on for years via clumsy action that obviously lacks consensus and is only supported by seemingly well-defined circles. El_C 03:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Reposting: I think Giovanni sees the world too politically and categorises people as being "with him", "against him" or "not involved". He also has trouble accepting that others may have a valid point and trying to find compromise that maybe he doesn't agree with but is a "halfway house" that can move things on. So whilst he was blocked, I would suggest we get a mediator (maybe 2-3) to chat things over with him every so often to see how he was feeling. I think he could do with a sort of "behavioural mentor", someone (or some people) to try to get him to be more flexible and less prone to just want to get what he initially thinks is right. If for some reason they thought he hadn't changed they could recommend he stay blocked, but generally they would be there to help him out.

After the X weeks/months were up, Giovanni would be allowed back. He would be put on 1-revert parole (either per article per week or week) for 6 months/1 year. If he started breaking the terms he would be indef blocked. Also if he was referred again by wikipedians for repeated disruptive behaviour even after the parole was up he might be indef blocked, though that would depend on how people felt at the time.

As for myself, I would re-assure Giovanni I wouldn't game his parole by agreeing not to get involved in articles he has edited and/or still edits which I have not edited. He would draw up a list of articles he is interested in that he thinks apply and we could agree them with someone like Durova. If I started reverting his changes on those articles we had agreed on, I would get a 72-hour ban.

In regards to the points we had been mediating, I would agree not to use my revert "advantage" to change them. In return he would agree to med-arb with three administrators who have not been involved in blocking/unblocking us, editing in our favours/against us, etc. I would suggest Durova (again as a very non-partisan admin) be chair admin, and if we couldn't agree on the other two she would find them herself. As a sign of good faith I would ask that Giovanni not try to change the recent edits I proposed to the lead of the Mao: The Unknown Story article - if he was not happy with them after he returned from his block he could ask they be included in the med-arb.

Some wikipedians sympathetic to Giovanni may think this proposal unfair, but I would point out that if we can't agree to a resolution the matter will go to arbitration, which will be long-winded and probably eventually ban Giovanni or otherwise censor him more severely. There is no reason why we can't get to the position where Giovanni never edit-wars again, but I think a bit of "tough love" is is required here to do that. John Smith's 20:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

First you link to it, now you're "reposting it"? Is this some sort of rhetorical device? It looks like it serves to drown the discussion. El_C 23:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
To be candid, your comment looked like an attempt at poisoning the well. I'm not attempting any sort of rhetoric: I have no dog in this race. I'd just rather achieve a workable consensus if it's possible to do that without referring the matter to WP:RFAR. Durova 23:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I am still talking about parity. I find tou are not being responsive about this limited point. El_C 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
My view of parity is that we consider each case equally dispassionately on its own merits. Giovanni33's case should be considered on its merits, including present behavior in light of prior context. John Smith's case should be considered on its merits, including present behavior in light of prior context. The "if you block one of mine, then we have to block one of theirs" approach uncomfortably resembles tit-for-tat rather than true parity. Raymond Arritt 00:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Block-log and political-derived prejudice appears headed to skew any notions of fair review, leading to such distortion. El_C 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
My worry is that many seem to not be reading the block log correctly, citing each line as a seperate block, and ignoring the time many of those took place and the long stretch between them. They should also take note of who the last blocking admin was back in 2006, and who seems to be advocating the block now. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni's remedies seem to be first more fair, limiting one user and not the other, is just telling one its ok to war and the other its not. What prevents the one not limited from continuing to drown the other out? I am more in favor of the first then the second, however if the belief is the topic and their views, then 2 should be studied. I agree with others, John seems to just be ranting, not actually making a solid proposal. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a worry that John Smith is getting off lightly while Giovanni33 bears the brunt of the punishment. Since this is a CSN notice about Giovanni33, this would be appropriate. JS has a much less impressive block log. I have not seen him reported on ANI or CSN previously as Giovanni33 has. He has not violated other rules such as gaming the system and sockpuppet policies as Giovanni33. In fact, he received one the harshest 3RR penalties from El_C given his block log and he chose to block JS but not Giovanni for edit warring on April 4 (yes they were both involved, it was the same article). It's clear that El_C has a conflict with JS and feels some affinity for Giovanni33 as he has inly blocked JS and only unblocked Giovanni33. Bringing JS into Giovanni33's CSN is more of a red herring. This is about Giovanni33's inability to act civillly within the bounds of consensus and the community adopted policies such as 3RR, Sockpuppetry and Gaming the System and his inability to live up to his previous commitments and promises. --DHeyward 02:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You really should try not to accuse admins of anything unless you are going to stand by them and report it properly. Slinging mud is not appropriate. --SevenOfDiamonds 03:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think I accused anybody of anything here except Giovanni33 who should be blocked indefinitely. I know of no policy that El_C has broken so there is nothing to report. It certainly would be wildly inappropriate for him to use his admin tools to change the blocks of either Giovanni33 or John Smith as he has a history with both of them. --DHeyward 03:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration request opened

This thread can close now. It appears unlikely to generate consensus so I've taken it to arbitration and given limited unblocks for both John Smith's and Giovanni33 for the purpose of participation there. Other editors may wish to revise and expand the lists of involved parties and dispute resolution attempts. Durova 03:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Proposing Community Ban on User:Gold heart

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The community consensus here is clearly to have Gold heart banned. It is highly unlikely that any administrator would be willing to unblock him, as the behavior demonstrated by the user is beyond unacceptable. As such, Gold heart can be considered banned. Acalamari 21:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing a community ban for User:Gold heart, per suggestion of Fred Bauder in "The Troubles" ArbCom case. He was a somewhat good user, who suddenly decided to retire from Misplaced Pages and scrambled his password, but when The Troubles Arbcom case started. he activated an up till then dormant account, User:Thepiper and attempted to contribute to that case (without letting folks know that he was Gold heart). He also created another account, User:Gold Heart (Temp), which violates WP:SOCK and ArbCom Rules. This started a downward spiral which continues to the present time.

Recently, this user has created several sockpuppets to harass User:Alison, both on and off-Misplaced Pages. This harassment included outing of personal, medical data about Alison on Misplaced Pages, and the use of anonymous remailers to harass her off-Misplaced Pages. You can see his on-Misplaced Pages harassment from the contributions of sockpuppets Pronterra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Perolla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Alison has taken the incredibly brave step of stepping forward to show her harrasser for what he is at User_talk:Alison#Public_statement. Now it's time for the rest of us to step forward. I call for a community ban on User:Gold heart and all accounts that they may possess. SirFozzie 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: In order to consider a community ban, we will need diffs to the different allegations that you are making against User:Gold heart. Without seeing links to the actual evidence to these charges (and not a general link, but specific diffs), I personally will not support any ban.--Alabamaboy 23:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Pronterra Perella , , and trying to explain why he's doing this, using another sock account today, SirFozzie 23:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Endorse witch burning. His trolling using multiple sockpuppets during the ArbCom was a very unwelcome distraction to begin with, and now his sinister behaviour and harassment are becoming totally unacceptable. One Night In Hackney303 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I want to see evidence that these accounts are the same editor. If so, then I'd support. Has there been a checkuser? Durova 23:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The user has confirmed that they were User:Gold heart . When I brought this up with ArbCom member Fred Bauder privately off-wiki (due to the sensitive nature of the issue, he confirmed that they were the same account but it would be hard to block the range, because the IP changes). Fred Bauder then directed me over here in the ArbCom case , and suggested an indefinite community ban would be in order here. SirFozzie 23:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

All right then, I endorse it. Sockpuppetry to confound an arbitration case is a very serious matter, and the accusations against another editor are nontrivial. Durova 00:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Endorse I see no reason not to. Abusing multiple accounts, trolling in an ArbCom case, the positive checkuser request, and the on and off-wiki harassment to an editor in good standing provide no alternative. Arky 02:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Endorse community ban absolutely. I found that comment posted to RfARB (link 42 posted above by Fozzie) declaring his love genuinely disturbing. The sooner this gets chopped off at the knees, the better. There is no reason whatsoever for us to allow a user to use Misplaced Pages to harass and stalk one of our editors. I have reblocked Gold Heart (Temp), Gold heart, Perolla with email disabled (partly to disable email and partly to put the blocks in a third party's name rather than his victim's name). This will have no affect on his ability to email Alison, but at least will prevent him from abusing the email function to harass anyone else. Sarah 04:33, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban. What this user has done is unforgivable. Sam Blacketer 13:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strongest possible support The conduct demonstrated is unacceptable in any civilized online community. Would advise contacting his ISP as well, in light of the serious off-wiki abuse. Blueboy96 14:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban. Wholly unacceptable behaviour. Worth checking other wikis too. - Kittybrewster (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse community ban, per Sarah. Second chances are for people who do a bit of edit warring or POV pushing, or get a bit disruptive. They are NOT for people who start real life harassment of our contributors. ElinorD (talk) 14:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban. I'm not familiar with the background to this dispute, but the comments by the user (and his sockpuppets) about Alison's medical history certainly do seem unacceptable. Lots of Wikipedians have medical, personal or emotional issues of various kinds in their lives; publicising details like that about someone else in an attempt to discredit them is not acceptable. As such, I endorse the proposed ban, based solely on the comments made towards Alison; I'm not factoring in the behaviour on the arbitration case, since I don't know the issues involved. Walton 14:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong endorse ban. Blatant sockpuppetry, and now harassment of an editor including breach of privacy: there's no wiggle room here. Away with him, and I sincerely hope that he takes time to seek whatever help he needs. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Unquestionably endorse ban. This user's behavior has been absolutely despicable. --krimpet⟲ 17:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban now that links to the evidence were provided. This behavior should not be tolerated.--Alabamaboy 17:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban - completely unacceptable behavior. Cheers, Lights (♣ • ♦) 18:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban - For all the reasons stated above. Serious abuse on numerous fronts. - Crockspot 18:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I move to close--is there any objection? I see it snowing outside ... granted, it's been open a day, but I can't see why anyone would ever unblock this guy. Blueboy96 19:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban, and second motion to close, per WP:SNOW and the unacceptable behaviour of the subject. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban and motion to close. I was the target of Gold Heart's socks at WP:RfAr. Those were ridiculous enough to be little more than a distraction. However, after his account was publically revealed to be a sock, he emailed with with an apology and explained that his actions at ArbCom were more to do with his issues with Alison than myself. That he will go so far to create socks to attack me just because I happened to support Alison's actions is both scary and indicative of the lengths this editor will go. Lets put an end to this now. Rockpocket 19:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Let it Snow!

  • Pile-on support I know this is closed, but I just wanted to register my support of Alison. She's a great admin and crap like this won't be allowed. Of course it's snowing. . .as well it should be. Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow. R. Baley 07:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to ban User:Space Cadet from German-Polish-related topics

Space Cadet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been disruptive for about five years now in this field. Notified, he seemed willing to change ( ). Some days on, however, a single-purpose account appeared in a WP:POINT campaign, to whom Space Cadet could not help but express his approval and vowed to help himself after his break (). Now he has notified me that his break was over and violated the Gdansk-vote twice again ( ). I suggest he has long exhausted the community's patience regarding German-Polish-related areas. Sciurinæ 01:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a more accurate description of the problem is: for five years, Space Cadet has held a completely different POV from Sciurinæ. The last time I checked, we don't ban people for that. I don't see any revert warring or incivility in Cadet's recent edits you linked above, so there is no serious disruption to consider.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
You are clearly presenting a straw man argument, because you claim that the reason for banning him would be my different POV when in fact I want him banned from Polish-German related topics given his obvious, recurring and never-ending violations of the Gdansk/Vote. You also seem to present an ad hominem argument, because you play down my presentation by pointing out my different POV. I did not even cite revert warring in the two edits (though actually it is on a slow level), nor did I cite incivility, though incivility, too, is an issue (eg against interfering admins for blocking User:Molobo or this more recently one in which an admin just tried to mediate in some Gdansk-related struggle ). It's about a topical ban and not a block for incivility. Sciurinæ 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose ban. I see no evidence of recent disruption in the cited links. In the first of the two "incivility" diffs provided (), it looked like the phrase "what an idiot" was referring self-deprecatingly to himself, not to another user. In the second instance () I agree that he was being uncivil towards Anthony.bradbury (a respected admin), but the incivility wasn't severe enough to merit a block or ban, IMO. Although I understand that this WP:LAME content dispute has been going on a very long time, I don't see any reason to ban this user. I may change my mind if any evidence of actual recent disruption is provided. Walton 18:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Space cadet has never been blocked. This is not a place to continue disputes. Take it elsewhere. Banno 21:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually Space Cadet has been blocked six times. The most recent was in April 2006. I'd like to see a compelling argument that this is not an extension of a POV dispute. Durova 00:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe banning Spacer is out of question. I must say that it has been a while since I've seen a useful edit from him (if ever). Most of edits that I have seen was adding a Polish name to an article and nothing else often without a good reason. He occasionally revert warred too but never even close to the amount of grief brought to this project by Piotrus' most important protegé Molobo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) after the latter's last return from a one year block alone. Also, Spacer is good natured, friendly and sometimes admits to past mistakes and even apologizes for them. I would like to see doing some useful activity but not doing anything useful on the project is by itself not a reason for a ban. --Irpen 01:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
It took me a second reading to understand the irony. :-) Sciurinæ 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
For Durova: The Gdansk vote was the climax of a long-runing POV dispute, to finish it after all was said time and time again. It was intended as a community decision and most voted for its enforcement (including Piotrus), meaning its persistent violation was to be considered an act of vandalism. There was enforcement long ago, most decisively in the cases of Halibut (WP:POINT campaign) and of Molobo ( ). Even so, that was discouraging due to wheel warring by Piotrus ( respectively), so that now after the last attempt of enforcement (wheel warring over Molobo), as far as I'm aware, enforcement through blocking other than 3RR has completely died out. Although Piotrus had certainly been inexperienced as an admin then and you can't bear him any grudge for that now, it is unbelievable that he has managed to make this here look like a content or POV dispute (and "we don't ban people for that" -- Piotrus) rather than someone actively resisting a community's decision. This creeping and never-ending campaign of Space Cadet's five-year-long disruption finally has to be tackled and if that's not the way, then what is? Revert warring against "vandalism"? Or another pointless arbitration case featuring Piotrus? Of all choices, this one seemed to me to be the most rational. Please reconsider it. Sciurinæ 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
To Irpen: if you can't recall seeing a useful edit from this person and perhaps never have seen one, then why oppose banning? Each editor's contributions (or lack thereof) stand on their own merits. Congenial people who aren't building an encyclopedia can easily find a niche at MySpace or some other site. Durova 05:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Durova, I am simply a humanist. I don't like harsh measures without a very strong reason. Besides, banning editors for not being useful while tolerating editors who clearly bring more harm than good to the project just does not make much sense. Nationalist extremist POV-pushers roam freely wasting our potentially productive time on dealing with their edits or endless "discussions" about nonsense at the talk pages and in order to get banned they have to make a mistake of also attacking users in especially horrific ways. Or violate 3RR repeatedly (10 times or so and 3RR reports are not even handled these days). Others spend entire days chatting on IRC, hardly make content edits at all (some none at all) but join every possible policy debate with comments that are completely detached from real Misplaced Pages needs (because someone who does not edit cannot understand the encyclopedia's concerns.) We do not ban those, do we? Sad but true. And here is just a guy who occasionally needs to be reverted. Big deal! If we are serious about improving the project through community sanctions, it is only sensible to start with much more grievously users. --Irpen 07:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Then by all means raise those serious cases in separate proposals. At AFD there's a term for that argument, and although I don't mean it disparagingly toward the individual as opposed to the behavior, that class of argument is known as WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. I wish I had a more polite term for it in this context, but it carries no more weight here than it does there. Durova 07:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Durova, I am not only a great humanist but also a sober realist :) Do you really believe any of the editors like I named above are bannable through this board? I mean some names popped at the top of your head when I gave some typical descriptions, right? Yes, you guessed right. And that one too.
Now, do you believe those users we thought of are bannable through this board? Realistically? And the reasons why it is impossible have nothing to do with their not being harmful enough. So, why waste time? I mean, if you insist that my pessimism is unwarranted I can try and initiated a couple of threads but both of us know that this is futile. So, why start from Spacer? This is simply unfair. When he adds Kijow or Krolewiec once in a while, I would revert him and not see him for another 3 months. But some of his talk page remarks are truly funny and none of them are offensive. --Irpen 08:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The activity of the Piotrus-Space Cadet edit-warring tandem was discussed as part of a recent ArbCom case. One of the key disruptors during the infamous Gdanzig dispute several years ago, Space Cadet has evolved into a "little helper" of Piotrus in his never-ending POV disputes with Lithuanians and Germans, whose occasional revert may prove inesteemable for Molobo and whose fraudulent edit summaries are still mildly amusing. His activity is not nearly as disruptive as that of his comrades-in-arms, so I think that a suspension of his editing rights may be premature at this juncture. --Ghirla 10:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The ArbCom found no wrongdoings on my part, but Ghirlandajo still goes around various boards and discussion pages repeating accusations discarded by ArbCom. I'd appreciate if the community would put an end to smearing my name by Ghirlandajo.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

As someone who doesn't share the opinion that neutrality can miraculously emerge from opposing sides pushing their respective POV, I strongly support the motion to take "official" steps against Space Cadet's Poland-related activities. Look at it this way: Diverting Space Cadet's attention to other topics for some time might actually help him demonstrate to the community that he is not a nationalist one-trick troll, but intends and is able to make useful objective contributions to Misplaced Pages. Personally, I don't suppose he would succeed, but he deserves the benefit of the doubt as much as anyone. --Thorsten1 15:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

What is being asked is that we set up an agreement according to which, if Space Cadet edits certain pages, he will be blocked. So here are the important questions:

  • Are there any administrators willing to implement such a block?
  • If such a block were implemented, are there administrators who would disagree, and unblock?

If no admin is willing to implement the block - I certainly would not on the basis of the info presented here - then we can close this discussion. Banno 22:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


  • Support ban of Space Cadet as his long time record speaks for itself - and against him. Recently, Olessi made some suggestions regarding categorization of Germans/German-speakers at German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I've responded that the introduction of new categories trying to describe regions is useless as they will get removed from articles anyway by certain users, giving seven recent diffs of Space Cadet removing the Category:German natives of East Prussia (No East Prussia before 1772) from persons like Frederick I of Prussia who were born in Königsberg (important Królewiec according to Space Cadet). Apart from biographies, he also "restores POV" to the articles on places like Frauenburg, which is called Frombork only since 1945, but not during the Copernican era . Denying centuries of German history by pushing Polish POV over it is Space Cadet's only agenda. As long as he is around, development of the German-Polish-related topics on Misplaced Pages will stagnate as his behaviour is driving away good faith editors. After five years, it should be him who is made to go elsewhere, e.g. to the Wiki articles covering central oder modern Poland. -- Matthead      O       00:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You can support it all you like. Unless an admin is willing to impliment it, it's dead in the water. Banno 00:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess "Community sanction noticeboard" means that if the Community agrees on a sanction, and it is violated, and evidence is presented, then one of the admins will enforce it. "Load sharing" seems to work in other admins business, too. Do you really expect that first an admin has to be identified before the pros and cons of a sanction may be discussed? BTW: no violation of the community sanction, no admin needed. It can be that simple. -- Matthead      O       01:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you should have a look at the policy. The "community topic ban" idea is fraught. It is not obvious that you have a consensus here, I doubt that any admin would block on the evidence presented. Hence my question - is there an admin willing to block on this evidence? (I hope not, since the evidence presented is years old). If so, then this can proceed. If not, then let's close this discussion. Banno 02:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
If the community agrees on a remedy then I am willing to enforce it. So far I'm neutral on the merits of the proposal. Furthermore, any editor can report evidence of a topic ban violation to WP:ANI and get action. The question isn't dearth of administrators willing to act; the question is whether consensus exists for action. I am categorically disregarding attempts to establish linkage between this discussion and other editors. We all know the Eastern European topics are a mess, but no heap ever got sorted by wailing about what a mess it is. One chooses a particular part of the problem and solves it, then moves on to the next part. Durova 02:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose ban. There are many POVed editors in Poland-German area. But after the great Danzig/Gdansk vote, the area is relatively peaceful. As I explained above, to ban one semi-active editor from one side of the dispute would be petty and hardly constructive. I am not surprised to find that POV-pushers from one side would like to see the others banned - but this is not how this project works; we are supposed to reach consensus by discussions and meet mid-way, not try to ban the other side. Lastly: it would be nice if somebody could actually show that Cadet has violated the Gdansk Vote - citing the relevant part of the vote and relevant diff.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, now you are getting ridiculous. Is the "Poland-German area" and the Gdansk vote again extended to the West bank of the Rhine? Next stop, French-Polish border? -- Matthead      O       04:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Ekhm, Matthead, why do you give us diffs from non-Space Cadet editor and from 2005, too? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
ROFL, although this underscores my longstanding opinion that community sanction consensus should be established by uninvolved editors rather than by partisans to a dispute. BTW what's Polish for Koblenz? Durova 05:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Good point: so far all critics of Space Cadet are the users who have disagreed with him in the content dispute. Considering Cadet's inactivity in past months, that doesn't seem fair.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I came across with Space Cadet contributions back in 2006 in regards of his possible sock puppetry case involving User:Tirid Tirid . That draw my additional attention was his provocative edit summaries as further events shows such practice is carried on till recent . I made impression that attempts to discuss issues with this contributor is hard as he tries to derail them with flaming or irrelevancies . However at that time I did not regard his contributions as extremely disruptive, but Sciurinæ presentation of overall picture of his offensives made me evaluate his behavior more strictly. Regular attempts to go against consensus can be seen as disruptive and neglect towards WP:POINT, which disregard I criticize in other cases too, is especially frustrating. However I do knot know if a ban is a solution here, in other hand I would voice support for additional supervision of Cadet’s future conducts by neutral administrator. M.K. 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose ban. Space Cadet is relentless in long term dealing with historical revisionism and equivocation, thus providing a much needed balance to other POV warriors who hold views opposing to his. Interestingly enough, Space Cadet gets occasional support from the German editors as well, not only from the Polish ones. Please take a look at this series of quick reverts. Matthead, Space Cadet, Matthead, and finally, Rex Germanus,. --Poeticbent talk 15:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
As my name just popped up, I thought I'd join the discussion. First of all, despite what's implied above, I'm not a German editor, though I understand that my user:name might act as a false friend. Talking about 'false friends', I would like to warn everyone (especially the admins and persons unfamiliar with him) do not trust the person behind the 'EU' pic. ("     O      ") I can assure all of you (and a simple look at his contributions will say more than what I'm about to write) that the thing on this persons mind is not the EU, but to infect wikipedia with Pro-German and Anti-Polish nationalistic POV. So naturally he's against a Polish user like Spacecadet, and will try to do everything to get him banned (as proven by his numerous reactions above). I'll say this. Yes, Spacecadet is pro-polish, and yes, a little less Polish POV wouldn't hurt, but given that persons, like Matthead, are currently active on Poland-related articles ... we need all the spacecadets in this world just to compensate.Rex 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Naturally I STRONGLY OPPOSE the proposed bann.Rex 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
this sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" or "POINT counter-POINT / troll counter-troll" arithmetics is unhelpful, and of course very unwikilike. --dab (𒁳) 17:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah I see, and your 'the enemy of my friend is my enemy' is somehow morally superior? Please. It's fine with me that you don't like me Dbachman, absolutely fine, but keep it to yourself, and don't support 'users' like matthead to prove the proven.Rex 17:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I cannot conceive of any way to read my above comment as ad hominem, or supportive of Matthead. --dab (𒁳) 17:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
  • SpaceCadet's pov is irrelevant, the question is, does he make an arguable effort to establish compromise. I see nothing blatant enough to warrant a topic ban. These slow Crossen/Krosno type toponym-wars are annoying, but they occur spontaneously from driveby IPs anyway, SpaceCadet doesn't need his account for that. If we can show that a significant portion of SpaceCadet's efforts on Misplaced Pages go into such toponym-wars, we should impose a toponym revert ban, or 1RR parole, not a topic-ban. Such a specialized ban could help him contentrating on adding content or building consensus instead of obsessing over placenames. --dab (𒁳) 17:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Oppose ban the offense is way too minor for such a heavy action. German vs other language names (not only Polish, e.g. I know that the Dutch and Italians also have these issues with German editors) is a highly politicised issue. I am afraid nothing but banning all German and all Polish editors and IP's from these articles will help. Many good editors seem to get carried away, and I don't see SpaceDadet being other than the others. Hence no reason to ban him (alone) for this. Arnoutf 17:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

When I proposed this, I thought that this board had the main or only focus on long-term disruption rather than a recent and more urgent problem, and that bans can be appealed at the Arbitration Committee if a promising change of direction becomes obvious. Therefore I picked this board because I believed that this naming disruption was destined for eternity. I still believe in this eternity (yesterday, as ever ), though I agree with Banno that this here is going nowhere and apologize for the time this has all cost you. If there will be no end in sight and especially should it erupt in a more extreme way, I should like to take this to the Arbitration Committee, where also Dbachmann's suggestion could be considered and which should do justice to the concerns of it being a content dispute and Space Cadet in relative terms. I think it can be closed now. Sciurinæ 18:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Am I supposed to say something now? Well, I'm glad it's over, that's for sure. I wrote a beautiful response, just didn't enclose it early enough before the whole thing ended. I guess I'll save it for later, just in case. I will definitely try to learn from this experience. Happy editing, everyone! Space Cadet 20:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Catalonia closed

The above arbitration case has closed. Maurice27 (talk · contribs) is banned for 30 days, and the parties to the underlying content disputes are encouraged to continue with the normal consensus-building process to produce high-quality articles. For the Arbitration Committee, Picaroon (t) 02:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)